Large Normal 216 - Endgame

[Performer]

VOTE: ap
------------

Why does flavor leaf have his username in green?
VOTE: Flavor leaf

Sorry I didn't see that part that said he was town.
VOTE: RCenigma

xx2008

0

-

2

-

1

Performer

0

-

0

-

0

Carcalilly

1

-

3

-

0

Maxous

0

-

0

-

0

Garmr

0

-

0

-

2

Inferno390

0

-

1

-

1

Sephiroth

0

-

0

-

0

Nosferatu

0

-

0

-

0

FA_Q2

0

-

0

-

0

AP

0

-

0

-

0

Shattiel

0

-

0

-

0

Completly Trustworthy

0

-

0

-

0

profii

0

-

0

-

0

Flubbernugget

0

-

2

-

0

DVa

0

-

0

-

0

RCEnigma

1

-

0

-

0

ofrhz

0

-

0

-

0

What does this numbering system mean?

[Performer]

Huh. Come to think of it, Creat's numbering system actually is similar to Ruby Red's numbering system where she was town in that one game. Maybe it's just a helpful way of keeping track of things in a large game, to simplify it.

Is 3 scum, 1 traitor possible with 19?

Possibly, as Traitor fits in normal guidelines. But why ask about Traitor specifically?

[Performer]

DO you want to go somewhere a little bit more quiet to do some testing?

???
-------
CT actually seems to be town this time around, compared to that one scum game with nos & garmr in it. I'm in similar line of thinking with his stances on creat & flubber, and his engagement with rce about nosferatu looks like it comes from town.

[Performer]

"Isn't Creature supposed to be easily readable by post count/effort?"
Unless his scum meta changed considerably , then that's how I read creature too. I don't think he's scum in this game though. That numbering system I personally don't care for but I can't see a scum creature going to that length to make that .

note to self: go over mini normal 2038 to check ofrhz & rce scum meta

off topic: FL ! North Berkeley had tons of fog on Saturday morning. That cancer walk wasn't as bad as I thought, not that cold and an easy walk. How has work been?

[Performer]

DO you want to go somewhere a little bit more quiet to do some testing?

???

The quote messed up somehow, my mistake . It was supposed to be questioning why ap said that

[Performer]

Oh, btw... do I need to catch up? Is there anything important in these pages?

Basically you & creature are lead wagons, Seph & Nos did 1v1, and CT wagon is lesser wagon but a thing .

[Performer]

I wanted to policy lynch AP coming into this game but he's growing on me now.

You have to admit the whole thing is a little charming.

The thing though is he's ALWAYS charming , like BlueBloodedToffee

[Performer]

UNVOTE:
ap strikes me as null so far but I don't think he's the right vote today.

I want to townread Sephiel but it's not there yet,

?

Do you mean sephiroth or shattiel? sephiel = hydra of both
@FL or anyone else - if you know who shatt is, do tell so we can meta that slot . I'm finding it hard to read it.

profii you're not as obvtown as I expected

also this AP kid is the bomb, please don't kill them

Huh?

Wait! Isn't that what you did here..?

I HAVE TO PRESS ENTER LIKE 5 TIMES JESUS

Guys Unvote implosion yallre redicilus

What are the chances you would do the same <obvious> thing in two back-to-back games?

I'm a consistent and predictable person.

with all due respect to 1 of the longest-known folks onsite, that's nonsense!
After playing 2 games with you, I don't think your self assessment is accurate
remember when I kept asking you in that one micro game why you were behaving so weird?

because I thought the Sephiroth/invis dynamic was so...odd.
.

invisibility is in this game??

Spoiler: off topic

@Performer

off topic: FL ! North Berkeley had tons of fog on Saturday morning. That cancer walk wasn't as bad as I thought, not that cold and an easy walk. How has work been?

I actually just left one of my jobs, and the other is on a break for 3 weeks (i work in film, so that’s common), so now I have some time to get my own film company off the ground!

That's good!

[Performer]

I actually find that recent game as useful for meta , the one where you and ofrhz were scum team. Helps me on 3 people in here: rce (you), ofrhz, and seph. Want to see more before I vote again.

[Performer]

Liking my towncircle so far. Out of curiosity Performer why are you voting AP out of everyone in this game?

I'm not voting AP

performer, are you town, if you are I'll ride on your pocket and we can power duo this game to win

Absolutely to the first part, but I'm not sure on the second part - I think you tried that in the micro and it turned it horribly

I've got some tr right now but it's still work in progress.

[Performer]

....is AP an alt or

Iirc ap = judge joseph dredd

[Performer]

Well i've caught up but not a lot i wanna comment on.

ofhrz & creature are still my scum-leans as of now.

but...why??
--------
FL what is flubber's meta as town, and as scum?

[Performer]

Ok so I have these people who're infamous for being hard to read: faq, garmr, profii, flubber, CT
Reaching out to audience lifeline: if anyone has meta (thanks FL for the reply though) on these 5, please come forward because I'm having trouble with those 5.
-----

Did a meta lookup of CT's first game (he was town) and it was strikingly same as his scum mini normal game . Sadly, his playstyle typically makes me tr him - which tricked me in a past game. Don't want that to happen again if he's scum this game. No longer a tr for me as the question about inferno replacing out, that's alarming. How can that possibly be AI?? This talk about inferno replacing out as scummy , was alarming.

Garm - I always find it troubling to read him though post d1, he is a little easier to read. He has a specific town tell that I've come to notice, and I think carca did as well?

prof & faq - the latter has more exp with me as both alignments, while I played with faq in a 14-player large when there were 2 scum vigilantes (no longer normal based on my NRG knowledge so far). The former I guess I could judge if he's town based on if he reads me right but I want to hear people's meta accounts of him as well; the latter I am just having a hard time reading still.

FL on Flubber - replied about flubber being difficult to read as either alignment. Though I'm thankful that he tried helping me, I want to see if people have more info on flubber because I want to see if there's more info on that so I can better judge the slot. Otherwise if a slot is still null, I may end up working with my townreads in voting.

Another reason I ask about meta is because (for those who know me well) I don't easily trust null/hard to read slots.

In other news, the tr on creature has changed after an ISO review.
--------

ofhrz - the host is very serious about his rules so ofrhz's prodge doesn't look right, makes me doubt my tr of him earlier. Prods are given every 36 hours AND prodges don't remove that. That and ofrhz scum meta looks like he tries to stay under the radar, making his prodge look like it comes from scum ofhrz . ofhrz are you town here?

[Performer]

Carca! I have only 2 trs

[Performer]

update tr:
really liking the 2 people who played in the game where I was Mason, and in the game were davesaz was somehow lynched on d1 (that was an awful lynch btw) - you 2 know who you are

who else I like for town - the person who gets affectionate whenever they see someone familiar in the game

[Performer]

I'm not affectionate I just really like some people

[Performer]

The former I guess I could judge if he's town based on if he reads me right


Seems like a trap

profi is my scum game truly that devious ?
If so, I'm flattered I guess? Though I don't think highly of my scum game , ever.

Point I was getting at is certain players are like open books. They don't manipulate their town and scum play that easily. Like myloninja, invisibility, etc. It's not like I'm going to say "oh prof is absolutely scum because he can't read me." Meta is just one of the things I look at . and I would think that since you're the only person who's seen both sides, that you would more easily read me .

I do disagree with your read of creature though. What do you think of grammar?

[Performer]

@prof I meant how you'll read me

later

on in the game. After all, for some reason you have trouble reading me when I'm town.

[Performer]

viewtopic.php?p=10214596&user_select%5B ... #p10214596

[Performer]

Dva are you an alt? Because in your scum game, you said you normally don't like playing scum. Still trying to sort you.

Assigned re-reading for myself :
viewtopic.php?p=10516723&user_select%5B ... #p10516723

[Performer]

Man there's really not much going on in this game, huh.

You get a TR for finally saying it aloud.

Uh....? For saying the obvious?? I can't with you, Judge Joseph. I can't.
-----
@CT dude. Trying to analyze someone's replace out based on games I've been in, hosted, and observed - it's a typically next to impossible thing to judge accurately. So you wondering about inferno replace out, if that was scummy, and you asking me too about it, is pinging me more and more.

[Performer]

Performer, I asked the question about Inferno because Profii indicated he had played with Inferno before and I figured he might know more about whether it was likely to be AI. I think replacing out can be ai in some instances such as in a game I recently read through where Scioness Sajj replaced out in the pregame and someone brought up that she often flakes out of scum roles.

By the way, what do you think of Nosferatu? Did his comment about Inferno's replacement affect your read of him?

Spoiler:

funny thing is i think nos is scum so vote him with me ok bye
so y act like nos isnt scum lol why u consult me bruh
VOTE: nosferatu
sheep me on this go go go choo choo
lol

i mean like its totally obvious oh my gosh. its so obvious nos is like, scum, because he said inferno was a scum replace out . oh my gosh nos. oh my gosh.

[Performer]

@Performer@Nos

What's your opinion on ct this game. All of us were in NY215: HMS Erebus and got bit by him. My opinion is his opening seems different it's a shift from his usual style.

Still trying to figure him out . The only meta I got so far is his town meta of newbie 1882, and scum meta that we just came from.
I don't get how his opening is a shift from his usual style .

[Performer]

Basically.

How do we measure:
a) the potential value of d1's lynch for informing reads
vs.
b) the dead weight on future days
?

a;lksdjfl;kdasjfal;ksdj this seems out of character for you.
pedit: at dva

What does this even mean??

[Performer]

you're worrying me, garmr...

I have no idea if that's all scum indicative for you but yes yes you're simply a worrisome person

The thing is with garm, him being worrisome isn't indicative for him....I know because I have played with him so much out of this player list - from this year and years ago. I don't recall scum garm but town garm does post a lot of wall cases - I personally don't care much for tons of wall posting or wall reading, but town garm and wall posting is something he does do.


off topic:

pirana plant made it into smash bros.

I noticed! You can only get that char if you buy before 1-31-19 iirc . I still have the ssb on n3ds, I just like how 8 chars can play altogether on a screen. I like playing with and against the AI

[Performer]

Saudade replaces Inferno390!

hi guys

NO. WAY .
It's Saudade LOL

[Performer]

Any cool mechanics in this particular setup because I don't read the first page ever?

-Lurking: You will be prodded after 36 hours of no substantial contribution(no prod dodging). After 24 hours of an unanswered prod I will search for a replacement(unless V/LA). Four prods in total, or two prods in one day will result in an instant replacement. ASK FOR REPLACEMENT IN A PM.
-scum has no daychat
-Length of day phases: Day 1: 14 days
Day 2: 10 days
Day 3+: 7 days
9.Length of nights: 2 days

This clause makes me very worried because it may mean there are a lot of killing roles. Thinking multiball with more than 1 scum faction and at least 1 sk. This is because the days shorten after each phase.


Those are the things that stand out most to me rn.

[Performer]

Any cool mechanics in this particular setup because I don't read the first page ever?

-Lurking: You will be prodded after 36 hours of no substantial contribution(no prod dodging). After 24 hours of an unanswered prod I will search for a replacement(unless V/LA). Four prods in total, or two prods in one day will result in an instant replacement. ASK FOR REPLACEMENT IN A PM.
-scum has no daychat
-Length of day phases: Day 1: 14 days
Day 2: 10 days
Day 3+: 7 days
9.Length of nights: 2 days

This clause makes me very worried because it may mean there are a lot of killing roles. Thinking multiball with more than 1 scum faction and at least 1 sk. This is because the days shorten after each phase.


Those are the things that stand out most to me rn.

Perf helping his fellow townsman understand the setup
speculates about the mafia team
perf earns townie brownie points

Well I mean...it's more helpful for future day phases imo. I 've been considering that ever since I read that clause in the beginning, and also my NRG history makes me think that as well . Anyway it's a reminder note to myself for future day phases .

[Performer]

why is flavor leaf green
is he confirmed town by setup?

Ah yes , FL is confirmed town - the moderator outed him from the start.

[Performer]

CT, why did you completely ignore my post I made to you ?

[Performer]

To be honest, Garmr's posts caught my attention more when I was looking at recent posts and I kind of overlooked yours. I made 377 because people were talking about whether the replacement seemed legitimate or not and I figured Profii would know better than me due to having seen Inferno play before. He explained in 384 and I felt that was satisfactory. I no longer think it means much of anything, Inferno was probably just busy like he said.

I meant my post about nos

[Performer]

That's very surprising to me because what I'm seeing is this:
you asked me about Nos on the inferno replace out. I replied. Now you revealed you were intending the question to sort me better, when it looked only like you were trying to sort nos. Yet when I did an ISO, you said you thought he was town? And you even thought he was null at some point?
So are you trying to sort me , or nos honestly.

nos is 1 of my first townreads in here . I've played with nos, garm, and FL - those 3 probably the most out of anybody else in this player list.

What's your read on me. As garm & nos know, I have a terrible time working with those I naturally townread (like your playstyle)....though there aren't many of those kinds of players that I've met. After the last game we were in, I find myself constantly distrusting you at every corner.

[Performer]

Flavor Leaf are you here?

Yo

I know a fake mason claim when I see em...masons and Ic?

Sadly, it happened in NY 213 where there was IC Neighbor with a Masonry...on top of that, all 3 folks in the initial neighborhood, were town. I think you & someone else were the Masons in that game.

The mason claim is actually a joke.
[Insert meme here]

I'm guessing your vig claim is fake too?

I really , really don't like you.

[Performer]

Shatt you DO know if you joke about pr claims, an actual pr might be outed. You know that...right??

inb4 ct/garm/nos/saud/(lapsa) say "oh there is traditional Performer again"

[Performer]

The one that says "wait for maxous to confirm the masonry and do something else in the meantime"

I want to see max's response about what shattiel just did.

[Performer]

The one that says "wait for maxous to confirm the masonry and do something else in the meantime"

I want to see max's response about what shattiel just did.

Going to be honest While I think shat is scummy for what they did earlier this is NAI to me.

What's nai? Her joking about pr claims?

[Performer]

off topic:

The town play on MS continues to descend right down the pooper

Trust me, if you've been on the other site I originally came from, you'd see how insane/immature people are . Thankfully quit that one several weeks ago.

[Performer]

Trustworthy's thought process is too simple but I trust that he actually believes what he's saying.

Trust me, CT is anything but simple. Learned the hard way in his scum game.
He's become a town lean for me in this game .

VOTE: Flubbernugget

[Performer]

Trustworthy's thought process is too simple but I trust that he actually believes what he's saying.

Trust me, CT is anything but simple. Learned the hard way in his scum game.
He's become a town lean for me in this game .

VOTE: Flubbernugget

I'm not that good at reading flubber. I will compromise on his lynch but I feel like shat is better lynch as there is no resistance to the flubber wagon and isn't really informal compared to shat.

I see what you mean. It's weird that shat thought flubb was a newbie, flubb is on his wagon, and all shat voted was inferno/saud and later unvoted. The talking about prs from shat and later saying he was joking around - I didn't like that whatsoever. When he mentioned pr talk WITH another player though, that was just super odd but I do like max's reply about that and max's follow through on ap. I saw a game with Nero Cain faking some sort of cop thing in that thread, along with a game where vaxkiller faked vigilante on d1, and at least 1 other game with someone who fake claimed...those 3 ended up being town (ridiculous I know). So I am still hesitant on the shat wagon.

I'm all for wagons in general and by now, we really need at least 1 substantial wagon . I have a huge dislike for wagons too close at deadline, because not everyone is around and the scramble impairs thought process.

[Performer]

I'm getting off my lazy ass now guys getting there.
Idk why I play long deadlines when I don't make use of it

Why are you still not voting

VOTE: No Lynch

..........

{creature, seph, AP}
{flubber, garmr}
{dva, rce}
{profii, lily, max, shat}
{ct}

hi, i was midway through typing this 5 hours ago so ill probably finish deciding what my reads are tomorrow

working draft tbh

also inb4 "he said hes deciding his reads, thats not organic town thoughts"

Nos how come you have ct still in the same position as scum? What's your updated read on seph - any change from before?

I’m actively trying to channel my inner Not Mafia this day phase.

I don't think we need a Not Mafia in this....lol

Gamma Emerald replaces FA_Q2.

GE! Welcome! Hope you're not scum in this large, like you were in the last one. I started townreading you when you were scum that game haha

[Performer]

Performer, would you strike any of these names from PoE: {FA_Q2, Maxous, Saudade, Sephiroth, Flubbernugget}?

Probably saud. Still need to see more from him though. Haven't seen enough to make me comfortable with him likelier town or likelier scum.

[Performer]

VOTE: Sephiroth

[Performer]

Trustworthy's thought process is too simple but I trust that he actually believes what he's saying.

Trust me, CT is anything but simple. Learned the hard way in his scum game.
He's become a town lean for me in this game .

VOTE: Flubbernugget

Why'd you trust him then if he's not simple?

I don't think this was answered.
It'd be great too if you could elaborate his "scum game"

After the interaction with CT earlier this day, I figured that he's likelier town than not , regardless of the complexity in the way he operates.

About his scum game, I'm glad you asked because that actually makes me move you from null to town.

The problem about his scum and town games - I don't find a difference in the two and I'd be in disbelief to see anyone say they can discern the two. Same goes for dva when I could find her scum meta - I ended up able to reread her scum game (as I posted earlier in my ISO ) in the newbie, and her gameplay here - I couldn't find a notable difference. She's been doing these poe lists for engaging people though, so that's something good I think.
Anyway CT in this game has been sorting in a way that looks like it's coming from town. You can reread his & my interactions, as well as his other posts to see why. Because of that, it's made me question Nos's one-track mind about CT, which looks like his scum game when he was scum with BBT & Teacher. Garm can attest to that. However, I don't think nos is scum but he's playing really bizarre to say the least, since he's had CT as scum in his list for so long.
In CT's scum game, saud kept voting him and he didn't vote him back, and CT kept soft-pushing a few people including me. CT & saud ended up being scum that game.

[Performer]

@saud who are your other scumreads at this point?

@RCE – how did your progression go from townreading me to thinking Saud & I are scum ?

[Performer]

Same goes for dva when I could find her scum meta - I ended up able to reread her scum game (as I posted earlier in my ISO ) in the newbie, and her gameplay here - I couldn't find a notable difference.

not sure if this is a compliment to my scumgame or an insult to my towngame, but this might be the nicest thing anyone has ever said about my scum game regardless of which way that was angled

You're hard to read so I don't think it was a compliment from me? Well I mean, if someone said I was hard to read , which I'm not that kind of player, that wouldn't be a compliment to me...but I guess for some folks it is ? You're welcome I guess...
I still want to know what your main is as you seem to have a lot of experience. But i guess that's a futile endeavor

Nos's one-track mind about CT, which looks like his scum game when he was scum with BBT & Teacher. Garm can attest to that. However, I don't think nos is scum but he's playing really bizarre to say the least, since he's had CT as scum in his list for so long.

not quite sure what u dont understand about my read on ct

i cant read him so im just assuming he's scum

if u want i could remove him from my reads entirely

Well, it's super clear to understand , that's not the problem I 'm having about it. I don't think you need to remove him from your list entirely though

[Performer]

I think by now everyone should have a stance on the 3 lead wagons of seph, flubb, shatt.

The lesser wagons including shatt's no lynch vote based on nk15's last vc, are telling to say the least.

[Performer]

Also FL if you could expand on meta for as many people as you can, that would be greatly appreciated by me and possibly others.
If anyone has questions about someone's meta , feel free to ask me too . No guarantees though as I'm not all-knowing but I'll try my best.
Why do I say this? Because certain players are like an open book in their playstyles - they don't change it all that easily.

@FL the best thing tonight is for you to get protected by a protective. No offense intended at all but whenever I hear people say "oh I played that way to avoid getting killed tonight," that's just hoping against hope.

[Performer]

@profi LOL how atrocious of you to tell people that at work.
@FL I hard disagree though I see where you come from in that approach. I always strongly believed we need to protect our prs and having a mod-confirmed town is an outrageously strong asset to fight scum. My NRG knowledge already thinks this setup of shortening day phases, is likely deadly enough with possibly multiple night deaths. With all that said , if you get protected and survive into d2, that's a huge asset.
---------

Another reason I ask about meta is because (for those who know me well) I don't easily trust null/hard to read slots.

@seph why I'm scumreading is is because of this quote + any other townread on the wagon + I like wagons (see my profile) + day 1 ends this week iirc + I'm never fond of deadline lynches + if we end up with no lynch it's a bad idea + I've had nos tr in the nos v you debate

[Performer]

pedit: scumreading you is because *

[Performer]

wish I was scum this game
I could scum theater the fuck out of so many players together
Game would be at 200+ pages
easy win

yes you WOULD scum theater, as I've seen not 1 but 2 of your scum games

He's piling on those votes real fast

I never protect my scum partners

Based on those 2 scum games, you definitely weren't shy about bussing your partners.
---------
AP why are you townreading seph so hard??

[Performer]

Basically.

How do we measure:
a) the potential value of d1's lynch for informing reads
vs.
b) the dead weight on future days
?

a;lksdjfl;kdasjfal;ksdj this seems out of character for you.
pedit: at dva

What does this even mean??

Was this ever answered, ofrhz?

@saud who are your other scumreads at this point?

Still waiting for this.

@AP I don't see why you'd react like that when I didn't recall you explaining your tr on seph. I recall you simply gave him a tr when he said nothing was going on, though.

[Performer]

OK, having seen the Nos vs Seph debacle I find myself obliged to apologize for the one I had with Seph in the previous game. It does look good from inside your shell, but ssing it from the outside I can see how that confuses everyone as hell.

Preliminary read is that this is a TvT, but I'm slightly more confident in the Seph read at this time. Nos and I will have to sort each other sometime soon if they're town.

@Performer: First mention of Seph in my ISO.

But I concede I got confused and I only explained it once

in this game

(I hope that's a clear enough hint, because that's as much as I can say).

That was a confusing post . Thought you were saying "preliminary" like you think they're town, then you're leaning seph town, then you said nos & you have to sort each other IF seph is town . Wasn't clear in that post but thanks for elaborating.
--------
Carca , thoughts on shatt & seph?
Sadu, thoughts on flubb & shatt?

[Performer]

Does Dva normally just vote people whose opinions differ from her own, or who have mildly offended her sensibilities? Asking for a friend.

I thnk you're just asking for yourself so just say it as it as !

Anyway, I suspect she voted you partly because of the name calling, which I found to be really , really bad. Like why bring in something totally unneeded? There was a game where scum in a micro game, said something like "what are you 5 years old?" and I called it out as bizarre and possibly even scummy. It turned out the 2 of them were indeed scum. Regardless, it's also offensive...so just stay away from saying things like that Thank you.

[Performer]

My point is, that's how I saw it. I can only go off what I'm seeing itt .

[Performer]

{Performer, Completly Trustworthy}

I would put these two players in the same bracket.

I can agree with your 3 sr but I'm extremely appalled that you put me on the same bench as CT. I never would've imagined someone would say that.

What madman has the audacity to call both Garmr and Carcalilly "genuine"?

I'm not sure if I personally would say they're disingenuous but their play in past games, has been....questionable at times.

My point is, that's how I saw it. I can only go off what I'm seeing itt .

I mean, its objectively incorrect to say that she voted me for being a big meanie or whatever, because she voted me prior to that happening. Does it not bother you that your opinion is completely detached from the reality of what happened?

After rereading the post and dva's interaction with you on that, I think I must've misinterpreted it , my apologies. I obviously feel strongly about....things like that , as well as the weird interaction with you thinking FL was holding some personal grudge on you....
Regardless, it's not the reason I am voting you.

[Performer]

After rereading the post and dva's interaction with you on that, I think I must've misinterpreted it , my apologies. I obviously feel strongly about....things like that , as well as the weird interaction with you thinking FL was holding some personal grudge on you....
Regardless, it's not the reason I am voting you.

Why are you voting me again?

Because of my 1051.

that sounds more like a policy lynch lets talk about your scumreads.

Why does everybody bring up policy lynching so often? I have NO CONFIDENT SCUM READS. I thus opt to use my gut and I know my gut isn't a good tool (some players have good gut reads, but I'm not one of those), but I have no better alternative.

shouldn't you at least try looking for a better alternative right now?

Voting someone because you're not sure you'll be able to read him later is pretty bad.. just because you can't read someone d1 doesn't mean you can't read him for the whole game.

I strongly disagree with the approach on someone who is difficult to read. I know that in MY scum meta, I try my best to coast and stay out of the radar, which ends up being null/hard to read to people. People who are difficult to read remind me of my own scum meta which is precisely that - staying under the radar, not drawing attention, coasting by, limiting if not outright avoiding engagements. That's why we have votes, their our weapons since we cant do night kills like scum can.

[Performer]

Going to post a readslist when I get time, but overall not liking the general gamestate with about 3 days left .

[Performer]

xx2008 last time you said you mixed feelings about flubb. What's your updated read now on him?

[Performer]

readslist at the moment:

seems likelier town than not

garm saying he thought saud was town due to 1 game but not ct, is simply wth. increasingly annoying because he never can townread me. Also I find his shattiel tunnel increasingly suspicious. However I think he's town based on how he's going about this phase - including his case on shatt which looked like a major effort to sort the slot & his interaction with creat. One major town tell of garm's is he goes ballistic when he feels like he's being voted unfairly, to the point of game throwing. In the 3 years onsite playing with him, I don't think I've ever seen this part of his town play change, so that's something.

saud - ignored my question to him about flubb & shatt. I don't think he's scum here. I definitely can't blame his obvious want of sheeping FL , I mean come on, any reasonable town would want to since FL is confirmed town. Though his scum range is vast, later on he should be easier to read. This is because he can post a ton as both alignments

carca - her (annoying) but affectionate town self. She's affectionate about specific people she's familiar with and can be very hard to work with. Both of these are her town tells. Crazy I know, but she doesn't operate in a standard town way, which I came to realize after our 2 town games together

rce - I liked his thought processes and also am in the same stance toward ap, but I find his read on me somewhat fishy. Something seemed off about his reply to me . Anyway he seems more engaged in this game rather than lurking like he did in his scum game with ofrhz

dva - ofhrz's reply about dva's meta didn't help me improve my sorting of her. I read her scum game and couldn't find notable differences there than her play this game. Had her as sr but moved to tr - I really like that she's been talking to me about poe . Disclaimer: (as garm & nos know) I'm horrible at spotting people who buddy me

max - had him as an sr before his big readslist, in which I agree with those 3 sr. Extremely appalled that he bunched me together with ct

nos - likely town. Still resentful toward him for his messy use of his JOAT role in the game we came from. Afaik, town nos goes by tone reading, has a somewhat rebellious tone in his posts, and scum nos works like he has an agenda and has unsupported cases for why someone should be lynched (for example, bare vote or unexplained sr on his reads list)

shatt - had him as sr but later moved to tr. His terrible admission to fake claiming and the interactions from that, made me think he was townier than not...this is also based on meta I've seen. It's clearly not good town play via FM 101, but whatever, I'm not being paid to be an advanced FM instructor here

Performer - this slot grows into something beautiful for the town.

pit of despair

ct - his engagement seemed like he's been sorting but otherwise, I get the growing feeling that he's lurking. He popped up whenever I mentioned him, which added to my paranoia. Feels like he fell off the face of the Earth. No longer a tr for me

GE/faq - one of his catchup posts after replacing in, mentioned if Cheeky (CheekyTeeky/Wh4t) is in the game - this I saw as a fluff post because anyone could tell that she was NOT in the game. His string of cathcup posts look like busywork which is what he did in his scum game in NY 213 large normal that I, FL, A50, Creature, and others came from

xx2008 - had him as tr but removed him from it after an ISO of him. I want to see his updated flubber read as he was the lead wagon at the time I asked, rather than just see him get onto ofrhz. In fact, I want to see his scumreads

flubber - FL's meta reply didn't help me sort him and his posts don't give me a solid tr

shortaru/creature - sorry dude, I think you replaced into a scum slot. I was thinking this was creat's scum game after his interaction with garm as well as how much he's been lurking (lack of much engagement)

sephiroth - enough has been said here from me. I also don't like that he thought FL voted him because of a grudge because that makes no sense. FL is too advanced and too professional to sink to using some ridiculous move like that

profii - still can't get a good townread on him

ap - extremely bizarre, not in a town way. Somehow read carca scum based off a scum game of hers he was in, yet read seph as hard town based off 1 game of his he was in. His posts have just been too weird, including the interaction with FL and the interaction with me about having gone into why seph was town but I pointed out he didn't point that out. Something's off about him

ofrhz - obviously lurking and at this rate he will be replaced. I think he's coasting like he does in his scum game I read, where rce & him were scum

[Performer]

RCE, Creature, and Performer -- how do you guys feel about joining on Flubber and getting this wagon rolling?

dva....why us specifically?
To be clear, I'm not townreading shortaru.

[Performer]

FL is too advanced and too professional to sink to using some ridiculous move like that

who's gonna tell him?

Not it!

[Performer]

Also not for nothin performer, but you haven't really said enough about me. You basically said that I was being scum read for a combination of weak reasons (like basically you need to assume 1 scum in nos vs me for it to even cross from null to sr in my opinion). That sounds like a compromise to me, based on you NOT having a strong read of me. Then you misinterpreted my interaction with Dva, and thought I was being mean (ftr, I would call that passive aggressive ). I guess I'm confused why you think you've said enough to justify me being in your scum pool, especially given when you made that post that you base most of your read on (1051) I had only just got back from V/LA. If something happened between me being V/LA and now that made me worthy of being a top 4 candidate for lynch, I'd love to hear it.

My reads list wasn't in any order but to go a little more into it, I think CT & FL were on it, Saud too, I was townreading them . And FL was confirmed town as well, AND I got Nos tr in the debate between you and Nos. And I honestly wasn't feeling like you were coming across as town.

And now, the wagon on you died, and I'm just cringing in frustration because now we have 2 wagons - 1 I was already on BEFORE you. I'm just getting tired of getting on a wagon and then it dissipates and I'm thinking, "really now, really?? PLEASE don't let this become some deadline issue where we don't even get a lynch."

VOTE: Flubbernugget as I was on this before.
----------
@prof I'm sorry man, I have a really hard time reading you. My interactions with you this game is more evidence of that.

[Performer]

Yeah... I'm just going to assume the first 40 pages or so are early game crap posting and focus on current events with ISOing as needed for background.

Cool? Cool.

So, who wants to dance?

I don't want to dance at the moment but I'm watching you, shortaru. You know what I mean.

[Performer]

off topic:

Sorry for my lack of posting recently, I've been helping out in a political campaign lately and invested a lot of effort into it. I'm very tired right now, but I will read through the recent pages first thing tomorrow and post my thoughts.

I just want to say I am grateful for your efforts to help in our American political campaigns!

Shut up and vote

I like this and actually have been seriously considering changing my playstyle somewhat, to start playing more like not_mafia. Just a shut up and vote type of play because sometimes nothing else matters but shutting up and voting.
-----------

I'm gonna put both Saudade and Nos on the idc town pile.
Don't have meta on those two though so if anyone have meta on them and you disagree tell me.

Reread my ISO and you'll find at least 4 slots I did meta on for my readslist. I don't have full meta like meta on scum garm , etc though, so it's not comprehensive.

Dolphins?!

Why is this Carcas towniest post

lol. I'm shocked she actually put up a wall post with links, for casing garm. Never seen that from her in my life. Carca is evolving her play? Who knows but I think it's a good thing.

[Performer]

If we can get Dva, gamma, nos, FL, Carca, Ofrhz, profii, and maybe AP or Saudade together it's probably an all town wagon. Vote up

What in the...? How did you progress from not liking ap & saud to thinking they're town now?

[Performer]

The combination of ofrhz being the largest counter-wagon to Flubber and if i remember right, Dva had him as a town read, would make ofrhz a stupid lynch today - so i'm dropping that.

I'm of this thought at the moment too, the way flubb pushed for an ofrhz lynch.

Also, what a downright weird nk. I expected FL or AP to bite the dust instead.
Also, scum must have a strongman based on what NK15 posted. If they had a strongman with no limits (like X shots), I would have expected them to kill FL . Instead dva died. Anyway, time to look into wagon composition of who was on or off.

My sr indeed carry over from yesterday and ap looks even fishier now.

[Performer]

as for the rest of flubber's posts, I seem to have mixed feelings regarding them. They dont seem very towny, but they don't seem very scummy either. I'm not ready to put my vote on flubber yet.

Sepihroth is the big bad, though.

Through my entire read through I was thinking “yup, one of Nosf or Seph are definitely scum”

And it’s Seph.

I'm curious as to why you think Seph is scum. I'm doing an iso on him when I get the time to do so, but I'd like to know your perspective.

I wanted to policy lynch AP coming into this game but he's growing on me now.

You have to admit the whole thing is a little charming.

Why did you want to policy lynch ap coming into the game?

VOTE: ofrhz

Strange how you're voting ofrhz without providing a reason.

@dva, I do have mixed feelings towards flubber and Sephiroth, but I don't think that they are completely scummy, as you implied with your rhetorical question. I'm giving you a little pressure right now.
VOTE: dva

I'm glad to see gamma emerald analyzing the posts page by page. As scum, I would probably let the posts be buried and not comment on them. I have a good feeling about gamma.

I kind of think the wagon on sephiroth was scum driven, and dva is my prime suspect.

VOTE: ofrhz
I forgot to vote him.

My scumreads are currently dva and ofhrz.

@maxous, flubber did appear somewhat in the middle, although he did lean scum/town at times. I was even a little surprised when he flipped scum. AP might be being cautious and not wanting to vote someone unless they he was more certain they are scum.

fence sitting, bizarre defenses of flubb & ap, ok with dva's lynch as well as ofrhz's (probably town due to how flubber pushed for his death).

flubb/ap/xx/somebody else = scum team?

VOTE: ap
--------

personal notes

scum:
strongman
informed goon - flubber

town:
n2&n3 rolestopper

[Performer]

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch btw. Providing this as I didn't see a vc for d2 yet.

[Performer]

I expected FL or AP to bite the dust instead.
:
:
ap looks even fishier now.

How the freak would I ever get killed when half the player list are openly promoting a scum read on me?

And OF COURSE Scum would have expected FL to be protected last night.

I don't know, that would be a question for the scum team.

personal notes:
informed flubber - maybe informed of dva being a rolestopper, hence scum targeted her ?
because with a strongman, no way do I see scum team not killing FL. so maybe he was informed of dva being a rolestopper so scum prioritized nk on dva over the IC flavor leaf?
that could explain why she was killed as I find it unlikely she was targeted because of pushing for the flubb lynch.

[Performer]

because with a strongman, no way do I see scum team not killing FL.

You don't think a specific day modifier is likely? We already know from Dvas flip that that modifier is used in the setup.

I would speculate that regardless of modifier, scum team would kill FL if they had Strongman with only information on scum team members and roles.
If Flubber was informed specifically of dva being a tpr or even more specifically, a rolestopper, then that makes way more sense to me that they would kill her.

Anyway...I don't see what else I can get from this speculation but that's all I got as a note .

[Performer]

scum:
strongman

Pardon?

ALLOW ME TO G U E S S

Spoiler: GE's role

MAFIA S T R O N G M A N

[Performer]

informed flubber - maybe informed of dva being a rolestopper, hence scum targeted her ?

Are you suggesting scum had pre-game chat? Because to my knowledge day chat is not allowed in Normals unless explicitly mentioned by the mod in the rules. If this is the case (no chat) then scum don't even know what info Flubber had, which is more reason to believe the wagon is mostly pure town.

Based on my game experience onsite and Normal Review Group experience, pregame chat is provided in Normal Queue games...I might be grossly wrong but that's just my experience.

During my 2 scum games this year, 1 in newbie and 1 in mini normal queue, I've had pregame scum chat in both. So if flubb somehow had that knowledge from his role and provided it during pregame chat, then it makes sense scum targeted her above anyone else. Otherwise scum team has some bells loose in this game for not targeting FL or you , AP.

Also, the way you're reacting isnt what I expected if you're actually scum.......
UNVOTE:
*thinking*

[Performer]

Also AP...are you saying daychat and pregame chats are the same? It appears like that's what you're saying. Which is absolutely bizarre because you're a veteran, and this just looks a fake forced questioning.

Prechat
Day chat
Night chat

They're different.

AP is not off the hook. Waiting to see more as not everyone has chimed in yet.

[Performer]

Liking CT's posts on pg 58, along with his mention of if scum had pregame chat - looks like he isn't on scum team .
Read on saud has dwindled into Pit of Despair. on d1 the intense sheeping approach, ok. But that same approach even into d2, is simply suspect.
------------
Rereading AP's post about max/profi/me on voting AP at the time, I'm not liking it anymore. That ending sentence reads like AtE defeatist from scum - the talk about w/l record and a wiki page. Was thinking over the other lines in his post and it just looks like random scum posting. It makes me wonder how any of it comes from a town mindset. Basically a reiteration of what happened.

Maxous/Profii/Performer << One of these 3 is scum. I dunno which, but this early push on me feels unnatural.

People are speculating DVa must've been killed because she pushed the Flubber lynch. Fine. I voted him BEFORE she did.

Check the bloody VCs before you sheep Scum. 1008 shows me not voting with Seph @6 votes (L-3) and DVa voting him. Shattiel was @3 and Flubber @2.
1171 shows Seph's wagon dissolving (the wagon I refused to join) and Flubber's building up with me on Flubber.
In between Shattiel and Flubber were toed @3 (if I remember correctly) and that's when I decided to vote Flubber.

2 of the 3 voting me now joined the Flubber wagon after me, and one wasn't even on it. Performer was still on Seph when I was voting Flubber, and Profii was vanity wagoning Saudade.

But sure.. do as you all wish. See if I care. This is AP anyway, and the beauty of it is I don't even keep a record of my win/loss stats on this account. No wiki page either.

scum:
strongman

Pardon?

ALLOW ME TO G U E S S

Spoiler: GE's role

MAFIA S T R O N G M A N

So you spec that scum would’ve killed FL if they had a Strongman
But you also think one exists?
Can I try what you’re smoking?

sorry but I am incredibly healthy, I dont smoke and drink very very little only in social situations
mod's reveal of dva's death mentioned Strongman - why bother mentioning it there anyway unless there's a high or definite chance there is one? That's how I believe one exists.

The thing is I don't want to read 50+ pages so someone needs to tell me what's going on.

I think the important thing is that you replaced into a scummy slot. Now go scumhunt or you shall be dayvigged!

[Performer]

Also AP...are you saying daychat and pregame chats are the same? It appears like that's what you're saying.

No. I'm saying scum do not have day chat, so for them to know what Flubber knew they need to have had pre-game chat.

@Mod: Did Scum have their PTs open in pre-game?

If they are able to talk during the day, yes.
Otherwise, no.

That’s not what I’d expect
Normally pre-game is a sort of Night 0 when it comes to PTs.

I didn't expect that answer either. Pregame chat and night chat has always been separate. If scum had daychat which isn't the case in this game, then the pregame chat thread would just stay open. Anyway, still a bizarre question from AP to me about daychat and prechat, as I posted in a past post.

I was refraining from reading ap because I thought he was a cop.
But today he seems to have some knowledge of the scum thread as he knew scum have no pregame chat (unless they have day chat). When most mods allow pre game chat.

This game feels off as it seems like quite a few players have information that townies shouldn't know aka Profii and Ap

ALLOW ME TO G U E S S

Spoiler: AP'S ROLE

M A F I A ROLECOP
COMMITTED THE NK ON DVA

Note to self: if scum had a rolecop, strongman, and informed, that would actually make a ton of sense considering the flipped rolestopper with an IC.

--------
Carca where are you.

[Performer]

Hm. Interesting interactions between FL, GE, AP. I keep thinking that there is one based on the flipped information for flubb & dva, as well as having an IC. Maybe I'm mistaken.

[Performer]

@AP other than max/prof/me, what's your scum pool looking like now.

[Performer]

Hm. Interesting interactions between FL, GE, AP. I keep thinking that there is one based on the flipped information for flubb & dva, as well as having an IC. Maybe I'm mistaken.

One what? One scum?

As in thinking there is a strongman. But I might be wrong according to the elaborations . Anyway , I should shelve it for my own notes .

[Performer]

@AP other than max/prof/me, what's your scum pool looking like now.

Who says you're in my scum pool? I said ONE scum in that pool, so why do you think it refers to you in precise?

Do you have a particular scum read?

[Performer]

Does IC mean a role that is revealed at the start of the game?
What does a strongman do?
I haven't heard of them before, but I always keep forgetting to ask.

@fl, you hammered flubber day1 very quickly without waiting for his claim. Were there any reasons other than the ones you stated day1 for doing so?

These are very, very weird questions to ask. Anyway, an IC revealed means that person is the designated Inexperienced Challenged guy for the game. A strongman just means a role that is strong enough that, if he targets a tpr, he ends up wiping out the rest of the tprs in the game. Sad and super powerful , I know.

I reviewed Varsoon, FL, and your game where you were tpr Town Tracker with my friend James Doakes the jk. I didn't get a newbie vibe like the one you have in this game. GE somehow tr on you and I don't recall ap mentioning a read on you.

AP what do you think of xx & my case on him. He's in my scum pool. Why on earth he wavered on you and flubb, is suspicious.

[Performer]

On reflection - I’m voting Maxous as a compromise to work with people, Saudade is the best lynch but people need to think about it - might go and find that previous game where Saudade said he scum coasted and got away with it

Depending on your definition of coasting, saud is absolutely capable of coasting to win as scum, yes. He just posted a ton of fluff in his 2 scum games I had front row seats to, and was active though...not the traditional kind of coasting where scum is just inactive and unengaged. Here he's looking like he's coasting off FL simply since he's mod-confirmed IC.

[Performer]

Welp I haven't read a single post for today yet.
Later

and yet you claim to be locktown
thinking you are also a good vig shot today

[Performer]

I am only caught up to the early nos/seph interaction, which reads like scum theater to me. It started as an argument about bolding a name (uhhhh) and then turned into really shallow snipes at each other about who has more game forwarding content. Neither of them tried reading into motivations for the way each is posting.

kinda suspect nos/seph here
Scum theatre is some bold word wouldn't be surprise if he flash some tmi with one of them in that read

Based on nos scum meta, I don't recall scum not ever doing scum theater with his buddies...could be wrong though (garm you want to pipe in on that point?)

[Performer]

Really? You don't think Shortaru was light defending flubber in his catch up?

If AP disappeared from the game who's next up in your list?

I agree a lynch on saudade is a waste today.

I looked Shortaru over and I disagree he was defending Flubber.
It looked to me like was prodding admitally lazy votes from Garmr and Carcacilly.

Next on my list would probably be Gamma.
I don't really have a case on him though, I just think his long catch up posts were underwhelming and I haven't found a reason to think he's town.

Am I losing my mind or does it look like max's scumreads are melding with mine a little too closely? GE/faq, creat/nero cain slot, AP....

[Performer]

Is it just me or does xx’s response make no sense there

Definitely looked weird to me there.

But then FL & RCE's point about him asking that from town mindset, makes me wonder if that's the actual possibility .

Not sure if it really comes from scum or town xx anymore.

[Performer]

Yes but I’m the post he’s responding to, #1 troll performer said IC = Inexperience challenged

well at least SOMEONE gets my lame sense of humor...

[Performer]

So his sheeping FL day one was ok, but you voted him day 1

I've never been happy that Saudade doesn't want to scum hunt hence votes on d1 & d2

I am also going off the recently finished game where he replaced out because he was pissed at Doughboy, was town, and it was a mini normal.
Comparing that against his 2 scum games .

Problem is, his scum range is probably as vast as AP & profi's scum range...in that case , meta alone may not be reliable for players like that. But it's absolutely a tool I'm using along with what he's doing in this game, which is increasingly suspect.

[Performer]

Ok, so it looks like everyone has caught up (as I was waiting for everyone and now Carca looks like she caught up as well).

The interactions on pgs 60-61 after xx asked the IC & Strongman questions, are interesting between FL/RCE/ofrhz/AP.

Based on what's happened on d1 & n2, and what's happening on d2, I don't think it's a good idea to keep quiet about my role and results. If I somehow don't get the chance to tell anyone this, then I'll regret bringing it to my grave if I end up being nked…and holding onto information any longer doesn’t seem like a good move in this case. Also with FL still alive, there's a mod-confirmed town to work with . If FL dies tonight instead, then if I out the results next day, I have 0 mod-confirmed town to work with and that's a terrible issue . Basically the power of working with verified town.

[Performer]

I am a multitasking JOAT.

I jailkept FL, voyeured Nos, tracked maxous, and motion detected AP.
Nos was because he was one of my earliest townreads in here & other people were tring him, so I thought scum might visit him somehow.
Max because FL dubbed him scum so I trusted in that.
AP - I don't think I need to further explain why I detected him of all the players lol.

[Performer]

Multi tasking joat seems like a game changer
Hell he got 3 investigative actions in 1 night I'm expecting some strong wolf roles to balance it.

That's what I'm worried about as well and that's why I've been speculating strongman, rolecop to go with the informed goon. And if there's a 4th scum, then who knows...maybe he's a ninja scum as 4th scum.
vs
Rolestopper, IC, multitasking JOAT.

Also that's why I hypothesized AP made the NK.

Trust me though, this role isn't as astounding as some may believe it to be . I mean it's great, but it has many, many...limits.

[Performer]

Expecting a mountain of a post.

Why would you expect a

mountain

of a post?

[Performer]

-So, with xx not voting flubb as of the eod 1 wagon on
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=77628&p=10548728#p10548728

and my case on him, xx2008 is absolutely a candidate.

-@Garm.....I feel like nos/max/ap should chime in about me targeting 3 of them, before I say my results...
-Also need to re ISO those 3. Something doesn't feel right

[Performer]

Upon a re ISO - @max never mind, please disregard my suspicion of you melding your reads with mine.

[Performer]

-So, with xx not voting flubb as of the eod 1 wagon on
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=77628&p=10548728#p10548728

and my case on him, xx2008 is absolutely a candidate.

-@Garm.....I feel like nos/max/ap should chime in about me targeting 3 of them, before I say my results...
-Also need to re ISO those 3. Something doesn't feel right

I will disagree with waiting because it's really important you read them out now.

Ok

[Performer]

@FL yeah but even regardless of his questioning of the IC and strongman and the way he replied, regardless of that, don't you think xx is super fishy for being off the wagon and my case on him?

[Performer]

The results from Not Known 15 on the below:

voyeur on nosferatu - did not see anything, tracker on maxous - did not see anything, motion detector on ap - motion detected.

[Performer]

Sepihroth is the big bad, though.

Through my entire read through I was thinking “yup, one of Nosf or Seph are definitely scum”

And it’s Seph.

I'm astounded that people actually read an interaction that was literally getting worked up by emboldened text

and went "yup there's scum there."

amazing

VOTE: max

{creature, seph, AP}
{flubber, garmr}
{dva, rce}
{profii, lily, max, shat}
{ct}

hi, i was midway through typing this 5 hours ago so ill probably finish deciding what my reads are tomorrow

working draft tbh

also inb4 "he said hes deciding his reads, thats not organic town thoughts"

i got sorta no opinion on flub tbh

i wanna say if dva is town then flub probably is as well

NEW READLIST! (still pending)

{seph, AP}
{flubber, garmr, performer} << performer
{dva, rce, creature} << creature
{profii, lily, max, shat}
{ct, xx} << xx

Self notes: these posts from nos - townreading AP a long time, townreads flubb for a period, scumreads ct & max....for a long long time. Rather interesting.
----------
pedit @garm: what the ... lol

[Performer]

The result on AP isn't damning but it would be expected that scum was busy last night considering we whacked one on Day 1

ugh my math is horrible but maxous brought up a great point. With 1 gone, there are less scum, making it even likelier that AP isn't town.

I am this close to power lynching AP right now.

[Performer]

In that scenario Ap would of been a town power role and have a role that would of most likely targeted or you were a watcher made the kill with a strong arm while watching dva to see if a doctor or another role existed.

That's what I'm worried about, that he was a tpr and I would've accidentally outed him today.

But with the way things have been going and the result on him, I seriously doubt he's town.
------
@FL I dont remember him being OMGUS in that newbie game with varsoon.... As of today he seems to be bleeding the rookie aura a ton.
He did have ofrhz & dva scum, but I just figured scum wouldn't have objections to killing 1 of who they had as an sr

[Performer]

I was getting excited because I thought I caught scum what a let down. Anyway why claim now? Why not keep doing your night actions your results are kinda meh I would of tracked ap after to see if he does have actions.

I was afraid lesser day phases meant multiple nks in the night, I got at least 1 result, FL was mod confirmed, and I felt far less confident about surviving into d3 along with FL surviving into d3, as well as AP looking super fishy.

So I decided this was the best time to say so.
I could have instead saved actions for later and outed results later too, but I considered it being much riskier to save it into later phases. Also if I somehow died before then, then nobody would know my results ... which would've been downright terrible

[Performer]

He definitely was. I voted him, and he hard tunneled me, haha. I was killed Night 1.

oh. I didn't see that as OMGUS haha

[Performer]

@Garm say whaaaat. How was ap looking to be today's lynch even without the results? People were moving around onto other places...

[Performer]

Maxous, you said in 1103 that your read on RCE hinged on flips and you had a problem with his readlist. Have the recent flips changed your opinion of the slot at all?

To be fair the only slot from that list I still think could be scum is Sephiroth. Shattiels grown on me, maxous too.

The only person of the 3 you mentioned that're probably town, is maxous for me.

[Performer]

{AP, garmr, performer}
{seph, ofrhz, shat}
{rce}
{profii, lily, max}
{ct, xx}

not sorted:
saud
nero
gamma
ct

VOTE: AP

see ya in another 46 hours o/

You have ct as scum AND in not sorted
you have AP as tr AND you voted him
Then you return to coasting

Nos is is starting to worry me a great deal.
------------
pedit @rce: it's partially based on the track of maxous & seph+shatt haven't done anything on d2 to make me think they're town

[Performer]

Are you loyal vig? I love that as a role.

If I was I would have never acted.
I'm DISloyal RB. This means I don't even know if my action succeeded or not. I targeted Maxous. It was between him and Shattiel for me.

What in the?

[Performer]

and Dva had a scum read on him so I wouldn't be surprised if she visited him to.

-spec of me being some sort of mafia pr
-mentioned dva visited ap

Garm, Dva flipped as n2 & n3 rolestopper. No way she could've been the motion on ap.

Garm seems a little off with those 2 instances there, but I've seen him as town make a weird mistake once when he listed davesaz as scum on d2, when dave was killed n1....so....eh.

[Performer]

The Role Itself

Disloyal is a role modifier conceived as a complement to the earlier Loyal modifier. If a player is Disloyal, then any attempts by that player to use a night action on a player with the same alignment will fail (as though they had been roleblocked). As such, a disloyal player can only succeed with actions when targeting a player of a different alignment.

-Considering rule 15 of how there could multiple folks with same abilities, the rb portion of his claim doesn't sound outlandish...dva also had a similar ability
-I need to re ISO ap to see if his post about max & shat, even make sense
-If he's disloyal rb tpr & targeted someone, they must target a player opposite their alignment to have their action go through.
If he's scum disloyal rb & targeted someone, same as above so his role is risky either way...as a negative utility role.

Setup Speculations

1. mafia: disloyal rb, informed goon, 1-2 more scum
town: n2+n3 stopper, multi joat, IC, maybe 1-3 more tprs based on NRG balancing

2. mafia: informed goon, 2-3 more scum
town: n2+n3 stopper, mult joat, IC, disloyal rb, 1-2 more tprs based on NRG balancing

I see either case is possible .

More Thoughts About Disloyal Rb Claim from AP

See, this is why I wanted to wait for my targets to say something to my actions on the, BEFORE I outed my results. But now, who knows if AP is fabricating this as a scum story because he just so conveniently targeted maxous also.
Has anyone EVER seen a disloyal tpr? This is the first I've even heard of it.

AP remind us - why did you target max??

Consider this: if town ap thought max was scum, then his disloyal role means max HAS to hit someone of OPPOSITE alignment in order for his role to work. If max was indeed scum, then max OBVIOUSLY would target OPPOSITE ALIGNMENT aka anyone other than his team. Now, if max turned out to be a tpr too, then town ap shouldn't even risk it because what if tpr max had a protect or some other good ability to help town - then ap would've neutralized max's role. So ideally ap needs to have waited until another night to use his ability, because on n1 he could've neutralized tpr.
Am I understanding this correctly?

[Performer]

Before I catch up with and reply to necessary new posts, I need to reread AP's ISO regarding max, shatt, and how AP got on the flubb wagon.

[Performer]

VOTE: Flubbernugget
I remember getting scumpings from this, and I don’t wanna vanity vote rn

Permission to sheep (and I will already assume permission granted)

VOTE: Flubber

So this is how the vote happend from ap on flubb. The disturbing thing is, I had GE as sr. His lynch pool posts did have flubb in them, though....3 times in fact. Hm...

AP

- He has very few scumreads I can find for someone that has written so many posts.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Like, everybody's been blaming me for having a LARGE lynchpool!

Still think you're probably Town cuz Scum would be paying attention to make sure they do have a case on me.

I am leaning Maxous over you two. Performer's views today look too weird to come from scum, whether informed or not. They're drawing way too much attention his way for no good reason. Profii I am less certain about because he voted me then flipped on Maxous. I dunno if that was a thoughtless town move or an elaborate scum move, but I'm still leaning the former and I am not yet ready to vote him either.

Maxous' leading the wagon on me and doubling down on an already bad case with more bad arguments is yucky. Looks like scum who shot themselves in the foot and can't find a way to retract.

AP I don't get how you progressed from max not being in your lynchpool & being town, to rbing him on n1, to saying his case on you is scummy.

[Performer]

@ Performer: Are you an 'alien' jailkeeper? According to the wiki that would make your target completely untargetable which would be different than just preventing NKs and preventing the night actions of FL. Its important to get this piece of info now as opposed to later, I think.

My role is not alien at all.

[Performer]

Generally speaking I use implicit WIFOM for my targeted actions. For example, if I was a Doctor I would have more likely protected Profii. Why Profii? Bc I hard TR him. Why not FL? Because Scum will assume he will be protected anyway. What if Scum have a strongman shot? Then my protection on FL would have been useless anyway.

If I was an explicit investigative (say a Cop) I would have checked in Maxous Shattiel, and not in people already in my lynch pool. I'd worry more about the scum I might not want to lynch (i.e. not including in my lynchpool) than the one(s) I already have in my lynchpool.

Got it?

I see what you mean but I would hard disagree . Having more confirmed town is very important. I would probably always protect a confirmed tpr if I didn't know the setup.

And about hard townreading profii - pray do tell how we can more easily read profii. seriously.

[Performer]

pray do tell how we can more easily read profii. seriously.

here is a simple guide

Haha very funny....

[Performer]

@AP thank you for the elaboration.

Also thank you everyone for elaborating more on how exactly AP's role worked.

-----
I have ... something more to reveal, since AP revealed a role I didn't imagine would've been in this game.
AP and others, I seriously need your help with this because it's been an immense amount of responsibility, this role.
I'll post about it in my next post.

[Performer]

Ok so since the deadline is winding down and I never would've imagined AP would have a role like this, I believe this is a good time to tell you that I have 2 more abilities.
1 of them is ALSO a roleblocker ability - the regular rb ability.
The 2nd ability is a bodyguard ability.

I have used neither because I thought it was too dangerous to accidentally block a tpr, and I didn't want to die yet using bg to protect FL in case he really was targeted.
I didn't think I should've told you guys this until AP outed that super bizarre role of his - then I thought, "well, what if we both roleblocked the same target tonight?? That would be really unfortunate."

In total, I am a multitasking JOAT with 6 abilities. I feel like AP & I need to coordinate our abilities.

This is a giant amount of responsibility and I can't do this alone, so I seriously need advice on what should happen. Tonight , I'm 1000% sure FL/me/AP die.

[Performer]

@seph me neither, but I don't think me keeping quiet is any better

[Performer]

@RCE I have limits to my role, and they're very severe limits

Also if anyone asks if I die after using all 6 of my abilities....I'm not going to answer that lol.

[Performer]

Something else:
I consulted the mod and he said something that made me think there is more than 1 faction. From what I recall of my exchange with the moderator, when I inquired him about bodyguard processes:
I asked him if strongman targeted FL while I bg FL, only FL dies.
If strongman AND someone else targeted FL while I bg FL, we BOTH die.
If someone or more than someone target me, only I die .

Along with rule 15 about roleblocking & the mention of strongman in dva's flip, I don't think it's a coincidence those 2 words were mentioned. Not sure if there's really a 2nd faction and/or sk out there and/or strongman out there, with what I spoke about with mod. If anyone wants, they can ask the mod itt to confirm what I said.
-----------

Summary of n1 actions:

Perf jk FL - FL survived
track max - no movement
voyeured nos - no movement
motion detected ap - motion detected
rb -
bg -

AP disloyal rb - maxous

[Performer]

pedit: was supposed to be did not see anything, not no movement for max & nos

[Performer]

Something else:
From what I recall of my exchange with the moderator

From what you recall? This would be in an easily accessible PM so....

Just checked it, and it's exactly as I recalled . He just worded it weird , is why I was a little unsure.

[Performer]

Well, I proposed a working plan, and I'm waiting to see if he can go with that. I am also open to suggestions from others.

I'd use the Rb and not the BG tonight if I was you. That was IF you die we know it wasn't a shot on the IC. But that's as far as I thought it out.

We don't need to explicitly out our RB targets though. That would be too much info given to the Scum team, and assuming there are 3 of them left and EVEN if we both are blocking 2 of them we're just telling them the 3rd is the one to do the kill tonight.

Maybe we should have like .. separate pools? Like use your best judgment and block someone from the top half of the list and I will target someone from the bottom half of the list? I think that leaves it pretty much open for anyone to be blocked and then scum will have to try to outguess us both.

Hm. My first thought is that I like this idea. I could do someone from #s1-9 in the op, and you do someone from #s 10-19.
But why not bg FL too? Him living into d3 is more important than you or me.

[Performer]

off topic: @FL this smoke is terrible in the area. Just like the weather in China. Damn.

[Performer]

off topic:

off topic: @FL this smoke is terrible in the area. Just like the weather in China. Damn.

how far are you from the fires?

you're in CA too? I'm not right there in Butte County but I'm in the SF area

[Performer]

oh wow. I've never seen snow, I dread cold weather. I'm a typical spoiled Californian with my weather, haha

[Performer]

He said that if he were doc, he would target profii, because he hard tr'ed him in one of the posts. In another, he says that the person he targets to protect would be whoever the scumteam is most likely to target that night and is not necessarily his top tr.
Since this is a fully closed setup, could there be a chance ap is fake claiming? What I'm thinking is that a fake claim from scum makes town confused even more when they try to speculate what roles there are in the game. It also gives scum the chance to stay alive, even if for a while. Do fake claims from scum usually happen in fully closed games?

There's a chance AP could be fake claiming , yes.
Who do you think are scum right now?

Something still feels off about nero cain, GE, xx2008, profii, saud, and I've added garm onto that list.
If ap+fl+I vote together, saud basically would be like a doublevoter with us since he seems to be super sheeping FL.
The problem with xx being scum is that he declared dva scum at least once in his ISO. So.. that doesn't seem to make sense if he's scum? Because as scum why would he tell his 2 other (if going off 4-man scum team) teammates to kill 1 of his sr? I'd think he would want dva alive to pocket or mislynch her.
profi - from a skim of his ISO, he has voted xx, ct, carca - recently mentioned carca again in his post. Something off about profi.
Nero - what are your reads right now? profi said you're scum & you said you were doing re ISOs of scum pool.
GE - I think I've said enough about GE
Garm - said he needed to think, and vanished

[Performer]

Who was it that pushed on gamma earlier today?

I don't remember anyone pushing GE earlier today?
GE did a light push on nos, then said quickly that he didn't think nos was scum after a short interaction. That looked bizarre.

Nero what do you think of Garm's interaction with Creature in the very beginning of this game?

[Performer]

I think max is unlikely scum due to the track of seeing nothing, and that you targeted him. If you're town and he's scum, nothing could have happened since your rb would've been successful.

[Performer]

Without mod confirmation via something like a flip, the fact that he's been tunneling you today d2, could be taken either way - from town or from scum

[Performer]

@Max what other sr do you have now

[Performer]

Why are you allowing Saudade into your town block vote power thing but disregarding that I’ve voted for him when you say something is off about me

Saud has become scummy and according to him, he's willing to sheep FL today too . He's in a vote block with FL for sure, but not in my town block.
I did see you vote saud and you wanted his death multiple times, yes

----------
some of the things that stood out from prof's ISO:

Just read Maxous ISO - there are approx 5 references to Flubber where Maxous says he is unable to sort Flubber - this is not unreasonable as I felt the same tbh - what I don’t like though is that that is the first point Maxous makes about AP but Maxous should understand that is a fair position given that’s 3 of us who apparently felt that way and there was probably more
Dunno if I should go safety vote xx2008 or just go balls out and call out Maxous for that potentially shady case on AP

and

That’s another thing that bothered me - the thread has just opened and Maxous has gone from not posting much content in day 1 to flying straight in with a case on AP

Like I can’t be bothered to read up during night (busy IRL) so far I’m just reacting to people which is why I’m a bit scatty so far

Sure I guess people can make cases over night but what if that person got NKd - so that was making me think how did Maxous find all that so fast - perhaps planned

and

I’ll go Maxous / xx / Saudade in that order

One of the big problems in this game is many people are behaving in a way that's not helping reads. Max has ignored your scum call of him, so has xx, and saud has a destiny to follow FL to the end of the earth.

[Performer]

Also I think profii was sucking up to performer somewhat

you know very well that I have a blind spot for people who buddy me lol


Thinking this is the right vote.
VOTE: profii

[Performer]

After being saved by FL he's pretty much coasted. Don't think this play is indicative of his town play. I recall something about a flawless scum record but with scum lynched day 1 and prs forming a solid block I can see Sephiroth resigning here.

I could see that as well.

I also want to know, what is seph's scum meta? AP/RCE/anyone?

[Performer]

VOTE: Maxous

I dub it.

ScumMaxous never makes the kill there.

If I really think about it, if I just think about max & ap in a vacuum in the sense of itt posts before I outed results, then max is townier than ap . I don't get how scum max would be pushing against ap like this coming out of the d2 gate after he posted his reads that had ap as scum. He even did that push BEFORE I put out my results on max, so in a vacuum if we compare just itt posts, max is townier than ap the way I see it.

also if this max lynch goes through, a lily lynch would be nice

..............

[Performer]

In post 1757, Performer wrote:
I’ll go Maxous / xx / Saudade in that order


There is only one scum here and its not Max or Saunde.

Why are you miquoting me here?
That post was by ap.

And why do you think it's not max or saud, and that it's xx of the 3?

[Performer]

I guess win town points with FL, who likely doesn't make it to tomorrow anyways

He's also gonna be protected so thanks for letting us know you guys have a strongman.

VOTE: RCEnigma

Interesting. I don't see that as rce saying that as if he was scum and knew they had strongman, but I do like nero's interaction on pg 75.

@nero nvm about the xx question, just saw the 1851 post
-------------

prodge until tomorrow.

Mod's rule stated these don't count
------

pedit: blah, I mistook that as something from ap. Thanks for the corrections !

[Performer]

OK, Nero probably town for that erratic behaviour. I've seen him do that more often than not. Of course, this also means REC is Town bc when Nero is in that mood he almost always tunnels Town.

you aren't even in this game.

OK, Nero probably town for that erratic behaviour. I've seen him do that more often than not. Of course, this also means REC is Town bc when Nero is in that mood he almost always tunnels Town.

No, he's not. Get out of here you clown *AP kicks A50 in the butt*

[Performer]

I want to see what seph says about GE & AP on his wagon. Not sure what to make of Nero on RCE yet. Day 2 ends in about 3 days...damn.

[Performer]

According to post 1382, eod 1 vcs off the flubb wagon:

xx2008(3):shortaru/nero cain/creature;RCEnigma;Nosferatu

ofrhz(4):Flubbernugget;Maxous;xx2008;Sephiroth

NoLynch(1):Shattiel;

Not Voting:Saudade (though this probably doesn't mean anything because FL suddenly quick hammered flubb)
-----------
I think it should be seph/xx/nero/probably ge today.

VOTE: Sephiroth


Interestingly, GE was on the flubb wagon at eod 1. Iirc, he was against bussing in his scum pt in the NY 213 large normal. So I don't think scum GE would be bussing on d1 like that?...iirc, when he found it truly necessary, then he was considering bussing Golden Robster in their NY 213 scum pt. Thinking about it more, scum GE being on scum Flubb the way d1 was going, makes less sense the more I think about it.

[Performer]

What makes Seph more compelling than Nero, Perf?

He's trying to figure things out and pushing that RCE is scum, which I like, I think that's townie of him. So I thought he's a little less likely than Seph to be scum.

Seph has become lurk coasting with the "ask perf about alien jailkeeping modifier" and the prodge post (which didn't even count for satisfying the rule).

[Performer]

VOTE: RCE

[Performer]

I'm also a Joat, last night I disloyal vigged Maxous. He's not dead so there's my readflip from day 1 to day 2.

What in the.

[Performer]

I was going to propose AP rbs me tonight with performer tracking me. This either confirms ALL 3 claims AND Maxous or exposes 1 scum between myself and AP.

I don't think this is a good idea...I'd rather we not do the 3-tpr dance , and target outside the 4 tprs (including FL).

I'm also a Joat, last night I disloyal vigged Maxous

If you had a guilty on Max why would you be voting anyone but Max?

wouldn't a town disloyal vig have killed max if max was scum?
Then again, if ap is really town disloyal rb, then he could've blocked max, followed by the track result or the vig action...not sure how the moderator would sequence those 3 night actions though.

[Performer]

What do you think of Profi wanting the days wagons on me and confirmed town Max?

All that's happened including the RCE claimed disloyal vig role, makes me go back to profi now.
VOTE: profii

Also I don't think shatt/saud/seph are town, I think at least 1 scum in there. The way they continue lying low and doing nothing, is simply suspect.

[Performer]

Yeah in hindsight it wouldn't work the way I thought it would. We can split the playerlist three ways: perf 1st third AP 2nd third and I'll take the end.

Seeing as there are 19 total....
19 minus 4 tprs minus 2 dead from phase one minus 1 more lynch today minus maxous (who was already targeted by 3 people) = 11 people for 3 folks to roleblock/check.

So...4 for one person, 4 for another, 3 for the last person . Going by the above formula, I can rb one of the first 4 on the full playerlist, AP could do rb one of the next 4, and rce can do one of the 3 remaining.
---------
So in practice, what it looks like is like this:
-If xx/carca/garm/saud are still alive by eod today, I'll rb on one of them
-If nero/seph/nos/ge are still alive by eod today, ap puts rb on one of them
-And finally for the last 3, if shatt/ct/ofrhz are still alive by eod today, rce can disloyal vig one of them

xx2008
Performer
Carcalilly
Maxous
Garmr
Inferno390 Saudade
CreatureShortaruNero Cain
Sephiroth
Nosferatu
FA_Q2Gamma Emerald
AP
DS Shattiel
Completly Trustworthy
Flavor Leaf
profii
Flubbernugget
DVa
RCEnigma
ofrhz

[Performer]

Something I just thought of that's very peculiar , is that RCE said he's a JOAT that has disloyal vig. So...a combination of ap & my role. Hm...

[Performer]

I'm not sure who reviewed this game but wow, the creativity for this game's roles....

[Performer]

I'm also a Joat, last night I disloyal vigged Maxous. He's not dead so there's my readflip from day 1 to day 2.

Actually thinking about it my role has about the same utility, so I’m CCing this.
I am a Town Ascetic Disloyal Ninja Babysitter. So I have ability to target a player at night, and if I die and they are scum they die too. So I’m kinda like a disloyal bomb. This role is why I was upset at the quickhammer, as I wanted to crumb a target for last night.
Now why does the mod include a one shot disloyal vig with a role that kinda does the same thing but with more intrigue (the role has to die to take effect) and more effectiveness (Ascetic means I cannot be roleblocked). The simple answer? He didn’t.
VOTE: RCEnigma

On first impression to hearing this claim, I must reply with the below:

This G A I M sure is M E S S E D U P.

[Performer]

I have three abilities, a disloyal vig, a cop check which I'll be using, and an ability I'd rather not specify yet if it can be helped.

I don't think your outing of the cop ability of your JOAT abilities, was necessary here.

This G A I M is M E S S ED UP .

[Performer]

I'm also a Joat, last night I disloyal vigged Maxous. He's not dead so there's my readflip from day 1 to day 2.

Actually thinking about it my role has about the same utility, so I’m CCing this.
I am a Town Ascetic Disloyal Ninja Babysitter. So I have ability to target a player at night, and if I die and they are scum they die too. So I’m kinda like a disloyal bomb. This role is why I was upset at the quickhammer, as I wanted to crumb a target for last night.
Now why does the mod include a one shot disloyal vig with a role that kinda does the same thing but with more intrigue (the role has to die to take effect) and more effectiveness (Ascetic means I cannot be roleblocked). The simple answer? He didn’t.
VOTE: RCEnigma

I followed RCE's scum game in the newbie with FL, and your scum game with mariar (fake claimed parity cop with you fake claiming some weird bus driver role). So I wouldn't put it above rce or ge to be fake claiming....

At the moment , I don't even understand how exactly your role works or if it even makes sense.
-----------

what does ninja and ascetic do... wouldnt any attempt to track/watch/motion detect/whatever fail on just either 1 of those modifiers, why have both

As far as I know, ninja means anyone checking their actions , should get no result.
Regarding ascetic, anyone targeting them with non-kill ability, will be ineffective. Certain roles targeting an ascetic don't even get a message back. Anyway, that's more game mechanics than anything .

[Performer]

Ok after some thinking it through , GE's role makes sense now.

dva: rolestopper n2 & n3
GE: ascetic disloyal ninja babysitter
RCE: disloyal vig
AP: disloyal rb
me: multitasking JOAT
FL: IC
prof - claimed vt

vs

flubb - informed goon
3(?) more scum, with a likely strongman
----------
My additional 2 cents:
I'm going to go with the belief that our results on max should soft clear him, and that all of the non-FL and non-dva claimed roles, are town. This is because of rule 15 and the mod's other rule that after today, remaining days are just 7 days long. This seems to go in hand with the RCE vig and GE's bomb role .

Although....wouldn't GE's role have an additional "bomb" wording or something in it instead, if he explodes scum?? What in the world?? Why does the role not have that in the name.

[Performer]

Wait a minute, so if RCE really is town, then GE - you can protect town too right? Or can you only explode scum?

[Performer]

What the hell is this game? Is everybody disloyal? This means scum have a GF 99% of the time. How else do they counter 3 disloyal PRs?

.............this raises a big alarm bell.

Godfather is ABSOLUTELY not in normal guidelines.

[Performer]

What the hell is this game? Is everybody disloyal? This means scum have a GF 99% of the time. How else do they counter 3 disloyal PRs?

.............this raises a big alarm bell.

Godfather is ABSOLUTELY not in normal guidelines.

as in it's not allowed in normal games anymore

[Performer]

Lol can we talk about ct for a bit.

CT is typically a hard to read guy. I think he's town here though. The way his reads and votes are happening, make me think he's approaching the game from town . I don't see CT being the type of scum player to bus flubb on d1. Another point of his scum play I observed was that he likes to poke at people and vote them way later, which is something I'm not getting from his ISO.

He's also a relatively new player to FM and newer players typically don't change their meta that easily.

Cry me a river

Good Justin Timberlake song.
--------
Thinking out loud: regarding xx, I've been growing more suspect of him. He's staying quiet still , and I strongly disagree with the arguments made that he's rookie town. More like rookie scum.

[Performer]

What the hell is this game? Is everybody disloyal? This means scum have a GF 99% of the time. How else do they counter 3 disloyal PRs?

.............this raises a big alarm bell.

Godfather is ABSOLUTELY not in normal guidelines.

You are correct. I'm way out of my focus. Give me a couple more hours to get my shit together. Sorry.

...............................................

[Performer]

AP if you really end up being town this game, I don't know what to say lol.

[Performer]

Who did you target n1 Gamma by the way?

Sephiroth

.....
so this should be a soft clear for seph

[Performer]

AP if you really end up being town this game, I don't know what to say lol.

You -at least- know that I am for real about being out of synch, so there's that. Give me a break.

do know that you are being real about being out of sync....
anyway that's off topic...lol
-------

Ok so if that was real hammer, I just want to say I am planning to rb between xx/carca/garm.

GE/RCE/AP please figure out what you guys want to do so we don't target same person.

[Performer]

Why?

because if seph is scum & ge is town, then seph should've died/exploded

[Performer]

What the hell is this game? Is everybody disloyal? This means scum have a GF 99% of the time. How else do they counter 3 disloyal PRs?

.............this raises a big alarm bell.

Godfather is ABSOLUTELY not in normal guidelines.

y does this ring alarm bells anyway

Looked like he was fluff posting about mentioning godfather. NRG absolutely doesn't pass a role like that into a game, or any explicitly non-normal roles.

[Performer]

I'll still target between Shattiel/CT/ofhrz

ok

[Performer]

My role doesnt kill unless I die

your role is so confusing...

[Performer]

We don't get a result from Gamma unless he's night killed.

We use this to our advantage.

It is simple, though.

Gamma can protect someone, but if he is killed, it’ll kill who he’s Protecting along with him. He can’t be tracked or roleblocked.

And it only works on scum because disloyal

This makes me further worried that this is a multiball game, if GE can protect only scum ... then if someone shoots his target or him, then they both die. Makes me worried it's multiball.

Games filled with a WIFOM inducing roles are great. Requires actual analysis on play.

I agree, it typically gets people more involved itt ("in the thread" for those who don't know).
--------
@AP I'm with RCE's suggestion that rbing a tpr isn't the way to go.

[Performer]

This makes me further worried that this is a multiball game, if GE can protect only scum ... then if someone shoots his target or him, then they both die. Makes me worried it's multiball.

Actually, then doesn't that mean if he babysits RCE and they're both town, then....only one dies? Hmm that's actually quite helpful too.

[Performer]

I have a question AP, do you think that them having different abilities means anything? I've never been in a game with multiple town JOAT's before, so I'm wondering if them having the same abilities would make sense or if one of the JOAT claims could be more scummy due to their 1-shot abilities being more useful for scum than town. I believe that disloyal vig sounds somewhat towny for instance because mafia vigs are rare.

In terms of multiple JOATs, this is the 1st time I've ever seen it in a normal game, or ANY game on or offsite.....which is also why I said this setup is super creative.

Regrading mafia vigs, I played in a 14-player game with 2 scum vigilantes. Iirc shortly after, mafia vigilantes were declared non-normal . So, scum vigilantes are not used in normal games.

[Performer]

Vigilantes are considered Normal on mafiascum.net if their kill flavour is indistinguishable from other factions'. As of 9 November 2015, they must also be town aligned.

The normal guidelines are followed strictly.

[Performer]

CT and xx (if they both end up being town) remind me of my beginning days...still new in games as rookie town and I thought I knew more than I actually did, which was not as much as I thought I knew. I wish people would have elaborated more to help out in those early games... lol. You guys are lucky.

[Performer]

Maybe that's correct, but I still don't think there are two JOATS. It's like having two queens on a chessboard.

It's perfectly possible. After seeing 2 scum vigs, a mason tracker and a mason vig, a pair of masons with a jailkeeper with an odd-night cop with an ascetic townie, and even more funky setups in my time with the NRG....it's definitely possible in terms of the 2 joats alone.

But that's the thing, we have to not just go off of what's possible in terms of setup spec, and we need to work with multiple factors to scumhunt.

[Performer]

@JOATS, are your abilities one-shot?

I don't like this question.

[Performer]

@xx & ct: one of the thing I found out the hard way is that if we try to outguess the moderator, it's difficult.

All I know is what I can base from my experience. For instance, 2 scum vs 12 town, 3 scum vs 5 prs, 3 scum vs 6 prs, 4 scum vs 5-8 prs, 3 scum vs 3 or 4 prs, and so on. It really depends on what sort of power scum teams have too.
There was a large normal , NY 213 (a good read), that had something like mafia rolecop, backup mafia rolecop, universal backup, and a goon iirc....vs vts, town friendly neighbor, town vengeful neighbor, town IC, 2 masons. That was 4 scum vs 5 prs.

Generally if scum have strong roles, there is a town pr per scum role or even 2 town prs per scum role....just the way setups have been balanced via the NRG in normal games.