Mini Theme 2194 : Draft Mafia | Endgame

[mastina]

Mod: V/LA every Friday-Saturday for the rest of the month, including tomorrow.

Fortunately, I have a few hours before I'll be going to bed tonight, so I can still do this.

VOTE: Pooky

Town.

VOTE: We brought pizza

Hi (sorry for scumminess)

Town?

VOTE: pizza

Scum?

VOTE: Lunar Martian

Scum. </3

VOTE: BBMolla

[mastina]

RQS is anti-town, no one else answers

Town.

Guess what? It's time for RQS!

Scum?

that's rich from your stupid ass

And it should really say something when, of all people, it's

Not_Mafia

laying down a truth bomb.

[mastina]

VOTE: pooky

Town.

It is my opinion that at no time should anyone ever claim their packs in this game, ever...like, ever ever. Scum determine the pass, and I'd rather get random junk in the pass than possibly pass something to scum they want.

Alternatively, if you have a power that you really don't want scum to get access to, use it immediately. (I have one which I'm going to burn N1 to prevent the scum from getting their hands on it.)

Also: town?

[mastina]

Vote: Pooky

I'll sheep this unless LLD tells me you're scum.

(GI, LLD, feel free to weigh in on this if this is a good or bad idea but I basically wanna leave the reading of you two to the other, essentially. That is to say: unless you two literally rolled the power couple dreamteam scumteam*, I feel like I can trust you two to accurately read each other. If one of you is scum, I'd expect the other to pick up on it, and if you're both town I feel like you'll be able to tell. Am I right or is this a bad idea?)

*(I'll be checking for warning signs of that, obv, but GI's intro immediately makes me by default assume that he's town here, sooooo, immediate assumption: not the dreamteam scumteam.)

VOTE: Pooky

[mastina]

Vote: BBMolla

Oh back here I guess.

VOTE: BBMolla.

(Tho I suppose both LLD and GreyIce will immediately take offense to me backing two of GI's scumreads. )

[mastina]

lol. i think not_mafia is town

Honestly the only reason N_M would be scum is because this is literally the towniest I've ever seen him be.

He even voted for a wagon with it not being a hammer.

We brought pizza - Hydra of Infinity 324 / Noraa / MURDERCAT
GreyICE*
Not_Mafia
Lunar Martian
LadyLambdadelta*

tris
Toogeloo
Shadowslug

Flea The Magician


Gamma Emerlad
PookytheMagicalBear
BBmolla

Strong town (may or may not be locktown, not sure yet), town, null, in no particular order or strength scum.

[mastina]

Is GreyICE a flavorleaf alt or something

No, Flavor Leaf is like a...third-rate secondhand copy of GreyIce that has suffered from corrupted files degrading the quality of the copy as to make it a vastly inferior version to the original.

Which is to say, anything of FL's style which is good, GI does better; the weaknesses of FL's style, GI lacks.

(Say what you will about FL; I'm not intending to insult FL here. You can think he's good or think he's shit or think he's okay. But GreyICE is better than FL ever could be, at both town and scum, in every feasible way. Comparing GI to FL is an insult to GI.)

[mastina]

why are you voting bbmolla for something you did yourself?

Because I'm voting him for a different reason altogether. Claiming you've got an antitown power you're gonna burn N1 is nai as far as I'm concerned; I just think that Molla's scum for different reasons and with me liking GreyICE's content and his pushes and him also having Molla as scum, seems like a damn good place to vote.

[mastina]

LLD hasn't even posted yet

So?

Doesn't stop me from getting a read.

(Albeit one with an asterisk.)

[mastina]

what are those reasons?

I could walk through this but it'd require me to go through the thread a second time to lay it out.

Basically, comes down to a large amount of gut as to what he's doing when he's doing it, between his entrance his pushes his stances and such. They just seem like scum.

[mastina]

I'll read this game tomorrow. Gotta sleep for work.

>Says she'll read the game tomorrow and needs to sleep for work.
>Proceeds to produce some really damn good content anyways.

Yeah I'm quite comfortable calling the power-couple town.

(LLD looks town, GreyICE looks town, LLD is saying GreyICE is town enough, so I'm quite good calling GreyICE town enough and unless he tells me otherwise on LLD, calling her town here, too.)

[mastina]

LLD sorts herself, she’ll hardcore lurk if scum

MOD: BADLY V/LA DUE to SNOWMAGEDDON 2021 INSTALLMENT.

This is where I'll be at when I can post.

Hopefully the weather clears up within two days.

[mastina]

(As a reminder, still v/LA due to snow. Quite badly so. Half the time it's taking me three attempts to load a page, not including then trying to send a message. Snow is not stopping; it keeps knocking power out, is bad enough to knock out cell phone towers and my internet has been down since Friday night, never once coming back. It's constantly down.)

[mastina]

THANK FUCKING GOD I'VE GOT THE INTERNET BACK NOW I CAN HAVE MY LIFE BACK AND BE ABLE TO PLAY MAFIA.

But, uhhhh...know that I've got a LOT to catch up on. I promise that this game will be caught up on, but understand that I DO have other online internet priorities; this game isn't at the top of it. I WILL get to it, fairly soon and quickly. It's just that three days of internet isn't just three days of mafiascum and I've got other duties on here, too. (It's going to take me hours upon hours to do.)

[mastina]

Oh hey I'm here now!

Back to work I go!

[mastina]

Holy smeg 13 pages? eugh ya'll are going to make me suffer more... any key points I should know about? V/LA end date isn't accurate, I just don't know when amma be back to me.

Flea I don't want you to be scum but why are you probably scum?

(I still say {Molla, Flea, Gamma} has a high chance of containing 1-3 scum, probably at least two. Pooky's possible but I'm ehhhhh less sure there.)

[mastina]

like you're just gonna sheep one if they say the other is maf?

No, but if they

don't

say the other is mafia I am comfortable calling both of them town.

If one of them calls the other scum, there is no guarantee which of them is scum if either.
But if neither of them calls the other scum, given I individually townread both GI and LLD and GI/LLD are husband/wife, if they don't have a scumread on the other, chances are both are town.

If my townread on one of them was wrong, I'd expect the other of them to be able to tell.

[mastina]

apparently you're now scum for claiming to do that

No but I get the distinct impression Flea is scum for content-based reasons instead. </3

[mastina]

But why does mastina, who doesn't have internet, come into the game thread when she does have internet, to tell us repeatedly she won't have internet? And does she not have a phone, or is she hitting her data limits?

I never once had internet in that timeframe. The internet went down Friday. I stayed up literally all night waiting for it to come back; it didn't, not even by 8 am. My family was awake and constantly checking from 8 am onwards on Saturday. It didn't come back. I continued to wait, all night long, until 7 am on Sunday. Again, not a blip. Not a single point, not for so much as a second, with internet. It was down the entire time. And then when I went to bed, my family kept on checking. Ditto for Monday, which was circa 6 am. Nothing, and then my family was checking from 6 am onwards, until it came back later that night.

I made all my posts on my phone. However,
-We were, repeatedly, losing cell phone service. Our theory is that a cell phone tower was down, making cell coverage spotty and unreliable at best. Given that it took me ~3-5 minutes to load every single page, and given the failure rate of posting, that's taxing on the phone, when...
-My phone is literally ~6 years old, and quarantine has absolutely destroyed it. It begins to critically overheat in as little as one hour, becoming ridiculously hot to the touch. Furthermore, it loses power even when plugged in to a charger. I have to turn it off when I am not using it because the phone can die in as little as 4 hours plugged, 2 hours unplugged.

Typical prod timers are 48 hours and I could not post content during that time. But I had zero desire to be replaced because I knew the

second

I could come back, I'd be able to play just fine.

Which I am now!

[mastina]

Just please
CONDENSE YOUR CATCHUP POSTING

Honestly?

There's not much to catch up on.

I'll say that willow definitely is a downgrade from GreyICE, but there's actually surprisingly little comment-worthy in the posts.

If you feel otherwise, you can direct me to a post I didn't respond to and ask me stuff about it.

[mastina]

Pretty sure I've generated enough content to be readable at this point, I don't believe anyone here can have me as truely null.

And I feel bad that the read is scum but I just don't get townvibes from your content here at all.

[mastina]

Nora didn't townspew yet, which is strange, but I'll give it some time.

Noraa hasn't townspewed and is less active than I'd prefer (her hydra which is half Infinity, .5% MURDERCAT, the rest her, is only barely in the lead for postcount rather than having triple the postcount of the next closest slot), but I actually feel that she's done anti-scumspewing in that she's done things that make me not think she's scum even tho it's not clearly townspew if that makes sense.

[mastina]

Also Pooky is scum but because of his charming nature, he's not gonna die day 1 and that's stupid.

Pretty much.

[mastina]

while I think Pooky is scum Noraa isn't handling this situation very well

Honestly?

Disagreed on both points.

I'm actually beginning to think Pooky might be town here--and I think Noraa's handling of this is the towniest possible handling of it for her.

[mastina]

Mastina, please, take a look at pizza/pooky.

I get where Pooky is coming from on Pizza, but while I get where he is coming from, I don't think his read is actually right because I DO get the vibe of Noraa being town here; I just feel like if Noraa were scum, the vibe from Pizza would be different.

I get where Pizza is coming from on Pooky, not for the scumread on them but more for the general activity from Pooky and the nature of Pooky's posts, but I am more and more thinking that Pooky genuinely believes he's found scum and is thus town.

I believe that you are town.

I believe the LLD/GreyICE slots are town--which is now willow and Klick.

I strongly think shadowslug is town, too, and weakly think N_M is town as well, so that leaves:

GreyICE/willow1
Lunar Martian/clidd
LadyLambdadelta/Klick
Shadowslug
PookytheMagicalBear

Not_Mafia


tris/NPOM
Toogeloo

Flea The Magician
Gamma Emerlad

BBmolla

Locktown, strong town, ehhhhhhhhhhh not sure, lean scum, scum to me.

[mastina]

Not a catch-up thing but you need to justify why RQS is a scumtell for you if that’s still your main reason to SR me

It never was; RQS is pro-scum but that doesn't mean it comes from scum, I just happen to think you were scum doing RQS rather than town doing RQS.

[mastina]

I am hesitant to start a new wagon with 2 days to deadline however. We can't even move on past Pooky and pizza, and at this rate we either no lim today, or pick a side in the 1v1.

(Recent mafiascum PTSD triggered)

I really wanna know why the Molla wagon fell apart--the dude literally was at L-3 and yet the wagon just...disappeared.

[mastina]

VOTE: Gamma

This is a much better vote than Pooky or pizza tho and if I can't get Molla wagoned then this is the best alternative available.

[mastina]

I wanted to sheep Mastina here, but I'm having trouble seeing scum!BBmola rn.

Okay then pretend you're not sheeping me--pretend you're sheeping GreyICE. (Not willow, his replacement, GreyICE himself.)

Like BBMolla posting what he did? Fucking bad play. -_- What the hell were you thinking? Seriously.

GreyIces intro posts are awful

No really. Did you join the game and think "I'm gonna tell the scum I'm taking the most useful power from the pack so they know to definitely avoid passing themselves my pack"?
Or did you think "I'm taking the scummiest power from the pack, I'll tell the town in an attempt to look town so I'm not autolynched if they find out."

Vote: BBMolla

Inquiring minds are curious here.

what towncred would I gain by taking a scum power
I'm literally being open about it so that if that many people think I'm scummy or whatever I won't take it
like your logic makes no fucking sense

Getting caught as having taken a scum power first pick by something like a rolecop, or draft pack cop, or anything like that, would be an extremely negative thing, yes? I understand the value of picking a scum power out of a pack full of bad powers, but I don't understand the value in announcing "hey my pack is so bad the best thing I can do is hatedraft a scum power that depending on how packs pass the scum might not even see".
I'm not seeing the "town" in this announcement. I see the scum CYA.

can you explain bolded?

It's explained following the bold. Essentially, scum will struggle to find avenues of attack for scum pushes on town, and will push things that look easy to get away with.

Mmm, interesting logic. Very mafia theory-esque. So put your money where your mouth is. I'm ignoring a stronger avenue of attack on someone to push this on BBMolla because "I can get away with it." So... where is it? Where's the avenue I'm missing?

I'm mostly losing my shit because it seems a lot of people who have more experience are calling it a scumtell, when that's just a shit take all over.
chief among the idiot army being pooky, to the point where it's so flagrant he's probably scum for it

That was a lousy answer to what you thought of bbmolla

[mastina]

Nvm lets flashwagon BBmolla.

Yes, let's.

He's essentially saying to wagon the GreyICE slot, the LLD slot, or the tris slot.

[mastina]

I'll wait for Mastina to come back, I want to see her opinion between NPOM and Klick.

NPOM is a weaker townread so if you forced me to choose between NPOM and Klick I'd choose to wagon NPOM--I just wouldn't be happy because I'm explicitly of the belief that {Pizza, Pooky, Klick} are all town, with a side of NPOM being a (admittedly weaker) townread.

Nobody willing to answer me on who started the Molla wagon.

Either me or GreyICE.

[mastina]

klick will actually be more useful & readable as game goes on imo

And yet y'all mislynched him D1.

You should feel ashamed since the slot was the LLD slot and the LLD slot was obviously town from the onset and I am VERY miffed about that.

NPOM would've been a lousy elimination, but even he'd have been a better elimination than Klick.

VOTE: BBMolla.

Molla's still scum here.

[mastina]

the player I think has the most alarms going off for me in my head atm is mastina. I'm bothered by her NM townread, it feels really forced and like she's trying to justify not voting there in the future. And I don't like her shade of Flea without any actual pressure there because reading her reads it felt like her reasoning for the Flea vote was the most concrete thing she had to me, and if mastina's town I felt decent about sheeping her reasoning for Flea probably being scum. I feel less conviction from her about the votes she's actually making than I do about her Flea read.

I realize this is posthumous, but there's a really simple explanation for this:

I really like Flea as a scummer and as a player--I do not like eliminating faer, and prefer for faer to live for as long as is possible, purely because I enjoy faer presence, so I actively avoid voting Flea unless I have no other choice (or a very very very VERY compelling reason to, a la Haschel's Flea case).

That enjoyment for Flea does not mean I won't neglect to mention a scumread on faer, tho. It does however mean that push come to shove, I will vote Molla ten times out of ten rather than Flea. (Also, Flea's possible scum, but Molla IS scum. So there's a strength of reads thing involved.)

[mastina]

Honestly, I don't see how you can angleshoot publicly.

Honestly mods who limit questions to PMs are actually compromising their games MORE than mods who answer publicly--because it's limited to PMs, you can actually get BETTER confirmation of a slot being town in a lot of situations, or even confirm a slot as scum, based on info from PMs.

That's why I always advocate for publicly answering questions, assuming they're purely about flipped roles and/or hypothetical roles. (E.g. asking "MOD: would my bodyguard action do..." wouldn't be answered, but "MOD: would a hypothetical bodyguard action do..." would be.)

[mastina]

OK, now to look at the Klick Wagon... There was a lot of weird stuff happening on that wagon and given it seems to be mostly based on a shoddy vote on me that cause the elimination there were some seriously opportunistic shifts there - honestly my vote probably being the worse one VCA wise given it was essentially hammer as we got NM here

I mean--the Klick wagon was absolute crap. The reasons for voting Klick were all shit and it literally caused the fucking mislynch of one of the towniest best slots in the game.

GreyICE into willow might've been a definitive downgrade (no offense meant to willow, but GreyICE is one of the greatest players of all time so willow just isn't of GreyICE's caliber, that's not detracting from willow as a player, that's just fact), but LLD into Klick was more of a sidegrade (comparable in skill, weaker as scum and not as good at convincing others but better at obvtowning and comparable in accuracy as a scumhunter) and the wagon on him was absolutely one of the worst wagons of all time.

Sadly.

While I would love a wagon so shit to be scumdriven.

It aint gonna have more than two scum on it.
It might not even have two--it should have at least one, but unfortunately, as shit as the wagon was, I can see it as mostly town.
(Am bitter about it tho in part DUE to that--if the wagon was scumdriven I couldn't be mad but because it WASN'T scumdriven I absolutely AM.)

[mastina]

Votecount 1.12

We brought pizza (1) BBmolla
NoPowerOverMe (3) willow1 - shadowslug - clidd
Flea The Magician (1) Klick
BBmolla (1) Mastina
Klick (7) toogeloo - Gamma Emerald - We brought pizza - NoPowerOverMe - PookyTheMagicalBear - Flea The Magician - Not_Mafia

Banished !

Actually.

I take it back.

The NPOM wagon is pure town--unless you wanna give the argument willow or shadowslug are scum, which they just aren't.

Klick was town.
I am town.

The only way there's not three scum on the wagon is if Molla's scum.
So I take it back:

There is either two scum on the wagon if Molla is scum, or three scum on the wagon if Molla is town.

Those are the ONLY possibilities.

Pooky's push I'm pretty sure came from town, and N_M did what he always does (every L-2 is essentially an L-1 as long as N_M is alive) so is explicitly null (tho to reiterate, the one and only reason N_M would be scum is that this is literally the most active, most content, N_M has ever been in a game which is explicitly "too townie to be town" logic; I townread him for what he's done thusfar).

Tho I also townread Pizza I'd have to review their push there to see if I thought it was town or not.

Most of the votes there, just...aren't town tho.

In {Toogeloo, Gamma Emerald, NPOM, Flea}, there is, objectively, a

minimum

of one scum. Like, no matter what: that group has to have at least one scum in there.

I happen to rather strongly believe it's two.

[mastina]

Williow1/GreyICE
Shadowslug
PookytheMagicalBear

We brought pizza - Hydra of Infinity 324 / Noraa / MURDERCAT

Not_Mafia

NPOM/tris
Toogeloo


Gamma Emerlad
Flea The Magician

BBmolla

Townbloc townbloc-lite (need to review), strong townread, meh-reads (poe possible scum), scumreads, strong scumread.

[mastina]

Williow1/GreyICE
Shadowslug
PookytheMagicalBear

We brought pizza - Hydra of Infinity 324 / Noraa / MURDERCAT

Not_Mafia

NPOM/tris
Toogeloo


Gamma Emerlad
Flea The Magician

BBmolla

Townbloc townbloc-lite (need to review), strong townread, meh-reads (poe possible scum), scumreads, strong scumread.

To explain: GreyICE was very obviously town and LLD and Klick alike seemed to think he was town. That is the strongest townread I have in the game for good reason. willow coming in is a disappointment because willow is no GreyICE, but nothing willow's done has thrown the read I had into doubt; willow remains town.

shadowslug has just radiated town with every post--I admit I have absolutely zero familiarity with shadowslug; I don't know what shadowslug's meta is. However, shadowslug just has an aura of being town, with everything shadowslug is doing looking town. shadowslug gives off the energy of being a voice of reason for the town, logical, reasonable, and thinking critically in a way that I think looks town.

Pooky is more gut. I don't really have an explanation for this other than that Pooky's pushes look really damn sincere in a way that I just don't think is scum--it looks like he genuinely believes what he is pushing. And while this was wrong-town on Klick D1 (proven) and might be wrong-town on Pizza too (if Pizza is also town), wrong town is still town and I get the feeling that Pooky is town who genuinely believed he was in the right, rather than Pooky being scum hard-pushing town. In other words, Pooky gives off a sense of conviction that I don't think comes from scum.

Pizza I realize I need to review, but I actually get similar vibes--I just don't think that Pizza is scum with who they are pushing, why they are pushing, and overall, the hydra's dynamics. I realize Noraa isn't as lighthearted as normal, I realize Noraa isn't as present as normal, but Noraa still is giving me the sense of fire, the sense of passion, the sense of vindicativeness, that I associate with her as town and Infinity also looks town to me.

Not_Mafia I've explained--this is literally the most content Not_Mafia has ever posted in a game. This is literally the most active Not_Mafia has ever been. This is literally the most I have ever seen from Not_Mafia. Literally the only way I see him as scum is if it is BECAUSE he is being so town; he is actually acting like a normal townie rather than the Not_Mafia I'm familiar with.

tris seemed town enough, but I admit that I lack the familiarity to be sure she was town. NPOM hasn't been terrible, either, he's just been a bit lackluster. He doesn't radiate town, he's just kinda there, unchanging in content's ability to generate a read--which is to say, what he posts doesn't make me think he's more likely to be scum; what he posts doesn't make me think he's more likely to be town. He's just not a slot I have a good read on, but the read

was

originally town.

Toogeloo is...Toogeloo. I also thought he was town, but I've always struggled to read him, and his content is a bit lackluster but it is always lackluster, but he still looked town initially, soooo. Toogeloo is just...being Toogeloo.


I admit that part of my scumreads is POE, but it's also in their content.
I just haven't felt Gamma was town this game at all.
Flea looks fairly strongly scum to me, but the reasons are a bit intangible.

Molla just isn't town tho.

I'm going to bed now, but I should probably explain the scumreads in more detail tomorrow or soonish at least.

[mastina]

@mastina if you think my wagon was so towny did you visit me last night?

I did not activate a visiting role N1 so no, I did not.

[mastina]

There's nothing that says there has to be scum on an elim wagon, there just usually is because of probability

In this case, the belief there's 2-3 scum on the elimination wagon tho is based on the names off of it.
The names off of it are BBMolla, myself (I am town), Klick (who is flipped town), clidd (who is flipped town), willow (who I strongly townread), and shadowslug (who I also strongly townread).

For the elimination wagon to be all town, it would require the scumteam to be exactly {BBMolla, willow1, shadowslug}.

In other words--for every name off the wagon you believe to be town, you must add a scum ON the wagon.

If you believe willow is town, that's a minimum of one scum.
If you believe willow and shadowslug are town, that's a minimum of two scum.
If you believe willow, shadowslug, and Molla are all town (I don't; see also, voting Molla), then you must, inherently, believe three scum are on the wagon.

The elimination wagon having 2-3 scum on it is thus, a guarantee. Not an assumption.

The only question is which of the names you believe to be the scum, since you can make a compelling argument for literally every single member of the wagon being scum. (4-5 of the members of the wagon are town, so with only 2-3 as scum, the wagon while sucking was still inherently made more of town than of scum.)

This is actually one of the reasons I prefer voting Molla, too.

Unless you believe all three scum were on the wagon, the odds of finding scum off the wagon are actually higher. If there's one scum off the wagon, there's a 33% chance of finding them objectively (tho subjectively it jumps to 100% being Molla). In contrast, on the Klick wagon, 2/7 comes out to objectively ~29%. (Admittedly, tho, 3/7 is ~43%. So if the wagon has three scum on it rather than two scum, obviously the odds there are better. So the question on whether to vote Molla becomes: do you believe that there's 2 scum on the Klick wagon, or 3? If 2, vote Molla; if 3, vote someone on the wagon.)

@mastina if you think my wagon was so towny did you visit me last night?

I did not activate a visiting role N1 so no, I did not.

So you're saying you didn't leave your house?

Correct--if you're planning on fakeclaiming a guilty on me tho, I should warn you that you're in for a

rude

surprise. One that I will not be claiming even if run up.

I did activate a power, so I am currently not vanilla, but this power was one that fundamentally cannot visit another player. So for all intents and purposes, I am effectively a VT. (I suppose it wouldn't hurt to check to see if activating the power counted as a self-visit, but I fundamentally could not have visited another player last night.)

[mastina]

So mastina has my pack from last night, which means I know what I left her.

That'd be three VTs and one power that feels like it should be passed along further so that it can upgrade further. (A role Gypyx called one thing but which we literally have a wiki to call it by its actual name.)

I've never faked a guilty before, why would I start now?

I wouldn't know, but any result of yours where you claim I did a visiting action would inherently be a lie because I didn't--I got confirmation from the mod that activating my power last night did not count as a visit at all. So if you claim that I did visit...it'd, inherently, be you lying. I wouldn't be able to know why you were lying, just that you were, because I 100% know for a fact that I did not visit anyone last night because I

couldn't

visit anyone last night. The pack that I started with had three non-visiting roles, one of which I activated last night, and two visiting roles (both of which I felt should be upgraded before they were used since one was completely worthless and the other was only nominally useful as-was), which the person who it was passed onto (Pooky I think if my playerlist math is right) can confirm they received.

[mastina]

first, it is antitown imo to be more specific, but i'm very confident that toog did not make the night kill last night!

I'll buy it.

I also buy that you're town.

I'm also willing to buy that NPOM's play is too weird to be scum, too.

Which means the scum pool is narrowed rather significantly:

Objectively, {BBMolla, Flea, Pizza, Not_Mafia, Gamma, Pooky, shadowslug}.

I am removing Pooky from there due to my townread and shadowslug similarly so.

Subjectively, {BBMolla, Flea, Pizza, Not_Mafia, Gamma}.
In that pool the towniest names are ironically Not_Mafia and Pizza imo so I'd prefer not there especially not Pizza (who even if they are scum I think is a poor elimination today), but you could convince me on any of the five being the scumteam combo.

Again I'd like to stress that I prefer voting Molla, for good reason.

[mastina]

I am not trying to tell you anything. What I am saying is I think you fucked up your fake claim. You say you got a pack with 2 doctors in it. Then you claimed to take that role. You then yourself would have one shot of doctor remaining to use on a future night. However if whoever is 3 slots down/up/whatever direction from you has a 1 shot doctor then it’s likely you never doctored at all.

I have a different take; Pooky was legitimate in his claim but didn't fully understand the mechanics.

Pooky can still have the 2x doctor role, now with one less shot, and not realize it, thinking it got passed on by misinterpreting the mechanics, yes?

I for one didn't realize that roles which didn't specify the time effect or shots would be permanent. (I've passed up on taking roles that I could have, in hindsight, activated with no consequence and permanently used as a power role.) It took me rereading my powers each day to realize that, and I did so only just now, after you brought it up.

I looked at my D2 role and it has a role that specifies it can be used each night if picked up, but that's a detail very easy to miss if you're not paying attention.

I can very easily see town picking up a role, thinking they only have it for that night, and then in spite of having the option to use it the next night, thinking they don't have it.

After all, Gypyx PMs us what our new pack of powers is; Gypyx to my knowledge does not PM us with a list of what powers we have

available

(the two are not one and the same as you yourself are noting. The available powers we have are any powers which aren't outside of their gated day or out of shots. But Gypyx only lists the available powers from the packs we're given).

Also, MathBlade: I can confirm that this game has a LOT of overlap in roles. I've gotten at least 2-3 nearly identical roles on different days, including today having received a protective. (Not a 1x doctor, but yes a protective.)

Also, since you asked for catchup, here's some perspective:

Votecount 1.12

We brought pizza (1) BBmolla
NoPowerOverMe (3) willow1 - shadowslug - clidd
Flea The Magician (1) Klick
BBmolla (1) Mastina
Klick (7) toogeloo - Gamma Emerald - We brought pizza - NoPowerOverMe - PookyTheMagicalBear - Flea The Magician - Not_Mafia

Banished !

The NPOM wagon is pure town--unless you wanna give the argument willow or shadowslug are scum, which they just aren't.

Klick was town. I am town.

The only way there's not three scum on the wagon is if Molla's scum.
There is either two scum on the wagon if Molla is scum, or three scum on the wagon if Molla is town.
Those are the ONLY possibilities.

Pooky's push I'm pretty sure came from town, and N_M did what he always does (every L-2 is essentially an L-1 as long as N_M is alive) so is explicitly null (tho to reiterate, the one and only reason N_M would be scum is that this is literally the most active, most content, N_M has ever been in a game which is explicitly "too townie to be town" logic; I townread him for what he's done thusfar).

Tho I also townread Pizza I'd have to review their push there to see if I thought it was town or not.

Most of the votes there, just...aren't town tho.

In {Toogeloo, Gamma Emerald, NPOM, Flea}, there is, objectively, a

minimum

of one scum. Like, no matter what: that group has to have at least one scum in there.

I happen to rather strongly believe it's two.

(I am reconsidering Not_Mafia by virtue of various factors since then but I do think that Pooky is town here. Pizza may or may not be in there.)

There's nothing that says there has to be scum on an elim wagon, there just usually is because of probability

In this case, the belief there's 2-3 scum on the elimination wagon tho is based on the names off of it.
The names off of it are BBMolla, myself (I am town), Klick (who is flipped town), clidd (who is flipped town), willow (who I strongly townread), and shadowslug (who I also strongly townread).

For the elimination wagon to be all town, it would require the scumteam to be exactly {BBMolla, willow1, shadowslug}.

In other words--for every name off the wagon you believe to be town, you must add a scum ON the wagon.

If you believe willow is town, that's a minimum of one scum. If you believe willow and shadowslug are town, that's a minimum of two scum. If you believe willow, shadowslug, and Molla are all town (I don't; see also, voting Molla), then you must, inherently, believe three scum are on the wagon.

The elimination wagon having 2-3 scum on it is thus, a guarantee. Not an assumption.

The only question is which of the names you believe to be the scum, since you can make a compelling argument for literally every single member of the wagon being scum. (4-5 of the members of the wagon are town, so with only 2-3 as scum, the wagon while sucking was still inherently made more of town than of scum.)

This is actually one of the reasons I prefer voting Molla, too.

Unless you believe all three scum were on the wagon, the odds of finding scum off the wagon are actually higher. If there's one scum off the wagon, there's a 33% chance of finding them objectively (tho subjectively it jumps to 100% being Molla). In contrast, on the Klick wagon, 2/7 comes out to objectively ~29%. (Admittedly, tho, 3/7 is ~43%. So if the wagon has three scum on it rather than two scum, obviously the odds there are better. So the question on whether to vote Molla becomes: do you believe that there's 2 scum on the Klick wagon, or 3? If 2, vote Molla; if 3, vote someone on the wagon.)

first, it is antitown imo to be more specific, but i'm very confident that toog did not make the night kill last night!

I'll buy it. I also buy that you're town. I'm also willing to buy that NPOM's play is too weird to be scum, too. Which means the scum pool is narrowed rather significantly:
Objectively, {BBMolla, Flea, Pizza, Not_Mafia, Gamma, Pooky, shadowslug}.
I am removing Pooky from there due to my townread and shadowslug similarly so.

Subjectively, {BBMolla, Flea, Pizza, Not_Mafia, Gamma}.

Given Pooky's claim and play I am removing him, too.
I may need to reconsider on NPOM again.

To give you more of where this is coming from:
willow claimed Toogeloo did not make the N1 nightkill--not a hardclear on either slot, but fairly promising for both. (I am hard-townreading willow. Toogeloo, less so, and Toog is not a hard-clear, but is probably a suboptimal elimination.)
NPOM was weird about questioning me with maybe a motion detector result on me N1.
Not_Mafia claimed to have visited me N1 with a 1x checker action.
Pooky is now a claimed 2x doctor; you are now a claimed 1x jailkeeper.
I used a non-visiting action N1.

I think that's all the claims we've had.

Play-wise, shadowslug looks strongly town; Pooky also looks town; willow additionally looks town.

So I'm mostly looking at {Molla, Not_Mafia, Pizza, NPOM} as eliminations today, with Toogeloo as a possible elimination but not an ideal one to make today.

I don't think that both N_M and NPOM are scum given the D2 interactions between them in regards to me, but I DO think between the two, there is going to be scum.
Pizza has looked fairly town; if they are town, then I'd think that Toogeloo was scum that in spite of not making the N1 kill was still scum, but I do have to admit that if I am in the right direction by POE in spite of them looking town they have a fair chance of being scum.
Molla is just always scum here though.

I should give some full disclosure; you may note: I

was

scumreading your slot, and had been for the entirety of the game. But having seen your immediate entrance into the game, I think you're probably town here which is why I'm doing this.

[mastina]

Oh that was meant to have this:
VOTE: BBMolla

[mastina]

Fair warning: I REALLY don't feel like posting right now (I've been, for a while, rather badly depressed and it affects my motivation to play and the amount of effort that I put in), but given that I'll be V/LA this weekend for the sake of a different community, I kinda feel like I have to post here, so.

Btw I blocked Mastina last night as she had 0 votes on her and was scared of either her being a deep wolf or the night kill. I don’t think Mastina actually does the kill here so gonna lock her in as town since her reaction was good.

Jailkept* lmao

lol i also protected mastina

Well that means I'm pretty much conftown.

Given that scum killed me last night, I wonder who that makes be scum?

Who was I pushing yesterday?

Subjectively, {BBMolla, Flea, Pizza, Not_Mafia, Gamma}.
Again I'd like to stress that I prefer voting Molla, for good reason.

(So it's not Flea and not Gamma who is now MathBlade but that leaves you three possible names with three scum slots. This notably doesn't mean that all three are scum, it's possible only 1-2 are scum, but if I was the nightkill it's guaranteed there WAS scum in there.)

Given this info, Molla should be our elimination today because who else would want me dead?
Pizza wouldn't want me dead since I was one of their main defenders.
Not_Mafia wouldn't want me dead because I was one of his main defenders.

BBMolla is literally the only slot who has reason to want me dead, so with me being basically confirmed as the nightkill last night, that means Molla is basically confscum.

[mastina]

Mastina also confirmed what I did pass her which is a bodyguard. (Or if it upgraded something better)

Not a bodyguard, a different protection, but also not a 1/2x doctor, either.

There is more than one gift giving role?

I can say I started with an inventor role. I did not use it on N1 so it was passed along.

So I repeat my statement; there are in fact multiple, incredibly similar if not identical, overlapping roles.

Pooky is town. I used a 1-shot Cop ability on him night 1. He should have gotten a gift from me last night with one of the inventor powers I picked up on Night 2.

Incredibly useful result to have.
OBJECTIVELY CLEAR OR CLOSE TO:
{Pooky, mastina}
HAS AN INCREDIBLY TOWN CLAIM:
{Mathblade, Toogeloo} (Toog would almost certainly have no reason to claim a cop clear on Pooky here if Toog were scum)
HAS A CLAIM LOOSELY LOOKING TOWN:
{willow1}
OBJECTIVE REMAINDER:
{We brought pizza, Not_Mafia, NoPowerOverMe, BBMolla, shadowslug}
In those 5 names, there's three scum.

Subjectively I feel like shadowslug is more likely to be town.
Subjectively, I feel like {Not_Mafia, NPOM} are not scumbuddies due to their D2 interactions.

I'm not absolutely sure Pizza is scum here via the poe, but I AM fairly confident that Molla and NPOM are scum here, especially Molla.

I'm not seeing the mastina love tbh. She seems edgy to me.

This looks like scum trying to make up for the failed nightkill btw.

[mastina]

I should mention: I'm still V/LA and still don't feel like posting thanks to cripling depression but I have a window to post so I should.

why would I? no offense to mastina but I am entirely unthreatened by her. she's super wrong and there's no way she'll ever realize that so it's pointless to discuss with her (I've tried in the past)
she has no power here so why would I kill her

Well for a start you said it yourself--in your opinion, it's pointless to discuss with me, so the only way to stop me from voting you is to nightkill me. I have been gaining power the longer the game has gone as I've gotten more refined reads/reasons and held pretty damn good stances, too, and even if I hadn't...a vote on scum becomes more threatening the closer we get to lylo.

Plus, at this stage, we know that I was nightkilled. The question isn't why would you nightkill me; it's who has the highest incentive TO nightkill me.

And there's literally only one slot that fits that description.
Pizza's a player who might kill me anyway, but you're the only one who had an actual motive.

also I found out it is not a doc shot but a simple doc shot, which means it only works on people who have only picked vanilla roles so far. so if mastina has picked anything that is not vanilla - it wouldn't actually work on her, which means you are not lying about JKing :3

Can confirm, I have picked a role that was not vanilla.

So it's confirmed to be a jailkeep on me.

But for the record, MathBlade: I don't think Pooky would be changing his story here in this way if he was scum; this RADIATES energy of town who made an understandable, but genuine, mistake.

mastina and willow, why would you not take a Neapolitan knowing it becomes near useless the more the game lasts?

I never had a Neapolitan--and Neapolitan isn't useless, because if it targets a VT who never took a role, that player becomes conftown.

I did have a vanilla cop--and vanilla cop, in this setup, IS worthless, so I passed on the role specifically hoping for it to be upgraded to a stronger one. If it became a Neapolitan that means I was right to have done so.

i think bbmolla is the best suspect if mastina was the kill which is what we both think happened last night right?

Correct! I'm already voting there so I'd appreciate it if you did, too!

[mastina]

damn i thought the second vote was a secret but now everyone can see : (

For the record this clears shadowslug for one simple reason:
shadowslug activated a doublevote today.
Today is not lylo.
Scum control how the packs shift day to day.

When you combine those three, you should see what I'm getting at:
If shadowslug were scum, with a double-vote role, shadowslug could pass the double-vote down to a scumbuddy.
In lylo, said scumbuddy, activating the double-vote, would be able to instantly win the game for the scum.

So the fact that shadowslug activated it today, the day before lylo, rather than during lylo, suggests that shadowslug is town. (The only other possibility is scum who made a serious theory-blunder that even most newbies would know not to make. So either the options are really really REALLY dumb scum, or just town. I trust in shadowslug's competency enough to believe shadowslug would not make that mistake as scum, and thus, shadowslug is conftown.)

[mastina]

So on the bright side: we've got a new slot for NPOM to help clarify the alignment thereof...

[mastina]

Ngl I'm mostly posting now because, 1: I logged in due to getting an email about a review PM, and 2: after logging in I posted in the speakeasy so felt I was obligated to post in gamethreads especially given the nature of the post I made.

Once more a reminder I'm currently both V/LA and depressed.

Since this is a pagetop, may as well do an updated readslist.

Shadowslug
Gamma Emerlad/MathBlade
PookytheMagicalBear
Williow1/GreyICE

Toogeloo

Not_Mafia
We brought pizza - Hydra of Infinity 324 / Noraa / MURDERCAT

NPOM/tris

BBmolla

locktown townread poe-pile scumread lockscum.

[mastina]

Almost50 replaces willow1

PRETTY sure that's not the scum slot that was being replaced.

Hilarious as it'd be for 2/3 of the scumteam to be replaced at the same time with Almost50 rolling scum regardless of the two, A50 is not the NPOM slot and thus I don't care to vote him.

[mastina]

I have no idea why NPOM would take a PGO and then claim that he took it, that effectively nullifies the use of it

>Variant on the Amished tell of saying the player you replaced sucked.

Bad news I only townread 3 of you alive right now

>Doesn't actually say who the townreads are, yet alone, why.

The current standoff in terms of wagons right now (myself/Pizza) is pretty mediocre
VOTE: Shadowslug

>Saves a slot who has a very real chance of being scum
>Votes for a player that is, mechanically, conftown

VOTE: Mastina

>Votes for a

second

player that is, mechanically, conftown

You're scum lol

>Calls a

third

player that is, mechanically, conftown, to be scum
>Uses the "lol" defense
>Whole attack reeks of OMGUS

Impossible to jail Mastina, NPOM detected movement of her on N2 lol

>NPOM claimed a motion detect on me with movement N1, not N2, and this result is impossible because NPOM activated the PGO N2 and thus could not have motion detected N2 as well

As far as replacements go, unwnd was about as perfect as it gets for spewing scum immediately and promptly. It'd literally be impossible to spew scum harder if they tried.

I'm now okay with either an unwnd or BBMolla elimination today.

[mastina]

I'll tell you all what: You settle things between you all and let me know whom to vote. I will follow the conversation(s) going on from the point I joined the game, but I don't think I'll be reading before that point (at least not at this time)

Come vote NPOM today.

Sure thing!
VOTE: unwnd.

[mastina]

can I actually ask if people think lurking pizza is town

No not really, and I would vote there, but:

I would vote Pizza

Either scum bus or scum claim by all having to be on it. I like it.

I agree with MathBlade here: either scum are bussing Pizza, or scum are desperately trying to eliminate Pizza by hopping onto that wagon to save themselves.

In either case, I kinda prefer to vote the scum.

[mastina]

can I actually ask if people think lurking pizza is town

No not really, and I would vote there, but:

I would vote Pizza

Either scum bus or scum claim by all having to be on it. I like it.

I agree with MathBlade here: either scum are bussing Pizza, or scum are desperately trying to eliminate Pizza by hopping onto that wagon to save themselves.

In either case, I kinda prefer to vote the scum.

To put it another way: Pizza has a fair chance of flipping scum and I am suspicious there so I would wagon them.

But unwnd and Molla are basically

guaranteed

to be scum so I'd prefer to flip them first.

[mastina]

are we really not going to get pizza?

Pizza can wait until tomorrow. Today should be either tris/NPOM/unwnd or BBMolla.

[mastina]

Mastina would you say it’s fair to say there’s a scum in you/unwd?

Yes.

And given that I never make the mafia kills and have a long, long, history of sending scumbuddies to do them instead of me except in very specific situations, you can bet your ass that I wasn't roleblocked from doing the kill and was instead protected from it.

[mastina]

I just realized Tris/NPOM/Me is all one slot
Jesus mastina you really just don't give a fuck about this do you

You apparently were under the impression I wasn't listing them all as one slot but I was.

I didn't say "tris/NPOM/unwnd/BBMolla". I said "tris/NPOM/unwnd or BBMolla". Separating Molla from tris/NPOM/unwnd but having the one slot together.

Because I meant what I said.

Pizza can wait until tomorrow.

Today should be either the tris/NPOM/unwnd slot, or BBMolla.

[mastina]

i used my hider invention to hide with pizza
but theyre dead
and im not
like what
lolol

I don't have an answer.

I babysit BBMolla last night given that I was under the impression I'd be the nightkill, but I am alive and Pizza is dead instead.

Like, unless it was: scum kill on me (triggering my babysit kill), someone else protect me, busdrive of Pizza-Molla (so my kill went onto Pizza and your hide onto Molla), I legit don't have an answer.

[mastina]

(For the record: having a babysit was why I wanted the NPOM slot dead. I couldn't babysit a claimed PGO, which would've limited the possible shots to exactly one if we, say, eliminated Molla yesterday. But with the PGO dead, there were THREE possible options.)

[mastina]

The wording on my babysit is specifically that the target will be killed if I DIE, rather than be killed if I am KILLED tho so...it shouldn't be from me.

[mastina]

i used my hider invention to hide with pizza
but theyre dead

Also, since we are claiming, I watched N_M and nobody visited him.

I was VT last night

okay yes, I tracked mastina and got no result

And I Babysat BBMolla.

If Molla was roleblocked, it is incredibly unlikely Pooky was, and yet Pooky didn't die from his hide with no explanation for how Pizza died and where the scum nightkill went.

So:
-Molla's blocker
-Pizza's killer
-The source of Pooky not being dead
-The lack of a scum nightkill

Are all unknown factors right now, with {Not_Mafia, Toogeloo, Almost50, VFP} being the only slots being left to give us any sort of explanation here for how last night played out.

And of them, Almost50 cannot explain Pooky's lack of death at the very least.

I think it'd be worth massclaiming at this point in time to try and solve the game mechanically, or at the very least, to solve the mystery behind last night, because it could generate possible conftown here.

Plus today's the day before lylo anyway, which makes it a decent day for it anyway.

Thoughts?

[mastina]

I think it'd be worth massclaiming at this point in time to try and solve the game mechanically, or at the very least, to solve the mystery behind last night, because it could generate possible conftown here.

Plus today's the day before lylo anyway, which makes it a decent day for it anyway.

Thoughts?

(For the record in order to maximize scumhunting I feel like the best way to go about this if we decide to go for it is "claim when you show up" rather than sticking to a particular order because while a set claim order might be more protown in most cases, in this case I feel like we'd lose too much scumhunting time and spend too much time on mechanics and not enough on scumhunting. But again, that's something to get thoughts on. First, if we should massclaim, and second, if we should, if we should just do it as we show up rather than waiting on a specific order.)

(Also if we do massclaim I feel like it'd be best to have some form of order. Initial power list, D2 powerlist, D3 power list, D4/current powerlist, what powers were used/activated each night, etc. But again something to, briefly, discuss, if we think has merit. I do because I feel like we can maybe solve the game mechanically*.)

*If we weren't mechsolving I'd maintain that Molla was scum by play tho, because of N2, given that I know I am town, the scum NK is missing from N2, MathBlade's jailkeep of me is the only possible source of it, and knowing I am not scum, I thus know I was the N2 nightkill, and knowing I was the N2 nightkill, that means that I had to be doing SOMETHING to make the scum think I was NK-worthy and Molla being scum is legit the only thing I can think of.

But aside from Molla I don't have a second scumread right now and even he is based mostly off of an assumption that I was killed for doing something right. Which is one reason why I kinda want to narrow things down mechanically with a massclaim but I realize I am not the entirety of the town so my position is not the absolute 100% objectively always correct one.

[mastina]

I did a bus drive on you and BBmolla. The roleblock if true was intended for you.

Actually this might explain the absence of the scum nightkill, too, depending on the mod's answer to this:

Spoiler:

1-shot deflector

once in the game, you may target a player, every action targeting him will be redirected to a second player of your choice

MOD: Say a busdriver, Player A, busdrove players B and C.
What would happen if this role deflected all actions from player D (neither b or c) onto player B? Would they land on player B, or would they land on player C?
What would happen if this role deflected all actions from player B to player C? Would the busdrive still work?

(I think it's pretty damn obvious that when Gypyx said he had some issues resolving roles last night it had something to do with action resolution and this seems like the obvious way.)

For the record, Mastina I would love a read wall from you.

I don't have much of one, and haven't since D2, for good reason. (From D3 onward things have been too muddied for me to have much clarity.)

Pooky is conftown here by play--he has never bussed on D1 in the history of his play across the entire site. He pushed Pizza, heavily, on D1, and them pushing him heavily on D1, too, and has continued to push them for three days in a row. That is such a strong, longstanding meta that while he could violate it at any game to avoid it being a trust tell, balance of probability is, he's just town here. More than that, even aside from the super-duper-strong meta tell, he looks town ANYWAY.

You are conftown here by role--you are the only explanation for the lack of N2 kill.
(FACT: There was no scum nightkill last night.
FACT: Nobody claimed any action that could stop the kill aside from you.
FACT: You claimed a jailkeep on me, which means either I did the kill or scum killed me.
FACT: I am town, and while I am unflipped in the eyes of others so they don't know this is a fact I already know it is a fact that I couldn't do the kill due to being town and thus,
FACT: I was the N2 nightkill; you stopped it from happening.)
Beyond that, there is a very real chance that last night I managed to return the favor, depending on how the mod resolved actions. If the scum tried to bounce a kill from Pizza onto you, it's possible it went through on you...with my babysit saving your life due to it being busdriven onto you. (Again, does depend on action resolution tho. If scum tried to bounce a kill from Pizza onto you but the busdrive made it go to Molla, there's no explanation for their failure.)
Even beyond that, while I struggled to see Gamma as hard-town, I could see the town in him and you are, thoroughly, town by play, through and through.

With the doublevote being permanent, the shadowslug slot (now VFP) may not be conftown especially since we are in the day before lylo and it'd be mylo rather than lylo anyway. However, the reasons I used to conftown the slot I think still hold true; scum could have saved that ability for lylo by simply passing it around without using it, and then springing it today for, if Pizza hadn't died, a surprise lylo when people thought it was mylo.

Plus, there's his slot now claiming to have busdriven you and BBMolla. While that usage of the busdrive is not inherently alignment-indicative (because both town and scum using a busdrive will be inclined to busdrive a townie player and a scummy player), the simple fact is, the usage of that role in that way is my working theory for having been a spanner in the works of the scumteam's plans, indicating town.

For two scum remaining, that'd leave: {Not_Mafia, Toogeloo, BBMolla, Almost50} as the grouping for them.

I have thought BBMolla was scum the entire game.
I was the N2 nightkill, and that gives further credence to him being scum, too. If he wasn't scum, then why was I shot?

But even with BBMolla as scum, that leaves a second scum in {Toogeloo, Not_Mafia, Almost50} and I don't know who it'd be between them.

[mastina]

in the second case, the bus drive takes priority, so all actions targeting C would go to B

So basically, if the scum deflected all actions targeted at BBMolla onto MathBlade, what they'd really be doing is deflecting all actions targeted at MathBlade onto BBMolla;
If the scum deflected all actions targeted at MathBlade onto BBMolla, what they'd really be doing is deflecting all actions targeted at BBMolla onto MathBlade.

In the case of the former, I think that might work as an explanation:
Scum deflect all actions targeting BBMolla onto MathBlade.
Except, what they really end up doing is deflecting all actions on MathBlade onto BBMolla.
I babysitted BBMolla, but per the busdrive, I actually babysitted MathBlade.
Scum target BBMolla with a nightkill, expecting it to be deflected onto MathBlade.
Except per the busdriver, they were targeting MathBlade.
And per my babysit, MathBlade didn't die.

Maybe?

(This still doesn't explain BBMolla's lack of result or the kill on Pizza or Pooky not being dead tho.)

[mastina]

VOTE: mastinaProbably not moving unless someone posts an ironclad case.

I do like that vote. It’s my prevailing theory Mastina intended to or ended up blocking BBMolla if she is scum.

I can prove I am town pretty definitively on every level here, MathBlade. (This is mostly to him, but

Pooky:

this also applies to you!)

Spoiler: Reason 1: Meta:

I have posted in this game literally every single day without fail, so much so that

in a game that features ridiculously short prod timers

, as an

original player

, I've not been prodded so much as once.

Every. single. day. I have posted here--often multiple times, coming back 2-3 times a day. I have been incredibly active in churning out content, which is there a plenty in my iso. While most of the more recent content is more mechanical in nature (and for justifiable reasons, mind you), there is still scumhunting involved and a clear progression in my reads and stances and why I have them.

What does all of this mean? This is literally the game that has held my

highest level of attention

out of all of my games. I literally am posting in this game first before I post in any of my others more often than not.

Why is this listed as meta?

Because you and Pooky have literally the

freshest of fresh

scum metas on me for the state scumastina is in. So fresh that me asking questions about it necessitates rhetorical questions. But to ask those rhetorical questions that I don't expect you to answer: how active was scumastina last? How strongly did scumastina play last? What was scumastina's level of interest, investment, and overall publicly presented content? Was she posting every day, multiple times, active and involved the entire time, or was she barely skirting by on the literal bare minimum?

Does this game in any way resemble that game?

I realize that you also have somewhat fresh scumastina meta from our micro together. I realize that this game has in common with recent scumastina games a rather heavy focus on mechanics--but is the overall play, the overall investment, the overall push, anywhere even remotely the same?

Bluntly: it isn't. This isn't scumastina, not even remotely. I've been town through and through for the entire game and it shows in my, consistent, presence in this game. I am not apathetic here. I have struggled with depression, I have struggled to get a gamesolve post-D2 (since from D3 onward I was running low on viable scumspects and even today I only have Molla as scum without knowing who his scumbuddy is), but in spite of those struggles, I have still been

trying

and putting in actual serious real effort here.

As just one example, back when you and Pooky were fighting, who was the player who was saying both of you were town? I was very very adamant that you were town, MathBlade, and that Pooky was town, too. Back when you were convinced Pooky was scum, I was convinced that he was town. While you eventually managed to change your read on him to town, I was always there saying as much.

Contrast my scumgames where I did as little as was humanly possible by and large.

Spoiler: Reason 2: Who would be my scumbuddy?

It is pretty damn obvious that you are town and that Pooky is town. So who's left for being scum?

I have pushed BBMolla as being scum the entire game--it can't be him.

I have given, fairly solid imo, reasons for why VFP should be conftown here, not only through the slot's holding of a doublevote, but also through the fact that the busdrive last night seems to, very clearly, be a spanner in the works of the scumteam's plans since if they had the busdriver, we almost certainly wouldn't have had no town death last night (as between a busdriver and a deflector, they could basically guarantee a kill on town by managing to combine the two).

That literally leaves only {Not_Mafia, Toogeloo, Almost50} as possible scumbuddies for me--and one of them, Toogeloo, is voting me, so it's almost definitely not him.

Do you think I am scum with Not_Mafia, or do you think I am scum with Almost50? Because for me to be scum you MUST think that one of the two is scum.

Spoiler: Reason 3: Motive (/Mechanics p1):

I never lie about my role as scum. You know this to be true.
I have said that I used my babysit action on BBMolla--this is, 100%, guaranteed to be the truth because I do not lie about my role action or the nature of my role. I definitely had a Babysit, and I definitely used it on BBMolla. You KNOW my methodology as scum so you KNOW that when I make a claim like this of having done it, I did it exactly as I said I did. I've never lied about my action as scum, ever, because of a strong belief that the truth is my greatest ally. After all, if I was tracked, followed, and/or rolecopped and the results didn't line up with my claim...that is opening me up to being eliminated off of a lie.

So I just don't lie.

Okay, so if you accept that I'm not lying about taking and using a babysit on BBMolla...the question then becomes: What is the motive?

As scum, there is no motive for this. As scum, with the PGO dead on D3, I would have every reason to believe no scum died N3. I would thus have every reason to believe that, come D4, we would be in mylo. Why would I take, and burn, the babysit? If I was concerned that town could use it to save someone after a mylo mislynch, I could pass it to scum. There would be two scumbuddies to pass it to. Or even if I was concerned, I could just...take it, and then...not use it. I didn't need to burn it on BBMolla as scum last night because doing so had no motive.

A babysit used by scum won't be giving the scum an extra death because it'd require scum to die and I wouldn't be vigged. A babysit used by scum COULD stop the scum kill accidentally, via redirect actions that, per Pizza being scum with a deflector role, scumastina would know to exist in the game.

Using the babysit as scum is thus, something that has no proscum motive and is, explicitly, an antiscum action.

Now contrast that with the motive to use it as town:
As town, I KNOW I was the N2 nightkill via your jailkeep of me.
To reiterate:
FACT: There was no town death N2.
FACT: The only claimed source to stop the N2 kill is your jailkeep of me, MathBlade.
Therefore, FACT: Your jailkeep of me stopped the scum nightkill.
FACT: I am town.
FACT: I therefore know that I didn't make the scum nightkill with it being blocked. (But more on that below.)
FACT: I therefore know that *I* was the N2 scum nightkill, that the scumteam TRIED TO KILL ME N2.
FACT: On D3, you stated you had passed me a protective role.
FACT: No other player on D3 claimed to be in possession of a protective role. I was the only one who claimed to have access to one.

CONCLUSION: Between me being the confirmed N2 scum nightkill, and me having the only claimed protective role left in the game after the two others were burned N2, it was incredibly likely I would be the N3 scum nightkill, both due to being the N2 scum nightkill and possessing a protection, with anyone not-me being killed having a risk I would save them and me being incredibly likely to be wide open to attack.

Thus, using my babysit on BBMolla as town has a very, very, VERY obvious, self-evident reason: a full belief that I was going to die N3 and wanting to take BBMolla down with me, bringing us to 7 alive today, and either in lylo with the main scum mislynch down IF Molla is town, or in the day before lylo with one scum dead from me taking them down with me.

There's zero scum motive in using a babysit; there is EVERY town motive in using the babysit.

Spoiler: Reason 4: Mechanics (part two)

For me to be scum requires me to have performed the N2 nightkill.

Only there's a fundamental problem with that:

In most scumteam combinations this game, I have a very strong aversion to making the scum nightkill.

Even IF you assume that I wouldn't want Pizza to make it (fair enough, that's plausible enough), again, what scumbuddies would I have that would make me want to make the nightkill?

Sure, with Pooky as my scumbuddy, I'd make it over him--but Pooky is conftown here.
Sure, with GreyICE as my scumbuddy, I'd make it over him--but GreyICE was out of the game before the end of D1, yet alone, N2. I would very much NOT make the nightkill over willow; I would send willow to perform the nightkill because willow was a much lower-profile player less likely to attract attention.
Sure, Almost50 MIGHT make me make the kill over him...but he wasn't in the game until D3, after N2, and thus, I couldn't decide to make the kill over him.
Toogeloo and Not_Mafia both run into the willow1 issue--I would send Toogeloo or Not_Mafia to perform the nightkill because Toogeloo and Not_Mafia were both much lower-profile players less likely to attract attention.

The ONLY slots in the game I would send myself over them to do the nightkill are...
BBMolla and shadowslug.

Shadowslug's slot I again feel has a reasonable chance of being conftown mechanically.

And BBMolla has been the slot I've pushed as scum since D1 (and he's done a lot of pushing of me, too, in turn).

So in short: there's nobody here who could be scum with me, who would make me make the N2 kill. Simply put: I wouldn't make the N2 nightkill here as scum.

I am, overall, fairly adverse to making the scum nightkill overall, and across my entire scum career if you want me to prove it I can give dozens upon dozens of examples where I preferred my scumbuddy/scumbuddies to make the kill rather than me. The times where I make the kill are, explicitly, exceptions to the general rule, in games where I felt that them making the kill was a much greater risk than me making the kill. Most of the time, it's my scumbuddies. Heck, you even have proof of this in my most recently completed scumgame. I sent Gypyx to do the kill, not me; not once, but in fact, two nights in a row, twice total.

I don't do the nightkill unless the game, situationally, specifically dictates that I should, and this game has every reason not to.

Spoiler: Reason 5: Mechanics, part 3:

Aside from that: there are no claimed protective roles for N3 other than me.

The scum kill from N3 is absent.

I claimed to use a babysitter action.

As I am not dead, that babysitter action should be a protect rather than a kill, saving a life rather than taking it.

I am literally the you of N2, of N3. Just as your jailkeep of me is the ONLY possible source of a lack of scum kill N2, my babysitter is the ONLY possible source of a lack of scum kill N3.

While I meant to use it as a kill on Molla, it is very likely, given VFP's claim of having busdriven you and Molla, that I ended up

saving your life

. Just as you saved my life N2, it is highly likely that I ended up saving your life N3 (albeit unintentionally).

I trust you to not skim and not engage on this in bad faith and to actually think it over, look at it, and give it actual serious thought and analysis but it should be pretty damn apparent that if you fucking mislynch me here you're literally doing the scum's jobs for them because I should be bloody conftown here.

[mastina]

(crickets chirping as tumbleweed rolls by) *cough*

[mastina]

I read it, but half of it is meta so nothing to really contribute on this side to it.

That's rather unfavorable. Here's the non-meta aspects of it:

Who would be my scumbuddy?
It is pretty damn obvious that you are town and that Pooky is town. So who's left for being scum?

I have pushed BBMolla as being scum the entire game--it can't be him.

I have given, fairly solid imo, reasons for why VFP should be conftown here, not only through the slot's holding of a doublevote, but also through the fact that the busdrive last night seems to, very clearly, be a spanner in the works of the scumteam's plans since if they had the busdriver, we almost certainly wouldn't have had no town death last night (as between a busdriver and a deflector, they could basically guarantee a kill on town by managing to combine the two).

That literally leaves only {Not_Mafia, Toogeloo, Almost50} as possible scumbuddies for me--and one of them, Toogeloo, is voting me, so it's almost definitely not him.

Do you think I am scum with Not_Mafia, or do you think I am scum with Almost50? Because for me to be scum you MUST think that one of the two is scum.
---
If you accept that I'm not lying about taking and using a babysit on BBMolla...the question then becomes: What is the motive?

As scum, there is no motive for this. As scum, with the PGO dead on D3, I would have every reason to believe no scum died N3. I would thus have every reason to believe that, come D4, we would be in mylo. Why would I take, and burn, the babysit? If I was concerned that town could use it to save someone after a mylo mislynch, I could pass it to scum. There would be two scumbuddies to pass it to. Or even if I was concerned, I could just...take it, and then...not use it. I didn't need to burn it on BBMolla as scum last night because doing so had no motive.

A babysit used by scum won't be giving the scum an extra death because it'd require scum to die and I wouldn't be vigged. A babysit used by scum COULD stop the scum kill accidentally, via redirect actions that, per Pizza being scum with a deflector role, scumastina would know to exist in the game.

Using the babysit as scum is thus, something that has no proscum motive and is, explicitly, an antiscum action.

Now contrast that with the motive to use it as town:
As town, I KNOW I was the N2 nightkill via your jailkeep of me.
To reiterate:
FACT: There was no town death N2.
FACT: The only claimed source to stop the N2 kill is your jailkeep of me, MathBlade.
Therefore, FACT: Your jailkeep of me stopped the scum nightkill.
FACT: I am town.
FACT: I therefore know that I didn't make the scum nightkill with it being blocked. (But more on that below.)
FACT: I therefore know that *I* was the N2 scum nightkill, that the scumteam TRIED TO KILL ME N2.
FACT: On D3, you stated you had passed me a protective role.
FACT: No other player on D3 claimed to be in possession of a protective role. I was the only one who claimed to have access to one.

CONCLUSION: Between me being the confirmed N2 scum nightkill, and me having the only claimed protective role left in the game after the two others were burned N2, it was incredibly likely I would be the N3 scum nightkill, both due to being the N2 scum nightkill and possessing a protection, with anyone not-me being killed having a risk I would save them and me being incredibly likely to be wide open to attack.

Thus, using my babysit on BBMolla as town has a very, very, VERY obvious, self-evident reason: a full belief that I was going to die N3 and wanting to take BBMolla down with me, bringing us to 7 alive today, and either in lylo with the main scum mislynch down IF Molla is town, or in the day before lylo with one scum dead from me taking them down with me.

There's zero scum motive in using a babysit; there is EVERY town motive in using the babysit.
---
Aside from that: there are no claimed protective roles for N3 other than me.

The scum kill from N3 is absent.

I claimed to use a babysitter action.

As I am not dead, that babysitter action should be a protect rather than a kill, saving a life rather than taking it.

I am literally the you of N2, of N3. Just as your jailkeep of me is the ONLY possible source of a lack of scum kill N2, my babysitter is the ONLY possible source of a lack of scum kill N3.

While I meant to use it as a kill on Molla, it is very likely, given VFP's claim of having busdriven you and Molla, that I ended up

saving your life

. Just as you saved my life N2, it is highly likely that I ended up saving your life N3 (albeit unintentionally).

I trust you to not skim and not engage on this in bad faith and to actually think it over, look at it, and give it actual serious thought and analysis but it should be pretty damn apparent that if you fucking mislynch me here you're literally doing the scum's jobs for them because I should be bloody conftown here.

While there's a few things trimmed from being meta, this is still well over half of my case for why I am town here.

I did use some meta; the point about me not nightkilling as scum is entirely self-meta, and there was one point which was literally called self-meta, and just as Pooky has a meta of "I never bus on D1 as scum" as proof for him being conftown I have a "I never lie about my role as scum" meta for confing my claim as real, but the majority of my arguments stand even without meta.

Please please if I mess up tell me I hate bus drivers and deflectors with a passion

I feel like,
1: We are close to having the right combo and answers for some of this shit, but,
2: We're never going to get the entire answer for it, both because,
3: The mechanics are incredibly hard to wrap our heads around,
4: The answers are highly situational and variant on the mod for how they played out,
5: And we don't have all the info needed to make the right conclusion and,
6: While we're mechanical-based players, wrapping our head around these multi-layered mechanics is challenging even for us to the point where asking the right questions and coming up with the right combinations is a struggle, so,
7: We can't get a perfect answer from this, but,
8: We can still sort-of break the game from the knowledge in a way.

I maintain that I believe that if scum had both the deflector and the busdriver, they wouldn't have fucked the mechanical interaction between the two up--and thus that VFP must be town.
I know I used a babysit last night and that I am apparently the only killstopper action in play for N3 and thus that it is quite likely I (however unintentionally) foiled the scum nightkill last night.
I think you and Pooky are both for your own reasons conftown here.

And if that's true, that's 4 players for 2 scum.
We can't solve the game entirely from the mechanics nor do I think we should spend too much time trying to do so--but I think they have given us an edge and pointed us in the right direction overall.

[mastina]

Oh I forgot to mention.
Also contributing to the mech solving:
I am really really tired and right now have been going through some rather crippling depression. (Literally all I feel like doing is playing Stardew Valley all day long because it's the only thing that sucks me in and requires no active effort. I can tell I am very heavily depressed right now.)

Thinking, and trying to solve mechanics, is incredibly hard right now.

There is quite a bit of frustration: I feel like if I were on top of my game, I could have the solve for the mystery. I feel like I've come close. I just can't manage to wrap my head around the exact action combo, and I feel like I SHOULD be able to, I just...haven't, when I feel like I should be able to do so, I just for varying reasons in spite of feeling that at my caliber I should...can't.

[mastina]

The undue resistance to molla all game is very sus aswell

Agreed.

alright fk it lets just get molla
VOTE: molla

The question is, do we wanna wait for a replacement and then yeet the replacement or do we want to yeet the slot before a replacement?

It makes a difference in whether I vote Molla now or later.

[mastina]

Who wants Molla

*raises hand*

I've wanted to elim Molla since D1.

[mastina]

By my count there's 2 votes on BBMolla and it takes 4 to eliminate and the person who likes to hammer people at L-1 is already voting so I can do this:
VOTE: BBMolla

Which leaves Molla at

L-1

for you, Math.

[mastina]

Oh.

I forgot that it was 5 to eliminate, not 4.

Whoops, could've joined much sooner with no risk.

Ah well.

[mastina]

Also mastinas play and meta is so nuanced, I don't think anyone who isn't mastina can replicate it no matter how hard they try

Basically yeah.

You can replicate it short short term, but long term it becomes very obvious it isn't me.

[mastina]

The thing about replicating me which makes it impossible is that there's more than one me.

Even if someone is capable of perfectly mimicking one me, they don't have the ability to then mimic the other me, or even if they did, they don't have the ability to perfectly time the switch between the two.

On different days at different times I have different mes driving so the nuances behind me will change a lot. (For instance in this very moment, the me at the front isn't actually the one who normally plays mafia. Which is one of the reasons I've been having more issues playing. This-me has been at the front a lot more frequently recently and I struggle to play as this-me.)

I literally use different language and word choice and have different tones between different mes, heck, even usage of emotes is different between the different mes (tho obviously we both use ':P', when, how frequent, etc., is different between us).

It's probably possible for someone to out-me me, in the perception of others. It wouldn't surprise me if someone was fully capable of, in an anonymous duel between me and them, to in the eyes of others look more mastina than the actual mastina based off of their perceptions of me not perfectly matching the reality. Or in other words, for the person impersonating me to play up the stereotypes of me, to play up the persona that they see as mastina, and do so in a way that makes them look more like public perception of mastina than the real mastina.

But actually impersonating me longterm isn't really viable.

Especially since I am actually someone who picks up habits from hydra partners; I've unintentionally partially impersonated THEM at times, and picked up their posting styles into my own, to the point where the mastina you see is the result of hydraing with the likes of Nacho, Katsuki, and more, who I stole bits and pieces of personality with and meshed with my own selves with different selves taking different aspects from different partners.

[mastina]

(There's also the fact that I overshare personal details about my life very openly and an impersonator doesn't know how to fabricate my life; nobody is close enough to me to have that kind of knowledge. )

[mastina]

Also, rabble rabble mafia PT when.

[mastina]

Btw I made a nomination in part from this game. <3