Large Normal 223 | New Beginnings | GAME OVER

[Billy Pilgrim]

Oooh man, this is gonna be fun.

VOTE: Hectic

Because I don't want him to survive.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Oh man, hectic and hopkirk are both going to make this game fun to read and infuriating to play. I don't have a clue how to read them, but it's enjoyable at least. Can't tell if carcalilly was joking, because that was a bit LAMIST. Carca were you joking?

VOTE: Carcalilly

Hectic's survivor crumb had me dying.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Oh man, hectic and hopkirk are both going to make this game fun to read and infuriating to play. I don't have a clue how to read them, but it's enjoyable at least. Can't tell if carcalilly was joking, because that was a bit LAMIST. Carca were you joking?

VOTE: Carcalilly

Hectic's survivor crumb had me dying.

Point out what you mean by "that"

Post 56

[Billy Pilgrim]

Oh man, hectic and hopkirk are both going to make this game fun to read and infuriating to play. I don't have a clue how to read them, but it's enjoyable at least. Can't tell if carcalilly was joking, because that was a bit LAMIST. Carca were you joking?

VOTE: Carcalilly

Hectic's survivor crumb had me dying.

bad post

vote: billy pilgrim

What's bad about it?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Oh man, hectic and hopkirk are both going to make this game fun to read and infuriating to play. I don't have a clue how to read them, but it's enjoyable at least. Can't tell if carcalilly was joking, because that was a bit LAMIST. Carca were you joking?

VOTE: Carcalilly

Hectic's survivor crumb had me dying.

bad post

vote: billy pilgrim

JEEP's guide to catching mafia told me that naked votes with little explanation like this are usually bad.
Do you dislike his post because he's LAMISTing it up and not scumhunting?

i don't know what LAMIST means, tbh.

i didn't like the post because it was a long way of saying "i have no reads" while trying to appear to be substantive. and the questioning of carca + the immediate vote makes me feel like he genuinely wasn't interested in learning carca's perspective, and did it as filler.

is hectic an alt

no

he's town then (or rather, not lying about being survivor)

How does this knowledge affect your Hectic read?
I liked your entrance.

because his tone is extremely earnest and passionate about the game. but if it was an old user doing a "haha i'm so new" gimmick then it wouldn't be as genuine

What if he was an experienced mafia player, not necessarily with the experience being from mafiascum, with a 'sordid' history of memeing, and who had a humorous discussion with me last week about the flailing statistics.

he's probably still town in that case. i'm sure some of the stuff he's saying is a meme, though.

Ok makes sense. It's early, so this was basically my way of directing a question to Carcalilly while we are still in LIVS. LAMIST means look at me I'm so town. Her comment about worrying about Hectic pointing out breadcrumbs in response to what I thought was a pretty obvious joke came across to me as her trying to score easy townpoints. That's why I asked if it was a joke. And I didn't read it as a joke initially, which is why I directed the vote there.

And as for my comments that I can't read Hectic and Hopkirk, I mean that. The jokey posts come across as though they're not game solving, but they're legit nai, so sorting them is tough. Yet for some reason I decided to torture myself by replacing into this game.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I think pilgrim is preying upon the fact that I took hectic for a genuinely clueless player for a minute

Ok, that's fair. In fact that's probably the right way to read him at first.

UNVOTE: Carcalilly

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Billy: do you think I'm planning to meme the entire game and never give serious reads?

And as for my comments that I can't read Hectic and Hopkirk, I mean that. The jokey posts come across as though they're not game solving, but they're legit nai, so sorting them is tough. Yet for some reason I decided to torture myself by replacing into this game.

This doesn't sound like a super natural complaint on day one (and I'd voted people/expressed some reads at this point).

Ito be quite honest, I've got very limited experience with both of you. And I'm not entirely sure where the jokes stop and the serious reads begin. I kinda felt like some of the reads may be sarcastic.

[Billy Pilgrim]

showing my inexperience here, but what the hell is a green pm?

Oooh there's some definite slips here. Carca mentioned green pms. Not sure why. . . Though from post 1 she had a sample of the VT so not sure if that was some sort of test. I think this may be a townslip though.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ok makes sense. It's early, so this was basically my way of directing a question to Carcalilly while we are still in LIVS. LAMIST means look at me I'm so town. Her comment about worrying about Hectic pointing out breadcrumbs in response to what I thought was a pretty obvious joke came across to me as her trying to score easy townpoints. That's why I asked if it was a joke. And I didn't read it as a joke initially, which is why I directed the vote there.

And as for my comments that I can't read Hectic and Hopkirk, I mean that. The jokey posts come across as though they're not game solving, but they're legit nai, so sorting them is tough. Yet for some reason I decided to torture myself by replacing into this game.

Could I ask what LIV means please? I don't see it anywhere in the wiki.
If you believe the jokey posts are NAI, can't you just disregard them?

I do disregard them except as a source of great humor. I could tell that it was frustrating Carcalilly though which is why I offered that.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm liking Carcalilly and youaregreat. I feel like I can kinda lean Hopkirk hectic and gamma town.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Hectic. Name 5 or more normal/non-bastard roles. all but one of which aren't your role, and one that is. Randomize the order. I want to see if I'm right about you.

Bulletproof Jester
Survivor Miller
Lynchproof Lyncher
Town Bus Driver
Mafia Day Vigilante

irl. Unless you know to the contrary?

I remember specific examples of him doing it as town for sure, but can't actually specifically remember him doing it as mafia. I feel like he has done so though.

interesting how all are different factions, idk how to take this information though. nice list though

I went and checked the wiki I don't think a single one of these is a legal role in a normal game.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Btw I think Hop's collection of sig quote attempts is honestly one of the towniest things he has posted

Is this a townread or shade.

I was just going to say we had a YAG Carca Hopkirk TOWNBLOCK. I like the way you think Hectic. That might mean we need to lynch you before you use your dastardly charisma to infiltrate it and play us like suckers.

Have you ever been wrong about someone in a town block?

According to "M" 's frustrated declarations like 'I hate how this works. It shouldn't work. He just says it and they keep turning out to be right. Probability doesn't work like this. He literally started the game by pointing to people and saying townblock.' Not recently.

Who is this M

Someone we know irl who has made comments on how 'townblock?' 'townblock!' 'Townblock' (accompanied by knowing nods) really shouldn't have as good of a track record as it does.

@Billy: do you think I'm planning to meme the entire game and never give serious reads?

And as for my comments that I can't read Hectic and Hopkirk, I mean that. The jokey posts come across as though they're not game solving, but they're legit nai, so sorting them is tough. Yet for some reason I decided to torture myself by replacing into this game.

This doesn't sound like a super natural complaint on day one (and I'd voted people/expressed some reads at this point).

Ito be quite honest, I've got very limited experience with both of you. And I'm not entirely sure where the jokes stop and the serious reads begin. I kinda felt like some of the reads may be sarcastic.

Without looking back at my iso to be 100%, I don't think any of my reads weren't serious. I feel like you're grouping my/Hectic here due to the jokey nature when we're playing quite differently in substance.

-Hop

Hop's right

-Kirk

showing my inexperience here, but what the hell is a green pm?

Oooh there's some definite slips here. Carca mentioned green pms. Not sure why. . . Though from post 1 she had a sample of the VT so not sure if that was some sort of test. I think this may be a townslip though.

Surely not knowing what a green pm is would be a scumslip? I don't think it's either, but I don't get why it would be a townslip (please explain)?

I'm liking Carcalilly and youaregreat. I feel like I can kinda lean Hopkirk hectic and gamma town.

help my townblock is getting buddied (I like gamma too)

after skimming Kirk's iso I'm starting to think that my paranoia was pretty unbased. But it still exists and I dont like it.

Wow. It? It? It? I have a name you know.

@Gamma

You remember the game where I rocked it and nailed the entire scum team by day 3 and no one listened to me? Yeah I get the feeling this game won't be like that. I feel as wonky as

FB

. So want to help me find some scum. Because I'm a little lost and I feel like your town.

Can you give it a go now? Nobody expects you to pull it off so there's no shame in being wrong, but imagine how impressed we'd be if you were right.

-Hop

Look, I never put weight on slips, but this one is interesting me now, because I think the experienced players may have got caught out. So I think YAG not knowing what a green pm was was a townslip.

I think Carca saying that two players had green pms was a scum slip, and I think Hopkirk is either also slipping or just getting me to out this, so here's the sample pm from post 1.

Here is an example of a Vanilla Townie role PM:

Welcome, ____, to Large Normal 223. Your role is Vanilla Townie.

You have no special powers.

You win when all mafia members are dead and at least one town member remains alive. The game thread is HERE.

I don't know if that's gonna get the coding right, (I'm doing this from my phone) but the town pm was white. I know that it's normally green, so I think Carca slipped scum based on a guess from experience. I think YAG was confused by the green pm phrase because she's new and she didn't get a green pm this time around. Hop, why'd you ask how it was a slip?

VOTE: Carcalilly

[Billy Pilgrim]

Surely not knowing what a green pm is would be a scumslip? I don't think it's either, but I don't get why it would be a townslip (please explain)?

If we are going to make a point about this then.... if anything.... Billy made a scum slip tbh

Where was my scumslip?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I don't think that's a scumslip. I'm assumed green PM to mean a town PM, I don't think the colour of the PM is important, and I think Carca was just assuming green=town for the way she used it.

Basically, I think the use of 'green' wasn't in a literal sense of the role PM being

green

.

Yeah, I know what she meant, but she said green. I noticed right off the bat that my town pm was white. And that was unique, because usually they're green. So if I was gonna say I thought someone was town, I'd have said that and wouldn't have said they got a green pm, because I know that in this game they didn't get a green pm, even though usually it would have been green. The whole point of a slip is that it's a mistake that shows allignment. I think that in this game not knowing that the town pm was white is a slip.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I liked tchills opening. I liked Elly's posts after the beginning exchange with Hectic.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Gamma - I agree that I'm probably having trouble working my way into this game. It's ALOT larger than I'm used to, and it's insanely active. I think games been up for 36 hours and we're on page 22 already. So I'll be along.

Pedit: I'm not playing devil's advocate. My pm jumped out at me this time, because I'm used to them being green or red. Not sure why that wasn't noticeable for others, but it seems like everyone's letting this slide, and your play felt like you were sorting. That felt like the first scummy thing I could see, so now I'm left with nothing.

UNVOTE: Carcalilly

[Billy Pilgrim]

Could I ask what LIV means please?

Short for LIVERPOOL. Check his avatar!

The greatest city and football team in the world fyi

profii confirmed a townie.

Does this remain intact with strength? Have anyone else in that pool?

Pretty sure that's a joke since A50 is a Reds supporter as well.

[Billy Pilgrim]

pilgrim I have no problem with your on and off votes on me but out of all my posts you could see alignment in you're just picking ones that were miscommunicated towards you.

my advice specifically for you is to start reading people's actions (collectively produced through their posts) rather than what they said that one time.

like right now you should totally help us crack down on jjd's gimmick hiding, or hell, if you can find something wild yourself that'd be way better.

Pedit: Roster that vote came outta left field. Care to explain it?

I agree that it feels like Judge is hiding behind the gimmick a bit. But at this stage, there's not alot of voting activity, so I'm not sure what actions you want me to focus on. The color thing looked significant, but I'm the only one that thought so.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I noticed right off the bat that my town pm was white.

You use mafBlack for skin, right? So everything is white characters on a black background?

Yes. Except in my PM, there is usually a different color for my alignment. This time it was all white text.

[Billy Pilgrim]

To be fair, there is a sample pm

Not the first game that i'd have played where people didn't read the introductory posts.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Gamma - I agree that I'm probably having trouble working my way into this game. It's ALOT larger than I'm used to, and it's insanely active. I think games been up for 36 hours and we're on page 22 already. So I'll be along.

Pedit: I'm not playing devil's advocate. My pm jumped out at me this time, because I'm used to them being green or red. Not sure why that wasn't noticeable for others, but it seems like everyone's letting this slide, and your play felt like you were sorting. That felt like the first scummy thing I could see, so now I'm left with nothing.

UNVOTE: Carcalilly

Wait why didn't you vote me here. Carcalilly using 'green pm' to mean town makes sense, but I clearly didn't realize there wasn't colour in the pm- as you mentioned earlier.

-Hop

Couldn't tell whether yours was a test or whether it was a slip. Given that there had already been discussion I thought you may have been fishing for reasoning which I'm pretty sure I mentioned in my post. I thought hers was the bigger outlier since she used it. You defending was suspect, but I figured it may have been you trying to draw out my reasoning.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I think Carca saying that two players had green pms was a scum slip, and I think Hopkirk is either also slipping or just getting me to out this, so here's the sample pm from post 1.

Here is an example of a Vanilla Townie role PM:

Welcome, ____, to Large Normal 223. Your role is Vanilla Townie.

You have no special powers.

You win when all mafia members are dead and at least one town member remains alive. The game thread is HERE.

I don't know if that's gonna get the coding right, (I'm doing this from my phone) but the town pm was white. I know that it's normally green, so I think Carca slipped scum based on a guess from experience. I think YAG was confused by the green pm phrase because she's new and she didn't get a green pm this time around. Hop, why'd you ask how it was a slip?

VOTE: Carcalilly

this seems like a pretty big reach to me. i don't like that you're assuming the most uncharitable explanation for carca's actions while simultaneously giving the most charitable explanation for mine. especially since you implied you thought carcailly was town in #366.

it's good that you ended up unvoting, but this continues the familiar pattern of billy seeming to push on the easiest targets he can find

pffft elements I might be starting to agree with you on the jjd thing for a different reason

Stay focused. A reputable Judge like myself would NEVER break the LAW. I ENFORCE the law. I AM THE LAW.

I'm agreeing with whomever said JJD is hiding behind his gimmick to not play the game

i like this post because i was having similar feelings about JJD. i don't mind gimmicks, but it feels like he's going out of his way to avoid gamesolving. and his scum-list in #537 is just lazy. he implies that he has no reason to townread anybody in it, which would imply that

every other

player towntold.

People voting judge look like people that want to stay busy by voting an active player that's not been talked about as far as widely town read goes.

Why are ppl voting judge? I haven't seen anything from them scummy.

Do people really not think skellen or YOUAREGREAT are scummy?

why do you think skellen & i are scummy? skellen has posted

two things

. skellen's opening post pinged me too, but i would expect better of Tchill as town than to push on easy targets without clarification.

on top of that, tchill seems to scumread the fact that i had a gut-scumread on skellen's opening post. which is ..weird.

quite sad you are great never reacted to me.

i must have missed it.

People voting judge look like people that want to stay busy by voting an active player that's not been talked about as far as widely town read goes.

Why are ppl voting judge? I haven't seen anything from them scummy.

Do people really not think skellen or YOUAREGREAT are scummy?

I have some concerns with skellen but their lack of posing worries me.

how is YAG any bad?

Yag is a very naughty girl.

Surely not knowing what a green pm is would be a scumslip? I don't think it's either, but I don't get why it would be a townslip (please explain)?

If we are going to make a point about this then.... if anything.... Billy made a scum slip tbh

Where was my scumslip?

Will explain day 2

feels like a cop-out

pffft elements I might be starting to agree with you on the jjd thing for a different reason

Stay focused. A reputable Judge like myself would NEVER break the LAW. I ENFORCE the law. I AM THE LAW.

I'm agreeing with whomever said JJD is hiding behind his gimmick to not play the game

That's juicy enough to sheep
VOTE: Judge Joseph

I think JJD is town rn actually

why?

Easiest targets? I pushed one case, based on a perceived scumslip from someone who a few posts earlier I was townreading and up to that point, and well after the slip that I identified I might add was being townread by most of the people who had binned her. How was that an easy push to make? And if I made a charitable interpretation it was of Hopkirk, not you. Yours was the logical read from reading Carca as a scumslip. Could you walk me through your analysis here? Because I'm not getting it.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Judges recent posts are making me like that slot more. I think I've already said I like tchill's slot. I'm not sure why YAzg keeps voting my townreads, but it's definitely making me more skeptical of her slot.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Billy: I notice you didn’t seem to respond to my argument that if town didn’t get coloured pms then neither did scum, so it’s not possible to ‘townslip’ based on pm colour. Do you still count the ‘townslip’ as a townslip?
@Cliff: If you got a problem with me and you’re feeling too brave to hide behind your buddy Rick like usual then I’m right here.

UNVOTE: Judge

??Kop
??Cliff Booth
??Sharon Tate
??EeveeLution Army
??Fish Monger
??rosterfoster
??Garmr
??bob3141
??Skellen

This is a list of players that are not actually playing this game yet. If any pf them has something to contribute it's better to say it no rather than after a wagon had formed on you.

I went and quickly skimmed your post couldn't find like any scum reads only town reads. Do you think the entire scum read is in this list?

This question feels odd.

VOTE: Judge Joseph Dread

So what is your reason for voting him.

Sorry, did you find nothing to comment on in the 500 posts between where you were at and this?

VOTE: Skellen

-Kirk

That seems like a good point. I don't usually put much weight on slips, this one just stuck out at me in the moment. And I didn't even think about how the lack of color means that it couldn't be a townslip.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Judges recent posts are making me like that slot more. I think I've already said I like tchill's slot. I'm not sure why YAzg keeps voting my townreads, but it's definitely making me more skeptical of her slot.

My gut is telling me that this is simply you trying to back track on a push. While also using it to stear towards another. Makes me your scum thinking after Judges claims it would be to risky to push there. With you instead hoping to stear instead to another player that has been pushing him. All the while making a point of no longer scum reading him. So what made you like his slot more, that would of been the case before?

I just dont get why the first part was even posted. And on the later half care to tell us why YAzg pushes on those players you townread makes you as you put it skeptical of her slot. So why a scum leaning over a leaning toward town making misguided pushes. And what in the posts makes you feel its not genuine scum hunting


Your the other player that has pinged me so far. There is just this uneasy feeling im getting on your slot.

Did I really push Judge? I said there wasnt what I would consider game solvey content there, then it changed. If you don't see a difference in Judge's content then I guess this makes sense, but it started to look alot more like sorting and much less memey. And I posted that part because I had answered a question from Carcalilly about his slot earlier.

I liked the way she came in the game, and immediately started sorting. I probably read too much into the comment about the green pm. But if someone is scumreading your townreads, that is tough to square. I didn't say I'm scumreading her, I said it's making me more skeptical of the slot, which means I need to re-read it with a fresh eye.

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: skellen

I claim charismatic midget. At night I'm allowed 2 actions that I can do at the same time (very interesting ik) I drink and ik things. I get access to the knowing early. I know skellen is scum. Lynch skellen.

You voted the lurker that's V/LA?

[Billy Pilgrim]

hey Tchill look buddy ol' man you're a great asset to this game but within the whole YAG vs Tchill thing I have to side with the latter.

Honestly your last couple of posts were good. I town binned him because I felt like he came into an inactive game and started trying to sort, but this puts that into question. Why don't you think it's enough to read him red?

[Billy Pilgrim]

hey Tchill look buddy ol' man you're a great asset to this game but within the whole YAG vs Tchill thing I have to side with the latter.

Honestly your last couple of posts were good. I town binned him because I felt like he came into an inactive game and started trying to sort, but this puts that into question. Why don't you think it's enough to read him red?

Precisely why you town binned him. This is one interaction between another player that didn't sit good, but there's a lot of other interactions (that I haven't looked into fully

yet

, mind you) that are pretty good at plain level looking.
I might change my mind after digging deeper because I have yet to know what's actually there, but I have to finish my other thoughts before I loose them.

You know this might have a point, a scum in another game got pretty far doing what YAG has done at replace in

Did you mean YAG or tchill? Because I think that both myself and Lilly were talking about tchill here. I know I was.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I re-read tchill's iso. On second read, the opening isn't that great. Then immediately after his catch-up he highlights YAG's posts and starts pushing her. Problem is that as he completed his catch-up he was confused how anyone was getting anything AI from it, but then his push of YAG lasted a number of pages and was a read he was trying to push. Don't know why if it was worth pushing that hard it didn't jump out at him during his catch-up. I also agree with Lilly's analysis of his original post shading YAG, I just re-analyzed the opening and it wasn't as remarkable. I think it just contrasted in real time because everyone seemed to be posting jokey type content, so his content contrasted that, but it wasn't all that substantive.

VOTE: tchill

[Billy Pilgrim]

I liked Hopkirk today. He's right that my slot's been terrible. I didn't really have much to go on today. Carca's probably right that I'm asking weird questions, I am sort of lost in this game. The only wagon that existed was roster, and I wasn't that into that one, but this one feels better, not a huge fan of Cliff's slot, and I'm liking the people on this wagon so far.

VOTE: Cliff

[Billy Pilgrim]

I liked Hopkirk today. He's right that my slot's been terrible. I didn't really have much to go on today. Carca's probably right that I'm asking weird questions, I am sort of lost in this game. The only wagon that existed was roster, and I wasn't that into that one, but this one feels better, not a huge fan of Cliff's slot, and I'm liking the people on this wagon so far.

VOTE: Cliff

So what makes you not like his slot. Dont think you mentioned him before this game.

Are you just voting for cliff because of who was already voting for him. If so why? What about there cases did you agree with.

There's really nothing that jumps out as town to me from his slot. I also like the two slots he is voting. I was townleaning Elly, I like hopkirk's slot, and I've liked Gamma's slot. All seemed to be pushing the game forward. I didn't hop on the roster wagon, because I didn't see the point in pushing a slot that was gonna be replaced, and Cliff has been around but not posting much great content.

[Billy Pilgrim]

besides that I have a little list, in order. town top.

gamma
hectic/hopkirk
garmr
yag/profi
Bob/billy
Jjd
Dalton/Kop
Eevee/Eleme
Cliff
Dave/tchill

I'm aware I haven't explained the lowest end much yet. I'll do that someday.

Why is hectic so high?

[Billy Pilgrim]

besides that I have a little list, in order. town top.

gamma
hectic/hopkirk
garmr
yag/profi
Bob/billy
Jjd
Dalton/Kop
Eevee/Eleme
Cliff
Dave/tchill

I'm aware I haven't explained the lowest end much yet. I'll do that someday.

Why is hectic so high?

This question still stands, because I liked Hectic's catch-up this morning, but this post was before his catch-up.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I liked Hopkirk today. He's right that my slot's been terrible. I didn't really have much to go on today. Carca's probably right that I'm asking weird questions, I am sort of lost in this game. The only wagon that existed was roster, and I wasn't that into that one, but this one feels better, not a huge fan of Cliff's slot, and I'm liking the people on this wagon so far.

VOTE: Cliff

I don't like this vote, and also the explanation isn't up to the vote either. I just feel that it is a clean sheep vote because he likes the people that are on the wagon, I understand following your town reads, but there could be a possibility that there could be scum on the wagon that he is town reading. Or the other possibility is that Billy is scum and can have that confidence in the people on the wagon are town because he would know for sure they are town. He didn't like the Rooster wagon, but he would know that it would look bad for sheeping onto that wagon because of the manner and way the votes went.

He also states that he is not a fan of the Cliff slot, but hasn't really divulged into why he doesn't like that slot, or also interact with Cliff to debate with him to why he doesn't specifically like that slot.

VOTE: Billy

The 1 on 1's aren't really my style. I like engaging people with their reads of me, because I feel like that can give me info, but I'll mostly sit back and ask a few questions. I can only do that with more active players. At the time the Cliff wagon formed, he was a very low content slot. And his early responses were almost deliberately provacative. Like pointing out that 2 scum were on his wagon but not naming them. So if you're looking for me to 1v1 someone that may happen, but probably not early in the game.

[Billy Pilgrim]

besides that I have a little list, in order. town top.

gamma
hectic/hopkirk
garmr
yag/profi
Bob/billy
Jjd
Dalton/Kop
Eevee/Eleme
Cliff
Dave/tchill

I'm aware I haven't explained the lowest end much yet. I'll do that someday.

Why is hectic so high?

Do you not have a strong townread on Hectic like me?

And I'm pretty sure, in plain terms, the self-vote was an attempt to draw attention back to the game during a dry time/standstill.

Well to me it looked more like him trying to make the wagon and the people on it look stupid. It was a gambit, nothing more than that. To say that it was this attempt to breathe life back into the game is BS

And I'm pretty sure, in plain terms, the self-vote was an attempt to draw attention back to the game during a dry time/standstill.

Well to me it looked more like him trying to make the wagon and the people on it look stupid. It was a gambit, nothing more than that. To say that it was this attempt to breathe life back into the game is BS

why are you so close minded?

What I said earlier about your selfvote^

Probably should have iso'd before I asked the question. Hectic's iso looks good. Shit, he's going to be impossible to read, because when I think about his play, I'm remembering the jokes. But when I look at his iso, there's a decent bit of content spliced in with the jokes. So no Hectic, I literally can't ignore the jokes, because they make the game enjoyable so I want to read them, but my brain is associating them with your play and it made me have you more null when you should have been a strong town lean.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@AaronFrost I agree that taking care of college stuff first is the right priority. Replacing in is good for the site, but it's better when you do it only when you're ready to play.

What was this in response to?

[Billy Pilgrim]

@AaronFrost I agree that taking care of college stuff first is the right priority. Replacing in is good for the site, but it's better when you do it only when you're ready to play.

What was this in response to?

Nevermind, found it. Damn this game is unwieldy.

[Billy Pilgrim]

If anything y’all probably neighbors and one of you decided to do a mason gambit instead and the other went “great idea!”

@Rick - Why would a town neighbor either agree to or propose that in a normal game? Masons are confirmed town, whereas neighbors can be any alignment. So while a scum neighbor would do that, by you shading either of them, you're basically calling both of them scum. I know you're pressing Gamma, but do you think Carcalilly is scum too?

[Billy Pilgrim]

The fact is I’ve straight up seen Gamma, in a neighborhood, claim masons. With me.

Yeah uh Billy
You kinda don't know what you're talking about

That's generally a safe assumption.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Just re-read tchill. Aside from pushing the inactive slot of Skellen and YouAreGreat, there's really nothing there. Identifies who he thinks are strong town players but just to say he won't want to Lynch them early. There's not alot in this iso
He also seems to be getting away with being pretty inactive. I don't have much this game, but this seems to be a good place for a wagon.

VOTE: Tchill

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'd probably be okay with a Tchill wagon too, but there just isn't enough time for that to happen.

We have almost 48 hours and with roster due for a replacement we may get more time.

If we build it (the wagon) others may come. I'd rather be here than on Elly at the moment. When he said he crumbed his role, I re-read his iso and expected him to claim watcher.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Fuck it I'm jumping back on tchill if we get a extension.

VOTE: Tchill

You too, Garmr. I really don't care about individual reads at this point. We can all get back to this on D2. The thing is Aaron scum claimed because there is absolutely NO TOWN MOTIVE behind voting a claimed PR on D1 (not even a direct CC in a game this size). "not really a crumb" isn't even feasible either. What's a crumb to Mr Aaron? From my PoV it's a valid crumb and it proves Elements had "Watcher" in his mind all day at the very least. If he's faking he will be caught in his own lie in D2/D3 at max. He has already locked himself to produce results. If he is for real then scum will take care of him anyway, so either way we do NOT lynch a claimed PR on D1.

On the other hand, we still don't push more people to claim (or even fake claim). What IF you push C and they claim another TPR? Then another?? We might as well mass claim right now and get it over with.

So, in sum.. a scum claim is a scum claim, and EVEN if by some Godly miracle Aaron's play came from Town then it's worthy of a PL, and the best time for a PL to happen is DAY BLOODY ONE.

Thank you.

I liked this post. But is the vote to tchill because he was the second to do it? And he didn't reference the crumbs or the claim the way that Aaron did so are we sure he had seen it? I guess I'm a little confused why you switched so quickly.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Why did like 3 people vote the claimed pr post claim? I mean I re-read his iso before the claim, and his watcher crumbs jumped out at me. Like he said, they weren't subtle. If he claimed any other role it was gonna look forced to the point that I expected a watcher claim before he did it.

So why did Aaron, tchill, and Profii all hop on afterwards? Tchill is trying to play it off like he didn't know, but he had already told us a few calendar days ago that he was gonna quit his D1 be and play. But then he went almost 3 days w/o a post and didn't even do the brief check before he voted a claimed pr, and I'm pretty sure it was either on that page or the page before.

I'd like to hear from the other two why they thought that was a good vote post claim.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Aaron's post was objectively scummier, yes. But tchill came in and hopped on 3 different wagons in 15 minutes and one was on a claimed pr. That doesn't give me good vibes. And he sheeped judge fast on getting to that wagon after he came in looking for the leading wagon. I think tchill is a better wagon at the moment. I'm townreading Judge, but I don't agree with what looks like testing the waters.

I'm also probably a little forgiving of some bizarre play with Aaron because I mislynched him in 3way LYLO this month.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Bet you wished you joined the Tchill wagon now huh. Shame there isn't time for another wagon isn't it.

-Hop

Why are we assuming this? LUV basically said we were gonna get an extension. And regardless we're at 36 hours.

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: tchill
Should have been the guy yesterday. Let's see if it works today.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Gamma mailed me last night and my answer is Yes.

I was going to ask you to say the whole message, since Gamma was dead, but hopefully he put enough in the PT that this will make sense to Lilly.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Wait, if we know Garmr lied about his target, what was going on there? And if he lied about his target why aren't people voting him? I feel like 90 percent of this game is like 3 miles over my head.

VOTE: Garmr

Pedit: shit Garmr lying about a PR this feels familiar.

VOTE: tchill

[Billy Pilgrim]

So maybe this game isn't role madness and all of our prs have just outted themselves. Fun.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@mod have a phone issue. V/LA until Monday.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Rick Dalton

Do you not think that a neapolitan basically has negative town utility in a role madness game? Specifically in a game that no one knows is role madness?

the term you're looking for is

USELESS

. Negative Utility HARMS the Town, and Nea -albeit useless- does NOT hurt the town. It doesn't give us false results. It doesn't prevent other TPRs from doing their job. It doesn't result in extra kills. So, no.. Nea is NOT a Negative Utility.

Yeah but from my perspective lets just say there are zero vanillas in the game and no one knows that as a fact. In fact, for the sake of this thought process, assume it hasn't even been talked about at all and assume the neapolitan assumes a "standard" ratio of VT to PR exists. If that neapolitan is targeting his scumreads then he is more likely to think that they are scum than PR when they come back as "not vanilla", right?

So if there are no vanillas in the game and the neapolitan is using his power in this way then isn't he more likely to advocate for potential mislynches, especially if he doesn't publicly disclose WHY he thinks his target is scummy?

Like unless I am missing something there is literally NO benefit to a neapolitan in a game with no vanillas, in which case the above logic makes me believe it would be negative town utility.

This logic makes sense to me, but I could also be dumb here.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ok, I'll be the IC or I'll get a guilty on a claimed vanilla cop. Check me I'm a VT.

No one else claim VT. Jailer can be on me to keep me alive. I'm not going anywhere. Although if there's a possibility that scum have a watcher maybe don't be on me.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Pretty sure Eevee accidentally said something they didn’t mean to, not necessarily a slip, but they didn’t want to take a specific type of discussion into the game, so now they’re questioning stuff like “there was only 1 kill, right?”

Like a playing dumb defense.

I see what this is in reference to and that makes sense.

VOTE: Eevee

[Billy Pilgrim]

Eevee wagon is worse than Tchill wagon

Is it Rick? And if not, then what's concerning you about it?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Whatever, I claimed VT already when I thought there was a nea. Then after I claimed VT, the guy who was talking a hell of a lot like nea was a negative utility role in a game with a lot of power immediately made it clear that they weren't a nea. So idk how the hell I'm a target out of that, but whatever. Idk wtf is going on with this game so if hop wants me to eat rope then at least it will end my confusion.

@Eevee how the fuck was that claim opportunistic? That discussion had gone on two pages. Also, reality check here, there had to be at least 1 vt. It's literally in the rules of the normal queue that there must be at least 1 vt. So idk what is going on here. I'm glad there enough players in the game that my claim doesn't narrow down prs too much for scum, but the pros have been doing a decent job of that themselves by claiming w/o needing to.

[Billy Pilgrim]

After Eevee's explanation on my claim, you still think chill is the best option? I'd compromise there, but Eevee's explanation on me and the bit about being pretty sure there was a jk or doctor, I prefer a lynch of that slot.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I don't want you to eat rope today since it's worth testing that theory, and Aaron/Tchill were bigger independent scumreads than you today. I've voted/ want to lynch Tchill/Aaron today.

How would we test that theory? Cliff backed away from what looked like a claim. So now I'm a claimed VT with no one investigating as far as I can tell.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I don't want you to eat rope today since it's worth testing that theory, and Aaron/Tchill were bigger independent scumreads than you today. I've voted/ want to lynch Tchill/Aaron today.

How would we test that theory? Cliff backed away from what looked like a claim. So now I'm a claimed VT with no one investigating as far as I can tell.

show me where I claimed nea

You didnt. You just had a discussion about how your role was negative utility. Then you have an example about how nea would be negative utility in a game with no vts. Then Dredd and Rick built off that discussion to suggest the claim. So while you didnt claim, it wasn't like the inference was unreasonable. And if you notice, I didnt say you claimed. I said what looks like a claim.

[Billy Pilgrim]

When did i push a lynch on billy? Show me

+1 on this Aaron.

Eevee did say that if I was VT she didnt think that I should be the lynch but that it's a tough call. She didnt push me. This happened right after she said my VT claim was opportunistic.

I think Eevee's playing weird, but I dont know if its scum. I legit dont have a grasp of this game at all, but I think this may be a spot to target.

VOTE: Aaron

[Billy Pilgrim]

billy you're being kind of weird with your voting rn

Yeah, that's probably fair. I think I'm agreeing with you on Eevee at the moment. I'm game to lynch either Aaron or chill at the moment. I dont know that outside of you I have any good townreads. But I should probably be on one of the two wagons, and Eevee's play recently has seemed more weird then scummy, so I'm back to tchill.

VOTE: tchill

[Billy Pilgrim]

This game is calling me but I'm also kind of busy. Does someone want to offer being my new mason partner and help me solve this game?

I would totally take you up on that, but as you've seen I'm erratic and not that good, so dont know if it would help the solving part of that.

[Billy Pilgrim]

UNVOTE:

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: Garmr

That was a fast hop on. Why?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ooh, let's see something, let's have tchill track Garmr. That may confirm them.

We could have the scummier one claim their result first.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Alonzo I've seen a lot of sheepy naked votes from you, and none of them particularly inspire confidence.

Intent to hammer. Claim please.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Never mind. Dont know why I thought 8 was a lynch.

VOTE: Alonzo

Dont claim yet. L-2

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Billy: how are you reading Aaron now?

@Hop - I was scum reading Aaron, but i'm town reading you and I think your meta read of him made sense. So he's out of my lynch pool for the moment.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Billy's town. His scumgame was reserved/cautious/as far as I can tell he subbed out due to pressure from it. He has a lot of natural feeling posts this game.

Agree with this. I've played with Billy in the Newbie Queue and this feels very much like his town game. I just hope he doesn't mislynch me again like he did in 1949

Well Korina and Datisi aren't here so it's unlikely that you'll get hard pocketed by Korina which made me lock!scum you D4.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I feel refreshed and full after last night.

Killing the traitor when gobble wasn't particularly townread is interesting. So I'm gonna iso him to see if I can make sense of that.

But also, that's two nights in a row with only one kill. So either theres been a protective that's quite lucky with targets or theres only one killing faction and no vigs.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Just skimmed Gobble's iso. It makes me more confident that tchill is town and less confident that Garmr is.

Also that analysis about killing a non-PR claim to keep the pool the same size makes me even more skeptical of Garmr.

VOTE: Garmr

[Billy Pilgrim]

On Rick
1st: seems meaningless.
2nd: feels too on the nose. Definitely a traitor crumb, not convinced it's a message to Rick specifically.

Hopkirk
1st one: Relevant context is that I gave those comments about everyone.
2nd one: That sounds like Gobble is asking why I scumread Tchill which I hadn't actually said at that point.
3rd: Not sure what you're pointing to there.

Gobble doesn't vote Eevee until the Eevee wagon breaks down a bit.

Given Gobble said to Profii that he wanted to check Eevee or me, I can see him having the plan to check and defend Eevee afterwards.
@Profii: how exactly did Gobble present his picks to check and did he argue much for an Eevee check? He'd have had to either tell you that Eevee had a gun (scum) or not afterwards based on his fakeclaim.
He needs to make it look like he's against Eevee day end to do that, but doesn't consider joining the Eevee counterwagon when it starts again, moving to Alonzo instead to 'consolidate'.

-Hop

Are you saying he knew who all his partners were from the start?

Check the flip again. Theres a redacted portion where his partners were revealed to him.

@Garmr - there was an early vote on tchill D2 when there was pressure there and some additional shading. Theres a bit of protecting you, but it looks like it was happening in at a time where there wasn't much pressure on you (you didnt really have much D2, so like I said, less convinced of you, while more convinced of tchill.

Why does someone think that gobble accidentally outted one of his scumbuddies? Wouldnt the traitor be trying to steer people away from scum? If so, wasn't the kill to try and frame someone? And if so, wouldnt that mean the people that gobble was scumreading are more likely town?

[Billy Pilgrim]

my reads of people who voted me.

town
Dave

Null
Tex

Scum
Billy

How exactly am I scum here? And how did Dave move from scum to town literally overnight?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Oh, and VOTE: Garmr.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Cliff Booth, what are your reads on JJD and Billy Pilgrim?

scumlean on jjd from what I understand of what's going on, although I definitely need to do some research to determine if I really feel that way.

townreading billy for reasons u'm interested talking more about later maybe

Damnit cliff, I'm not really sold on you town, so I dont know if this is you budding or holding something back.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm am idiot. I was going back through the rooster wagon to see who I could townread then after catching up today realized it was a traitor so scum didnt know rooster was scum.
I hate how bad I am at this game.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Cliff right now, what were you referring to with respect to me.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Christ anyone know what the Vc is at?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Cliff right now, what were you referring to with respect to me.

Jjd answers first

Ok, I'm cool with that, but then I need your answer.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I outplayed you... na na na na (and I don't even know who you really are)

P-edit: @Billy: He is a SCUM PR and he faked a result on you (or maybe he didn't, because theoretically a scum Nea or a scum Vanilla Cop could exist).

@Judge - answer him. I have reasons that I want him to clarify what hes talking about.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Alright cliff you got your answer, now out with whatever you were holding back.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I softed receiving the fruit, probably pretty stupidly. Should I let the day go or just hammer here?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Why the fuck is Aaron talking theory when we caught scum?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I got fruit last night, hence feeling full in my first post D3. I'm trusting that it was Cliff. If I lynch JJD and I'm wrong then i push for a power lynch on Cliff tomorrow. Loyal fruit vendor is kinda cool.

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: JJD

I'm sad that I have to do this to a fellow Red, particularly when. We're up against scum united this weekend. Oh well, you won't walk alone. You at least have your scum pt.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Either way, Billy is confirmed town if Cliff is nea.

Are you reading? He claims to be a Loyal FV. Now watch this:

I’m an Informed Miller, there are no loyal modifiers in this game, and there are 4 scum

RD is probably scum too. He knows Cliff is DISLOYAL.

So that's Cliff (100%) + Tchill/Garmr (95%) + RD (80%)

Shit, forgot this, Rick was that real? I seem to remember it being in with all the other bs, and you also claimed doc, so I think you may need to claim here.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Way I see it is as follows:

Cliff said he gave JJD fruit on N1
JJD claims he sent Cliff fruit on N1
Cliff said he sent me fruit on N2
JJD didnt claim a N2 check

JJD claimed disloyal complex fruit vendor
Cliff claimed loyal fruit vendor

Now, going back through JJD's posts, his first post of the day 2051 asks about mail. Now that's probably because of Gamma's flip.

Then in response to Cliff's first post of the day 2099 he asks him if that was all he had to say. He doesn't follow up on this after Cliff's next posts.

Then after JJD claims about 4 roles, then says I'm one of them or am I, Cliff then asks him if something weird happened last night at 2132. JJD just talked about the nk the mail to Garmr and the targeting of Carca.

Then it seems like both of then stop interacting with each other. Then Cliff has his discussion about how useless his role is.

Then 2250 Cliff reasks JJD whether anything weird happened last night.

2255 JJD then claims he doused him, then this weird joke where he simultaneously says if something happened he wasnt responsible for it. But that if it's something that can be expected in a normal then he did it.

Cliff responds to the dousing saying something smelled funny, then JJD claimed he had cabbage and beans, which could potentially be a visitor soft.

2306 jjd claims about 6 roles the last is fruit vendor.

Then 2330 claims hes a disloyal vig that shot Cliff, but definitely made it sound like it was fake, but then 3 posts later claims he shot Garmr, so even thought I was about to read into 2330, I cant because of 2333. He then claims he shot 3 more people.

2478 he then asks the VT to claim, then says hes not but that his role is "limited/gated its virtually useless."

A disloyal fruit vendor (before he outted his role) definitely isn't useless considering he could have pressured someone to find out if they got it, and they could have been confirmed either way. Now it's useless, because assuming it's real everyone knows to say they didnt get anything from him.

I would like Cliff to clarify how he thought his role was negative utility. Because you just ran away from the simple modifier, you didnt want someone to claim vt, and you targeted JJD n1, when he claimed a out 30 pts, and in one instance seemed to claim a limited pr seriously.

I also need Cliff to explain 3128.

3657 JJD returns to the D2 situation with Cliff.

I would like Cliff to answer those questions but I see 3 possibilities.

Cliff telling the truth as loyal fruit vendor and JJD scum
Cliff fruit vendor not loyal, bussing JJD. This is possible because he waited to out that he sent the fruit, but probably unlikely. If he did this, he lied D2 about sending fruit to JJD. Wouldnt worry about that until later though.

I think the lynch has to be between these two today, or at least for me it does. I crumbled receiving the fruit pretty obviously, but JJD claimed not to see it. I dont buy that, this guy sees crumbs that are minuscule, so I think that was him trying to shade Cliff.

Also, from their interactions it makes more sense that Cliff wasnt satisfied with JJD's answer and wanted to have a conf inno when he claimed, so that seems like a better progression than JJD's progression. I dont get how he can claim a disloyal simple fruit vendor is useless.

Even his trying to get off the lynch is like 3 extra fake claims. First he faked mailman, then claimed visitor then claimed disloyal simple fruit vendor. Can we lynch this please? With fire.

I'll walk with you on Sunday, but today you die with fire.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm confused what you meant by that Hop. Who are you saying is obvscum here?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I was wondering if JJD was going to claim that he gave Billy the fruit on N2 and did so because Billy claimed VT, ergo, establishing the existance of a fruit and giving some credence to the simple claim.
However, as Billy rightly points out, JJD totally missed the crumb and it was a homing beacon of a crumb, so that is ruled out.

On the Cliff side of things, he was expecting JJD to say he received a fruit and he did not, I think Cliff gave JJD a lot of leeway for essentially having a guilty, but given that Cliff told us his role was a negative utility, which it isn't really either means he didnt understand the power his role posseses or he was scared of claiming a hard guilty for fear of being killed.

I'm inclined to side with Cliff here but I want to check the VC before I re-vote.

I think it would be the latter part for Cliffs thinking.

Fruit vendor is not a strong role as such but can demonstrate the truth in your role, but the only hold back is the fact that there is a mafia version of it, so it wouldn't necessarily mean he's 100% town confirmed in my eyes.

do you think JJD might be getting bussed by cliff?

I left that as a possibility, but it's something we can sort out later.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I was wondering if JJD was going to claim that he gave Billy the fruit on N2 and did so because Billy claimed VT, ergo, establishing the existance of a fruit and giving some credence to the simple claim.
However, as Billy rightly points out, JJD totally missed the crumb and it was a homing beacon of a crumb, so that is ruled out.

On the Cliff side of things, he was expecting JJD to say he received a fruit and he did not, I think Cliff gave JJD a lot of leeway for essentially having a guilty, but given that Cliff told us his role was a negative utility, which it isn't really either means he didnt understand the power his role posseses or he was scared of claiming a hard guilty for fear of being killed.

I'm inclined to side with Cliff here but I want to check the VC before I re-vote.

I think it would be the latter part for Cliffs thinking.

Fruit vendor is not a strong role as such but can demonstrate the truth in your role, but the only hold back is the fact that there is a mafia version of it, so it wouldn't necessarily mean he's 100% town confirmed in my eyes.

do you think JJD might be getting bussed by cliff?

We can't rule it out, but in this situation, it's hard to see considering scum have almost full numbers baring the traitor so they are kind of in a good position, but on the other side of the argument, they could have set this plan up during the night phase to try cement Cliff into a stronger town read for later on in the game when the numbers have dwindled, and left in the unknowns.

How probable do you think this is given that he would have set this up over 2 days when I dont think anyone was scumreading JJD D1.

Also, can we just kill JJD with fire already and worry about post-flip after the flip. Honestly this site drives me crazy with pre-flip analysis of what that means post-flip.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I don't like how hop has been on my case hard and seemingly tried to pussyfoot around it other than implying I'm town that just hindered my own power role

Considering he was scumreading you and based on the context, I think he was calling you the obvscum. I may be wrong here.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@billy

Can I ask why you voted me over JJD. Because I think I was pretty much on point catching Goob trying to tell JJD about his pt.

It shouldn't surprise you honestly, and I'm a bit confused by your reaction. I scumread you the last game you were town when I was town. Theres something about your confidence level that throws me off. Now, maybe you did pick that up. It's also possible that that's not what you think it is.

Hey @Profii was that comment from Gobble around the time that you told JJD you had a pt?

Pedit: Feel better Hectic. Sorry to hear about the chokeslam though a steel chair. Hopefully you can recover and give your problem a stunner.

[Billy Pilgrim]

JJd can you confirm that you are visitor and that you visited cliff n1


Cliff can you confirm whether you were visited or not

The visitor claim was like 3 fake claims ago. Now hes claiming disloyal fruit vendor.

Look if someone that isn't Cliff sent me fruit you should probably claim now, because it's the interaction between Cliff's claiming he sent me the fruit and JJD claiming not having received it that's making me think JJD is scum here.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I got around to reading Cliff v JJD right before going to bed last night.
Billy did the research I would have wanted to do, thanks!

I think JJD is scum here. Cliff bussing isn't completely out of the question, but I think it's unlikely. A scum flip definitely doesn't conf Cliff -- that term gets way too overused IMO.

I did that shit on my phone. I had to keeping between the windows. I need a damn computer to play this.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I think this is easy now. Jjd is claiming a tpr, but its weak. Cliffs claimed tpr is more valuable. We lynch JJD today, if he flips town then we kill Cliff tomorrow instalynch style. If JJD flips scum we leave Cliff alone for at least a day and see if anything else comes from it.

I'm not seeing what's taking so long here. Look I already claimed VT. And I'm not nearly as good at this game as I'd like to be. But JJD already killed the utility of their role if its town so if town, hes VT. So if we get JJD wrong we power lynch Cliff tomorrow.

Honestly am I so dense I'm missing something here?

Pedit: I think Bob and I are on the same page here. Look JJD is flailing here. There I said it so hes now 15% more likely to be scum. JJD if you're town you should accuse me of flailing so you're now 30% more likely to flip scum.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Profii - what the fuck are you waiting on here? I cant see any scum motivation in what you're doing, but its sure as hell weird.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I got around to reading Cliff v JJD right before going to bed last night.
Billy did the research I would have wanted to do, thanks!

I think JJD is scum here. Cliff bussing isn't completely out of the question, but I think it's unlikely. A scum flip definitely doesn't conf Cliff -- that term gets way too overused IMO.

If you think JJD is scum here why aren't you hammering?

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Profii - what the fuck are you waiting on here? I cant see any scum motivation in what you're doing, but its sure as hell weird.

I'm not hammering until we know why cliff didnt pursue a guilty yesterday?

Eh that makes sense. I can understand why he wouldn't but I'm providing my own explanation.

[Billy Pilgrim]

A50 did this naked AtE in a game where he an I were scum partners then subbed out before he got hammered. It got his slot townread after the sub out. Now in that game he didnt self-hammer, but I dont remember if he had the chance. And it started out that two people from that game (tchill and flippy) were here, but now they both subbed out. So I really dont know what this flip is gonna be but the AtE felt like scum A50 using a strategy that worked last game.

If hes town, then this is my second game in a row with a town self-hammer. Garmr and Profii were both in that one.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Cliff still owes answers to those questions but if this flips green (get it, since I made a big deal about this as a slip earlier) then we power-lynch him tomorrow.

[Billy Pilgrim]

And obviously, if this is a scum flip it doesn't clear Cliff. And yes, I'm aware that if Cliff is under suspicion so am i.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Billy's never scum by any means. Not ever.

The quote you mangled was an if/then.

Billy claimed to have received fruit -- if there isn't another FV then what does that mean? Normals can't have redirection, in case anyone has forgotten that.

I dont understand this from JJD from any alignment. Except maybe scum. If hes town, this makes no sense. If hes scum then this would be an attempt to shade Cliff through me. Or this is all wifom.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Whatever, if scum traded JJD for Cliff then that's a strange choice, but whatever it's done. If JJD flips town we auto-lynch Cliff.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@hectic - that's an alt slip from JJD.

I dont like that both Cliff and JJD are both calling me conf town.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Profii - what the fuck are you waiting on here? I cant see any scum motivation in what you're doing, but its sure as hell weird.

I'm not hammering until we know why cliff didnt pursue a guilty yesterday?

I will respect this, and will delay my self-hammer for .. what? 6 more hours??


Naaaah. As much as I hate to disappoint profii here, a promise is a promise, and when even guys like dave side by scum the town deserves to be punished for it's stupidity.

VOTE: JJD

P.S. Lynch texcat too. She can't get to LyLo. And if I had multiple Vig shots I would have shot every single one who voted me.

That's two self-hammers in 3 days. The wiki says self-hammering is never a good idea as town, but hey, we can't always play optimally in the face of emotions, so all is forgiven.
So Cliff dies tomorrow because he can't coexist with town!JJD's role?

Not the way the claim went down. Cliff is trying to walk this back now, and I swear to God he eats rope if this is a green flip.

[Billy Pilgrim]

what i dont get is why jJD says billy is never scum.

If he is tellign teh truth about being a disloyal simple fruitvendor

Then wouldnt cliff beign fruit vendor prevent the action goign through due to not being a goon or vt

If billy is saying he got fruit and noone else is claiming to have done so.

Then for cliff to be scum billy has to be scum if JJD is a town disloyal simple fruit vendor

If Cliff is a loyal scum fruit vendor then I'm definitely scum. If hes a scum fruit vendor w/o any loyal/disloyal modifiers then I could have (and this would be the case if JJD flips green) fallen for his gambit to get JJD lynched.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@hectic - that's an alt slip from JJD.

I dont like that both Cliff and JJD are both calling me conf town.

I mean I sent you fruit and my role pm explicitly states that you only receive it as town so

You make more sense than JJD based on your claim. JJD is triggering my paranoia.

[Billy Pilgrim]

y'all screwed up

cliff, why are you confirming town if it goes against your wincon?

Honestly if hes a scum regular fruit vendor then I'm not confirmed. He gets 2 townies for one scum (himself). I'm also not sure we got this wrong. JJD missed my crumb, and it was a pretty big one for someone with his aptitude for crumbspotting to miss.

We may have messed this up. Folks if I die tonight its scum trying to steer you away from Cliff. Powerlynch that shit tomorrow.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Here's what important and I don't give a shit who believes me or not but let it be known.
I am TOWN
I am a LOYAL FRUIT VENDOR
Billy is TOWN barring very unlikely scenarios that could influence this
RD LIED about there being no loyal modifiers

Is the unlikely scenario someone else (presumably scum based on this next part of the sentence) giving me fruit and not saying anything. Because absent that, what other scenario explains me getting fruit? Or a scum watcher? I cant think of anything else.

[Billy Pilgrim]

If you are a loyal fruit vendor he is flipping scum

Past that it's all just paranoia

he claimed at least 10 roles this game. at least 4 different variations near the end. he could be ascetic.
he could have been jailed/rolestopped night 1
i could have been jailed/roleblocked night 1
there are other weird things that could affect it
[redacted]

I thought about this and if that happened by scum, shit, they got lucky. If that happened by town and they kept their mouth shut for almost 24 hours then they are hurting town by not even softing that.

Oh and I realize I got the role wrong last time, that should have been a voyeur on me not a watcher.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Yeah, the RD thing is interesting.

If JJD flips red Rick is primary target tomorrow.

If JJD flips green then Cliff is primary suspect tomorrow.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Cliff you said you may have lied about something, what was it that you may have lied about?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Here's what important and I don't give a shit who believes me or not but let it be known.
I am TOWN
I am a LOYAL FRUIT VENDOR
Billy is TOWN barring very unlikely scenarios that could influence this
RD LIED about there being no loyal modifiers

I didn’t say there was no loyal modifiers here.

I said I had ran a gambit where I claimed there were no Loyal Modifiers in a different game.

Rick, read 790 and tell me where you reference another game.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I am. I need you to confirm what message you received so I know you're not just saying you did.

why is it a "'messenger' of sorts" and not a role title? did you specifically target me for the message or was the target chosen at random.
it feels like you're intentionally hiding something

Let me try again: Did you receive something or did you not receive anything on N1?

Failing to answer probably means scum have a Tracker/Watcher who saw me visit you but didn't know what kind of action I performed. I can't think of any other scenario where you would know I visited you but didn't receive the gift.

I did receive a message

What .. was .. it?

A lovely basket of fruit

Are you sure? Are you absolutely certain that you received FRUIT (and not -say- chocolate)?

It was fruit

JJD = Town + Disloyal + Simple

Billy is claiming Town Loyal FV, that also received a fruit on N1

JJD is claiming to have attempted to have sent the fruit, so it seems improbable that another FV is here AND they targetted CB successfully.

This means Cliff is either disloyal to JJD (Scum) or Simple to JJD (not a FV and therefore a liar)

Given the somewhat awkward exchange, I dont think Cliff really received a fruit and guessed but I think Scum were happy to trade a cop for whatever cliff is.

Consider me voting for cliff but I am going to let everyone have a say before we rush into yet another lynch

I'm not claiming fruit vendor. I hard claimed VT on D2 when JJD was talking about having the nea check someone. I claimed receiving fruit on N2.

I think we have to lynch Cliff here because of the claim of fruit even though I think he may flip green because of the way he started talking at EoD1. I think the risk that hes caught out here means we need to lynch. I think theres three possibilities: 1) Cliff is a loyal fruit vendor but lied about sending fruit to JJD and lied about receiving it; 2) Cliff is a scum fruit vendor that lied about receiving fruit from JJD but not about sending it; this may explain why he lied about receiving it since hes not simple (and if he had JJD's exact role it would explain why JJD didnt receive it but I did; 3) hes a loyal fruit vendor who got RB'd on N1 - if this is the case I feel like it has to be a scum RB since no one claimed it when we were talking about it.

The only thing that explains his lie is 2 and there hes scum so VOTE: Cliff

[Billy Pilgrim]

Sorry JJD. I think I got used as a pawn in your mislynch.

[Billy Pilgrim]

My current list for scum is cliff, garmr, kop and i think last oen is titus

Billy is very likely if Cliff is scum (likely).

Let's say Cliff is scum. Why does Billy!scum sacrifice himself and Cliff just to get JJD mislynched?

I'm not saying that I'm cleared, and me being involved in JJD's mislynch definitely doesn't look good for me, but why do two scum play such an obvious gambit to get one town lynched?

And if the theory is both me and Cliff scum together, and the theory was that it was Cliff who was the nea, then me volunteering to be the check doesn't even draw out the nea. So what exactly is my scum motivation in how any of my plays went down?

I got sucked into the JJD mislynch, Cliff either got fruit (which makes him a goon) and lied about sending me fruit (and since no one ccd that it means there must be a scum FV), or he lied about getting fruit which is either a nonsense play as town or he did as a scum or and he sent me the fruit to hook me into the mislynch. Why if I'm scum here do I so strongly commit myself to Cliff's gambit when the town JJD flip means Cliff is almost certainly the next lynch?

[Billy Pilgrim]

yay conf town squad gains a member

VOTE: cliff booth
Maybe I shouldn't have doubted myself...

Who became conf town?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I also didnt get fruit last night.

[Billy Pilgrim]

UNVOTE: want to wait to see what went on with the fruit. Also, people should probably claim N1 fruit as well.

So to clarify for myself, I received fruit on N2 but no other times.

[Billy Pilgrim]

JJD said he gave fruit to Billy right? Or was that you who gave him fruit?

No. JJD didnt claim that he gave me fruit, when I crumbed my fruit, Cliff said he gave it to me. JJD claimed he sent fruit to Cliff N1 then Bob N2.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Okay look this is kind of an insane request but given the state town is in right now (very bad imo unless the traitor implies a small number of scum compared to what we might expect)

Can you guys just like assume I am town while you discuss things and lynch me? I NEED to be lynched and you guys REALLY SHOULD just assume we now have 4 conftown because that's the only real benefit I can provide right now. I know it's asking a lot but fuck I dont want to see everyone talking about if I'm scum and what that means for the game when it's not the case. Then this day is just town making cases/associations etc based around WRONG INFO.

I am town and I need to die. Just please trust me enough to assume I'm not lying, dave, carc, billy, and PROBABLY bob are TOWN.

Personally I think there's at least 2/3 scum in dalton, eevee, texcat, garmr, and hopkirk

Of course dave and carc are town they are confirmed town. Dave by mod and and carc by mason kill. But you are 100% wrong on billy.

You need to case me, because your shade on me throughout this game has been incessant for at least the past 2 days. I think it's been since I voted you.

[Billy Pilgrim]

since you claim fruit vendor and since you cant be based on jjd role.

Thus anyone tracked to me would be outed as scum. If you vended to e.g.araon it woudl be tracked to aaron.

If soemoen other than tchill died he had teh chance to track teh night kill

Ok, I'm gonna assume you're town based on Cliff's result and I'm going to discuss based on a town Cliff flip with a loyal vendor. If he flips scum I'll reassess, but I think how this plays out, its gonna flip green, but he needs to die regardless.

Cliff probably lied about getting the fruit. If he lied about getting the fruit then he could be what he says he is and he could have been the one that sent you and I both fruit.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Oh wait billy got the fruit not bob n2.

Bob claimed fruit N3. Bob was JJD's target N2.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Haven't recieved any fruit this game.

VOTE: Cliff

What do you think of your assessment on JJD now, Aaron?
Bob needs to slow down on the obvtowning.

If Cliff flips what he says he is then Bob is conf!town tomorrow.

[Billy Pilgrim]

But to clarify in this case, if JJD was jailkept, and the tracker targeted Cliff, the tracker would get the result that Cliff targeted JJD.

But if the roleblocker targeted Cliff and the tracker targeted Cliff then the tracker would get a no result.

Is that right?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Btw, Garmr has posted 3 times since I asked for his scum case on me and Bob scum read him, and hasn't provided his scum case on me yet, despite consistently shading me. I'm coming for Garmr tomorrow.

[Billy Pilgrim]

sad that my scumread got confirmed town. what roles can actually do that in a normal? publishing cop?

Why's that sad? Is it because you're looking for a scumread? It moved us closer to solve and excluded someone from the lynch pool. It's only sad if you're not worried about solving.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Kop
Billy Pilgrim (I got fruit on N2 only)
Rick Dalton
Alonzo
Hectic
EeveeLution Army
Carcalilly
Garmr
bob

[Billy Pilgrim]

Wait do we have a guilty out of this list? Why were we asking about fruit Cliff?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ok Hop, I was going through text's iso and it reminded me about something from D2. Can you explain your progression on me?
You start with a finger of suspicion on me at 433
Then you interact with me over how I perceived the slip from Lilly regarding role pms.
Then you vote me at 833, then at 1043 you are trying to build a wagon on me.
At 1071, you switch your vote to Cliff on what seems like some legitimately scummy behavior, doesn't seem like you adjusted your reads anywhere else though. 1148 you seem to be trying to get a wagon on Cliff to take off. You later clarified that at 1368 you were scumreading me and Elly, but at that time you were voting Cliff.
1401, Cliff goes back into your town pile, but now Elly becomes your vote. You are still scumreading me at this time.
Then you vote tchill at 1698, then to Aaron within 100 posts. Then at 107 hes back on Elly.

Then D2 you kick off voting Aaron when he seems to be getting suspect. Then moves immediately to tchill when there is interest and votes immediately after me when he hadn't yet said he stopped scumreading me at the time.

My VT claim is here at 2508.


Then at 2606 invites Lilly to vote either tchill, me, or Aaron. Then hop cases the 3 of us.
Then at 2613 you found value in testing the VT claim but seem to still have me as your 3rd scumread at the time behind Aaron and tchill.

2905 commits to town Garmr.

Then all of a sudden at 2914 I'm "obvtowning." I think later he clarifies that this was wrt my claim, but he was still scumreading me after the claim. And I dont think I get moved out of this category.

@Hop why did I become town well after my claim when immediately after inwas still scum?

Sorry folks there was alot of notes in there, but I needed it as notes to myself when I was putting this together.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Davesaz and Carcalilly are mod-confirmed to be town.
Profii is town because he was Gobble's neighbor.
Billy is town because he claimed VT early on and I believed him.

If Cliff flips town, we then can confirm both Billy and Bob.

Rick has claimed doctor, but he's an actor so I don't put much stock in it.

Carca is not mod confirmed town, she was the other mason. Dave is mod confirmed town.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Man, why did you lie about sending fruit to JJD? That was why I pushed that wagon so hard.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Rick did you get fruit at all?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Davesaz and Carcalilly are mod-confirmed to be town.
Profii is town because he was Gobble's neighbor.
Billy is town because he claimed VT early on and I believed him.

If Cliff flips town, we then can confirm both Billy and Bob.

Rick has claimed doctor, but he's an actor so I don't put much stock in it.

I don't get the Profii or Billy townreads there. Wiki states that neghbours can still be scum, they're not masons, which is an entirely different role.
Why is Billy claiming VT early town-indicative?

Both of these required some contextual analysis. Profii claimed neighbors with rooster/gobble who flipped traitor. It wouldnt make sense for Profii to be scum here, because it would have defeated the purpose of the traitor role. Something left out of this was that Profii claimed backup tracker and now we had tchill's flip. So while his backup role and his neighbor association dont require him to be town, they both heavily suggest it.

As for me, I claimed VT as a way to verify someone that seemed to be softing neapolitan. It was in the context of Cliff saying he thought his role may have negative utility and not sure if there was a VT. JJD was the one that proposed the idea of a single.VT claiming. I volunteered. You can make of that what you will, but I think the context is relevant both with Profii and with my claim.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Davesaz and Carcalilly are mod-confirmed to be town.
Profii is town because he was Gobble's neighbor.
Billy is town because he claimed VT early on and I believed him.

If Cliff flips town, we then can confirm both Billy and Bob.

Rick has claimed doctor, but he's an actor so I don't put much stock in it.

I don't get the Profii or Billy townreads there. Wiki states that neghbours can still be scum, they're not masons, which is an entirely different role.
Why is Billy claiming VT early town-indicative?

Both of these required some contextual analysis. Profii claimed neighbors with rooster/gobble who flipped traitor. It wouldnt make sense for Profii to be scum here, because it would have defeated the purpose of the traitor role. Something left out of this was that Profii claimed backup tracker and now we had tchill's flip. So while his backup role and his neighbor association dont require him to be town, they both heavily suggest it.

As for me, I claimed VT as a way to verify someone that seemed to be softing neapolitan. It was in the context of Cliff saying he thought his role may have negative utility and not sure if there was a VT. JJD was the one that proposed the idea of a single.VT claiming. I volunteered. You can make of that what you will, but I think the context is relevant both with Profii and with my claim.

Thanks for explaining.
Makes Profii likely town. I'd say your claim is NAI though, could just be a goon claiming VT.

Sure if I'm lying I could definitely be lying. But a nea is a stronger vanilla cop. It returns results of VT/not VT. So if I was a goon volunteering to be checked, the lie would be caught out. I'm sure you knew that already though, since it's in the wiki.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I feel like scum is fine with Cliff being the lynch. I thi k that's either because he was determined to be able to be sacrificed, which is consistent with what happened yesterday, or it's because he is going to flip town. If he flips scum, then texcat is probably leading scum candidate tomorrow for trying to redirect the lynch. If he flips town I dont know where that leads us. I'd like a a swer from hopkirk on his progression vis-a-vis me and I think we're still waiting on answers from Rick and Lilly about fruit.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I feel like scum is fine with Cliff being the lynch. I thi k that's either because he was determined to be able to be sacrificed, which is consistent with what happened yesterday, or it's because he is going to flip town. If he flips scum, then texcat is probably leading scum candidate tomorrow for trying to redirect the lynch. If he flips town I dont know where that leads us. I'd like a a swer from hopkirk on his progression vis-a-vis me and I think we're still waiting on answers from Rick and Lilly about fruit.

Huh? I did park my vote on Garmr while waiting to vote for Cliff until everyone had a chance to post. I would hardly characterize that as redirecting the lynch.

VOTE: Cliff L-2 I think

Cliff

, if you are town, can you confirm that you sent fruit to Kop on N1? He said he did not receive any fruit.

Eeeew. Really bad post. Tries to act like they didnt move votes, is trying to get Cliff to out the purpose of this before we have all the answers in (we're still waiting on Rick and Lilly)

@Hop, I feel better now after your explanation. As for why i kept obv in there, it's because i link to posts so i try and use language that is as close to what the person originally used as possible. I struggled with it with your confirmed scum post with me tchill and Profii, but I figured that the way you used it obvtown wasnt all that different from a townlean/read. And the guy that shaded you for it is now conf!town so I figured that was a dead issue.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I already told Cliff my answer.

Where, and what's your answer?

[Billy Pilgrim]

So tomorrow, assuming the kill doesn't get blocked we'd be at 13 people. What's a standard amount of scum for a game this big? I'm pretty confident that we're not in multi ball, and theres probably not a vig. I think the odds on exactly one of them getting blocked each night is just a bit weird.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Hectic, under your formula 3(5)+1=16. 6 would fit better 3(6)+1=19.

I'm curious because I'm wondering if we can give Cliff another night to confirm another VT. But if theres 6 scum, then tomorrow is LYLO and Cliff cant make LYLO.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Although why didnt he mention simple earlier. I mean that makes the negative town utility discussion with the nea thing make more sense, but why did he lie about getting fruit?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I think I believe this claim. I feel like a jackass for lynching JJD yesterday, but for some reason (probably because I got to eat some lovely strawberries) I think this may be real, and if tomorrow isnt LYLO then we could potentially get another confirmed vt.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I think that usually, it's that Cliff is scum. I think that the way Cliff has played post-admission of lie means this isnt a situation where there are less assumptions to establish Cliff as scum.

@Dave, I need you to help me through why Bob's claim gets less weight. As I remember, Cliff just asked everyone who got fruit. Bob said he did and Cliff then confirmed he had sent it. I dont see why that gets less weight.

The way I see it is as follows (for this analysis let's assume Cliff flips as claimed)
If Cliff is the role he says he is we have 4 townies confirmed - Dave (conf by mod), Carc (flipped pr conf), me and Bob by receiving fruit.

I am basically treating Profii as conf!town because it would have defeated the traitor mechanic to put Gobble in a neighborhood with scum.

That means that scum is within (Kop, Rick, Hectic, Eevee, Titus, Hop, Garmr, Aaron, and tex)

I believe Cliff. I think that Profii does. I think that Dave does. That's three of my high townreads that buy that this is the wrong lynch. I think some of the push on Cliff may be coming from scum to avoid having another conf!townie when he flips.

We have 15 players at the moment. The speculation seems to be 5 scum, which means 9 town. If that's true we have 2 days before LYLO assuming 2 mislynches. I'd trust Cliff in LYLO at this point, because I cant see scum motivation outside of anger play but the lie. And I dont know why he chooses a 1v1 there with a weak pr. And I dont see a scum motivation in basically begging for his lynch. So I'm good with him.

I think that now may be a good time for mass claim and we could actually get either some guilty or conf!townie results from Cliff tomorrow. It also gives us enough time before LYLO to either check some of those PR claims and if we keep Cliff alive to check the VT claims as well.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Actually let me match this a second, then I probably won't post for at least 12 hours.

Assuming 5 scum, we have today and tomorrow to mislynch. I'm basically considering 5 people as conf!town. So theres 4 more townies in that pool of 9 I identified earlier. So we're probably to the point that scum is not gonna kill in that pool unless we give them a reason to, like 1 of them claims a PR. And we have at least 1 town or that can investigate the claimed prs and 1 1 town pr that can investigate the claimed VTs. If we keep Cliff alive, he can investigate at least one of the VT claims.

Assuming we mislynch, scum kill a conf!townie and Cliff gets an inno, then we're at 5 conf!townies and the lynch pool is down to 7 with all five scum there.

If we mislynch, and Cliff gets a guilty, we only have 4 conf!townies, but we have a guaranteed kill for LYLO or we could lynch that that day.

Look, if we trust Cliff (which I do) town can basically PoE this for a win. If we force a mass claim now, i think it enhances our chances.

I think we should mass claim. I already claimed, so did Profii, Cliff, and Garmr. If I have a choice, i want to popcorn to texcat.

On a side note, did Garmr claim n3 target?

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Dave, I need you to help me through why Bob's claim gets less weight. As I remember, Cliff just asked everyone who got fruit. Bob said he did and Cliff then confirmed he had sent it. I dont see why that gets less weight.

scum!Bob could know he was Cliff's target if scum have a role like watcher or tracker, or even voyeur for that matter. Or he could guess he'd be the target as someone who hadn't claimed a role, since Cliff can only target simple. It's risky, but scumteam are in a very good place and even better if they get someone "confirmed".

We didn't even know for sure there was a FV in play when you initially claimed receiving it. Scum could still know from N1 results, granted, but the probability is much less than it is when they know who to examine N3.

I figured the watcher, but yeah voyeur works too, but you think that Bob would have been a priority for scum? I mean tracking Cliff makes sense, but do scum get trackers in normals?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I hate lynching town prs and particularly ones that can confirm townies. I like working backwards from townreads. So maybe tex doesn't like what I'm saying, but dave legit townread Cliff, explicitly stated it, and Profii seemed to be at a decent townread of Cliff at the time I made that post, but hes seemed to go back and forth on it since then. You may not like what I said, but I just said things that were clear at that time. So I'd like to not lynch there, but whatever. I'm not voting there, because I think we're killing a town pr. If I'm wrong oh well, I guess I get to eat rope tomorrow.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Plain and simple i think your scum. Thus there is no solid clear on me and billy.

If you are town which i doubt then you flip does confirm me and billy

Cliff is probably a scum disloyal fruit vendor which would still clear you and Billy.

Why in God's name would he play this way to create two confirmed townies if hes trying to die?

[Billy Pilgrim]

More than 6 days left. Either 2 people are gonna vote to lynch Cliff or we need to trust Cliff. Profii seemed willing to do that at one point, and Dave had been town reading Cliff. As I had said, I'd like to see a mass claim here and if it was up to me I had popcorned to texcat.

But this is stalling and we need to progress someway.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I unvoted off of Cliff when there seemed to be some interest in a mass claim. If no one wants to massclaim then the people who feel like Cliff needs to eat rope should just vote there. I think Cliff should stay and conf!town out of the VT pool. I think that prospect scares scum, which is why some folks started pushing harder for a Cliff lynch. And I think I'm the only one that's proposed this, and I think that scum would have pushed for my idea if they wanted to sabotage it by role blocking. But something needs to happen to advance this day.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I don't feel like voting for cliff I'm up for voting tex or titus's slot.

How do you feel about massclaim?

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: kop

I'm fine with Hop going first. I'd like a massclaim before I decided where to vote, but if I'm going blind within my PoE I will start here.

[Billy Pilgrim]

And if cliff miraculously flips town and tomorrow is LYLO, we should massclaim, because we have 2 conftown already anyway and one will probably die.

If Cliff flips loyal simple fruit vendor we have 4 comf!town. I get what Dave was saying, but I'm not going down the paranoia trap this game. We have 4 conf town if Cliff flips as claimed.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Also. I want hopkirk claiming first if they haven't already. I'm starting to have some minor issues with that slot.

What are the issues?

Is this you asking for a claim? If so I'm fine claiming now as long as you agree to trust Hectic afterwards.

Lilly already said Hectic was in her clear pending reassessment based on scumflips.

[Billy Pilgrim]

For Cliff to flip town we have to have had a d1 wagon where 8 town voted for him (me/Hectic/Billy who's town if Cliff is/5 confirmed/dead town). A wagon that the scum didn't try and push then, or later in the day.

Given what you just said, why are you so confident that Hectic is town if Cliff flips town?

As for your other post, the length of days is really messing with me. As you remember I was in that game where the mod siteflaked, and a replacement of the inactive slot didnt really fix the issues there either. Although yes, maybe it does make sense for the day to go on while we're waiting, but I dont know how long it's going to take for the replacement. Now that hop claimed VT, it would be nice to see claims from tex, eevee, kop, a hard claim from Rick, titus, and Aaron. I think that's everyone. I dont think tomorrow is LYLO unless the vig (if there is one) misses, so it would be nice to have some extra nights to sort out the claims.

[Billy Pilgrim]

If anyone can find a crumb from tchill (he makes those, I was a mason with him before and he actually introduced me to breadcrumbs) that shows who he was likely to target the night he died then I will believe scum shot him.

But why wouldn't a conftown or a doctor-claiming Rick get killed by scum instead? The only logical reason I see is that Tchill crumbed a target.

I mean it could be as simple as town!doctor!rick was going to be on one of the conftown so take out a claimed PR instead. But where does that leave Garmr? I might be missing others but if it was just Tchill and Garmr, I think a tracker is more powerful than a Voyeur?

Cliff

didn't post at all day 3

because JJD 'antitown gamethrower' JJD decided he wanted to selfhammer before we got a replacement for the tracker who could have been killed. Also because it was taking a while to get a replacement (also irritating) but I guess that's just more info we should have got that we lost for no good reason.

Kind of contributing to why I've been on the Kop train the whole day and I'm very concerned about people wanting to end another day early.

Tchill probably died since he had two track results to claim.

He had claimed one of them. And now that I have to bring it back up it was also confirmed by the target. It was that someone didn't go anywhere n1.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Why do I feel like an idiot.

N1 - texcat no visit
N2 - didnt give the result
N3 - he does so he wouldnt get the result?

[Billy Pilgrim]

You claimed VT. I saw it. The VT claims will only matter for my PoE and if Cliff survives to potentially confirm them.

[Billy Pilgrim]

90% sure Eevee posted several times and avoided claiming VT when we thought there could be that VT cop when Eevee seemed to.think it was reasonable to claim. Need to check if I'm remembering right.

Isnt the same true of you?

[Billy Pilgrim]

90% sure Eevee posted several times and avoided claiming VT when we thought there could be that VT cop when Eevee seemed to.think it was reasonable to claim. Need to check if I'm remembering right.

Isnt the same true of you?

In fact the same is true of everyone. I hesitated to step up, because my reads are usually trash, so all having me as conf!town does is help a PoE pool. And as conf!town I've directed the lynch onto the wrong person on 2 of 2 occasions. So I was hoping that someone else would step up. I only did it because no one else did and I think 24 hours had passed at the time I did it.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I was wrong earlier. Apparently it was only 4 hours. I guess when I was reading at the time I felt like it had been out for a while because there were like 50 posts in between that discussion and my claim.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'd like to see a full claim from Rick. Also Titus.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Yes. Texcat too

[Billy Pilgrim]

Which players havnt made role claim yet

Texcat, Aaron, Titus, Rick Dalton, kop, Hectic. That's from memory, but I think that's everyone.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Actually billy probably hammers me here if we get close to no lynch on the deadline

If we get close to a no lynch you're probably right. At least your claim flip confirms Bob and i.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I am not interested in a lurker lynch.

I'd be interested in your claim. Since you popped out of nowhere to say we shouldn't lynch Kop.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Wait, we have a doc claim. We had one pr that wasnt suspected (Profii) Why is the doc believable?

Also, mass claim happens now.

I want Rick and Titus first.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I thought the doc would protect profii?

Whod you watch last night?

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Hectic: I'm kind of concerned that you never say anything bad about Kop/Titus/Eevee while they write the word 'Hectic' a combined total of once over all of their posts. Should I be worried?

You basically demanded that we trust you on Hectic. How are you just now seeing this?

[Billy Pilgrim]

The VCA is hard to check without colors. Second, names should NOT be removed. Third, a scum lynch is needed to make any sort of VCA the best tool.

Would like your role claim asap please and thank you.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Eevee flips scum, we're just waiting for his fakeclaim.

Didnt eevee already claim VT yesterday?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I feel like at this point it's fairly obvious to everyone that neither Garmr/Rick wants to be the first one to say whether or not Rick was on X player because

a.) their 'claim' could be proven false based on the result
or
b.) they want to catch the other out

We (Carca/Billy/Dave) should decide which of them claims their result first rather than it being whichever one gives in first.

My vote is for Garmr to full claim results up to last night. Then I want Rick to full claim everything including last night. Then Garmr can give last nights target.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Are people dense or don't they get I'm holding my claim off for a reason when I didn't bother anwsering Billy for the first time.

Did you not see that I gave you an out here? I mean jesus dude. It's like you're angry for the sake of being angry. I want your results up to but excluding last night before Rick claims his full results including last night, then you go with last night. Why are you pissy about that or are you holding off on someone else?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Hopkirk + Titus + Kop are my top scumreads for now. The only non-confirmed person that I'm not scumleaning/reading is Aaron and Garmr, though Aaron's claim of a Hectic-Hopkirk scumpair is slightly dodgy.

I bought Hopkirk's townread on me because apparently I have a "towntell" and he's had similar strong townreads on me in the past that have been accurate while he was town. I was aware it could just be him buddying me, but I was leaning towards him being town since the rest of his play seemed helpful/genuine. This sudden flip on me is really unnatural though, and I don't buy the reasons for it. Kop didn't mention most players in the game. I did mention Titus enough.

Also there's the factor that his scumread on me relies on all of his scumreads being correct, so it's a fairly weak link.

I'm townreading Garmr based on his frustration recently, though perhaps I'm too easily swayed. Could someone remind me of what Garmr lied about earlier in the game which Lilly caught him out for?

Garmr claimed that he voyeured Lilly n1 and that he saw that only the doctor targeted Lilly. That was the point where Lilly was trying to make sure that was a real result than before Garmr confirmed it, she outed that she was ascetic so Garmr's claimed result had to be a lie. Now here's where I'm confused, and I wanted Garmr to eat rope earlier over it. What the fuck is the motivation in lying there. I cant remember if Rick has claimed at that point yet or not, but hes pretty much drawing the doctor claim out at that point which helps scum more than town. I get why he may have lied about that result (to not out Lilly's modifer), but why wouldnt he had just lied and said no one visited.

[Billy Pilgrim]

cant two vt claims that claimed fruit be mafia goon ?

He was loya and simple. If we actually received fruit on the night that Cliff sent it to us, then we're vt. If we got fruit when JJD sent it to us, then we'd be goons.

If the result is faked, then all bets are off.

That chart was missing 2 vt claims. Hopkirk and Aaron.

Can Titus then tex claim please?

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: Titus

Enough stalling. Wheres your claim. You too Pine. Tex can go last.

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: Pine

Still waiting on claims from Pine, Titus, and texcat. Can we lynch Pine now please?

[Billy Pilgrim]

This is complete bullshit. Kop/Pine, texcat, and Titus have all dragged into another day without having to claim. Titus gets lynched tomorrow, and I need a claim from tex like yesterday.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I Iso'd Dave and didnt get much out of it. Suspicious of Titus and had Garmr at the end of his poe lynch pool.

If there's five scum today is LYLO, if theres four we have one more mislynch. At this point my putative vote is on Titus.

[Billy Pilgrim]

1- aaron or eve
2- hopkirk or hectic

atleast one scum in 1 and 2

Why?

[Billy Pilgrim]

actualy i think eve is far better lynch today

Can anyone honestly say he has dine anythign townie of late. If at all.

VOTE: Eve

The same applies to Titus honestly. Cant say Eevee did anything scummy recently either.

Titus and tex claim before I vote. Also, VLA for the next 48 hours.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Can we like mislynch me now.

VOTE: Garmr

Like if you think I'm scum pretend this is a scum claim if your scum jump on this. I really just wanna get lynched.

You realise this is LyLo, so if you're town, you're giving scum the win?
Good job locking yourself as scum.

How do you know that today is LYLO? We don't know that. In fact most of us were operating under the assumption of 4 scum +traitor which means we have one more mislynch. Whyd you say that with so much confidence?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Can we like mislynch me now.

VOTE: Garmr

Like if you think I'm scum pretend this is a scum claim if your scum jump on this. I really just wanna get lynched.

You realise this is LyLo, so if you're town, you're giving scum the win?
Good job locking yourself as scum.

If hes locked as scum why didnt you vote him there?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm pretty sure that scum didn't know about the traitor or they surely would have caught Gook's crumb.

If I was scum I simply wouldn't have noticed it, because I'm not American and I had no idea who Benedict Arnold was. (I've just googled it now after you brought it up).

Of course, the chances are really slim the whole scum team contains no American players.. (but I'm just trying to keep myself in the suspects pool so as not to get shot at night).

I'm beginning to think the chances are high.

So who would that translate to?

[Billy Pilgrim]

The reluctance from everyone but Titus voting for Garmr this game is telling. Titus has a point that people are too unwilling to vote for him.
There might be another town in {Hopkirk, Aaron, Eevee, Texcat}, but I'm sure who yet.

Town have being trying to lynch Titus for ages kinda telling if you ask me. But wanna know why it is hard to lynch me?

The confirmed town won't let me get me mislynched.

.

Everyone being okay with scum!Titus is kind of telling actually. Makes more sense for her to be town rather than her whole scum team bussing her.
Though, the first couple of people to accuse Titus makes a difference, so need to look back for that.

@conf-townies: What'd you think of Garmr now?

I legit dont know what I think. If scum had a tracker that means there were three trackers in game. With what Rick said earlier that would explain Garmr's report on D1. And him forgetting to input an action last night and not checking Rick even once sort of feels weird.

Now town had a decent bit of power so that could potentially warrant a scum tracker. This is why I wanted to keep Cliff around so we could force claims out of people and then actually check some of the VTs. Now were stuck wading through this mess, and I legit cant make sense of it. Bob's wagon analysis definitely didnt look good for the Hectic/Hopkirk pairing, but I dont know that I disagreed with Hop at least on any of his pushes save this quick turn on Hectic.

I am having trouble with this to be honest. I was hoping that I was gonna die early. So let's try this. Let's see who I have scum read and think maybe they're clears. We may be able to do the same with Lilly. Actually this makes me want to lynch Eevee first. I think we both cleared her like 4 days ago. Let's reassess there.

VOTE: Eevee

[Billy Pilgrim]

Hey rex, did you ever claim? If so what's your role. If not, then you should definitely do it now.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Lilly has been conf town since D1 or D2 at the absolute latest. Dave got killed after scum finished hitting the PRs the wanted (namely trackers. Look, scum killed off any way of testing VT claims. I think that's a good place to be looking. I think Garmr could be town and alive because there is always a decent level of interest in support of lynching him. I think we need to deep dive Lilly's reads and assume they are very wrong at least where it matters, because I think she's be dead otherwise. I think something similar is probably true with me after D3 which is why I'm reassessing Eevee. But I think that's what I'm gonna do during the night phase is dog through where the live conf townies are with their reads vs. where the dead ones are at.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Also for anyone claiming me forgetting my action is bs I could of easily went with (oh yeah I was roleblocked) if I was lying.

Admitting you were blocked confirms my role, which stops my mislynch and gets you lynched.

Cara, how can you not see how obviously scum Garmr is?

It confirms your role, it doesnt confirm your alignment.

[Billy Pilgrim]

unless there fake crumbs. prety much mark aaron, eve and titus as scum.

Look who was eitehr side of tchill on the elemntes wagon.

look at weird post in 2997

You saying either side of tchill wagons was the weird oven thing? And that's a traitor crumb how?