Mini 1792: Baccano! Mafia [Game Over]

[Thor665]

Read the setup, this looks kind of amusing.

Looks like in a perfect world the assassin guy should claim, act pro town, and help bag one Mafia in exchange for getting to eat the King dude, yeah?
That would make only Mafia the losers - and allow two of three factions their win.
Has the assassin claimed yet?
Also, why are we lynching camntsuki? I wanna be able to leap on that wagon super quick to look pro town by sheeping someone's case.

[Thor665]

L-1 47 hours from game start. :/

Why does that concern you?

L-2, let's wait a bit.

~Bee

What are we waiting for?

In my opinion Camntsuki has done nothing but shirk off Fate's accusations and than proceed to be hooked by Flores. By ducking out when Fate was attacking him he was able to quickly shift the doubt that Fate had cast onto Flores again who in my opinion has a townread until future thought and/or slipups.

Why is Flores so towny to you?
Also, how did Camntsuki shift attention other than just by not being around (basically I'm asking, how do you know it was an intentional strategy as opposed to 'derp, I'mma lurking!'?)

[Thor665]

At least get camn back here. *shrug* I don't actually see any sort of case on him, but it's D1, that like...as strong of a case as you can expect.

Who would you rather we lynch and why?

[Thor665]

What are we waiting for?

It is in the town's best interest to use day one to work on the case. Nothing good comes from having shortened days as this is when we can work out the game

Okay.
What do you think we should work out?

[Thor665]

This...isn't the worst of plans actually!

Of course it isn't, I'm sexy and have a big beard.

I remain suspicious of the entire Flors situation. I am aware that is not a popular opinion, however I remain that his posts feel scummy to me.

Why do they feel scummy?

Yet, I support the Camn lynch. I just worry about rushing the flow of the game.

Is there anyone thus far whose lynch you would oppose?

So far he is the only one that I can fully see being possible scum because aside from I think 2 serious posts the rest of his have been emotes and shrugging off what people have told him.

So your concept is fail at scumhunting = worthy of lynch.
That sounds like a valid case to me.

pedit: I personally thought that Flores made a scumslip at the begining along with some other people however than the mod confirmed that there was a mistake and so he actually didn't know the identity of Maiza at the time. However although this confirms he isn't assassin it also doesn't confirm he isn't scum I just think that there isn't enough proof yet so in my mind he there isn't much sketchy about him and it just so happened there was an unfortunate mistake. Regarding the contradiction I honestly view it as a stupid mistake on his part where he got defensive and than afterwards realized that he doesn't have the ID on Maiza and than messaged the mod to get it straightened out.

So, basically, you don't see any value in a FLores lynch at this stage.

With Camntsuki even when he was around he didn't make many serious posts often just quoting others and adding emotes even when those quotes were staight accusations from others. Aside from his points on Flores he hasn't really done any I can think of as pro town

Did his attack on Flores look townish though? You seem to be suggesting that here.

Also would it be anti town to help the assassin eat Maiza or would it just be a pro strat so that 2/3 groups can win?

It would straight up not be anti town.

Like, if it was 5 alive, King, Assassin, and 1 Mafia - it would be straight up pro town for the King to openly claim and allow the Assassin to eat him.

Also, quite frankly, it is pro-assassin and pro-town for the assassin to claim. The assassin doesn't care about the Mafia, since they can't hurt him, in fact his primary goal is just getting to a situation he can eat the King. The King wants Mafia to lose, but there is nothing in his role that prevents him from winning if eaten - so if he can kill Mafia and be eaten or not eaten it is all the same to him. An Assassin early claim allows town to trust the Assassin's scumhunting, prevents the Assassin from fear of lynch (wherein a late Assassin claim does not) and functionally serves as an Innocent Child for town.

An early Assassin claim would be anti-scum, and make no other difference to the game as far as I can see - because town has better things to do than lynch Assassin.

[Thor665]

Let's see, I suppose the only theory negative to the plan is scum might waste a shot shooting the Assassin...
But I'm not seeing that as equivalent to the gain of taking a lynch off the table immediately.

[Thor665]

Yeah, I'd rather have the Assassin in the open and accept the extra scum kill rather than deal with an Assassin trying to stay under the radar and thinking not hunting for scum is worth much.

[Thor665]

Why would we not just lynch the assassin once he outs? Keep our immune IC alive?

Because, at the end of the day, all the King is good for is maybe magically absorbing a shot from scum and, oh gosh, Mafia already know who that player is so...y'know, all the King is for us is a body.

The merit in Thors suggestion is NOT in the idea of an early claim of the assassin. That part is unnecessary, and distinctly anti-town.

You could argue it is unnecessary - but it is distinctly not anti-town in any way at all. Unless you want to share a deep insight with me?

The value is in considering that the Assassin CAN act in a pro-town fashion, and thus shouldn't be considered an auto-lynch, but rather, a free clear, the same way Maiza is.

Yeah, but the clear is more valuable.

What would you rather have in a game - an Innocent Child who is kill immune, or a BP?
Take your time.

I don't even care if he scumhunts brilliantly (though I think he should regardless) I just want one less body to sweat to make scumhunting even more focused from Day 1.

Why does an outed Silizard actually give a crap about scumhunting again?

Fear of being lynched if he sucks.
Also, by early claim and effort - he avoids getting to the point in the game where town wants to lynch him due to fear of him axing the King at a mylo situation.

[Thor665]

Oooh, also, an outed Assassin helps any other PRs town may or may not have target more accurately.
Docs/Jailkeeps could avoid wasting time protecting/jailing him.
Trackers/Cops could duck wasting an investigate.

It is such a fething pro-town plan it bleeds.

[Thor665]

Do you know what also is super proTown? Mafia outing their partner. Doesn't mean it happens though

Yeah, but the Assassin doesn't have a "kill all town" wincon, does he?
Apples and oranges.

Wait, Thor did we confirm that scum know who Maiza is or are you just assuming, because I don't remember us knowing unless I missed something.

I looked at this.

By default, each player's role PM will inform them that you possess the "Maiza Avaro" flavor.

Seems pretty durn likely Mafia is in the informed group moreso than an uninformed group that may or may not exist.
Also, with the Mod publicly confirming that Florestan's role should know who the King is - I would be willing to wager any amount of money you wish that Mafia is informed.
The King role is BP to prevent the Assassin from auto losing due to a Mafia kill.
The King is informed to the town to prevent the Assassin from auto losing if town/mafia lynches the King.
Otherwise the Assassin role would be a "screw you" role - I don't think a "screw you" role exists in this game - do you?

So the King will never absorb a Mafia kill.
The Assassin might.
A wise King would want to allow themselves to be dead prior to mylo to prevent a sudden Assassin guess from losing town the game.
Ergo - early Assassin reveal and a day or two of honest scumhunting from them should equate to King reveal and eating to aid town win con.

It's anti town because it kills off an extra town member giving mafia the advantage.

I would trade one town for a confirmed non-scum slot without the waste of a lynch any day prior to mylo/lylo.
You...wouldn't?
I mean, that's the point of the entire lynch process "are you scumz!?!" that's all we lynch for - that's the point, that's how we win.
Having a slot that is not scumz and this being known is pro-town.
Haing a slot that town PRs know for a fact they can safely ignore is pro-town.
Having a town die is "pro-scum" but the above benefits outweigh that to such a degree it is silly to me that people are debating it.
Are you Mafia or an Assassin who doesn't get it?

Ario is town.

[Thor665]

Why do you think that Mafia would get a benefit while the King is alive?

[Thor665]

Why do you think that Mafia would get a benefit while the King is alive?

In twilight after being lynched the mafia could just reveal who the king is. I agree with you without a doubt the mafia know but considering how easy it is for the mafia to out the King I can't see them not having some form of encouragement to keep them hidden.

~Bee

That just sounds like an advantage to Mafia in getting the King dead, which increases my suggestion that Assassin outing and allying with town earlier is better for town.
After a Mafia dies - town should be fine with a Dead King and a winning Assassin in any case.

You haven't seen anyone interacting about anything other than mechanics?

No, and I do have some reads (which I've already espoused), but the constant mechanics discussion are super not telling. I want to call the people doing it scum by ILOA but town are definitely doing it as well so that doesn't work.

What are you planning to do to get conversation back on scumhunting as opposed to complaining about how people are discussing an aspect of the game you don't think is helpful but which (unlike complaining) is at least proactive

Here, let me help you - I called Ario town; do you agree or disagree?
Fate dropped his Camn push like a wet blanket to push on WhiteLight - does that give you a positive or negative vibe on Fate's alignment?

[Thor665]

I find scum often just dwell on mechanics posts for annoyingly long on d1 to seem like they're town without actually hunting.

Do you find me to be doing this.
Because people are kind of saying that I am - but I'm curious why they think this, as I'm not.

[Thor665]

I mean - for ease of your assessment;

I've been in the game less than 24 hours.
At the time you said that I had 12 posts in the game.
Not all of my posts were about mechanics, though I'll agree 9 of them had mechanic based thoughts or questions in them, though about half of those also had non-mechanic based thoughts in them.

Describe how that is "annoyingly long" at your leisure.
I'll wait.

[Thor665]

So your issue isn't that I talked about mechanics - it's that I made long posts about it and/or that an unreasonable percentage of my posts (all in less than 24 hours of joining the game) were about setup other than having brilliant scumhunting less than a day after joining the game (even though I did do scumhunting, I just didn't do it in the correct percentage)

Do I have that right?

[Thor665]

I also went back and looked.

What classifies, in your mind, as the "long post(s?)" I did about mechanics.
I know Dwlee said that I had done so (in my mind, he was wrong) but you agree with him - which post was it?
Or was it never the length, just the mechanics percentage?

[Thor665]

I'm not going to argue semantics and intricate details with you. I'm really not in the mood to get into such a senseless dbeate. You made a lot of mechs posts that stuck out in my mind. That's a scumtell in my mind. I'm scumreading you for it.

Why can't you defend your own thoughts?

Fate dropped his Camn push like a wet blanket to push on WhiteLight - does that give you a positive or negative vibe on Fate's alignment?

LOL well we've been waiting to sort whether Fate was mafia or Szilard, but ya thanks for claiming 3P Fate!

EHEHEHAHAHAUAHUAHUEHAUHAUA

Let's say you're right - why are you trying to lynch him?

[Thor665]

I'm not going to argue semantics and intricate details with you. I'm really not in the mood to get into such a senseless dbeate. You made a lot of mechs posts that stuck out in my mind. That's a scumtell in my mind. I'm scumreading you for it.

Why can't you defend your own thoughts?

I already have.

No - you haven't, you have expressed one thought, had it questioned, clarified it into 1 or 2 alternate reasons (and not clarified whether you mean both or just the second) and then kind of hand waved when I pointed out that factually you really didn't have a basis to hold the belief you stated with "don' wanna debate!"

You've actually gone out of your way to occlude and hide from explaining your thoughts.
Which, incidentally, is why people think you're scum.

I am nota threat to town

If you thought that was optimal play you would have claimed early.
The lack of early claim shows that town's win was not particularly high in your value calls.
In fact - you tried to call me scum and get me lynched for suggesting that town/you should ally up. Which, y'know, shows that you drastically do not believe what you're now selling.

Vote: Fate

Maybe you should toss out a lot of reads right now?

It's just that since Maiza has a king modifier, I'm worried that his loss is a town loss but I wanted to ask the mod but they apparently don't like me

Does your PM indicate this as your loss condition?

Anyway in all seriousness, shouldn't we like, not lynch the 3p that doesn't have any nightkills?
Also I completely buy camm's claim as town tho so that's radical.

VOTE: Aristo

Decent vote.

Aristo is not a decent vote - and what changed your read of him to being worse than me, as I'm still percentage wise heavy on the mechanics talk?

[Thor665]

Reading their abilities, it looks like a Mafia kill and a Vig kill to me, with odd coincidence of night targets.

I sorta suspect Nahdia was Vigged and WL was Mafia-ed.

Vote: Camntsuki

[Thor665]

So one town lynch and 2 town kills day one. This isn't turning out well

Thanks for that update, I was unaware of this information.

[Thor665]

Why Heuristically Alone over Camn?
Camn is a filthy liar, so there's that.

[Thor665]

This, mostly. "Could" be a scumslip. ok.

So, you're saying as scum he didn't want to commit to calling it a scumslip because he knew it wasn't as opposed to town just being unsure of a tell?

What did camn lie about? the daytime secret assassin guilty?

Yes.

Smurf policy lynches, man. fate claimed 3p idk when

Fate did, and Camn also claimed a fake investigate prior to that.
Do you trust the Camn slot? Because I hate the policy lynch buzzword stuff - you don't fake an investigative. I would loathe having the Camn slot in anything even close to a mylo because the slot already has shown it is untrustworthy. Call it a policy if you wish, it remains a good lynch explicitly because they FAKED A GUILTY. There's no way you allow that slot to live after that, you don't.

[Thor665]

Why Heuristically Alone over Camn?
Camn is a filthy liar, so there's that.

For the record, I kinda don't care if we lose because of this, because fuck fake guilties from town.

VOTE: camntsuki

It was Fate's fault for trying to out our role!

And Fate implicitly claimed 3p. Your push is bad, and is a good place for us to start as we head out for the day to drink.

VOTE: CERBERUS

If that's scummy, then why am I doing it and not being voted?
You played pro-scum, I don't care if Fate trolled later, after his troll your proper response was 'I was just kidding, but now I'm not' instead you let it slide.

@Cerberus - if you don't care about the game, replace out. Otherwise you're playing as bad as Camn. If you do care about the game, then don't lie about it in thread for play advantage.

[Thor665]

I refuse to replace out. Mods lives are hard enough already. I'll get over over my loathing of camn as soon as that slot is gone, and possibly a bit later if they end up surviving.

If you refuse to replace out then don't sell me a bill of good on outrage at someone's play.
Vote them because you think they're scum or not at all - I don't want you on this wagon otherwise.

[Thor665]

It's amazing how little I care what you want. You would be astonished, really.

Unvote: Camn
Vote: Cerberus

[Thor665]

Fate (7): Dwlee99, camntsuki, WhiteLight, Nahdia,

Aristophanes

, Thor665, Florestan

@Aristo - remind me again why you were voting Fate?

[Thor665]

isn't essentially a policy lynch

What's wrong with a policy lynch?

[Thor665]

Because he also feigned being 3P, and I thought he had essentially claimed it at one point.
Like, through the night phase, I was kicking myself for being on that wagon, not because I didn't think it was a good one, but because Nahdia was a better one. She flipped town too though, so...

He was acting scummy , essentially claimed 3P, and refused to work with us. I don't know why he did it.

So it's laughably bad that people believed Camn's claim of an investigative role, but it makes sense to think Fate claimed 3rd party in response to it?
How does that make sense?

[Thor665]

isn't essentially a policy lynch

What's wrong with a policy lynch?

I don't like to lynch people for non alignment indicative things if I can help it.

I have never seen a policy lynch applied to anything that isn't excessive lurking, lying, or solid anti-town play.
If someone is actively playing in a way that benefits scum (which is why it's called anti-town) isn't that alignment indicative of them being less likely town?

Because he also feigned being 3P, and I thought he had essentially claimed it at one point.
Like, through the night phase, I was kicking myself for being on that wagon, not because I didn't think it was a good one, but because Nahdia was a better one. She flipped town too though, so...

He was acting scummy , essentially claimed 3P, and refused to work with us. I don't know why he did it.

So it's laughably bad that people believed Camn's claim of an investigative role, but it makes sense to think Fate claimed 3rd party in response to it?
How does that make sense?

It made sense to me at the time, and I thought it was a legit claim.

But if you found Camn a joke, why did you think Fate's claim made sense?

PS, was that a Vig shot? or did the "best friends" die together lover-style?

I already offered my thoughts on this - what are yours?

Did you forget that Cerberus claimed page one? Even if Cerb didn't care about the game, we shouldn't just vote out someone that is more likely town

I didn't forget it, I still never read it - why do you think it makes him more likely town than not?

[Thor665]

No. There are townies that just act in anti town ways. Policy lynches are just lynches for a reason other than the content of their posts. Something better if avoided.

So we can agree that the player plays in a way that hurts town when they are town, and hurts town when they are scum.
I fail to see how the idea of lynching them then doesn't pay attention to the content of their posts.
If a player is hurting my wincon, then they're a good lynch, yeah?

I find that when someone claims immediately right at the beginning and there is no counter claim, they are most likely town. Would you disagree?

Depends on the claim.
I am willing to accept that they are ascetic if you'd like - but I don't see why that should inform me of their alignment. Clarify?

[Thor665]

@Nosferatu - Why not answer his core question instead of playing a dance, who is your current top lynch desire?

[Thor665]

You are not a special snowflake, Thor. I'm treating you the same way I'm treating everyone else, and if my disregard for your opinions bothers you, perhaps you should give me more reason to value your opinion than an isolated, though admittedly competent, bit of optimization.

1. You literally just described why my opinion could be taken as valid.
2. If you find faking PRs to be policy lynch worthy I am not sure why you think refusal to unvote someone you're not scum reading isn't policy lynch worthy.

@Nosferatu - Why not answer his core question instead of playing a dance, who is your current top lynch desire?

don't have one atm

What are you planning to do about that?
You feel like you're doing nothing - are you doing something?

Ario is no longer a town read for me.
Flore is a valid lynch option for me now.

[Thor665]

1. Oh, snap, sorry, didn't realize I need to continually prove that I don't drool on myself.
2. I said unvote him if you weren't - you told me to sod off, if by that you meant 'but I am scuma-reading him!' then I submit you need to work on how you express your beliefs.

[Thor665]

I'll spell it out for you: I'm scumreading him, but Smurf you if you think I give a damn about whether or not you want me on a wagon.

Is that clear enough now?

No, use some smaller words please.

[Thor665]

policy lynching is stupid when it seems there is a vig in the game.

That presumes a lot on the Vig.

[Thor665]

Unvote: Cerberus666
Vote: heuristically_alone

Let's talk about only HA and Dwlee.
Or about Cerberus leaving his vote on Camn while asking for us not to only talk about two slots while continuing to only talk about two slots(but, gosh, he's open if people want to ask him questions!).
Not sure why Ario is getting so much town shade - can someone explain to me why he looks town?

[Thor665]

I've seen it done, so it's not unheard of.
At the end of the day it's like a Miller claim - you judge based on play.

At least you're supposed to, it's why I don't claim Miller anymore.

[Thor665]

why is this game so slow?

Because someone helped kibosh Day 1, so we're still in Day 1 on Day 2.

@Staeg - I don't see the contradiction I think you're implying exists in those posts - can you walk me through it?

[Thor665]

So the issue is you think he just looks like an empty prattler?

[Thor665]

I sort of see that logic in the 3rd post - I don't see it at all in the first two.

[Thor665]

I mean - how does someone who's assigning townpoints for an early claim not consider that it might be faked within seconds of the original thought?

Doesn't even really read that way to me - he is sort of asking an open 'does anyone believe that?' sort of thing to my perception.

[Thor665]

I started looking through nahdia's iso a bit. I dont think it will really help though. Nahdia said something about being scum read so maybe they were the vig.kill. Idk why people wont just answer their opinion..?

I answered that question at Daystart - if it's exciting to you why not ask me about my conclusions?

[Thor665]

Dwlee and h_a aren't both scum are they?
They have to both be scum

You're pointing out sloppy play from them.
Pretty sure sloppy play doesn't assure us of scum, or of them being in cahoots with their cunning ploy of playing sloppy.

I started looking through nahdia's iso a bit. I dont think it will really help though. Nahdia said something about being scum read so maybe they were the vig.kill. Idk why people wont just answer their opinion..?

I answered that question at Daystart - if it's exciting to you why not ask me about my conclusions?

I did ask. niwuehiuthg

Lemme try again. Thor, do you think Nahdia or whitelight got vigged?

No you didn't ask, you silly boy - at daySTART I already said who my presumed Vig/scum shots were - ages before you "asked".
Even now, you're "asking" me while being unaware of who I even said I thought the Vig shot was - so what the hell are you smoking?
Like, seriously, if this interested you - why didn't it interest you when I was theorizing on it?

As to your question, for starters, Nahdia is who I suggested was Vigged.
For reasons - um...did you town read her Day 1? She was a top lynch choice for a period of time even. Whereas White Light wasn't, at all.
If scum shot Nahdia, scum are dumb. Seems self evident, really.
WHo did you think the Vig shot?

[Thor665]

For the record I did ask you because I asked everyone in the thread who they thought was the vig shot. I think the vig shot was whitelight because nahdia softclaimed. I think scum probably picked up on that.

I will agree that after i had already stated my thoughts you addressed a question to the thread about it without addressing my already presented thoughts - I'm pretty sure that's what I was already saying, but I'll repeat it for you all you want.

Why would a Vig shoot White Light?

[Thor665]

while ignoring everything that makes me town.

I don't find the case against you very impressive at all.
That said - what are they ignoring? I don't think your slot has done anything that looks particularly pro-town, and certainly not enought that ignoring/missing it is strange or suspect.

[Thor665]

they're ignoring me trying to figure stuff out right now.

Is that the extent of the value you think you're bringing - a "right now" trying to figure stuff out (wherein I would tend to side with their value call of it not being impressive rather than yours of it looking particularly pro-town - nothing you are doing is even slightly out of basic scum fake scumhunting efforts, y'know).
I don't get why you're calling them out for that.

dude you're doing night kill analysis on day 2.

Well, it is hard to do on Day 1, I'll agree.
I don't get where you're coming from mocking his contributions inherently. Maybe they're not great - but they do exist, and I have no issue with NK analysis Day 2, hell, it's something I did, and, frankly, is about 33% of all I've swung thus far this phase - where's the fire?

Pedit - so the issue is that it will be more helpful later. Meh.

[Thor665]

That said, I would reallly enjoy more people in this thread and-
wait a second,

I'll admit I'm weird - but verbal stutters expressed in typed form always make me want to lynch the person doing them.

[Thor665]

I'm still at L-1, do you guys want me to claim or will someone unvote before there is a derp hammer?

What do you think you should do?

[Thor665]

oh you mean claim or not. I mean I could claim but that probably wouldn't be the best outcome. We could just have people unvote me lol

Then don't claim and stop asking about it - you're only at L-1.

[Thor665]

ok thor. Can someone tell me when camn claimed the guilty? Like what post?

There was a lengthy discussion about this already, and multiple people linked and discussed the post in question.
I have little interest in that discussion much to begin with, and much less for starting it up a second time.
Your reading is making you a valid lynch just by dint of 'I can;t imagine him helping us win, even if he is town, because he doesn't care enough about the game to play it'.

[Thor665]

ok thor. Can someone tell me when camn claimed the guilty? Like what post?

There was a lengthy discussion about this already, and multiple people linked and discussed the post in question.
I have little interest in that discussion much to begin with, and much less for starting it up a second time.
Your reading is making you a valid lynch just by dint of 'I can;t imagine him helping us win, even if he is town, because he doesn't care enough about the game to play it'.

are you for real. WHY DO YOU PEOPLE SAY I DONT CARE ABOUT THE GAME WHEN I AM FINDING SCUM RN

When you don't care enough to read the game at all while being actively in it, I consider that an insult to me and a suggestion that you don't care.
You are repeatedly admitting/showing that you're not reading anything.
I consider that the same as not caring.
If you cared - you'd read.
Missing me talking the NKA and the *pages* about Camn's claim (And to a lesser extent, not being willing to quest through her iso for info you want, when you had to be able to know roughly what stage of yesterday it happened in) just reeks of 'don't care'.

Why do you think it should look like caring?

Yeah. Dwlee is clearly trying. I don't understand how you guys are sayng he isn't. Idk if he's trying cause he's town, or cause he's scum tryng to prevent his lynch, but he's doing more than 80% of the game right now.

Can you describe what he's doing that is impressive in any way at all?
Or even valid proof of trying.

I'll agree he's doing more than 80% of the game - but that's because most of the game isn't posting at all, so he has them beat there.
But it's perfectly valid to suggest he isn't doing anything with all his posts. Because he isn't. He's just tossing out empty questions, and empty analysis.
And I'm not voting him, and don't find the case on him impressive - but I can be honest about his contributions.

Also, that Dwlee isn't being defended by, like, anyone, makes me nervous.

Then unvote him?
What even is this?

[Thor665]

"If scum know I exist it's just lol" means Im useless, not that it doesnt matter. I guess that wasnt very clear but nice rolefish m9

Yet you claimed that you had some sort of ability, so not useless. I am 100% serious here. We need to force Dwlee to claim so that you will all see he is scum when I flip town, or even better decide to just get rid of him now.

[Thor665]

"If scum know I exist it's just lol" means Im useless, not that it doesnt matter. I guess that wasnt very clear but nice rolefish m9

Yet you claimed that you had some sort of ability, so not useless. I am 100% serious here. We need to force Dwlee to claim

so that you will all see he is scum when I flip town, or even better decide to just get rid of him now.

Here, I highlighted the parts I'm making the face about.

[Thor665]

Why are people not dead yet?

Lack of majority votes on a single wagon would be my guess.

[Thor665]

H_A played that hideously - and maybe learned a lesson about 'reading is tech'.
Alpaca's comments are meaningless.
People *jumping* on Alpaca over meaningless comments is even weirder than that.

@Camn - sell me on Aristo and Florestan being townbloc material. I don't feel either of those.

[Thor665]

Okay - I might like to hear some of those pegs if you can. Meta unsupported is also called 'gut'.
You also forgot 50% of the players I asked about - I also asked about Florestan. Anything there?

[Thor665]

Florestan I think is giving me townfeels on positions. It seems like he agrees with us a lot, and that is the kind of player we think is town.
But I could totally swing on THAT slot. because it could be a cognitive fallacy, I know.

I find him straight up opportunistic and not very giving in reads.
Why are our takes on that slot so shockingly different?

Aristo we are way firmer on.
It not JUST deep meta- there is something shiningly town about his interactions day 1. Other than you, he is the most-left on my spreadsheet. I want to see him alive in LYLO for reals.

I agree that Day 1 he looked pretty good.
Do me a favor and look at him just in Day 2 - does it feel the same?

[Thor665]

Can we all stop talking about H_A now?
That is literally useless on every scale of useless.
I'm looking at you Staeg, Florestan, and Alpaca - just stahp.

thor are you considering voting flore or naw?

Naw?

Yes, I would consider voting Flore.

[Thor665]

what have you done today?

I got shot at

huh?

And I'm gonna read your iso.

HA tried to eat me.
Which means he thought I was Maiza.
Who is conftown.

I don't think you should be trying to stand on the shoulders of H_A's reads in this game while talking in a serious voice.

[Thor665]

I swear to you, get me to lylo and we have a 100% winrate. (We being town.) I strongly believe that if we follow Camntsuki's list, we will win prior to that though, and Lylo will not be necessary.

This is the driving force behind my vote btw

That seems a random value to call scummy.
What's your read on Flore?

[Thor665]

Really? It stuck out to me.

Yes, really - and clearly it didn't stick out to you too much as you just flopped on it off of a single request, so why are you acting like it's a thing?

Didn't remember much of Flore except for the early scumslip shenanigans, iso-check reveals 634 into 681 which feels extremely off. The recent vig-mafia argument with alpaca gives me a headache, but so does everything else related to alpaca, so whatever. Would be willing to switch my vote here; the two aforementioned posts are probably worse than aristo's 991.

Yeah, I'm kinda leaning lynching him or you at this stage.

[Thor665]

Yes, really - and clearly it didn't stick out to you too much as you just flopped on it off of a single request, so why are you acting like it's a thing?

I don't see how this follows. It's less scummy because someone else did something more scummy. ??[/quote]
Frankly I am unimpressed by both you and Camn "noticing" new top scum reads.
Yes, U think if that was a valid scumtell you would have hung onto it far more than you did - that you forgot/missed a more important scumtell makes me think you're either scum, or that the scumtells are all super weak, so should be assessed as such.

Why, what are you getting out of all this?

[Thor665]

The reason why I "noticed" a new top scumread is because nothing about the two posts of flore's I mentioned before was suspicious individually. I hadn't registered that they were really made by the same person as consecutive posts.

And when Camn said 'switch!' you went back, iso'ed the slot, and figured it was more scummy than your current top scum.
Meh.
Flows weird.

All of what?

All of your top scum read flip-a-roo. I said that I found the speed of it to suggest that you didn't have strong reads to begin with or were scum lying about reads, and asked you what you thought of it.

[Thor665]

@thor- how precise do you think our mod is about times?

Dunno.

[Thor665]

The crux of that case is based off the mod offering an exact time.

The mod straight up said "approximately" in his post made roughly 24 hours after the correction.
To my mind that means it is not likely that the mod went and looked at the time.
The mod was on site posting a vote count at 7:43am EST.
Which means if we buy the 8:30am as correct within at least ten-twenty minutes, that the mod dorked around doing stuff unrelated to this game for 20-40 minutes while crafting an answer to a question Flore had asked him?
I think the more likely reality is the mod was dealing with this game around the 7:43am EST time as shown by the mod's own vote counts which matches up with FLore's claimed timeline without much need to squint at all.

I also would note that Flore has *already* claimed he lied about some of the timing and awareness, so it literally doesn't matter because he already claimed that lie, so at that stage all of this work is busy meaningless work if you want to LaL him over it.

I am not a fan of that as a reason to lynch him - I don't think it makes him scum or town.
I think his empty iso suggests we should lynch him - nothing more, nothing less. The amount of try hard on this case curls my toes slightly.

[Thor665]

By me just saying 'I find him scummy, why does everyone town read him?' I've shifted him from a soft town to a soft scum read amongst 2-3 players.
If I strong scum read him I probably could have got him to L-1 by now, but I don't so I'm not.

[Thor665]

Can you re-phrase that, I don't understand what you're trying to say.

[Thor665]

And thor- I went to bed annoyed with you, and it isn't any better today.
The ball is yours: lead us to a scumlynch if us trying to make something out of this game is so toe-curling for you.

Say whaaaaa?

It's not like I stamped my foot and claimed all efforts were meaningless - I cited *specific* issues with your case as presented and *explicitly* noted the issues that caused toe curl...and you're making that case off a scum lean I already presented, so it's disingenuous to cry back that I need to do more.

I am hunting.
I am presenting reads.
I expressed issue with two (such a massive and cold number!).
I specifically cited issues with your case THAT YOU DIDN'T EVEN CARE ENOUGH ABOUT TO DEBATE ME ON.

Now you're taking your ball and going home because I annoy you even though up until I said anything Flore wasn't even your top lynch desire?
What is this gak?

[Thor665]

I agree with that analysis - it's why I'm not strong pushing either.
Methinks today is going to end up on a 'lynch least useful looking player'.

[Thor665]

I think Florestan stands out as a solid argument for least helpful - as suggested by me just asking people to justify his contributions and being met with new scum reads on him as a consequence, yes.

[Thor665]

Or Alpaca.

I'm kinda town reading Alpaca - what's the issue with him?

[Thor665]

@Camn - I'd actually be happier with Alpaca and Nos at this stage than you.

[Thor665]

@Camn - I'd actually be happier with Alpaca and Nos at this stage than you.

In Lylo?
For real!?

Aw, damn, no, not for real, I was just randomly saying stuff I don't believe in.

What are you even doing here? Expressing *shock* that I townread Alpaca and Nos more than Camn?
Why is that shocking?

Like - what is the uber pro town pedestal that Camn has to stand on?
WHat has Alpaca done that is particularly scummy?
WHat about Nos, what has that slot done to deserve distrust?

Back up your "for real!?" and maybe we can sort this.

[Thor665]

@Camn - I'd actually be happier with Alpaca and Nos at this stage than you.

Why's that Mr. Smurf?

Because I town read Alpaca, soft town read Nos, and don't town read you.

I have a gut scumread on Alpaca from my brief iso on him, can Thor or dwlee99 explain why he's town?

I have a gut town on him.

I sincerely believe that scum do not know who maiza is, period. If I'm wrong about that, then he's fairly likely to be scum.

Why do you think that?

Also doubt that loved and hated are on the same team.

Why?

Also as camn was saying, you guys actually need to kill me before LyLo. Me in LyLo is pretty much auto scum win cause hated.

So you'd like the Vig to shoot you, is what I'm hearing?

[Thor665]

Genuine is a good descriptor word for my gut as well.
He doesn't feel fake.

[Thor665]

Thor, to answer your question about my belief that scum don't know who Maiza is: Any scum lynch would cause Maiza to be outed, and they may very well try to get him removed from the game earlier by "slipping" regarding his identity. There are ways to balance it and give scum cause to keep him around, but it's far too beneficial to them to be gifted a mislynch+kill for them to not take that opportunity whenever it presented itself. The only benefits I could imagine scum keeping maiza/szilard around for would be lynchproof enabling/extra kill enabling. Anything less than that and the value of having szilard hit maiza is too high in a game this small.

In addition, that fact makes me feel like scum knowledge of maiza would devalue almost entirely the whole mini game that was running within this game, and that just doesn't seem likely.

In reading further I see you absorbed the best rejoinder to this theory with a 'I'mma skim!' Okay.

Could you get a vote in play now?
Like, do you approve of the Flore lynch?
Or would you still like Camn lynched?
Or what?

@Alpaca - if you had a Day Vig, whom would you shoot right now?

[Thor665]

Smurf this is the thing cerb mentioned where I can't push Alpaca cause then he just hammers me before I finish isoing everyone. You admitting my wall had merit and you not responding to it is awful. Also how the Smurf do I jump on a train I started? I was the first person to call you out and now I'm jumping on the bandwagon of you being scum that I've pushed most of the game by now. WTS, alright I'm pretty sure that Alpaca is scum here guys.

Nothing he said made any sense whatsoever.

I'm pretty sure you're at L-2, and even if you're at L-1 wouldn't forcing your top scum read to panick hammer you fulfill your needs just fine if the goal is to get town to make him a top scumspect?

[Thor665]

I'm pretty sure you're at L-2, and even if you're at L-1 wouldn't forcing your top scum read to panick hammer you fulfill your needs just fine if the goal is to get town to make him a top scumspect?

No cause I haven't found his partner yet.

Do you have high accuracy team callouts?

[Thor665]

I'm pretty sure you're at L-2, and even if you're at L-1 wouldn't forcing your top scum read to panick hammer you fulfill your needs just fine if the goal is to get town to make him a top scumspect?

No cause I haven't found his partner yet.

Do you have high accuracy team callouts?

Literally only have one game on site where 1 mafia had already flipped. If you want me to just rollover I can but given that I'd rather try to solve the game I'm not sure why you are trying to stop me unless this game is seriously bastard.

I'm just trying to understand why your belief in your team callout is so strong that you fear pressuring your top scum read will cause him to hammer you prior to you sorting his partner.
Like, the fear is laughable to me.

[Thor665]

Thor, is it alignment indicative though? Just because something isnt logical doesnt make it scum.

If I was calling him town/scum over it then this would be a valid question.
I am not, so it isn't - yeah?

[Thor665]

I was half joking....

So, in all seriousness - how about you push your top scumread?

[Thor665]

I disagree, and there we sit.

[Thor665]

So is there anything particularly to let you live for?
I'm of a mind to lynch you in the next few hours just for the flip info.

[Thor665]

But if you like, I'll L-2 him again.

I would like, do you like?

[Thor665]

Vote one of them, you're not voting anyone so, y'know, vote a top scum read?

[Thor665]

I blame mod vote counts not happening over the past 3 days.
But I am happy with your vote as stands.

[Thor665]

Why's that?

[Thor665]

Why's that?

[Thor665]

Should we try and swing a Staeg wagon?

Should you - I have expressed desire to lynch Flore within the day.
So, yeah, you better get on that if you want to do it.

[Thor665]

Once we lynch someone, should the Vig go for the alt wagon or for Alpaca?

I'd rather they shoot the latter, but getting both of these to flip I'd a good option for VCA.

I would oppose the Alpaca shot straight up.
That is a silly shot on a number of metrics - and no one has particularly offered a good reason to lynch or shoot him, yet you keep acting like he's a valid option for death for some reason. Whassup?

ayo VOTE: staeg

though if this flips town it does look really bad for flore because it means twice he tried to survive by jumping on an alternate wagon and that should probably be lynched.

pedit: flip a coin tbh

If you don't like Flore's survivalism and you find that slot scummy, why are you backing his play even if onto your other top scumread while hanging a hat on it?

Vote: Florestan

[Thor665]

I mean, survivalism aside, remember when Flore had pegged Alpaca and was questing for his scumpartner?
Because I feel like everyone forgot that - Flore certainly did.

[Thor665]

would oppose the Alpaca shot straight up.
That is a silly shot on a number of metrics - and no one has particularly offered a good reason to lynch or shoot him, yet you keep acting like he's a valid option for death for some reason. Whassup?

No, this is bad.

I don't think it is - you've clearly got a lot of suspicion on you and are just voting for survivlism instead of advancing your scum cases. That does not make you very useful to town, and also with the amount of suspicion on you, knowing your alignment is super helpful.

[Thor665]

He iso is empty, a lot of posts feel awkward and scummy, and he scum slipped recently. Also I don't get how much more I should be pushing Alpaca when I've already done this and he has responded in any way to it.

The point of getting a suspected scum player to respond to your case on them is to prove to yourself they are scum, or give you further evidence to advance your case to others that they are scum.
You don't need them to respond to a case if you already believe they are scum.
And I don't see you pushing your case on them to others and being told you need more evidence (though if you asked me, your case was underwhelming, and included calling them possibly town too much to be particularly convincing).

[Thor665]

My role is less than useless if my target dies or if I find a role that could easily be scum or town and claimable as such.

Yeah, though we appear to be in a slight bit of a role madness-esque type game, so it's pretty informative across the board methinks. Did you not consider that, or did you and find a reason to dismiss the concept?

[Thor665]

I did consider it, but I came to the conclusion that we are, in fact, not in a role madness-esque type game, since there's only two scum. What information do I gain by using it N1 that I don't get by using it N2? What does "informative across the board" even mean - how is that at odds with my previous post?

Why do you think we're not in role madness-esque?

We have had zero Vanilla flips, and multiple people have claimed/hinted at not being vanilla.

[Thor665]

Wait, why are you talking about the present? How many people had claimed/hinted at being/flipped non-vanilla at night 1? Just Fate? Hrm.

I believe the count would have been 3, toss in Slizard and Maiz and yourself, and that's already a pretty hefty spread.

Thor I know you like asking a lot of questions and I know you're a good player but it feels like all you've been doing is telling people optimal play and then asking questions whose answers lead to more questions

You ended this with a question mark, but I'm not sure what the question is.
Yes, I am doing what you say I'm doing - is that your answer?

[Thor665]

What? That was a statement about your play. No question marks were in that post.

My bad, I thought you did...what was the point of that post if it wasn't a question? Just a generic observation of how I'm playing?

[Thor665]

Meaning you now town read Flores again?

[Thor665]

Sure, why not.

[Thor665]

What? That was a statement about your play. No question marks were in that post.

My bad, I thought you did...what was the point of that post if it wasn't a question? Just a generic observation of how I'm playing?

I'm telling you to play better in a very kind way

Copy you, I'll start responding with lol more.

[Thor665]

Actually, is there any way anyone cares enough about what I have to say for it to change anything that happens with this day phase? If not, there's no reason to waste everyone's time waiting for me to actually post analysis and stuff.

I've found your slot to be a black hole of contribution this phase - so waiting another phase on a vague promise of scumhunting doesn't seem to change much about you one way or the other for me.

[Thor665]

I sort of took it as a glorified prod dodge for content, myself.
Not that I care - no one is advocating lynching him today, and I think we've pointed the Vig elsewhere reasonably, so he has little urge to provide beyond wanting to help town, and I don't care to bother with pressure today, so let's get a lynch and assess him tomorrow.

[Thor665]

I am voting Flore and still consider him the best lynch.

[Thor665]

So vote Flores and stop sheeping the flavor of the day.

[Thor665]

I am voting Flores.

Then don't start saying stuff like 'If I support this'.
Take charge of your vote and wagon support, you're basically just kind of soft sheeping Camn around, and she's changing views every 36 hours.

[Thor665]

caught up, nothings changed. Still good with staeg or flore, and possibly cerb.

You could hammer Flore.
So...?

[Thor665]

Actually, we should massclaim.

Order: Cerb > Nos > Alpaca > Me

Switch Alpaca and Dwlee, and I'll second it.
Frankly I'd just say start with Cerb and popcorn.

super bah, only usable when you die due to mod error.

I agree, that sucked, though I kinda feel you were for the chop that day regardless I'll admit.
But, yeah, I'd be peeved too - much lurvs, other than blind hate towards scum

[Thor665]

I will also say for Aristo's benefit, that I don't think that was the optimal shot after the Flore flip, y'know.
It would have been good if he'd flipped town though, fer shure.
Sadfacing over here.

[Thor665]

I'm not sure if I find BP a totally wtfomglol type claim considering we had lovers and a Vig and a sort of pseudo Lover/Vig setup, that's actually a lot of capability for town to kill themselves.

I'm also interested in the Flore role PM when compared to the Ario/Camn ones - the town players there had explicit statements of my role.
So did WhiteLight and Nahdia.
Flore didn't - yet played the claim game and had mod confirm that info in thread. Hurm...

@Mod - can you confirm that this the offered Flore role PM is correct (insomuch as it contains his entire role PM barring redacted info)
Basically I'm asking is, if there was a "correction" needed for the role PM, are we seeing a copy of the role PM prior to getting that correction?

[Thor665]

Flore's role, as stated, looks on the weak side for scum.
A BP scum would go a long way towards balancing them with all the killing power town has.

I'm trying to wrap my mind around Ascetic in this setup - Cerb is Ascetic to...prevent the one shot role cop and one shot bodyguard from targeting him?
Am I forgetting any other targeting powers?

@Mod - In a theory setup where Camn and Ari's role exist with an Ascetic - could they use their Vig power on that Ascetic, or would the Ascetic's power prevent either from targeting him singly, and thus prevent a kill?

[Thor665]

I thought about it but assumed it was just the original one with the error considering that the mod publicly confirmed that he should have known the identity of Maiza.

I see no reason to assume things. That said, you were trying to point out my bad play earlier, so feel free to correct me if you see something I don't.

[Thor665]

I agree, that is probably what happened - do you not want to know for sure?

[Thor665]

I dunno - you're the one who interjected an assumption.
lol?

[Thor665]

But the answer is, yes, it matters.

[Thor665]

@Alpaca - what are your thoughts on scum bussing? Good strategy, bad, indifferent?

[Thor665]

Florestan's PM is posted as he received it, which is without the line regarding maiza's identity. The error is not related to Florestan's alignment.

An unmodified ascetic would not block the star-crossed vig. I perceive that as a killing action regardless of success.

Thank you very much!

lynch alpaca, if town dwlee bgs me, if I die, dwlee lied. If dwlee is telling the truth, then last one is cerb. gg.

Why Alpaca first, why not, for instance, a Cerb first?
Cerb even said he should be lynched - I tend to instinctively support that, because I like to punish it as a gambit.



Okay, so if Cerb's role doesn't work on the Vig Lovers or the pseudo Vig then his power would only work on the 1 shot rolecop, the 1 shot bodyguard (if real), and maybe the second scum player's power.
So Aesetic feels kind of off at the moment purpose wise in the setup.
I dunno, maybe as an assured kill capability to help balance two town BPs - whil town also has Lovers and a potential suicide Vig?

Looking at Nos' claim - I will admit to inherently liking the symmetry of town hated/scum beloved so that feels right in a general sense. Hate the lylo revelation, that feels scummy. Would scum gambit hated after having one of their own as a confirmed beloved?

If at least one scum knew who I was (big shock ) then clearly their conceptual play was done very well by Flore (and, dude, well done - it's not your fault that Heuristically was refusing to read almost feel sorry for scumteam over that one...almost). But, they would know never to shoot me unless we want to theorize they lacked gamestart and/or daychat and the other scum is uninformed, and I'm not really buying into that. So, a surprise BP? Mildly buying it, there are a lot of killing roles. I do agree with Dwlee's point that the role makes sense as a scum role also (albeit, then making Cerb's role kind of wonky)

Dwlee's role doesn't speak to me in the setup very much either way. He did respond to the rolecop claim with an appropriate vibe if town though, so that's nice. Wish he had been a bit cleaner on wanting to lynch Flore though.

[Thor665]

So you think town Ascetic to block one shot rolcop and one shot bodyguard doesn't seem fishy?

[Thor665]

Flore's iso makes me kinda feel like Alpaca is pretty obv. town.

[Thor665]

I hate alpaca's reaction to my claim, fwiw

What do you think about his interactions with Flore?

[Thor665]

This is feeling really dead.

I'm starting to think we lynch Cerberus, and Nos targets Dwlee.

I have come up with this theory based on the concept that Cerb pings me a bit, does look a bit cleared from Flores attacking him - but pairs that with being even more of a lurker than the rest of you, and thinking his role makes the least sense.

How does everyone else feel about this plan?

[Thor665]

Are you self voting already?

[Thor665]

If you think the best lynch is you, you should be voting you.
If you don't think you should be voting you, you should be voting someone else and saying why.
I tried to stay fairly quiet and just do IiofA - people lurked and I got bored. If people just want to sheep, that offers me something to analyze as well.

[Thor665]

Actually. Huh. Are we seriously just playing to avoid a draw right now?

Only if you believe Alpaca's claim.
Do you.

Incidentally, since we're lynching you - how about a final reads offering?

[Thor665]

I'll agree Alpaca's role, like yours, doesn't make a lot of sense to me in the setup (unless he honest claimed his scum role, which I could see him doing).

[Thor665]

Dwlee is currently winning the most town points in my universe by backing up commentary with votes.

[Thor665]

@Cerberus - pretend to be town for a moment, and place a vote on your top scumspect with some reasoning attached.

@Nos - I understand that you think the BP role doesn't make sense, can you explain how much sense Cerb's role makes for me?

These last few days remind me why I'm usually more aggressively proactive when conf. town. Hey, everybody, I'm the one with the justified right to derp lurk - not all of you. I'm about to just start death tunneling the lowest posting contributor just so the game is a little more interesting next day phase.

[Thor665]

Also based on the fact that the rolecop died, I think that scum is susceptible to it. That's why I doubt alpaca more than cerb.

But the concept of scum Alpaca is based on him honest claiming his scum role and lying about his alignment - why would, if that were his plan, he sweat a rolecop at all?

I won't be voting for anything Thor,

I know, like I said, "if you want to start acting town".

[Thor665]

So, things are dead as a doorknob in here.

Vote: AlpacaAlpaca

Let's bum rush this.

Dwlee on Nos - and if tomorrow comes we lynch Cerberus.

[Thor665]

Agreed, it could mean that Cerb targeted you.
But in what world does Cerb's role exist without Nos' role?
Like, the purpose of his role is to provide a no result on a one shot rolecop?

[Thor665]

But in what world does Cerb's role exist without Nos' role?
Like, the purpose of his role is to provide a no result on a one shot rolecop?

[Thor665]

I'm mixing up Dwlee's and Nos' claims - toss in Dwlee's name and then it works as intended.

[Thor665]

If we get an assured town flip from you, I suppose we can discuss it.
Then we'll lynch Cerb.

[Thor665]

Because mods don't make games without having some concept in their head about making things interesting - connections exist due to role. I town read Alpaca, but his role makes no sense, hence he needs death. If he is town, that will clarify quite a bit as it means scum have something beyond what we think, at that stage, if you die I'm left with two negative utility roles, one that doesn't actually have much negative utility to town,a dn the other that does, and, oddly, are connected to a player who has done nothing, and one who has.

Seems pretty clear cut to me.

[Thor665]

So sad, too bad.

[Thor665]

Eh, maybe scum were given a strongman just to offset the perma town PR if the SK derped, and then maybe town was given another BP to help justify scum's killing power boost, but that's about it.
I will say I did continually like Alpaca's play, but...that setup seems unlikely. Not insane, just unlikely.

[Thor665]

I agree that would have been a valid decision on their part, though submit that if they had suspicions or issues of the Vig (and frankly my theory was Masons due to their commentary) then their shot yesterday made at least as much sense as shooting me.

I also agree that they might not have a strongman at all.

In both cases I submit that an Alpaca lynch is the correct move - pretty sure I'm voting him.

[Thor665]

What's the point of a Cop if there's a GF?
What's the point of a tracker if there's a ninja?
Simply because counters exist does not invalidate the existence of roles, or that mods often use them in specific conjunction with other roles that preclude them.

[Thor665]

What do you do tomorrow if there is a no kill tonight?
What if I die in the night?
What if nos dies in the night?
What if dwlee dies in the night?

Lynch you.
Lynch Dwlee.
Lynch you.
Lynch you.

[Thor665]

If you think your lynch is best, self vote and talk to others - I am clearly already on board with lynching you, so I don't get the point of trying to convince me.

[Thor665]

You need to talk specifically to Cerb or Nos - they have hammer ability.
Everyone else is voting Alpaca or is Alpaca.

[Thor665]

....

You don't seem to understand Cerberus. The math you laid out is functionally meaningless. I have a 50% chance of hitting scum, straight up on random guessing, because I have two lynches and four scumspects.

Since there is no world where a lynch of you today will guide me not to lynch Alpaca tomorrow if you flip town - it actually doesn't make any difference to my statistical odds except in the magic world where you are nightkilled. And since we are already assured that won't happen, I don't see your boggle at all.

[Thor665]

Oh, so you're telling me that in the event that dwlee/nos are scum, they've already won?

Yes, I am.

What's the point of a Cop if there's a GF?
What's the point of a tracker if there's a ninja?
Simply because counters exist does not invalidate the existence of roles, or that mods often use them in specific conjunction with other roles that preclude them.

but you're suggesting a counter to offset a problem, and the counter doesn't fix the problem. If there's a scum strongman to get rid of the IC BP, putting a BP in the game isn't really fixing that. It also doesn't mesh with the subplot of the game: the assassin trying to find the BP. If scum can just kill the BP, that completely destroys a whole alignment, and from florestan's flip, scum knew about you being the BP, but didn't do anything. It's just, why?

In a general sense I agree with you.

I'm voting Alpaca, last I checked.
Why aren't you?

[Thor665]

Also, cerb, I really started to town read you later in the day which is why I was arguing with thor about just straight up lynching you if alpaca flipped town.

Meh, it had to be one of them - nothing else made sense.

@Alpaca - yeah, your play was fine, your claim was not just a final nail in your coffin, but also pretty much the carving and assembly of a coffin. Even if you had added in a 1 shot modifier, or a BP until mylo/lylo first occurs, then auto VT for rest of game or something it would have made your role more questionable.

[Thor665]

All I'm good at is choking in LYLO and snatching defeat from the jaws of victory when I'm town. ^^

Really the issue with you in lylo is that you went basically dead silent - you sorta did it the phase before also. Your Day 1 felt good, you went downhill as a townread of mine pretty fast after that though.

Had to instill at least 1% doubt in thor, and I didn't manage to do that.

To be honest I was actually faking a lot of that - my goal was to have scum be convinced I would lynch you regardless and maybe allow a Dwlee fakeclaim to feel more confident going for the shot on Nos than on you, or to allow Nos to be lazy about how he approached you. You were never 100% ...you were probably a reality of maybe 85% though

Fate lynch and Staeg shot were still atrocious

gg dwlee

Staeg shot was bad - kinda disagree about your lynch, it was fine and offered a lot of info for town scumhunting.

I normally wouldn't do this but how is this not insanely townsided?? Even if assasin play it perfectly its 11v2, and if not the game is insane

I don't find this game any more insane than the normal town sideness that seems to be apparent in games nowadays. I kind of like it because it's increasing my town win ratio from what it used to be, but it looks pretty site wide that games have started to favor town. The answer for this appears to be that mods are being told to expect worse town play...not sure I fully buy that, but I will say it feels like there are more troll players than there were a few years back.

[Thor665]

I find vigilantes a lot of the time help scum so there's that in there.

The reality is that Vigs are simply swingy by nature. It all depends on the quality of their reads and shots.

[Thor665]

oh yeah thor you're WELCOME for pushing you so much d1. saved your sorry Smurf from gettin' chomped.

Is that the Dead topic discussion? He didn't buy into Flore because of you? Hilarious - good work on your part

[Thor665]

My issue with the mods isn't that I got lynched early, but that They posted in game information that directly conflicted what I actually posted Posting exact PM times isn't usually how that is done, and suddenly I have to make up a whole new level of bullshit.

Yeah, correct me if I'm wrong though, but I think Camn was the only one who brought that up and I basically shot it down as an issue.
I'll agree it shouldn't happen, but I don't think it negatively impacted your team's chances.
The killer not reading the game (or buying Nahdia?) was far more painful.
I will agree that with the setup of this game the player who got the BP slot and the Killer slot was going to cause some swing - but that's pretty normal with most PRs, quality of the player/accuracy of reads that specific game, will effect game balance in ways that are hard to predict.

[Thor665]

This whole death-tunnel your Lynch targets meta is wack.

Is that site meta now?

[Thor665]

Weird.