Large Normal 199: L'Hôtel Pleuvoir (Fin)
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That said, it strikes me that there's no advantage to be gained from Elbirn no-killing then no-lynching.
This immediately makes me suspicious of AJ. He's kind of skated by for days when we've been distracted elsewhere."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Yeah, that's not how it works. "Narrow to two suspects" is bullshit and a myth. You're thinking of it from the wrong meta perspective. You've got to get your mind into a scum mindset; they aren't eliminating an opponent, they're choosing which two opponents to take to endgame.
Refusing to participate in MYLO means scum get to shape endgame to their own desire."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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There isn't a good reason. It is objectively an error.In post 4689, Elbirn wrote:Can someone better at math than me tell me this, why does scum no kill twice? Wouldn't one no kill have gotten us to a 4 player mylo the previous day phase or something?"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Yes, but my point is that no lynching won't change anything. Either they no kill again and we're back here once more, or they kill you or I and we're in this position with less wisdom.In post 4697, Titus wrote:VOTE: No lynch - vote early night
Pine, if scum deliberately no killed, they want the game state like this.
I don't think Elbirn no kills and then stands on principle about no lynch.
Cabd cleared you ages ago.
It isn't me.
AJ is the only reasonable option, and I see it. I won't be voting no lynch.
VOTE: AJ"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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My best guess about the more recent no-kill is that one of you didn't want to eliminate one of us, because you were hoping we'd turn on one another, or at least disagree loudly. Hell, we haven't agreed on much this game except a mutual TR. AJ killing Elbirn or Elbirn killing AJ would result in the other immediately getting lynched.
This is why I shouldn't let my null pool go all game. Right from the very start, you two were the ones I couldn't grok."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Yeah, you're discarding the notion that the remaining Mafia member has some kind of PR in your balance assessments. I am also only 3-shot. Motion detector is an incredibly weak PR. Even if you discount me, Town is too strongly balanced against scum. I would wager that the final scum HAS to be a PR of some kind. Given that, the addition of a Roleblocker against two scum PRs is entirely sensible."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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You don't get it - the Normal review group is super Townsided right now. Final scum PR could easily be something as weak as a 2-shot Tracker, or as powerful as a JOAT or Doc.
Remember also that Traitor, especially with this setup, is a negative utility role for scum. It's even more of a hazard for scum than a Miller is for Town. Scum HAVE to have an additional PR, which means the Normal review group would insist on a pretty stacked Town."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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You are.
I feel like the first no kill was either an attempt to draw out claims or something. Either way it was an objective error, as no gain justifies lengthening the game when you're the only one left. This is why I've been thinking it was an inexperienced player like Sonia or Tywin. I'm not so sure now, though it may have something to do with their PR"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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No, I agree with your logic. I just need to do my own research. See, you'd say all of that whether you were Town or scum. I find in LYLO that it's easier to make the right decision by making a towncase rather than a scumcase.
If you're decided, go for it. It doesn't make a difference to me, from my perspective it's either you or him anyway."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Dude, I spent half the game frothing at the mouth over Tywin. I was on most of the Townie lynches and off the only scum lynch, whom I was TRing and actively defending. This is not a good game for me. Mutually TRing Titus was about the only good thing I did this game."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Yay I chose right!In post 4759, Elbirn wrote:Hi I'm town now"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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I didn't want to go back into night because Titus was the only person I was sure is Town, and therefore the only opinion I could trust. Going to night risks losing that insight. Also, 3v1 MYLO requires a unanimous vote against someone, whereas 2v1 LYLO just requires one Townie to vote the other.
Will address the rest when I get home"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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The case is made, from where I sit. Titus and I were pretty clearly kept alive to late game for our reads. Neither of us really suspected AJ, and our reads in general were just horrible. Tywin is a good example. Still kind of stunned on his flip. N7, Titus was kind of waffling, unpredictable, and I was leaning towards Elbirn. It all fits."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Mod specifically stated that CK knew the scumteam. Analyzing his ISO and interactions is absolutely informativeIn post 4790, Aj The Epic wrote:Well other than CK wasn't lynched yesterday... And it STILL doesn't make sense because CK was traitor so how scum interacted with him isn't even worth mentioning."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Explain why I do it.In post 4793, Aj The Epic wrote:Like please explain why I no kill the night before sonia was lynched.
Without using the bullshit argument that it was to get Sonia lynched. No-killing that day added a day cycle to the game. Getting a "free" mislynch at the expense of adding one mislynch needed is a null gain, all for the price of exposing my claim and risking a backfire."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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1. These things happen. I've actually noted that there is a trend lately, with scum actively trying to defeat VCA by either avoiding wagons or piling onto them unanimously. A good example happened recently in Hunger Games II, where we saw Town moving to mislynch someone we weren't pushing, and decided to step back, push vanity wagons, and let them do the work. Later in the game, they used VCA to accuse people on the mislynch wagon, and it was hard for them to believe that it was fully Town. As for me being on Lapsa, Lapsa was (I think) my only vote D1, and I was the first vote on him, during RVS. I didn't have a chance to coordinate with anyone.In post 4799, Elbirn wrote:
So this isn't a slip considering that tywin doesn't even breath pine's name day 1In post 4779, Pine wrote:Yeah, Tywin was actually voting for me for about a third of D1. But you can call that "mentioned like once"
Pushing on this as a slip was a shitty move from you aj, i knew it was shit even when I was drunk, I just wanted to let you two dig your own graves over it. 50 house points from Slytherin.
Basically the only reason aj is alive is this
1. Was the Lapsa wagon reaaallly entirely town except for traitor-cloud? No groupscum decided to push that?
2. Why does aj no kill the night before sonia's death-day? I can at least bullshit a notice from pine for that but why aj?
3. If pine is scum and I hammer aj I'm gonna have that smug asshole tywin yelling at me for the rest of time
2. Again, the question is valid for anyone. There's no good reason for either of us to do it. It's either a tactical error, a weird gambit that I'm not groking, or a rolecop identifying my role and hoping I would do exactly what I did.
3. Tywin is going to yell at all of us regardless of what happens. He's the kind of smug douche who can't conceive of the notion that someone else might interpret things differently.
I straightforwardly misread the quote, and thought that AJ was implying that Cloudkicker was ignoring me on D1, when in fact he was voting me for a good chunk of it.Elbirn wrote:
^ how does this not make sense? CK did in fact vote him for a third of day 1. Tywin didn't.In post 4779, Pine wrote:Yeah, CloudKicker was actually voting for me for about a third of D1. But you can call that "mentioned like once""Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Original:In post 4778, Aj The Epic wrote:No, not really. Just pointing out I did the exact same thing yesterday to lynch Tywin over Pine (aka looked at the fact scum never interacted with Tywin but did mention pine like once) and it turned out incorrect.
What I read, then meant when responding:In post 4779, Pine wrote:Yeah, Tywin was actually voting for me for about a third of D1. But you can call that "mentioned like once"In post 4778, Aj The Epic wrote:No, not really. Just pointing out I did the exact same thing yesterday to lynch Tywin over Pine (aka looked at the fact scum never interacted withCloudkickerbut did mention pine like once) and it turned out incorrect.
Have you never glanced at something while distracted and read something incorrectly?In post 4779, Pine wrote:Yeah,Cloudkickerwas actually voting for me for about a third of D1. But you can call that "mentioned like once"
Is this seriously what you're hinging this game on?"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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I'm not acting like I don't know what's up - you're scum, and I'm voting for you. I just think that pushing an obviously bullshit line of attack is ridiculous. Are you going for a 'too scummy to be scum' defense?"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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I really do love being the last man standing. It's a rare treat.In post 0, Cephrir wrote:Welcome.
Still enjoying the summer breeze (alive)
Pine,Mafia Goon
Not haunting the grounds, we swear (dead)
Lapsa,, lynched Day 1.Townie
Lil Uzi Vert,, killed Night 1.Town Vanilla Cop
CloudKicker,, killed Night 1.Mafia Loved Traitor
mozamis,, lynched Day 2.Town Mason
Cabd,, killed Night 2.Town Gunsmith
Nosferatu,, killed Night 2.Mafia Motion Detector
Gamma Emerald,, lynched Day 3.Townie
ssbm_Kyouko,, killed Night 3.Townie
Alisae,, killed Night 3.Town Vigilante
Nero Cain,, lynched Day 4.Mafia Goon
xSoniaNevermindx,, lynched Day 5.Townie
gerryoat,, killed Night 5.Town Mason Bodyguard
Tywin Lannister,, lynched Day 6.Townie
Titus,, killed Night 7.Townie
Aj The Epic,, lynched Day 8.Townie
Elbirn,, endgamed Day 8.Townie"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Bullshit. That no kill was inexcusable. The game should have been over with Tywin's lynch.In post 4830, Cabd wrote:Yeah... Great play by Pine"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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The second no kill was intentional, though. I didn't want to narrow down Town's choices. 3v1 MYLO requires unanimity, and I thought I'd be pretty invincible if it required all three of {Titus, AJ, Elbirn} to agree."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Yeah, this was not an easy endgame. All the way up to and including this -In post 4818, Elbirn wrote:Actually AJ I have a question for you.In post 4819, Aj The Epic wrote:Go ahead.In post 4820, Elbirn wrote:Are you town?
- I was worried that you were going to flip to AJ's side. Then I saw Ceph lock the thread and was holding my breath as I opened it. This was a nail-biter for me too.In post 4821, Aj The Epic wrote:Yes."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Yeah, I thought Tywin was pretty obvTown. The only thing against him, really, was the Cloudkicker analysis, which, to be frank, was pretty damning.
Alice had strong play. I was insane to find out whether he was SK or Vig. We should have tried to kill him immediately. My Alice-is-SK push was another of the several egregious errors I committed and somehow recovered from.
This. He was his own worst enemy.Aj The Epic wrote:My issue was that his polluting the thread with bullshit posts and basically being the most unreasonable person I've ever met in mafia was WIFOM enough to avoid a lynch, but then he CONTINUED IT after being town read. Had he actually tried to stop inciting Titus into attacking him it would've been much easier to see."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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@Cephrir I don't think our (mostly my) analysis of who might be the traitor was ill-conceived. Most people as traitor are not going to go out of their way to antagonize the scumteam, and CK voted for and/or attacked all three of us. He was one of the only people I was absolutely positive was not the Traitor."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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A few responses to dead thread discussion:
That explains things. You double-WIFOMed too well.In post 254, CloudKicker wrote:Btw anyone who read into my d1, i double wifomed hardcore and thats why i got killed by mefia
I was planning on something like that, but then realized I couldn't claim to have more shots and not block Tywin. Under than theory, Tywin would have been the only scum left, so I'd have to either block him or not have shots left.In post 368, ssbm_Kyouko wrote:imo pine claims he blocked whoever it was that was asking him if he was definitely only 3-shot RB and claims he pretended to be 3-shot in order to confuse scum, and say he chose to block them because they were trying to fish for if he could still block before deciding not to lynch him
Oh fuck no, definitely improvised as I wentIn post 371, mozamis wrote:so we assume that this all part of pines plan?
I couldn't bring Titus to LYLO because sheIn post 377, Alisae wrote:If Titus isn't being brought to Lylo, Pine loses.
If Titus is being brought to lylo, I hope she knows why Pine brought her to Lylo.definitelywould have suspected why she was being kept alive. Under the theory that Titus and I were strong Town mutually TRing each other, scum!AJ or scum!Elbirn couldn't afford to let us both make it to LYLO with them. I wanted Titus alive, which is why I no-killed before MYLO, but Town forced my hand.
See?In post 406, Titus wrote:Pine dies. I woulda lynched Pine if alive. I was TRing Elbrin due to mod error analysus. He had to be town.
Strong players are left alive until late game all the time, often due to the fact that their reads in that game are incorrect. You'll note that Titus made it to MYLO. With the theory that Titus and I were both Town, we'd been fucking up all game, mislynching and defending scum. There would have been no reason to kill us.In post 407, mozamis wrote:no one seriously suspected Pine all game.
HOWEVER, by now you gotta hope someone is gonna ask WHY IS PINE STILL ALIVE? They just gotta to have the humility to realise he is the strongest player, and why is a strong player left?
And this is the internet, where everyone is full of humility, so town are golden, kids!
Oh. Oh dear.
This is why no one likes you.In post 411, Tywin Lannister wrote:
There were never any lies. You are just an absolutely terrible town player. Your ego is far too big for your ability, and it showed. You got exposed for being bad.In post 403, Titus wrote:
I am not. That slot had to die before lylo with the lies and garbage he spewed.In post 400, Alisae wrote:Titus I'm sad that you still lynched Tywin ;~;
Pine made a mistake by not keeping you around, because you'd have quicklynched Elibrin the same way. You're so bad at the game and playing it properly that you have no concept of what you did wrong either.
I don't think the Townplay on this site is necessarily bad, I think the standard for scumplay on this site is high. I've noticed that most games where scum gets wrecked, it's due to scum fumbles. Aeronaut's Drunk Christmas Party is a recent example; scum fucked up hard, and Town caught it.In post 414, Nero Cain wrote:TBF, over the last few years I think alot of the new players have come from TOS or Epic Mafia....and its well known that town play is mostlty shit so Titus being considered good b/c she is loud isn't that surprising in the site state."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Like I said, not really. There was a lot of tapdancing and a lot of playing things by ear, and it was still close.In post 4865, Nero Cain wrote:good job Pine"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Oh yeah! That pissed me off at the time
I have some issues with setup. Town had a fuckton of power, scum had a negative utility, and motion detector has the possibility of being just as misleading as helpful."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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I mean, Traitor was instead of, not in addition to, the standard fourth team member for this number. And motion detector is -almost- like "why bother".
Don't get me wrong, I dig the idea of a Traitor done this way, but to call a spade a spade, it's a heavy handicap, and the fact that we killed ours N1 proves it.
PEdit: No no, you misunderstand. We won DESPITE the balance. This was heavily Townsided. I often defend mods and reviewers, but this is akin to that scene from Men of Honor, where the racist instructors slash a big hole in Cuba Gooding's toolbag before tossing it into the water. We were hamstrung from the start. Again, that's okay, but you ALSO chose to give Town a bunch of power. Either by themselves would be fine, both wasn't a fair shake."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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This is likely not a thing we will come to an agreement to you, so I will bow out of this thread with a respectful nod of the head to my worthy opponents in the Town, who made this game a very, very close thing indeed, and quite memorable.
[/Pine]"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
Act 3, Scene 1 ofJulius Caesar, by W. Shakespeare
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