Mini 1918: Paint Mafia Threequel! Game Over!

[Havo]

What's up peoples?

vote: Varsoon

Because he's not Varlater.

[Havo]

Uh.........

What fresh hell is this?

[Havo]

OKay at first I was like, this sounds crazy with the paint stuff and I have no idea if I'm gonna be able to navigate this, I sure hope someone explains the game mechanics without me having to look pretty damn stupid and begging for help.

Then 6 pages later I feel like, OMG just stop with the game mechanics already. Damn.

[Havo]

If this sounds like what someone else has or hasn't already said, I don't care tbh.

Day 1 is obviously the only reliable color flip.

Flipping blue and Town confirming someone only sets them up for a N1 kill. So I don't think it's a great idea to flip someone who we think will be really helpful for town. i.e., a decent town read.

I think it definitely behooves us to flip someone we think could be scum or at the least not very helpful.

so with that,

unvote: Varsoon

[Havo]

So if my math is right, we have like 14 hours to flip someone's color?

[Havo]

There's a little voice in my head telling me to

vote : Bomberman

[Havo]

I wanna be clear more votes plz

Oh yeah, peeps, my super power is the ability to vote someone, and make them magically appear.

[Havo]

I wanna be clear more votes plz

Care to elaborate on this?

[Havo]

I have an undesirable need to be relevant at every facet of the game therefore I make boisterous statements that get me noticed

As glorious as this sounds, and it does sound glorious btw.

I find this somewhat not so believable when coupled with a post count of 12.

[Havo]

I have an undesirable need to be relevant at every facet of the game therefore I make boisterous statements that get me noticed

As glorious as this sounds, and it does sound glorious btw.

I find this somewhat not so believable when coupled with a post count of 12.

But since you have 13 Posts, well now............

nope, still not buying it.

[Havo]

Bomberman wtf! Why are you not voting yourself!?

I almost played this card. lol.

[Havo]

So at this point we're waiting for Twoface to show up right?

Also I need to read that again. Lots to digest.

This.

My first skim thru made my head hurt a bit and I got mostly TvT out of it.
But my skim skills aren't the best. So I probably need to read it thru slowly twice.

[Havo]

Phew.

VOTE: Twoface

There were a few minutes there where I thought I might want to vote you, Frog.

Maybe it's really bomberman and jjh

This looks like too easy of a switch

Hmm....

What do you mean by "and"?

[Havo]

Hmm....

What do you mean by "and"?

Exactly what he meant. He thought both could be scum.

Read on. He changes his mind after that.

Thanks for the answer green guy but I was focusing on a different angle than the obvious one.

Would rather here his reply.

[Havo]

Hear*

Or read I guess I should say.

[Havo]

TwoFace is currently coloured..

Spoiler:

Red!

VoteCount 1.07

Not Voting [13]:

Apricity, aptil, Aristophanes, Bomberman, Fro99er, Gamma Emerald, Havo, Infinity324, jjh927, MaxwellPuckett, Raya36, TwoFace, Varsoon

Day one resumes! With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch. You have (expired on 2017-06-17 09:00:00) to do so.

vote : twoface

[Havo]

So how does this work exactly? Is there down time after a color flip or does it just keep going. I've got no issues hammering myself but if the thread is going to be locked I'd rather wait and see what others have to say.

I am having surgery tomorrow so I'll be inactive for a day or so. I will be on in the morning and for the next hour or two.

Hope all goes well dude.

[Havo]

Either Max or Raya is scum based off TwoFace's flip

I will have to go back and read when I get off work.

But my knee jerk reaction likes where your vote is.

[Havo]

No we're not

WHO, is this?

[Havo]

Vote : Gamma

[Havo]

I think Gamma is the best to color flip at this point, based mainly off a process of elimination. And a couple of his posts I didn't feel good about.

[Havo]

With 13 players, what's a reasonable assumption as to how many mafia there is?

3?

[Havo]

I think Gamma is the best to color flip at this point, based mainly off a process of elimination. And a couple of his posts I didn't feel good about.

My current town leans are:

Bomberman
Varsoon
Frogger
JJ
Aristo
Apricity

That leaves :
Gamma
Max
Raya
Aptil

Raya and Max are not very active, that doesn't give them a pass of course but it does give them an excuse IMO more so than Gamma or Aptil. Looking at the color flip vote, Gamma and Aptil both were not own it.

Looking at the lynch vote, again, neither were on it. And both are active enough to be IMO.

NOw I know several have said they believe scum would have been on the vote and I don't deny it's a realistic probability, but given a few of Gamma's posts, which I'll quote here in a minute, I just feel like flipping Gamma would be the best choice right now.

[Havo]

lol k
I mean I'll just be conftown if you colorflip me so go ahead and make me impossible to push

Fro99er, can I request a soft restart on your thoughts on me? Just back to the beginning of d2. I got confused about which wagon was posted.

I think mafia would hop on late when it was a lost cause

None of these set well with me.

Also, looking through Gamma's ISO, there is NO scum hunting at all. There is no game solving going on.

[Havo]

Havo talk to me about apricity

I have him as a slight town lean, but it's mainly for his early tone in the game. He has a very non-combative, passive posting style and comes across as maybe the nicest guy I ever played mafia with, but I haven't seen much game solving from him. A lot of going with the flow so to speak. He was not on the Color flip vote, but was quickly on the lynch vote.

I would put him at the bottom of that list of my town leans as of right now, but he hasn't posted anything that's pinged my scumdar as of yet. So.........

[Havo]

Havo talk to me about apricity

Talk to me about Aptil

[Havo]

I go back and forth on Aptil, but if gamma is scum aptil is town

So a color flip on either would make you feel good about the other?

Win-Win?

[Havo]

Havo why is Ari town?
Also why exactly are you townleaning Apricity there, I see no reason for it w what youve said. If its the lack of scumminess, that should be null.
Raya and i are in your scumlist but do you have anything on either of us? Sounds like we're also null

Ari was 5th on the Color flip vote of TwoFace, I don't see scum doing that. Plus he hasn't pinged me.

the Townlean to Apricity is mainly for his early tone. And again, he hasn't pinged me.

The bottome wasn't a scum list per say, it was a left over list. You and Raya haven't been active enought for me to get a read at this point.

[Havo]

5 is the tail end of the wagon, why wouldnt scum do that?

Pedit ok frogger but ill still be digging there
Im not reading in terms of teams yet, but im looking at Gamma, Raya, and Havo rn. jjh and Ari idk about but im just not confident they're town. Ari is kinda odd in general tho so Im less sure.
Now that im here I can actually sort through these reads.

Because it was 7 to flip, he was 5th, so there's 4 votes on twoface and still time to turn the wagon, but piling on at 5th pretty much seals it IMO. If he was the 7th or even 6th I would give it less cred.

[Havo]

Also PSA, I'm a girl.

My apologies.

[Havo]

Oh, gotcha.
That'd be Gamma with Havo as a close second. They might swap places Im not sure. What I don't like with havo is the way his reads are forming, it doesnt feel right to me. The reasoning (and explanation) with the Ari feels so specific. Why is 5 a towny place but 6 isn't? I'd even be doubting at 4. Also the discussion about the "win-win" with aptil and Gamma feels false.
Re: Gamma I think apricity is right about him not doing a lot, which I dont usually associate with Gamma.

Because it's a "Tipping" point issue. Think about it, if you were scum would you put the 5th vote on your scum partner when 7 is needed?

And if you think Apricity is right about Gamma, then you think I'm right as well as I pointed it out already.

[Havo]

And if you think Apricity is right about Gamma, then you think I'm right as well as I pointed it out already.

do you want a fucking cookie or something?

Peanut Butter preferably.

[Havo]

@ Frogger and Max,

Why do you have a problem flipping Gamma?

[Havo]

I'm also not going to vote JJ until I get a read on him. That's going to be an evolving read for a bit. He would know why.

pedit: hi

VOTE: JJ

Have you played with JJ before?

[Havo]

If like in game 2, scum can paint Red but not blue, then that would mean JJ was Blue and was painted Red by scum, thus making him purple. No?

[Havo]

If like in game 2, scum can paint Red but not blue, then that would mean JJ was Blue and was painted Red by scum, thus making him purple. No?

If they can't paint Blue, then there would be no way to make Purple, unless he started out as Blue.

[Havo]

Questions is, how often and When can scum use their painting abilities?

[Havo]

So we're to believe JJ was the one scum chose to use their paint ability on last night?

[Havo]

The colour of the flip is not that trustworthy as the colour was definitely changed here because scum is red and town is blue (anything other than that should be a mechanism of colour change).
So we have two things here to analyse:

1) If you believe jj was town (blue) colour changed to purple by scum last night they would need to push for his reveal . So we look for who pushed where and how .Also another possibility of town changing the colour not so sure about that role but that would be weird.

2)If you believe jj was scum(red) ) colour changed to purple by himself , he would have to somehow be eager to reveal himself and clear him by that standard . In this case he would have to act pretty damn scummy to get that flip .

This makes so much sense it worries me how you came up with it tbh.

[Havo]

The colour of the flip is not that trustworthy as the colour was definitely changed here because scum is red and town is blue (anything other than that should be a mechanism of colour change).
So we have two things here to analyse:

1) If you believe jj was town (blue) colour changed to purple by scum last night they would need to push for his reveal . So we look for who pushed where and how .Also another possibility of town changing the colour not so sure about that role but that would be weird.

2)If you believe jj was scum(red) ) colour changed to purple by himself , he would have to somehow be eager to reveal himself and clear him by that standard . In this case he would have to act pretty damn scummy to get that flip .

2 would be a hell of a gambit, no?

[Havo]

Havo whats your read on Jjh and what do you think happened here

JJ comes across as very flighty to me, but he hasn't pinged me any. He's kind of all over the place.

I don't know what happened here, but Aptil's explanation sounds legit to me and Especialy option 1.

But I probably need to let it sink in more but those are my kneejerk reactions and they're usually good for me.

[Havo]

I do find it odd, how Frogger pushed for JJ.

Just saying....

[Havo]

Okay, on a side bar,

2 questions,

1) Who is Pet Siblings Doggo? He's got 2 posts yet he's not listed as in the game.

2) What is the Pedit everyone keeps posting?

[Havo]

Oh damn I entirely missed Havo's joindate, time to reread the slot oops
Pedit is preview-edit its what u type when someone posted something while you were writing your post

Siblings Pet Doggo is Frogger's hydra, he's just slipped twice and posted as it

OK, thank you sir.

[Havo]

So if scum gets to paint 1 person at night and only 1, then it just happens that JJ was the one they painted and he was the one we flipped.

So if we had flipped anyone else, they would be their original color? And we wouldn't be debating what the hell purple means.

Yeah, if that's the case, then I'm not believing that JJ's flip was just a happenstance.

[Havo]

VOTE: Aristophanes
Night losers

Yeah, me too, I'll be back on in about 10 hours or so, I'm sleeping in tomorrow damn it.

[Havo]

@Havo: Why are you assuming that colors 'mix' like that? I don't think colors 'mixed' like that in ANY of the previous games, iirc.

It's because Red and Blue would make Purple. If he had flipped just about any other color I wouldn't have thought that. LIke white or black. Just made sense to me that if he HAD been blue, that being painted with red would have made him Purple. Someone said scum couldn't paint Blue in the last game.

[Havo]

I didn't post for ages just so you could have that pagetop and also because me saying anything else would serve no purpose.

smh. Why would you even post this?

[Havo]

Okay. First,

He was painted and ipped. I say we lynch him and assume the paint ability is one shot per night. This means thay we can truse the results more as we go and dont have to worry about the wine of his flip later.

It's sound theory

This post here bothers me to no end and feels like he's trying to rush the game before we talk things out

I think this is a classic test balloon. The little smiley face on the end says, "I was joking" when actually he wasn't. Just seeing if anyone will go along with it.

But I actually don't think it's a bad idea tbh.

[Havo]

What if mafia had to paint someone twice to turn them red? The first attempt with the red paint would paint them purple since that's a mix of the two colours and the second time would paint them completely red?

I think it's plausible, but that means it takes 2 nights to paint someone and that seems a little too weak of a mafia ability to me. Unless they could paint multiple targets at night, then I think it would be much more realistic.

[Havo]

So you're just assuming that the mechanic works that way despite having no evidence besides basing your expectation off of real life colors?

Yes, but I'm just throwing it out as a possibility for discussion. I'm not saying that's the way it is.

Just spit balling.

[Havo]

This is precisely why I think discussing mechanics that we don't fully understand is a distraction.
We need to focus in on scumhunting and working towards a lynch.

I'm glad that you're posting more than just answering about color, Havo.

I agree, we don't need to get lost in game theory and mechanics. Purple is just a distraction at this point.

So sticking to scum hunting and calling out scummy posts is the way to go IMO at this point.

[Havo]

I still think we shold've flipped Gamma.

[Havo]

Hope all goes well dude.

Thanks. One of these days we can actually play a game of normal mafia. I really need to read these setups before I join.

Goodnight

Aww poor TwoFace!

Well play again some time! Sorry you got the shit end of this stick <3

VOTE: TwoFace

We're flipping Bomber or jjjh I think.

VOTE: jjjh

I'm so far behind. Did we flip anyone yet?

We flipped me and I'm purple, Ari.

Awesome!

Why would scum paint you first?

He was painted and ipped. I say we lynch him and assume the paint ability is one shot per night. This means thay we can truse the results more as we go and dont have to worry about the wine of his flip later.

It's sound theory

I'm just gonna put this here for now, so I can refer to it later if I need too.

[Havo]

Havo, what do you think of the JJH color flip?
Specifically, what do you think of the color wagon on JJH and player's positioning after that?
If not JJH, then who do you believe is scum and what are you doing to push there?

P-EDIT: Glad we can be on the same page, Havo. Hope that these questions get us there moreso.

I don't know what to make of the color flip to Purple. I see it as a distraction tbh. It doesn't tell us anything at this point.

I think the first vote should be looked at by Aristo, and I posted that quote with a few other things Aristo said that stands out to me.

I think your vote was legit and you gave a good reason. I think Frogger's vote and Max's vote need to be looked at. Frogger didn't give a reason for voting JJ that was credible to me, he didn't give one at all. Max sheeped him basically and has been since Day 2 started. I'm a bit suspicious of there buddying. Plus at the time Frogger voted, Gamma was in the vote lead and there was momentum on his wagon, Frogger and Max effectively killed that momentum.

Then bomberman jumps on stating it's an opurtunistic flip and JJ then self hammers.

My top scum read has been Gamma and I pushed for his color flip, got it to 4 before it was derailed. Since then Gamma has hardly posted and now states he only gets 3 hours per day to post.

[Havo]

Could the JJ wagon be just coincidence? I have a hard time believing it. With him being painted.

Raya's vote on Gamma Put him a L-2, then the JJ wagon took off. I don't think it looks good at all.

[Havo]

The problem is Frogger has been a Heavy town read for almost everyone.

[Havo]

zzz
Havo you read really fucking opportunistiic rn
I'm checking yuor color flip votes

I'm spitting facts and truths. It's all there, just read it.

[Havo]

i) Gamma Emerald - town b*tches
ii) Aristophanes - likely town
iii) Fro99er - likely town
iv) Raya36 - iirc TwoFace was shady with this guy
v) TwoFace - dead mafia
vi) Varsoon - likely town
vii) Apricity - ?
viii) Havo - opportinistic, p scummy
ix) Bomberman - ?
x) Infinity 324 - dead town
xi) aptil - scummy
xii) jjh927 - probtown
xiii) MaxwellPuckett - iirc TwoFace was weird with this guy

My thoughts rn

My number 1 scum read reading me as scummy, no surprise there.
And you still have yet to do ANY game solving.

Why do you thing Aristo is likely town?

What do you make of Max and Raya's interactions with Twoface?
Can you elabortate more than Weird and Shady?

[Havo]

Hey im prodded, also forgot to mention i wouldnt be available saturday whoops.
Hey tho whats happening

Not much of anything. I think the weekend has taken its toll on this game. Lol.

vote: Gamma

Voting my top scum read.

[Havo]

It makes Zero sense for their to be a Pro Town Painter. Zero.

A townie going around painting people would only create confusion and chaos, thus aiding scum.

And what would be the point anyway?

[Havo]

I've been internally waffling on the slot since the colorflip. Was pretty sure they were scum before it, and their posturing after it has me between deluded town or reaching scum.
That said, as far as information is concerned, JJH's flip gives us the most.

I agree, at this point lynching JJ gives us the most info.

I would rather have flipped Gamma, but as far as lynching today, I think JJ is more the way to go.

Especially with him being all over the place.

[Havo]

But if that painter was loyal it would be VERY pro town. They could paint people blue in order to counteract scum repainting people. They could paint people weird colours and confrim that they visited the target.

I forget you're only slightly less new than me though, Havo. "Loyal" is a role modifier that means the role can only successfully visit people of the same alignment as them.

Yes, but how would a Loyal painter know who to paint?

Why wouldn't they just claim and say I know X player is town because I'm allowed to visit them and my role only allows me to visit town players?

[Havo]

That role would only create Chaos for town.

[Havo]

And there's No Way in frozen Hades, that you were painted by a Loyal Painter and a Scum Painter and just happened to have your color flipped. All in the same night/day phase.

[Havo]

No I think lynching you for the sake of the info is the way to go.

If you flip town, then we know the flip wagon on you has scum on it.

If you flip scum, then we learn that scum can paint themselves.

[Havo]

Havo, you clearly don't understand the loyal modifier so I'd suggest you go look at the wiki.

And a loyal painter would specifically be trying to target people that they thought scum would repaint, so me being targeted by both is not a stretch. Scum will try to eventually flip whoever they paint and will pick a target who is likely to be flipped. All of these events are not independent and are correlative so don't pretend it would have to be some crazy coincidence.

I do understand the Loyal Modifier.

I just don't believe it would be a role in this game. What's the point of a pro town player painting players? To try and keep them from looking Red? That role, if real, would only create confusion. It would make things a mess for town and I don't believe the Mod would put that in the game. It sounds like BS to me, pure BS. I'm new to this site, but I've played forum mafia for a few years with some outstanding BS'ers. And this my friend is pegging my BS meter.

[Havo]

Here's the problem JJH, even if I did believe there was a chance that role was in the game. Lynching you is still the best play.

Since there is not an obvious scum to lynch, you by way of giving the town info, are the best choice.

[Havo]

vote JJ

[Havo]

back from vla

gonna do some posting things tonight

unvote

Back to L-2

For now.

[Havo]

vote:Raya

[Havo]

Damn this exploded overnight. You guys are killing me. Lol

[Havo]

So the only night kill is JJ, which the supposed 1 shot big claims.

If there's a town roleblocker he needs to claim and reveal who he blocked.

Otherwise not looking good for Aptil in my opinion.

[Havo]

Frogger could you stop making me want to vote you lmao

Varsoon it seemed like the only option at that point after the refusal to lynch aptil, and I didn't want jjh

I explained why i think aptil is a bad colour flip, does anyone voting him have anything to say about that
Gamma or Frogger has my vote rn. Maybe Havo

pedit ok nvm frogger is playing again

I have no issue being flipped, I doubt scum would have painted me since there's been better targets, but of course I'd rather flip Gamma/Penguin or someone else who could be scum.

Ima get caught up and post a few things.

[Havo]

Im considering if scum would have NKed for that purpose, since this game doesnt really have a conftown theyd want to remove right away.
I know ari's v/la and Varsoon is having computer troubles, which makes this reveal phase less than awesome, but no one else seems to have brought that up yet
Like, if aptil is town he's a good target for scum to have painted so i dont think flipping him will give us a solid colour, just something like like purple again
VOTE: Penguin?

Since this is my third game here, I'm not familiar with the mechanics.

Is scum often allowed to not kill?

Or could scum have targeted JJ also, so it would look bad for Aptil.

Also, Aptil claimed he shot JJ. Would Aptil get confirmation from the Mod that his kill was successful?

[Havo]

I don't hate a gamma flip, but I know he's either flipping red or blue

I want to ask, but maybe I shouldn't?

[Havo]

What's going on?
Why was Raya the lynch??

Raya was a victim of circumstance.

[Havo]

I don't hate a gamma flip, but I know he's either flipping red or blue

I want to ask, but maybe I shouldn't?

he wasn't painted last night

yes, i'm some kind of paint detecting PR

Well u might as well spill it now. What info do you get?

[Havo]

Apricity: That's true. But what do u think about scum NKing last night?
I'm TRing Bomber but it's not a terrible flip, less likely to be messed with imo

Pedit: Eh, if thats true I'd rather flip Gamma/Penguin then. Unrelated but Id love to see Penguin check in before this phase is over too

Yeah, IMO Bomber or Gamma would be good, but with Frogger saying Gamma wasn't painted, of course this is where I want to go. Since I've been suspicious of Gamma from the start.

[Havo]

Well u might as well spill it now. What info do you get?

nah i'm not spilling everything yet

this is scummy

Maybe so, but completely trusting you has been an issue for me ever since you steered the flip wagon off of Gamma.

[Havo]

Maybe so, but completely trusting you has been an issue for me ever since you steered the flip wagon off of Gamma.

don't give a shit

you think I'm a scum paint detector or something?

I don't know what you are.

[Havo]

why if I was scum, and you think gamma is scum, would I paint detect gamma.


unless you think i'm gamma's scumbuddy which is lol

I have no idea what ability you have, but apparently it's directed at one person as to something like a Census taker.

I've played with a Census taker before, so I thought it might be something like that.

[Havo]

vote: Gamma/Penguin

I'm definitely down with this.

[Havo]

Yeah, but why fake it? If he claims that I wasn't painted, and I flip with any color other than my original, woudln't he just be lynched following?

I don't think a Blue player would make this statement.

All the more reason to flip him here.

[Havo]

Yeah, but why fake it? If he claims that I wasn't painted, and I flip with any color other than my original, woudln't he just be lynched following?

I don't think a Blue player would make this statement.

Explain

If he's Blue, why would he not bring up the fact that you could still be scum, with him flipping Blue?

He chose to say instead that if he flips anything other than his original color, then you get lynched.

[Havo]

If he's Blue, why would he not bring up the fact that you could still be scum, with him flipping Blue?

he never said I couldn't be scum with him flipping blue.

he said if he flips something other than blue then I'm scum, which is true from his POV.

Yeah, I guess. It just hit me funny because I wouldn't have said that.

[Havo]

If he's Blue, why would he not bring up the fact that you could still be scum, with him flipping Blue?

I just started participating in this game. I haven't fully caught up, and I don't know who could be what. I made a simple logical statement in response to Varsoon.

Why are you trying to push it as something more?

Because even tho your statement was logical, it wasn't natural IMO.

[Havo]

Should I make all my posts in the way that you would speak?

YES.

[Havo]

seemed pretty natural to me

this is me hard defending penguin

LOL, I'm not surprised, every time I've pushed for a Gamma flip it always gets derailed.

[Havo]

seemed pretty natural to me

this is me hard defending penguin

LOL, I'm not surprised, every time I've pushed for a Gamma flip it always gets derailed.

Like I said...I'm hard defending him

we're obv the scumteam

we are the droids you're looking for

No, I don't think your scum, I think you've done some things to make me doubt you, But I don't think your scum.

[Havo]

@Frog

What do you think happened last night?

Do you think scum chose not to kill?

[Havo]

it seems most likely to me that pengamma is town and aptil is scum, but I have no fucking clue.

See, why do you say shit like that?

LMAO.

[Havo]

Because it reads hardest to me like you taking the reigns of game control, ushering us into a Penguin color flip rather than anywhere else. And I want to know why that's important to you.

that's funny because Havo thinks I'm trying to avoid a Penguin color flip at all costs

No that's not true. Not at ALL costs. Lol.

I just haven't gotten what I wanted and I can get pissy when that happens.

And I really really hate getting fooled.

[Havo]

inb4 I'm scum who knew penguin was flipping blue

Proxy my vote to Frogger.

[Havo]

I would expect no less. Lol

[Havo]

Good grief.

Mod can u prod everyone?

[Havo]

To me, scum is almost certainly on the Raya wagon, out of Fro99er, aptil, MaxwellPuckett, Bomberman, and Havo.
Which makes my skin crawl that we colorflipped Penguin instead of one of those suspects, and it drives my paranoia more because fro99er lead that push for the colorflip.
Where this gets unnerving is looking at people who were complicit with colorflipping OUTSIDE of the Raya wagon: MaxwellPuckett, Bomberman, Havo, Fro99er.
Literally the whole Raya wagon with the exception of Aptil, who was voting for Maxwell.

What does this mean to me?
We should be most critical of Bomberman/Havo.
If we find scum in Max/Aptil, it's very likely the other is town.
Fro99er continues to be an enigma to me and why they color checked outside of the Raya wagon confounds me.

Go back and read the entire situation leading up to the Raya lynch. I had voted JJ and went to bed, that entire thing happened without me.

I woke up and the lynch deadline was within an hour so I hammered Raya, because I felt like that was a better option than No lynching.

[Havo]

My bad, that's the Lynch wagon.
The color wagon that sealed his fate actually had Aptil, Havo, and Max off of it.

Once again, Havo is the most common link here.

I really think we should have color flipped Havo and, in lieu of doing so, we should look at that slot a lot more today.

Yes, well you weren't around so we had to do things without you.

But please, yes look at me all you want.

[Havo]

I feel like there's 2 guys pushing this game in certain directions, if you read thru the thread it's sticks out like a sore thumb, but those 2 guys have been heavily TR by almost everyone.

So it's almost Taboo to bring them up.

[Havo]

I think Aptil is the best lynch at the moment.

I've never played mafia where scum could choose not to night kill, so that throws me off. So Aptil's claim is super fishy to me. Because it came to get the lynch wagon off of him.

IF I were scum I would never skip a night kill. Just like when I'm town I will never choose to No lynch. Just not in my psyche to do so. Goes against everything I know about mafia.

Aptil has been heavy read as Scummy by a lot of people, myself included, so at this time I think Aptil is the best lynch.

That's where I'm at for now.

[Havo]

Gonna guess me and fro99er?

Nope,

Frogger and Max are the 2 I was thinking of.

[Havo]

Gonna guess me and fro99er?

Your posts have been very sensible to me and your vote on TwoFace's color flip is too hard for me to get by to put you as a scum lean.

[Havo]

I don't see Max controlling game flow that much, though I definitely see it in the case of Fro99er.
Where do you see Max pushing direction of the game a lot?

I could swing an Aptil lynch, too, since they're in my pool of suspects, though I'd kick myself in the ass forever if they flip town because scum making us lynch our own vig is definitely what they'd want if Aptil is town.

Max always comes in right behind Frog and agrees with him and basically sheeps him.

Aptil claimed 1 shot Vig, so even if he were telling the truth, he has already taken his shot.

[Havo]

The biggest issue I have with Frog, is ...........

Why is he still alive?

He's been lead townie from the get go.

I still think he's town tho, just one of those things that eats at me, makes my paranoia talk to me.

[Havo]

I would like to see more play from Penguin.

He's confirmed town pretty much, and I know he's a good player, so I'd like to hear his thoughts.

[Havo]

I feel like there's 2 guys pushing this game in certain directions, if you read thru the thread it's sticks out like a sore thumb, but those 2 guys have been heavily TR by almost everyone.

So it's almost Taboo to bring them up.

No it's not . Why are you afraid to bring them up ?

I brought them up, Frog and Max.

[Havo]

I feel like there's 2 guys pushing this game in certain directions, if you read thru the thread it's sticks out like a sore thumb, but those 2 guys have been heavily TR by almost everyone.

So it's almost Taboo to bring them up.

No it's not . Why are you afraid to bring them up ?

I brought them up, Frog and Max.

I mean go after them or grill them.

Because I'm torn, I need to go back and re read the entire thread is what I need to do, so I'm gonna try and do that this afternoon.

[Havo]

I think Aptil is the best lynch at the moment.

I've never played mafia where scum could choose not to night kill, so that throws me off. So Aptil's claim is super fishy to me. Because it came to get the lynch wagon off of him.

IF I were scum I would never skip a night kill. Just like when I'm town I will never choose to No lynch. Just not in my psyche to do so. Goes against everything I know about mafia.

Aptil has been heavy read as Scummy by a lot of people, myself included, so at this time I think Aptil is the best lynch.

That's where I'm at for now.

It's not fairly uncommon for scum to hold their kill at night on this site. Tactically speaking it's not such a disadvantage for them , one more kill last night would have been just one mislynch and MyLo but with significantly lesser pool to play there , i would have been mostly cleared in that scenario and people would look elsewhere even today.
Now they have one more chance suspect in me which is keeping the game stale as we are still working out issues from yesterday and not moving on. My sense is they were betting on me getting lynched today quickly so that they one mislynch to LyLo with more paranoia and less time to play with .

This explanation makes perfect sense and is why you weren't color flipped tbh.

It's a good think we got scum on Day 1, cause we hadn't done much of shat since.

[Havo]

I don't see Max controlling game flow that much, though I definitely see it in the case of Fro99er.
Where do you see Max pushing direction of the game a lot?

I could swing an Aptil lynch, too, since they're in my pool of suspects, though I'd kick myself in the ass forever if they flip town because scum making us lynch our own vig is definitely what they'd want if Aptil is town.

Max always comes in right behind Frog and agrees with him and basically sheeps him.

Aptil claimed 1 shot Vig, so even if he were telling the truth, he has already taken his shot.

Basically i'm a VT at this point but that doesn't mean i should be lynched as i have nothing to do in the night phase of this game.I have been pretty active to try and solve this game. If i'm your top suspect fair enough but that's because of the nightkill and which really has nothing to do with me.

If you were reading me as scum before today can you point those posts out to me ?

Pedit:@Havo: Can you at least see the Max case i put out a few pages ago

I will look at it closer with the thread re read.

[Havo]

Okay after reading the entire thread again, this is where I'm at with reads:

Strong Town -
Frogger
Varsoon
Penguin

Lean Town:
Bomberman
Maxwell


Null:
Aptil

Slight scum:
Apricity
Aristophannes



I've never been accused of being a good mafia player, so there's that.
If Frogger is scum then hat's off to him for playing a great game, that's all I'll say.
Varsoon has me convinced he's town.
Penguin is town if Frog is town.
Bomberman was first on TwoFace colorflip, he had plenty of chance to get off and he didn't.
Max was conveniently absent during the entire TwoFace colorflip, but his posts have been townie IMO since.
Aptil, has been scummy at times, claimed 1 shot Vig to avoid being lynched, claims to have shot JJ last night when there was only 1 kill. Scum not killing to frame him is very believable but doesn't set well with my gut. But I don't know.
Apricity, has been very passive, going with the flow a lot, not really scum hunting, not super active.
Ari, very little if any game solving in his ISO. He voted TwoFace for the color flip, but after Frog demanded it. He could have gotten off at some point
but it would've have looked bad IMO.

So I have no hard scum reads, I would feel much better color flipping Ari or Apricity as opposed to straight lynching, but obviously that's not an option.

[Havo]

I go back and forth on Aptil, so I would be okay with an Aptil lynch.

But if Frog, Penguin and Varsoon can come to a consensus on who to lynch I'd be down with that for sure.

[Havo]

I really wish people would post and play. Our deadlines are really short and chances are that scum want to take advantage of that.

So You want to lynch one of the few active players?

But if Frog, Penguin and Varsoon can come to a consensus on who to lynch I'd be down with that for sure.

I've already stated my stance, which is a bit at-odds with Havo who would lead lynches away from my pool of suspects.

How is this me leading people away from your suspects exactly?

[Havo]

There's been a certain stigma about this game where TwoFace flipped red and everyone just assumed that the people involved preemptively (Me, Varsoon, Fro99er and perhaps Aristo) were immediately town because of it. I don't like this being put on me and I would ask people read what I am saying instead of being right on someone who even a blind person could see was scum.

This is just bull. So I'm supposed to believe that scum Would vote their own partner without any pressure on them to do this?

[Havo]

Aptil, you said you didn't get a shot in yes? Roleblocked of the sort? Try again. Shoot someone you think is scum because I'm not gonna direct your shot and give you something to pin the blame on in the case you're scum.

I shot JJ .

[Havo]

Aptil, you said you didn't get a shot in yes? Roleblocked of the sort? Try again. Shoot someone you think is scum because I'm not gonna direct your shot and give you something to pin the blame on in the case you're scum.

I shot JJ .

Where the Hell does the "Roleblock" of some sort come from??????

[Havo]

I've already stated my stance, which is a bit at-odds with Havo who would lead lynches away from my pool of suspects.

VOTE: Havo
I'll stand by this.

We're better off with Frog alive. Tomorrow, we color flip him and have him check someone who isn't him. If he's town, that gives us the best info, imo. If he's scum, we'll at least have associatives.

So you're saying I'm a better lynch than Apricity or April or Ari?

You'd rather lynch someone who's trying to game solve than someone who's not?

[Havo]

We're better off with Frog alive. Tomorrow, we color flip him and have him check someone who isn't him. If he's town, that gives us the best info, imo. If he's scum, we'll at least have associatives.

What?

What make you think Frog will be alive tomorrow? What makes you think scum won't kill him or paint him?

[Havo]

Well both of you guys @Varsoon & @Bomberman need to think about what you want to do when I flip town.

[Havo]

You could just prove my assumptions wrong by not acting in a way that makes you guilty in my eyes. What did you gain out of Gamma flipping town? You never elaborated because this was apparently your big scumread.

Exactly! What do you want me to say? I was wrong and Gamma was my biggest and only hard scum read.

I've re read the entire damn thread and posted my thoughts. Who the hell else has done that?

I don't currently have a Hard scum read, so what the hell am I supposed to do?

Your pushing me because I haven't found scum yet, well, who the hell has?

I'm active, I'm giving my reads, posting my open thoughts.

Doing what I can to find scum, I just haven't had anyone seriously ping my scum dar since Gamma.

[Havo]

And I'm not gonna push someone just to please you and your agenda.

You haven't answered the questions I asked you either.

I don't think you even read the damn thread half the time.

[Havo]

You noted Apricity/Aristo as slightly scum, are they just not doing enough to feel like you have anything worthwhile to bring about them?

Yes, the only thing I got on them is they aren't really scum hunting, they are just barely following the thread and staying just active enough not to get lynched.

But neither one has pinged me,

Plus it's hard as hell to push someone who isn't active.

[Havo]

The only 2 claims in the game, Frog and Aptil both are extremely easy to fake, there's no question about that.

But with Frogger, I don't see him doing that, he was hell bent on flipping TwoFace Day 1, and IMO he led the color flip away from Gamma, but Gamma flipped town Blue anyway.

He got off of JJ also, but again, JJ flipped town anyway.

And Frogger reads town to me, over and over.

[Havo]

Give those thoughts a bit more "oomph." to them. That doesn't tell me anything in particular which isn't what Mafia is about. I agree with you that Aristo/Apricity have not been giving much effort, but I hold my reservations because of how the game has been played out. I know it's not been specifically stated, but Fro99er has made it really hard for others to talk. He's controlled the gamestate for a while now and I don't really blame them for wanting to post if they feel like they're not going to be listened to. Do I think that opinion can be reflected on you also? No, and I gave reasons as to why that is. You need to give reasons why their behavior is not merely apathetic townies, without just saying 'they're not scumhunting.'

OK, I'll see what I can do. Give me a few.

[Havo]

One more thing, it's stupidly hard to read slots like Aristo/Apricity. I keep them in the back of my mind waiting for some sort of spark, but it's never really come.

The worst thing about being wrong about someone is the fact you were wrong on them because of their own indifference. This gives me pause about those two in this particular instance because they are bordering on useless, and right now we've tried the approach of 'useless' and that person turned out to be town (Gamma). At that point, you have to ask yourself if scum is really just sitting in the background watching fro99er mislynch everyone for him.

The likely answer for me is no, but what's further is that if somehow it's not him it's gotta be Varsoon. That's where I'm at right now and then me wanting Havo is just in conjuction with everything else going on, where Havo just looks like the odd man out to me.

See this is the problem with the Bolded part, it's the same thing I'm saying.

[Havo]

One more thing, it's stupidly hard to read slots like Aristo/Apricity. I keep them in the back of my mind waiting for some sort of spark, but it's never really come.

The worst thing about being wrong about someone is the fact you were wrong on them because of their own indifference. This gives me pause about those two in this particular instance because they are bordering on useless, and right now we've tried the approach of 'useless' and that person turned out to be town (Gamma). At that point, you have to ask yourself if scum is really just sitting in the background watching fro99er mislynch everyone for him.

The likely answer for me is no, but what's further is that if somehow it's not him it's gotta be Varsoon. That's where I'm at right now and then me wanting Havo is just in conjuction with everything else going on, where Havo just looks like the odd man out to me.

See this is the problem with the Bolded part, it's the same thing I'm saying.

[Havo]

@Bomber.
Why have you completely ignored the questions I asked you?

[Havo]

vote: Max

Because he's basically just sheeped Frog with his votes

[Havo]

It's funny how everyone basically has the same reads.

Yet I'm being allied out for it.

[Havo]

*Called

[Havo]

@Bomber.
Why have you completely ignored the questions I asked you?

[Havo]

@Bomber.
Why have you completely ignored the questions I asked you?

[Havo]

@Bomber.
Why have you completely ignored the questions I asked you?

[Havo]

Bomber is easier.
Been townreading him since the whole d1 jjh vote thing and its gone up and down since then.

In hindsight he should actually be higher than Apricity tbh, who doesnt look as towny as I remember just as I looked through her post.

You were going to explain why you were reading Apricity as town and you look at her again and come up with this.

This.

[Havo]

This is fast approaching the worst mafia game I have ever played in due to the

Complete lack of participation.

So if you wanna lynch me, yeah go ahead.

[Havo]

Looks like good work Frog.

[Havo]

Just out of curiosity,

Does anyone actually have a real scum read on me?

[Havo]

No I have no defense.

I'm just asking, cause I haven't seen anything other than I'm just the odd man out.

Which I can live with that.

[Havo]

I read everything fro99er did as merely busy work and nothing more. Havo, what question is there you wanted me to answer? I don't really know why you're lying down and just letting this happen.

I'm not laying down. I have no defense because I need no defense

No one voting me has anything on me as far as scummy behavior.

I'm apparently just less town. Never mind that I've played and scum

Hunted more than the others at the bottom of every one else's lists.

[Havo]

And hey, according to Frog we have the game won. So there's that.

[Havo]

All Varsoon has is that I was on the Raya wagon.

Which I've already explained.

All Bomber has is that I'm not scum hunting the way he wants me too.

And Frog has no reason period.

So we're L-2 from another mislynch.

[Havo]

I read everything fro99er did as merely busy work and nothing more. Havo, what question is there you wanted me to answer? I don't really know why you're lying down and just letting this happen.

I want to hear your comments about my posts

1435
1436
1437.

[Havo]

at this point I've eliminated max and bomber. If it's them it's GG town anyway I think.

I don't like this at all. This guy is giving a free pass to Max because of an assumption which at best is a reach anyways.

Yeah and Max has conveniently disappeared again.

[Havo]

I think it's becoming apparent that scum is trying to push this game towards

LyLo with only apathetic townies left to try and figure this out.

The Penguin was supposed to post his thoughts on Sunday. It's now Tuesday.

Ari and Apricity are always apologizing for being busy. Very few people are trying to game solve.

So of course scum wants to get rid of the ones trying to play.

[Havo]

It's also becoming obvious that scum has fooled us quite well so far as no one has any solid scum reads.

So that makes me think my reads must be wrong. As is a lot of people's apparently.

I think it's too much of a coincidence for this to be the case. So scum must be pretty good.

So that makes me wonder about Varsoon and Frog that much more.

[Havo]

at this point I've eliminated max and bomber. If it's them it's GG town anyway I think.

I don't like this at all. This guy is giving a free pass to Max because of an assumption which at best is a reach anyways.

Kinda funny how as soon as Max gets a second vote from me,

Frog comes out and basically clears him.

[Havo]

Ok I'm gonna get my ducks in a row. Should be able to post my thoughts shortly.

Like with in a couple of hours.

[Havo]

Just finished Day 1 page 21.

I wish Infinity was still alive.

Day 1 looks really bad for Aptil.

Posts 389 & 390 Especially. And he was very interested in Infinity's reads.

[Havo]

vote : Aptil

You're scum dude.

Posts :

389/390/517/518/542/714/

[Havo]

I'm not liking Bomber for:

Posts 148/275/278/316/*530*/534/551/**708**/853/974

[Havo]

Penguin has not picked up their prod and will be replaced.
Revolving door slot gogogo!!!!

Typically this means scum. Willing to lynch.

But as I read back I will stage intent on Aptil should it be required.

That spot flipped Blue.

[Havo]

It's also becoming obvious that scum has fooled us quite well so far as no one has any solid scum reads.

So that makes me think my reads must be wrong. As is a lot of people's apparently.

I think it's too much of a coincidence for this to be the case. So scum must be pretty good.

So that makes me wonder about Varsoon and Frog that much more.

let me just have this here Havo. When i get lynched you can look back at your own comment and start re-evaluating.

I just spent the last 2 and a half hours reading the thread and taking notes.

I'm good. But thx.

[Havo]

See, here's where you would be calling me scum if you were actually town.

Instead of asking my thoughts on Max.

[Havo]

Guys I'll post my thoughts in a few hours. I'm stuck at work ATM.

I do think our last scum lies in : Bomber/Ari/Apricity.

I have a solid TR on Varsoon, so I'd rather flip one of those other 3.

[Havo]

Okay as I was going back thru the game thread before the lynch, Bomber and Apricity stood out to me most.

Bomber for the posts I listed, lots of scummy things and weird vibes.
Apricity for just a lack of scum hunting and almost a sense of lurking.
Apricity showed she was a good player during day 1 with a lot of her posts, but she seems too willing to just lay back.

Then Ari did this -

Please vote for Max here , there is no way that guy is not scum. Promises reads and just goes away and comes back to sheep Mr Frog and he's just repeating it again today.

I'm in.

VOTE: Max

I've been getting weird reads all game here and I dislike the way he flipped on me for being "slimy".

I will still hammer within the hour If I have to.

[Havo]

So personally I'd prefer to flip one of those 3.

[Havo]

Titus, do you think a player like Varsoon would risk such a ballsy strat and not NK? I'm basing the remaining scum on that play.

Actually, I just realized how stupid I sound. Of course there wasn't a second kill, and of course the only action Aptil had was to claim he was roleblocked. The JJ kill

was

the NK. Nevermind this thought process entirely. I've been wrapped up in the idea of the TwoFace wagon having at least one scum, and I'm not taking about when he was confirmed after the flip. This is what led me to believe one of Varsoon/Fro99er were scum, but I'm not really sure anymore.

Fro99er "cleared" Max last phase, and you're clear based on flip, so at least that's two things to not worry about.

Okay, I just don't get it Bomber. WTH?

I understand you got hung up, but Aptil NEVER claimed a roleblock.

[Havo]

at this point I've eliminated max and bomber. If it's them it's GG town anyway I think.

@Bomber,

What are your thoughts on Apricity and Ari?

[Havo]

I think we should flip Varsoon for color just based on the contention in current reads there.

Thoughts?

I'd rather flip someone else, but I'm okay with what ever the majority of my town reads want.

Popular consensus has been that's there's 3 scum total, if that is indeed the case then we have a couple of days and if a Varsoon flip will make everyone feel better I'm okay with it.

[Havo]

IT's not like we're lynching the slot anyway right? Is there a separate vote we use to flip color but not kill someone?

Yes first one is colorflip. Mod reveals then day continues and we do a lynch.

[Havo]

I think we should flip Varsoon for color just based on the contention in current reads there.

Thoughts?

I didn't think there was any contention of reads on my slot other than bomber's paranoia.
Max brought it up because he thinks I'm unlikely to be painted, though I find that the most likely painted players are between me, Aristo, and Havo.

I'd much rather color flip someone who I'm unsure of but who is also far less likely to have been painted.

What about Apricity?

[Havo]

vote: Apricity

[Havo]

Nah, I'm thinking Varsoon/Havo/Bomberman in there

Can you elaborate more on your thoughts/reads on those 3?

[Havo]

Please vote for Max here , there is no way that guy is not scum. Promises reads and just goes away and comes back to sheep Mr Frog and he's just repeating it again today.

I'm in.

VOTE: Max

I've been getting weird reads all game here and I dislike the way he flipped on me for being "slimy".

I will still hammer within the hour If I have to.

Ari, can you talk more about this?

Frog claimed that Max was all but cleared based on his actions. Max has claimed he had good reason to follow Frog.

I think we've all gotten weird reads at times on Max, but overall he's been townread.

[Havo]

Ari, Varsoon, Havo, Bomberman

VOTE: Bomber

Is that list most town to least town?

IF so? Why Ari over Varsoon?

[Havo]

Haven't read since last post, but I'll be back from V/LA tomorrow night and will get back into the swing of things then. I'm very sorry for my lack of activity. Not lurking. I've just had much less time than I thought I did.

Still have a feeling it's not Bomberman though.

Really hope you can find time to post your thoughts, as you've been confirmed town.

[Havo]

I wish it was that easy, but imo aptil was def getting lynched. Even if you guys had managed to swing that to me, my townflip woulda gotten aptil in deep water and Varsoon would have looked a lot worse.
Still townreading him but the hammer would not be why.

Havo the list was def not ordered haha but I guess I could see how it would look that way
Also, lets talk about your read on me for a sec. Specifically 1667 bc I def remember you having issues w me because I was sheeping Frog, but you say overall I've been townread when youre asking Ari about his read. I might be misremembering the timeline of events but when did you start believing Frogger's clear? you def didnt before
Havent gotten the chance to do the work I wanted yet

I had went back and forth on Frog for most of the first 2 days. I felt he was town but he kept giving me an uneasy feeling, Bomber brought up some issues that I'd been feeling also, he was kind of riding rough shot over everyone. But overall I kept getting a town vibe out of him. After re reading the thread I was convinced he was town.

As far you it was similar to Frog, the things I didn't like about you were that you came to the game late and kinda missed the entire TwoFace flip, then you seem to be sheeping Frog of quite a few votes, but Frog cleared you for the most part and when he flipped town I believe it sealed mostly. Also Aptil tried his hardest to flip his wagon on to you. I don't think he would have targeted you that hard if you were his scum buddy, I think I would have been a lot easier sell for Aptil as opposed to you.

I think most everyone else has had the same read on you. They have gotten a town vibe but not a completely convincing one.

[Havo]

Right now, we know Penguin and Apricity are Town.

after that I feel like Max is most town, then

Varsoon,

I have Ari and Bomber after that.

I have issues with each of the 3

[Havo]

With Varsoon I'm bothered by this:

Titus, do you think a player like Varsoon would risk such a ballsy strat and not NK? I'm basing the remaining scum on that play.

If I'm scum, I'll do anything to secure a win. If an NK was the best way to get us to victory, I'd gamble on it. I guess I tend to play high-risk, high-reward as scum a lot?
Regardless, it seems pretty clear that Aptil claimed the way they did to try to bait out PR claims, imo. Which leads me to believe that scum think there might be more town power than what we've already seen.

Someone explain to me how the paint mechanic works on this game please.

During the first half of the day phase, we only vote to see a player's current color.
Town players generally begin the game colored BLUE.
Mafia players generally begin the game colored RED.
From what we've seen, players can end up colored PURPLE.

Given the flips from town so far, I think that whatever scum remains is either a PR or scum have factional abilities beyond just painting a single person purple at night. No way that town gets both a jailkeeper and, essentially, a second cop if scum is all just goons.

I think we should flip Varsoon for color just based on the contention in current reads there.

Thoughts?

I didn't think there was any contention of reads on my slot other than bomber's paranoia.
Max brought it up because he thinks I'm unlikely to be painted, though I find that the most likely painted players are between me, Aristo, and Havo.

It's like Varsoon is hinting at scum being more powerful, like maybe they can paint more than one person at night, which to me looks like he might be setting up the play as to why he might flip a different color.

As I disagree with him being likely to have been painted last night, I think Myself, then Bomber and maybe Ari for his attempt to flip the wagon on Aptil.

But I don't think Varsoon would have really been a paint candidate. But that's open for debate.

[Havo]

What bothers me about Ari is his aloof play, which has been kind of played off as his meta.

Then of course he took a shot at flipping the Aptil paint wagon.

[Havo]

What bothers me about Bomber is :

I'm not liking Bomber for:

Posts 148/275/278/316/*530*/534/551/**708**/853/974

There's quite a few posts there that don't sit well with me.

[Havo]

Oh--I'm saying to consider game balance.
Town has a Jailer. Town has a soft-cop that informs where to shoot with their public day cop. Town has a public day cop.
What abilities have we seen scum with? Goons and the ability to make people purple.
I would say that we account for more and we don't rule bussing out as a strategy, given scum has given up two goons and no PRs.
In every previous game, scum had PRs. I either see Cheetory doing that again or giving scum a lot of factional power that wasn't in the previous games.
That's why making assumptions based around the info we had on deck re:fro99er wasn't going to hard-clear anyone, because we don't know the full mechanics at play.

That's a valid point, but it's also an obvious one IMO.

We're not gonna know the complete mechanics til it's over, making assumptions have to be done with some common sense.

[Havo]

I'm still interested in a mass-claim regardless of who is being voted today.

I'm not opposed to a mass claim.

[Havo]

Is there anything that precludes scum from being blue?

We're not 100% sure, we don't believe so based on this:

Just went back to make sure--in the first game, the scum team could paint a player blue once per game and had infinite uses of painting a player red, green, orange, yellow, black, white and purple. There was also a mechanic revolving around 'freshly' painted players where several roles could figure out if a player had just had their color changed.

Cheetory didn't like the 'bastard' elements of painting a player red/blue and also didn't like how some role interactions could allow town a very easy victory (one player could check what the total color of players were of each color at night and another could remove one player from that check, essentially letting town, if coordinated, color-check players each night as well as each day).

The second game was scaled down to a 13 player setup and the 'wet paint' mechanic was removed. Town roles were made more direct/straightforward, too and scum power was taken down a whole lot. In that game, the mafia could only paint players as Black, white, red, orange, green, yellow or purple.


So, why bring all this up?

I was thinking about my first post here and started to recall that scum could paint players a lot of different colors, then realized that in the first game they could even paint players red and blue. In the design topic for the game, I recall telling Cheetory that I thought Mafia might, outside of gambits, only paint players blue/red because that's most effective at throwing a wrench into town strategies based on public mechanics.

While it's clear that between game 1 and 2, Cheetory removed painting players blue, the ability to paint them red stayed in.

That said, I would still trust that Red = Scum unless we have any provable role-claims that can show us otherwise.

And for D1, Red definitely equals scum and Blue definitely equals town.

Just flip the script here from what I said previously:

BLUE players are very, very likely CONFIRMED TOWN unless someone can prove that players can change others blue.
RED players are likely to be CONFIRMED SCUM in the EARLY GAME but we can't rely on that as much moving forward.
Again, this is somewhat speculative, as Cheetory could've changed some core things between the second game and this one, but
I do NOT see Cheetory giving Mafia the ability to paint players blue, since he really didn't like how much that could skew things in scum's favor in the first game and was essentially 'bastard'.

The only thing we have seen so far was JJH flipping Purple. He started out as Blue.

[Havo]

Based on Havo's play I don't know I'm really sold on Havo being the (individual) last scum, and that might seems like a slight against his intelligence but I feel it is a bit warranted. Scum were anticipating Aptil being revealed and they wanted to use him being painted purple as a possibility of him being town, wihch I don't really know if those calculations could be made with Havo/Aptil alone. Is there a possibility of 4-man scumteam?

LMAO! R u serious dude?

Nothing reveals character like when someone goes out of their way to be a dick.

But you do you man.

[Havo]

You've been someone who plays more emotionally and focuses on the tone of things instead of someone who seems like they're meticulous and calculating. This is true even based on the response you gave to me, which you focused on the fact I questioned your intelligence on a certain play.

And you could have said what you said without being a dick about it. But you chose not too.

Like I said, you do you man.

[Havo]

Havo's engagement strikes me as town making an effort, but their vote patterns and play in regards to wagons doesn't.

Hmm.... That looks a lot like this.

Not voting you, Frogger was townreading Havo, and Ari's vote placement throughout the game when I looked at it last night actually looks sorta townish while Bomber's does not

[Havo]

I don't understand the conclusions Havo made about Aptil so abruptly and suddenly last phase when he seemingly did not have Aptil on his radar previously to that. There is also a disconnect between what he felt earlier that phase and how he acted oonce it seemed like Aptil was getting the hammer. I ISO'd him and he had Aptil in this PoE list for remaining scum, but seemed to change it around the #861 mark. I guess what bothers me even more is that in regard to this post:

vote : Aptil

You're scum dude.

Posts :

389/390/517/518/542/714/

I know people can have a change of heart, but if these were so relevant to suddenly scumreading Aptil, why didn't he bring it up before? He never addressed these points seemingly up against them. It just reads so shoddy and lazy, to the point where I can hardly believe it. This is furthered by his behavior in the posts made that phase, which feels like a disconnect at times, keeping him at comfortably null in his #1415, but doesn't make sense when he makes posts like #1937 where he states

clear

intent to believe that Aptil is scum and doesn't trust his claim. Even worse when he writes it off at the moment that Aptil is not going to be color-flipped in his #1413 based on one meager response by Aptil.

I understand town can be scatterbrained, but please tell me how this thought process makes sense from a town who thoroughly thought it through. You know what's even worse though? Aptil making this post:

It's also becoming obvious that scum has fooled us quite well so far as no one has any solid scum reads.

So that makes me think my reads must be wrong. As is a lot of people's apparently.

I think it's too much of a coincidence for this to be the case. So scum must be pretty good.

So that makes me wonder about Varsoon and Frog that much more.

let me just have this here Havo. When i get lynched you can look back at your own comment and start re-evaluating.

I just spent the last 2 and a half hours reading the thread and taking notes.

I'm good. But thx.

This looks extremely forced in the grand scheme of things.

This is pure fabrication on your part, it's obvious you are pushing an agenda here. Or you didn't bother to read my ISO.
Because Aptil was definitely on my radar the whole time. Watch ............

[Havo]

I think Gamma is the best to color flip at this point, based mainly off a process of elimination. And a couple of his posts I didn't feel good about.

My current town leans are:

Bomberman
Varsoon
Frogger
JJ
Aristo
Apricity

That leaves :
Gamma
Max
Raya
Aptil

Raya and Max are not very active, that doesn't give them a pass of course but it does give them an excuse IMO more so than Gamma or Aptil. Looking at the color flip vote, Gamma and Aptil both were not own it.

Looking at the lynch vote, again, neither were on it. And both are active enough to be IMO.

NOw I know several have said they believe scum would have been on the vote and I don't deny it's a realistic probability, but given a few of Gamma's posts, which I'll quote here in a minute, I just feel like flipping Gamma would be the best choice right now.

This was early on and I had Aptil squarely in my sights.

Havo talk to me about apricity

Talk to me about Aptil

here I'm asking for Apricity to elaborate on her Aptil thoughts.

I go back and forth on Aptil, but if gamma is scum aptil is town

So a color flip on either would make you feel good about the other?

Win-Win?

here I'm pushing for a color flip on Gamma OR Aptil, I just wanted Gamma more.

[Havo]

I didn't push Aptil because Gamms pinged me where Aptil did not.

Frog was pushing the town agenda and I couldn't get anyone to take the Aptil Vig claim serious.

Frog was determined to let Aptil live for the time being.

My vote came on Aptil LITERALLY while I was re reading the thread. I Posted as much.

[Havo]

Bomber and Varsoon have been pushing me for sometime now, that's fine.

When I flip maybe I'll be purple and you will know who was painted last night.

[Havo]

The truth is the remaining Townies have no Idea who the last scum is.

No one has a hard scum read so it's made it easy for scum to push me.

Either that or the people pushing me or bad town players.

[Havo]

Good setup for my post, Havo.
You couldn't have timed that better.

Yeah, you just confirmed what I was saying, thanks VArsoon.

I was onto Aptil early, so you should see what BS Bomber's accusation is. He's pushing an Agenda.

The wagon changed to Aptil WHILE I was rereading the thread.

Frog TR me, it took the wagon off me and when I flip town that should tell the rest of the townies what's up.

[Havo]

Also, notice how Bomber is trying to bait me into a personal argument, lol.

I've always found that this was a desperate attempt to frame a player by attempting to get that player to over react. lol.

[Havo]

Havo's engagement strikes me as town making an effort, but their vote patterns and play in regards to wagons doesn't.

Hmm.... That looks a lot like this.

Not voting you, Frogger was townreading Havo, and Ari's vote placement throughout the game when I looked at it last night actually looks sorta townish while Bomber's does not

What exactly is significant about Varsoon looking at vote patterns as well? Its not exactly a niche scumhunting tool

I was just pointing out that Bomber's vote record was poor.

[Havo]

Since I'm at L-1 I'll go ahead and say I'm a VT.

I was told I was blue and have no other reason to believe I'm not now other than I think I was most likely to have been painted last night phase.

[Havo]

I've never claimed to be a good mafia player and this is my 3rd game here. First outside of the 2 newbies.

And I haven't played forum mafia in about 4 or 5 years til these 3.

[Havo]

vote: Bomberman

[Havo]

You continue to defend yourself when all I want is elaboration and explanation of your thought processes.

Why don't you ask me a specific question then?

I've posted my open thoughts more than anyone else has. Time and time again I've said exactly what I was thinking and I've only been attacked for it. There are players that have barely contributed to the game and they draw no scrutiny at all. I posy my thoughts in an attempt to get discussion going and I get called out for it.

[Havo]

What does AtEing mean?

[Havo]

@Bomber, ok look.

You asked me to step up my play before, so I went back and re read the entire thread. I posted I was doing so, even gave updates, during that time Frog decided to change the wagon, That's not my fault. I posted what i was doing, even game time estimates. After that I posted the posts which I thought were super scummy by Aptil and voted Aptil.

I also posted my other thoughts, the posts by you that i found scummy. I also pointed out Ari's attempt to disrupt the lynch wagon on Aptil that NO ONE has said anything about.

I've said time and again that I have no hard scum read on anyone. So pushing for a lynch on anyone is only gonna make me look scummy, and you know that.

You call me out for not trying to game solve, yet I AM trying to game solve in my own way, while there are others who haven't done anything. You yourself haven't done it, other than build a shit case vs me. I find that HYPOCRITICAL as hell.

I'm not trying to appeal to anyone's emotions, If you want to vote me, then vote me.

[Havo]

Just realized I asked for a second opinion on Havo twice. I'm not a miracle worker and I want to feel like people are at least glancing at my posts. We've lynched two scum but I will say that one got himself lynched and the other fell through by circumstance. I don't necessarily believe I'm playing an excellent game or that I'm some kind of savant, if anything I'm quite critical of myself. I do not want to make this decision merely on my own, and I would love to see someone besides Varsoon talk to me how they feel about this phase and the players remaining.

Yeah, no one else is playing the game.

I've said this before, and this is SUPPOSED to be a Blitz game? lmao.

[Havo]

What you posted didn't make sense to me because it wasn't conclusive. Try and articulate your thoughts in a way that is more clear. Why were my posts scummy? Linking something and saying it is 'scummy' does not make it scummy. You have to give. a. reason. This is something you're lacking and I have been trying to get that out of you, but you want to insist to make comments like this:

I've said time and again that I have no hard scum read on anyone. So pushing for a lynch on anyone is only gonna make me look scummy, and you know that.

You call me out for not trying to game solve, yet I AM trying to game solve in my own way, while there are others who haven't done anything. You yourself haven't done it, other than build a shit case vs me. I find that HYPOCRITICAL as hell.

I'm not trying to appeal to anyone's emotions, If you want to vote me, then vote me.

Bolded, If you don't have a hard scumread, then why have you been feigning as if you're set on me? This is things that just don't make sense to me. This is things I have a problem with you for. What does it mean that ""I" know that? You're again trying to AtE, but maybe that's your playstyle? You're trying to say that you've been playing bad/a bad town player therefore any discredit against you isn't justified because of it. Stop it.

Because you are at the bottom of my list, with Ari and Varsoon.

I'm not convinced your scum tbh. but after re reading the thread I found quite a few time you said things that looked bad IMO. And I think the case your building against me is weak, like when you said I wans't FOSing Aptil, you can read my ISO and clearly see I was. But Frog had a townbloc going and was controlling the game, so pushing for Aptil wasn't gonna go anywhere IMO. I voted to lynch Aptil when I didn't have to, I could've easily laid off that or even FOS'd somone else.

[Havo]

..If you're not convinced I'm scum then why the fuck are you voting me?

I have a very specific reason. And if I say................

There's a reason I'm here and haven't went anywhere.

[Havo]

Pray tell what the specific reason is, please.

Fine, because I wanted to see if someone in particular would come in and vote you.

[Havo]

Maybe I'm not the town player the game deserves,

Maybe I'm the town player this game needs.

[Havo]

unvote

[Havo]

This argument looks sort of TvT... maybe? I'm looking into you both rn.
Havo who's this someone in particular? Youve already admitted to what the point of your vote was

Ari.

It's hard to try things like that when the game is so inactive tho.

[Havo]

VOTE: Aristophanes
Heck, I don't know. There's no readable content here and it's messing with my PoE. I don't think Havo is scum, still trying to make up my mind on Bomber.

My guts telling me Bomber isn't scum.

For me that leaves Ari then Varsoon.

I need to go back and look at Ari's voting pattern.

I'm having to work all day today so hopefully I can break it down later.

[Havo]

I'm not going to lynch Aristo.

Is your TR on him that good?

[Havo]

{aptil, apricity}
{aptil, havo}
{aptil, ari}
{apricity, havo}
{apricity, ari}
{havo, ari}

This was Frogs handiwork.

Aptil we know was scum.

It's me, Ari or Apricity. & Apricity is clear.