NY214: Project Pinecone (Game over! Town wins!)

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: HitAlt

The name was just asking to be hit with a vote... so I did.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm not mafia this time

So you are a Serial Killer again?

[MagnaofIllusion]

you betcha. are you ready to catch me again?

Already did duckling. You fell into my clever, clever trap. This time however I am going to get you before you brutally murderize me N1 since we can actually lynch this game.

VOTE: theworst

[MagnaofIllusion]

We are friends. I'm lynching you in the kindest way possible. I mean I'm whispering my vote to not wake the Pinecone and everything.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Does anyone know if Inferno is prone to going of on huge tangents of twisted logic regarding basically alignment neutral posting?

And if so is it in any way alignment indicative for him?

Asking for a friend ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Almost 9 pages already before 24 hours are up? Do you people not understand what a chill game means?

Anyway time to move my lulz playful theworst vote to scum now that we have actual scum posting.

VOTE: Flubber

I’m disappointed none of the rest of you saw the scumminess in 180. Rask coasting as scum in the first 24 hours the game is open? And hedging on Rask ( he’s not scum for this but could be scum for this other thing ) at the same time?

On other issues ..

Theworst I’m sure will make his alignment clear to me by Day 2. He was a pretty easy read as nonTown last game. Talk of policy lynching is pretty bad in regards to him.

Neither Elb or Rask are scummy for the lulz openings but hardly obvTown either.

@Rask

- why did you try to suggest my observation about Inferno was a criticism when it was an attempt to see if others would vouch for what looked like a deliberate play style and see who responded?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why are all you peeps ignoring scumFlubber?

I mean voting Gus who has been a toxic jerk probably feels good but just because he is pompous and condescending doesn’t mean he is scum. Just that he’s a bad player in the wrong game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I knew I liked you Ausuka!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Gustavo if you are Town and don’t understand that 194 and 215 are very toxic posts and the reason people have called you that you need to step back and reevaluate.

If you are scum the feigned ignorance makes sense.

[MagnaofIllusion]

oops typo should be 214 not 215.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI re 244 -- your Flubber case seems to rest on a single post, am I reading that right?

Yes. My "case" (which really isn't a case but an observation of an actual scummy post in the first 24 hours of the game) rests on that post.

Do you have an issue with that?

Also why are you still voting brass which was an RVS vote?

--

Also want to say that Gustavo has made it into my scum pool with his posting this page. His posting feels not like someone honestly looking for scum but someone bending over backwards and contorting to justify his claimed read. 310 I think embodies this best. That's not an intellectually honest statement but one meant to support his stance that profii is scum.

Have a third darkhorse read from a quick readthrough I did before dinner but will have to wait to post that read for ... reasons ...

I mean frankly while his verbiage is rather oddball the basis of profii's statement about No Lynching Day 1 stands up to reason - it is not to Town's benefit to No Lynch Day 1 regardless of the fact that a mislynch statistically is more likely to happen than a scum lynch.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Looks like enough of you are really going to just ignore the “Chill means not having more than double the posts of the median player in the game” element of the game so I’m going to have to put together a wall to gather my thoughts. Oh I can hear the cried now “Wall suck, I hate having to read” blah blah blah. You all brought this on yourselves (and by all I mean those people how have a stupid amount of posts currently).

At this stage I have a few soft Town reads – Inferno, Elbirn, Rask and Ausuka. Looking at the first three is should be pretty clear why … they each took risks with the way the opened the game and used those risks to generate discussion and movement out of luzl RVS territory. From there each has continued to be looking at players from an alignment standpoint enough for my tastes to say “you get an early Day 1 Town read”. Reason for Ausuka – look first at 250. Unless more than 1 of the group of profii / Inferno / Gust are scum I think her willingness to take a quasi controversial stance on those who drew early attention to themselves and got flack speaks to thinking beyond just the surface level of posts. In full disclosure she was willing to help build the mini wagon on Flubber so she gets Town points from me on that also.

Then we have my scum reads. Very first is of course Flubber. Early pressure for scummy posting is y no means a bad thing despite what his response at 336 and he either fails or purposefully doesn’t get why his post was scummy. Not specifically that Flubber was fence-sitting on Rask (which he was) but that he used an absolutely bogus reason to say he was scummy. Does anyone believe for a second that any player can be “coasting” less than 24 hours into the start of a game? Or that a Town Flubber would make that the tentpole of why Rask would be scummy.

This is the spot where I’d talk about my Gustavo read in more depth but given he was so obstinate as to argue with Pine about Pine’s own game it is possible he's just a newb with an under-developed worldview. I’m resetting that slot to a Null lean scum at the moment since I think I should be able to sort Andy out.

Still have my 3rd darkhorse scum read but waiting on the thing I was waiting on last night there. So it will remain a mystery until I get movement.

@Andy

- Good to see you my friend. Last we talked you were retired from Mafia. More time in life now for it? Also … your predecessor looked very newb scum to me so if you are indeed Town with me here show me the obv Andy Towniness before you start bread loafing around.

@Chicakdee

– When you get back if you aren’t already planning I’d like your gut best four or five scum suspects.

@Flubber

– Why in 367 did you not specifically point out who is not “in pursuit of other reads”? I see you’ve said Ausuka looks worst of those on you … does that me you think she wasn’t looking for reads outside of you? I need to look at Button’s game again to see how you reacted to votes there because a 3 player wagon Day 1 of a Large game hardly seems like it absolutely merits “Must be scum here” from the votee.

Davesaz

– Any reason you just ignored the question in 319?

@Inferno

– You do get that having more than 20 posts in a 48 hour period is not something to be proud of, right? This will veer into MD territory but spam / meme posting is a huge part of the problem with the MS culture and a big reason for the poor Town performances in the last few years. I mean part of me wants to quote my post from the only game I ever replaced out of due to spamming and the fact that those I pointed out as culpable for ruining the environment of the game had a disproportionate amount of scum compared to the population of the game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Magna, our thoughts are lining up a lot right now. I don't know that I have enough to really have 4 or 5 scumspects. I have more town reads than scum reads at the moment, but I will absolutely check in with this as my reads form more.

Even if you don't have solid reads per see ... just let me see some pure gut reaction scum reads as soon as you can. I know postgame of TheList we had the discussion where I encouraged you to follow your gut given how nicely it worked there. It is indeed early I just wanted to see what you came up with here.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Inferno

- In regards to 449 I understand your point of view but I have a strong opinion that post count has absolutely nothing to do with content provided. Heck I would argue that I have more readable and parseable content than several of the top 5 posters in this game despite not having a high post count. I don't think it is automatically anti-Town to be a hyper poster as long as you

A. understand that page count can be an anti-Town barrier just as much if not moreso than the wall-posting
B. there is nothing inherently wrong with someone only posting 3 to 5 times in a 24 hour period as long as said posts have readable content.

So when you called out all players under 20 posts as needing to provide content you appeared to be using an arbitrary post count threshold instead of a content threshold. Which I found problematic.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I’m still slotting Flubber as potential scum. Still unsure that his explanation that he used a poor language choice in regards to the whole Rask “coasting” post or that it was potentially scummy enough to bring up as a possibility but not worth voting early on. I find generally that Town are less concerned with how their votes are perceived and scum generally work harder at justifying their votes (or lack thereof). Additionally 445 and 446 feel like a side-step … suddenly its not that Ausuka has no other reads but “she is the worst”. In a set of three people someone will always have the lowest amount of reads. The question is whether Ausuka was pursuing other reads at all. My impression – she was and is. And even the suggestion that “PT Slipping” is a thing to scumread someone for is suspect given I know Flubber has played in games and has to know that Mafia PTs are standard.

But time to vote my darkhorse read now that he’s finally answered the questions I had outstanding for him …

VOTE: Davesaz

I’ve been suspicious of him since 124 which is a bunch of words that are mostly empty fence sitting (I find this odd but from Player X it is normal) with a profii scum reads evidenced but no accompanying vote. In general his posting is vague and non-committal. 459 I think illustrates that. And his self-meta explanation is no excuse for not being willing to give opinions (even early ones … the game has to get going with something) while being quick to criticize others for a perceived lack of opinion. Overall his ISO is mostly waffling back and forth on most issues with a few small Town or scum reads. I don’t see someone looking to find scum. Thus my vote.

Note to self – if Sky ever flips Town review 479 to 489 for possible scum.

Elbirn can join my soft Town reads as of 507.

--

@HitAlt

– It would be totes cool if you would, you know, actually explain your Chickadee read because I’m finding it a bit odd.

@Anyone not theWorst

– If you have a Town read on Brass please clue me in on why. Because 519 pretty much says his read on Sky is for low content to post ratio and after looking at brass in ISO there is way too much fluff for me not to thinks that some cogdis at work.

@xyzzy

– I’m troubled by your catchup formula that does nothing to directly organize your reads. I should not have to take detailed notes to understand who you Town or Scum read. I feel like you are trying to hide behind the links as opposed to being transparent. Who are your current Town and scum reads?

@Inferno

– While you may not understand Andy and my history it would be very suspect if he wasn’t cagey about trusting me this early. We’ve played many games together and he’s firsthand seen my scum game from both sides of the fence enough to have a healthy paranoia Day1. He was one of the partners in the game that won me this banner. If you want an entertaining story ask him about Black Lanterns. In fact if he (who knows me better than I think the rest of the game combined) was solid on me as Town right now I’d think he was scum trying to buddy me. So feel free to prod on Flubber and Profii and others but don’t expect anything solid out of him on me until at least tomorrow.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey I’m back … had a crazy weekend …

@Taly

– Thanks for replacing in. I have a couple of questions for you.

So you just discarded all your reads as of 683 because you didn’t like how people reacted to your entrance? Are you telling me all the work you did in your “First 9” catch-up was so flimsy as to just be discarded because you replaced a slot under pressure and people didn’t immediately give you replacement halo Town read?

In 640 you asked me about having Townreads. Do you think it is problematic to not have Townreads stated 24 hours or so into the game? If so why should I be Town reading you given your predecessor committed to basically at most 1 or 2 reads his entire tenure? If not why ask the question in the first place?

Finally based on your only scum read in 641 and the sparse mentions of Sky in 640 am I to take it that the entirety of your scum read on the lowest hanging fruit in the game is for the use of LAMIST?

--

May move my vote back to Flubber pending Taly’s responses above.

Continue to like Elbirn’s takes and he’s bumped up to a solid Town read for me after 627.

Magna.
Plum's birthday is today.
Man that brings me back YEARS on this site. :c

Now that is a blast from the past … Plum … those were good times Mr. Baker

@Taly/Hit--both of you guys can fairly capably read me (and MoI may or may not be able to literally look into my soul).

Reminder to everyone

– I end up dead tomorrow morning this should absolutely be one the first stops on your “Let’s talk to those most likely to kill MoI”. After Echo Bay I think scum theworst becomes obvious to me by Day 2 “worst” case (ha, I kill me).

[MagnaofIllusion]

Just a quick post here to say that Taly's responses I want to digest more in depth but I'm satisfied enough (combined with his general reads at least not being significantly different than mine) that I'm going to ...

VOTE: Flubber

MoI, I'm reading from your most recent post that you can't trust the town to get an easy read on the worst later in the game. Can you expand more on why that is?

Um, no. Here's the backstory to why I say scumTheWorst will be obvious to me early Day 2 worst case -

Unless he's an alt or has other alts we've played one game together. Echo Bay Grits (run by xyzzy in fact). I replaced late Day 1 in a game where everyone is a 1-Shot per day Dayvig. My slot had already fired. I had been minimally following along and had already identified theWorst as likely scum. In my replace in I called four scum (there had been I think 2 scum flips and like 20 Town flips at that point) and three of them (Taly, theWorst, Ico) were scum of some flavor. Night 1 both theWorst and Taly's team shot me.

Unlike there we will not have flips to work with until the start of Day 2. By that point I'll have a full day of theWorst posting and flips to parse and am pretty confident if he's scum I'll have a handle by then if I'm still alive. TheWorst is well aware of the this fact. Thus why my death puts him on the short list of people to pursue regardless of where my read was stated on Day 1. Taly's team shot was not driven by him but by a partner so I don't see the linkage being quite as strong there.

What is your theWorst read BTW?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey

Andy

… first let me say Happy Birthday to you! Also as an aside sometime out of game you need to fill me in on the full story regarding Plum and 2017 … I am definitely out of the loop and feel like there is something very cool there I missed out on in Bakerland.

On to the topic of HitAlt – while part of me would be happy to wagon on policy. I mean I have had my fill of hidden alts who act inscrutable, arrogant and needlessly opaque about their thoughts and almost Outed from the signups when I saw HitAlt join. Reading 729 almost pushed me to it. But I know my absolute disdain for hidden alts is completely clouding my judgement on whether HitAlt is scummy or just playing a dumb game behind the mask of an alt. Can you say that you honestly that you aren’t just turned off by his posting style as opposed to seeing scum intent? If so I’ll happily devote some time to a detailed read on HitAlt.

--

@Taly

– I’m not sure how much depth you are looking for in my response to you.

First off the answer that I’m least happy with is your answer to the “Townreads” query from me. I know you aren’t Dave. However that whole answer feels like a sort-of meandering tour. You really sort of sidestepped the whole issue of why you asked in the first place if having Townreads in the first 24 hours isn’t unreasonable. Frankly the whole question was driven by the way you opened the question to me in the first place. The “Ugh” insinuated that somehow there was an expectation that I should have more to say about Town. Which I think would be pretty damn odd for the first 24 hours of the game regardless of how much a player normally gives Townreads. Which what little direct experience with me you have should have suggested I’m much more a scum-read driven player.

My followup to you is this – how much game-solve should you expect from a brand new player in a Large game where there is a pretty sizeable group of players who seem well acquainted with each other? I had communication before the game even finished signups with Pine in which he confirmed to me Sky was a completely new account and not an alt. That upon replacing in you immediately started scum-reading a completely raw player didn’t set well with my gut.

What do I think of profii – I don’t per-se. He’s in my deep null pool at the moment (other members included xyzzy and HewhoSwims). There’s a bit of chummy “be friends” from him that I find reminiscent of Firebringer and thus want to dismiss. His posting really just reads as “there”. I’d really have to give him a deep ISO dive to move him in either direction as it stands. And I have other irons in the fire right now.

Since he appears to be in your Town pool why don’t you give me some wordage behind that? Thanks.

--

@Magna: so you’re going to base your entire read on The Worst based on a single previous game where you called him correctly?

Sounds like a 7for7 to me.

Um where did I say that at all? This feels a bit oddly parsed. I think theWorst as scum is a pretty reasonable to achieve read. I do read games on site I don’t participate in. The game example was meant to illustrate directly why if I died overnight theWorst should be at the top of the suspect list.

Do you think that’s scummy Inferno?

--

Yes, that's him, and yes, he routinely denies his alts are him until they go out of use.

Are you saying Gustavo is an alt of Robbnova? If so I really need to think about my read on Gust knowing that it was him because bad reactionary play was his only playstyle and I need to filter some of the bullshit Gustavo was peddling through that filter. Also I need to recalibrate that my thoughts he was somewhat experience challenged if he is an alt.

--

seconded tho Hit is like a 50% Elli-level bad d1 lynch

Yeah … no. Hidden alts by nature get absolutely no benefit of the doubt regarding whether they should get a Day 1 pass even if they are acting scummy. Hell I would argue no players should frankly but that’s neither here not there to this particular discussion.

Why would you even float this ducking?

[MagnaofIllusion]

If you guys can get HitAlt to a hammer range, I would also hammer there.

@Inferno, who is the scum engineering this flubber wagon?

Is there anyone you would not hammer if they got to L-1? I know that sounds a little funny but you seem awfully focused on hammering players as opposed to focusing on really digging into your scum suspects. No response to dramonic's refutation of your "no followup" point?

[MagnaofIllusion]

HitAlt

- This will be my last attempt to directly interact with you if you ignore this like the other attempts.

If you are Town then the Show Don't Tell principle is going to be a hurdle you as an Alt probably can't overcome without busting your alt. You can say all you want how great a scum-hunter you are and how effective your methods are but given you have a single game on this Alt. So all the arrogance of your tone falls flat.

"Tricksy traps" only work when you have well established credibility to use them. You don't. Thus I agree with the assessment from a bunch of players here that your "honey pot" looks from the outside like you are backtracking. Intellectually I get that you think a Sky Town flip indicts the quick early wagon in some manner - I agree but still include you as one of the indicted. But the manner in which you "generate content" by pure posturing means a reasonable Town player can come to the conclusion that you are scummy because you acknowledge you are drawing negative attention by playing like you do ... you are the only one with the power to change that and like NotMafia you apparently stubbornly refuse to do so.

And 847 actually looks like the closest thing to flailing I've seen this thread. That combined to the Appeal the Authority "Mathdino said I did well" (who the f*ck cares what Mathdino said about your game) is pushing me to move my vote.

I would have in this post if I didn't think Flubber was scum trying to lurk out a counter-wagon and letting you dig your own grave. So in my head I keep my vote on Flubber who I think is scum.

But you are testing my willpower.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, now that I have some time a grab-bag of responses since 785.

@Magna: You say that you will be able to read scum!TW solely on the idea of whether you die at night, based on a single previous experience in a game.

I cut the rest of this off because the whole premise here is so completely wrong there is no point in addressing the rest. I don’t know if you specifically have misread this in an attempt to undermine me or just have taken a left turn at Albuquerque in parsing what I said. Honestly given I have a light Town read on you given your early posting I’m not going to fret too much on which but be as clear as possible.

I never said I would read theworst based on whether I died a Night. I have said two distinct things.

1. I think duckling is a pretty easy scum read after some flips and thus feel I will be able to get a good handle on his being Town / Scum by early Day 2. This is based on a game of direct interplay where I easily sniffed him out on a quick skim upon replacement and reading other games on site that I did not play in.
2. That if I die credence should be given that theworst feels I might be able to soul read him and thus has more motivation than most of this thread (I think Andy is the only other player who would be more generally motivated to kill me based on past experience even if my reads this game are off). Me not dying N1 does not mean he’s Town and I don’t see why you somehow got to that conclusion from what I said.

Maybe this is more of the kind of thought process you showed early on with Elbirn’s scum claim.

--

profii's not a strong townread, partially because my read on him is meta.

I’ll keep this in mind. I did a quick review of his ISO in the game you mentioned and while nothing stood out to me immediately I will need to really commit to reading in depth both here and there if I choose to go the meta route.

--

I kinda just want to sheep MoI this game

I want to ask … why? You don’t strike me as someone who likes logical / wallpost players like me.

--

@profii

– You keep mentioning how the Flubber and HitAlt wagons don’t share commonality of voters. What I do want to know is what this means to you and who you are scum-reading. Your posts of late don’t really say much on that accord.

@Andy

– Glad to be of help with my profii thoughts. Were you referencing EP’s Laundry game in regards to trouble spots? If so I’m going to go re-read because I help review that set-up and did follow along as it ran.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I think it's a dumb term because it makes no sense

You could not be more wrong and this whole "Terminology is bad" I keep seeing floated is at best short sighted.

Vanity wagons can be analyzed for significant alignment information value depending on the game-state two days down the line. I've caught numerous scum over the years hanging out on a singleton wagon and doing nothing to progress the game otherwise.

Personally I'd lynch Brass regardless of all the meta testimony I have gotten because this is by far not the first bad, bad post that has does nothing to find scum but does lots to buddy up to players I've seen from him.

--

Not a bunch of time ... busy holiday period for me.

Keeping my vote on Flubber. That whole last "Oh, I don't feel comfortable having HitAlt at L-2 ... nevermind vote" two step smells like posturing. It doesn't jibe with his "HitAlt would be an acceptable lynch regardless" stance he floated earlier.

@Rask

- You are not the only one who has been waiting all game for HitAlt to do anything other than Appeal to Repetition on his scum suspects. And while I am not there yet on Duckling I can see where you are coming from on the possible WhiteKnighting front. Also waiting for the last second to wagon people is stupid as all it is likely to do is potentially cause excess claims or a deadline no-lynch.

@HitAlt

- While I'm not sure you are particularly a highly likely to hit scum lynch I'm not really feeling like I should bother fighting it either. Your "I can't be more ProTown" is weaksauce. I appreciate the specific response and if I had time I'd go in depth about the things I agree with / like about it and those I don't. But I don't.

@Andy

- Got any other suspects beyond HitAlt Holy Warrior you can share as the day draws close to the end. I'd like to mull over what you feel you see that I may not.

[MagnaofIllusion]

This is probably my main computer time for the weekend so I’ll try to make the most from it. I will say I will keep an eye on the thread and phone post a vote if I need to move as deadline nears. I will say if I end up moving it will be to dramonic over Hitalt. While some of the points being made about dram are bad (Taly’s 1043 in particular is reviving my scum lean on that slot … replacing a slot doesn’t magically make scummy posting of the prior slot holder disappear and insisting to be read only from your own posting aka Replacement Haloing I think is suspect) but Inferno has made some valid observations (top of which is his analysis that Dram’s pairing of Duckling and HitAlt as partners makes no sense). The one thing eating at the back of my mind is all the WIFOM (“Why would scumHitAlt do that?”) language I see flying to clear HitAlt. It’s suspect because no-one is answering the question of “Why would TownHitAlt play as he is?” also because the answer to both is bad play and that’s NAI. If I’m wrong on my read and HitAlt is scum at least one of those Townreading HitAlt on WIFOM is scum with him.

Still feel most likely that Flubber is scum who is mostly active lurking and watching counter-wagons form to save his ass. Either HitAlt of Dram flips Town and he should be Vigged / Lynched / Whatever It Takes as soon as possible.


--

As town or as scum?
I mean we know each other real well but from my chair I don't think we have any special meta tells.
I'm just playing pretty close to the chest here and realize that you're one of those people I can't just sort out in a day sort of things.
I have a healthy respect for your play and what you are capable of.

A scum clearly. Why would you ever think I would be suggesting Town Andy has a reason to kill me overnight? That’s odd parsing. Your last line here is exactly why I think scum you would have a vested interest in getting rid of me N1 regardless of my play.

Oh hi drealmerz didn't see you there.

Is this actual knowledge or are you just playing a game with HitAlt here? Because HitAlt being Dreal would be very helpful in assessing his play.

--

I get into 1v1s a lot... usually as town, though. I have a long history of 1v1s and even 1v2s and 1v3s...

I often catch scum with this method.

You probably need to provide some support for this because I find people who claim that they 1v1 to catch scum tend to be either greatly overstating or scum.

I'm going to need my high-townreads to lmk if I'm tunneling dramonic too hard because I will piledrive that slot and feel little-to-no remorse if it flips town at this point in time.

Considering how ick your vote change to Dram is I would reward you with rope for this statement if Dram does end up getting lynched as a deadline push and is Town. Doubly so if Flub would be revealed as scum due to Vig or Investigation action..

If he’s scum then my concerns evaporate in a cloud of floral scented happiness.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Quick phone post ...

If Dram turns out to be Town kill all three of Theworst / Inferno / Brass with Fire.

At least two would be scum looking to lynch an uncountered fairly powerful role on for sketch as heck reasons. Worst first since saying “lynch regardless of claim if scummy” which is 100% scum beneficial play. This is a Large game. It will go on for many days and not giving any thought to the potential damage to Town from mislynching a claimed role is at best terrible play. So fear mongering while saying it is role madness and likely many alternative means to assess Dram’s alignment exist is suspect.

Will have computer posted thoughts later.

[MagnaofIllusion]

yeah ok that's reasonable. I'm not a mechanics wizard.

Says this.

Still keeps vote where it is.

You are scum aren’t you Duck?

[MagnaofIllusion]

And I have been on the brunt end of this before lol.
So yeah.
@MoI: And if HitAlt is Town...?
Your statement can be applied to any claimed PR lynch on D1, ever.
And besides, there’s about 0 chance the lynch is happening now anyways. So what’s with the shade?

This post gets special attention because I want to specifically show the point where my early Townread on your slot was revoked and I want everyone to not lose this post in the spamming we have had lately. I think this post shows a significant amount of scum not Town perspective. I’ve been giving Inferno some leeway on what I thought might be innocent misreading (the one that most looms to mind is the “You are reading worst solely on being Nightkilled”) but that ship has sailed.

Let’s analyze each element of this post which I find filled with scum red-flags.

First let’s address the “And if HitAlt is Town” straw-man element. This is a pure discrediting tactic and one that doesn’t bear any resemblance to things I have actually said. I have not pushed HitAlt as scum. Nor have I suggested that claims should not be examined. Yet the whole thrust of this post is to suggest I’m willing to wagon HitAlt regardless of claim.

Now let’s deal with the logical follow-up element – “Your statement can be applied to any claim”. This is another soft discredit element. Of course my statement can. Never said or inferred it could not. However Inferno ignores the important element of analyzing claims – that powerful roles have a much higher downside if a mislynch occurs than non-powerful ones. Jailkeeper, even one with an oddball Night restriction, is a potent Town role. In a quasi role-madness game a scum JK is much more likely to get caught fake-claiming actions. Thus even if Dramonic is scum he’s very constrained to being able to justify any actions he gets to take (and frankly given the likelyhood of verification methods available to Town he is likely to be caught before N2 if he is scum) with reads. So if he even makes it to Night 2 he will have to provide reads that support his claimed action that have to stand up to scrutiny and cross confirmation. Yet Inferno paid zero consideration to this in his push to say “You have to lynch him he’s scummy and scum can have PRs”. The upsides to lynch Dram as scum when he’s a dead man walking if he is are far outweighed by the downsides of mislynching his claim as Town. And make no mistake – if he is Town that’s a real claim while if he is scum fake-claiming he’s absolutely doomed. If Dram had claimed something like 1-Shot Vouyer or whatnot he hangs as the mislynch downside is minimal. But he didn’t and Town has to consider the possibility they are wrong and weigh the risks / rewards ratios. In a Large game it makes little sense to lynch Dram based on his claim D1 no matter how strong your read is.

Lastly we end with “Why the shade” which is a double whammy.

First it is exactly the kind of buzzwording people like Taly have been decrying. The suspicions I posted 1225 are direct suspicions based on scum motivations. Yet Inferno seeks to handwave and minimize those suspicions by suggesting I’m not scum-hunting but “shading” him.

Secondly look again at 1225 and then look at that sentence and notice the huge disconnect. In 1225 my suspicion of Inferno (and worst / brass also) is based on a hypothetical – Dram being Town and being flipped in the future. Inferno is dead-set that Dram is scum. Town Inferno who believes as strongly as he does in Dram-scum shouldn’t really have such a reaction to 1225. After all I’m only positing he’s scummy in a scenario Town-Inferno doesn’t think actually exists. So why attempt to discredit my gut-reaction to that push when he thinks Dram will never flip Town? However … scum who feels they got caught making a scummy push on what they know to be a mislynch have every reason to defend themselves in a scenario that should not factor into the actual game-state if he was Town and actually reading Dram as scum.

TL-DR Summary – 1230 is full to the brim of scum-oriented posting and Inferno is now out of my Town reads.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Other thoughts …

Don’t like Elbirn’s 1071 from a standpoint of a reason to Town-read Taly. If Taly is emotional as he says then being suspected for a predecessor as scum is frustrating and just as likely to cause that sort of emo-posting. It is NAI and Elbrin calling it Town is just as bad as Dram calling it scum.

@Inferno

– So the whole Xyzzy wagon was scummy (1126)? Why is there no follow-up with you about this. In fact you call Elbirn suspect in that post but further posts like 1153 are not talking to him like you scum read him.

Profii gets the first bit of Town credit for 1159 and seeing exactly what I was seeing.

@Taly

– what was the purpose of 1090 again? I asked you to prove that you consistently caught scum using 1v1. What you gave me here was an isolated number of games spanning years that don’t really show that happening to my eye. I don’t particularly care if 1v1ing is in your Town meta either. I don’t doubt it is. However your self-awareness is such I’d expect someone with your level of experience to be able to integrate that into your scum game. So it is really NAI for you. I'm left wondering why you chose to spend the time on that post if it wasn't to show success at catching scum with 1v1s explicitly.

Brass is solidly in my scum pool. Consistent abdication of responsibility for his votes under the guise of sheeping ( 1097 being one such examples) and lack of actual game-solving from his slot don’t read anything like Town to me.

@Andy

– in regards to your comments in 1184 …

I did not call your wagon on HitAlt policy. I asked you to make an assessment if you were not compromised by HitAlt’s play. There’s a pretty clear distinction there and that you are pretending not to see it is troubling. Also I’m interested in you thinking I’m scum just parking on an easy mislynch. What should I be pushing more on Flub? He’s active lurking and beyond repeatedly pointing that out I’m struggling to deal with the 10+ pages a day. This isn’t a Geriatric and the only reason I am here is because Pine is great. So if you expect a huge wall-case on Flubber while keeping up with the volume of posting the only thing I can say to you is the following –

[MagnaofIllusion]

I was gonna take the time to write a case on all the bullshit MoI just spewed at me.
But then I realized I didn’t feel like it tonight and I’m gonna have plenty of time to do it D2.

How quaint. Rhetoric as opposed to actually refuting the "bullshit".

Glad you had time to spend all that time writing an "outraged" bunch of empty words rather than actually trying to suggest where I was wrong in my assessment. ++Town points for the righteous anger I'm sure it will play well.

[MagnaofIllusion]

There's a difference in tone between frustrated scum and indignant, self righteous town. I'm not gonna act like I'm deadlocked onto a town-taly, but that post reads as the latter to me.

Well I'd discuss the issue with you but given I think tone reading is generally relies on reading the majority as Town when they are in fact Town by the way Mafia works I don't think we'd get anywhere on agreement.

Taly's clearly experienced enough that crafting that as scum would not be hard at all. Heck he himself has stated his Scum and Town ranges are very overlapping.

But hey ... you do you ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

See this is why I said Dram would be sorted sooner rather than later in almost Role Madness game.

Ok since we have like 5 pages in less than 3 hours and I've been only able to phone skim you are going to have to wait for responses to anything if you asked.

Andy is Town and is a bad vote. If you have yours there move along.
Rask might be also be but I'd really need someone to come forward and confirm something for me. And before asking for that to happen I need to look at the Normal rules because what I have no clue whether what I am thinking happened is possible under the new standards.

So later tonight on that end.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You all should really sheep me on Andy
And I swear I have a really tight case on this, it’s just long enough that it’s going to be easier to do it at a computer than mobile.

Andy is Town. Don’t waste your effort.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well now that I had some time and was able to research the Wiki and the Normal Game thread in MD I see there is no role that can explain what I thought in regards to Rask. At this point whoever gave Rask fruit is on my suspicion list. More on that in a minute

With a Mafia flip and no Town death I think this game is ripe for some information drop and setting up long Term PoE so I’m going to drop what I can provide –

I am an Odd Night Loyal Fruit Vendor. You can see my breadcrumb in 439 where the first letter of each sentence at the start spells LOYAL FRUIT VEND. It would have been too unwieldy to add ODD NIGHT to that as I could not even get the full Vendor out when crumbing without it being so awkwardly phrased I looked like a moron. You can also see I kept prodding Andy about his Baker status to see if he would pick up on me crumbing but he didn’t acknowledge it.

I chose Andy last Night because I was very worried about him replacing Gustavo who had picked up suspicion for his overtly aggressive play and might have playstyle redeemed a scum slot. I was also concerned with what I saw as soft attempts to suggest I was scum without committing.

So he’s Town. Don’t bother pushing him. I’d rather you lynch me to prove he’s Town than lynch him at this stage.

I suspect that the person who gave Rask fruit may be scum due to both of us acting last Night. There’s no Duplicator or other role that could have duplicated my action onto Rask. And yesterday I considered it likely that there would be an Even Night alternate role to mine in the setup. Given two fruit were given out last Night I think odds are reasonable that the other vendor is a Mafia member. I admit it also possible they are just a regular Fruit Vendor but I’d really doubt any other claims that have a modifier like mine.

I also think it is a 50/50 shot that whoever killed Dram is a Serial Killer. Dram’s role PM specifically says the Mafia need to eliminate “opposing Factions” instead of Town. Also that shot, like his lynch, is very high risk for a Vig.

Now I’ll dig into the pages …

[MagnaofIllusion]

Personally after 1406 I don’t see myself not voted parking on Chicka’s lynch today unless someone literally drops a guilty (which I don’t think is happening). Yup I see the “Scum would never claim that” WIFOM floating in the thread. Facts are – Mafia lost a powerful role N1 and failed in their mission to kill Town. I think the operative word to describe how they are feeling is like “OMGWTFBBQWEZZZFUCKED”. Chicka has been on people’s lists of acceptable lynches since midday D1. So either she’s scum making a Hail Mary claim (gut with the whole “Lynch me today, maybe tomorrow or never” line she dropped) or Town who is going to never be Nightkilled and be a source of doubt the rest of the game. If she is Town and Vengeful now is the best time to put that ability to the test since we already are +1 on the kill cycle.

--

I just figured before hitalt says I was attacked and not killed so I'm SK, I'd claim.

I am also intentionally not saying whether I have further shots to activate and will continue to refuse to do so.

For the record if we do not have a Vig this is the Serial Killer. Way too much worry about being outed by HitAlt which speaks to a defensive mindset which a non-Mafia non-Town player has to have.

--

Not in-depth until I know who the Vig is.
But there's a likelihood for two guilties if I'm correct.

Well this is the point where I am going to point blank say you cried wolf Day 1 and you are out of goodwill on “Teehee look how gambitty I am”.

If you honestly think you have effectively two guilties then you should be pushing the issue to the fricken wall with one Mafia dead.

--

Because...?
So while you sit there and give reads with nothing behind them, I’ll just go ahead and put together the association case that incriminates you and your partner, m’kay?

If you happen to be Town maybe instead of quick responding to everything with stupid posts perhaps read the whole page you are posting on. It would help make you look less bad in the future.

[MagnaofIllusion]

And for the record - things getting down to the wire in the game with no obvious scum suspects left around?

Someone who hard pushed Dram AFTER the claim is scum. Because there was no way the lynch was going through after that claim due to all the reasons stated yesterday. So easily within reason that scum took that window to hardpress for Town cred by pushing for Dram to be lynched when it was completely safe to do so.

If I recall correctly that was basically Worst / Inferno / Brass.

So if the game somehow gets to like Day 6 or 7 with maybe 1 Mafia left don't forget this post people.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'll be doing a catch-up today ... my life is busy and this thread is too active so probably I'm just going to end up doing a State of the Game post unless there are specific questions I have missed in my brief phone skimming.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'll be doing a catch-up today ... my life is busy and this thread is too active so probably I'm just going to end up doing a State of the Game post unless there are specific questions I have missed in my brief phone skimming.

You know when I said this earlier ... it was a lie. My wife's inlaws are not leaving til Monday so the rest of my day is stuck hanging with her cousin's husband doing guy things so the girls can got shop at teacher stores and wherever else they go to do stuff.

Monday night is now my projected timeframe to have any sort of free time at all.

[MagnaofIllusion]

First up a quick state of the game analysis. BTW over 20 pages in 3 days is stupid and those of you spamming single liners make this game impossible to keep up with. Whatever has been said at least Taly is posting significant content with his many, many posts.

PoE is going to be a powerful tool going forward. I’m going to sort the playerlist into pools based on where my head is at based on the Day 1 and how claims have flowed.

LockTown

– I will not question these ever. This is where I go based on my Role PM but no-one (including me) cares since everyone says that.

Andrius – N1 means he cannot be scum or Serial Killer. No ifs and or buts for me. You want to fight me on this be my guest but I will fight you to the death if you make any move to lynch Andy.

Chickadee – Simply due to Andy’s statements. I know him well enough he is not going to do something stupid related to his role and declare her Town on a mistaken basis.

Solid Town

– Between claims and play Day 1 I have enough faith these players are Town I’d fight a wagon on them today and for at least a few days going forward at worst.

Rask – I do not believe he’s cleared by Aus (more on that later) but his Day 1 was enough that I see that Rask is pretty Town for me. Moves to LockTown if Aus is ever cleared.

Brass – While early on today I thought his pre-emptive Active BP claim was SK panic now that theWorst has owned up to the Dram shot I think he’s clear of being the potential Serial Killer. Still an outside chance he could be Scum looking to explain away the missing kill but between HitAlt / myself / whatever other means we have I think he will get cleared before that becomes a long term issue. Potentially a valuable clear for the WIFOM he could generate for Scum / SK with an Activated BP as a deterant for a Nightkill. His play surrounding Dram does not look like a bus to me.

HitAlt – Again the Detective claim and his interaction with theWorst says he’s very likely what he claims. Doesn’t 100% clear him but with Ausuka my best guess for the slot of Scum Investigation I’d certainly not put him in the spotlight or several days. Now if he’s alive Day 6 and keeps coming up with no results and no scum investigation role has flipped he’d be worth discussing. But that’s a ways off.

Probably Town

–

Taly – I have some reservations about Day 1 “no-one is working with me” narrative but that may be chocked up to playstyle. I feel good enough with the nature of his posting that if he is scum he’ll be outed eventually by his ISO. And while hyper-activity is not necessarily Pro-Town there is enough readable content in his ISO I’d not lynch there anytime soon.

Inferno – I think the likelihood he bussed Dram is pretty low (although not as low as Brass). I think likely his whole need to call everyone who disagrees with him scum and his “I’m an IC” boasting today is probably bad play but if it gets to endgame with no obvious suspects in sight I think this would be a prime place to hang. Also want to add his claim is not alignment indicative. It might come in handy later on when it might be possible to prove he visited someone who wasn’t the nightkill but otherwise is a big fat Meh.

Needs to Die Sooner or Later

Ausuka – I’m pretty sure she’s a scum Fruit Vendor of some sort. As such I don’t clear Rask at all on the claim. Especially given the other amount of apparent Town clearing mechanics (my role / HitAlt / what Andy has going) and the fact that I’m limited but she’s not. Her Dayplay also could certainly be from scum. I personally don't see the process by which she chose Rask but I can't say it is scummy either.

Likely Serial Killer but I really Don’t Care

TheWorst – Sorry Duckling but I know you are 98% likely to not be Town. The presence of a Detective (even a scum one) is a nod to the likely existences of an SK. The Dram shot is a very strong indicator that he’s not a Vig – given no other claims Day 1 a Serial Killer has an overwhelming need to take out a Jailkeeper regardless of the JK's alignment before the SK can be blocked from making kills. Add in his Day 1 cagey play and his response to my “You are a SK again” early game banter and I’m sure that’s the case. And his posts since HitAlt outed him along the lines of “I’m going to kill everyone who suspects me” / “I might as well be a IC” are straight out of Ducklings SK playbook from Echo Bay Grits where he kept trying to frame the discussion around him being a BP meant he was obv Town. And 1885 is a textbook example of communicating to the scum team where to shoot as the PoE noose is already getting tight and he can’t have duplication with scum on his kills. Worst was originally my N1 vend which I heavily leaned on with my “he’ll be sorted Day 2” language but Andy had me questioning enough that I thought it better to Townbin or damn Andy earlier.

And I don’t really care. He’s already lost. He’s been outed and can’t make questionable kills into claimed Town roles. Two kills in a Night and both are very pro-scum? He eats rope? 3 or 4 scum dead and game isn’t over? He eats rope. Frankly you just lynch him the Day before expected LYLO even if you think he is 99.9995% Vig. That’s well down the line and if he’s a Vig he’ll be dead well before that. So no point in discussing it other than having Duckling claim his shot every Night in the opening post the next morning.

Who is left?

Elbirn, Sky, Xyzzy, HeWho, and Profii.

Just on Day 1play I’d be least inclinded to lynch Elbirn and then probably Xyzzy. I have not read through Taly’s cases in depth so until I get the chance (upcoming post).

Frankly I think if you carpet bombed / cleared this section and lynched Ausuka and then theWorst when the game isn’t over with Aus’s hanging you’d have a victory. Given that I think the Worst pretty much has to shoot in this pool or be hung that’s very feasible.

Now onto “current events” …

[MagnaofIllusion]

Can I say how frustrating reading the first 15 pages of today was? Frankly I’ve been tempted to replace out because dealing with so much deadwood in those pages was painful. The actual content in those pages was made almost unreadable by all the spamming. I’ll say it again - spamming is far worse than walling.

Also – stop all the spam related to Normal rules. It isn’t helpful and just makes wading through to get to actual content that much harder. This means you Andy!

1992 BTW is all anyone should need to see that Duckling is a SK. He’s giving himself wiggle room to shoot people who can out him considering HitAlt’s claimed ability has no further teeth for worst.

Elbirn’s replace-out is very inconvenient. I really think it is bad play to lynch him unclaimed even if it risks the replacement halo effect. People need to remember that there is an unclaimed Loud role that may well be very important to Town and I don’t want us lynching it because frustration with replacing takes over.

Also in the eventuality that Ausuka is the Scum Vendor I think 1361 screams that there is at least one scum (and probably 2) non-SK on the Dram wagon.

As of 1741 count me as preferring a Sky lynch over a Elbirn lynch at this stage. That series of posts is a whole bunch of noise “Maybe it is X, maybe it is Y” with a hop on Elbirn that pretty much is driven by self-preservation and Elbirn being the likeliest wagon. And the cozying up to worst looks like “Don’t shoot me Mr SK I’m totally your pal” from someone in the only viable Pretend-To-Be-A-Vig pool.

In fact

VOTE: Sky

@Taly

– I’ll go over your read posts on Sky / Elbirn / Xyzzy / HeWhoSwiums in depth but say I’d much prefer a Sky lynch especially with Elbirn’s replace out which I think is Page Count driven IMO.

Also I think you are dead wrong in your assessment on scum wanting the Serial Killer dead. We are in a great position right now with one Mafia dead and the SK basically exposed. Both the Mafia and the Serial Killer should want to shoot confirmed / likely Town because body count is greatly working against them.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Carpet bombing's always fun.
If you think TW is probably SK do you think the odds of one of brass or hit being scum BP or scum detective are possibly worth consideration?

Of course it is worth considering those possibilities. I think of the two Brass stands less chance than HitAlt since scum already had a protective style role in Dram. But those are the kind of conjecture that needs to happen several days down the line. And consider that both have at least two other ways to possibly clear them (myself and Andy for HitAlt / Brass has all three although Hit's clears are not necessarily perfect since I believe Detectives only tell when someone has tried to kill and a Mafia member could just not be sending the kill order).

I'm roughly at Elbirn ?= Profii > Xyzzy > HeWho > Sky in that last grouping

Profii again please talk about your progression 1948
your response doesn't address my actual concerns

How do you think there's scum in taly/elbirn and don't feel like straightening it out but just eeeeeeh lets lynch elbirn and if town I guess sus taly
I really want to know how you're comfortable going along with taly as so whilst scumreading him

See and obviously I'm flip flopped from you almost completely here. I see Sky as the best bet with the following rough order

Sky > HeWho / Profii > Xyzzy > Elbirn

We can discuss once I get to my post to Taly tomorrow on his ISOs and what I think about his reads and conclusions on those particular players.

[MagnaofIllusion]

First to

Taly

- didn't get to my dedicated reads today due to a huge staff shortage at work today ... working on 3/8 of our normal team meant no time for lunch and review. Will try my best to get to it tomorrow.

So why are we not lynching The Worst again?
You're right on the money - we can't really leash him and we can't trust him so why are we chasing SkyGazer when an unleashable Serial Killer is threatening our game.

Like, I'm with you on the duck-is-a-serialkiller and your logic right up to you voting NOT THE SERIAL KILLER given how much damage they can cause. As you said there's been a BIT of posturing for a non-conventional shot and I don't like that given we've got targets on the backs of a few people I'd rather not see nightkilled.

Also for calling it an "eventuality" that Ausuka is scum fruit vendor you want to lynch not eventuality scum?

What are we smoking magna because if you're saying near-confirmed serial killer and that high certainty Ausuka-scumread you're throwing around why are we supposed to go for SKYGAZER over EITHER of those two?

Sincerely,

-Confused

Andy I'm being a realist here. The old MoI who had the time to grind scum into submission by massive walls of analysis over the day until they cried uncle just doesn't exist anymore. It is why I pretty much only play Geriatrics ... the pace of modern MS games is too fast and spammy for me to effectively deal with. And while I feel Aus is a Scum Vendor and worst basically a lock Serial Killer I don't think there is any momentum to get either of those lynches today. You yourself give a nod to the fact it is possible I'm wrong on Aus and Pine's thrown some ModWifom into the mix. As for Duckiling ... what can I say. I think the evidence speaks for itself. But there is a sizeable group (including your clear Chicka, BTW) who doesn't see what I do and think he's a Vig. I don't have the time to push him like I would have way back when.

Skygazer pretty much is my best for scum in the pool I think most people consider lynching in - Elbirn's slot, Xyzzy, Sky, Profi and HeWho. I will try to carve out time to make a case tomorrow.

Who is your preferred lynch Andy?

[MagnaofIllusion]

If he's town we have a good shot at this game. We really do.
But here are my biggest concerns:

1. Our "Vigilante" seems to display traits indicative of not wanting to be leashed. We're not (yet) at the point where we need to provide names but if he DOESN'T shoot in the lynchpool and/or lurkers we're gonna have words and/or rope.
2. HitAlt, the guy whose play has been defined by his role, is MIA.
3. xyzzy is MIA only in this game while posting elsewhere on-site.
4. The near-guaranteed lynch of Elbirn went up in smoke due to the replace out. Not going to say he's scum and it was a tactical replace out but MAN it was so inconvenient.

All of those concerns are valid. I think with HitAlt the proof will be in the pudding to use a different turn of phrase that convey the message you've offered on myself / Aus / worst. If I'm wrong and Worst is a Vig then that's a big ding in HitAlt's credibility and failure to continue to produce anything helpful in the days ahead would be telling.

Also I disagree on my (since I feel Aus stands a good chance of being scum) potential guilty being less useful than HitAlt's .... with a scum blocking Role already gone the odds of a false negative I think are pretty remote.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So first having a go at Taly’s Elbirn case -

Taly

I spent about half an hour going over your case on Elbirn and decided I wasn’t going to spend 2 hours putting together a wall to argue with you. So I’ll summarize my thoughts and why I’m not really swayed at all on Elbirn. I think your case can be summed up as follows.

1. Elbirn doesn’t play like you think Town should.
2. Elbirn chose to challenge those who scum-read or questioned him (Inferno, Flubber being prime examples).
3. Elbirn chose to push his own angles (xyzzy) while ignoring Dram.

That I think is your distilled case. And while I appreciate the effort I don’t see it. Frankly I think you went in with a pre-conceived notion and fit the posts to your case as opposed to the other way around. I get the feeling his push on you upon replacing in gave you a sour taste and you let that taint how you approached him. And frankly I don’t think his stance was unreasonable. I was not a fan of your early posting either.

I see Elbirn as having Town posts and being frustrated with the spammy nature of this game.

I don’t see his turn around in Inferno in 232 and HitAlt in 794 as scum motivated. Frankly I think scum have every reason to keep static reads on players who make themselves lynchable. And while you’ve called his slot scummy for ignoring the wagons on HitAlt and Flubber (one of which I have as a solid Town read and the other flipped Town) I’m not seeing only scum motivation in his reasons for doing so. Frankly if Xyzzy is Town there are tons of players who look very bad for jumping there (some of which are in your Townblock). So holding Elbirn to a higher standard than others isn’t solid play.

I mean if you want to push on that slot 507 where he downplays Dram’s playstyle perhaps to prevent pressure from forming there I could possibly see . Meanwhile his challenge to Inferno in that same post feels very Town to my eyes. But in your write-up the part that is most damning is almost an afterthought to you.

Taly

– I want you to re-read your own case from those posts on Sky. Because that on the other hand I think makes a solid bit of reasoning why Sky is scum.

--

@Andy

– Do me a favor and just don’t bother jousting with Inferno. He’s probably Town who just doesn’t understand that people not agreeing with him is not a scum-tell. I mean you probably saw all you needed to see when he thought his claimed Visitor role was somehow a counter-claim to Ducking’s “Vig” claim. We aren’t talking Spyrex here … we are talking Furculow or Chesskid.

--

trying tOoOoOoOoO haaaarrrddddd

Duckling if you aren’t a SK after posting this I don’t think we can be friends. This is just so bad.

Not convinced Pine would include 3 similar roles in this setup, but I'm not exactly an expert in his modding meta either, so I'll just say I'm skeptical.

Maybe they should (or at least the two FVs of them) target me tonight? That sure makes me a prime NK target as well, but I think that would relief many of you (those who were willing to lynch my predecessor)

You do know I’m Odd Night and Inferno’s role is effectively a VT except it can be proven by Track / Watch type roles, right Almost?

I could switch my vote to Andrius if you say the case on him is good enough.

So Andy’s confirmed Town. Was I wrong on Elbirn and Taly has it right Almost?

[MagnaofIllusion]

This is a BAD post that I’m going parse when I open up on MoI tonight.

No a bad post would be, for example, thinking a Visitor role counter-claimed a Vig claim in a Normal (which is be definition not Bastard) or calling for the Loud role to be outed when HitAlt clearing indicated he thought they were a protective.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Your predecessor already claimed ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Your predecessor already claimed ...

And I said I read nothing from before I subbed in. I'm playing by the ear here.

Yeah my sleep deprived self saw that and thought you replaced HitAlt because I’m working on 1 hour of sleep.

Ignore that.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey grabbed a quick cat nap before dinner so a few more lucid thoughts before I head to bed ...

Taly

- I agree with your assessment on Sky as possible NewbTown with one glaring flaw. In fact Day 1 I didn't give her enough pressure because of the combination of that possibility and HitAlt's bad push on Sky. However the posting that everyone is pointing out as goodposting on this last page gives the lie that Sky is not a Newb. Use of "VI" in regards to Profi shows a depth of familiarity with MS culture that doesn't come from a Newb. In fact my perception is the term Village Idiot is an artifact of past times (I remember it being in heavy use in the 2011 to 2012 era) and I think Sky's been coasting on Newb status as an alt account of an older player. Note how Sky only really "came to life" and stopped coasting after getting put in the death pool today. So I think she's a very good vote.

Brass

- Yeah Inferno's play is very surface level but remember Town can play poorly to. I think despite his derp-tunnel on me his Dram interactions look more likely to come from Town than scum. I still think he's best considered scum down the line if the game lasts too long and the death pool of (A50, Profi, Sky, Xyzzy, HeWho) isn't chock full of scum.

Andy

- I'm with you on Xyzzy's play today being a step back. While not stellar Xyzzy did seem Townish to me Day 1. Do you think scum after losing Dram would step back on their already not really loved play? Although I guess the same might be said for Profi in that I have a hard time thinking Mafia would go out of their way to antagonize Duckling who clearly can end them at Night. I have to think those two over more after a good Nights sleep.

[MagnaofIllusion]

This is what you kids call a prod-dodge.

Life is kicking me in the balls right now with no end in sight. I'll try to get caught up on reading (I assume Gamma replaced HitAlt but can't say I've even been able to phone read to see that) and refocus by tomorrow night.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So … so let’s get into this …

Also – everyone look closely at 2261 with me. Note that Sky’s logic regarding HitAlt / Gamma shows not the least bit of concern. She’s posting from the standpoint of someone who knows that Gamma’s slot isn’t scum. Note also that despite Ausuka supposedly being in her pool the only person of Sky thinks can possibly be scum in Gamma / myself / Ausuka / Andy is me. Makes no sense that if she thinks I’m scum she doesn’t consider Andy possible scum. I think this strengthens that

1. Gamma is more likely Town than scum.
2. Sky flipping scum means Ausuka is a partner she is hedging on.

Can we get more votes there please? Frankly I think the day is just dragging on because … well … with the game state and potential PoE wrecking ball Town maybe is getting complacent. If I can’t get any movement on Sky in the next 24 hours I’ll look at the available wagons and vote who I think is most likely scum from them. Personally of Profi / Xyzzy I’m leaning voting Xyzzy due to how hard Sky is pushing Profi and defending Xyzzy.

Taly

= Why are you associating effort with Town again (as seen regarding Sky in 2372)? Scum have to be putting in the effort to pretend to be Town … especially if they are in the Group of Death.

--

Why is Andy conf!Town?? And .. that's the spirit. I was gazing with surprise you TR'd the slot I replaced into..

I'm Town, mate.. but I don't expect you -in particular- to just take my word for it, and I very much understand.

Andy’s confirmed Town because he confirmed that he received fruit from me last Night. I’m a Loyal Fruit Vendor. This has already been covered to death so … yeah …

And why should I trust you at your word? Last game where I suspected you there was an AtE barrage from scum you about how I always suspect you and am always wrong. Except I wasn’t. So I expect scum you would certainly change tactics at this point. Frankly given your “Oh, I’m baiting the NK” narrative and lack of being forward with your reads if you were not Elbirn’s replacement I’d be voting you this very post.

I ain't gonna lynch the duck this game.

This also doesn’t make me think you are Town.

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I really can't agree with Andrius' "If you shoot someone unacceptable we'll lynch you" in 2343. while it's generally a good idea for a vigilante to give a shit about what the town wants, it seems like being a populist and just shooting the most scumread player every night is a good way for an SK to skate by.

Of all the things Xyzzy’s recently dropped this is the one that I think is the most troubling. It shows no acknowledgement of the game-state and the fact that forcing a suspected Serial Killer to shoot into the ever shrinking pool of PoE suspects is very powerful for Town. I don’t see this as a Town perspective.

Taly

– Do you disagree?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Phone post but I agree that we need to consolidate. Given I am getting no traction on Sky I’m moving to
xyzzy who Sky is defending.

VOTE: Xyzzy

[MagnaofIllusion]

First things first – could we stop trying to legislate how Fruit is handled aka “Popcorn claim”. If you get fruit overnight you should be thrilled to claim it in your first post. It is safe to assume that if someone’s first post of the day doesn’t have a fruit claim they didn’t get it. From there how the claims are parsed can depend on how the day plays out.

Also I am happy with my vote seeing posts from Xyzzy like 2507. He’s working to somehow justify the need for a system when it isn’t needed. It smells like scum who’s trying hard to softly undermine potential clears / muddy the waters on players getting cleared. I mean it is pretty straightforward – tomorrow there should only be one fruit claim. Two people claim? Ausuka then says “I targeted Player X” and discussion can begin on how best to handle the claim based on reads (since I don’t trust Aus to not be scum as of now). Not to mention potential for hypothetical tracker / watcher roles to confim / bust claims.

Also feel the way Xyzzy is dancing around claiming (hinting they have something worth claiming but not actively doing it even when at L-1 with deadline approaching) smells like scum waiting for the last second to fake-claim. Caught CultofAthena doing just that in The Thaw Day 1.

--

On a final note, I don’t know why there are still people calling me probscum.

Like, I’m acutely aware of the fact that my playstyle is scummy anyways

, but unless someone can actually bring a reasonable, fleshed out narrative on how my associations with dram is scum, please buzz off. And if you do, I’d love to hear it.
Because at this point I don’t even see how that accusation makes sense atp.

Also, I’ve decidedly that I’ve been using a term wrong. I’m not conftown. I’m just NARRARTIVELY IMPOSSIBLE TO BE SCUM.
Which is the same thing, but hey.

You know why people think you are possible bussing scum Inferno? Because the only people who yell loudly like you have done all today about how they can’t possibly be scum tend to flip scum. Town who feel like their player speaks for itself ... let it. This site is littered with people who have hardbussed in situations where it makes no sense to do so and then get frustrated when they don’t cruise to endgame wins. Plus the bolded above is just so bad it pains me. I mean I think you are probably Town but crap like this is why I’ve counselled confirmed Town Andy to just ignore you. If you know you are playing scummy STOP DOING IT. The only person who controls that is you.

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and how tf has HWS gone to L-2 within 2 days of my vote when there's only a fraction of the playerlist that have worked to be cohesive with me?

Step back and think about this Taly … why would a wagon spring up in direct counter to Xyzzy when the people who are working with you is small?

MOI can you case me your thoughts on Sky? I don't like compromise lynches, and it feels like xyzzy and SOMEWHAT HWS are fitting this bill tbh.

Here is the big picture for you Taly. Day 1 Sky’s posting looks very much like scum not wanting to make waves. Her suspicions, as you have noted, were all piggybacked directly from other players and in the nice safe direction that was popular at the moment of posting. That continued into Day 2 until the point where we got down to the “Pool of Death”. At which point Sky starts being more active and focuses in directly on one player – Profii. Read through her posts since she started calling Profii scum. It feels to me like someone looking at Profii’s posting and picking out what can be attacked as opposed to an honest attempt to read the slot. It smells like survivalism … she still found a PoE acceptable target but could no longer lay back on the comfy bed of “Maybe Newbie” due to the gamestate.

I’m not going to do a point by point case because frankly … I don’t have the time. But really read through that ISO and look from a high level “why is Sky acting the way they are now”. As a reminder – I think they are also a hidden Alt and thus any “Newbie” status I may have filtered my Day 1 read is completely out the door.

As for not liking compromise lynches – yeah I get where you stand but this game is in a rare gamestate Day 2 where we have a pool of very likely scum and are only compromising in that pool.

From your posts, I assume you have a light associative to Sky-Xyzzy? Or at least scumread them strongly on an independent level?

I made an assessment of xyzzy-profii unlikely to be scum together. 2376

Can you give me your read on profii? Do you see any associative with profii-Sky or profii-xyzzy that I don't see IF you scumread profii still?

Yeah I don’t tend to do strong association analysis on unflipped / uncopped players. I scum-read Sky strongest of all the pool of death. Xyzzy at the start of today was in the lower portion of that pool but I’m seeing scum intent all over the place today since they became a topic of interest.

Profi (sorry man for what I am about to say) feels like low-hanging fruit. Doesn’t make them Town but the ease with which pressure has been applied there makes me somewhat hesitant. I’m also very hesitant that my strongest scum read is pushing them.

I saw your case. While I respect your views and take them into consideration I think that there are conclusions there that are somewhat colored by your play expectations and one thing I’ve learned over the years is that alternate play methods can be confounding when logicing out associations of living players.

He, and the Mafia team, do not want each other to survive. So the Mafia wouldn't want him to last long, and TW - despite alignment - would rather survive to kill as many Mafia as possible.

Don’t take this personally Taly but this is pretty wrong.

Theworst’s only shot as a SK is to thin out Town enough that he can’t ever actually be lynched and be Dayhunting Mafia. Of course if he wants to gamethrow that’s his choice. But if he’s playing to win he absolutely doesn’t want to kill Mafia. Otherwise we drop to a single kill and people go “Whelp … time to have Duck Flambe” for the loss.

Likewise the Mafia absolutely don’t want him dead as we are in a good state as Town and the only way to reverse that is for mass Town casualties. Which translates to shooting Town until a point where the gamestate is not so dangerous via POE.

But given theWorst has a very limited pool of shots that don’t result in “Hang the SK” we can let it go for at least a couple of days until he proves he’s not a Vig with a questionable shot.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI HitAlt basically put all of his cards on the table day two and was the first to do so, and those cards seem to line up with his D1 play. I really think Hit playing the way he did day one would absolutely tank his chances of surviving as scum the more I think about it. It could be some wild gambit, but on D1 in a large game? If he was scum he'd be bound to know that that kind of softclaiming gambit would get him sorted sooner rather than later. As for Andrius, he has been a huge town read of mine since day one and he's semi-clear from your fruit. If you were to flip scum, I highly doubt you'd risk the gambit of trying to clear your scum partner - I think it's much more likely that scum-MoI would want to spread wifom over a strong town player. So right now that narrows it down to yourself and Ausuka (going on the assumption that one of the investigatives is scum), and I've stated why I think Ausuka's claim doesn't come from scum already. I think your argument about my D2 play getting suspiciously better is pretty bad; there's more for me to go off of after flips and I've been playing a lot more mafia lately so I feel more comfortable in my reads and logic at the moment.

I wanted to directly respond to this because I think the logic here needs a spotlight.

First on HitAlt - this response show why it isn't from a persepctive of honestly thinking about HitAlt. It's already been said in thread (Rask and I have talked about it) that the role he claimed isn't 100% Town. It actually can reasonably be a scum role used to detect a Serial Killer. That's not completely out of the question. Yet this doesn't even impact Sky's thinking. She's all about "If it is scum it's a gambit that's dangerous". Clearly that is true (although it is also possible if TheWorst is a Vig Gamma could be a RoleCop also ... for reasons TheWorst articulated and a Tracker / Watcher would not catch that fake-claim out) but Sky doesn't even have to consider these possibilities .. she knows Gamma / HitAlt isn't a partner.

I'm setting aside Andy because he's 100% clear to me so I'm never arguing he's scum.

As for Ausuka - the "claim doesn't come from scum" angle also doesn't float. I put Aus on her heels with my info drop. Scum Aus has no real choice but to claim otherwise down the line concealing would be clear sign between the two of us who was scum. Now I do grant there is a small possibility she's also Town but again Sky is clearing her on dubious grounds. I also think there is enough hedging in this response about that issue that if there is scum in the group of us it is Aus.

This is just a micro example of why I don't think her posts show Town intent ... she's framing facts in the way that justifies her reads as opposed to actually considering alignment as if it is unknown.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Can I say how disappointed I am with Andrius's replace-out? He was a perfect sounding board for me and knowing he was confirmed Town made this game bearable.

I'm fighting to read over what has happened since I last posted.

Maybe I will be back later.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So all I needed to get a Skygazer wagon was to give up on it and have life crush me with no free time for multiple days? Good to know for future reference.

VOTE: Skygazer

Also nothing personal Pine but get bent! You bring me Nos as a replacement for Andy? Really? I mean it could have been worse like NotMafia but honestly not much. I absolutely regret not having confirmed theworst last Night as was my original plan with this being the outcome.

Also everyone can chill re:Worst's obvious trolling regading Rask. Regardless of theworst's actual alignment he has reasons to be obsfucating in what he expected was twilight about his target. Rask turns up dead and no obvious Town thought process body appears and hang the Serial Killer I mean theworst. It's pretty simple. Duckling isn't Town but he's not stupid either so the chances of him actually taking that shot are basically 0/100.

--

MOI

lets be each other's half-functional sounding board.

I need one.

I appreciate this offer Taly. Honestly I’ve been trying to be one for you today given your posts about feeling disconnected. I just have a connection with Andy from playing years together and I’m a little frustrated that got dashed.

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Andrius was MOI's "sounding board?"

I don't like that comparison, it sound suspiciously like MOI was just using him to make himself sound better....

I apologize if you are not a native English speaker for what is about to occur but nothing in your post history evidences that to be the case.



I think you are probably Town so from now on whenever you post something as pants-on-head stupid as the above you will simply get this pic as a response.

I could expand on how I’ve known Andrius for basically as long as I’ve been on site and he and I have a long tradition of working together in games so knowing he was Town gave me an IC whose skill and judgement at the game I respect more than basically anyone else on the player list. But this will be lost on you because anyone who tells you to properly cram it causes an outbreak of InfernoSyndrome.

Symptoms include irrational tunneling with a complete lack of logic.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Taly

– Please don’t start some pseudo-vote project this close to deadline. It is only going to sidetrack the Town in general when we need to get a lynch complete. Pick your candidate and push them. Even if it isn’t Sky you need to narrow your focus at this stage.

--

Almost51
Ausuka
the worst
Skygazer
xyzzy
HeWhoSwims
Profii

Corrected this for you.

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The I listed a possible scenario where scum don't mind directing the vig shot on a partner bc they're going to block him anyway, or that they hope the shot goes elsewhere while they put the vig to rest. In short, there is no "secret reporter". These were just my own thoughts at the time.

Oh so you thought the Mafia have both a Jailkeeper and another blocking role?

Look. There are only two people here I am willing to 100% trust on xy, and one is tw. If he says to lynch xy today I'd pit my vote back on them. (Don't ask who the other one is. If I wanted to out them I would have).

You implicitly trust the outed Serial Killer to help you scum hunt by day knowing that each dead Mafia member brings him closer to PoE death? Insert Willy Wonka “Tell me about …” funny gif here.

Because that's how I decided to play this game! I hopped into a slot that was almost lynched, and my challenge is to keep my slot from being lynched. That's why I feel fine about being vigged or scum NK'd.

So you are saying that you’ve adopted an artificial playstyle this game just like Geriatric White Flag?

At this point I probably would not grouse about an A50 lynch. Because I have to recognize that maybe my Elbirn read was playstyle related and A50 keeps shoving his scum playbook in my face.

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Taly has a pretty substantial case against me/A50's slot/xyzzy in 1725, 1726, and 1727 which I just finally responded to above

So it took over a thousandish posts for you and your partners to workshop a response to a case?

Don't like that MoI hasn't responded to my latest post at him, if I'm lynched seriously consider looking at him more in depth especially late game if he doesn't die

Scum generally dislike it when I call for their head and don’t let them dissuade me. Sorry bout your luck there buddy.

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I’m going to also come back to this in my ISO, but that attack on me from MoI earlier...
I was thinking about it, and I realized that I haven’t actually been “irrationally tunneling” anyone this game, nor have I had a “complete lack of logic.” However, that sounds suspiciously like some of my early games.

So in other words, that post is a very unnecessary attack on me that doesn’t actually address what I said combined with an apparent meta dive that came out of nowhere.

This is exactly why I said what I did. Ever since I’ve called you out on bad / poor posts you’ve been in “MoI is scum because he’s mean to me mode”. And you’ve been bending over backwards to call me scum for any reason you think can stick, despite multiple other players telling you that you are being bad. That’s irrational tunneling to a tee. Frankly I don’t bother addressing your posts because … it isn’t worth my time. I need to help lynch scum not argue with randomlikelyTowniewhoisplayingderpandgetshisfeelingshurt.com that they are being bad.

You almost got another Dunce.gif for somehow thinking I would bother to meta-dive you with my limited time and knowing that I don’t scum read you. But I opted to try to be a bit more pleasant.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't see the problem there when the scum JK was a Prime Numbered Nights limited. After all, we do -presumably Town- have TWO Fruit Vendors AND a Visitor, and nobody's being skeptical about those.

This is a rather curious assessment of the situation. I clearly think Aus is likely scum and haven’t been shy about saying so. Many others have expressed degrees of concern about this. And the Visitor role is not really tangential at all to the Vendor roles given it can only prove to a Tracker / Watcher Inferno’s slot didn’t make the NK.

How much of the game have you read? How much of Day 2?

That's you sayin'. To me the duck is the Town Vig, and I don't even see him claiming that shot if he was the SK. I'll give it a 5% chance he managed to fool me here, but the other 95% say he doesn't claim if he was scum and especially so if he is working alone.

So you don’t see him as SK claiming the shot even when HitAlt basically guiltied him? Hmmm ….

Smells like scum who doesn’t want to cast shade at the likely SK to avoid being shot.

Listen, if you're so sure I'm scum ho ahead and vote me. See if I care.

The explanation was for those who might care to learn to read me (and believe it or not there are people who have developed some way of reading me). As for you, you just won't get that I play differently in every game, and that I am fully aware of what I did in the previous game I was with you, so it's nigh impossible for me to use the same trick in your presence.

Just lynch me to verify the above-mentioned fact, and let's see if you can win the game on your own (because believe it or not, I am one of your best assets in this game still .. if you are Town that is.)

Ok

VOTE: Almost50

Because this whole response stinks. Especially the part where you side-swipe at me pretending I’m “trying to do it all myself” when I clearly wanted Andy here to tag team the scum into oblivion and have been trying to cultivate a relationship with Taly.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Scum loyal fruit Vendor doesn't make sense. Disloyal is kinda weird because you're not gonna be vending your own team anyway. Scum fruit Vendor is probs just that.

Well I guess when you can see the scum Fruit Vendor Role PM pretty easy to make that assessment.

I eagerly await the time either I flip (and Ausuka has to scamble to pretend 2 Town Vendors make sense) or she flips (and I can rub it in everyone’s face).

I mean no-one seems to be even putting any thought into the fact that Town reading Andyslot and Gamma means her role is OP if Town given the scum flip of a Limited Blocker.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Quick phone post -

On Jingles whole “Gamma makes a good multiball scum” tangent everyone needs to chill for a bit. It will be pretty clear if Gamma has any chance of being group scum tomorrow. HitAlt has already confirmed they were targetted by a Loud role and strongly inferred it is protective in nature.

If a Loud protective Town role flips tomorrow then really look hard at Gamma. Otherwise based on how the day goes other issues might be worth discussing that are best left unsaid for now.

Preview Edit - the nursing their beer nonvoters need to get their act together.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Xyzzy

He is in the pool and Skumgazer and Aus strong defense of the slot tips me that way over Profi if Sky is off the table.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Note to self - go back and see if any multiball theory floaters also are on the “Xyzzy is a Dram counterwagon” train because those thoughts are pretty antithetical to a Town mindset if posited together.

[MagnaofIllusion]

rabble rabble rabble I still wanna see a profii lynch over xyzzy

was going to move my vote to avoid the NL but the deadline got extended

more to come later today?

I,, what? Did you just imply xyzzy is town or

Can everyone see why I want this killed with fire already?

[MagnaofIllusion]

OK so I might be a bit spammy this twilight because I don't want to put effort into writing a post and then lose it all.

The most important thing to remember is that MOI is scum not just on role but on play too. His recent ISO is pretty scummy I think, and I've given my thoughts sorry about him.

As a reminder in twilight when I flip Town hang this double time because it is scum.

Double points for “speculating” on multiball but then posting the “ugh” post showing 100% confidence in a Town Xyzzy flip.

Multiball spec is scum smoke screening.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Phoneposting is awful ...

Just want to point out in Ausuka’s first paragraph she was “Nos is a good lynch later assuming MoI doesn’t flip scum”.

Let that logic sink in. I’m a Loyal Vendor. Nos via Andy is 100% confirmed when I am flippped Town. The only way you EVER lynch Nos even with terrible posting is if I flipped scum.

Ausuka isn’t approaching the game from a Town perspective but from a “What can I post that looks Town” perspective.

[MagnaofIllusion]

i dont understand why scum would spec that multiball exists

it seems anti-wincon to introduce the idea that scum are scumhunting too

It is a by product of having too much knowledge. The most likely reason to way to be parsing Multiball given how N1 went down is to know that your scum team is undersized and be looking for the other scum.

It is a slip but happens often enough to be noted. Kinda like how Brass who as claimed BP makes total sense as a possible Multiball scum suspect but is nowhere to be seen in Ausuka’s last minute “thoughts”

[MagnaofIllusion]

How is that anything but a typing error LMFAO??? Why do I as scum say "You only lynch X if the person claiming an inno on X flips town." Why would anyone post that to look town? Everything you post is full of holes.

Yup total typo. Scum and Town are sooooo close on keyboard and often autocorrect to each other.



I don’t know why you think what you are doing in twilight looks Town. Only you can explain that in the Dead thread or postgame.

[MagnaofIllusion]

if there's scum in the fruit vendors its probably MoI

Nah. Just remember when I am Mod confirmed via flip that Aus is pocketing you as scum.

IMHO, Chicka >> Nos >> Profii, so Chicka is now VERY LIKELY SCUM (and I don't care if the Vengful claim is true or false, because Vengeful Scum is a thing).

@MoI: Ausuka is not that convoluted as Scum, I don't think.

Nope. Andy slot aka Nos is 100% lock Town to me. He’s not stupid so I trust that his reason to clear Chick is strong enough that I will be dead well before I would begin to question it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

if not a scum flip i would sus a50 on the flipside though
he was like oh idk lets lynch anyone in the pool for a long time and now he suddenly has strong opinions the second the hammer fell lol

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey A50 since you seem to be around...

Why dont you walk me through your scum motivation for Nos to place a meaningless L+1 vote? If your drift is that Chicka and him are scum partners why on God’s Green earth would they arrange that? If anything hypo scum Chicka should have been warning hypo partner Nos away from casting that vote if it was a scum gambit.

Please tell me more tell me more ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Um that really doesn’t follow given you are implicitly floating Xyzzy as mislynch in your arguments.

What Town cred do you think could be reaped from participating in a mislynch with a pointless vote? The not knowing point really doesn’t follow because they’d be better off having Nos avoid the mislynch entirely. And the “prevent at no lynch” is an empty point since no one is in replacement mode right now.

I thank you for making the lack of logic clear in twilight since I know Nos is 100% clear and when I die everyone else will also this showing this attack as scummy.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I gots a peach.

^Confirming this. Brassherald is very likely town. It's possible that Mafia have a tracker or a watcher but meh I think he's just town.

VOTE: Ausuka

The only way this vote is moving might (and only might) be to Skygazer who is pretty obvious scum.

Anyone who doesn't see that clearing Brass (who 0.00% of the playerbase thought was scum) as opposed to confirming I'm scum as she was whining about yesterday or clearing in the Pool of Death is 100% scum motivated play as opposed to game solving.

If you don't see that I can't help you. In which case go ahead and flip me today. It locks in Ausuka scum with my Town flip and minimizes the WIFOM damage her "clears" will do down the line (which right now is mostly only Rask IMO) and confirm both Nos and Chickadee as lock-Town.