Mini 1851 : Order of the Stick Mafia - Epilogue

[Kagami]

And I don't think you believe the sum of my reads on you are "I want to hear from nacho."

[Kagami]

I don't think cakes is likely to be scum anymore.

[Kagami]

This is probably a good time to go over those wisdom and farside-slot reads, Nacho. We can skip the infinity read.

[Kagami]

aa, didn't notice those with the page flip.

[Kagami]

VOTE: nacho

p-edit: I was entertaining farside-scum mostly from PoE, and I suspect I'm not the only one.

[Kagami]

This is probably a good time to go over those wisdom and farside-slot reads, Nacho. We can skip the infinity read.

I will go over those reads when I had the chance, but I would also very deeply appreciate it if you engaged what I put forth.

As I'm sure you're aware, I don't care much for engaging unless I expect useful responses.

I generally disagree with the validity of the reasons for your reads, even with those where we agree with the conclusion. Your versions seem hand-waved and shallow, despite being expressed with an air of confidence.

I find your 1381 to present a completely silly interpretation of wisdom's actions where better ones exist. I find your explanation for your reversal of that read extremely weak, together with your other townreads, and I don't see how you can legitimately claim a PoE strategy when there's no reason you can justify any confidence in your reasoning for them.

You exist in a very suspicious place in 600, where shadow had no reason to place you as town. There was very little suspicion on you, and he had every reason to place you in a more appeasing "townlean" zone given you seemed to be paying some attention to him without presenting a scumread.

While in vanilla nightless, you were very keen to analyze my readslist upon your being quickhammered, here you don't care about shaddow's, despite him appearing a much less comfortable scum player. His 600 is very likely to be an off-the-cuff scum-readlist which he felt needed to be corrected, hence the quick revision.

You don't seem especially interested in analyzing any shadow interaction whatsoever, despite apparently only believing in SvS interactions.

Your tammy interactions almost entirely belie "I don't want you to vote me" rather than "I want to work together since you're pretty much 100% town."

I also can't imagine that you actually believe that my choosing not to present rationale for my nacho read and trying to think through the wisdom/leon thing is somehow indicative of my scum-self.

[Kagami]

MoI put the same text in Dr who, which didn't have anything crazy. So I'm not sure it means much.

If it weren't for the hated thing, I would just assume wis is a modified sk.

[Kagami]

Checked the princess bride thing, MoI's complaint there is of a very different nature than a hypothetical "I am going to tell players that something happened that didn't happen so they think the fake claim is real." In princess bride, the game was breakable by flavor because the claims themselves were badly chosen.

[Kagami]

recruits are bastard, tammy

I was explicitly told that any alignment was considered bastard, even if one was explicitly informed of the possibility in their role pm. I had asked MoI on day 1, though I forget why I did.

[Kagami]

Alignment change

[Kagami]

Because it's a dreadful post.

[Kagami]

571, that is. He followed through with it appropriately, though.

[Kagami]

Depression is irrelevant, the sentiment is equally dreadful if you replace "depression" with "excessive banana consumption" and I'd respond the same in those circumstances.

[Kagami]

2058 would be sufficient for a nacho vote if I weren't already doing so.

[Kagami]

That was the very least of what I expected, and my experience with GI is not such that I believe I was wrong to. I continue not to feel bad about that lynch even though I somewhat like GI.

[Kagami]

That was the very least of what I expected, and my experience with GI is not such that I believe I was wrong to. I continue not to feel bad about that lynch even though I somewhat like GI.

You never responded with why you were unnecessarily cold.

There's no kind way to respond to Tammy. If she cares, I can pm with her post-game.

[Kagami]

I flavorcopped PantherPunt. He's not Xykon.

Who is he?

[Kagami]

And did you get a story n1?

[Kagami]

O.o

[Kagami]

VOTE: panther

[Kagami]

UNVOTE:

That doesn't make sense

[Kagami]

linear guild member, bad guy.

[Kagami]

Nightless?

[Kagami]

Rule E3 is in doctor who too.

How is your BP worded, leon?

[Kagami]

Rule E3 is in doctor who too.

How is your BP worded, leon?

Passive 1-shot, immune to the first normal NK on me.

Then prob not nightless, would only protect against tammy. Did you get any messages N1?

[Kagami]

kagami and leon...u too
if u were to guess our characters, what 2 characters make most sense given what you know about our claims so far

I know the flavor well and have no confidence I could guess it. If thog is indeed town, maybe nale-sabine? elan-durkan?

[Kagami]

No, it wouldn't be a story vendor if you didn't get a message. They prob jailkept shadow to protect him.

Nacho must be ascetic.

p-edit: o.O

[Kagami]

kills could have been tammy->nacho

[Kagami]

We should chat post-game, nacho.

[Kagami]

kraska was the obvious kill choice, imo. It's incredible to me that anyone else would be targeted.

[Kagami]

Mr scruffy, VT.

[Kagami]

Four scum?

[Kagami]

I can't imagine any scum would think it's a good idea to kill nacho over kraska, me, kagami, or anyone else tbh

Why on earth would scum consider killing me? or you?

[Kagami]

I don't understand the lynch, by flavor thog is substantially less scummy than monster-in-the-darkness.

[Kagami]

And this only makes sense if we assume 4 scum, and presumably nightless-ish, or leon is some sort of scum and made up the xykon thing.

[Kagami]

I wouldn't say thog is especially evil either.

[Kagami]

Extremely weird role-wise that O-Chul is the conditional BP-vig while Monster is an enabler. It would make infinitely more sense for the monster to be unhurtable and to go crazy if O-Chul gets hurt or some such.

[Kagami]

I agree that scum-flavor is not clear-cut. Design choice to foil Leon's flavor cop?

[Kagami]

Yes, now I remember the acid stuff.

[Kagami]

You guys are fully flavor confirmed to each other, Tammy?

[Kagami]

Let's assume 1 scum is left, and that leon is being truthful:

It's pretty well confirmed that Peregrin rolestopped nacho twice, and that infinity targeted nacho with something twice.
Xykon exists and is likely the final scum.
Unless leon is scum, I would be shocked if cakez hadn't jailkept shaddow, which means that the third scumplayer attempted to kill if an attempt was made.
Due to rule E3, neither infinity nor peregrin are scum unless no kill attempt was made, which seems unlikely to me.
Tammy is flavor confirmed, and a highly probably N1 kill target.
Panther is confirmed thog and thus town.
Kraska would not have attempted to kill tammy N1, though maaaaaaybe nacho if nacho is town.

Only possible scummos are myself, nacho, wisdom, and maybe kraska.

[Kagami]

i agree, cakez and nacho did look like buddies, but what about the nokill then?

peregrine, are you sure you're not actually a roleblocker and you misread your role?

Yes, confirm this.

[Kagami]

Tammy was known to be BP N2, kraska

[Kagami]

Nacho kill N2 is the only thing that vaguely makes sense.

[Kagami]

I see no reason not to unless we plan to lynch leon for verification.

[Kagami]

or cakez didn't JK shadow, but it would be pretty stupid not to.

[Kagami]

I buy the panther argument, but that makes leon scum of some sort.

[Kagami]

Seems like lynching leon is strictly better than lynching panther.

[Kagami]

Would be kinda funny is Roy was told xykon was definitely somewhere and he goes there searching when he's not in the game at all though.

Or xykon is in the game and is a lyncher on Roy while Roy is a lyncher on xykon?

Lyncher on non-existent flavor, while hilarious, would be extremely bastardly.

[Kagami]

panther is an obviously solid flavorcop for a lyncher-on-town, so I don't see the argument there.

What is peregrine? If leon is lyncher-on-town, I don't think there's a reasonable flavor match anywhere. Miko-Belkar would be good, but he'd have just killed you N1.

[Kagami]

VOTE: Wisdom

[Kagami]

^ that's fine too.

[Kagami]

VOTE: Leon

I keep forgetting about the xykon thing.

[Kagami]

kagami if you disagree with my logic, can you point me to where I am not thinking right instead of throwing votes at me?

There was no justification for lynching panther before leon.

[Kagami]

Other than to enable a route to a scum win that otherwise was non existent

[Kagami]

-________-

[Kagami]

I was stupid to have voted

[Kagami]

What's the good word, Tammy?

[Kagami]

And just to assuage my paranoia, could you go ahead and give nacho another stabbing, wisdom?

[Kagami]

I took no action last night.

why not? You had one job...

[Kagami]

I guess it doesn't really change much.

[Kagami]

No, because the game hasn't ended.

[Kagami]

You're hated.

[Kagami]

I guess it would be funny if we lose unless we lynch nacho before you're quickhammered.

[Kagami]

That's dumb.

Scum-peregrin had no reason to out that he was a rolestopper.
Scum-peregrin implies that scum did not protect shadow on N1.
Scum-peregrin had no reason not to shoot tammy last night.

[Kagami]

Why does scum-peregrin block a kill on nacho anyway?

[Kagami]

And scum no killed?

[Kagami]

Why does scum-peregrin block a kill on nacho anyway?

Seems more likely that nacho thought he'd likely flake or would protect Tammy. He had no choice but to shoot infinity anyway, so I'm not sure why this seems so odd to you.

[Kagami]

And scum no killed?

no, scum shot tammy

Then why did infinity get no result on nacho?

[Kagami]

strongman makes that unclear, but MoI called it a Story Vendor for a reason.

[Kagami]

2-shot Jailkeep

ING

story vendor, so no.

[Kagami]

Guess we'll have to beat him to the hammer Tomorrow.

VOTE: Nacho

[Kagami]

yes, jailkeeping story vendor. Jailkeeping modifies story vendor like Foo Enabling modifies Neighbor.

[Kagami]

There's no way he was a 2-shot jail keeper and the rest of the time story vendor or some goofy permutation of that.

[Kagami]

We don't know that anyone else got a story, either; there are a number of players who could have gotten one but they had no reason or no chance to claim it.

What on earth would they do other than JK either Shadow or Leon. No other move makes any sense.

[Kagami]

We know peregrin rolestopped nacho because Infinity got no result N1, so if shadow was JKed by cakez, then scum could not have attempted a kill N1.

[Kagami]

No, you guys missed the point.

[Kagami]

We know peregrin rolestopped nacho because Infinity got no result N1, so if shadow was JKed by cakez, then scum could not have attempted a kill N1.

Assuming peregrin scum.

Ergo: Nacho is scum, or they opted to rolestop nacho instead of attempting a kill, or they didn't attempt to save shadow. Former seems way way way more likely.

[Kagami]

Or Cakez blocked Leon and Shadow made the kill.

In which case Leon receives a story because MoI didn't create a bizarre, poorly named role.

[Kagami]

Kraska role name is formatted as I'd expect. The use of -ing is also as I'd expect, and is used for conjunction, not disjunction as you're claiming.

[Kagami]

Whatever, the role nacho described is ridiculous.

Shadow almost certainly had an Elan fakeclaim and was a JK who gave his target a story.

[Kagami]

Or he can "flavor-confirm" himself by JKing a plausible kill victim and ride it to victory.

[Kagami]

Don't care, this is a silly rabbit hole at this point, though I'm pretty sure I'm correct.

[Kagami]

more importantly, Peregrin didn't just hammer nacho.

[Kagami]

Tammy's shot is gone, peregrin would have won.

[Kagami]

He was already here, nacho.

[Kagami]

Or do you mean Tomorrow? He has that problem regardless.

[Kagami]

Kraska's role, wisdom.

[Kagami]

He's up against two conf-town regardless. You're toast.

[Kagami]

As soon as you didn't die, the only possibilities were you and peregrin, nacho.

[Kagami]

Wis, he already passed it up.

[Kagami]

waffles on what? She knows she shot you, who you claim will flip VT. Peregrin is a rolestopper. There's no waffling, she's not a fool.

[Kagami]

I've been thinking about it, but nothing wisdom could be makes lynching nacho bad.

[Kagami]

I definitely don't disagree that peregrine has played exceptionally poorly as town, but his not being town requires a stupid role to exist.

[Kagami]

Don't worry nacho, no one is lynching wisdom.

[Kagami]

would you believe Cakez if he claimed, "I am Elan, Jailkeeper and Story Vendor together"?

If I was a likely kill target and I received a story, yes.

[Kagami]

What? Why not?

[Kagami]

Don't worry nacho, no one is lynching wisdom.

Does your schedule allow you to be around at this time on Wednesday?

No, no chance at all.

[Kagami]

If 4 scum, lynching nacho is still correct. He's either BP and is lying about role, or was protected, which scum wouldn't do if he weren't one of them.

[Kagami]

You're paranoid. If nacho+peregrine, they'd have lynched you.

[Kagami]

On, misread

[Kagami]

Yes, I was thinking in the back of my mind that he was right and knew what had gone down. He was playing a scum game in any case.

You're certainly correct that peregrine played an extremely pro-scum game.

Thanks for modding, moi.

[Kagami]

Game would have been very different if leon had just claimed town.

[Kagami]

Yeah, I still don't really understand that or the panther lynch.

[Kagami]

Dead thread is interesting. Everyone was surprised it was nacho?

[Kagami]

My issue with panther lynch was that it doesn't really make sense not to just lynch leon first.

[Kagami]

That's not how it was, panther being scum was entirely conditional on a specific leon flip, and confirmed town otherwise.

[Kagami]

Town generally played a decent game, but Tammy being bp-ic was pretty game-breaking.

[Kagami]

Interestingly, game could have ended night 1 no less easily than katsuki's did

[Kagami]

Leon should claim Town with that role regardless of his having received an official fakeclaim.

If he had no mod-provided fakeclaim, he might have been screwed if it somehow became evident that he didn't know the town win condition. The need for an official fakeclaim arises from the policy that only scum get to know what's going on with certainty, which MoI properly executed.

[Kagami]

I think it would be somewhat more elegant to just make the Town Win Condition public knowledge, though.

[Kagami]

As a minor criticism, I'm not crazy about the almost-but-not-quite flavor confirmations.

Iterations of this setup could easily be decided by whether or not people are inclined to treat the flavor surrounding things such as the various death scenes or the "Go Board" hood as meaningful or not.

While it's fine to have ambiguity in what flavor might have been involved in some scene, I don't think it's a good idea to let it be unclear whether or not these things should be read into.

A good way to resolve that would just to be explicit with what flavor indicates in non-flavor text. e.g. Shadowwez could appear as "shaddowez - Tsukiko, Mafia Goon, was

cut in half

Night 1" in the OP and at the flip.