large normal 243: lindOVER

[Flavor Leaf]

i think i wanna move Gimli up on my list a step.

It's possible our little quad we got going here is all town.

[Flavor Leaf]

Not ready to move off Hu Tao, though, I keep going back and forth. Wanna see a dueling wagon with Venmar and Hu Tao, though.

[Flavor Leaf]

Not ready to move off Hu Tao, though, I keep going back and forth. Wanna see a dueling wagon with Venmar and Hu Tao, though.

The fact that you can put me in the same wagon right now as venmar is the reason people don't town read you

Pretty sure most of this game town reads me, bud.

Even you and Gimli are pushing me as more likely town, so idk who you're talking about besides like Andante and the occasional Skygazer.

[Flavor Leaf]

viewtopic.php?p=13136271#p13136271

Also because I think it's funny, and I'm looking into Andante scum game right now.

Andante said the same thing this game calling me out for contradicting claim talk.

They were scum, and I was town giving them heat.

[Flavor Leaf]

OMFG. So I'm playing on my April Ludgate account in this game, right, I'm town, Andante scum.

viewtopic.php?p=13143317#p13143317

Andante is saying in that game "April did a lot where I was like, they are not town... basically went "limming the vt is our best option" along with "no one can claim, yet we can mass claim tomorrow"

Literally the exact same shit happening.


This entire game I'm looking at Andante and it's like the same exact game happening. LOL

[Flavor Leaf]

viewtopic.php?p=13145880#p13145880

AndanteScum saying I was setting elims up for the future here as well.

[Flavor Leaf]

Andante also bussed their scum partner there, and then killed me off in the Night.

And then NorwegianBoy says something like "This is the first game i've been able to identify TownFlavor. His town game is pretty scummy tbh", so right on queue with my town meta feeling kinda scummy to people.



viewtopic.php?p=13145884#p13145884 - this link is Andante, while bussing a scum partner in the other game, they said they're no longer feeling good about fading...and then at the end they put an 'aaaaaahh'

here at the end of Day 1, they did this.

I'm just a little scared on how that seemed so easy.. yet the wagon against me for 3 days was such a struggle for yall

like.. we finally agree on a wagon!!! but.. why kitty over all the other wagons we've tried.. ahhh I scared...

[Flavor Leaf]

@Gimli - Can you please look at that game, mainly Andante-April Ludgate dynamic there compared to here.

It's like the exact same thing. I had caught AndanteScum before, and that's why I felt it so much earlier.

You also just watched most of that Demon Slayer game, right? You saw how I was scum reading Grandpa and then something happened because of the way we interacted, and I started to town read Grandpa heavily? When I start to scum read scum, scum will come after me for a minute, then find out me town reading them is better, but when it fades, they'll attack again.

This IN CONJUNCTION with the case I presented yesterday, and the fact that it's obvious scum did not want Andante faded yesterday, and wasn't helping the wagon, I do believe there is a strong case to be made for Andante scum.

Honestly, the exact same meta cases happening yet again and the similarities between this game and that game are astonishing.

[Flavor Leaf]

fish in the sea is definitely one of my best game in general on this site but that’s actually funny the same claims argument happened

And by Andante's own statement, one of their best scum games on site.

This gives merit to the fact that since it worked there, that's what a successful scum game feels like to them.

Andante is a freakin' MASTER manipulator. The Hot and Cold Attitudes depending on where they need to attack is exactly how they play as scum.

Gimli, you have been pocketed by a Master Manipulator.

Truly mean that Andante, you're killing it. You're just scum here.

[Flavor Leaf]

Here's the thing with the meta.

That's the only one with youScum and meTown in it, and meTown can see youScum.

I'd like to see some town games more than more scum games, do you have a few?

[Flavor Leaf]

Do you have any other scum games besides Fish and the sea where you bussed?

Unfortunately, those scum games you linked are super short because it's a Newbie and a Micro.


I feel kinda bad for it, but I think I got you with a pretty strong case here.

[Flavor Leaf]

but yeah FL, this is exhausting

I understand. =/

For what it's worth, I do think you have a good scum game and are an excellent manipulator. But it takes one to know one

Thing is, you're currently voting me, and were stating a couple pages ago for my elimination specifically after my town read on you had dissipated. That is a pure Hot and Cold attitude. Reward me for town reading you, punish me for scum reading you, and is an extremely powerful scum tool. That's how I caught Catboi, another known excellent manipulator, last year.


So in the past page or so you went from seeing me as scum and pushing me, to this extreme defeatist attitude, which I believe is another tactic, and one that's worked for you before.

VOTE: Andante

But nonetheless, you are scum here.

[Flavor Leaf]

the one was a town game…
ok cool then vote me out if I’m conf town, we’re dealing with this today not dragging it out, like you just said a page ago if it’s me you someone else in 3 way you vote them, but it’s not like my meta has changed in 5 minutes

No, but I went into a deep dive after that.

And Gimli and Enchant just saw me recently with a game that ended go from hard pushing ScumGrandpa as scum, to them being my strongest town read, and then back. And that's also insanely similar here and it's been showing me that my gut is strong here.

I don't think you're as out of this as you think, though. You have the scum advantage in this 1v1 with me, you could win it.

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: Andante

But nonetheless, you are scum here.

Besties

A fake bestie....

Sadly, I think you and I both know you were the fake bestie....

[Flavor Leaf]

Idk if andante wanted to survive as mafia...

Just.
Claim.
PR.

Why bus lol.

Kowabungha made a good case about it a few pages back.

At the end of the day, Andante did the 'aahhhh I'm scared' routine too.

This is something they did in that other game too, Fish in the Sea, on a scum wagon you lead.

[Flavor Leaf]

I have no reason to go after a VT who was okay working with me as scum here, especially after you talked about that Hu Tao thing.

And you already are voting me, Andante.

[Flavor Leaf]

@Enchant - these links are from Fish and the Sea where I was pushing ScumAndante on April account. It's like literally the exact same tactics they used in that game against me.

viewtopic.php?p=13145880#p13145880

AndanteScum saying I was setting elims up for the future here as well.

Andante also bussed their scum partner there, and then killed me off in the Night.

And then NorwegianBoy says something like "This is the first game i've been able to identify TownFlavor. His town game is pretty scummy tbh", so right on queue with my town meta feeling kinda scummy to people.



viewtopic.php?p=13145884#p13145884 - this link is Andante, while bussing a scum partner in the other game, they said they're no longer feeling good about fading...and then at the end they put an 'aaaaaahh'

here at the end of Day 1, they did this.

I'm just a little scared on how that seemed so easy.. yet the wagon against me for 3 days was such a struggle for yall

like.. we finally agree on a wagon!!! but.. why kitty over all the other wagons we've tried.. ahhh I scared...

[Flavor Leaf]

For what it's worth, Andante also claimed VT in that game.

[Flavor Leaf]

viewtopic.php?p=13127930#p13127930 - also this is a player there saying about Andante 'Andante is town, cmon', in a way they think Andante should be obv town.


viewtopic.php?p=13126425#p13126425 - here they do the same 'struggling to get a read' shtick, which can be both alignments, sure, but it shows they will do it as scum. They also do the 'so i flip green, then what' 'i'm not scum' shtick.



viewtopic.php?p=13135799#p13135799 - 'I don't wanna vote out town, so I'll sacrifice myself!' shtick


viewtopic.php?p=13143340#p13143340 - 'whatever, doggo is town' shtick


These are meant to be the little sprinkles on the Sundae, not the main course, of course, but it's like super damning.

[Flavor Leaf]

these links are from Fish and the Sea where I was pushing ScumAndante on April account. It's like literally the exact same tactics they used in that game against me.

have you ever thought I'm good at mirroring my town game as scum? Like I will not deny, I have had AMAZING scum games. One, I was dead conf scum (no reveals, I was conf from investigate) and almost everyone still believed I was town. so this entire meta argument is a waste of time, like, just ignore me we'll catch scum, and then game ends way before endgame. it's really not that hard

I think you're probably great at mirroring your town games. You're mirroring it here. It's the tactics side of things, along with the unexpected similarities to the game where we had townMe/scumYou with similar interactions.

[Flavor Leaf]

i feel like a lot of these are Andante tells not scum tells but i could be wrong

A lot of those, this is okay, and probably is true.

But it does stop these reasons from being reasons to town read Andante specifically.

[Flavor Leaf]

i feel like a lot of these are Andante tells not scum tells but i could be wrong

me having fun... me being happy... ahhh throwback to d1 this game where FL told me I need to change my playstyle, cause my playstyle/personality is ~garbage~ (according to FL)

sorry FL, never changing, I'm having fun!!!

I don't remember saying this to you. I said something like this to Enchant.

You've already proven me wrong about it IF I did say that to you, but I don't think I did.

[Flavor Leaf]

I also think Enchant's very good, though, and one of my favorite scum partners.

[Flavor Leaf]

i dunno if i feel like it i'll try to look more into the andante case but i'm not sure i'm interested atm

That's okay. I don't truly expect to win the argument here.

But I do believe it's an incredibly strong case on top of what I did on Day 1 to case.

I'm going to be more passive about it this day phase, and if I die before Andante, whether by fade or in the night, just want it to be remembered.

It's probably the path I'm sticking with for the day, though.

[Flavor Leaf]

i think it's likely all three are town, andante

ah shit... like... if it's 3 town TUNNELED onto me, this is just gonna be hell... like I WANT to find scum I do, but obviously these garbage reads on me aren't gonna help me be able to read so I'm genuinely only going to be useless or help scum here, so there's no point in keeping me around...

Hard Minimizing the cases on you. =/

[Flavor Leaf]

Andante also bussed their scum partner there, and then killed me off in the Night.

And then NorwegianBoy says something like "This is the first game i've been able to identify TownFlavor. His town game is pretty scummy tbh", so right on queue with my town meta feeling kinda scummy to people.



viewtopic.php?p=13145884#p13145884 - this link is Andante, while bussing a scum partner in the other game, they said they're no longer feeling good about fading...and then at the end they put an 'aaaaaahh'

here at the end of Day 1, they did this.

I'm just a little scared on how that seemed so easy.. yet the wagon against me for 3 days was such a struggle for yall

like.. we finally agree on a wagon!!! but.. why kitty over all the other wagons we've tried.. ahhh I scared...

I do personally believe this one is one of the stronger reasonings.

And like I said to STD, me making those personality cases and pointing out that they are done as scum as well, nullifies them from being town read.

they're the sprinkles.

[Flavor Leaf]

FL tbh I'm not interested in andante slot today. I think I'd have to read a lot and I'm just fine not having andante in my solve rn. it's d2 with one dead wolf, I say we kill the people not playing/lurkey slots posting scummy stuff first. I think andante should be considered way way way down the line. but I'll come back to this and read through eventually I guess.

that's okay. I won't stop you from making your posts and pushes elsewhere by any means. I feel I've been very good about working with you pushing Venmar, someone that Andante was hesitant to vote, by the way.

I got them, though. You got warlocked by them, whether by their intention or not, but I'm sure post game we'll see in their scum PT that it was intentional, at least once they saw the opening.

[Flavor Leaf]

me making those personality cases and pointing out that they are done as scum as well, nullifies them from being town read.

I highly doubt, if I said any of those lines this game, they'd be the single reason someone TRs me...

also... personality cases are garbage, can we not do those? I will be andante regardless of alignment.

Some of them are slight personality cases, but it's not the one single thing that makes you scum, it's specifically the combination of them, and the tactics that you use as scum.

Thinking about it and looking at em again, they're not even really personality, but people defending you are saying that for some reason when they're clearly Tactics.

Even if you use some of the Tactics as town, they're clearly tactics imo. And the combination of the tactics is more in-line with your scum game.

[Flavor Leaf]

I also feel like you haven't been caught for these reasonings before, meaning that they would definitely slip by with you using these tactics in conjunction with mirroring your town game.

[Flavor Leaf]

You’re implying I really think about “tactics” like bruh… I just say whatever

tactics can be instinctual.

[Flavor Leaf]

Hu tao might be an option for me today… I feel like Hu only put me that low because they think people might go back to voting me…

@Gimli - thoughts ^

gimli, why are you certain malcolm and eita are town??
could it be… TMI?

[Flavor Leaf]

GIF
Malcolm
Skygazer
NJAC

Andante
Venmar
Eiralox


I think all the remaining scum are in these 2 groups. The top group I town read, but I don't think I'm 100% correct with all of them. I couldn't tell you which one, though. Malcolm called Andante v FL TvT real early on, which can be kind of scummy, but I tunneled Town Malcolm for that exact thing a while back. Skygazer counterwagon to Andante would be super weird wagonomically if Skygazer was scum. I liked NJAC's jump on the Kitty wagon more than some others, and the Venmar gut read is fine. GIF, well, I just kinda was mind melding with GIF on Day 1, but they went on VLA.

eiralax is dead null for me. And I'm starting to see a Venmar/Andante scum team world.

[Flavor Leaf]

Also, Andante is playing like Defeatist scum right now.

Klickwork played like this on Day 4 for a little bit in Demon Slayer, if you read that part, but changed once pressure went away.

[Flavor Leaf]

I just don't really see CKD as being scum here at all right now

[Flavor Leaf]

damn, ISO dived Venmar.

Idk, I like them. Do your thing, though.

What's the case on Venmar specifically?

[Flavor Leaf]

what is defeatist?

'o woe is me im town and everyone wants to kill me, might as well sacrifice myself'

[Flavor Leaf]

what is defeatist?

'o woe is me im town and everyone wants to kill me, might as well sacrifice myself'

oh yeah, kept typing out a self vote lol it’s just annoying how it’s just constant “oh you’re caught scum!!!” like, I’m not scum… and this is just reaching a point it’s annoying me IRL

and like, Hu putting me as low as they did, when they’ve been talking to me like I’m town seems odd to me, but one yall was like “see she’s pushing everyone!!” so what, I’m supposed to do nothjng and prod dodge, then I’m town???

why is one vote, one person saying this to you annoying you?

[Flavor Leaf]

Gimli going off vibes makes a lot of sense for a TownGimli case, though.

Weakness of that playstyle is people who can manipulate emotion well can get through it.

[Flavor Leaf]

I get hard pocketed too

[Flavor Leaf]

Here's some meta reasonings, but the case, at its core, isn't meta based. I would say it's Tactics and Objectively based that is further supported with some clear cut meta from an exact situation with TownMe going after ScumThem.

viewtopic.php?p=13221408#p13221408 - andante had a 'never claiming' mindset here in there town game.

in their scum game with me previously, and this game, they acted like PR, but claimed VT in both.

Said I was setting up flips in both scum games, didn't in their town game.

Had a 'scared aaah' reaction at the end of a scum flip. They bussed in the other one, i think they bussed here.
____

Now the base of my scum read comes from the next stuff, and I'll use a town example of theirs in comparison, but really the case works without it too.

They've been minimizing and misrepping cases on them all game here. That is inherently scummy. while here they were able to completely write out and explain in detail what someone was pushing them for as town.

On top of that, my day 1 case of them puffing chest because they knew there wasn't a case on them in addition to the ^.

And their incredibly stalled wagoning proving scum really didn't want the Andante wagon to go through while the Skygazer wagon was E-3 at one point, and had it gotten another vote, quick hammer range. This is probably the strongest base reason for scum Andante. While this alone wouldn't make them scum, this in conjunction with all of the others things probably does.

The Hot and Cold Treatment Rewarding Players when they town read them, and Punishing Players when they don't. I slightly slightly slighty turned off of them thanks to Kowahbunga's case on Andante, and they immediately flipped on me. After I started casing them, they immediately retracted.

There are tons and tons of different emotional tactics being used by Andante this game, such as the defeatist technique, the hyper post, and the all over the place. Sure, you can cut this back as personality, but there is no denying that these are both survivalistic tactics. Again, this is in conjunction with other things in the game, not this one singular thing.
_______

Now let's check out Kowabungha's case.

Kowabungha's Case is a strong singular point for them being scum in the fact that they are being incredibly inconsistent with their reads, and this implies that they are going with the flow and adapting when they need to. The biggest thing here is when Kowa says 'Why are you willing to vote out someone who is being scum read by your biggest scum read?" This might not be anything major at first glance, but when you combine this with Andante repeatedly saying this game they don't want to elim townies, it shows Andante as being incredibly performative here.

Kowa made an amazing reasoning pointing out Gimli telling Andante to come back to Kitty wagon after Andante tried one last ditch effort to get the momentum to move from Kitty to Malcolm.

Kowa also pointed out that Andante made a list of people they would be okay eliminating, and they put a large list with Kitty on it. We went Kitty. They couldn't back out of it because they already put them in the pool.

Kowa says they scum read Andante in a previous game and let them get away. This means both Kowa and Myself have previous experience with ScumAndante, and scum read them correctly at points.


And what is Andante's immediate response to this?

"The hell is this case?" An immediate shut down to a strong case. Even if Andante were town, this made sense as a case, it could have just been wrong. But instead it got shut down and pushed out with a "I explained Malcolm read yesterday". I didn't double check, but yeah.

They then go on and hard aggressively push me for 'setting up flips on them' when I talk about how I liked Kowabungha's case, and how it brought Andante down slightly. This lead me to wanting to deep dive because of the big overreaction. I was still lean town on Andante at that point.

Andante used the push on me to distract from Kowabungha's case and drown it out, causing it to be hidden.

Did anyone besides Gimli and I see the Kowabungha case? did anyone read Kowabungha's case?

Check the case out. It's a really good case imo.

But yeah, long story short, one of these things happening don't make Andante scum. All of these things together makes her scum.

[Flavor Leaf]

I should have formatted that better. I will later, but first section is the meta sprinkles. 2nd section is the base. 3rd section is Kowabungha's case

[Flavor Leaf]

Another thing is Andante has been pushing Kowabungah as scum for a while, and according to Kowa in their case post, they've been seeing Andante as scum for a while. They were also the first one on that vote count with Andante having a large wagon.

I will say, I wasn't super aware of Kowabungah's read on Andante being strong. Scum are more aware of how players are feeling about them. This isn't a super strong reasoning, but I think there's some merit to Andante being threatened by Kowabungah, so they've been pushing them and yelling at them being scum for a long time now to drown them out.

[Flavor Leaf]

Honestly, Kowabungha brought the gallons of Ice Cream, they made it homemade, and it's delicious. I just have the toppings, the bowl, and will be serving you all your Sundaes, but I already had that stuff.

Andante flips scum, Kowabungha caught them nicely.

[Flavor Leaf]

And I'll take the heat if they flip town.

[Flavor Leaf]

Kowah's case on Andante is pretty compelling, but I think it boils down to Andante just being all over the place. That's a big reason why the wagon her got going -- she had a finger in absolutely every pie and demonstrated basically no conviction throughout the day. So, in isolation, scummy.

But I can't square that with Andante being so early on the Kitty wagon. There's a chance that wagon doesn't get off the ground without Andante jumping on it, but maybe Andante was acting out of pure self-preservation and, like FL pointed out, were kind of hoisted by her own petard for throwing suspicion everywhere willy-nill.

I still think we're more likely to find scum bussing at the tail end of that wagon (CKD, Hu...I'm also in this group but I know I'm town) or off the wagon entirely (GIF, Eira's slot, Malcom, Enchant).

like i said, it was more the conjunction of all of the reasons rather than just one reason

[Flavor Leaf]

Andante (4): Kowahbunga, GuyInFreezer, Flavor Leaf, Venmar

+ enchant

That wagon just.. lmaooo ok.. rock solid TRs on them... Like, I have a level of SR on literally all 5 of these people

I kind of trust this entire wagon, tbh.

Hu Tao is obv town at this point, imo.

Hu Tao is so obv scum at this point...

do people still wanna do enchant/glitch? cause enchant is not town here lol

you know what, if Andante ends up being traitor, this could be the team idk. Not sure on anyone else confidently besides Andante here

[Flavor Leaf]

Theory has a nice life

[Flavor Leaf]

Had+

[Flavor Leaf]

I think we are getting distracted by Andante being combative, which isn't a bad thing, just personality

Nah, there’s a lot more to it at this point.

[Flavor Leaf]

That type of defense not gonna fly anymore tbh

[Flavor Leaf]

Personality defense is a tiny tiny smidgeon of the overall, and only really saying some of the things are NAI at face value, but that doesn’t mean that they aren’t alignment indicative in specific situation.

[Flavor Leaf]

And it just kind of proves that Hu Tao didn’t know what the case was on Andante

[Flavor Leaf]

While I don’t necessarily think Andante/Malcolm is scum theatre, I am tinfoiling a possible world with them both as scum.

That being said, even if/when Andante flips scum, it’s not like an immediate go to Malcolm. I generally town read them, and would trust my read.

But I felt like on the chance Andante flips, and then I die during the night (i can see reasons for why I would/wouldn’t), i wanted that to be out there as a possibility, and to use other reasons to town read Malcolm. I believe there are many other reasons.


Andante/Hu Tao/Malcolm is a tinfoil way too early solve, but I currently don’t see the ladder two as scum. Hu Tao I can make a bigger case for, but I saw Andante being performative with scum team in that other scum game,so I didn’t want to rule it out.

[Flavor Leaf]

@GIF/Enchant - As we saw in Demon Slayer, it looks like we’ve been in a higher active scum posting meta, and Hu Tao/Andante/Gimli/Myself being the highest posters, I see Andante/Hu Tao as some of the culprits here with it.

[Flavor Leaf]

I drank some beers but here are some quick thoughts:

Vig should shoot Andante to remove the noise and we should lim today one of those who were not on Kitty's wagon.

Why vig when we can fade

[Flavor Leaf]

Like, assuming one scum decided to bus Kitty, we would have 1 scum on that wagon and 2 scum outside of it.

That means the odds of limming scum are 1/9 on Kitty's wagon, and 2/7 outside of it.

We have a much bigger chance of limming scum if we vote one of those 7.

Why do you think only 1 scum bussed? This is a lot of assumptions, I don’t think there’s any strong merit to say that for sure

[Flavor Leaf]

That’s a better chance at hitting scum if we had no reasons and was throwing darts blindfolded when we had a whole giant day of info to pull from.

I think Andante is almost obviously scum at this point, so from my pov, the best chance at hitting scum is voting Andante.

[Flavor Leaf]

I don’t even see them as ‘noisy’ per day, they’ve been lowkey running the game, and the manipulation tactics are clear imo.

It’s the way they create a connection between them and the other slots. It is a strong pocketing tactic.

She’s likable, so you think she’s genuine and townie.

The thing is, she is super genuine. To her own statement, she said she’s really good at mirroring her town game as scum.

ScumAndante gets read as Townie by other townies, and a lot of things get brushed off of her for “oh, that’s just her personality”.

It doesn’t change the fact she uses them to position herself in the game. She’s a good scum player, that much is clear.

I saw in one of the games I read of her say she has 8-9 years of experience on EpicMafia.

This is someone who knows what she’s doing on a basic level, and while she may be newer to this style of play, certain skills definitely transfer over.

I think she’s a great player, and I’ve definitely underestimated her.

A Master Manipulator knows when a Master Manipulator is at work.

[Flavor Leaf]

Vig is better off shooting a no content slot over a high content slot.

[Flavor Leaf]

In case people missed Andante case.

Spoiler:

Here's some meta reasonings, but the case, at its core, isn't meta based. I would say it's Tactics and Objectively based that is further supported with some clear cut meta from an exact situation with TownMe going after ScumThem.

viewtopic.php?p=13221408#p13221408 - andante had a 'never claiming' mindset here in there town game.

in their scum game with me previously, and this game, they acted like PR, but claimed VT in both.

Said I was setting up flips in both scum games, didn't in their town game.

Had a 'scared aaah' reaction at the end of a scum flip. They bussed in the other one, i think they bussed here.
____

Now the base of my scum read comes from the next stuff, and I'll use a town example of theirs in comparison, but really the case works without it too.

They've been minimizing and misrepping cases on them all game here. That is inherently scummy. while here they were able to completely write out and explain in detail what someone was pushing them for as town.

On top of that, my day 1 case of them puffing chest because they knew there wasn't a case on them in addition to the ^.

And their incredibly stalled wagoning proving scum really didn't want the Andante wagon to go through while the Skygazer wagon was E-3 at one point, and had it gotten another vote, quick hammer range. This is probably the strongest base reason for scum Andante. While this alone wouldn't make them scum, this in conjunction with all of the others things probably does.

The Hot and Cold Treatment Rewarding Players when they town read them, and Punishing Players when they don't. I slightly slightly slighty turned off of them thanks to Kowahbunga's case on Andante, and they immediately flipped on me. After I started casing them, they immediately retracted.

There are tons and tons of different emotional tactics being used by Andante this game, such as the defeatist technique, the hyper post, and the all over the place. Sure, you can cut this back as personality, but there is no denying that these are both survivalistic tactics. Again, this is in conjunction with other things in the game, not this one singular thing.
_______

Now let's check out Kowabungha's case.

Kowabungha's Case is a strong singular point for them being scum in the fact that they are being incredibly inconsistent with their reads, and this implies that they are going with the flow and adapting when they need to. The biggest thing here is when Kowa says 'Why are you willing to vote out someone who is being scum read by your biggest scum read?" This might not be anything major at first glance, but when you combine this with Andante repeatedly saying this game they don't want to elim townies, it shows Andante as being incredibly performative here.

Kowa made an amazing reasoning pointing out Gimli telling Andante to come back to Kitty wagon after Andante tried one last ditch effort to get the momentum to move from Kitty to Malcolm.

Kowa also pointed out that Andante made a list of people they would be okay eliminating, and they put a large list with Kitty on it. We went Kitty. They couldn't back out of it because they already put them in the pool.

Kowa says they scum read Andante in a previous game and let them get away. This means both Kowa and Myself have previous experience with ScumAndante, and scum read them correctly at points.


And what is Andante's immediate response to this?

"The hell is this case?" An immediate shut down to a strong case. Even if Andante were town, this made sense as a case, it could have just been wrong. But instead it got shut down and pushed out with a "I explained Malcolm read yesterday". I didn't double check, but yeah.

They then go on and hard aggressively push me for 'setting up flips on them' when I talk about how I liked Kowabungha's case, and how it brought Andante down slightly. This lead me to wanting to deep dive because of the big overreaction. I was still lean town on Andante at that point.

Andante used the push on me to distract from Kowabungha's case and drown it out, causing it to be hidden.

Did anyone besides Gimli and I see the Kowabungha case? did anyone read Kowabungha's case?

Check the case out. It's a really good case imo.

But yeah, long story short, one of these things happening don't make Andante scum. All of these things together makes her scum.

[Flavor Leaf]

I'm in full support of flipping andante

The fact that you, me, and Bud are the ones on her right now feels super clean to me based on Kitty wagon too (among other things for town reading the two of you)

[Flavor Leaf]

are more likely scum.

How are they more likely to be scum? You're basing it off of a blank canvas and not actual reads. This is inherently untrue.

[Flavor Leaf]

I don't really want to go for a probability scum read, I'd rather just go for someone I think is like 98% scum.

I get what you're saying, but that feels like a starting point on how to find a different scum that we could possibly miss.

I don't really want to climb back down the mountain for me to make a plan how to climb up the mountain.

[Flavor Leaf]

i think 2 scum are probably on Kitty, though, so it feels like 1/7.

[Flavor Leaf]

My solve right now is Andante + one of Hu Tao/STD (lean Hu Tao) + 1 of Enchant/Malcolm/Eiralax/Skygazer.

Based on simply wagonomics not to mention reads.

Kowahbunga's Case on Andante makes them the most likely early busser, I think there's likely one more on it in Hu Tao/STD.

[Flavor Leaf]

I haven't had a chance to catch up, I'm just getting back in town now. What was the consensus on my case?

Andante and Gimli both didn’t like it immediately after you posted.

I thought it was a great case, and said it slightly moved Andante down, while not fully agreeing with it at the time.

Andante came after me since I was supporting the case, which got me to look deeper into them.

And I made my own case on Andante that included a bunch of analysis and a large section from your case within it.


Gimli has changed their mind on Andante for their own reasonings now as well.

So Myself, Gimli, and Bub are all currently voting Andante.

Your point on Andante moving off Kitty onto Malcolm, then being coaxed back to Kitty wrecked any town sentiment Andante had for being on the wagon.

I also found another scum game where Andante bussed a partner and went “aaaaaah I’m scared.” Similar to what they did here at the end of the day.

In addition to Andante wagon clearly not being one that scum wanted on Day 1, I think this implies Andante Scum for sure.

The fact that with you, me, Gimli, and Bud are the ones against Andante is super clean to me.

[Flavor Leaf]

lol the playstyle of this game is very different from anything ive recently encountered

very nervous for my read accuracy

Long time no see, sheep. It’sa me, the Boonskiies

[Flavor Leaf]

I’ll reformat my case with links, idk, probably Monday.

[Flavor Leaf]

Throw out a case

[Flavor Leaf]

I looked through Hu Tao’s ISO, and they have been repeatedly saying Venmar is the right call today.

However, these are the only possible reasons I can see for Venmar being scum at all.

Spoiler:

Also I'm not voting venmar at the moment cause i want to give them a 2nd look and I think we can solve way more things today.

I still think outing is bad. Unless there is a cc for the reason there is no night kill then we believe the claim. I believe it so far

Truth is that NJAC visited me last night with a loud action and honestly that's all I know about that :shrug:

the fact you instantly outed that is was NJAC... instead of just "LOUD PERSON VISITED ME!!!" what if it was a doc? like, if NJAC is town, you literally just told scum that NJAC is a doc/cop...
so honestly, for that reason alone, I kinda just want to
VOTE: Venmar

Yeah that was a very VERY bad move Venmar.

it seems odd to me that this should be the “way we go today” when the only thing I can see as a possible reason is that they claimed the NJAC Loud Role, which like, fine, I see why people can think that’s not the correct move, but I really don’t see it as that bad, and can easily see townie doing this possibly more than scum.

Why would scum need to out this?

The argument is that we want to keep info away from scum, but if Venmar was scum they would already know the role, meaning that entire argument is flawed.

If anything, it just makes a possible Vig take the risk of shooting a PR NJAC lower.

Not ready to move off Hu Tao, though, I keep going back and forth. Wanna see a dueling wagon with Venmar and Hu Tao, though.

The fact that you can put me in the same wagon right now as venmar is the reason people don't town read you

Hu Tao has also made a lot of posts like this, trying to tear me down, even if they’re straight up untrue.

I’d say I’m pretty high up on people’s town reads, so this just doesn’t make sense and is a pure attempt at pushing me down/discrediting.

Hu Tao has been playing objectively to defend Andante, and yes, you could argue they’re defending a town read, but a couple of things make it feel more like they’re defending a scum partner rather than a town read.

Hu Tao and Andante are not pairing up together on pushes.

Hu Tao’s only defense for Andante seems to be just ‘personality’, which is way past the point where that’s acceptable defense with actions.

They also fit the bill for a possible bus at the end of the wagon yesterday.

These are big reasons why I believe Hu Tao/Andante are scum together.

From the game I witnessed ScumAndante, they also did scum Theatre Day 1, so pushing each other Day 1, only to end up hard aimlessly defending without giving explanation is incredibly scummy to me.


And Hu Tao even put Andante in the list where they think there could be scum, yet now they’re fully acting like there’s absolutely zero chance again.

[Flavor Leaf]

oh ya would someone be willing to brief me on any mechanics stuff thats happened so far

not sure if thats the right move or I should catch up with an less-informed lens but wtv

Andante VT claim
Greeting Mason Claim
Greeting claimed Night 1 targeted by Announcing Jailkeeper.
There was no kill.

CuriousKD soft claim PR.
Venmar claimed NJAC targeted them with a Loud role Night 1

[Flavor Leaf]

okay will catch up tonight or tomorrow...doesnt look like a lot as occurred.

also..

Long time no see, sheep. It’sa me, the Boonskiies

HA, I have played with you before, Beisdes Cephirr, I thought everyone I have played with in the day has long since moved on. Now I dont remember ANYTHING about your play, but I did recalled your avatar, before I looked it up.

Nice. Long time ago for sure.

[Flavor Leaf]

Hu Tao went from 'not sure on Venmar' to 'this is the right play for the day' without having any sort of explanation for that trajectory. It's purely responsive imo.

[Flavor Leaf]

Only thing that could be close to the reason is that they outed that they got targeted by a Loud role.

I posted my analysis on why that reason is cap too here. The 'don't want to reveal info to scum' reason is flawed based on if Venmar is doing it as scum, they already know the role. It doesn't make sense if Venmar is scum to do so.

That implies Hu Tao is pushing Venmar for something they were trying to use as miselim opportunity rather than actually want them. If they had more reasons, fine, but look at Hu Tao's ISO. There's literally nothing besides what I've quoted that says why. Just a bunch of repeating 'Venmar, Venmar'.

I looked through Hu Tao’s ISO, and they have been repeatedly saying Venmar is the right call today.

However, these are the only possible reasons I can see for Venmar being scum at all.

Spoiler:

Also I'm not voting venmar at the moment cause i want to give them a 2nd look and I think we can solve way more things today.

I still think outing is bad. Unless there is a cc for the reason there is no night kill then we believe the claim. I believe it so far

Truth is that NJAC visited me last night with a loud action and honestly that's all I know about that :shrug:

the fact you instantly outed that is was NJAC... instead of just "LOUD PERSON VISITED ME!!!" what if it was a doc? like, if NJAC is town, you literally just told scum that NJAC is a doc/cop...
so honestly, for that reason alone, I kinda just want to
VOTE: Venmar

Yeah that was a very VERY bad move Venmar.

it seems odd to me that this should be the “way we go today” when the only thing I can see as a possible reason is that they claimed the NJAC Loud Role, which like, fine, I see why people can think that’s not the correct move, but I really don’t see it as that bad, and can easily see townie doing this possibly more than scum.

Why would scum need to out this?

The argument is that we want to keep info away from scum, but if Venmar was scum they would already know the role, meaning that entire argument is flawed.

[Flavor Leaf]

Adante (#510 to #515 is very scatterbrained and I don't fully buy the logic behind reading Hu Tao as scum for their interactions with Glitch, but i can't pin this behavior to either town or scum tbh. the subsequent hounding of players for thoughts on Hu Tao I also read as both as town following a tunnel read or scum getting easy engagement. #573 and #574 don't sit well with me either, former is an oversight since Flavor did give some thoughts on Hao, that alone is null but latter post feels suspiciously defensive. outburst on page 24 feels a bit more townie though, i see town pushing for activity more in this scenario. subsequent tunneling and justification being based on hao being inactive is then less attractive to me. the logic of activity = town and lurking = scum is really double downed on later on and idk what to make of it tbh. this is a read i'd lean scum if i received some convincing but tbh this could just be town with some goofy logic i dont jive with)

Venmar posted this way early into the game, and I actually like this a lot because I was thinking there was something off with Andante, and Andante pushing Hu Tao was rough and didn't feel genuine. I feel like this was Andante/Hu Tao doing low stakes distancing, something that Andante does do as Scum.

Venmar says that Andante asked for my thoughts on Hu Tao after I give some posts which is odd because I did give my thoughts on Hu Tao already..

It just really comes off as extremely performative on a reglance.

On top of all this, a lot of times there's a townie stuck in the center of a Scum group. I had this happen early game in Demon Slayer, but broke out of it as the game went on. I see this happen often.

When I pushed Malcolm in a game a while back, I death tunneled him, and he ended up being town, but scum were surrounding him, so I was right to feel scum energy.

I think Gimli was in that slot this game, being surrounded by Andante/Hu Tao scum. It's super easy to be in a pocket Day 1 with no flips.

As soon as Gimli started breaking out of the pocket, I started to get pocketed slightly, and Andante started to reward me, and punish Gimli, completely changing the gamestate dynamics.

[Flavor Leaf]

What are people’s CKD reasons?

[Flavor Leaf]

I think CKD, Kowah, and hopefully Sheep would be down to come onto Andante.

Idk. I just feel like nobody else is giving any reasons for anyone else, and scum are in a rough spot having lost Kitty, got a no kill, and then now are losing their bigger manipulator in Andante.

I think that makes sense with Kitty getting bussed because it saved the scum who was actually doing more for the game, and was a lurk scum basically.

I’m pretty lock on with Andante/Hu Tao, I don’t mean to beat a dead horse, but I do believe I’m giving new analysis often.

Like I have focused on Hu Tao the past couple days instead of Andante, and reads still evolving.

[Flavor Leaf]

Yeah, Venmar’s 3115 is exactly how I feel on both of those things.

Sheep’s is null because I know Sheep’s got a solid scum game, but they also get to play catch up for a little bit. Regardless of their alignment, I wouldn’t expect them to stay that way.


My main thing for thinking Venmar is town based on their play specifically rather than other slots in correlation to theirs is that they don’t seem to be doing anything scummy objectively. Like they aren’t pushing for anything in particular, rather saying some thoughts, and then voting somewhere.

Their votes have aligned with me a lot here, while having different reads here and there, but that just feels like that’s what they’re thinking. I don’t understand what Venmar would be going for if they were scum on an objective level.

[Flavor Leaf]

Gimli, Venmar, and Kowahbunga are probably my strongest town reads right now

[Flavor Leaf]

Andante, Hu Tao, NJAC, GIF, Enchant, Malcolm.

Whatever gets put on the most lists is likely town.

[Flavor Leaf]

Hey everyone!

Can you please order these six players from the scummiest to the least scummy?

{Enchant, Venmar, GIF, Malcolm, Eira, Sky}

Oh these players. I thought you meant to put our 6 scummiest players in a list, my bad.

Uh…..

GIF, Enchant, Malcolm, Eira, Sky, Venmar

[Flavor Leaf]

In addition to Andante wagon clearly not being one that scum wanted on Day 1, I think this implies Andante Scum for sure.

You saying like mafia controls half of votes but it's like 3-4 including Andante.

I don't remember how many players in this game fairly.

eh, you'd be surprised at how much influence scum have. it's one of scum's biggest strengths, tbh

[Flavor Leaf]

One little seemingly incremental discredit from a scum member can derail the energy behind a push, and one single vote can swing the momentum entirely.

[Flavor Leaf]

Hu Tao went from 'not sure on Venmar' to 'this is the right play for the day' without having any sort of explanation for that trajectory. It's purely responsive imo.

That's a lie. I've always wanted venmar since yesterday.

Oh, my mistake.

What were the reasons?

[Flavor Leaf]

Andante, Hu Tao, NJAC, GIF, Enchant, Malcolm.

Whatever gets put on the most lists is likely town.

Can you please elaborate on your reads on NJAC, GIF, Enchant and Malcolm?

NJAC is distracting away from Andante hardcore.

GIF is kinda POE'y here, I generally do think they're town off vibes and the fact they've had similar reads as me, but it's like a lesser Venmar read for me. Enchant's got nothing, but I usually think I could see if they're scum here. If they are, it'll be around Day 4 I start to see it.

Malcolm I sense as super townie, but I do think they make sense as a Hu Tao/Andante partner. But I like to trust my gut with Malcolm since I death tunneled them once, and I am feeling townie on them, and would really only start to look into them if and when Andante/Hu flipp scum, and even then, it might not end up analysis wise Malcolm for me. I like and agree with a lot of their posts, however their voting is what does it for me along with Andante possibly distancing.

[Flavor Leaf]

I think CKD, Kowah, and hopefully Sheep would be down to come onto Andante.

Here is my only hiccup with think that Andante is scum

Here is the problem with me swallowing Adante as scum. FL tell me why I am wrong.

at..

not official

Andante (7): Kowahbunga, Venmar, Bub Bidderskins, Flavor Leaf, Skygazer, Gimli, NJAC
Skygazer (5): Save The Dragons, NJAC, Greeting, Hu Tao, KT

also the Andante wagon just looks scummier.

fine..

Vote Skygazer

my vote on Bub isnt helping.

My vote put it at 7v6

in 1967, Andante voted Eira....she could have voted Sky, putting it at 7v7

would scum Andante in your meta do that? Also given the KT wagon (just reviewed again), hard for me to see ScumAndante bussing a partner in that way.

work that out for me.

It's not really a hiccup for me considering I think Hu Tao is like the lock scum partner for Andante.

Notice how I've asked for the Venmar reasons like 4 times now, and they chose to point out something incorrect without choosing to say anything on Venmar.

This Andante wagon is rather similar to yesterday's Andante wagon which was clear that scum didn't want it. Yesterday, it could have been scum didnt want it because Andante was a VT and they hadn't got claims, but Occam's razor is they didn't want it because they're just scum.

This has been a super hard wagon to get. We're just close to being able to get it here, and frankly most of the wagon makes up from people who were trying to get Andante yesterday + Kitty wagon, so it's extremely clean.

[Flavor Leaf]

Andante not doing that is somewhat a big reason that we went off Andante. They had also started to say for a minute Sky was town.

KT had just joined Sky too, so it's possible they didnt want to triple stack. I see Hu on Sky as well.

So it looks like Hu and KT joined Sky trying to save Andante.

[Flavor Leaf]

This is flipping town though

Why are you voting it if you're townreading it?

LOLOLOLOLOLOL
yeah, Andante is scum locked.

[Flavor Leaf]

If adante acts like this as scum top I'm fine eliminating them today but would require at least a proof of game

Proof came, by the way. And Hu Tao still pushed it as 'personality'.

Also I just looked through Hu Tao's ISO, and don't see a single post about Venmar. I could be wrong, but I'd like to see where Hu Tao meant they were scum reading Venmar since Day 1.

Because, as I've pointed out already, they didn't even seem to scum read them beginning of Day 2.

Also, would like to see some reasons for Venmar? Otherwise, they're just blank pushing.

[Flavor Leaf]

your progression on eira has been bonkers btw andante

you call him scum but you also say you're readless on the slot

I kinda felt you were svs with him a few times but I'm glad you're trying to quickwagon him

This was a good post.

I'm curious to see Sheep's dynamic.

[Flavor Leaf]

This is flipping town though

Why are you voting it if you're townreading it?

LOLOLOLOLOLOL
yeah, Andante is scum locked.

explained to me the thought process here, because I got something else from this post.

Andante was pushing that everyone voting them ‘knew’ they were town, but were voting them anywhere. Kitty is using a similar defense there that defends Andante by possibly getting GIF to move.

Kitty also votes Skygazer, the counterwagon to Andante. So they’re pretty clearly trying to not have Andante eliminated.

On top of that, Andante had voted Skygazer multiple times, yet wouldn’t join the wagon. My main theory for this is that multiple scum were already on that wagon. We know KittyTacky was one, and defending Andante, so with another on Sky, I think it makes sense that Andante didn’t want to join Sky, a slot they had already voted multiple times, because now multiple scum were on it.

This on top of the fact that Andante moved off of Kitty wagon when it started gaining steam even after they said they would be fine eliminating Kitty is incriminating. This one is Kowahbungah’s Case from pages back.

[Flavor Leaf]

well, disregard that last post by me then.

[Flavor Leaf]

yeah, if a scum is bussing Andante right now, it's GIF. I don't think it's 100%, but yeah.

This day ends with Andante flip. It opens up entire game too.

[Flavor Leaf]

I can't articulate it yet, but I don't like Curious last like 5-10 posts.

It almost feels like they want to come across as disagreeing about Andante, but only so that they can be seen changing their mind.

you're on fire this game. I noticed that somewhat, but not to the extent you're putting it. It's also an 'if' they have to change their mind about it.

CDK can be in the pools I think for the future days, they're stuck with their soft claims already too.

[Flavor Leaf]

viewtopic.php?p=13145880#p13145880

AndanteScum saying I was setting elims up for the future here as well.

SO since you are doing so much work here and seemed sold....I looked into this game...(kind of). the Scum chat was interesting....there Admante partner coached with..

"just spam as much as you possibly can, when pushed don't use logic, just ate
works evey time"

later Andante says "I'm trying to find my element!!! like, once I'm in the zone, ultimate spamming can begin, cause I have to be fairly genuine too... ahhhh"

later still "lmaooo that sounds like a good plan to me!!! I mean, I helped add 200 posts in a few hours... Aza got overwhelmed, bad look for aza, great for us,"

so spamming is a straight up tactic for Andante..

I got to say, reading this mafia PT, Andante you are more calculating that I gave you credit for here in this game. going to compare the two a bit more.

this doesn't look partnery to me then, and scumCKD doesnt have a lot of reason to defend townAndante, especially if they're waffling on going on or not, however Kowah's post could imply this scum, Andante town, but only can know that after an Andante flip anyways.

But if I recall, CKD said something early day 2 implying they could have been a reason the kill didnt go through the night, which I could WIFOM myself both ways, so yeah, CKD should definitely be in the pool of possible scum as the game goes on.

[Flavor Leaf]

Hu Tao is just scum trying to get a vig pool going, CKD.

I'm leaning town with CKD despite some of the weird stuff. It feels more genuine than say NJAC/Hu Tao's posts, and at least I can see a thought process.

I think NJAC solves themselves if they are town, but their posting lately seems like they had to turn on some things.

Hu Tao has one clear objective here and it's to protect a buddy.

They can't make a Venmar case or they out that they don't really scum read them.

[Flavor Leaf]

The fact both NJAC/Hu Tao brought up where the vig should be shooting in the way they both did guarantees to me that there's scum there. I don't think it's impossible they're S/S, but it's probably not both of them.

Regardless, I still want Andante before either of them. I'll reformat the case tonight.

[Flavor Leaf]

I dont like the wagon and I feel like there is a whole game of scummy people here that would MORE telling if they flipped. TO INCLUDE ME! There has been MULTIPLE people say they thought I was scummy for this reason or that, but are leaning on this wagon.

Explain why you think there are others that would be more telling than Andante at this point, because I hard disagree with this sentiment.

Andante was a main wagon today and Day 1, meaning there are tons and tons of different things that has happened around them, so I have absolutely no clue who you could possibly mean that would be more telling.

On top of that, there's like 6 legit cases and reasons to why Andante is just objectively scum here, such as the Kitty hop off even though they said it was in their pool, the legit actions from Meta games, like the 'aahhhh im scared' specifically when Andante had bussed a partner before.

The pure fact that scum clearly do not want Andante eliminated.

The Reward/Punish gameplay which is a clear Conditioned response.

Idk, CKD, that line just doesn't hold up.

[Flavor Leaf]

I can literally go on and on about the different reasons Andante is objectively scum here, and I have, but I haven't done it in the past couple days, because I've been more focused on Hu Tao.

I don't know what to tell ya, CKD. Andante's just scum here, and integrated with the most, so their flip opens up the game more than anyone without a doubt here.

[Flavor Leaf]

Gimli
Kowahbunga
Venmar

curiouskarmadog
Bub Bidderskins

MalcolmTucker
Skygazer
NJAC
GuyInFreezer

STD
Enchant
Sheep

Hu Tao

Andante


GuyInFreezer and up are town reads to differing levels. I expect Zero or One scum in my town reads.

[Flavor Leaf]

@Curious - Kowahbunga's Case went over it very well.

I just made a little trajectory quote chain here in the spoilers. Andante saw the momentum going, and then actively tried to derail. It wasn't as noticeable during the day, but in hindsight, this is kinda huge.

On top of that, the 'aaaah im scared' at the end is exactly what happened when I saw Andante as Scum bus in the game you saw the meta with them as well.

Spoiler:

VOTE: Kitty

VOTE: kitty

VOTE: kitty

VOTE: kitty

The extent of Andante's tunnelling on me makes me lean more town again there. The case isn't strong and they're basically trying to use whatever they can to make the scumread fit even if it's illogical, but I think scum in that position is more careful to actually mount a logic-based case.

but we’re talking about me? when do I even have this huge “logic based case”??? this feels like your attempt to go “don’t worry I tr you!” to get me to stop tunneling

also “what’s the case on kitty I’ll vote there to end day” is that you saying you know this flips town and you want one of us town to own it so it’s out fault not yours?

VOTE: malcolm

The extent of Andante's tunnelling on me makes me lean more town again there. The case isn't strong and they're basically trying to use whatever they can to make the scumread fit even if it's illogical, but I think scum in that position is more careful to actually mount a logic-based case.

but we’re talking about me? when do I even have this huge “logic based case”??? this feels like your attempt to go “don’t worry I tr you!” to get me to stop tunneling

also “what’s the case on kitty I’ll vote there to end day” is that you saying you know this flips town and you want one of us town to own it so it’s out fault not yours?

VOTE: malcolm

lmao go back to kitty

The extent of Andante's tunnelling on me makes me lean more town again there. The case isn't strong and they're basically trying to use whatever they can to make the scumread fit even if it's illogical, but I think scum in that position is more careful to actually mount a logic-based case.

but we’re talking about me? when do I even have this huge “logic based case”??? this feels like your attempt to go “don’t worry I tr you!” to get me to stop tunneling

also “what’s the case on kitty I’ll vote there to end day” is that you saying you know this flips town and you want one of us town to own it so it’s out fault not yours?

VOTE: malcolm

lmao go back to kitty

I think malcolm knows kitty flips town

andante I just wanna get through an elim that isn't you

don't derail the wagon pls

andante I just wanna get through an elim that isn't you

don't derail the wagon pls

and I just wanna lim scum, that's where we differ

mmk kitty wagon. full send. no brakes
VOTE: Kitty

[Flavor Leaf]

Gimli is 100% always town, and I will die on that hill.

[Flavor Leaf]

I can literally go on and on about the different reasons Andante is objectively scum here, and I have, but I haven't done it in the past couple days, because I've been more focused on Hu Tao.

I don't know what to tell ya, CKD. Andante's just scum here, and integrated with the most, so their flip opens up the game more than anyone without a doubt here.

Really at this point, if I joined the Andante wagon after stomping my feet down all day and saying how much I would rather want other people to die....their flip will hurt me either way.

I know ....I know...that isnt a reason to not join a wagon, but I just dont feel like they are scum. Maybe I am wrong. How about this, if you need a hammer....i will do it at the appropriate time and take whatever fucking grief will come.

that being said, what about that Hu wagon?

I will always go Andante before Hu Tao, since most of my Hu Tao read comes from Andante. I don't see the purpose of Hu tao white knighting Andante if Hu Tao is scum and Andante is town. They aren't gonna get much credit from that. This is like one of those times I'm beyond confident in my read on Andante. And if I'm wrong, I will take that heat and egg on my head. I was first on Kitty wagon, so the egg will certainly be made with some salt and still tasty, but nonetheless.

Like Hu Tao's trying so hard to minimize any discussion too. They have zero conviction in anything they push, and are just throwing things out that lead to an objectively stronger position for Andante/Hu Tao scum team.

There is absolutely zero explanation for their Venmar scum read, and it's because they can't figure it out. If they tried to scum case them, they'd be forcing it at this point.

At least NJAC said 'just a gut feeling' which like isn't an amazing reason, but it makes sense and is acceptable to feel that way.

Hu tao isn't even trying to explain, they're just blindly protecting their partner.

[Flavor Leaf]

if I joined the Andante wagon after stomping my feet down all day and saying how much I would rather want other people to die....their flip will hurt me either way.

eh, i think it shows a townie trajectory of being able to reconsider.

The difference between you being against Andante wagon is vastly different than Hu Tao, NJAC's, and even Skygazer's to an extent, but they were prodging, so they have some leeway.

You're thought process behind it is showing. Hu Tao is posting a stake in the ground with their play right now and actively HIDING their thought process. NJAC, idk what NJAC's doing, I can see it coming from scum or town. Their spot on the Kitty wagon right around Andante is favorable for them, so I still want to believe NJAC is town.

Skygazer is probs just vibe reading Andante, but Andante, according to Hu Tao, is just personality, and according to Andante, they can easily mirror their town game, so vibe checking doesn't work for Andante. You gotta look objectively because their town game and scum game will feel the same vibe wise, it's just the objective level from Andante that is scummy.

[Flavor Leaf]

and I just wanna lim scum, that's where we differ

God this is such an awful post. Andante put Kitty in the "would lim pile" so they HAD to be scum reading Kitty. But still gave Kitty a town read here lmao D2 is over everyone, let's move on.

Just before someone acts like this was me saying this, it was Andante's line, and Kowabungha quoted it through me and deleted quotes

[Flavor Leaf]

This chain is also indicative of scumAndante.

Regardless of Andante's alignment, this was a good reason for Kowahbunga to see as possibly coming from ScumAndante.

Andante immediately attacks it and discredits it. This is part of the Hot and Cold Conditioning case, rewarding for when town does right to them, and scum does bad to them.

They then attack me because I slightly SLIGHTLY agreed to it.

Then I went and explored Andante's other games, and made a giant case. Afterwards, Andante pushed harder with the combative reads, and they became even more Superficial. My theory for this is they tried to make it look so ridiculous we had to push it aside, but I think that was the purpose of it.

It allowed Hu Tao to go 'o jus personality' without opening up anything else on it.

Like you can see in Andante that they know they're caught. Yes, their posts and energy vibes come off as townie, but when you look deeper and do analysis on their objectives, you can see. This is how you catch people like this. You have to look at them objectively, and what they're going for.

They aren't trying to catch scum, they're trying to misfade townies who can be perceived as scum and survive. This is why it makes absolutely no sense for them to have been on Eiralax and Malcolm for as long as they were.

Malcolm's probably a partner, tbh, but I don't really feel like getting into that right now, I do lean MalcolmTown based off of everything except for Andante's actions towards them, and that really just relies on AndanteScum to go further with it wagonomically.

Spoiler:

I would like people's opinion on the following Andante info.

Spoiler:

1677 - Andante makes a vote on Malcolm.

There are numerous posts about Malcolm being scum then...

1967 - The vote goes away and to Eiralox.

Posting continues to speak about Malcolm scum for some time.

2109 - Votes FL.

2142 - Votes Greeting. Also Andante voted for Greeting again in 2177 -shrug-

2206 - Malcolm's name pops up again.

2221 - Unovte's Greeting.

2275 - Bring's up the Malcolm scum read again.

Now where it gets interesting, I think.

2304 - A HARD scum read on Malcolm. But I'm paying closer attention to this list here:

all these below are null/no read, and I'm not digging through ISOs right now
Kowahbunga
Venmar KawaiiKame
GuyInFreezer Brickwalll
KittyTacky
Eiralox ballpointpen
Hu Tao
Save The Dragons
NJAC
Bub Bidderskins
Enchant Glitch

In 2307 they update the reads giving town reads to Hu Tao, Enchant, and STV. New list without these players (also updated in this post linked):

Kowahbunga
Venmar KawaiiKame
GuyInFreezer Brickwalll
KittyTacky
Eiralox ballpointpen
NJAC
Bub Bidderskins

From there, they provide the same list in their next post 2308 with a header that reads:

I'm good with limming any of

Mysteriously no Malcolm.

2311 - Kitty vote. Here is context for the vote (Andante states in 2309 they'd vote this whole list, the very next post in the thread is FL voting for someone on Andante's list):

I'm good with limming any of

Kowahbunga
Venmar KawaiiKame
GuyInFreezer Brickwalll
KittyTacky
Eiralox ballpointpen
NJAC
Bub Bidderskins

VOTE: Kitty

VOTE: kitty

VOTE: kitty

If it just ended here, I feel like I would town read Andante. Because it makes sense. Provide a list of names they'd be okay yeeting, and go with a wagon forming on one of them. But Andante's next post is post 2317 where they unvote Kitty in favour of Malcolm. (I'll come back to this)

Some other tidbits as I dig deeper into this. Andante's final list (marked orange if it lines up with the list):

Andante (7):

Kowahbunga

,

Venmar

,

Bub Bidderskins

, Flavor Leaf, Skygazer,

NJAC

, Gimli

The reason I point these names out, and specifically NJAC, is because they were included on this list while still being voted by Andante's biggest scum read in Malcolm. That doesn't make any sense. Especially considering how Andante spent the last half of D1 with nothing but self perseverance on their agenda. Why are you willing to vote out someone that is being scum read by your biggest scum read? I gotta be honest, reading the last 25%-ish of D1 and seeing Andante latching on to everyone else's scum reads, while pretending to scum read malcolm (yeah taking some liberties here, but when you don't even include their name in your list of "i'd lim these people" list... Are you really scum reading them?) and creating what looks like a list of name on their wagon as scum reads minus the people who I feel confident they believe would be able to direct town somewhere else (FL and Gimli - Skygazer was left off the list because of the attempted heroic sacrifice and huge major hard town read).

I think Andante provided a list with names on it of people from their wagon, and at least one scum partner (kitty) on it. When FL essentially called their bluff and chose Kitty, Andante was forced to vote Kitty at this point. No voting meant their list they just provided was BS (which I now firmly believe it was anyways), the vote likely turns back to Andante and kitty is then yeeted D2 because of Andante's actions to get voted out.

So they toss the vote down. But then one last ditch effort they try to throw it back at Malcolm in their next 6 posts. Which a cherry on top is 2323 where they even try and town read Kitty and again in 2327 where Andante says "I just wanna lim scum" which again is a town read on Kitty. Before finally putting the vote back on Kitty in 2333. Who they've town read in two posts prior. (I can go in to more detail of why I consider these town reads if others don't see it)

Andante's play in D1 was about survival, not finding scum. Which is funny because they ended up having to vote their teammate.

So if anyone was a partner of Kitty, I'd bet on Andante.

Now the reason I ask for the opinion is because I'm having a bit of a struggle with myself. I scum read Andante pretty heavily in our previous game together and let them get away. Now I can't tell if I'm doing everything to be sure that doesn't happen again or if I've actually uncovered something.

Eh, it's good enough to drop Andante down a tier in my town reads. I think that makes a lot of sense from a potential ScumAndante perspective.

the hell is this case??

i literally gave the reasoning for the reads yesterday? obv malcolm wagon wasn’t ever happening..

I would like people's opinion on the following Andante info.

Spoiler:

1677 - Andante makes a vote on Malcolm.

There are numerous posts about Malcolm being scum then...

1967 - The vote goes away and to Eiralox.

Posting continues to speak about Malcolm scum for some time.

2109 - Votes FL.

2142 - Votes Greeting. Also Andante voted for Greeting again in 2177 -shrug-

2206 - Malcolm's name pops up again.

2221 - Unovte's Greeting.

2275 - Bring's up the Malcolm scum read again.

Now where it gets interesting, I think.

2304 - A HARD scum read on Malcolm. But I'm paying closer attention to this list here:

all these below are null/no read, and I'm not digging through ISOs right now
Kowahbunga
Venmar KawaiiKame
GuyInFreezer Brickwalll
KittyTacky
Eiralox ballpointpen
Hu Tao
Save The Dragons
NJAC
Bub Bidderskins
Enchant Glitch

In 2307 they update the reads giving town reads to Hu Tao, Enchant, and STV. New list without these players (also updated in this post linked):

Kowahbunga
Venmar KawaiiKame
GuyInFreezer Brickwalll
KittyTacky
Eiralox ballpointpen
NJAC
Bub Bidderskins

From there, they provide the same list in their next post 2308 with a header that reads:

I'm good with limming any of

Mysteriously no Malcolm.

2311 - Kitty vote. Here is context for the vote (Andante states in 2309 they'd vote this whole list, the very next post in the thread is FL voting for someone on Andante's list):

I'm good with limming any of

Kowahbunga
Venmar KawaiiKame
GuyInFreezer Brickwalll
KittyTacky
Eiralox ballpointpen
NJAC
Bub Bidderskins

VOTE: Kitty

VOTE: kitty

VOTE: kitty

If it just ended here, I feel like I would town read Andante. Because it makes sense. Provide a list of names they'd be okay yeeting, and go with a wagon forming on one of them. But Andante's next post is post 2317 where they unvote Kitty in favour of Malcolm. (I'll come back to this)

Some other tidbits as I dig deeper into this. Andante's final list (marked orange if it lines up with the list):

Andante (7):

Kowahbunga

,

Venmar

,

Bub Bidderskins

, Flavor Leaf, Skygazer,

NJAC

, Gimli

The reason I point these names out, and specifically NJAC, is because they were included on this list while still being voted by Andante's biggest scum read in Malcolm. That doesn't make any sense. Especially considering how Andante spent the last half of D1 with nothing but self perseverance on their agenda. Why are you willing to vote out someone that is being scum read by your biggest scum read? I gotta be honest, reading the last 25%-ish of D1 and seeing Andante latching on to everyone else's scum reads, while pretending to scum read malcolm (yeah taking some liberties here, but when you don't even include their name in your list of "i'd lim these people" list... Are you really scum reading them?) and creating what looks like a list of name on their wagon as scum reads minus the people who I feel confident they believe would be able to direct town somewhere else (FL and Gimli - Skygazer was left off the list because of the attempted heroic sacrifice and huge major hard town read).

I think Andante provided a list with names on it of people from their wagon, and at least one scum partner (kitty) on it. When FL essentially called their bluff and chose Kitty, Andante was forced to vote Kitty at this point. No voting meant their list they just provided was BS (which I now firmly believe it was anyways), the vote likely turns back to Andante and kitty is then yeeted D2 because of Andante's actions to get voted out.

So they toss the vote down. But then one last ditch effort they try to throw it back at Malcolm in their next 6 posts. Which a cherry on top is 2323 where they even try and town read Kitty and again in 2327 where Andante says "I just wanna lim scum" which again is a town read on Kitty. Before finally putting the vote back on Kitty in 2333. Who they've town read in two posts prior. (I can go in to more detail of why I consider these town reads if others don't see it)

Andante's play in D1 was about survival, not finding scum. Which is funny because they ended up having to vote their teammate.

So if anyone was a partner of Kitty, I'd bet on Andante.

Now the reason I ask for the opinion is because I'm having a bit of a struggle with myself. I scum read Andante pretty heavily in our previous game together and let them get away. Now I can't tell if I'm doing everything to be sure that doesn't happen again or if I've actually uncovered something.

this is setting up for when you leave me alive in endgame cause you made me claim VT… WHY WOULD I EVER DIE? funny how kpwabungah waits till I’m the only one pushing him to case me… but I hate this post below. bestie status gone

VOTE: FL

Yeah, Kowah's town for anyone. I like the case, and why they think that based on the quick skim, I'll look into it more later, but yeah. It's not even impossible they're correct.

I don't share the scum read on Andante right now here, but yeah. If Andante is in endgame, probably don't let them slide.

[Flavor Leaf]

Gimli is 100% always town, and I will die on that hill.

look, I read you as town...probably the most town. BUT our reads are so different.

And honestly, I think post game if you're town, you're gonna be the one that's gonna be having the wrong reads.

Gimli and I were the first two ones on Kitty, and actively got Andante back on the wagon.

If you think that's a bus by either of us when we absolutely did not have to land on Kitty, I don't know what to tell ya.

I think you need to reassess your reads.

[Flavor Leaf]

Unless i am being pocketed. Which is kinda silly, because i am pretty useless.

I think it made sense Day 1 and early Day 2 because you and I were at odds.

If you wanna talk personality, you and I are the real ones that got at each other for personality. Scum took advantage of that dynamic obviously.

I'm pretty on board with town you, though, I just can't really explain it more than just 'Enchant's made absolutely zero objective based moves as scum'.

And I think that's solid enough to not want you right now, but not enough to move you up in the tiers.

[Flavor Leaf]

Gimli
Kowahbunga
Venmar

curiouskarmadog
Bub Bidderskins

MalcolmTucker
Skygazer
NJAC
GuyInFreezer

STD
Enchant
Sheep

Hu Tao

Andante

This is my lean town group.

I really do think it's just the bottom 2 then 1 in those 6. I don't think it's GIF/Bub, Curious is being super genuine imo, so I think they're just completely misguided town. Skygazer/Malcolm/NJAC I all lean town on, but I could technically make a partner case for all of them. These wouldn't be dealt with til later with more flips, and frankly, I probably won't be around by this time anyways, so it's for the rest of yall to look into.

[Flavor Leaf]

idk what NJAC's doing

I'm trying to use the time I have on D2 to do some scumhunt. I think I won't last much in this game, because scum already knows I'm a PR.

I admit the case on Andante is sound, but my focus has been on those who were not on Kitty's wagon.

Anyway, if I have not made that clear yet, then I'll say it again: I don't oppose Andante's lim at all.

nah, scum should clearly kill me tonight, you can be protected, I cant....

Why should scum be afraid of you? You're protecting them. PR claim isn't enough to warrant a Night Kill, especially considering there's likely stronger PR's out there. You yourself said you were a weaker role, and Ascetic is inherently scummy, so they could always misfade you later.

Scum have no reason to night kill an ascetic claim.

[Flavor Leaf]

idk what NJAC's doing

I'm trying to use the time I have on D2 to do some scumhunt. I think I won't last much in this game, because scum already knows I'm a PR.

I admit the case on Andante is sound, but my focus has been on those who were not on Kitty's wagon.

Anyway, if I have not made that clear yet, then I'll say it again: I don't oppose Andante's lim at all.

You know what, I do remember this. That's the biggest difference between you and Hu Tao.

What has Hu Tao done at all this day phase? What read explanation for anything they have out there this day phase?

[Flavor Leaf]

STD
Enchant
Sheep

The reason my null group isn't really a worry for me is I know all 3 of these players, and have interacted with all of them over the years in enough of a way where I know they'll become ObvTown as the game goes on if they're town. All 3 of these players have that natural ability.

[Flavor Leaf]

Gimli, I think you or myself dies tonight over PR's.

[Flavor Leaf]

Enchant, if anyone but me made the Andante case, you'd be all over it.

[Flavor Leaf]

Wait, I guess that's not true, because Kowah made the first truly damning case, but I did piggy back onto it, so I think that sentiment still counts.

[Flavor Leaf]

Enchant, if anyone but me made the Andante case, you'd be all over it.

Not really i decided to ignore all cases

I couldn't decide if I think that's better or worse, so I decided it's both.

[Flavor Leaf]

Enchant, if anyone but me made the Andante case, you'd be all over it.

Not really i decided to ignore all cases

I put a lot of work into my case though

you flipped me out of my temporary pocket with it. It is legit the most damning reason for why Andante is scum. (other than the 'aaaahhh i'm scared' on the bus meta, of course

Wagonomically, they're pretty obv scum too, but people gloss over this stuff for some reason.

[Flavor Leaf]

I didn't ask you though

the disrespeck to Kowah

[Flavor Leaf]

we need to start helping the meta turn to giving clout to those detectives. Kowah killed it.

[Flavor Leaf]

For what it's worth, my last game where I caught AndanteScum, Day 2 I temporarily doubted my read, and let another wagon go, I got killed that Night, and Andante won the game.

It's literally the exact situation from that game, even with similar happenings, like Andante calling out 'contradictions', the Andante VT claim, the saying I'm setting up multiple misvotes, the woe is me. the aaaah im scared bus.

the waffling before they end up bussing.

I am essentially without doubt that Andante is scum here.

These are SUPPLEMENTARY reasons why i think she's scum too. There's just an avalanche of evidence that shows they're scum.

NJAC at least explained their thought process, which goes a long way, NJAC.

[Flavor Leaf]

you're on a rare game where people listen to you I think

I read every single Enchant post. I might not always like them, but I read them.

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: Andante

Like fine, okay, why not, what chances my opinion will be even considered.

Just get on the Party Bus, we'll have a good time.

[Flavor Leaf]

we'll play some good 'ol mafia, celebrate getting 2 scum in a row, then drink too much and throw the rest of the game afterwards, but what a ride it'll be!

[Flavor Leaf]

Sheep and Curious, take us home!

[Flavor Leaf]

Also, if I went from defending Hu Tao town, to pushing Andante Town, to soul reading Andante, to hard pushing Andante and Hu Tao scum only to find out Gimli is scum, this game is absolutely hilarious.

But Gimli is always 100% town in my eyes, I've accepted that fate if I'm wrong. They perfectly bussed if that was the case. I just don't feel it happening.

It was the 'lmao get back on Kitty' tbh. That just doesn't ever feel like a scum post.

[Flavor Leaf]

im being purposefully cagey rn

they can't kill the both of us so it won't matter much ig

I almost said 'I like how you're keeping your reads to yourself', but I didn't want to out the strat. It's a good call.

[Flavor Leaf]

FL I think my worldview is currently growing kinda different from urs lol sorry

how much is based on stuff ive read so far / are there any main posts I should direct attention to

Eh, just for the record, I started Day 2 with a hard town read on Andante, and specifically think Vibe/Emotion reads on Andante shouldn't be trusted.

I have a really large case, but it's almost better if you read as much as you wanna read, and then check out my pov.

Specifically the best reason Andante is scum is for how the end of the day wagon on Kitty with, and that with all the supplementary reasons indicates Andante is always scum here, imo.

[Flavor Leaf]

when ppl say andante ATE is nai, is that the specific definition as a self-defense tactic, or is that general emotion

im feeling her overall emotions so far to be real, like genuine investment in her reads, genuinely wanting to see the changes in the game that she wants etc

does the meta say anything about that

I would say this applies to ScumAndante too, though. It's a personality thing. Goes both ways for the people trying to defend with just that.

The Meta reasons I'm pushing on Andante is the waffle bus, then the "Aaaaah Im scared" line, the VT claim, the calling me out on silly contradictions and saying I'm setting up misfades.

A lot of towns also naturally town read scumAndante because they're going off vibes, but Andante specifically stated they're strong at mirroring their town game too, which I believe. Their tone and vibes will be consistent no matter their alignment.

[Flavor Leaf]

Hu Tao went from 'not sure on Venmar' to 'this is the right play for the day' without having any sort of explanation for that trajectory. It's purely responsive imo.

That's a lie. I've always wanted venmar since yesterday.

Oh, my mistake.

What were the reasons?

@Hu Tao - I admitted the mistake, don't act like I'm misrepping.

I also asked for the reasons other than that claim shenanigan.

[Flavor Leaf]

Which of these are reasons? The 'setting up' of mis elims, off of one post here? Can you explain the other ones, because they seem like you're just asking questions about Venmar and 'seeming pretty scummy'. These were also pretty early Day 1, so want to see how your read has changed/evolved over, because I remember beginning of Day 2 you weren't as sold here, so odd you're acting like it's been there since Day 1. I'm sure some of it would have.

Spoiler:

Also the more I read back on Hu and Andante I feel like one has to be scum and one has to be town

Posts like this ping me as setting up one after the other votes

I think Ceph and Hu might be scum together, those skygazer votes stink hard

So you think as scum I'd try to get vote off town in your scenario to another town? Cause you said me and adante can't be scum together already

Definitely not the fact that this day has gone on for an eternity and you and Hu (the person you kept telling me to te) are trying to pointlessly derail to skygazer atm, or am i the clown rn

I'm confused. Do you think adante is town or scum. Cause you stated that you think one of us is scum and you're voting her yet still posting that you think I'm scum with Ceph [which is hilarious btw]

If people want a Venmar wagon I'm more than happy to do that. Actually would prefer that. Venmar's posting defense or Sky seems like scum defending a Townie for no reason. He hasn't given a good reason for the defense either. But I could be overthinking. Thoughts?

I'm a sucker for AtE. I don't want Ceph. I think their spouse would be able to tell of they are faking it. Unless they are scum together but I don't think Dragons is scum.

I think sky is still the best vote and I think Venmar has been quite scummy in the last few pages

I think Ceph and Hu might be scum together, those skygazer votes stink hard

This post in particular seems bad. Because he already stated 1 scum in me and adante and he's still voting adante and still pushing Ceph after this. Also I just think Ceph and my interactions from even early game should show we likely aren't aligned but that's my bias opinion from me knowing I'm town I guess.

I'm a sucker for AtE. I don't want Ceph. I think their spouse would be able to tell of they are faking it. Unless they are scum together but I don't think Dragons is scum.

I think sky is still the best vote and I think Venmar has been quite scummy in the last few pages

Would scum nonchalantly do the exact same thing she got wagoned for before?

Yeah I'm kinda seeing that. What's your thoughts on venmar?

VOTE: venmar

New train is leaving the station. All aboard

Vote Venmar then. I would prefer that over sky I think

I see no reason for this wagon on NJAC to have been dropped. Nothing has fundamentally changed about their play since it first formed, they remain fairly quiet and cautious in their play in a way I find believable in scum, and I don't think all that many people have particularly moved their read on the slot? That it was so close to working out and yet seems to have faded away seems suspicious to me, don't like it at all.

The vote on Skygazer isn't great either given that wagon has sort of popped up out of nowhere.

VOTE: NJAC

That vote isn't happening today. What do you think about venmar though?

I'm fine with sky but I still think venmar is scum

Flavor what are your thoughts on venmar

@flavor you saying you iso'd me and I never scumread venmar day 1 is a lie. Your posts keep getting more suspicious

[Flavor Leaf]

Also I'm not voting venmar at the moment cause i want to give them a 2nd look and I think we can solve way more things today.

you basically just went into the claim thing being bad after this, but it doesn't make sense for scum in that setup. I can see why a townie would push outing as bad, though, I just don't think it makes logical sense for Venmar scum to out there. It just doesn't effect scum in anyway if they were scum. It doesn't out anything because they would have already known NJAC's role.

[Flavor Leaf]

The hop on Venmar looks like scum trying to pounce on a townie that they perceived to be outing information, and the only reason that Hu Tao thought that Venmar was outing information with it is because they got information out of it.

This means if Hu Tao ends up being scum, both Venmar and NJAC are conf town unless we get some next level weird plays.

[Flavor Leaf]

The hop on Venmar looks like scum trying to pounce on a townie that they perceived to be outing information, and the only reason that Hu Tao thought that Venmar was outing information with it is because they got information out of it.

This means if Hu Tao ends up being scum, both Venmar and NJAC are conf town unless we get some next level weird plays.

this is a really weird loop because I can see townies seeing the outing of it and thinking similar to it too, but yeah.

[Flavor Leaf]

@Sheep - join Andante. I wanna see if CKD hammers like they say they would.

[Flavor Leaf]

@Sheep - join Andante. I wanna see if CKD hammers like they say they would.

LOL, dont like this peer pressure post. I said I would hammer if needed and I will. What was the purpose of this post?

that being said, if I were scum and Andante was also scum, I would also hammer at this point.

was checking this morning to see if it was needed.

i think the purpose is stated in the quoted post.

[Flavor Leaf]

i just wanna see

[Flavor Leaf]

i have a retort of a question back to that

do you think i dont wanna see it? am i lying?

[Flavor Leaf]

Nice.

No regrets.

[Flavor Leaf]

Kitty wagon was awesome.

Andante wagon was also awesome in a different way.

I’ve gotten night killed in every game I’ve played since returning

[Flavor Leaf]

fun scum thread read lol