Large Normal 231 | Etymologies | Game Over

[quiet]

Heya! Second game, first outta newbie queue, be easy.

First impressions, no looking back at posts, after one causal read-through:

BB {fake}claiming day1 is already the BB I know and love and this is literally my second game. A happy NAI from me. Enjoyed the interplay, but probably won’t read into too many of the reactions to it.

Except Mr. Ping pong paddle, I think that gleeful style might be what I want to be when I grow up. Game is hard, but should be fun.

EE stood out in my first readthrough. I’m impressed as hell that anyone could have a townlist that sized twenty pages into day1. On my re-read, I want to see how everyone else interacted with them. As it is, the high effort and some of the...reactionary responses? they offered might help me sort a little.

Gemma also stood out, maybe because of number of posts, maybe because of the “I don’t like how this day is going, I’m not able to play how I wanted” comment which I think is pretty much how I see their day. Maybe you said it and I missed it, but...how do you want to play? Is there a particular reason why BB being BB messes with that? Especially in a game of this size?

I barely remember the wagons. The new Joyed one came from nowhere as far as I could tell on a first read; I had DGR or DGB or whatever the acronym is as strange but not wagonworthy, and I’m sure there was someone else but clearly I didn’t credit that wagon enough to make note of it.

People I kinda liked on first read:
Titus, ping pong, Gamma, rainyCat, and I think Luca. I reserve the right to flip on all of these; this is one read through flash impressions.

Excited to play!

[quiet]

Also, before I dive in a bit, I’ll throw out my RVS, because as far as I’m concerned, we’re still in it, and Im not going to jump on a wagon without actually thinking.
So sorry VOTE: Binatog13, they’re ain’t enough room in this town for the two of us.

[quiet]

I also remember not liking the votes on NorfolkBoy1. That also stood out. I think I’ll start there and see if I can justify where that feeling is coming from.

[quiet]

@chkflip I’ll get it right moving forward, unfortunately the paddle was more memorable than the name. In my defense....I like ping pong?

NPOM read is interesting, almost like your questioning them about not changing their RVS vote convinced them to...immediately change their vote. For still nearly RVS reasons.

Also all apologies to Rannygazoo. That cat is staring into my soul, and I at least got the first letter right.

[quiet]

Me newbie, I’d guess.
Read over the existing wagons. I like cheaky’s least, and it’s not like we really get anything out of pushing on it if they’re away till the weekend. Save it for later and more posts imo.
Don’t like the mini wagon either.

I do like DGB’s and Joyads a lot more.

Between the two, DGB pinged me more, and I like the people on that wagon more, too. Posting off phone so quoting specifics is proving to be a pain, but I’m happy to elaborate. For now, I’m jumping on board.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: DrippingGoofball

[quiet]

In the time I wrote that post, Mom decided they didn’t like the DGB vote anymore. Can you explain why you voted them initially? For me, it was the joke thing about the oops my PT thread (I think I just hate those jokes), and the general admission that “well I’m always scumread so I guess I’ll have to constantly push against this”. Didn’t feel productive, not a lot of substance, I was okay with the vote. Also what changed?

Then DGB posted a thing I liked. I agree, cheeky is not the biggest lurker.

My lurkery scum read is Hayker, personally.

So I’ve decided that I’m terrible at cold reads, I think I made the wrong call, and will be voting Joyad instead.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: plusJoyed

[quiet]

@norweigianEE, how do you propose to give the game a push?

@gamma cheeky could be scummy, but not with the info I have. If you have a better read I’m happy to hear it. Otherwise, it feels better to push there in a day or two from my perspective. I’m not discrediting the suspicion, just don’t like that wagon rn.

It’s my understanding that it’s good to push productive wagons, especially this early in the day? But maybe I’m missing something. Is cheeky your most scummy read?

[quiet]

My point was to ask if that scum read was strong enough to push a wagon on someone who isn’t here. Maybe it is. I don’t know. I would prefer to wait till the weekend.

[quiet]

the key elements of her play seems to be shading others and useless commentary. That’s not what I expect from Cheeky nor what I expect from town. And her post announcing her leaving is a sign that she’s meeting some nebulous quota of content and then buggering off. Scum do that so they are seen as giving content but also have more wanted from them, keeping themselves just beyond the threshold of being voted by seeming useful.

I think this is kind of my point, just from the other direction. It’s not what you expect from Cheeky is the part of the read I don’t have the info for. It’s not what you’d expect of town? I don’t think that’s as conclusive. If anything, the “oh don’t worry about me I’ll be back see ya” play calls a lot of unwanted attention, as your sus kinda shows. Seems easier just to...not say anything. Or throw less shade. Or do something else.

Now if this is atypical of cheeky, I like the read more. I’m actually decently interested in exploring it. Just don’t see the point when they aren’t here to chime in. Sure, we get to hear from other people, but I like it when my wagons get to experience the pressure in person. Much more satisfying imo.

Maybe I’m stupid, but I liked Mini’s most recent wall of questions, and saw them as towny. Was kinda sad I didn’t get one.

[quiet]

Like don’t get me wrong, I understand where Luca is coming from, but

The mafia PT theory is not convincing to me whatsoever

The idea that asking a lot of questions and not giving reads is just filler seems to come up a lot, but again I wonder if scum actually does this with any frequency. Can anyone give me an example of a game where scum produces filler content? I’d love to see some examples of what this filler looks like in practice, because if this is it, again, it calls a lot of attention to itself. Wouldn’t filler content try to be more subtle?

[quiet]

What makes you think this?

Oh my I DID get a question after all!

I considered the game still in RVS because I had only read through the thread once, none of the wagons had really picked up any kind of steam, and frankly none of them stood out to me so much on the first read that I wanted to throw my vote on, which I knew I wanted to do. I was hoping that going back and choosing between wagons would be a smaller scope that I could try to scumhunt within, but then it all went to shit and the biggest part of my read on DGB got disproven literally while I was writing my post deciding to jump on that wagon. So clearly even that smaller scope wasn’t enough.


Plus I’m still new enough that RVS hasn’t lost its luster, it made me happy to draw a line in the sand. My whole identity as a newbie is threatened by the existence of another and it felt productive to draw the line in the sand. They did say I was towny though, so I guess I can share the role.

[quiet]

you're not scumhunting you're just trying to look like you are

Genuine question, now applied to both cheeky and mini

Is this really scummy? Like can someone give me a game or three where scum did this? It gets read as scummy, but to me it seems really bad for that exact reason.

[quiet]

Ah so we are still in RVS then after all. Vote first questions later got it. I’ll fall in line.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Cheeky

So now that I did the thing, can someone answer my question? Seems like a fair trade. Link me any examples where scum actually behaved like either a) “I need to take a vacation, throw shade, see you later” or b) filler content, such as asking lots of questions, “not actually scumhunting”, etc. I want to see some of it in action. My bad pet theory is that reports of such scummy behavior by actual scum are grossly overstated.

[quiet]

If any of these wagons so far have been on scum i doubt they’ve felt threatened.

I’m with BB here, this is a reason why the cheeky wagon feels boring. cheeky isn’t even here to threaten.

[quiet]

I’ll drop it, i can feel myself getting out in the weeds, but I guess I still wonder if that kind of logic wouldn’t also hold for unmotivated town. I’m not convinced it’s AI is all.

Nah I get it, I’m okay enough with it to vote it. I didn’t read their posts as towny, just need some more evidence to back the low activity shade throwing=scum read. If Gemma says they also have a cheeky specific read on it, I’m cool with it. The waiting till cheeky is here is just a preference thing. We could conceivably have a whole different wagon come and gone by then.

[quiet]

Going through some isos, and just saw that I missed this.

Good to have you here, Quiet.

Good to be here! Nice to have a few familiar faces.

I'm adding chkflip to my townreads with Norway and Mini.

Mini wagon took off since this, plus the long set of questions they posted. Do you still maintain this read?

[quiet]

Like, bro, I’m not your paralegal

Not anymore, you’re fired. I’m now hiring a new paralegal. Feel free to apply below.

On the topic of my alleged sea-lionness (which is slander, and I’ll see you in court)

I don’t think the barrier was quite as extreme as you are making it sound. The argument I made is one that really only works on myself. If people say that this is how scum play, that they have played this way while scum, I’ll believe them. I’d still like to see an example of it, not as a barrier to a mini vote, but because I want to be able to recognize it in the future. There’s twenty people in this thread, I don’t think asking if someone could point me towards something I could use to get better (especially if it’s as wildly common as people are saying it is) is all that egregious.

Entitled, maybe, but hey I’m a lawyer now. It’s gone to my head.

[quiet]

You know, if I saw several votes on me after being away for a while, I’d feel rather pressured.

You know what, I concede the point entirely. I’m coming out of newbie setup with 9 players, where wagons build a lot faster-I’d be less happy with quicker pushes for VLA people there. In a larger game, it’s totally reasonable. These wagons need a lot of inertia to get moving.

[quiet]

Nah fair enough I’ll be quiet till I have a point. Wish me luck in finding one, I’m like 0.5/3 rn.

[quiet]

Is it normal to claim in this early phase of day 1?

Was also going to ask this, but frankly I don’t think “normal” rules apply to either not-Not_Mafia or BBmola here, the two claimy people, who appear to have the style of I claim what I want when I want to. I’d be curious if anyone has methods they use to sort players like that.

My understanding that negative util roles are supposed to claim ASAP; there are probably other roles that should claim ASAP, but most get more useful not claiming. Don’t know how useful rolehunting or even discussing is day1, it helps maf at least as much and often way more than town.

[quiet]

Speaking of Quiet, it's taking alot to not latch onto quiet. It's really disturbing how he's so focused on the fact that he's new and fresh and green player. I feel like alot of his post amounts to IIOA
and doesn't really have much of a point but at the same time he's trying

really hard[/I[ to engage and interact with the people around him

Perfect timing!

Hi, I’m quiet. Unfortunately, I think you’ve nailed me both as a human and def as a mafia player. Very excited, very high effort, no clue how to direct it usefully, no clue how to summarize down to analysis vs just spewing information. If anything, what I do is worse, because I ask a bunch of meta questions (so do scum actually do the low post count thing, or is that overstated?)

Not not-Mafia has told me to find a point. Now you have too. It’s good advice. It’s also challenging. This post is very much not in keeping with that goal of finding a point, but it seems relevant anyhow?

[quiet]

Hayker. PlusJOYED. Cheeky.

I’m on board with all of these, especially hawker.

These are also (I believe) the first, second, and third most lurkey slots. Do you have any reads that aren’t on lurkers? Or was that the basis of your reads?

[quiet]

I think the point I was trying to get to with my request for notarized examples was this. It seems like low-count (and low content) posters get scumread. I scumread them. It’s also easy to latch on to one bad post when there’s only ten of them. I have been convinced that scum play this way, but it also feels like...a really simple read to make that will often catch not-scum.

I understand the point of pushing one of those slots anyway to try to sort them, because without posting and without previous days votes or night actions we have nothing to go on. I guess I’m just trying to figure out how to tell the difference between actually busy or shy town or nervous power role and scum.

Also in my brain, if this is such an obvious scumtell, why wouldn’t scum just...not do it? I know it’s not that simple, but I think that’s the point I was trying to make.

All that being said, I still sus all three of those for exactly the same reason, so I guess I’m just a hypocrite.

[quiet]

But there is a massive difference between what you just described and not posting at all. I’m lost trying to solve most of the time as town. I can apply the same shitty methodologies when I’m scum, and end up with a mix of good and bad results. I don’t know, it just feels like not posting is an answer, but especially day1, bad town reads are practically expected. I would think that lurkey activity would get worse as time goes on, and maybe people are out the gate trying to set that precedent, but doing it day1 just draws so much attention...

I’ll drop it.

[quiet]

Take a look at the burst of activity from Cheeky, it was a classic scum way of dialoguing.

Yeah this makes sense to me. Happy with my vote here right now.

In a similar vein, I was trying to decide if those kind of wall catch-up posts in general (hi Luca) are in any way AI. I liked what Luca said, but also recognize that it would be an effective playstyle as scum; it kind of lets you answer questions/be responsive. Mini got sussed for practically the same posting style in a slightly different context.

[quiet]

To be clear, I have Luca in my town bucket right now. I don’t want to have that appear like I’m shading them. Not my intent.

[quiet]

Catching up on today's excitement. A wild Not_Mafia appears. I'm just going to not think about it too hard and hold to the cheeky line. See no reason to change the read there, and see no way to read Not_Mafia.

A lot of quiet’s early posts seem non-committal and don’t really say much. I’m rather intrigued by the slot. Like they’re claiming to be somewhat of a newbie so give them some room, but the posts actually seem well thought out. Except for the fact that... there’s barely any fire to them.

I’ll give an example. 598 is analyzing a post by Luca that well, was harshly criticizing Mini for not really contributing anything useful. But quiet is interpreting it as a legitimate argument. It’s a strange take. And this question about whether Scum ever produce filler content? Of course they do! Everybody does. It’s not AI actually unless you start seeing a lot of filler as a means of distraction.

This is prob the best take i've seen on my posting. I'll review 598/try to clarify what I meant by the filler content thing if ya want, but it probably isn't all that useful.

I like your take because it kind of highlights what I see as the biggest issue with my play right now. I can be well thought out, that is something within my ability to control. If I take my time while posting, I can do that. But being useful, directed, "fiery", having a point, some kind of purposiveness... that is a lot harder. I'm trying to keep the scope of my attention today mostly to visible wagons (mini, cheeky, plus, etc), people that stand out for some reason (the aggressive Bypasser, high-frequency-king Norwegian), or reactions/responses to me as it helps keep it manageable.

I thought Andres put a similar amount of attention and interest into the rest of their catch up posts, and generally liked the slot before today, so they're town to me. I thought the interactions between Mom and Dad I mean Andres have been interesting. I was kinda hoping someone else would chime in. I have a decent townlean on Mom, too.

[quiet]

I thought I said "Dad I mean Andre" as a joke, but maybe I messed it up or something. In that post dad=andre.
Also andre didn't know what to think of me and wanted me to have more fire and honestly I think that qualifies him for the position as dad.

I'm townlean on Mom because she strikes me as independently solving. Also, Mom seems generally protective, which I find interesting.

That's a really weird way to get me to back down on my interrogation on your pursuit of mini. I feel like they are being unfairly treated, and they are being railed on.

The points against NM is fair though, and I'm aware of cheekys preferences and NMs disposition to games but I would hate to [elim] on policy, which is what it does kinda feel like to me

Lurksack nero is definitely a worry but I feel like there may be other reasons he's not wholly here I outside of alignment

Spoiler:

A slightly...imperfect example, that felt related but not exactly the same because they were backing down on their own read of DGB vs. defending someone else's

I think theyre town. They are playing boldly, and wildly and like they aren't really thinking things through. They were far cagier in yellowstone

Actually this whole post/interaction is interesting and I wonder if anyone else has any takes on it.

Momangral, do you feel like lurkey people get miselimed? Seems to be the common denominator between the first three. You are also sus of Gamma and Norwigian and a few others I don't really see pinged by anyone else (or at least not very many people). Do you like the plusJoyad wagon more than the cheeky wagon?

[quiet]

also I like the protective mother angle please don't stop thanks okay back to being thoughtful

[quiet]

she’s going after high-activity slots (me and Nor), which kinda seems counter-intuitive

and defending low-activity slots. It's like the inverse of everyone else.

[quiet]

I can relate to that post tbh as there are certain players I find completely unreadable, who I hope to be resolved by PR's.

Hey this is from a long time ago, but which players do you find completely unreadable?

[quiet]

I get fakeclaiming dayvig, daycop, PGO, odd-night ninja serial killer mason... but miller? It sounds like an impulsive scum move that was recanted after someone suddenly recalled that rolecops are a thing.

Seems just like BB to me.

Other than disagreeing on that read, I've liked everything DGB has posted since just before I voted them. Liked their posts today a lot. Town to me.

[quiet]

Suspicious
- MiniMegabyte
- Rannygazoo
- Binatog13

I thought I liked Rainycat. I'm going to go see if I can articulate why.

[quiet]

In post 1054, Luca Blight wrote:
Can we at least consolidate onto the PlusJOYED wagon to breathe some life back into this day? It feels atm like we're going through the motions and Not_Mafia's elim is inevitable.

Fair enough to me. I've got PlusJoyed/Not_Mafia/Hayker all in my PoE and could switch my vote to any if there is desire for it.

Could we do Hawker instead?
They’re here right now, and more scummy to me than plus atm.

VOTE: Hayker

I personally still feel comfortable with NM today, but that’s strictly holding the line the fact that I know I won’t be able to read NM and thought cheeky was scummy.

But I liked my nickname. PrimeFighter. It’s probably an insult that I don’t understand but it was nice anyway.

[quiet]

quiet

No I miss it put it back.

Bypasser, do you disagree on Hayker? Or at least putting pressure on that slot? Or do I just generally scumping like crazy for you.

Since they’ve gone back they’ve come for NM and Norwegian in relatively low-effort ways. I scumread the slot before they got back, and am on board with (I think Andres) sentiment that I’m comfortable waiting till plus gets back before putting pressure there. Why not push here?

[quiet]

This was Hayker's day. After a few posts on the BBMola situation, we get to here:

vote:Andres
Originally I misread Andres post a bit and was going to point out I consider it a scum tell to insist onesself is town, but Andres didn't quite do that. Even so it feels very offputting. The cockyness of " oh I wont react.

Really didn't like this read, especially in context of 100 posts after first two posts with nothing else said/done.

Then we move on to at this point well wagonned DGB:

In post 213, DrippingGoofball wrote:
In post 195, Rannygazoo wrote:
NPOM is unreadable. If any investigative role out there wants to check them tonight, don’t let me stop you.
Are you crumbing RB?
Are you role fishing?

Loggint this aa a tell/slip. Specifically the last time I rolled scum. Not enough on its own though, espwcially since I see two ways to read this message. But last time I rolled scum. I once used wording like this and was called for it on another site

I thought this was mostly shade throwing.

I liked this. This was a townping from me.

Oddly enough the more DGB posts the less I scumread them

But now these two back to back:

I don't know how I missed this before. Probably trying to play these games with just my phone. You fake claimed miller? Was this move just for discussion purposes? This does not feel townie at all to me. Miller can cause a lot of chaos and confusion to the town, and fake claiming it at that.

Heybbmolla

BBmolla

What on earth is this absolute garbage tier shit posting.

vote:not_mafia

Absolute rubbish. This is considered allowed play?

Same bad vote for basically the same bad reasons. These are the world's easiest outs. And then goes after Norwigian when there is pushback against the timing of the NM vote. I just don't see this as trying to solve the game. I would rather push for more detail here right now.

I can almost accept the playing on phone/playing lots of games/was busy rationale. Unfortunately that rationalle is also scummy. I want to see more to sort it. Voting is how I get that.

[quiet]

Don't know how to multiqoute, but Bypasser, what do you think the point of Hayker chiming in on your one-line back and forth with Norwigian was? Like why jump on that interaction?
I read the interaction like this
Bypasser: Gives reads, says didn't read full thread
Norwigian: Says reads are bad, says go read thread and be better
Bypasser: Got something useful to say?
Norwigian: Did I stutter? Calling your reads bad was useful (and/or i've been useful, what have you been doing)?

Either way, interesting back and forth.

Hayker clipped the last line "Everything is useful", and shaded it like this:

I strongly dislike posts like this. "everything I said is useful" Just insisting that ones own play is good. Never a good thing to see.

Of everything in the thread, that's what we focus on? Of everything Norwegian has posted, that's the scumping? And why are we targeting Norwegian here after being gone from the thread for a while? It seems off to me.

[quiet]

Andres is someone I read as super towny due to their suspicion of Norwegian and the way they went about it. Hayker feels to me like someone who read Andre’s recent posts and decided to jump on board.

Fine sorry DGB if we want to stay on NM and end the day just say the word and I’ll move my vote back. I thought we were getting another wagon on, and want Hayker more than I want plus.

I think I’ll just spoiler all longer comments from now on and write a tldr at the end, I don’t know how to be brief or effective.

[quiet]

All the Hayker quotes you posted lean more town than scum.

I just disagree. It’s the purpose behind them I read as scummy, and the absence from the thread otherwise. Why did Hayker spend their time on the people they did?

I think you just want NM gone yesterday. Which I can understand in principal, but I’m okay taking a day or two off a wagon that was almost casually hammered to get more info elsewhere.

[quiet]

If i could vote both Hayker and Plusjoyed at the same time i probably would.

I don’t particularly want to set up a competing wagon. Plus falls into the same (if less intense) category as Hayker and Cheeky for me, and I don’t mind voting here if that’s just better. I’m thinking back to NorfolkBoy’s comments about easy targets, though, and feel like she’s the easiest. That doesn’t mean not scummy, as someone pointed out tells are tells for a reason, but just feelsbad I guess.

[quiet]

not to townslip but how many scum usually in a large

I would like it if someone with more experience could chime in with some more data points, but I looked at a few other finished games of about this size, and it looked like 4-5 scum, 4ish town poweroles (with one or two weaker and one or two stronger, most with a few modifiers).

I don’t know if it is typically like this though, or if (as random examples) we are in a world with zero power roles or all power roles or three scum with superpowers, I don’t know if any of those options are considered Normal games. For my sanity, can anyone summarize about what I should expect the game state to be?

[quiet]

I think I really like bypasser today.

Also, is this

I've thought about it for the past 20 minutes and I've decided i think im actually confident enough to locktown gamma here. Explanation on request after gamma responds to me.

More of this?

I was half bluffing the statement tbqh. When I enter a game I pretend to make strong reads that I myself am not actually confident in because strong reads generate strong reactions which lead to stronger reads.

Personally, Gamma kind of scares me, but in the intense way of like, not wanting to disappoint a teacher. That is not AI, the only thing I’ve noted there is they seem to be targeting the high frequency posters vs. most others searching in the low frequency. I’m slightly towny on them, but if you have a stronger sort I’d like to hear it.

[quiet]

Compare their meta and get back to me.

So I went and tried to do this. Joyed has a lot of games, generally posts a fair amount as either alignment.

Mini 2167 he was mafia, and posted frequently, responsively, etc. while Joyed is not playing like they normally do, it’s clear they don’t have to rely on newbscum tactics like avoid the thread. Am I missing something in their meta that makes you like voting joyed more?

I guess I’m not seeing how meta necessarily supports Joyed over hawker. I understand not being super impressed with the catch up though.

[quiet]

why?
can you explain why the lack of post content from you by the way?

This please. Also just a taste of some content would be really nice. Throw a bone to the town puppy here.

[quiet]

Thought I'd give this a shot. Ordered by gut.

Spoiler:

Town

Andres (my locktown)
Bypasser Catcher (when does content, is real real good content.)

Towny

Vaxkiller (good content, great catch up posts, probably shouldn’t read Vax this high but just like them on gut)
Luca Blight (+town interactions p. much all the time, putting in work)
Gamma Emerald (trusting Bypasser read, liked them beforehand too, is scary, think it’s the avatar)
DrippingGoofball (thought responses to/posts since wagon on them were super towny)
Nero Cain (really liked them early, a bit quiet since but still read them here)
NorwegianboyEE (I would love to see if scum!Norwegian is capable of posting at this frequency + detail and not get caught out)

Null
Titus (do they have tells?)
chkflip (liked them early, kinda grumpy lately, null right now)
BBMolla (ha as if i’d read BB)
Norfolk Boy1 (town content, low post count, need more time to sort, but like his presence in the game)
Binatog13 (perfectly capable of this posting like he is as either alignment)
MiniMegabyte (still slandered from early wagon, but I didn’t find it too compelling then or now)
Momrangal (disagree with most reads/posts from them)

Scummy

plusJOYED (we want a readlist!)
Rannygazoo (I don’t think I’ve liked a single one of your posts. Sorry, Rainycat)

Scum

Hayker (my preferred low content wagon. didn’t like pop in at all. didn’t like Norwegian shade either.)
CheekyTeeky/NM (think just flips red, I understand the utility of wait and let sort themselves via claim, but idk, I like flipping red)

heybbmola good to see you. I am also pro flipping a slot soonish. Is there anything else to get out of today? Or are we just waiting for votes to consolidate.

[quiet]

Yeah I’ll wait to respond to the real Bypasser, but quick thoughts:
I figured DGB would be a controversial read. I can do a dive to justify if you want.
Don’t know why locktown andres is all that controversial. I’d be curious why that pinged
Nero is one of my least confident reads, but I liked them better than the people in null. It was the last I put on the list.
Vax and Mom, I think the pings are probably fair.

Strong disagree with you that Bino is obvtown, which is a take I think you gave in reference to their NotMafia response.. They have two games, one scum, one mason, and both post exactly like this. I think them saying “I think NotMafia put me on top of the readlist to try to shade me by association” is just...Binatog.

[quiet]

What?

I don’t think my stated reasons why I put Vax or Mom where I did were super clear or effective. I think it’s fair for him to not like them.

[quiet]

I can try. Going to spoiler again, as this doesn't feel that productive/as organized as I'd like.
Here's more thoughts on why I put mom where I did

Spoiler:

For Mom, things I like:
"let mola play, solid scumhunter, boon for town if town"
"CAN WE STOP TALKING ABOUT CLAIMS"
Sus of me, actually. Reminds me of town in a different game.
Willing to vote Ranny, I was in full agreement with them in not liking that string of posts.

Things that confused me/I didn't like:
back and forth with Andre, especially the thing about Andre's tone being "size me up". Felt almost purposely obtuse/arguing not in good faith.
Stating that specificity of NM's claim was towny.
That readlist. Plusjoyed and Hayker just above being scummy, Binatong + me + gamma as scum, NM as just below town, townlock Mini, DBG, Titus... it confuses the hell out of me.
A little lurkey. Just a little. Pops in at interesting times.

From my perspective, we see the game very differently, the last person that just flat out hated my play was very town, I like some stuff I don't like others, so it's null for me, but near the bottom.

I can do the same thing for Vax, but I find myself agreeing with Rannygazoo. Huh. I liked a rainycat post. I don't know how useful my reads are anyway, just wanted to put them out there. Probably why I spoilered them.

[quiet]

Ok, I thought you were about to tear into it

Me too, and I was not emotionally prepared.

I'm going to go hide I mean work for a bit. Someone ping me if they need me.

[quiet]

supposedly important content?

because I'm literally insecure about it being important content.
I am absolutely sure that very few people care about my justifying my day1 read on Mom. if they do, they can click the button and read it.

I'm trying to post less walls of useless info. It's day1, and I'm struggling to find useful info in a 20 person game that hasn't already been discussed to death. It feels like we're almost in a holding pattern at this point, waiting for a flip, night kills, and night actions for more info.

[quiet]

I tried to start spoilering a bit in my first newbie game at the end, for the same reason. trying to not do the distracting wallpost thing.

[quiet]

but why Nero over either leading wagon?

This.

I'll VOTE: Nero Cain, as what has been said by Gamma, Norwigian, Mom is compelling enough to me. I think I put less weight in noticing the NM claim being scummy, and more weight in the unNero-like response.

But is Nero a viable wagon at this point in the day?

Otherwise, can we consolidate onto Hayker (or NM, or whoever else) and move forward?

[quiet]

To clarify, by unNero-like response, I mean how they seem "disinterested", how this playstyle is not similar to how they were town in other games, how Gamma noted their return was phrased in a way they wouldn't expect of town, the presupposition of scum!Mom as a reason to defend, etc. Those pings were more compelling to me than the idea that they knew about what I thought was a fairly visible, loudly discussed, very possibly trolly claim by a very...attention grabbing player?

Long day, being even less clear than normal. Sorry.

[quiet]

Why couldn't Nero cain be a viable wagon?
What makes Hayker or NM more viable?

NM is clearly viable, they went to E-1
Hayker is clearly viable, they went to E-5 or E-4 I believe.

We’re at E-7 with you included on Nero?

It was a genuine question. Maybe there are seven Nero votes floating around. If Nero is viable, then they’re viable, and I’m happy to sit here.

Plus am I expected to expect you to vote Nero? I thought you wanted some non meta reasons first.

[quiet]

Hmm being vote seven is a compelling reason I apologize for questioning your willingness to vote here.

[quiet]

huh I guess the nero wagon was viable after all.

I may have had very light reasons to vote Nero when I jumped on the wagon from Hayker, but I am exceptionally happy to be on this wagon right now. My vote stays. Don't buy the claim whatsoever. The only progression I saw was anger at everyone voting them -> depression self vote -> no point in bargaining -> acceptance of their fate. But also I know for a fact I don't like playing with angry players, and that might be coloring my read. I didn't have the time I wanted to read over old games, but I'm satisfied enough with what has been said.

Plus I'm with Norfolk, and a few others. This sure as hell seems to provide a lot more info than Hayker's elim.

Also the gamestate seemed to change pretty seriously since I last posted. Today was some early susses, then an almost casual hammer on NM, a slow moving, stalled out wagon on Hayker, then whatever the hell the last 20something pages have been of fighting over Nero's slot. Three very different wagons.

Does anyone have a take on why the game slowed down when Hayker was up? Is it just because it wasn't a very exciting elim?

[quiet]

I mean Nero this is a mistake yeah? You should have outted and condemned Not_Mafia to an execution.

Is it worth outing a PR to catch scum? Is there a guarantee that there is only one Tracker PR? Cause if we can use this to sort NM sooner than waiting for that weak every other night BS, I'm all for it.

[quiet]

even a player like NM, where you expect them to get elimmed in a day or two when they can't prove either of their trolly claims?
(sorry NM if they aren't trolly claims)

[quiet]

What Bypasser said makes sense to me. I could understand not claiming then, operating under the assumption that NM would get elimmed pretty inevitably in a day or two if they had faked the claim (and i'm like, 85% sure that is the world we are living in), but putting pressure back on NM or someone else makes more sense that what actually went down.

[quiet]

Here’s my issue with your logic here. You are quite certain that Not_Mafia is Scum and making a false Role claim correct? So why are you happy about your Nero vote again? Nero is so sure Not_Mafia is Scum, they fakeclaimed Not_Mafia’s role in frustration. So clearly they’re not aligned as Scum.

This was not my read whatsoever. I read them as either distancing, or trying to claim that NM had faked the tracker claim, that he was the real tracker all along.

Or are you saying this is VT fakeclaiming a PR???

I elim that anyway.

[quiet]

pedit (I think that's how that phrase works) fair point on the distancing thing. My original impression was this is just a fake pr claim to try and survive, and that's still the vibe I get, but if someone is telling me that VT FAKE FRUSTRATION CLAIMS are a thing, then, shit, I guess that's a thing. I wanted to understand if a real PR would actually come out earlier for the notMafia fake/real/whatever claim. I saw the distancing thing in Bypasser's post and was like, mm, yeah, I guess that could also make sense, it's a reasonable reason for it to happen.

[quiet]

Thanks RainyCat.

Spoiler:

@Nero so the tracker claim was officially fake? Is that what I'm hearing? Can I get you to either double down or back off the claim?

[quiet]

Unless they had a PR read for some reason/took that into consideration when making the kill.

Are we still waiting another day for the NM claim to play out?

[quiet]

Unfortunate.

Read through Mini’s posts just now, but didn’t see any breadcrumbs even in retrospect or tells that could tip of that they were a PR. So I now have no idea why that kill happens. Maybe the whole “scum lurk” meta is kinda just not true.

Of the three people Andre sussed on the Nero wagon, I think I look the worst. I think the reasoning that BC gave on himself (“why would I burn all my towncred day1 pushing town as visibly as I did”) also holds for Luca to some degree. Seems to me scum would just hop on for light reasons, vote quietly, or say “I don’t know about this but whatever”, not be the face of the miselim. I think I fall into that same category, more than those other two.

As I said yesterday, my reason for jumping on the Nero wagon was light, but when I came back and saw the E-3 claim of tracker and the vitriolic pushback, I became very happy with my vote. I didn’t buy the claim for a second; that sealed the deal for me. Unfortunate that it was wrong. Apparently VT frustrated fakeclaims are a thing.

[quiet]

Am going to have to see if the Mini flip gives any info, and didn’t do as much over the night to read back as I’d wanted, so I’m hoping I have better takes in a bit, but right now:

The vocal scum push on Nero only makes sense if Hayker was also scum. Otherwise if scum on the wagon, it seems to me it would be quieter scum. But also given the last two flips lurkey scum meta might just be a hoax.

NM still is scummy.

[quiet]

So let me get this straight.

After sorta kinda claiming two roles after replacing into a widely considered scummy slot, both kinda trolly, one that literally could not be confirmed for two nights.

NM selected the one and only player that killed to track in a lobby of 19 (and why I can see the argument for a Norfolk track, I think there are other choices that might swing more obvious)

And this seems likely to people?

Additionally, I’ve done my very best to read back on some older 20ish person games to see how many power roles were likely to see. One PR is dead. 4-maybeee 5 scum, 4-5 PRs expected.

Is that correct?

Given the size/closed nature of the game, are counterclaims a thing at all like they would be in a newbie game? Would it even be worth counterclaiming for a PR, given that for sure we get one scum in 2 nights here, and that gives up info to the scum team, plus any role counterclaim that could exist could theoretically coexist with NMs? And that’s assuming someone even has a role that would conceivably block NMs claim. Is there any other way to determine which we should elim tonight besides just reads? The counterclaim thing was kinda discussed yesterday with Nero, as a reason why his panic claim looked scummy.

I understand why people might go Norfolk first, as if NM tracker is real, is boon to town. But they prob get killed tonight anyway if they are real. So that argument may be less valuable.

I guess I’m asking how important it is that we elim correct tonight, given that we are garenteed one scum in the next two. Is that pace too slow?

[quiet]

Not pushing it.

As far as I’m concerned one of the two of them gets voted tonight.

If the pace of one scum in two nights is fast enough, then sure, let’s do Norfolk first.

If it’s not, if an extra town elim night is decently bad for town, especially given the source of this claim, which is why I asked the question, then yeah, I do think at least questioning it is worthwhile.

Maybe this is my newbie showing. But uh....

NM is dead tmmrw if their claim was false from day1. They were probably dead yesterday without it. So this is looking like the only play. I want to discuss it at least. If it’s stupid, it’s stupid

[quiet]

This is actually me asking. Andre, you think it’s a stupid idea, okay, it probably is then. That’s why I asked.

Didn’t mean to aggravate. Sorry.

[quiet]

DON'T BE FUCKIN' TIMID.

My name is literally quiet. Timid is like, my whole thing.
Don’t take it from me, it’s all I have.

I’m so quiet that Mom didn’t even notice me enough to put me on her reads list but still thinks I’m scummy.
It’s tragic really.


Andres. Is what they did really softing the role? They claimed two roles yesterday.
And would they really target someone scummy or someone dangerous? I thought Norfolk was basically the perfect frame.

Or maybe Norfolk is just scum, and we get a tracker out of the bargain. GGs NM for the god tier tracker choice.
If you’re happy with two elims for one mafia in the worst case, that it’s always worth the risk to maybe save a tracker to the point that even DISCUSSING it is preposterous, then sure. I’ll be on board.

VOTE: norfolk

[quiet]

I’m curious as to this. I don’t think I’m a bad player, but I certainly don’t know that if I think something is correct, then it is. We’re all fallible. Always feel free to argue logic with me that’s all good.

All good. It’s not that Inthink you’re infallible, it’s that in a situation like this (just always vote the tracker guilty and if it’s wrong get the tracker next), you’ve probably seen it before, I haven't ever. I’ll differ to you or other people I read towny and experienced there.

Maybe we evaluate the scummyness of NMs slot differently, and that is also part of it.

[quiet]

Not enough game presence or pull to make it worth the inevitable execution the next day.

How does scumNM avoid execution tmmrw in any circumstance? I was under the impression they always die tmmrw.

No one claims neighborized by them. Okay so they’re scum.

I guess they could have held to the tracker claim. Said they tracked got nothing.

[quiet]

If there’s a path to survival for them tmmrw as scum that I’m not seeing, I’ll be a lot less suspicious.

My point is today is probably the only day the positive tracker result on Inno is viable. If scumNM, they were being bussed yesterday most likely to some degree. Very easy wagon. Them being traded for a kill is actually pretty decent, given how likely they are to die ASAP, and given how little info it gives on other scum.

But I’m off in the weeds. It’s Norfolk today, I guess, unless Norfolk has something exceptional.

[quiet]

Fair, okay, I’m convinced that it’s not the only path, and that there are other things scumNM could have done, which makes missing the chance of a tracker more convincing of a reason for me to set my NM paranoia aside.

Norfolk did end on Nero, yes. He said it would help him with a theory he was developing, to tell us today.

[quiet]

8 votes on by my count.

[quiet]

Yeah it looks like it’s E-2.

We maybe want to wait for Norfolk to get on?

[quiet]

In the words of BC,

Gamma, Andre, you’re both town :///

[quiet]

VOTE: Not_Mafia

I’ll be off till the evening, but I’d like to discuss/review how the day1 NM wagon died.

Around post 1053, there’s a lot that went down. I have some notes on some interactions around that wagon (which also coincided with the Mini wagon, so we should really have a lot of info), but they’re v. disorganized and I don’t have time to clean up and post them atm.

Will be popping in and out of service till EOD.

[quiet]

Screw it, I’ll post them anyway. Sorry they’re literally unformatted, I didn’t expect to get called in today and thought I’d have time to actually write them up. I’m sure I’m missing some stuff.

1053

Luca bright: 1028 votes NM, 7 min later unvotes for PLUSjoyad

Luca Bright: scummy 1054

Gamma: town (unless bussing day1 and why)

Vaxkiller: a lil scummy for wanting Mini more 619
Also Luca Bright for the epic Mini shade 592

But are they ever scum together when that happens? Scum quoting scum? I think one or other not both.

NPOM/Bypasser Catcher-town. One of the first votes on Cheeky.

Scummy: chkflp. Don’t like push on NPOM, don’t like presence in thread.

Andres-trying real hard to defend NM yesterday. I think it’s just wrongtown though.

Vaxkiller-pushing Titus narrative subtly. If Titus green, push here hard.

Vaxkiller-I think NM is just fucking with us. But moved off NM yesterday. Informed? Or just suspicious like me.

Rainycat-town.

Bb-town. Agree with chkflp sus, progression makes sense.

Hayker: officially town read now.

[quiet]

Like Norwegian is Scum I’m pretty sure. So they’re looking to paint me as Not_Mafia’s biggest defender to push me next. But like I was clearly struggling with it. You can be objective about it.

Agree with the second half of this.

Andre remains (sigh) way in my town pile. If I’m wrong I’m wrong, but I townread you.

Those notes were just me searching for votes and discussion around the first NM wagon and yesterday. I think you look bad, but were town. I don’t know if Norwegian is scum for pushing you here, but you did come up a lot in and around those discussions. You’re a decent target for scum to miselim, but I could also see town sussing you. Don’t think I hard read Norwegian scummy off of it.

[quiet]

UNVOTE:

I want a good, long day.

[quiet]

quiet I’d also like to say for the record this is an unusual game not all larges go like this haha

2/2 on unusually hard games I guess.

Any idea why this game is so unusual? Mini/math NK snipes PR, double fake sorta claim, VT salty fake claim...

Who orchestrates this?

[quiet]

i don't

You think discussing all the info we have is ever bad? Of which we talked about zero whatsoever yesterday?

I’m never voting outside NM today.

Fair on your second point.

[quiet]

Now we have info. Yesterday much less so.

[quiet]

Hey @NM

Why did you target Norfolk night 1?

[quiet]

Norwegian what’s your current Gamma read? I’ve gotten no results from metadiving, it seems like they are capable of playing how they have as either alignment.

If NM scum I think that looks rather good for Gamma, but I’d like your taken given the strong TR he gives you.

[quiet]

Still on phone to end of day.

Is there anything valuable we can get out of today? I want to assess the NM wagon from day 1 and how it stalled/related to the mini wagon, which we have a confirmed town on. That seems useful. I think there are others (chckflp, Titus apparently) that can do that analysis better than me. Has anyone else reviewed that wagon? Thoughts?

Personally I think NMs iso is likely way less useful than...well, basically anything else. But do let me know if you find any gems in there.

[quiet]

Scum interference obviously, considering you outted my tracker soft

I’m sorry.

Was what you did soft in any way? Is there any world where scum doesn’t notice it? You italicized each letter.

In my opinion, you hardclaimed two roles on day1.

[quiet]

Can anyone tell me how any of this is wrong aside from "LuL yOu FaKeClAiMeD", if Norfolk was scum this would have been a great gambit

Can you tell me how any player would ever be able to differentiate your play from pure scum play?

Especially after you replaced into a scummy slot?

If you were town, you don’t reveal any results yesterday unless you are absolutely mechanically positive. You don’t get shot at night, because you were so damn scummy people wanted to vote you regardless of the claim. There was no reason to push like that yesterday as town.

It might have been plausible, but it’s just a bad play. Everyone says you’re rather good under the trolling. Or perhaps because of the trolling. From my perspective, what’s more believable?

TownNM makes high risk insane play when we’re already down a power role and a VT fakeclaim that gives scum legit reasons to push an elim without consequence?

ScumNM burns scummy slot in a trade for a town player, surviving what would have otherwise been a high frequency day1 elim? Especially if this is set up in advance so the other scum can bus appropriately?

[quiet]

Sorry, there are 4-5 scum.

At least one of them is paying attention.

More importantly, at least 3 town noticed independently. From that ratio, and given that scum are PR hunting, you really think they missed italicized capitalized letters?

[quiet]

During the day, they’re PR hunting. As in, trying to determine who the PRs are.

I’m not saying they’re elimming there always, but there’s at least five reasons I can think of off the tip of my head why scum would be trying to read the thread to find PRs. RBs, night kill targeting, who to send to do the kill, who to try to miselim, all these things are things that scum gains utility from discovering PRs.

[quiet]

Sorry do you not try to identify PRs, search for breadcrumbs, etc as scum?

No, not a single thing. Even in retrospect I don’t know why Mini got killed. I tried to find something and couldn’t. This makes me think it’s a mini/mathblade targeted kill for some random reason, or maybe there’s a role that gives night0 info. Idk.

I’m talking about NMs argument that Rainycat outed the PR. I’m arguing that NM hard claimed not soft claimed 2 roles, because that “breadcrumming” was incredibly obvious to anyone even passively watching, and scum is actively watching.

[quiet]

If I were scum I would have cruised on my even night claim and set up an elimination on day 3

I addressed this yesterday. I don’t think you get away with it D3, at least nowhere near as easily. The D2 tracker claim was the most likely opportunity to drive a miselim. Do you disagree?

[quiet]

i'm just wondering why you're saying scum likely did, when literally nothing from Mini's ISO looks like a PR crumb to me.

Again, my original post was only in reference to NMs PR crumb. Not minis. I wasn’t including them in that post; there was no mini breadcrumb as far as I could tell.

But we can move on. Not satisfied with NMs responses. I hope someone smarter than me can pick out some stuff from day1, I’ll be quiet for a bit until more people pop in and give their two cents.

[quiet]

Bad play as VT is infinitely more acceptable than bad play as town PR.

Also he got murdered in like, a day. That’s on all of us for pushing so fast, but we were operating under the assumption that we are trading 1 town for 1 scum always.

If that’s not the case, that is entirely, 100% on you. That’s my take.

[quiet]

Why did NM wagon fail night 1?

Why did scum kill Mini/Math?

What’s up with Luca? Or is anyone else implicated in the Nero push (pre his lolcatting)

[quiet]

Sure.

VOTE: NotMafia

Agree with rainyCat that prod timers at minimum need to go before we end day.

[quiet]

Chkflp, Titus, anyone else who people have pinged about VCA stuff

Did you do the VCA stuff last night?

[quiet]

Overnight, chkflp has become a scumread for me. I’m traveling over the next few days, but I’m going to try to articulate why ASAP.

VOTE: chkflp

[quiet]

This pings.

My guy, I wanted to continue voting the scummy cheeky slot because I have NO clue how to read a player like NM. I stand by that take. How would you recommend me to sort NM at that point? Just hold the cheeky line and ignore them was my theory.

I was happy to just vote them off on the basis of cheeky’s scummyness.

[quiet]

The frustrating thing about how this went down is that some scum were 100% bussing NM. They knew for a fact that he gets flipped by the end of day3. Frankly, there’s a chance he gets flipped day2. The “I tracked Norfolk to Math” play is a trade.

So I’m not loving this analysis of how people interacted with the NM wagon as a way to determine townyness/scummyness. There’s probably stuff there, but it feels like NM caused enough chaos and has already dominated so much of this convo that I’m concerned about using it as gospel info. Seems easy enough for scum to jump into the thread RN and frame some people using interactions with a chaotic player.

It seems like the push on Nero is going to bear more fruit. I don’t know.

[quiet]

I also think Hayker is town.

Plus, if you don’t want to play, ask for a replacement? I...get really sad when people ask to die. Like if you’re not having fun, you aren’t in any way obligated to play. I don’t mean this to be confrontational at all, just

if there’s anything I can do to make this more approachable, or whatever, just let me know.

[quiet]

N_M was STRONGMAN.

And??

They would have died day1 without a claim.

The claim put a timer on them. They were dying by day3.

Scum knew this.

They HAVE to bus.

[quiet]

Do you think there is any universe ever where NM lives longer than day3?

I don’t.

So scum has to prepare for this exact moment. Frankly, I bet he used his power night1 or night2.

[quiet]

I stand by what I said about Hayker, Luca, and chkflip being the solve. Hayker was in hot water and those two bailed him out. Norfolk fits in the mix just fine, which implicates Binatog as a possible fifth.

This and some fights with Norwegian were the latest RainyCat reads I could find. Didn’t see any breadcrumbs, not that it would particularly matter as my understanding is that it’s a protective role and people died each night.

Though the Hayker thing probably no longer stands up, I am more than happy to ship either Luca or chkflp today.

[quiet]

YES. We moved off him after his PR claim. There was definitely a way for him to live longer and use his power at a strategic moment.

Chances are that the town has powers where the scum having a strongman may become handy.

Your right.

The way to keep NM alive would have been to successfully track or neighboruze or something and bus another scum night 3.

Then NM gets confirmed for days.

Instead, NM made a play day2 that is always a trade. So clearly, they didn’t choose that option, and had already pre-decided to bus him.

[quiet]

@quiet
What are your thoughts on this opinion of dead townie BC?

I don’t quite understand the question. The comment you pulled sorta highlights my point about townies getting pulled in by NM. If I recall correctly however, BC went back and forth on NM and eventually landed on scummy.

[quiet]

This is all you have to say about the game so far plus?

I'm a slow starter
my rvs is probably VOTE: titus, they always seem scummy to me for some reason. I even vigged them n1 last game.

You're next, this reads so awkward to me.

Hey look who else was shading PlusJOYED early

[quiet]

@Luca do you think Cheeky is bussing this early?

[quiet]

His posts are towny for me. Aside from that, that probably fits my read and actions. I'll post my gathered info if you want, but this might be beneficial to scum.

I'd be interested in hearing any of your reads or thoughts. I'm still struggling to sort you a little bit, and having more content would help.

[quiet]

That’s not bussing lol.
Early distancing is a very common scum tactic.

Fair enough. By that logic, Norwee should also be sus to you, as Cheeky shaded Norwee quite a bit. But like

if you look at a scum game, how often are their early reads distancing, and how often are they just fake reads on town? I would think that it's still more often fake reads on town then distancing with scum.

Not a lot to read from Cheeky though, and everything happened real close to RVS, so maybe it's pointless.

[quiet]

That's why I am asking some possible alignment from a role. I'll post my logs if you want. It might be too early, but it helps both teams I guess.

Unfortunately by asking the question, the cat seems to be out of the bag a little.

If you have non-mechanical reads, I'd love to hear them.

[quiet]

@Nero Cain
How willing would you be to tag team a wagon on Cheeky.
I think you're wrong about Mini.

Gamma (from a few posts after this) and Norwee did start the wagon on Cheeky, and Gamma especially pushed hard/well.

[quiet]

you're trying to control the game state, stating the obvious and trying to get all the town cred from pushing nm today even though it was the obvious choice. You're trying to make it like you would get town cred from the NM push today when in reality you shouldn't

I think Mom is town.

I also think this is a slight misrep of what Norwee has been doing. Just slight.

Norwee want's credit for pushing Cheeky back in day1. That was how I understood it.

And to be fair, he did. He @ed nero, and asked to start a Cheeky wagon, then followed up when Gamma jumped in to tag on his full support.

[quiet]

Also, Andre and Norwee have been sniping at each other from day1. When I popped back to do a cheeky/nm/norwee iso, I saw a good number of comments thrown Andre's way, and vica versa.

[quiet]

This is particularly at you Norway given how you really wanted this.

Tell me how to color it, and I can get it done in a day or two.

I'm trying to putting it in a sheet, but I'm not sure exactly how useful it will end up:

https://imgur.com/a/Pjq1joV

[quiet]

Using a google doc like that breaks communication rules. --- Mizzymod

[quiet]

DGB how did u get that quiet quote so quickly?

Eh, it seemed like they were just going through the thread point by point around the NM wagon. Everything they posted was from the same few pages, and frankly I could see how I look kinda bad, though at that point I was working under the assumption that post a claim, and given how much suspicion was on NM, we were just tabling the slot and moving on. I don't read them pulling that quote as AI.

I have already given my opinion that I think scum are bussing, knowing that NM will be trading day 2 or 3, and knowing how good of a frame this could be.

[quiet]

I don't know how many of you saw it but please don't use quiet's link if you got it. It counts as outside communication.

My bad!!

It was a google sheet list of vote counts at various times similar to the screenshot I posted. Wasn't thinking about outside communication. That's my own fault, sorry.

[quiet]

Analytics said no one viewed it. My fault. Sorry. Killed the link to make sure it can't be accessed.

[quiet]

These wagons are informative. I'm thinking there is one scum among Gamma, NorwEE and quiet. I have a townread on NorwEE, so that leaves me with Gamma & quiet.

One scum because bussing? Or for some other reason.

[quiet]

Vax, that’s in a string of posts where DGB is going through a large number of posts from like 950-1000, looking at who posted around the NM wagon to try to determine who derailed it. He pinged out a lot of people. I don’t think it was a response to me, just coincidence that he got to me then.

[quiet]

This is also informative in the sense that some previously CheekyTeeky-voting players switched to a player of currently unknown alignment, Hayker. In particular, the same triumvirate of quiet, Gamma Emerald, NorwegianboyEE.

Frankly I think we followed mostly the same logic.

Hayker was my strongest scumread day1. After NM claimed, my understanding was k, they’re going to sort themselves, maybe we come back around at the end of the day, but it’s time to move on for now. Some people wanted plusJoyad for being lurkey asf, I wanted Hayker.

[quiet]

What on earth is this absolute garbage tier shit posting.

vote:not_mafia

Absolute rubbish. This is considered allowed play?

Hayker’s iso is mostly NM shade.

You are saying this is distancing? All of it?

[quiet]

What on earth do you mean NM is not under any pressure. NM has been trolling around all day long yesterday, making up one bullcrap statement after another, with an obvious claim to simply get people off. I'm going to post a full list of my thoughts in a bit, but I know I will forget comments and things like this if I don't start quoting as I go. NM's ...what second claim? would have resolved tonight, and now they have switched their claim to tracker again? This sounds like complete bullocks


I really dislike how fast people are willing the end this day. This smells of gambit territory. I admit yesterday I was annoyed and frustrated by NM's posting. But cheeky was drawing a lot of ire from people before NM, and the more I read Nm the more I hear alarm bells of trolling scum.

Norfolk, if you are town, please just claim and don't be a cocky asshat. I understand mafia is a frustrating game at times, but don't look at Nero's actions yesterday as what to do when being voted.

This reads legit to me.

[quiet]

I’m open to being convinced of it, I thought they were scummy, but the NM flip and how they interacted with NM has me townleaning Hayker.

Hayker, I kinda need some content from you when you have the time. Some reads on other players. You are really hard to sort as is.

[quiet]

heybbmola
What are your thoughts on chkflp, Luca, and vax? Any or all.

[quiet]

Also @anyone, stealing a question from Gamma.

Are today’s posts within Luca’s scumrange? Do scum frame people using prev quotes like this with much frequency, or is this as towny as it’s starting to seem to me?

[quiet]

Pre NM replacement, Luca wants to sort the lurkey slots (this is a simplification, but it's the best category I can give)

Hayker. PlusJOYED. Cheeky.
I want to eliminate one of these slots as things stand.

Decides he wants plus more than Hayker (a read that future me agrees with, but past me did not)

I just realised that this is Hayker's first game in like 8 years, so perhaps they're a bit rusty/out of touch.

A quick meta search tells me PlusJOYED is capable of towntelling as Town, so I'm content with my vote there for now.

NM Wagon gets going seriously, and Luca hops on board at the very last moment. In the moment, and for a long while afterwards, what is about to happen next is called out as scummy:

Spoiler:

VOTE: Not_Mafia

E-1

.

VOTE: Plusjoyed
Actually I want to see something from this slot.

I want to discuss this more, because frankly I think a lot of people hopped off wanting to "breathe more life into the day", considering that NM would sort themselves. It is, unfortunately, a kinda towny idea, though obviously scum has a huge motivation to push it as NM was a strong power role for them. This still pings, and looks kinda bad, but I don't know if it is or if it just looks that way.

Despite jumping off the wagon for a bit, continues to discuss possibility of scum distancing from NM, seems to consider NM scummy.

Gamestate just declared not_mafia town. The fact hes at hammer distance this fast with no real cooperation between townies shows it.
Town are just voting bc of playstyle dislike and scum are piling on.

Sometimes this way of thinking is accurate, but it's been a weird slot since the beginning and I could easily see scum distancing themselves from it.

Gamestate just declared not_mafia town. The fact hes at hammer distance this fast with no real cooperation between townies shows it.
Town are just voting bc of playstyle dislike and scum are piling on.

Sometimes this way of thinking is accurate, but it's been a weird slot since the beginning and I could easily see scum distancing themselves from it.

And yet you were the first to flinch. Try again.

I don’t know what you mean.

Gamma is suspicious of this vote/unvote thing.

Unrelated, but good read:

I'm pretty good at reading Norwegian (I literally just caught him as scum in a Newbie) and I'm pretty sure he is Town this game.
Andres is obvtown. I think Bypasser is Town as well.

Now this is the Nero wagon. Another wagon that Luca has been widly sussed for. I'm not sure I understand why, and would like it if someone could walk me through it.

Spoiler:

The Nero wagon seems Ok but I feel like I’d much rather elim in PlusJOYED/Hayker today.

Consistent with previous reads.

We should direct Not_Mafia’s night action, right? We don’t want him targeting someone who is likely Town.
I suggest eliminating either PlusJOYED/Hayker and letting Not_Mafia target the other.

andres, even excluding me, can you agree with my townblock list? I wanna try approaching this game in a way that puts scum in a really shite situation of being PoE'd.

Gamma, yes. Binatog? I think so? They didn’t take me up on deep diving one player and just giving us their unfiltered thoughts, but the perspective seems Town. Luca? It depends. If Hayker flips Scum, definitely not.

They’re softly trying to move the wagon to plus without sticking their neck out too much.

I have them as Town but would reconsider with a Hayker Scum flip.

I've preferred pressure on PlusJOYED since 754, at which point Hayker wasn't even a wagon. Since then PlusJOYED has done literally nothing, so I don't get why you think my position on this is sketchy. I'm happy to elim either of these slots if Not_Mafia targets the other during the night.

Mind u nero has 5x the posts of PJ

Yes, PlusJOYED has done literally nothing. We have no information by which to sort him going forward. It initially seemed as though this might have just been due to being busy IRL, but then he said he's just waiting for an elim, so he is purposefully not doing anything. Looking at his meta, he seems inquisitive as town and loves posting detailed readlists etc.

Nero could well be scum, but his start was Ok and he might just be disinterested right now for other reasons for all we know. BBMolla is in a similar boat for me as well, but I think these slots will be easier to sort down the line.

I don't see plusJOYED's wagon gaining traction at this point and he seems set to lurk the day out, so might as well make this a straight choice between Nero/Hayker.

VOTE: Hayker

After this, when Nero had been doing his whole very scummy frustration posting thing, Luca jumped on board, and was CALLED OUT by Nero for jumping on him in a scummy way.

From my perspective, reading the ISO, it seems like Luca had been trying to drive plusJoyad/Lurkey slots all day1, is doing so again today, resisted the Nero wagon until it became utterly clear that it was going to happen/nero had been posting frustrated and lashing out for a few pages, still tried to shift off the Nero wagon onto Hayker which seemed more viable, drank the same koolaid most of us did with regards to the NM claims that they would sort themselves, and generally is less scummy for Day1 than the narrative I've been hearing up to this point (and had bought into). Their posts today made me question this read, and while there is still some strageness (the vote/unvote on NM looks bad no matter how you cut it, and he calls out distancing/could just be doing it), but...

I don't know.

Sorry for how messy this is, reading the iso is probably better than reading through these quotes, just wanted to put it down.

[quiet]

A few other key things I missed:
Obviously this has been talked about a lot.

Can we at least consolidate onto the PlusJOYED wagon to breathe some life back into this day? It feels atm like we're going through the motions and Not_Mafia's elim is inevitable.

And this was called scummy for trying to vote without taking responsibility.

I don’t really agree.
I think the slots are liabilities too, but even though they could be coasting scum, i’m much more sure about Nero being in his scum meta than Plusjoyed that’s unreadable and Hayker that’s just not here and i’m not familiar with.

Well I don't really have much experience playing with Nero, so I'm potentially willing to sheep your meta read. I really would like some content from PlusJOYED before this day is out, though.

@Norwegian, my point is at the bottom of my post.
Andres has been reading Luca scummy since day1. Gamma pushed at Luca a bit. You did, too, iirc, and I think someone else was willing to vote Luca today.
I have been TRing andres, gamma, and you since day1, and using you to inform my reads. Luca was in my scummy pile today. But their posts today seemed towny. So I went looking.

I now townread them, because I like their progression. I wanted to put that progression up for review, though, because there are some scummy things in it. I'm trying to sort Luca today, and pointless rambling is basically my only tool to do so, unfortunately.

The more interesting thing is how Luca was shaded so hard through day1 for resisting the Nero wagon, and then again later as someone scummy on the Nero wagon by Andres. I had the impression before I reviewed that Luca was scummy for day1, and now it seems like that could be a scummy narrative. Like I've had Andres as obvtown for days, but the number of reads I disagree with/pushes against other towny players is starting to add up in my head too. Maybe that's the point I'm coming to.

[quiet]

In post 2961, Luca Blight wrote:
Titus gets some Townie points for pointing out this angle-shooting stuff. It's interesting/strange how she never really follows up on it, though; she always prefers an elim on someone else and never really pushes for an elim on this slot.

Yeah i don't think it's very town indicative, seems to me they are putting suspicion on the slot in a way that doesn't really show a whole lot of reflection or thought behind it.
Could easily just be an distancing act.

This would be a really brutal distancing act, though. The angleshoot from my perspective was a very effective shade, it + what gamma said early about how all Cheeky had done was pop in and shade other people in a very scummy way was what sold me on the slot being scummy.

[quiet]

I can see a natural Townbloc emerging here:
Norwegian, DGB, Quiet, myself, maybe Gamma?

As for the townblock, Gamma is a stronger townread for me than most, beyond just me liking their play, for their early push on Cheeky.

VOTE: cheekyteeky

Sorry guys for the mass spam I don't have much time but that should be enough stirring until my return xx

This is a scum approach

@gamma cheeky could be scummy, but not with the info I have. If you have a better read I’m happy to hear it. Otherwise, it feels better to push there in a day or two from my perspective. I’m not discrediting the suspicion, just don’t like that wagon rn.
It’s my understanding that it’s good to push productive wagons, especially this early in the day? But maybe I’m missing something. Is cheeky your most scummy read?

Yeah she is, and you say Cheeky isn’t scummy rn, but the key elements of her play seems to be shading others and useless commentary. That’s not what I expect from Cheeky nor what I expect from town. And her post announcing her leaving is a sign that she’s meeting some nebulous quota of content and then buggering off. Scum do that so they are seen as giving content but also have more wanted from them, keeping themselves just beyond the threshold of being voted by seeming useful.

I mean, that push reads legit to me.

[quiet]

Lucas push on me is awful and I don’t know enough about how good they are to determine if it’s bad town or scum

I think you are luca's scumtype; his biggest scumreads in the early game were Cheeky (lurking), PlusJOYAD (super lurking), Hayker (also lurking).
There are some other reasons you look a lil bad, but I wouldn't be willing to push you today for them. It jives with what I know about your play. I don't find Luca's push particularly bad though. You're just his type.

Now chkflp, that I can get behind.

[quiet]

@mom
It's mostly a gut read. I've read through the iso three or four times, and there's nothing that jumps out as obviously scummy, a contradiction, or whatever.

What does jump out, though, is that they havn't offered anything that's help solve the game, just followed along with other peoples reads, pushed back on some people, defended some others, but generally gone with the flow. They also started out the day posting tons, high energy, lots of thoughts....and by now, that's trickled off to just a few posts. Also, this is maybe petty, but I was really thinking that either Titus or chkflp would have the VCA after the night was done; it was started the day before.

It's also a direction that we havn't looked at very hard. By putting that read out, I'm hoping to see where other people fall on chkflp.

If there's some strong counterexamples to this, I'd be happy to see them. I know I'm reading chkflp based on what isn't there vs. what is, and that's probably a bit messy. It was a hunch of mine overnight that I couldn't seem to shake, so I've been stareing at it trying to figure out where it's coming from.

[quiet]

Is Bina up for discussion today? Or can we table that.

[quiet]

The only alternate theroy to SvS that I can give is that Bypasser kept soft claiming/baiting a PR, and Ranny actually was a PR.
They also killed Mini/Math day1, which was a PR. No idea how they knew that, but I'm getting informed vibes. Scum seems to be PR hunting pretty hard to me.

[quiet]

No results from the Chkflp pressure, so I’m moving on for now. They woke up today, it seems, and I’m decently liking what I see. Can revisit later maybe.

Is there anyone besides Hayker/PlusJOY that is on the table for elimination today rn? I don't scumread BBMola, but they also seem on the table.

[quiet]

Both NKs after Math have been on Hayker. Why pick off the very people reading the game wrong? They would have to know they are PRs. So either scum knew they were PRs or we had S v S wagons.

You literally said this, sorry, don't know how I missed it.
How likely do you think it is that scum knew?

[quiet]

Quiet, do you think either Hayker or Plusjoyed could be scum?

Yes. I thought Hayker was scum day1, wanted them after we moved on from NM. I thought their interactions/thoughts on NM sounded legit, however. Read their short iso, it made me question my read. I currently feel not super happy about voting Hayker, but could be convinced.

As a result, I'd prefer to vote plusJOYAD between the two options. plus could easily be scum here. But also...
uh

the only comment they've made in almost a real life week was "please kill me" which is either depressing as fuck or a naked prod dodge so they can hang around for a day or two longer, and I'm not sure their flip really provides us all that much information at the end of the day. I don't know how to read low content slots.

[quiet]

The problem is my reason for thinking they're scum basically comes down to "they don't post hardly at all" and "people that flipped green voted them because they were hardly posting at all" and "the people who barely posted at all barely made it onto the wagons before the day ended" which just feels bad.

[quiet]

What's your Gamma read?

Gamma led push on Cheeky pre NM replacement in a pretty intense way that I do not see as distancing or bussing, generally has posted reads I’ve liked, they are currently in my top town. I posted some quotes supporting this take earlier today.

[quiet]

In post 2967, Luca Blight wrote:
In post 2769, PlusJOYED wrote:
please let me die


I thought you were waiting for an Elim? There's been 3 already, as well as 3 NK's.

If you don't want to play then replace-out.



100% this. We have already had a suicidal townie this game, please don't be another. If you are that frustrated with the game, rather then devastate it for everyone please do the responsible thing and place out. This is a bit of a town tell, based on personal experience. Some of which played out in this game.

Hi Hayker!
What are we supposed to do about you and Plus? How can I sort you today? Your past words towards NM have given me some hope that you aren’t scummy, but there just isn’t...a lot to help me sort you otherwise.

You seem to be slightly against a plusJOY elim if you think this is a town tell. Who do you think we should elim today and why?

[quiet]

Are you actually trying to say that I'm scum because I just stated that I'm fucking V/LA, quiet?

Mom I haven’t called you scum today.

Or really any day?

I was talking about about Plus and Hayker. Where did I call you scummy?

[quiet]

Also please tell me when the fuck did I sheep people, and just "went with flow"

This is my chkflp read.

That was about chkflp.
I’m sorry I’m really fucking lost I do not think I’ve attacked you at all. I’m really sorry if something I did got fucked up. My fault.

[quiet]

@Binatog
Can you please clarify your claim.

Can we get a couple voices to chime in on if we think this is a good idea?

If Bino has a role that gives him info on visits, then we’re starting to get into territory where we need to solve the game or we might be putting remaining PRs at risk. Alternatively, if Bino is indeed a PR, there’s now a good chance they die tonight as they’re for sure outed.

I don’t know what the right play here is.

[quiet]

What I mean is that they might die tonight, so maybe we need the info.

[quiet]

Okay, I’m not going to take those posts to heart. I think it’s better if I just don’t respond. I’m doing the best I can, I don’t mean to attack anyone ever, and Momrangal, I have not posted about you or put a read forward about you today, other then maybe asking BBMola to weigh in on your slot as a way to get some info to try to sort him, so please don’t take anything I’ve said as a slight towards you.

If there is something you think I should be doing better, if I did offend some other place, please tell me and I’ll fix it. I’ll stop abbreviating your name, which is the only thing I can think of that might be a slight.

[quiet]

It's not like that. It's like [Player] was visited by this role. Get it?

This is the claimed role.
Yeah okay this seems safe to post the logs of, I’ll throw in my support. Bino, let’s see what roles have been visiting whom.

[quiet]

I will note that this role is substantively different from the Watcher role, which says WHO visited. This says the ROLE of the person that visited. Honestly I buy them being in the same setup.

[quiet]

You’re right. That’s the same role.
Huh.

[quiet]

Town watcher, a second town watcher, a town protect, a town lazy RB....

We think the fifth? (Do we even get five?) PR for town is another investigative? Gut feel, especially given the very neat murders of some town PRs, it’s a mafia role. I’m pretty inclined to clear Momrangal here, and Bino too.

Someone tell me if this is trash logic, but I’m very down for town to claim Rolecop here, as I don’t find it very likely to happen.

[quiet]

Makes me think quiet might be scum given similar rationale was used on Nero why not try it again?

Titus to clarify I did not make any reads on Momrangal today, my read was towards chkflp, and they took it as though it was on them. I really really want to make that super clear.

[quiet]

I’m just still very confused by Momrangel’s take, and now doubly confused that Titus is referencing it, given that it seemed to come out of a misapprehension.
I’ll just leave it.

And yes shovels mmm very exciting.

[quiet]

Much more valid, ty. Sorry. Can’t argue that point, that’s basically what it is.

I still note that your play is noticeably different today than on previous days (most especially late day1, day2, day3- your current style is pretty close to early day1). Maybe it’s not AI, maybe it was related to your level of interest in what was basically 2 days of dealing with NM’s trade.

[quiet]

Andres, did none of Luca’s posts today look towny to you?

[quiet]

Same to BB I guess

[quiet]

I did make an argument earlier today. I went through their iso, noted things that looked bad, noted things that looked good, and noted that I thought what they posted today looked actually pretty good to me. I’m asking if you’ve considered it because you gave basically the same read directly before NM came out with their claim and day2 got turned into a trade.

I’ll quote it here if you want, I’m on mobile so it’s kind of trash. I was just asking if you’d reconsidered your read on Luca at all today.

[quiet]

I am only interested in executing in {quiet, Luca Blight, Bypasser} today.

@Gamma thoughts?

My mistake, this was your day2 read.

[quiet]

Post 3010 and 3014 are my takes on Luca, and why I asked this question of you.

[quiet]

I read you towny Andres, I just keep disagreeing with you. Idk. Maybe I’m wrong on Luca. Just check out today, and my mess of a post that dives them (mostly pulled from day1), and if you still think Luca is the one, then maybe I need to reconsider.

I recognize that you read me as scummy so maybe this is wasted breath.

@mod I’ll be V/LA starting tmmrw morning for 24-48 hours; traveling.

[quiet]

Quick note to Momrangal (an apology for my side)

Spoiler:

@mom

Again, I apologise for my reaction for this entire wall. I don't remember even asking for your opinion on (chk?) Though. What prompted this?

Now chkflp, that I can get behind.

Let's hear that case then.

Oh god, it was all my fault after all. I'm sorry. For some reason, I thought Momrangel asked me for the case on chkflp, the names got flipped in my head somehow, so I @ted you to answer what thought was your question. Made that post seem targeted at you.

No more posting off my phone. Christ. Sorry for the confusion, and no worries on my end, that read would have felt really shitty applied to you. I should have taken more care. There! Now back to the game

Otherwise checking in, been reading but still V/LA until the end of the day about.
My world atm:
Town asf
{Mom, Bino, Gamma (for Cheeky push, it would have killed them if not for replace/claim antics)}
Town with high frequency
{DGB, Norwegian, Andres}
Very speculative town reads:
{Luca, Hayker}
Scum with some frequency:
{BBmola, chkflp}
Scum often:
{Vax, Titus, PlusJOY}

Here’s my (bad) hot take:
PlusJOY flip gives us only the mechanical info about the counterwagon to NM, which has already dominated most of our discussion. It enables shading on lots of what could easily be towny players. It is an easy bus today for scum, making seeing who pushed them not even that helpful. It could also be, with some frequency, flipping town, and I think that’s just as likely to frame someone inno as someone guilty, but admittedly VCA sounds like witchcraft to me mostly.

BBmola is...I find myself in Mom’s camp. Day4 policy elim feels bad, and what does BB flip tell us? Heybbmola please help me sort you because there just isn’t a ton to go on, and I know this is kinda your vibe, but I need stuff to go on.

So uh, what if we pushed Vax or (dare I say it, this feels sacrilegious) Titus today. Maybe this is dumb asf and I know we have to sort Plus/BB somehow, but

Is anyone hugely resistant to a Vax elim today? I have this weird feeling that Vax is a good candidate for most solves.

And vax I’m happy for you to tell me why I’m being an idiot here.

[quiet]

I think it’s generally that Vac has been posting enough to not really get lumped in with the lurkers, but none of the gamesolving/high visibility interactions have centered around or involved you. I’m open to being shown that I’m mechanically wrong or that there’s a few townTells in there I missed, and I think Momrangal read Vax as town, so if they have a tell or some posts they can point me towards I can rethink.

@DGB Eh preferably before we theoretically have 3 days of info to go off of, but the reality is we burned at least 1 day of info with the NM antics, so maybe it’s not too late. I think I’d like to see at least a push vs someone that isn’t Plus or BB today. I’m not sure how crazy I am about those two being competing wagons, but maybe I’m just overthinking shit and I’m pushing to spare scummy slots. Idk.

[quiet]

Hey Hayker! How do you read Titus?

Going to keep asking you questions every now and again when I see you on if that’s okay, it helps me feel good about my read on you.

[quiet]

I don't know why you think BBMolla is a policy yeet. He was already scummy before all his AtE antics.

And a BBMolla elim tells us a lot. He makes sense as a partner to all the suspect slots in the game.

I guess I don’t know if I’m fully on board with how scummy the slot is, given the (sigh) meta of BB. This feels within his bored town range.

The second bit, and the bit about the two wagons, I wanted to try to set up the various worlds for plus vs BB but it kinda broke my brain a bit, until I realized that I liked Vax as scum for either plus scum or bb scum.

But if generally people I like like the two existing wagons, then I’ll try to figure out which I like better. As things stand, I find PlusJOY scummier then BB, but I like the people on BB more. I think that’s the current state of the world.

[quiet]

But if generally people I like like the two existing wagons, then I’ll try to figure out which I like better. As things stand, I find PlusJOY scummier then BB, but I like the people on BB more. I think that’s the current state of the world.

quiet, what do you think of the fact that the players you think are town are voting BBMolla while the players you think are scum are voting plusJOYED?

Yeah same thought. I don’t love that fact. Also, BB had been calling me town/saying that I’m a scummy player so am prob town for most of the game, and generally being nice to me. We played together in my first newbie game, so I’m predisposed to liking them/am an easy pocket. That being said, having played with them and metadived them for that previous game, I give them more credit than some people here have been.

I think Mom is in a similar position, and she’s confirmed in my head. Previous experience with BB making her question the scummyness.

[quiet]

In post 3490, quiet wrote:
Is anyone hugely resistant to a Vax elim today? I have this weird feeling that Vax is a good candidate for most solves.
I'd really like to hear why you think this.

People not in my strong town bucket:
Speculative town
{Luca, Hayker}
Scum with some frequency:
{BBmola, chkflp}
Scum often:
{Vax, Titus, PlusJOY}

I really think the solve is within this group I'm operating under the assumption that there are 3 left, and that most of the time, they're in the bottom 5. I think Hayker/Luca only end up scum in a few scenerios (for example, if Titus got confirmed town, I'd be a lot more willing to search for a LucaScum world).

So what worlds make sense from these 5: {BBmola, chkflp, Vax, Titus, PlusJOY}

This is where my brain kinda broke. I'm not sure how good I am at this kind of analysis, it really felt like there were sort of two sides/narratives emerging today (around the if plusJoy town then Luca scum shade by Titus, and around the BBMola push). Though the votes were on BB and Plus, it almost felt like the narrative was sort Luca vs. Titus.

I really wanted to actually define what these worlds might look like, but I just...can't seem to get them down in a way that makes sense to me. What I did note was that Vax fits in as a quieter, don't rock the boat scumpartner to either side. I also have in my notes that Vax has soft pinged me a couple of times, but I'd probably need to be on a laptop to track down receipts for that, and I'm still traveling today.

I feel like I'm making a poor point badly, so I'll try to summarize where I'm at after writing up this post.

Today feels like the first time scum has to push a narrative strongly (except for maybe on Nero), given how capably NM derailed everything. There are narratives emerging today about Plus, BBmola, but also Luca, Titus, and people associated. We also got some basically mechanical clears. So it feels like we should be able to figure out which people are pushing what, and identify scum there/or even find people that make sense in either scenerio, but I'm just not good enough to do it, and it looks like I might have to recend my Vax suspicion as this post isn't even convincing myself.

Like, unless we are to believe this is a SvS wagon, then scum is pushing one way or the other to some end. I don't love it, don't know how to read it, and if sorting Vax isn't attractive, then maybe pushing Titus is. Plus and BB are both low hanging fruit to some degree, and while they could def just be scum here, I'm concerned.

[quiet]

Still reading through your post, but wanted to correct this: Titus said that plusJOYED Town means Andres is scum. Momrangal said if PlusJOYED is scum then I'm scum.

ty for the correction here. I prob should have waited to post till I was off V/LA.

This is sort of my point here. Mom's narrative is clean as she's town, but there are narratives starting to pop up for future days, and scum will either be making some or pushing some. Titus pushing a narrative is an obvious example (maybe too obvious, I think Titus is also a high frequency frame in worlds where she isn't scum), but I think theres something to discover here, I just can't articulate it. I'll probably drop this for now unless it does something useful for someone else.

A game I referenced to see how BB played in a big game (in this case, as town)
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=82769

My Newbie game, where they play somewhat different to this, but still close-ish to where I disregarded any of the people sussed by the miller fakeclaim
viewtopic.php?t=85321&f=11&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go
In this game, they were bored/annoyed with people pushing them/just decided to make a play hoping a doc would save them that they softed a role night1 and got promptly murdered for it.

This was a scum game I referenced too
viewtopic.php?t=77611&f=54&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

But there's plenty to look through, BB plays a lot.

[quiet]

BB, I think what I want from you is takes on wagons that don’t involve you.

I’m still open to hearing your take on Norwegian, or how the wagon has developed or whatever else, but I’d be curious, for example, if you think Gamma is town for their push on cheeky/their play this game more generally, your current stance on Titus/chkflp, any reads you’ve formed from interactions with the Nero wagon, the rest of the game. Otherwise it kinda just feels like you’re slamming people who voted you, which has some use if you get flipped, but isn’t really a case against flipping you. And I prefer to flip scum, so if I can feel more certain about reading you, then PlusJOY or my stupid Titus/Vax push becomes more viable.

[quiet]

That’s it for me, I’ve got to get back on the road.

[quiet]

GGs everyone! My first game where I felt like I contributed whatsoever, even if it was for all the wrong reasons.

Andres, Luca, good job getting there in the end. Norwegian, super impressive stuff. I really enjoyed this game, so thanks to everyone for having me! And bino mvp

[quiet]

Also, the scum team ran us into the ground till nearly the end there. Really impressive stuff from them, too. PoE is hard is one of my takeaways from this game.