Mini 1942 - Switchboard 2 [Game Over]

[Mjollnir]

I like Rat's idea, as far as I can see it'll work as long as we agree to leave a claimed PR alone, if their switch is on. I also don't see how having a PR affects what priority number they'd have, so I don't think scum could use Priority Number knowledge to target our PRs. I do however have a slight concern on how useful it might be if the Analyst gets turned off, or even maybe if he starts the game off, that knowledge is not divulged to us. However I think on reflection the risk/benefit is still in our favour.

Aubrey, your concern with Rat's strategy is giving scum targets based on priority numbers, how would your alternative of those with a high priority still having to say so have alleviated that? It still gives the scum a group to target of players guaranteed to have high numbers. As Keychain says it severely dilutes the usefulness of the Analyst while still giving the scum a good amount of knowledge, it tips the scales heavily in their favour.

[Mjollnir]

And lets stop with the setup spec, and play the game of mafia.

Would you not agree that speculating about the setup is part of the game, and that furthermore people's stances and their justification for them on issues such as revealing information may contribute towards scumhunting?

If this is the case then why would you want to stifle such discussion?

[Mjollnir]

Aubrey, I believe I asked you a question, Post 77

[Mjollnir]

I don't think the claim idea is a good one, too risky and too advantageous for scum, our Power Roles are valuable for us working information out later in the game.

Also I feel there is a flaw in Fitz's logic:

Town is at a disadvantage in that they have an 8% chance (1 in 12) of voting scum D1.
Town PRs are at a disadvantage in that they have a 9% chance (1 in 11) of targeting scum at night if D1 ends in a mislynch...which only improves to 10% chance of targeting scum with a D1 scum lynch.

These odds are assuming random targets, if we scumhunt effectively these can be reduced a fair bit and not appear so bad. I appreciate that the same principle applies to the odds post-mass claim, however the basis of the idea is that our odds of hitting scum today are crap, when I would contend that.

[Mjollnir]

And I would argue that I'm nit stifling discussion. I'm trying to get y'all to actually look at player interactions and what people are saying.

If somebody comes in with a poorly thought out idea that you feel would help scum, would you peg them as being more likely scum for it?

[Mjollnir]

And I would argue that I'm nit stifling discussion. I'm trying to get y'all to actually look at player interactions and what people are saying.

If somebody comes in with a poorly thought out idea that you feel would help scum, would you peg them as being more likely scum for it?

Maybe? That seems like sloppy scum play. And I would interact first before making up my mind.

In other words it can help scum to expose themselves, I completely agree with this. And finding out who supported certain ideas can help us out later in the game as players start to flip and hopefully some of the scumteam is revealed, especially now that we know scum are daytalking and likely organising themselves to make sure they don't look too associative.

It's a moot point now given the setup discussion seems to have definitively passed, however I'm not 100% sure I like your posts here.

[Mjollnir]

Spoiler: @Rat and Keychain Posts 167 & 169

Because I failed to know scum have day talk? That should be considered Nai. If you townread that, then you're falling for one of the easiest tricks in the books.

No. Because you supported a plan that benefitted Scum, and freaked out when I said how Scum could easily screw us over if we did that.

The way you phrased it especially made it sound like you already knew it could happen but didn't want anyone else to know.

And then you decide it's a good idea to stop engaging in discussion and just lurk after two posts???? Sorry, but no.

You're a Scummy McScumface

Thanks moz. I know that meaning, I thought it was a slightly different use here.

I repeat @Key, I was viewing that thinking scum did not have day talk. With that view, it's kinda stupid to bring that up. Knowing now that they have day talk and can collaborate, not so stupid. There's a big difference between the two.

Your reaction makes no sense, with or without daytalk.
"Hey guys let's massclaim"
"But look scum could do this thing and screw us over"
"WHY WOULD YOU SAY THAT"

When we're talking about implementing a strategy, we

need

people to point out the problems, because we still have the option of not doing it. That's why we're talking about it instead of doing it immediately.


PEdit: 167 is on point.

I'm going to preface by admitting that I was also unaware that scum had daytalk until it was brought up here, and when I was reading through the thread I had the exact same initial reaction as Aubrey to Realeo's post explaining the flaws of PR claiming, I'm reading that reaction of his as genuine looking at his posts, which if I am right would also mean he was genuinely unaware scum had daytalk, possible to fake admittedly but I townread Aubrey right now.

@Rat: If you're going to go after Aubrey for supporting a plan that benefitted scum, then why not go after the architect of the plan, Fitz?

@Key: I may be missing something, but I really don't see how that reaction makes sense if scum didn't have daytalk, it's highly unlikely each member of the team would have independently came up with the same mathematical conclusion that Realeo did.

[Mjollnir]

Oh you meant the "High/Mid/Low" plan; I thought you meant the mass-PRclaim. I agree that wasn't a great idea for those exact reasons, it was somewhat scummier than Fitz's idea.

That second question you answered was for Keychain, why are you answering that for him?

[Mjollnir]

Raya, Allo, Fish, Fitz and Realeo:

Do you have any current scum/townreads?

Nosferatu:

Same as above, and also why was Mozamis' vote on Keychain a bad one?

Mozamis:

You have a lot of townreads you haven't really explained, would you mind giving some indication why you townread those players. Also do you have any scumreads on active players? If so why?

[Mjollnir]

Oh you meant the "High/Mid/Low" plan; I thought you meant the mass-PRclaim. I agree that wasn't a great idea for those exact reasons, it was somewhat scummier than Fitz's idea.

That second question you answered was for Keychain, why are you answering that for him?

I meant both claims.

And I didn't mean to answer FOR Keychain, but just. In addition to, I guess. I had an answer so I chimed in, I apologize if that messed up some specific plan of yours.

Not a plan as such, but I do ask my questions to try and find out people's motivations for doing things, and giving them a potential answer to fall back on muddies the process significantly.

You've played with me before, you should know that

If you mean both claims then my original question about Fitz stands.

[Mjollnir]

Like I said, it's a bad plan, but it's Town's bad plan.

Why town's bad plan necessarily? I didn't see you giving any specific reason to townread Fitz prior to this post.

[Mjollnir]

Reasons please.

already gave them page 1 (?) when i formed my townbloc when people started discussing "the plan".

so what r your reads IAI?

OK, those are initial reads, do you have any advance on those feelings based on what has happened since? I wouldn't say responding quickly to posts in RVS/the very early stages of a game is a solid premise to townlock players on.

[Mjollnir]

Furthermore having a brief look through your ISO it seems like you've not addressed the second part of my question in regards to scumreads on more active players. It's a little concerning to me that of all the players on your latest scumlist, at the time of posting all but one of them were at or near the bottom of the postcount list, it looks a little like you are simply going after easy targets and saying they are lurking instead of actually trying to build cases on people. The only exception to this is Innocent, who you haven't given any reason for moving from "Neutral" to "Potentially scummy", can you elaborate on this please?

Indeed, I haven't seen you post any reason why specific players are on your scumlist except for a brief piece on me. The only reasoning I've seen you give is a generalised stance that "scum usually try and blend in". Well, how does that fit with your idea that being active and answering questions quickly in the opening of a game is a reason to lock someone as town? To me doing this is the definition of blending in.

[Mjollnir]

Allomancer:

Are you caught up yet? I assume you are because you referenced a very recent post. If so can you answer my previous question directed at you to give me some town/scumreads.

Nosferatu:

Seeing as we have mostly stopped talking about setup spec, would you be willing to give thoughts on the 3 most recent pages at least? Also what is the benefit of leaving it to Page 20 or so before reading through a game?

Aubrey:

When you say Nosferatu "can get roped" are you advocating her to be lynched at this point?

[Mjollnir]

Like I said, it's a bad plan, but it's Town's bad plan.

Why town's bad plan necessarily? I didn't see you giving any specific reason to townread Fitz prior to this post.

It all comes down to motivation.

Role Massclaim gives scum a Lot of information to screw us with during the night. However, it does put a lot of pressure on scum during the day, and also allows Town to effectively use their toggles. I believe that's what fitz was going for.

Now PR/Not-PR massclaim has much of the same benefit to scum, and very little to Town. It's much easier for scum to lie about their role freely in this situation, and much harder for Town PRs to know who they should target, and for Town as a whole to know who needs toggled the most. It's a weaker plan with more wiggle room and exploitation potential that I don't believe Town would have proposed as an alternative to a hard massclaim.

Ya dig?

I see what you're getting at, however do you have reason to believe Fitz may be town beyond this, or have reason to believe Fitz was going for that outcome specifically as opposed to possibly scum wanting us to out Power Roles? It's just that calling it specifically a "town bad plan" seems quite strong for what I see your point of view of this being.

[Mjollnir]

There are many different kinds of votes Moz, from "I want you dead now" to "I want to put pressure on you but I don't want you lynched without further reasoning for it" and many inbetween, I am finding out what Aubrey's intentions are with his vote as his wording suggests something but I want to be sure before I say anything about it.

Are my Posts 271 & 272 also me making stuff up to post or is there another reason you're ignoring it?

[Mjollnir]

I see, in Post 240 you say that the least likely place scum would be is lurking out in the beginning of a game, how does your vote for Nos and the reasoning behind it fit in with this opinion?

[Mjollnir]

if you check my iso i gave an updated list yesterday i think. When i called out a scum team of formerfish, IAI and you ( i think, i havent checked it).

Not quite the same thing, that's calling out a specific team whereas the lists before you were saying "scum is possibly in here", have all of those in that pile barring us three now moved into the neutral zone? If not my point stands on all of us.

My point was precisely that those peole that were quickly absorbed into discussing Rats plan looked quite town to em. Of course i could be worng. Just throwing out gut early reads as i always do.

OK, I'm not a fan of this for two reasons:
1) It still ignores my previous question on updated reasons for reading them town, are they still townread by you based on this one bit of evidence early on? Has nothing they have done since been comment-worthy? Some of them have been noted by you, others have not.
2) That could well be, and probably is in fact, just a list of people who happened to be online at the time given how fast the start of the day was.

[Mjollnir]

it looks a little like you are simply going after easy targets and saying they are lurking instead of actually trying to build cases on people.

i'm always up for punishing the lurkers, especially ealr yon. Always a decent chanc eof hitting scum.
I moved IAI cos his questions to Chick sounded like BS.

OK, I get what you are saying here, scum sometimes do try and lurk their way through the beginning of a game. However it just seems suspect that all of your scumreads are either perenniel lurkers or players that haven't really posted much and you happen to townread all the big-hitters for mostly fairly incidental reasons.

If that was your reason for moving Innocent why didn't you say so at the time? You didn't even mention it at all when you started calling him scum.

[Mjollnir]

I have an attitude that many people may not agree with. If I have little reason to think you're likely town, but reason to think you maybe scum or an apathetic townie who is just going to be a pesky grey slot for me to sort throughout the game, I'm fine pushing and potentially seeing that slot exterminated until I obtain reason to think it's town. usually in the first day phase or so. I consider it a potential victory if it flips scum, and I see it as a minor loss with small benefits if town.

pre-edit: Least likely? No no no. Misunderstanding. "the last place" as in last in a series. Btw, those were not listed from most likely - least likely. I think scum could easily be in any of those spots. I need to sit down and actually re-cap. Hopefully tonight, or sometime by tomorrow afternoon.

I understand what you're saying, that's fair enough.

I do disagree entirely with targeting someone for the reasons you describe just for the record. I would go as far as to say it's anti-town to just go after someone for that reason alone as it goes against the idea of actively scumhunting and being apathetic is pretty NAI imo. Furthermore if they are town this allows scum an easy target to go after to score a mislynch.

[Mjollnir]

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about the Mozamis wagon just yet. He is giving reads as he says sure, the reasoning on people he has eliminated from his scumsearch is worryingly weak, it's not necessarily a sign of guilt however it is easy to eliminate yourself from the possibility of voting for scumbuddies based on this whole giving yourself plausible deniability, and furthermore I would expect town to be suspicious of everyone, which is the opposite of what he is doing by townreading people for such minor reasoning and refusing my requests to look at them further and give an update on the townreads to see if he still classes them as town. Another mildly worrying thing about him is how willingly he was to read me as "very likely scum" for again fairly minor reasons from my point of view which seems to conflict somewhat with how easily she gave other people a "townlock" pass.

On the other hand he has moved people down when they do something he feels is scummy, an example being Chickadee. Maybe this is just his method of scumhunting and maybe he is just naturally quite black and white with his reads, he hasn't done anything contradictory just yet that I have seen so it all seems internally consistent, overall I'm keeping an eye on Mozamis as I have a sketchy feeling about him but don't feel right now he is scum.

Mozamis:

If you had to vote for someone right now, who would it be, and very importantly why?

[Mjollnir]

Allomancer

you are just coasting by right now doing the bare minimum, you've put a lazy vote on an easy target, you haven't said you're not reading through and you're reacting to recent posts so I assume you are paying attention to the game yet you have given basically no insight into anything right now. This kind of active lurking is something I don't like one little bit (it's very different to Nosferatu as at least she is honest that she is actively apathetic right now).

I am considering voting for you, but I want to hear your top three scumreads and your top three scumreads first, and I want reasoning with each please.

[Mjollnir]

Changed my mind on withholding my vote, there's no real good reason for it not like you're anywhere close to being lynched anyway.
VOTE: Allomancer

Also in my earlier post I meant townreads and scumreads.

[Mjollnir]

Regarding the Moz wagon, I liked the fact he was grouping people vocally regardless of how strong or weak the reasons were for most the game so far. If he is scum, he is playing in a style that is basically tying one arm behind his back, and making it harder on himself as the game progresses. He's also playing against the grain some I feel, and I like that. Town need to filter and game solve, scum need to stay alive and keep movement available. That is the basic gist of it all.

Aubrey, if the reasoning Moz is giving for grouping people is weak this makes it easy to later reverse the stances as he sees fit, which allows him to be flexible while still saying he is giving reads (which I suppose on reflection is another reason finding people town for weak reasons may also be a scum move). Would you still agree that this disadvantages him as scum?

[Mjollnir]

I'm not sure, at some point or another you will be pressured to give reads if you're not forthcoming with them, why not get a leg up on this?

He is indeed the top wagon right now, and I am arguing the weak reasoning for his reads would make sense if he is scum.

[Mjollnir]

I'm keeping an eye on Mozamis as I have a sketchy feeling about him but don't feel right now he is scum.

Why are you arguing with me over this when you yourself don't think he is scum?

This is kind of a weird question..

I'm keeping an open mind on Mozamis, same as everybody. I'm not arguing as such as I'm asking questions, and in some ways thinking out loud about him too while I'm asking you.

Why shouldn't I be doing this? Or to put it another way, why is it odd for a town player to be expected to keep an open mind on the other players and to keep querying others about their thoughts on them? This does not fit what you have been doing so far this game.

[Mjollnir]

I never said I townread him Aubrey. He isn't suspicious enough to warrant a vote at the moment but he isn't exactly clean from my point of view.

Why do you keep saying I am arguing with you? I've already said I'm not, I'm asking you questions about your stance on Mozamis. I'm challenging what I perceive to be faulty logic in your support of him to try and decipher why you are doing this. Changing your opinion has nothing to do with it, and consideration on what the town is focusing on doesn't enter into it because this is as far as I am concerned simply a conversation between the two of us. As a rule I don't usually take town focus into consideration as it's not something I aim to influence barring a few obvious exceptions.

[Mjollnir]

I actually can't really argue with Fitz's worst case scenario numbers there, so when he presents it like that the argument does look quite appealing. My primary concern with it though is that even with 4v1 as the endgame that still leaves the town with only 2 mislynches before they lose to go between 5 players, and the risk of following a gamebreaking strategy is lack of natural scumhunting and therefore lack of opportunity for the scum to expose themselves which makes 4v1 not look quite as appealing as it first looks.

Realeo also brings up an excellent point about impending deadline,

Fitz

I thought you were catching up on the game, are you still doing this? We have seven days left so this should probably be done fairly expidiently given you are currently at Page 7 of nearly 19. If we are going to agree on a game breaking strategy we'd need to do it quickly otherwise we simply won't have time to complete the claim cycle and reasonably discuss which of four possible players to lynch. I won't completely rule out supporting the idea given 4v1 is only the worst case and PRs might and maybe will have the chance to help us out a little, so as game breaking strategies go it's certainly a decent one, however

(TL;DR) we'd need to agree quickly and even though it's a reasonable strategy, it might be best to just focus on traditional scumhunting today given we have a week to go till deadline

[Mjollnir]

If others speak out in favour of it, I'll be happy to go ahead and claim.

[Mjollnir]

The more I think about it, the more I feel Mozamis may be town. I feel looking at his posts that his claim that she is applying the principle he says he is looks truthful. I see what Aubrey is saying about tying a hand behind his back, I mean he does not have to give the comprehensive level and continual update of reads that he is giving. The original reasoning I gave for suspecting him was it looked odd he was scumreading and townreading the players he was and the reasoning behind it, but I suppose that was fairly circumstancial and the method he is applying adequetly explains the initial weak reasoning, as does the gradual eroding of that townlist he built up early on. I see no other reason to suspect him and he is contributing well. I am not willing to lynch him today barring any further develoments from him.

Allomancer I'm thinking about, on one hand he's stopped posting so he may well simply be unmotivated town. But there is a reasonable amount of evidence about him that I makes me not like him. I have already pointed at his vote on Nosferatu appearing to be an opportunistic vote on an easy target (for reasons also taken from Aubrey too). But his other posts are simply a graveyard of unoriginal thoughts (230, 234, 373) and very little else. His vote on Realeo was, on reflection, somewhat odd; the language was a little off for me on this post, it may sound like gut reasoning but he sounds like he is tripping over himself to explain his reasoning there, it seems over-explained.

Furthermore to the above, he is clearly borrowing thoughts and ideas from other players as demonstrated above, so therefore he must be somewhat keeping up with the game. And yet he is coming up with no original ideas, nor is he scumhunting either. That lack of curiosity is worrying to me. I like the odds right now on him being scum. However I want to read the last 10 or so pages of this game again to ensure I am not missing anything because at this point I feel I should have more than one good scumread and that is worrying me too. Unfortunately I am a little busy tonight so this will have to be tomorrow night.

[Mjollnir]

Alright I had this basically up to Page 10 then my understanding kinda dropped off a bit which is probably why my reads are kinda weak right now. I'll analyse from this point. I'm kinda ill so apologies if this shows at any point, it's gonna be somewhat of a stream of consciousness and asking questions as they come so they may be answered at a later point if I've missed something.

Page 10

Realeo:

I'm not sure how much I agree with Post 227 as when I first read it, where you suggest Chick should be glad a setup spec plan died the way it did because she doesn't like plans like that, I think this presents a false dichotomy. She may have felt there was potential merit in the plan and wanted to see where it was going to go.

Aubrey:

Why did Allomancer deserve a vote in Post 236?

Mozamis:

Out of curiosity, your three scumreads in Post 241, how would you have reacted if people overwhelmingly said they felt one or more of those players were town?

Radical Rat:

You mentioned you felt Fish and Inno are both town in Post 245 after a justified townread on me, why do you read the other two as town?

Nosferatu and Allomancer:

Posts 246 & 248 are pretty concerning really, why are you complaining about us setup speccing at this point rather than actually going ahead and trying to scumhunt? Where is your curiosity and your want to actually scumhunt? Allomancer in your post you mention that you "find it hard to scumhunt when setup speccing" which is conveniently ignoring the fact that we've had 10 pages of content! A lot of it is setup spec sure but there had been a reasonable body of actual mafia play to that point, did you have nothing to say on that content barring the vote against Realeo earlier in that page you were forced to retract? It's concerning for both of you.

[Mjollnir]

Page 11

Aubrey:

You voted Nos for using setup speccing as an excuse for not contributing, Allomancer did the same thing a couple of posts after (Post 248), what are your thoughts on that?

Nosferatu:

Post 255 is extremely odd, it seems to put a target on her back and screams "too scummy to actually be scum", though this obviously is WIFOM logic. I'll have to wait and see what she has to say about my question in her previous post before I judge this statement, but it could be very telling.
Post 261 I don't like either, the logic doesn't make any sense as Aubrey at no point was crazy about setup speccing, he's been scumhunting as much as anybody in this game, I cannot tell if this is deliberatly disingenuous or not, it's bizarre given he said literally the post before that he is not setup speccing and you totally ignored that. And then a couple of posts later you say Mozamis is scum despite the fact you say it's all been setup speccing and there is nothing worth reading in the game, but you feel you're able to make a snap judgement on Mozamis being scum all the same, this seems very flippant and you're putting yourself forward as an easy target. But THEN you go and actually find you can make a good case against him in Post 266, well that gets very peculiar indeed. Is it just dumb luck you called a player scum on a whim and then found you could actually make a reasonable case against him having not been reading the game at all and bragging about it? It's possible sure, you may have simply been cherry-picking all the worst parts of Mozamis' posts and making an ad hoc case on her being scum, is there a reason for you to do this as town? Possibly, it could be done for you to simply appear to be contributing seeing as you were painting a target on your back by refusing to contribute, though it could also be scum wanting to appear "too scummy to be scum". If the latter is true, then Post 268 where you call Mozamis' townread on Rat bullshit is very interesting, as that townread was based on Rat being willing to stick his neck out and be noticed.

[Mjollnir]

This was half a game ago. Why is it still being talked about? I didn't see any merit in the plan. When this is talked about, 227 keeps being brought up, which completely overlooks 226, where I say Realeo shouldn't have outright told scum their best move. I'm really glad the plan didn't go through. Doesn't change the fact that scum had an idea handed to them.

As I said, it's somewhat of a stream of consciousness, me reading things and telling you my thoughts on them. Why are you bothered by what I'm saying though? I'm clearly agreeing with you.

I explained immediately after voting.

You did, my apologies.

[Mjollnir]

If Allo doesn't claim in (expired on 2017-09-04 02:35:19) I will hammer. Or someone else can. But a day and a half should be plenty of time to make an appearance.

If he claims VT, we lynch.

I'd rather hear his reads first...though it is concerning he's had multiple chances to bring those forward and he has not.

[Mjollnir]

I am now officially "pretty fucking ill", having flu sucks ass. I've tried to keep reading through as much as I can but it's just not clicking for me, apologies guys.

Also I am not the BP.

Nosferatu, I asked a question to Allomancer I was meant to ask you and it somehow slipped my mind. There had been a fair amount of non-setup speccing content in the game by Page 10, why did you want to avoid reading that? Clearly you must have known it was there, you had to read the game pages after all to know that we had been setup speccing a fair amount.

[Mjollnir]

I'll respond to your other points when I get an answer to that question.

[Mjollnir]

Right, assuming nothing new happens today or a lynch I believe in urgently needs pushing over the line to avoid a No Lynch, Nosferatu will have my vote till deadline. Here's why:

For most of this game, following on from her bleating that she is refusing to read the thread because of all the scumhunting we had allegedly not been doing, she has been tunnelling on Mozamis. This tunnel started on what appeared to be a snap judgement on Mozamis in post 263, which was backed up first of all poorly in the post right after, where she accuses Mozamis of asking her loaded questions which weren't loaded at all as far as I can see (from what I can tell asking why you'd sign up to play a game you refuse to read and for your current scumreads are perfectly reasonable questions), and then she actually puts forth a fairly viable case when challenged to do so, which appeared to be ad hoc (cobbled together after the fact in order to support an accusation you had already put forward seeing as you asked Nosferatu).

Saying that you are actively not reading the game is a very bold thing to say, it potentially paints a big target on your back but also just seems "too scummy to be scum" for most people it would seem, the logic being scum would not be willing to stick their neck out, especially on Day 1, you claim that you are disintersted in the game but you keep finding reasons to tunnel Mozamis when she looked like a viable lynch candidate, that's sure interesting. But what's

extremely

interesting is that once Allomancer became a big wagon, well you immediately stopped digging that tunnel! You suddenly claimed that you were fine with lynching one of the two and put him at L-1. The reasons mentioned for not liking Allomancer before this was apparently him not putting thought and effort into his posts. Well I'm sorry but can somebody please let the kettle know the pot is calling him black. You straight up admitted that you're not trying.

To reference your answers in Post 592, that we were apparently creating pages you can't be arsed to read, well at this point that is surely bollocks. We haven't setup specced for a while now and yet all you've STILL done is tunnel on Mozamis and a bit on Allomancer when he looked viable. Someone who is actually interested in finding scum would at least be openly trying to read the game by now and be putting the effort in.

Either you are scum putting on an act to appear disinterested in the game and look like too much of an easy target or you are telling the truth about being disinterested in the game and have an actual excuse to be putting in zero effort to scumhunt. The fact you are contantly finding reasons to scumhunt Mozamis, and then reacted to the Allomancer wagon and put him at L-1, that does not look like someone disintrested in the game.

Furthermore to that is this:

And then a couple of posts later you say Mozamis is scum despite the fact you say it's all been setup speccing and there is nothing worth reading in the game

except the bit where I say very explicitly what I'm voting moz for isn't setup spec cause uhh
its on the same page
where I complain about PREVIOUS pages
that contain spec
which kind of implies that its
idk
stopped now.

Well this heavily implies that your initial vote for Mozamis was not on a whim, and you had that evidence already there before you placed that vote down. This therefore would mean that you had in fact been reading through the pages you claimed you hadn't been reading because of all the setup spec! And the previous pages you referenced in that post were right at the beginning, Pages 1-3, where we were heavily setup speccing. If you were reading through those pages for evidence then clearly the setup speccing was not the big problem you were claiming it was. I simply do not buy your act. VOTE: Nosferatu

[Mjollnir]

As for other potential lynches, I am not willing to support a Mozamis lynch today unless something changes. The way he has explained the progression of his reads seems honest to me, I feel he is genuinely trying to scumhunt, the wagon seems too easy and too quick to assemble. Fitz I am ambivilent on, need to read him closer but I don't recall him having done much, potentially could support a lynch on him. Raya I have seen peddled around a little, she's a lurker and can be replaced rather than lynched, if she were actively doing nothing then it would be a different story.

[Mjollnir]

No Nosferatu, the two loaded questions you were referring to came from that page, not the beginning of the ISO which is where you would have gotten the rest of that evidence for your post backing up your vote on Mozamis. You claimed you hadn't read anything of her content barring those two questions and thus according to that you cannot have started reading the ISO. And yet now you are saying that you read the posts you used to back up your vote before you placed the vote?

If you cannot keep your story straight here, then how do you expect me to believe that you were being truthful before?

[Mjollnir]

But what's extremely interesting is that once Allomancer became a big wagon, well you immediately stopped digging that tunnel! You suddenly claimed that you were fine with lynching one of the two and put him at L-1.

???
Why does it matter which one dies first?

Point is you wagon hopped when it was convenient for you to do so, your reasons for disliking Allo before were hypocritical.

I mean, you could have fooled me that you're not disinterested. All you've done is tunnel Moz (which is what I mean by keep finding reasons to scumhunt him) and do a little bit of light digging on Allomancer.

[Mjollnir]

How were those questions even loaded anyway? You even answered one of them.

The timing on you finding Allo scummy was convenient to say the least, and if you aren't reading people for effort then:

This is actually one of the most braindead posts I've read in awhile. I don't mean that intelligence-wise, I mean that this is actually the least thought I've seen put into a post.

Why is this included?

And yeah, it did come across as being impolite I will admit but I chose to ignore it because it's not the point of the game. Aubrey is right though, if you are wondering why people are perceiving you as lacking civility, phrasing like that may have something to do with it.

[Mjollnir]

I think we're going off topic with the age thing guys.

Nosferatu, I appreciate that you didn't mean it to be insulting on purpose, I said what I did only because you were questioning before why others in this game felt you weren't being civil and felt it'd be helpful if I pointed this out as a possible example. I feel it's best that this issue is dropped here though, we can't risk getting side-tracked this close to deadline.

[Mjollnir]

So as to not completely dodge the question, I'll ask you, what does moz gain from asking me those questions?

Without wishing to deflect, I find it curious how you feel the need to get me to explain what I feel his motivation was for asking these questions, but you'd rather go off on a long hypobolic spiel about how awful the questions were than maybe ask the source itself why he is asking those questions and what possible town motivation he may have for this.

I am willing to put forth my answers but I feel I should check whether you want to present this to Mozamis first.

[Mjollnir]

*hyperbolic, it's too late here..

[Mjollnir]

It may be my bias with how I like to scumhunt, but I would have thought maybe you would have called him out directly to explain why he's asking those questions if you feel they are loaded rather than try and get a third part reaction to it, but I suppose I see what you are saying.

Anyway, as I have said you openly saying that you are disinterested in what is happening in the game instantly raises questions, it instantly makes you appear anti-town and means you will most likely be a talking point for the next couple of pages at least. Given how unusual the move is it seems only natural to ask why you signed up when you show an active disinterest in the game to try and work out what the reasoning behind you being unwilling to try and at least look through the setup spec for stuff you can scumhunt with, it doesn't take a lot of effort to just ignore certain posts after all.

The question about your reads is more obvious and I have no idea how this could be construed as a loaded question, it's a standard question from what I can see, asking if you've happened to see anything at least. If a player hasn't contributed at all I like to ask them what their reads are so if they are scum they can't simply fencesit, they have to show some level of commitment and have to choose how to read their buddies and why.

[Mjollnir]

Sigged

In all seriousness though, Mozamis shouldn't be getting lynched here, I've seen plenty of town death throes and I'm 95% sure he's town.

In fact now that I think about it, so far not a single scum has been lynched so far in any game while I've still been alive

[Mjollnir]

I've not been in many games so far so it's not like I'm some statistical anomaly, three games so far and I was scum in one of those. The other two I was taken out Night Two, so it's just been 0-4 and for one of those Day One only lasted one and a half pages, so I was literally asleep all day

If it keeps happening then maybe I should go to a Witch Doctor and seek a cure though

[Mjollnir]

Yeah Fitz you're gonna need to explain that vote because
a) Your reasons for finding her suspect in your previous catch-up were fairly weak so I'm gonna assume you found something new while catching up this time.
b) That vote has almost no relevance to the current state of affairs at this stage of the day as there is next to no chance 6 other votes will be found in 32 hours. It's pretty much Mozamis or Nosferatu at this point barring something extraordinary and I feel you ought to let us know which of those camps you want to pitch your tent in.
c) You seemed to have been under consideration from the town in general and I am very much ambivalent towards you, I certainly feel you haven't contributed much notable in terms of scumhunting anyway, so I want to see the thought process here.

[Mjollnir]

Seems you lot missed the page end hammer of Mozamis, can we try that again but this time on Nosferatu?

[Mjollnir]

Nos is town here. Not lynching him.

Wait, are you a guy or a girl Nos? If you're a guy my apologies I've been misgendering you all game xD

[Mjollnir]

Moz is basically a dead man walking. Fitz's naked vote is fine for now, and can be explained tomorrow. I'm actually just happy to see a vote from him. This whole, "

Let's wait to page bottom

" is silly.

I would much rather an explained vote, though I suppose it can be explained tomorrow if he runs out of time

[Mjollnir]

i) It's a common theme for new to do precisely that, if I feel the reasoning for their votes has been lacking, see Mozamis, Nosferatu, Allomancer and others in this game.

a) Well I appreciate that you're very unlikely to have a scum basically serve themselves on a plate, more often than not they play too carefully to do that, which is one of the principal reasons I ask people why they are voting the way they are as it forces them out of where they might want to be comfortable. It's even useful to do with town players too though, as the best way for someone to critically evaluate an idea they have had is to make them expand on it logically by writing about it.

To this end, I feel we both know that the final sentence of yours in that segment can be elaborated upon, exactly what springs out at you in terms of where her suspicions and votes have gone? Also what makes you think her helpfulness is contrived?

b) Well you put Mozamis in your suspects pile before (in Post 452 and you haven't mentioned him in your ISO since. What makes you reluctant to hammer?
c) Well you're right, you can't make everyone happy, just ask Mozamis. Generally scumhunting seems to be the way to make people happy though it seems to have not been enough for him.

[Mjollnir]

Ok, well as I predicted Mozamis was town and the wagon was pretty damn scummy. I'll be making a start on this by examining the reasons everyone had for placing their votes on him and making a judgement based on that. I am unfortunately quite time poor right now so that'll have to come in due course, but it'll come.

For now, some observations and questions that come up from the top of my head looking at the past few pages:

[*] Aubrey is correct that Chick was a fairly intriguing kill, she was far from above suspicion, it begs the question why that happened. It's possible they thought she might have been a power role I guess, that's quite a simple explanation, but I don't recall seeing anything obvious that may have suggested it, and also it's worth remembering the majority of the town are power roles, so killing her on the hunch she may have been a power role probably offers less utility to the scum than in standard games, therefore there's probably a more specific reason she is dead. When I have the time I will also investigate on that line too.

[*]

Flubber:

What makes you so sure Chick had garbage reads?

[*]

Nosferatu:

Why Realeo and Inno?

[*]

Lil Uzi:

Firstly, welcome. You have a pretty comprehensive case on Aubrey clearly, so it follows that you have similarly good cases on Keychain and Flubber. Why are you not forthcoming with them? I mean, we're not likely to be swayed to maybe agree with you on them if you don't state why you find them scummy. Can you also say why you find them scummy, and why you find Inno, Realeo and Nosferatu town, particularly with Nos, is it just her lurking you find town or is it more than that?

[*]

Realeo:

How do you currently feel about Lil Uzi?

Also I flicked someone off last night too, if we're revealing this info.

[Mjollnir]

[*]Realeo: How do you currently feel about Lil Uzi?

That is not a question that I am expecting.

He is being rational currently.

Would that be enough to overcome your willingness to put Raya in your lynch pool yesterday? Was that because he was lurking or because you read him as scummy?

Also now that you bring it up again, why did you ask whether anyone would question you? Only four people posted between those two comments so it's not like you gave the thread a fair shot at actually doing so, and in addition Aubrey did seem to do an impression of his avatar and raise one of his vulpine eyebrows at it.

[Mjollnir]

[*]Realeo: How do you currently feel about Lil Uzi?

That is not a question that I am expecting.

He is being rational currently.

The question I have can be for both you and Mjoll, why did you choose to flick someone off rather than on last night?

That's a pretty good question really, I'll admit that it's not actually something I gave much thought to as I was doing it. I suppose it's because I more readily suspect people than I do read them as town, if I had to give out townreads they'd go to Aubrey, yourself (both of you appear to be genuinely scumhunting and asking good and useful questions, you appear to have the mindset I would expect a town player to have) and Radical Rat (I've seen scum!Rat and this feels nothing like it, so this is kinda more gut than the other two but still valid). But those reads are still fairly uncertain and my scumreads are just stronger I suppose.

[Mjollnir]

I'm sorry, but how is Allo still under consideration? As far as I'm concerned he is pretty much confirmed town due to his uncountered claim.

[Mjollnir]

Reasons for voting Moz:

Spoiler: Radical Rat

He said his reads felt unnatural and politician like. This was quite early on and his vote never wavered since. Also claimed that he was suspicious of Moz for a while before voting for him. Rat, can you say when you first started suspecting him?. Saying that, he did have some justified points about him that came after the initial vote that did back it up. I will also say that I have seen scum!Rat before, and this doesn't feel like it...

However I did notice something curious about his posts, he claimed intent to hammer Allo without having said anything him beforehand, why did you want to hammer him, and why did you mention nothing about him before? I also did not notice you clarify what exactly about Mozamis' reads you found shifty, can you?

Spoiler: I Am Innocent

He had an early vote on Chick (our other town-flip), I am not too sure about the rolefishing he claims in post 97 as justification for it, he did however raise some good points to back it up that I would agree with.

He linked this to Mozamis in 207, and gave decent reasons again later. He did though interestingly agree with Aubrey that scum would most likely be lurking and not really contributing in 347, how would you fit that with a Mozamis lynch?

In 534, he accused Moz of faking the scumhunting, specifically giving reads and not giving reasons and giving examples of his read on him. I do not like this post at all, i feel he is mis-repping Moz on both counts here. He says Moz's reasons for finding him scummy are solely your questions to Chickadee and saying you're good as scum (which is an appeal to fear), except if we look at posts 437 & 474 we find that yes he did cite your skill at being scum as a reason but in conjunction with a perceived lack of contribution. It wasn't simply an appeal to fear, he had actual reasons that were simply embellished by past experiences with you, which seems fair enough to me. There were also several posts of his where he gave reasons for changing reads, he wasn't just doing them willy-nilly as you suggest. Furthermore why would scumreading Chick be an inhibitor for also scumreading you based on the questions you had for her? Nevertheless, I feel I should ask what is it about Mozamis' method of scumhunting that you felt lacked genuineness?

In 536 Mozamis gave Chick a neutral read, the reasons for which you said was also an appeal to fear. Why on Earth would giving someone a neutral read possibly even require an appeal to fear? If you read the post it was hardly accusatory, what you are saying here makes little sense.

I do have to give you townpoints for the manner in which you joined the wagon however. Not only did you move off Allo's wagon early on, but you did ask Mozamis good questions for his involvement in it which look very town to me, and tried to start an alternative wagon against the now basically confirmed town when he was looking like a sure lynch at the time.

Spoiler: Flubbernugget (FormerlyFish)

Fish's 213 reads kinda odd to me, Moz absolutely was not saying Rat was too scummy to be scum and his only argument for liking Rat was not simply that he wasn't blending in, this feels like a very weird twisting of his words that does not look motivated by anything good, but I can't put my finger exactly on why. It could be way worse though, as this was before anybody really suspected Moz. Saying that he also used the same point with Inno about Rat.

Enter Flubber, and he's aggressive, and immediately says he doesn't like Chickade's chances of being town, but also attacks Mozamis. In 509 He agrees that Chick was making a bad push on Mozamis, however still feels he was being opaque, well, Chick's entire case was that Moz was making illogical progression in his reads, so if you disagree with this idea, how was Mozamis being opaque? You joined the growing Moz wagon based solely on this reasoning, so I hope your answer here is good.

624 & 625 are absolute rubbish. Your mention of the Allo wagon was an extremely reductionist viewpoint of the case against him, so much so that it's impossible to say you've offered any real opinion on it because if that's your takeaway of the wagon, then I don't think you've looked at it properly. And yes you're voting Moz, he pointed this out! He asked why you voted for him, this is hardly reaching! It's laughable that you'd call it that.

Huh, you pretty much confirmed your viewpoint later that Allo's wagon was just due to lack of activity. Hmm, you first said this in your first post. How much of the game, particularly the posts about his wagon, had you read at that point?

Spoiler: Nosferatu

Spent basically the entirity of yesterday tunnelling on Mozamis. And so little of what she said about Moz was backed up with evidence in any way, I mean, Jesus Christ.

Nos's set of posts against Mozamis, in particular ones like 266 and 427 kinda reminds me of a political attack campaign against somebody, it's full of barbs and extremely focused on trying to make that person look bad, but without actual solid evidence to back it up, it's just picking out bits and trying to frame them in the worst possible light. I mean, did you really feel that FOSing someone instead of voting someone is actually a scumtell? Come on now.

Also the switches between the Moz and Allo wagons just stink. I know I mentioned them before but just look at this filth. You made a few posts poking at Allomancer beforehis wagon, fair enough. But then you went back to tunnelling on Mozamis until 468, when you seemed to suddenly remember Allomancer exists and you might want to lynch him. It's funny how that coincided with his wagon just starting to gain traction. Seriously, go back and look at the timing of this people, it's just so perfect it's kinda hard to believe it was just random timing.

What strikes me as odd is the post you made on Allo was actually a far superior case than the one you made on Moz, in that it had actual reasoning behind it and wasn't an attack ad campaign so fucking shameless Donald Trump would turn a slightly darker shade of orange. Why, given this fact, were you more set on lynching Moz for most of the day than you were on lynching Allo?

Annoyingly though, I do have to temper my read on Nosferatu somewhat against the fact both our flipped towns solidly townread her, both partly for meta reasons if I recall correctly. They do have a distinct advantage on reading her over me here in that they have both played with her before, and I have not. Honestly it's making me more cautious than I would like to be in regards to Nos...my gut is telling me she is scum and I need to be voting her now, and this gut feeling is backed up somewhat by the fact she was the rival wagon at the end of Day 1, and the player she helped orchestrate a lynch on flipped town and yet there isn't a wagon on her now; however my brain is telling me to doubt this read I have on her because those two have way more experience reading this player than I do, and they both disagree strongly with my gut. It could well be that the wagon timing was a coincidence after all, and it could well be that her scumhunting method is relentless, illogical attack, that sure wouldn't be unique to her. I'm conflicted to say the least. I'll withold voting her just yet unless something more convincing comes along I think.

Spoiler: Realeo

In hindsight 181 reads weird to me, it's like he's looking for confirmation that people are going to agree with his viewpoints that Chick looks scummy before he goes and attacks her. Why did you feel the need to just mention you didn't know how to feel about her without actually saying why?

I have already made my feelings about 227 clear. In 252 he gives Moz a gut townread and in 316 questions Chick on why Moz's "odd progression" was scummy, so he was defending him initially.

In 457 he was third on the Allomancer wagon, which was curious given he gave no reason for doing so in the post and he had not mentioned him accusatorily in any previous post. Then in the next post he asked himself if Allo or Moz should be his preferred lynch for the day, which makes two candidates out the left field for you, you barely mentioned Mozamis before and when you did it was mostly positive. In 461 you expressed that there was likely only one scum in Moz, Chick, Nos and myself, how do you feel about this now?

463 is a real "Huh?" post for me, you cite weird progression as the main reason for not townreading Moz, despite you earlier defending him from this. It's also odd that a little later you mostly agree with Chick's scumread list mostly matches yours, this is despite earlier having her as your prime suspect and barely mentioning her since then, why did you start to townread Chick? Your explaination to Flubber about her being an explosive player isn't quite enough for me. It reads quite odd that you borrowed her list and your top two "not-townreads" happen to be pretty much the most suspected players in the game at that time.

After that, from 603, it's two more weird progressions from you. You first vote Fitz, again with no real mention of him at all up to that point and a blank vote post. But soon after you skip that and make yourself the L-1 for Moz, and when challenged you simply say "I explained why I wanted to lynch you 200 posts ago", well I've already demonstrated those reasons you gave were contradictory to what you said previously, so did you have any others? And why do/did you suspect Fitz?

Spoiler: Keychain

The vote on Mozamis in 122 makes sense, it's backed up with good reasoning, however 343 is a little odd, why is pointing out inconsistencies in reasoning a bad sign?

407 seems slightly disingenuous however I see why you might feel the way you do about that post. To play devil's advocate, what would be the advantages of keeping a borderline troll player about?

Are there any reasons a town player might get frustrated that they look certain to be lynched? If yes then I don't see the point of 715. Also I forgot about not having a sig as a quote from the current game, I'll remove that now.

I think overall I get why you were suspicious of Moz, however can you summarise for me please?

I wanted to include Fitz in here as I felt his reasons for avoiding hammering Moz looked kinda fishy, I would expect town to just not show that level of reluctance towards hammering someone they suspected as much as he did of being scum, and the reason he gave in that he wanted to show he suspected Chick too as just being weak, he'd already done that by ranking her alongside Mozamis in his heirachy of scumreads, or he could have simply said "I want to hammer Moz, I would rather this be Chick but we can do that Day 2" or something along those lines. If I didn't know any better I'd say he was scum trying to avoid looking suspect by hammering town. However I think I have analysed what he's already said about the Moz wagon and questioned it as far as it'll go.

There's some good targets in that list, however I think for now I will VOTE: Realeo, there's good reasons in there to suspect him and my gut has been telling me there's something dodgy about him for a while now, it's nice to finally be able to put it all into words.

[Mjollnir]

Why, given this fact, were you more set on lynching Moz for most of the day than you were on lynching Allo?

I wasn't. My vote was always on whoever had the more votes between them.

Reasonable I guess, just the way you were doing it seemed odd hence me bringing it up. You know, the way you barely mentioned him following making the case against him until it was about convenient to get on his wagon.

Also @mjoll: why is my allo case better than the moz one? They seem equally bad to me.

You now think your own cases are bad or you always did?

Anyway, the Moz one was based on total rubbish, I mean I think I made that kinda clear in my part of the post about you. Allo's case had reasoning behind it, Moz was a mostly baseless attack campaign. The initial post was shaky at best and everything else after was just "HE'S DOING THIS BECAUSE HE'S SCUM LYNCH HIM!"

[Mjollnir]

In hindsight 181 reads weird to me, it's like he's looking for confirmation that people are going to agree with his viewpoints that Chick looks scummy before he goes and attacks her. Why did you feel the need to just mention you didn't know how to feel about her without actually saying why?

You are actually correct. I'm looking to attack her (but I think confront her is the right word?)

My issue is that I had one town game play with Chick and I don't remember Chick is very frontal with attacking person like in this game. I was in the between "Is Chick is an explosive lady or is Chick is Madam. Scum who like to Misrep."

I'm gauging for attention because I need some sanity testing. I don't remember reading any response, so I just proceed.

So I tried to attack her, she became passive aggressive, I attacked her again, then she ignored it. It kinda become obvious that she is just being a loud town.

I think I am being consistent with my stand here.

Yes what you've been doing has been kinda weird. Why do you want everyone to pay attention to you anyway?

Mafia is not linear like politic where I can't change my mind. Sorry, this won't fly.

Indeed you are allowed to change your mind, that's perfectly fine. However you cannot say you doubt someone is scummy for a reason and then use that reason to jump onto that bandwagon later! That doesn't fly at all. I mean you may well be able to do that if you adequetly explain it, but you did not, it came completely off the cuff. Especially from a player like you, you described yourself as meticulous, I would have expected you to want to explain yourself thoroughly if you were going to do this.

[Mjollnir]

I mean I don't think my cases were bad, mjoll does.

There's arguably one alignment indicative point here.

Because this makes sense..

this is in comparison to my moz case which for the record was:
- he had fake reads
- his progression was bad
- he avoiding putting down real votes
- the votes he did make were in bad faith
- he was deflecting
- he tried to misrep my scumread on him as a personal gripe several times
- he did the same to chicka
- he tried to make it seem like I always scumread him which is an unfair assessment
- he asked loaded questions (even if you think they weren't loaded I did)

You know what, I would go through this point by point with you, but this seems like a waste of my limited time. Moz is dead and Allo is pretty much confirmed town. What I will say however is that the only one of those with any real merit is bad progression. I don't even see where he was deflecting and your case did read quite a bit like you had a vendetta against him.

[Mjollnir]

Spoiler: Realeo Post 1007

However you cannot say you doubt someone is scummy for a reason and then use that reason to jump onto that bandwagon later! That doesn't fly at all. I mean you may well be able to do that if you adequetly explain it, but you did not, it came completely off the cuff. Especially from a player like you, you described yourself as meticulous, I would have expected you to want to explain yourself thoroughly if you were going to do this.

Ah. I see where is your confusion.

Let us bring the post back into the game.

<strike denotes grammar correction>

@Keychain

I kinda don't really have scumlean, so my lynch is more to who I

don't

townread the least.

<== This line

moz gave me a pause. I find Chick may raise a good concern about moz read progression, but others issue seem nice. It seems rational for mos to relegate me from 'town' to 'prob town'. His IaI read seems fine.

Allomancer is a little bit special. I literally null him, but the reason why he get my love is

1. I can still can make stretched reason for why <INSERT NAME HERE> is town. I can't really stretch a reason why Allo is town.
2. There are more than 1 person that I can't stretch a reason, but I can give everyone but allo the benefit of activity doubt.

My heart like want to vote moz, but it's not like moz need pressure to talk.

If you see closely, I was flustered D1 that I pretty much don't have a legitimate suspect at that point, it's more to who I townlean the least.

I catched some town vibes like I said in the past, but I listed why his vote at Chichkadee bite those town vibes to the point of two least towny.

Sorry mate but this isn't what I was getting at.

Compare the two posts below:

Ya Rlly.

Why a weird progression is a scummy thing?

moz gave me a pause. I find Chick may raise a good concern about moz read progression, but others issue seem nice.
..........
My heart like want to vote moz, but it's not like moz need pressure to talk.

At no point did you say anything such as "OK I see your point Chick", which would be fine if you were a Nosferatu like player, but you are fairly similiar to me, you explain every read you have. It makes your motivations fairly easy to track.

Now, given all you say on the subject between that latter post and voting for Mozamis in a blank post was saying you would consider Mozamis, and your only mention of Moz between defending his progression and the latter post was asking him about his Inno read, I am inclined to believe the progression was used as some justification for your vote for him unless you are willing to provide another one here.

[Mjollnir]

Sorry I've fallen too far behind and have not got the time to catch up. I can't give this game as much attention as I need to play to a level I find satisfatory, I'll have to ask to replace out.

I apologise sincerely to the mod and everyone else here.