Mini 1816: Magical Girls Mafia (Game Over)

[pieguyn]

I am town. zmuffin, are you town?

[pieguyn]

VOTE: pieguyn
The pie is a lie

this is clearly made up as a reason for voting me. I am now going to deathtunnel you into the ground.

vote: Cakez-kun

[pieguyn]

also, I totally still haven't watched past the first episode of the series Nati is from.

<_> /hides

[pieguyn]

hoi Nene. are you town?

[pieguyn]

Not again

moar votes on Cakez-kun

[pieguyn]

vote: Heat

[pieguyn]

this is so fun. :3

[pieguyn]

I can't stop laughing.

it's even more hilarious after what happened in our last game.

I think everyone using an action is probably fine for at least N1. I'm ambivalent on if it's worth it to keep doing it starting from N3.

[pieguyn]

I considered it might be OK if we did something like having everyone claim each day whether they plan on actioning that night, but I like everyone actioning N1 more for a whole bunch of reasons.

[pieguyn]

I'm going to try something new: I have exactly one scum read as of this point.

as for who it is, I'm not saying yet. see if you can figure it out.

[pieguyn]

I assume "everyone" means "everyone who wishes to action".

[pieguyn]

the reason I like placing no restriction on actioning N1 is that it keeps the amount of information scum has about how N1 will go at a minimum. I find that more valuable than any kind of plan which would split actions across N1/N2 (and now that I write this out I actually don't see how everyone actioning on N1 only is much worse than everyone actioning across N1/N2).

and ya don't ever mention Summer Waltz in front of me again. tia

[pieguyn]

I have a tentative town read on HM.

this happened earlier than I thought it would.

[pieguyn]

Anyway pie no one seems to be playing your game do you want to tell us who you are scum reading or nah?

not at this point. I will later, if it's still relevant.

[pieguyn]

it actually wasn't based on anything your head did.

:mindfuck:

[pieguyn]

mhm.

[pieguyn]

Also pie why town read me?

65.

[pieguyn]

I believe that neither Cakez nor I nor anyone else in this town need to worry about me going full insane-tunnel mode on Cakez this game.

[pieguyn]

Are you actually forgetting the Magic Gauge?

everyone actions N1 = everyone gets one action in, the magic gauge blows up, and everyone recovers on N3; everyone gets at most one action in before N3.
people split actions between N1/N2 = everyone gets at most one action in before N3.

the only real difference would be roles that might be better suited for use on N2 are forced into using it N1, which I don't think is that much of a disadvantage. the only other issue is that it hinders roles which should optimally be used on both N1 and N2.

[pieguyn]

zMuffinMan, Natirasha, and thenewearth are scum

while your town list is all town with the possible exception of Varsoon, I very much dislike that you're attempting to spin 42 as though it's somehow alignment relevant, when it's very clearly not.

can you explain this in more depth, and why is TNE scum?

[pieguyn]

V heavily disagree on 42

Seems v unnatural + the "maybe" is reluctance to lie + "hee I'm being a cheeky fuck like u gaiz" + who the hell spend that much time making a post just to not actually answer the question?

Hint: scum, that's who

Join me!!!

how much prior experience do you have with zmuffin?

[pieguyn]

vote: zakk

[pieguyn]

Townreading HM, Varsoon, zakk, Cakez, pie

explain zakk and myself, please.

p-edit: pls

[pieguyn]

pedit: I liked your contribution to action planning.

this is actually a lot more OK than I expected, although it's not something I'd be incapable of faking.

which of zakk's reads/reasoning did you like? I pretty strongly disagree; the only read he had with any substance at the point where you made the post was the zmuffin read, which I have all sorts of issues with that I'll get into later when I'm not exhausted. the read on Heat which he gave later is not as bad, but I don't think it's anywhere near town, and I have the same impression about the rest of his posts in general.

[pieguyn]

I don't find the votes on Heat compelling. I find the scum reads on TNE slightly better, but I'm not as sold on it as I could be.

I think zakk and Nati are probably scum. I'll explain these in more depth later, but as a quick preview, Cakez is fucking right about zakk's posts. it's a lot of shallow commentary that isn't really showing any critical thinking, and seems more engineered to look like he's doing things when he isn't. the Nati read isn't as strong and is mostly based around one thing she did early game pinging me, so I'm mostly just interested in seeing what she does next at this point.

Wisdom, I don't agree with your town read on zakk for his town reads matching yours. from a scum POV, if he saw a bunch of town players bloc'ing up and identifying each other as town, it would absolutely make sense for him to attempt to establish himself as a part of that town block as early as possible, and mutually town reading all of them seems like a good start to doing that. moreover, I have absolutely no idea how he can apparently town read Kuroi off of his one post at that point (24), which was distinctly not serious; it's a kind of read that you only really come up with if you're scum looking for people to call town early in the game to look like you're doing something.

[pieguyn]

oh my god.

someone please tell me I'm just *really* wrong about this.

[pieguyn]

I hate all of you.

248 is seriously the worst post in the game so far, though.

[pieguyn]

Not really, no

outside of his reads, do you have any other reason for reading him as town?

why do you disagree with what I wrote in 246, re: his town reads?

[pieguyn]

Because the way the townreads came felt townie
Sure, if you stretch imagination enough any town action can come from scum

explain how specifically the way the town reads came felt town?

what I wrote absolutely is not a stretch, and it isn't a point for thinking he's more likely scum; I just think you're completely wrong to call it a point for him being town. have you never had games where you rolled scum and felt like you had to town read certain players because it was obvious they'd end up being the town core of the game?

[pieguyn]

But beeboy just told me that this same post threw his read off, so you might be on to something.

I absolutely am. that was not anything resembling a town post and I'm glad he appears to be seeing the same thing I am there.

[pieguyn]

Pieguyn~, your push lacks any fangs, man.
Why even go after Zakk and Natirasha?
They seem like low-hanging fruit that others have voiced negative reactions to so far.
It seems like a really safe bet.
Your push there hasn't really generated any content that's made reading either of them easier.

1. if I wanted to hard push either of them at this point, I would. I'm not aiming to do that right now, though. there are certain things zakk is doing that are indicative of scum that I don't want to let him know he needs to fix; my aim there is to wait and see if he continues displaying the behavior I'm reading or if it was just one isolated early-game instance of it. the Nene read is the same, though I feel less strongly attached to it than the zakk read.

2. even outside of that, you're actually just flat-out objectively wrong about this. I took issue with zakk ever since his first posts in the game and I'm pretty sure I'm the first (outside of zakk) who raised concern with Nene. in fact, if it wasn't obvious by now, Nene was the person I was scum reading all the way back on like page 3 or so who I kept secret.

[pieguyn]

Besides holding out any real reason for scumreading the slot while you sit and wait for them to provide you with behavior you haven't mentioned, what are you trying to do here, Pieguyn?

I believe I've made it quite clear what I'm doing here, and to be blunt, I don't buy your recent posts. you're blowing both this and zmuffin's response to Nene *way* out of proportion.

[pieguyn]

Look, I'll buy that you're actually scumreading these slots, Pie.
I'll buy that you're sitting on something you can't share at this moment.
That's all dandy.

the issue here is the "hard lean" that you took was that it's somehow problematic that I'm keeping these reads to myself for the time being. this is a stance that makes no sense. in what universe does "I have scum reads on zakk and Nene which I've alluded to previously, but I don't want to explain my reasoning at this point" translate into "I have no reasoning for scum reading zakk or Nene and I'm just making shit up"? it doesn't. the obvious conclusion here, regardless of what my alignment is, is that I'm telling the truth about this and either legitimately have these reads as town or am faking a legitimate read as scum, especially given I've called out zakk's 248 for future reference as one of his posts that I didn't like and that I specifically TOLD you that I had been taking issue with his posts for a while now. you calling it out reads half-thought and more like you were hoping to find something you could get "frustrated" with in order to appear as indignated town than anything.

what you said about zmuffin was the same. how does him making 287, which is... really obviously not serious... translate into "he's painting me as a bully because I don't like how Nene is posting"? it doesn't. at all.

your focus here is all wrong from how I would expect you to react as town in this situation, by the way. I would expect if you were town here, you'd be all over me for supposedly hand-waving what you thought was a valid reason for me being scum. instead you're basically sitting there saying "teehee, don't look at me, I just wanted to take a stance". what's going on?

[pieguyn]

Cakez could be town.

you're like 7 or 8 pages late on this, I think.

[pieguyn]

I don't know if you're scum. I can only suss that out by applying the pressure I have. What's going on is that you keep making these dodges and flipping the script to make this about me instead of you. Like, what's with that whole "Town-you wouldn't react this way in this situation" deal? That feels like a redirect here. Take responsibility for what I've called you out for, don't sidewind this into something about me.

I have addressed your reasoning, namely I think it makes no sense to the point where I question how you could have came up with it. there is absolutely no reason I would have for doing what you're apparently claiming I'm doing as scum.

I will explain what I'm doing with these two reads exactly when I'm ready to. that you are attempting to paint this as "not helping the game" is laughable.

[pieguyn]

"I will wait until I have thought of a really great reason why people should lynch one of these slots, but if I don't, I'm not committed to it because I've intentionally kept my reasoning nebulous and played my cards close to my chest."

what are you even on about here?

I haven't made everything 100% explicit, but look at e.g. 120, 246, 254. I have most assuredly given some reason for scum reading zakk, even though I'm keeping the rest of the read to myself for the time being. I explicitly just *told you* that I had been taking issues with zakk's posts since his first posts in the game.

this is the entire reason I take issue with your angle on me. it's fairly obvious I'm not doing what you're claiming I'm doing.

[pieguyn]

I can't seriously believe that you think Nene's restriction is real and that you're staging this as wisdom/I are bullies for not going along with their cutesy rubbish. Build up the false narrative as much as you want, but I know you aren't this naive.

and the angle about zmuffin similarly makes no sense. what does zmuffin even have to gain as scum from doing this... ?

[pieguyn]

HEY VARSOON, are you going to respond to 316/317?

you can't just push something like that, and then ignore me asking you how what you're describing even slightly fits my play.

[pieguyn]

what the everliving fuck.

I need a mafia break.

[pieguyn]

Yes I can. Your failure to understand where I'm coming from doesn't mean I have to address you when you try to justify yourself.
In short: I'm not giving you a free pass here just because you claim you're onto something good and you're putting on an act of looking busy.
As much as you say "Nuh uh no I am not," I'm not going to back down from the observation I made.
Let it be.

let me spell this out as clearly as I can, because you're either misinterpreting what I'm writing in the most screwed up way imaginable, or you're being deliberately dense about this.

you're claiming that my goal here is to "wait until I have thought of a really great reason why people should lynch one of these slots, but if I don't, I'm not committed to it because I've intentionally kept my reasoning nebulous and played my cards close to my chest." OK... in the first place, I've said multiple times that the "really great reason" I've had for scum reading zakk is a behavior he specifically displayed in 248, which is one post. this is not ambiguous. while yeah, I'm being ambiguous about what the actual reasoning is, I am in no way uncommitted to the fact that at this point, I'm reading him for the reason I'm saying I am.

try to think about what you're saying my magical scum plan here is... if I'm playing as you say, and I decide for whatever reason zakk is town, all someone needs to do is ask me "hey, even though you think he's town now, why were you scum reading him earlier?". I can't just blatantly back out of that after everything I've wrote about him so far, because duh, it'd be obvious I was just making shit up. the same thing with the Nene read. it is obvious that regardless of whatever I do with her in the future, I initially read something she did early in the game as scummy. I have no reason to make something like that up after the fact, since if I didn't see anything she did as scummy, I had no reason to even bother commenting on her. there's no lack of commitment here, at all.

hence, what I wrote earlier: I either legitimately have this read as town, or am faking a legitimate read as scum. it's one or the other. there is no "you're deliberately withholding your reasons so you can read him whatever way you want later", which is a really half-thought through argument and reads more like you're nitpicking semantics in order to look like you have a point.

your point that I'm doing this just to look busy is the same... I can't just back out of it later, and moreover, it's not even the only point I'm making for zakk being scum. so even if you take issue with how I'm approaching this read, it doesn't address the fact that I'm clearly generating what content I *can* generate at this point for zakk being scum. it isn't fake content and you pushing that it is is not consistent with what I'm actually doing in this game, at all.

your reaction to me telling you that you're objectively wrong about all of this is to basically just shrug it off and go "lol, nope, it's my interpretation so I don't care what you say!!11". you're also completely side stepping the fact that your other read, on zmuffin, makes literally no sense... you wrote

I can't seriously believe that you think Nene's restriction is real and that you're staging this as wisdom/I are bullies for not going along with their cutesy rubbish. Build up the false narrative as much as you want, but I know you aren't this naive.

what even the fuck is this? even discounting the fact that the post wasn't serious, *why* would a scum-zmuffin in that position give even the slightest fuck about doing something like this? there is no reason he would, and I'm trying to ask you why he would do this so I can see what your thought process here even is, and you're sitting over there refusing to answer it. again, it's a really half-thought through argument.

I know you to be someone who tends to get caught up in weird things as town. I do not know you to be someone who is disingenuous about it, handwaves evidence suggesting you're wrong, or just makes things up in the way you're doing here. I'm writing this post in the hopes you can read it and see the point I'm actually trying to make here if you _seriously_ haven't been able to understand what I'm trying to say thus far, so don't just ignore it.

[pieguyn]

I've seen Varsoon's brand of craziness about a billion fucking times as town. this is a whole new level of craziness, to the point where I think it has to be deliberate.

Luna, after seeing my above post, how do you feel about your "very strong town read" on him?

[pieguyn]

it's not even just that, the way he's responding to Cakez is the same way. "zakk puts in much more effort as scum" does not warrant a whole discussion about "OMG how should we handle his slot???" and "will you just policy lynch him in every game until he does more as town" which isn't in any way related to what Cakez' original point actually was.

[pieguyn]

Still there

w h y

[pieguyn]

ftr I'm not reading him either way for that and I know of at least one game where Varsoon has soft claimed first-post as scum (in that instance he was soft claiming part of his actual role, but that wouldn't be much different).

do you have any reason based on his play?

[pieguyn]

So I'm not going crazy, good to know

if this continues, you will be in the rare position of being on the good side of my insane-tunnel mode. you should be happy that you might get to experience both sides of that consecutively in our first two games

[pieguyn]

B.) You're scum who is shifting onto easier wagons while playing up the points I made in A so that you don't have to lock yourself into a single case. This way, your options stay open, you can always pile onto the wagon with "Aha! That's the scummy thing I saw going on!" or you can fall off with "They're town, I was thinking XYZ but it isn't the case." It's a defensible position for exactly the reasons you gave already.

I repeat, why would I give even the slightest fuck about doing this?

if I have multiple scum reads, there would be nothing wrong or unusual with me moving my vote around between them to whoever I feel like at the time. you're acting like I need to go to all of this trouble to leave myself the option to switch between my scum reads if I want, and ignoring that this is something I could do *anyway*. this is why your argument comes off as ill-thought to me.

[pieguyn]

*why* would a scum-zmuffin in that position give even the slightest fuck about doing something like this? there is no reason he would

To buddy Nati?
To play the careless scum?
To post fillers and look busy?
To encourage Nati's gimmick and fill the thread with noise?
...

I can continue all day long. Just because you don't see something it doesn't mean that whoever does doesn't make sense and can't possibly have these thought processes.

you're giving me reasons behind zmuffin's treatment of Nene, which is fine. I (mostly, I'll get into this later. /magical secret reads) agree he would do that regardless of what his alignment is.

Varsoon's point, though, is that zmuffin, for some ~cosmic reason~, decided it would be a good idea to go out of his way to paint him as a bully... over a post which wasn't serious... because what Varsoon is writing about it is soooo important that zmuffin just needs to discredit him over it... despite the fact that how Nene is acting largely isn't relevant to anything... literally, what? I'd be fine with the angle if it was "you're trying to buddy Nene" or "I find how you're approaching Nene scummy", but not this "you're painting me as a bully" or "all you're doing is enabling bad play" nonsense he managed to come up with. I'd like to know what you think his thought process here actually was.

[pieguyn]

I still hate all of you.

[pieguyn]

You see...
What im currently seeing is a huge TvT between Varsoon and pie, and it's kinda draining my motivation to come in and have an opinion on anything coz reading multiple walls is tiring. I have a gut feeling that this isn't gonna end well, and idk what i can really do about it >.< because a lot of people are doing nothing / havent done anything and everyone's acting like they already found the scum team.

I still need to think a bit more, but as a quick point, if you read my posts and find you disagree with the arguments I'm making, that's fine. what you're doing here, though, is basically coming in and saying "oh great, a huge argument, it's probably T/T" which isn't productive at all, especially since I really do not think there is anything hard to read or parse there.

I'd be interested in hearing which arguments, specifically, you disagree with and why.

[pieguyn]

Okay i read now, but i dont think muffin calling Varsoon a bully was really meant to mean anything? i just thought he was just playing along with Nati

it wasn't, and that's exactly the issue.

Varsoon took that, despite it clearly not meaning anything, and spun it into it being some huge attack on him. I don't think something like that would have came about naturally; it read like more like he was searching for a "personal attack" to feign frustration at.

[pieguyn]

Why cant it come naturally?
Does someone call you a bully and the first thing that comes to your head is "nah they're just playing"

it was in response to 287, which seems *really* obviously not serious.

[pieguyn]

Luna, did I do something to you?

you seem way different from usual, and I don't even mean that in a scummy way, I mean you're making me feel like I did something horrible.

[pieguyn]

I am ok with Heat.

zakk, outside of zmuffin, who are you scum reading and why?

[pieguyn]

Natirasha has continued to be completely useless

Still not town reading thenewearth either

do you have any more in-depth reasoning behind any of this? it does not make me feel good at all that the reads you've given here seem to entirely be for people being "useless"/because they haven't done anything.

I have one scum read in the active players (you), I think Nati could be scum, and outside of that I don't have much of an idea. also, if you want to talk about people genuinely scum hunting, I find Heat's recent posts directed to you to be a very good instance of it.

[pieguyn]

Natirasha has continued to be completely useless

Still not town reading thenewearth either

do you have any more in-depth reasoning behind any of this? it does not make me feel good at all that the reads you've given here seem to entirely be for people being "useless"/because they haven't done anything.

I have one scum read in the active players (you), I think Nati could be scum, and outside of that I don't have much of an idea. also, if you want to talk about people genuinely scum hunting, I find Heat's recent posts directed to you to be a very good instance of it.

Cool so out of my scum reads and your scum reads

We have Natirasha in common

Why not join me on her?

Please just stop trying to suss me (I'll become obvtown or get night killed by D3, probably both, and maybe before) so why don't you

1. survey the playing field
2. figure out who is directly or indirectly generating alignment-indicative scumhuntable content
3. encourage those who aren't, to do just that, and lots of it
4. lynch those who refuse to play by those rules

Natirasha is completely refusing to play by those rules
If she is town she is arguably playing against her win condition by creating noise that is not alignment indicative or scumhuntable in the least

This should be really easy to understand and I don't understand why it's not, to you

Do you need some games from my past to meta? Would that help you?

I find it completely incomprehensible that instead of just answering my question and explaining why my point is wrong, you make this post going on and on trying to make sure everyone in the game is aware of 1. how stupid it is for me to be scum reading you, and 2. the idea that my read on you is invalid because I supposedly am not considering or addressing your reasoning for Nati being scum (which even if your premise was true would be a bullshit argument because my read on Nati has no relation whatsoever to my read on you). if you want me to explicitly comment on it, your point about Nati here is weak as shit; the thing that pinged me about her was something else entirely and I won't feel even slightly comfortable voting there unless I start having further reason to believe she is scum.

your play here seems very obviously manipulative to me, and this isn't the only time you've done this. if you want to try and link me games where you think you acted like this, though, go right ahead, since given the kind of shit I've seen recently I don't even know what the fuck anymore.

so with that out of the way: do you have any more in-depth reasoning behind your scum reads than "is doing nothing" or "is useless"?

[pieguyn]

is kuroi your friend pieguy

nope.

[pieguyn]

I'm just waiting for something

I'll do things when I need to

. . .

Spoiler:

if I told you I would kiss you and do ~this and that~ to you if you actually did things, would that make you more inclined to do things?

[pieguyn]

I have a lot of things I want to say but before I do that,

@beeboy:

can I specifically get Luna's opinion of AK? TIA.

[pieguyn]

I thought you were gone for some reason, my bad.

either way that's at least what I was hoping to hear from you. I would probably have gone insane if you had thought that catchup looked town after what happened in our last game.

[pieguyn]

I actually think TNE is town. this doesn't look like what I would expect her to do as scum: based on what I've seen of her she tries to emulate a very standard town game as scum, without trying to do anything out of the ordinary. I also thought her "LET ME GO AT MY OWN PACE" attitude which she expressed to me immediately after I started poking her looked kinda town; I can empathize with it and I don't really get the impression she's faking it.

rando could be scum.

zmuffin is 100% correct about AK's catchup. it was nothing but surface level comments and weak questions that don't lead anywhere. there's no depth of thought, nothing that shows she's actually reading what people are writing and thinking critically about it, and the only actual reason or point she gave for scum reading anyone throughout all of it was Varsoon's claim and zmuffin being scum for pushing a mass claim on D1; their justification for the latter was "town will be careful with what they're proposing" and "town wouldn't drop the massclaim immediately after suggesting it", which not only is really superficial but flat-out false (zmuffin had openly stated several times when he first pushed the mass claim that he knew it had like a 0% chance of happening). their reaction to zmuffin in their last few posts was similarly bad and read more as obfuscation than anything.

also, even outside of my scum read on zakk (which is independent to this), I am noting that zakk immediately waked in here and called them town after that catchup, when it wasn't even slightly town.

[pieguyn]

And yes obviously since I think you are town I am trying to manipulate you into thinking I am town and I have been doing exactly this since my very first post in this game

It's not like I'm trying to hide it

Idk why you think honesty is scummy

if you wanted to try and convince me you were town, you didn't need to write all of the words you wrote in 477. you could easily have said anything along the lines of "I don't have much of a better reason, I'm a slow early game player" or "not having well-thought out scum reads isn't a good reason for you to scum read me" or anything along those lines.

instead, you

1. told me to stop trying to scum read you,
2. because I had no reason not to join you on Nene at that point,
3. because you think you'll look obvtown and get killed by N3, as if that's somehow a reason for me not to scum read you,
4. and because Nene is so obviously useless and so obviously not doing anything to help town,
5. and that I haven't thought through my read enough to be able to see how obvious this was.

that isn't "I'm trying to convince you I'm town so we can work together". the intent there reads as "I'm trying to make it look like you have no good reason to be on me over Nati so that no one pays any attention to your read on me". while I'm at it, that bit at the end about not knowing why I think "honesty is scummy" is the exact same thing.

the approach you took there towards the Nene read also comes off as contradictory to me. as far as I understand it, later in this post that I quoted you admitted the majority of your Nene read is playstyle-based, in other words it's mostly an issue you are personally raising with the way she is playing the game... so where is this "it should really be obvious" attitude even coming from? do you expect that since you take issue with how Nene is playing, everyone else should as well without question? despite the fact that I hadn't expressed any annoyance at her play style at all by that point despite it being a major focus, and in fact just spent a few posts yelling at Varsoon for doing just that?

and if your scum reads in general are weak, why even bother focusing so strongly on that one scum read on Nene? usually if you think a bunch of people are town and are scum hunting mostly through POE, you don't care as much who gets lynched unless you have strong reason to believe one in particular is scum, which you have just admitted you don't.

what am I missing here?

[pieguyn]

Can i feel proud i arrived a tthis conclusion before you did? ^_^

you can!

now that I've explained my issue with AK's catch-up, would you be open to voting them?

p-edit: I'm tossing up whether I want to continue on zakk, or if I want to go for AK instead.

[pieguyn]

vote: AK

[pieguyn]

Who here is any good at reading FA anyway? i can't tell personally i only know the hydra hasnt done anything i consider townie yet.

do you disagree with what I wrote in 579? I take issue with their catch-up regardless of meta.

Kuroko is dead null. I can see why people are taking issue with his posts, I'm not sure yet on whether it's because he's scum or if he's just weird.

[pieguyn]

If they are dead null why did you just vote them O.o?

AK is Akane and Kurome, Kuroko is Kuroi I think.

what about AK's catchup did you like, and do you disagree with what I wrote in 579?

[pieguyn]

The way she developed reads throughout it felt natural and town to me.

it's really, really easy to fake natural-sounding read progressions in catch-ups (hi Luna). none of the reads she had there are close to unfakeable in my eyes.

can you give me an example of a specific read she had that you thought looked town?

[pieguyn]

clarification since that might have been somewhat confusing: in general I'd highly advise looking at the actual content behind the reads and not the progression of the reads or how the reads came about. it's easy to look through a thread and call some town-looking posts town, point out some posts that look vaguely scummy, and there's your reads.

what I find more telling is the actual content of the reads themselves, and on that note AK's reads are really lacking. see what I wrote about her not having any really good reason to scum read anyone, and what zmuffin was asking earlier about her scum reads.

[pieguyn]

also, page top.

~

[pieguyn]

>.>

Are you kidding me. Its surface level comments and catchup as a start ooint for talking with people for me. I'll do that in all my catchup posts which I usuallly never need to do unless in large games. I made y reads clear I read 20 fucking pages and commented on every single important matter in the game , I made my point about why I'm scumreading heat clear and I explained my other reads like zakk and zmuffin's

My justification for that FOS is perfectly correct and I think zmuffin is scummy for it.

and what about my fucking reaction to him was bad? he claimed he is interacting with me, he asked questions that I answered completly in detail but when he reached my question he doesn't want to answer it?

I think your town now respectfully back of

~Akame

the fact that you did it as a starting point so that people could talk to you is irrelevant to how shallow it is. you don't say "I'm going to post things for people to talk to me about" and then that magically makes all of your commentary worse somehow; these two things are not related.

I'm well aware that you explained your reasoning for scum reading e.g. zmuffin. my issue is that the reasoning you explained was really weak, and you seem to have either missed or are deliberately ignoring my explanation for why your zmuffin read was weak. your reasoning for scum reading Varsoon was similarly weak, and you didn't even explain the scum read on Heat, you just quoted one post of his and said he was scummy. you answered zmuffin's first two questions, but then when he asked you another question in order to clarify it, you called it "nitpicking" and did this whole "I'm just trying to interact with them, why me" routine, which is why your reaction read like obfuscation.

[pieguyn]

Pie was here when I posted these stuff

where the fuck she went >.>

if you try to push activity tells on me, btw, I will lynch you and I will have no second thoughts or regrets about it.

[pieguyn]

"push" doesn't mean "scum read me for", it just means "point out".

you seem more interested in trying to make everyone in the game think that I haven't read your posts than actually trying to understand why I take issue with your posts.

[pieguyn]

My initial expressed reason for FOS'ing zmuffing is not weak. I didn't miss your point. I made my side of view clear, he shrugged it of to fast. I can't see a town player adverstise such a thing with claiming he has 0% hope for it. whenever I saw one a scuim did it

this is my issue.

I think if this is your major point for zmuffin being scum, your read here is incredibly weak. how is him claiming he has 0% hope for a mass claim actually happening in any way relevant? why would that be a reason for preventing him from bringing up a mass claim? there are a bunch of possibilities here you apparently haven't considered, the most obvious one being "he thinks it would be a good idea but is resigned to the fact no one will do it".

it doesn't make sense and it doesn't read like you've thought through this read at all, it reads like you made it up, like you thought it'd be a good-sounding reason to scum read him and there it was.

I NEVER SAID I'M SCUM READING VARSOON

you clearly expressed in your first catch-up post that you took issue with the timing of Varsoon's claim, and your reasoning for doing so was as weak as your reasoning for scum reading zmuffin.

@Varson why you spymaptized with zmuffin about his negative utilty thing "with its suck to suck" or something like that but you didn't claim right after ward? I don't like the timing of your claim >.>

why does him sympathizing with zmuffin about both of them being negative-utility necessitate a claim? it doesn't, and I'm having a lot of trouble thinking of ways you could have arrived at this conclusion. your expectation that Varsoon should have claimed here is entirely arbitrary, and again it reads like you just made it up.

your reads in No Inglish made a lot more sense than this; in that game I remember thinking you were probably town at the point when you pointed out someone pushing someone over a "slip" that, if true, would have been a town slip, not a scum slip. I don't want you to respond to this post if you'll flip out over it; step back, calm down, and when you feel like you can, answer my questions in more depth and explain where your reads here are coming from.

[pieguyn]

Meanwhile we're wasting pages here of you arguing about signing heads, instead of... you know, finding scum.

hence my paragraph at the end of my above post.

FA, if scum, is likely to just spam the thread with tons of posts in order to look like she has a point without actually addressing what I'm writing about her. I don't know if that's what she's trying to do to us, but either way, I would prefer for my questioning of her not to continue in the way that it has been.

[pieguyn]

FA, you haven't answered anything about what I'm actually asking you and you're misreading my posts if you think I said you were spamming the game. you're doing the same thing to Luna.

if you're town and you're this upset to the point where you're misunderstanding what my concerns are to this extent, I recommend that you step back for a while until you've calmed down and then read my posts again.

[pieguyn]

now question me and I will quote myself cuase you know your not reading my posts cuase this is not fun the way your playing me here >.>

I am telling you that you haven't. I also don't really think that if I go back and quote what I'm asking you about and explain to you how what you're telling me is missing my point, you're composed enough to be able to recognize it. this is why I want you to step back and calm down first before I continue with this discussion.

[pieguyn]

Unvote

I'm starting to think that FA's just misunderstood townie ^_^;;
This is my current stance but i dont know how to read FA so if beeboy wants to override this stance he can and i wont complain.

absolutely not, btw.

let me handle this; as I've told you, flooding the thread with posts so that people will think you have a point or town read you due to "frustration" is a somewhat common scum strategy and from what I've seen of FA I believe it's what FA does as scum. you shouldn't town read her for that.

[pieguyn]

pieguy, you know kuroi is being lynched today, right?

i mean, barring something magical coming along that makes someone else a better lynch

when are you going to vote him?

if he continues posting like he has been, I'd probably be willing to lynch him.

[pieguyn]

Wisdom, what the fuck is wrong with your reads?

none of what AK posted is even remotely close to town, and I find it scummy as fuck that FA is being this ridiculously toxic for no good reason *even after* I told her what she was doing wasn't helpful and to come back after she calmed down a bit. I can understand some toxicity, but at this point I have to think she's doing it deliberately in order to hopefully get town read as "frustrated town". her reads are all still really shallow, and she is probably going to come in here and make 1000 posts about "I'VE EXPLAINED MY READS AND THEY AREN'T SHALLOW GO FIND SOMEONE ELSE TO HARASS", but if you actually try and look at all of her posts where she gives reasoning and look at what the reasoning behind her scum reads are, there's hardly anything there. it's nowhere near town and I've seen much greater depth of thought from town-FA in the past (in a fucking game where you couldn't even speak in English, no less).

and you think HM somehow looks *worse* there?

WTF?

[pieguyn]

like I cannot emphasize enough how much of a problem that is. she tries to spin me pushing her as "harassing" in order to give the impression I don't have any valid point about her.

zmuffin, you at least are seeing this shit, right?

[pieguyn]

oh my fucking god, fine.

unvote:

I _really_ need a mafia break.

[pieguyn]

pieguy can you tell me why i dont like kuroi

I don't think I can. I thought what he posted about zakk was really eh and I agree with what someone else said about the last line of 280 being bad, but I could maybe see it coming from town if I squint and look at it weird.

he is one of the people who I'm mostly waiting to see more from.

[pieguyn]

I asked you to ask me the questions your claiming I missed to let me quote them back

I asked you to talk about your HM read

I wrote at least four questions directed to you throughout 641. your response was to not answer any of them and instead go on a tangent about "my read isn't weak, hunting motivation is the only way to scum hunt in this game". when I told you what you were writing wasn't answering my questions, and that you were misreading my posts (as another example outside of the questions, you constantly mistook me warning HM about how you play as scum as me claiming it was what you were doing here) and to step back and look at it after you cooled off a bit, you started saying I was harassing you because I was poking you over questions you had answered already.

sooooo

/shrug

[pieguyn]

thanks zmuffin for expressing what I wanted to say in a lot less words.

[pieguyn]

pie you're the only one seeing that "shit" as you've decided to look at everything in this game backwards. zakk does something town? No, he does it because it's a scum agenda to make us think it's town. FA shows town frustration? No, it's FA deliberately being toxic to avoid posting. Your stances are exhausting tbh.

I am somewhat exhausted rn, so sorry if the tone of that post came off as hostile.

what I really want to know (and what set me off) is how you can possibly think HM comes off as worse in that exchange. I thought beeboy suspecting FA due to her treatment of him was pretty reasonable, and I thought Luna's treatment of FA in general looked town. she correctly identified a lot of the issue with FA's posts, and actually put a significant amount of effort into trying to argue why. this would not be necessary to do as scum: if I was scum, looking in on that from the outside, I would most likely think along the lines of "well, even if they're scum reading me, no one is going to give a shit about anything that slot writes. next", and it'd be too exhausting to bother arguing about it so I just wouldn't. I think the fact Luna actually tried to cut through that looks town, and nothing about it came off as malicious to me.

I still think your town read on zakk is incorrect, and while it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if AK is town I still continue to strongly believe "frustration" is a really really poor reason for town reading her, since to the extent it was done here, it's really easily faked. I literally have had to deal with scum who have feigned frustration in that way while constantly misrepresenting someone's posts in order to look like they had a point in my most recent game with zmuffin, and FA is more than capable of playing that way as scum - it's not a ridiculous scum tactic. if there was more to that and there was a specific reason it looked like town frustration instead of frustration in general, I wish you would have pointed it out.

[pieguyn]

zmuffin

can you talk to me about this, too? if you've explained it already, link please because I probably missed it in the 9000 posts that happened recently.

[pieguyn]

That's not how it looked to me. Luna cared more about making FA appear useless and/or scummy than actually trying to figure her out while beeboy tried to shift all responsibility of the fact he should be seeing this is town-FA away.

I don't think this is a particularly fair criticism. I think you're starting from the point of thinking FA was obvtown and that people should have been able to understand what she was writing and see that she was town; I can say this is pretty definitively not true, as indicated by the fact that *both* me and Luna and I think some other people were pointing out how what she was writing wasn't actually addressing what we were asking her. as far as reasoning went, I thought beeboy's "she's putting way too much effort into discrediting town reads on me when she supposedly isn't even scum reading me" was actually a pretty solid point that I thought likely had merit (although not as strong as her reads) and didn't read at all like shifting responsibility or anything along those lines.

as for Luna: why do you think scum-Luna would even need to do this? I repeat, from a scum POV, given what FA was posting I would have basically just taken it for granted that she wasn't going to be listened to, ever. it didn't come off to me like she felt like she had to discredit FA, it came off to me like she was annoyed with how FA was treating her (and everyone in the game in general) and felt like she absolutely had to have as many people as possible seeing her POV on what FA was posting (her interjecting herself into an unrelated interaction with Varsoon is just one example of this I could find).

[pieguyn]

after seeing 780, I think Wisdom could be scum.

I seriously do not have enough energy to get into this right now, so bug me about it tomorrow.

[pieguyn]

after seeing 780, I think Wisdom could be scum.

lol
I knew it was the wrong thing bothering answering

please don't give me this attitude. I'm tired and that was simply my initial gut call after seeing that post, nothing more.

are you just going to ignore 791?

[pieguyn]

after that, definitely

you really can't see that after the shitstorm that was the past 12 hours, I'd be really exhausted and paranoid and not thinking clearly about everything I'm seeing immediately?

please try to work with me here. I'm sure you would want me to be on the same page as you especially on a read like HM, right?

[pieguyn]

I could buy into this after reading zMuffin's recent posts, they're scummy as shit and his massclaim push earlier was terrible.

um, Cakez?

Wisdom's reasoning for scum reading zmuffin is really poor (the fact that my first inclination was that it was disingenuous should give you an idea of this). I also think if you think zmuffin's recent posts are scummy, you're approaching your read on him wrong; him being cagey about his reasoning for his reads does not mean he has no reasoning or that he's making his reads up, it just means he's working towards a different goal right at this second than "elaborate on all of my reads immediately". you don't necessarily elaborate on all of your reads when you get them, you might choose to do other things and see what happens first. all it means is he's doing the latter.

I think what he's doing here is fairly typical from him as town, and also, why do you think scum-zmuffin would play like this? do you think it's out of necessity, or... ? because if I can say another thing, zmuffin is absolutely not the kind of player who needs to do things like this as scum. he might do it as an attempt to emulate his town game, but he definitely would not think "I don't know how to look town, let's push a mass claim" or "I don't have any reads, let's make up a read on Kuroi and say Wisdom is bussing him".

I still don't know why you or anyone else finds the massclaim push earlier scummy at all, because it really isn't.

[pieguyn]

I've never seen zMuffin's play outside of PYP 6 which I just watched from the outside and didn't pay too close attention to, so I don't know the intricacies of his play. I'm just going with what I generally know of mafia.

I don't mean from a meta POV, I mean it directly, i.e. "what do you think scum-zmuffin has to actually gain by playing in the way he is playing here?". I don't think it really makes sense to push him over how he's pushing his reads unless you think he finds it difficult to come up with actual viable fake reads (and if this is the case I can say this would never happen); if it's something else, walk me through it.

I think that by and large, people who get caught up on "outing town roles" like you're doing here are largely misguided, but I'm not going to argue that. I actually would have agreed to a D1 massclaim if I thought it had any chance of going through, since it's theoretically really not as bad as the majority of people think. (alternatively, think what Rob did in Borderlands where he threw a fit over not wanting to out his role and invented a bunch of bullshit reasons it'd be better for him to not claim, none of which were true, I explained why they weren't true, he went "LEL NOPE" and then proceeded to not get any more results the whole game anyway . . .)

[pieguyn]

pie can be scum as well. he is litteally buddying with wisdom and white knighting people for shallow reasons.

he ignored my question about his read on HM but answered the same question later to wisdom

that was the only question I asked from him

if you think I'm "buddying" Wisdom, you aren't reading my posts.

if you're expecting any further response to this, you're wrong. also, use my correct pronoun.

[pieguyn]

Pie, you're thinking far too much in low level play terms. Like, "Scum have to play as if they are town" and that's it.
Like, yeah, if you default to Occam's Razor, scum zMuffin does have less to gain from playing in that way.
But if you default to Occam's Razor, then you're also allowing yourself to get snowed by players playing in ways that are contrary to that sort of 'only playing in a way that clearly benefits them' reading approach. Which, speaking of, if the 'suboptimal' scum play gets him town-read, then it wasn't so sub-optimal, was it?

I don't town read zmuffin for how he's playing this. to be clear, my stance (which I have stated already) is that he is either town or is doing this as scum because he thinks he would do it as town. AKA, it's null.

it isn't a scum approach, though, and you and Cakez are misguided to push it as one.

[pieguyn]

you called him scum for expressing his pov on you and having a different view on stuff from you which I'm not going to open why that sucks if its legit cuase thats not my point

in your next post right after you described him as a scum read of yours you apeased to him in a way you know he is town and you tried to pretend he was the one who wasn't cooperating and stopped discussing stuff with throwing a shallow read,

its pretty fake.

to be clear, I didn't take issue with the fact his read was the opposite of mine. I took issue with his reasoning. I might get into this later, if it becomes relevant, but I'm assuming you'll be gone by then so.

the second post was directly in response to him saying he was ignoring me because I called him scum. I don't really know why you think I'm the one who wasn't cooperating there. my goal there was to set that aside for a bit and attempt to cooperate with him, ignoring how stupid it even is for him to be ignoring me because I called him scum.

I don't know if this will change your view on anything, but here it is.

[pieguyn]

@Pieguyn: ...seems like it could be a scum approach real easy, though. I'm not saying it definitely is--I don't have a vote there, obviously.

it could be, in theory, but that doesn't mean that it is. the point here is, you're reading way too much into something that's null.

[pieguyn]

ya this isn't getting anywhere.

[pieguyn]

idk
I'm starting to rethink my townread on zakk tho
Nati/zakk/random maybe

you gave me all of this shit earlier because "lelel whenever zakk does something town, no it's scum pushing an agenda". now, you're starting to reconsider your town read on zakk and you're thinking he could be scum.

the way you're approaching me this game is completely off.

[pieguyn]

I'm 75% sure on Wisdom/zakk (and I could see Kuroi being the third, actually).

Wisdom is probably going to flood the thread with posts about how I'm full of "moonlogic" in order to push past this, but I am _not_ letting this go. I will have more to say about this later tonight.

[pieguyn]

zmuffin, what do you think?

does that mean I'm on the wrong track and he's doing this to play around me for a day, or do you think that really is just half-assed distancing?

would you go for a Wisdom wagon over a Kuroi wagon?

[pieguyn]

He would, would you though? I mean, I think you know I am town despite what you're saying.

I don't think you're town at all and I don't really know why you would be expecting me to read you as town, given your response to my reach out earlier was to essentially say all of my reads were horrible, that all I've been doing this game has been spouting moonlogic, and that you don't find me worth interacting with because I had read one of your posts as scum.

[pieguyn]

i dont really think zakk is scum (i have read your stuff, i just dont think youre looking at what hes writing in the right way)

vote: Wisdom

I may switch to Kuroi later, but at this second I still have fears that he's just being really really lynchbait-y.

[pieguyn]

I don't need to be nice to you for you to townread me, pie

it's not an issue of that. why are you even expecting anything good from me this game, given the feelings you've expressed towards my play the entire game up to now?

[pieguyn]

you've gone from "your reads are horrible and I'm disregarding you for the rest of the game" to "I think you're misguided and I'll try to convince you to get back on the right track", but if the latter was really how you were approaching me, you wouldn't have just handwaved everything I was posting earlier; you might have tried to ignore me and let things sort themselves out naturally, or you might have taken note of my reads for later despite disagreeing with them, but you sure as hell wouldn't have went "I don't give a fuck about you or what you think, you're beyond hope if you think I'm scum and I'm ignoring you from here on out" like you did. you would if you were hoping to leverage my incorrect read on FA in order to get around me for a day, though.

[pieguyn]

Fwiw I never said I'm disregarding you for the rest of the game nor that I'll try to fix your misguided reads, but if it helps you creating fables

800 and 814 would seem to imply you no longer think I'm worth responding to because my reads have gone so bad that I believe you are scum, no?

yet, here you are trying to appeal to me that you're town and that I should be able to see it.

[pieguyn]

for those who can't see the obvious, he is faking one of these mindsets. he either was hoping to discredit and push past what I was writing about him/zmuffin, or he didn't truly believe I was actually such a lost cause as he was claiming I was.

moreover, we've reached the phase where he's realized he can't survive unless he spins everything I post as "moonlogic".

[pieguyn]

this game is exhausting.

vote: Kuroi

[pieguyn]

Wisdom is probably still scum but I don't feel as strongly about it as I did, zakk I guess might be town.

TNE wagon is still really bad.

[pieguyn]

I have no clue why everyone in this game seems to be entirely incapable of answering direct questions. this is I think the second? or third? time someone has got pissed off at me questioning them and left.

[pieguyn]

because it looked like scum replacing out because he was frustrated he wasn't getting townread

is this actually a thing? I've had games where I was scum and replaced out because I just couldn't handle it, but that was more based on my RL than a feeling of "nothing I can do will be able to get me town read".

[pieguyn]

meh, actually, zakk's replace out just looks like what I did as scum when I couldn't handle the game. I don't get the impression he was behind or struggling to keep up, though, which ???

[pieguyn]

ooook yeah, Kuroi should be the lynch today.

[pieguyn]

I might be okay with lynching kuroi after all

Stop defending me. Please.

when I saw this post, the first thing that popped into my head was "it would be hilarious if scum didn't have daytalk and he openly told Wisdom to stop defending him in the game thread". there must be something wrong with me. <_>

I'll be back tomorrow.

[pieguyn]

Wisdom was saying he would be okay with lynching Kuroi, and Kuroi posted an odd post about defending when Wisdom when there was no defending going on. How was this meant to be said in the scum topic? Its just a ridiculous/sarcastic reaction I believe. Or just Kuroixhf not reading the thread.

tis a joke.

[pieguyn]

This is not scum theatre.
If one is scum its not with the other.
That means if Kuroi is scum then Wisdom is likely town, and vice versa.
Or they are both town.

I don't agree with this, though. I don't see anything in that that's strong enough to warrant a "not scum together" read; that was fairly weak as far as interactions go.

[pieguyn]

to sum up the problem with Kuroi in one sentence, all he's been doing for the last I-don't-know-how-many pages has been just dragging everyone pushing him into pointless arguments that don't accomplish anything and are designed more to make him look better than the people pushing him, i.e obfuscation. I really hope I don't have to actually explain this to people, since it's patently obvious if you so much as read his posts. nothing he's written in that entire sea of posts is even slightly compelling; all he's doing is nitpicking semantics.

I think Wisdom is probably also scum and I'll get into this tomorrow.

[pieguyn]

I don't think any of his arguments make him look better though

I think he thinks what he's doing will make him look better, and just isn't realizing how forced it's coming across. that's kinda sorta the entire point.

Why do you believe Wisdom and Kuroi are tied, when Wisdom is specifically trying to keep that door open of them being possibly aligned.

It doesn't make sense to say "Yeah, I could be scum with X, you shouldn't rule that out" if they were both scum together.

this is a really poor line of thinking. it's really common for scum to say things like that hoping for people to (as you're doing here) town read them because "lel what scum would link themselves to their partner like that?!?". or even outside of that, it's common for scum to say things like that hoping for people to look at it and think "look how objective they're being, that's a town tell". moreover, it's a statement that in the grand scheme of things is fairly meaningless, so there's no real downside to making it.

[pieguyn]

Its actually not a poor line of thinking. Unless you want to just open yourself to WIFOM to make connections to everyone in the game. Strategically speaking if you are scumread by every player it makes sense to tie yourself to every possible player in a way that makes you possible scum with anyone, so that if you get lynched its hard to create association ties with everyone. The interactions between those two didn't seem like scum distancing/bussing. I am going to call that as that for now, you may continue to disagree for whatever reason.

I'm not claiming that it's necessarily a scum/scum interaction. just that in this case, that interaction *could* very easily be scum/scum, and so it's really fucking stupid to town read one of them on the basis they can't be scum together. my scum reads on Wisdom and Kuroi are independent from one another.

you seem to be under the impression that, had Wisdom-scum made that post like that, if he were to flip people would go back and look at it and think Kuroi was his partner. this isn't the case at all and it isn't an assumption that has any ground in reality; what would be more likely to happen is that people would look at it and dismiss it as mostly WIFOM, _as you've said in this exact post_. this is exactly what I meant when I said it's largely an irrelevant statement - it means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

this is why I need a mafia break.

[pieguyn]

It is not easily scum/scum I don't know why you continue to insist on this. I could pull that argument forward with any look at an ISO of a flipped scum to discredit associations between two players. Its just "WIFOM" is an argument to just dismiss it. There are things that might be WIFOM, but not everything is WIFOM.

I don't like that you continue to say that my assumptions are not grounded in reality, when I have had quite a bit of experience in this game.

If its largely irrelevant, why do you need to continue this mock debate? These are my reads and how I am forming them. I don't see why you want me to ignore my own reasoning, when your just saying it COULD be just WIFOM.

You may need a mafia break if you believe everyone should see and play the game the same way as you.

are you even fucking reading my post?

like you clearly aren't, because nowhere did I say the point I was arguing was WIFOM or irrelevant: my point is that the interaction is null because realistically most people wouldn't see it as telling, they'd just see it as a minor interaction and even if they read into it they'd likely think it could easily be WIFOM'ed.

your point, on the other hand, is that Wisdom isn't scum with Kuroi because for some reason Wisdom would think it'd be a good fucking idea to go out of his way to convince people he and Kuroi weren't partners, ignoring how obviously contrived it would be... one statement saying "you shouldn't rule me out as scum with Kuroi" has no effect on the game, it's an irrelevant statement, there is no reason he *wouldn't* think to make it as scum, and you somehow turning this into me saying the point I was arguing is irrelevant is laughable

what you're saying in the last sentence is basically "I don't care if what I'm writing is objectively wrong, I'm choosing to form reads in this way and you have no right to question it!!11". oh, such a pinnacle of town play, I have so much to learn from studying the way in which you approach games.

[pieguyn]

zmuffin, can you hold me and tell me everything will be OK? Christ I need someone to save me from how completely nonsensical this game is.

[pieguyn]

@Pieguyn I am at a loss for words.
Was my post really worthy of this kind of reaction? I don't know if I sounded dismissive in that, but my thoughts were I just disagree with your assessment of the situation that we talked about. I am sorry I don't agree with your opinion. I know some things can be WIFOM or just Null, my thoughts and still inclination was that indicated the two weren't aligned, even though the conversation topic and discussion wasn't worth commenting, it was how they discussed that I think indicates something.

I have never claimed my play is pinnacle of town play.

I apologize if you took my statement as offensive or insulting. I play this game in a different way than you, and I am sorry if I am being dismissive.

I will drop this subject though. I see your points, ill consider it more going forward.

Again, sorry.

ugh now I just feel bad.

I mostly was set off by you reading "Wisdom would make that interaction as a Kuroi partner because it's an interaction that in the grand scheme of things is largely irrelevant" and interpreting it as "this is an irrelevant point, but I think Wisdom would make that interaction as a Kuroi partner". add to that you claiming you have so much experience with the game and yeah, it did read as really dismissive. that kind of thing is why it's much better to rely on objective logic when forming reads on people... the entire point was so that you could look at it again and either point out where I'm going wrong in my argument or stop to consider that you might be on the wrong track with the read.

I'm sorry if I come across as jaded, I've had to deal with a *lot* of people doing this shit who (unlike you) continue to not give even the slightest fuck about arguments suggesting their read might be wrong even *after* people point out this is what they're doing, and it's like beating my head against a wall. the fact that you even made this post makes me feel somewhat better.

[pieguyn]

pretty much what i'm thinking is most likely

i think he latched onto the whole "double standards" thing and saw what he thought was an opportunity for a "sensible" point of attack

in the first place, the zakk wagon actually has some serious weight to it; why is he hopping off it unless he thinks zakk is town? he clearly doesn't think that (according to 1111, where it's just that i'm "scummier"). yes, town can vanity wagon sometimes, but town vanity wagons occur when the alternatives don't appeal to them...

i think his zakk read grew stale and he didn't want to look bad by sticking to it for no reason (both in case it goes through - i think zakk is more likely town than scum, in case it wasn't obvious - and in case it collapses and he's just left there not in the greatest position), so he sought fresher pastures in a way he thinks doesn't look bad

the first point about the "double standards" is exactly the thing that pinged me about his interaction with you. it was really horrible and I agree it read more like scum looking for a "sensible" point of attack than town actually believing they've found some reasonable contradiction somewhere.

I didn't read it in-depth after that because as you can probably tell I'm preeettty tired, so that's my major issue with it.

[pieguyn]

as much as I think Wisdom is scum, he's correct about rando; all he even did was walk in and agree with three reads that are basically consensus scum reads. in fact, I've found rando's posts really off for a while now, but I wanted to see what he would come up with when he actually got back and formed reads.

I find the zmuffin read in particular hilarious, given he just got out of a game a month or so ago where zmuffin correctly spent an entire game day hard pushing a lynch on scum and shutting everything else down so that people wouldn't get distracted from the scum lynch, while he sat there calling zmuffin "dodgy" and saying that the scum in question was "making some good points".

I would also like him to explain which specifically of zakk's posts came off as "awkward" to him and why.

[pieguyn]

also in case it isn't obvious I think TNE is town and I think all of this about her "active lurking" is something scum are using in order to come up with fake scum reads, since it's a kind of thing that's really easy to pick up on and push. rando has done this, too, but he isn't the only one (Varsoon immediately comes to mind and probably some others).

I would be interested in seeing if anyone can refute the point I made in 579, though it is a meta point.

[pieguyn]

I am overgamed, I'll get to this later. until then,

vote: rando

[pieguyn]

I have never seen Varsoon try this hard to lynch anyone, _ever_. I actually am very _not_ satisfied with it.

[pieguyn]

also pie, should I take your random vote as a sign that you're not scumreading me anymore?

I still am to some extent, I've just been really tired recently. I actually plan on explaining my read on you in full at some point.

[pieguyn]

it will take a lot more than pushing a read I agree with to get you on my good side. also, independently of how you're reading him, I feel more strongly that rando is scum than you.

[pieguyn]

sigh.

Wisdom, stay, plz. :/

[pieguyn]

Sorry, I never replace out, but I can't play with her. Unless she replaces out I'm going.

I'm literally just ignoring everything that slot posts from now on if Kurome is staying in.

you can join me, and if you get stressed out, I'll massage your shoulders until you feel better. /smiles

[pieguyn]

randomidget has been consistently disappearing for days on end while posting everywhere but here (and recent events in this game aren't the cause of it because it was happening before that)

yep.

[pieguyn]

I don't want to lynch Akame. I want them out of the game, but realistically, they're almost certainly town and it would just be wasting a lynch. I do not want to do this when I feel pretty confident that rando/Kuroi is 2/2 on scum.

[pieguyn]

though I'm interested in where Ceph is getting his Akame scum read from.

their play makes literally no sense, but I severely doubt this is a scum trait.

[pieguyn]

all i want to know
is why

why anything

for Kuroi, look through zmuffin's ISO, he's been talking about it for a while and has made at least one case in detail. there's also my 1149, but really I just agree with everything zmuffin is writing about him.

for rando, his scum reads have been really bad (see my 1251) and I believe his lurking here is strategic.

[pieguyn]

um, wow.

[pieguyn]

*if* rando is town, I'd feel pretty OK with chain lynching Kuroi's slot and Wisdom's slot and calling it there, ftr.

[pieguyn]

it wasn't intended to be a threat, but OK then.

[pieguyn]

MathBlade, if scum, likely had no choice but to vote rando regardless of rando's alignment.

[pieguyn]

I cannot believe that I actually had to just read 2 pages of nothing but MathBlade and Varsoon arguing.

rando and MathBlade are still both scum.

[pieguyn]

Cephrir is on random. Just didn't use while name.

hes in my votecount...

i just have a special line in my procedure

CASE WHEN V.userName = 'Cephrir' THEN 'Pumbaa' ELSE V.userName END

this is one of the best things I've ever seen.

[pieguyn]

I am ok with not actioning.

[pieguyn]

UNVOTE:

I live to serve

if you keep acting like this, you're gonna give me PTSD from LLD in that god-awful PYP game.

I don't mean this in an alignment-indicative way, ftr, I mean it like "OH GOD PLEASE STOP IT". x_x

[pieguyn]

unvote:

[pieguyn]

I'm pretty sure I already said this: I'm OK with not actioning.

[pieguyn]

vote: rando (L-1)

[pieguyn]

lmfao, TNE picked Tail Red. I was wondering if anyone else picked her.

[pieguyn]

vote: MathBlade

[pieguyn]

kyahahahahaha

VOTE: CAKEZ-KUN

[pieguyn]

unvote:

[pieguyn]

the TNE kill was obviously a vig, it's obvious who it is, and yes it was a shameful vig shot.

said vig needs to be on MathBlade tonight, and even if you have a penalty for actioning again, I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.

[pieguyn]

OOOK, you're saying that despite the fact it's obvious Cakez is one of the scum, which you have already straight up acknowledged by voting along with the guilty on him.

[pieguyn]

that's L-1, someone unvote. I don't want to end today until we've coordinated who is actioning.

[pieguyn]

Varsoon, I see you, you need to unvote right the fuck now. I do not want Cakez at L-1 until we have sorted everything out for tonight.

[pieguyn]

grazie.

I'm ok with not actioning again, though I might change this later.

[pieguyn]

in case it isn't obvious, no one else vote yet, either. Cakez will self-hammer here if he arrives after being placed at L-1.

this should be common sense, but I'm saying it anyway.

[pieguyn]

MOD: I'm V/LA until Monday evening. Cabd/penguin wedding hype~

[pieguyn]

i want anyone else who might have a vig ability to claim immediately

no, i don't care if you're like "durr i want to keep my role hidden", this is necessary and i would probably lynch anyone who tries to claim one after today

[pieguyn]

mathblade, are you claiming multiple shot?

[pieguyn]

Varsoon and MathBlade, whoever among you is town, you're being really stupid.

math, if you don't full claim your entire role (including specifics, i.e. # shots and overuse penalty), I'm lynching you. fuck your idea of "keeping my role hidden", because bluntly, in the way you're doing it here, it isn't useful and only serves to obfuscate. and Varsoon, I don't even disagree math looks really bad here, but your "they have poor judgement and need to die" is really horrible and my initial inclination from it is that you're scum trying to take advantage of someone doing stupid shit to ram a lynch down everyone's throats.

[pieguyn]

also, anyone else who might have a vig ability needs to claim. I need this acknowledged - if you don't claim one, I will assume you don't have one, and it will be _your_ responsibility if some stupid bullshit happens later that would have been avoided if you had just claimed it.

this situation is somewhat unusual because the nice thing about someone faking vig is that a real vig can shoot them overnight, but at this point there is no reason not to just do it now, since the game will be over.

[pieguyn]

to clarify, if math doesn't full claim their entire role, I'm lynching them d3 after Cake-kun.

[pieguyn]

then you aren't just soft cc'ing vig really really hard?

then if you try to go back later and be like "lel ima vig and that's why i hard pushed math", I'll policy you?

[pieguyn]

K. if anyone else has a vig ability, it should still be claimed, btw.

[pieguyn]

I'm well aware. it would be pretty hilarious if Cake-kun actually was a scum vig, though.

[pieguyn]

i don't think GIF does "one-shot vig, penalty is death" and then "two-shot vig, penalty is death" in this setup - i would expect he would make all vigs one-shot. i dont think GIF does one random role with two penalties attached to it, either and even that is ignoring that it also makes no sense to have "you become hated" and "you die" as concurrent penalties

[pieguyn]

i don't think GIF does "one-shot vig, penalty is death" and then "two-shot vig, penalty is death" in this setup - i would expect he would make all vigs one-shot. i dont think GIF does one random role with two penalties attached to it, either and even that is ignoring that it also makes no sense to have "you become hated" and "you die" as concurrent penalties

@all of this: why; also who's to say it's not a given fakeclaim

you do realize all of that is me saying math's claim is fake?

to explain one thing (on mobile so a bit more concise than usual), math is literally claiming that if they use the vig 3 times, they become hated, *and* they die. it should be obvious this is redundant and not something GIF would bother to put in the setup.

[pieguyn]

+ GIF as far as I know is not the kind of mod who'd do that kind of role overlap with a 1-shot vig and a 2-shot slightly-different vig. he might design a setup around having a bunch of equivalent 1-shot vigs, but the kind of random role overlap that is supposedly going on here is just not something I know him to do.

[pieguyn]

the thing with the extra kill is, there exist roles such as scum PGOs (or even an outright scum vig as ceph pointed out) that under the right circumstances allow scum extra kills. so no, I don't really care about an extra kill "townfirm'ing" math, since it wouldn't, especially when they can just claim they shot someone else and were redirected again.

[pieguyn]

Ima go look at what TNE's reads were. sec

[pieguyn]

well that didn't take long, she was actively scum reading math.

and tbh, "with a scum read in the active players I am actioning" sounds like something you'd soft as a PGO-esque role, not a vig role

p-edit, yeah overuse and overfilling the gauge are entirely separate mechanics from one another.

[pieguyn]

this obviously isn't a mod provided fake claim. if they're scum they probably thought it'd be better to stray from the script and fake this vig claim for whatever reason.

re the second point, there is literally no reason to put the hated modifier in there if math would be dead anyway. it's entirely redundant

[pieguyn]

That isn't what I am claiming at all.

2nd time I am hated
Third time I die.

Both are in the Overusage section.

Car issues haven't read much yet will be home late tonight but may not be able to look til tomorrow.

math's claim is very likely scum.

the reason is simple, GIF wouldn't design this setup where one random person has a different format for their overuse than everyone else in the game. as far as I'm aware, everyone has an ability where it's like "X shots /// if you overuse you get this penalty", which is completely different from "this ability /// using X shots -> this penalty, using Y shots -> another penalty". it isn't just an unusual claim, it's a claim that has a completely different format/design than everything else we've seen so far if math is town.

GIF doesn't do this sort of setup design where one role is conveniently different from all the other roles. he just doesn't. he favors elegance as a mod, not designing setups to deliberately mislead people. for this reason, I feel really confident that math's claim is fake and they just didn't check their facts all the way before making it.

I'm not actioning tonight.

[pieguyn]

though, if anyone else wants to claim they have an ability which is structured in the same way, they should do so now.

[pieguyn]

"X shots /// if you overuse you get this penalty"

you're saying that it doesn't fit into this format?

[pieguyn]

do you have multiple things under the "overuse" section?

p-edit: ya that's what I'm after. math is claiming something that doesn't even work that way.

[pieguyn]

rather, I'm after whether it's formatted that way or not since math's claim falls completely outside of that.

[pieguyn]

pretty sure this is game.

vote: math

[pieguyn]

Is there something that really incriminates math ? (Hasn't really read the game hehe ^_^;)

literally everything.

[pieguyn]

unvote:

no one lynch until I think about a few things

[pieguyn]

if math is town, they deliberately tried to target someone who had outright claimed immune-to-kills in the game thread.

[pieguyn]

Genji, I need you to confirm that you did, indeed, take an action tonight.

[pieguyn]

*last night

[pieguyn]

_WHY_ DIDN'T AK PROTECT NENE N2???

GOD FUCKING DAMN IT AND FUCK THE KUROME HEAD FOR THINKING SHE HAD THE RIGHT TO SAY OTHER PEOPLE WERE SHIT AT THE GAME AND THE NGOING AND DOING THIS.

[pieguyn]

;SLKDJF;ALKDSJF;ALKSDFJ;LAKGJFD;KJG I am so sick of mafia.

I'm not sure if I agree on it being too much, scum had basically an unlimited strongman at their disposal (losing daychat is like nothing as a penalty), but let me think about it.

[pieguyn]

I would not have expected protect to be 1-shot. if there's someone else who has a useful ability but doesn't want to suffer the overuse penalty, they should poke me.

[pieguyn]

I mean I still feel mostly sure that math is flipping scum, because I don't buy a 1-shot vig and then a 2-shot vig both being in this setup and it's highly likely math made up the format of their role. I mostly just want to sort out how last night went first on the off chance that they flip town.

p-edit: yeeeaaahhh, that's the fucking problem.

[pieguyn]

oh the strongman is dead

but isnt that only a 1-shot strongman

also it wasn't akame, shiro was already in the game -- right?

;SLKDJF;ALKDSJF;ALKSDFJ;LAKGJFD;KJG I am so sick of mafia.

I'm not sure if I agree on it being too much, scum had basically an unlimited strongman at their disposal (losing daychat is like nothing as a penalty), but let me think about it.

[pieguyn]

P-EDIT:

Wait, wait, now it makes sense to me.
'Usage' does equal total number of shots of an ability.
'Overusage' does mean using an ability after you are out of 'Usage' shots.
Everyone who uses an ability (if town) just ups the magical gauge by 1--scum up it by 0.5.
If too many people use their powers (Remaining players+1), then no player actions can be taken the following night.

Okay. Hm.

well that didn't take long, she was actively scum reading math.

and tbh, "with a scum read in the active players I am actioning" sounds like something you'd soft as a PGO-esque role, not a vig role

p-edit, yeah overuse and overfilling the gauge are entirely separate mechanics from one another.

[pieguyn]

I did action last night, and I plan to do so again if this game continues after today.

in this case, math acted last night, Varsoon acted last night, Genji acted last night, and Nene obviously acted last night because duh.

don't we just win? the only way I see where this isn't the case is if scum somehow have some way of altering the # transformed count.

[pieguyn]

that's what I wanted to clear up so I'm k with day ending now. I wouldn't recommend sticking to that 100%, though.

if math flips town, I'd go for Varsoon tomorrow based on reads, probably.

[pieguyn]

also ftr math was technically lynched like 2 or 3 pages ago if they're town.

[pieguyn]

I'm somewhat surprised you forgot about your fake claim that easily.

[pieguyn]

ya you're not town.

[pieguyn]

That isn't what I am claiming at all.

2nd time I am hated
Third time I die.

Both are in the Overusage section.

Car issues haven't read much yet will be home late tonight but may not be able to look til tomorrow.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ you should probably just claim scum if you're scum here, that way we can all just troll until GIF gets back.

[pieguyn]

you shot Varsoon N1 and N2.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[pieguyn]

if you're town, no offense but this was the biggest comedy of errors I think I have ever seen in any claim anyone has made ever, to the point where it's actually pretty hilarious.

[pieguyn]

. . . can't tell if scum trolling or if legit.

[pieguyn]

/townsweep

this was a fun game. thanks for modding~

[pieguyn]

I would not have expected protect to be 1-shot. if there's someone else who has a useful ability but doesn't want to suffer the overuse penalty, they should poke me.

did the reviver not see this? <_>

[pieguyn]

my role was a 2-shot role where I could transfer an overuse penalty to myself and recover from it (if I used it more than twice I wouldn't recover from the penalty). it's too bad I couldn't have used it on the reviver. that would have been fucking hilarious if we would have been able to go around just reviving everyone and not giving a shit about the death penalty :<

[pieguyn]

this was actually not traumatic at all as far as games I've had recently. there was a bunch of drama and shit, but at the end of the day this was a very rare sort of game where I was able to relax and not put an absurd amount of effort into the game, and win comfortably anyway.