Sid Meier's Civilization 5 UPick Mafia (GAME OVER)

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Dunkerdoodles
I also agree that the willingness to prod that lame anime-poster as the world leader is annoying. Anime posting should be looked down upon.

Very tempted to hop on and heal Elbirn, 'cus that guy is my bro and friend and I know he won't screw us.
I think it's really important that we try to keep the scum from ending up as leaders, because we can obscure game info (resolutions) from them. Or do you think they already know what all the resolutions are, given the whole informed minority schtick? Hm.

Die stolzen und illustren Menschen in Deutschland heißen Sie willkommen! Wir sind eine freundliche und friedliebende Nation, aber sei gewarnt, solltest du uns kreuzen, sei bereit, um Vergebung zu bitten, wenn wir dich unter der Macht unserer mächtigen Panzer vernichten!

Like, I can run this through Google translate and it's all gravy, but could we avoid using languages other than English in this game?

[Varsoon]

I think it's really important that we try to keep the scum from ending up as leaders

Game-breaking analysis right here.

VOTE: Varsoon

It's almost as if I insinuated you were scum and that I couldn't trust you as our leader AND that your anime gimmick is really lame--did you take that all to heart and get so peeved you had to come back swatting?

VOTE: Kokichi

[Varsoon]

Is there a list of resolutions? Like in the base game...

A list of resolutions will be provided once a Congress Host has been selected.

What will the list look like (how much info will it contain on the actual effects of each resolution)?
As far as I understand, the winners of World Congress will get to know the effects of all the resolutions and then they'll each prop one up for everyone to publicly vote on. Is that correct?

[Varsoon]

It's almost as if I insinuated you were scum and that I couldn't trust you as our leader AND that your anime gimmick is really lame--did you take that all to heart and get so peeved you had to come back swatting?

Also, the irony of this post is that my avatar is from a game, not anime. Had I posted an image of Alexander the Great. You wouldn't have had an issue. But, it's interesting. You never really stated why you think I'm scum. Tell me.

Dang Ole Ron Paul has an anime, homie. Furthermore, your character is from a visual novel game, which is, perhaps, even more anime-derivative.
I'm not over here posting pictures of K acting like a cheeser.

Spoiler:

And I did state (VERY OBVIOUSLY BECAUSE I AM SCUM, RIGHT?) why you're scum and why I'm voting you. Guess you can't even pick up on obvious stuff?
I'll say it again:
I can not trust you, especially as leader. Why? Because you self-voted for leader IMMEDIATELY in a game where those votes can't be taken back.
I do not like the anime gimmick. Or VN Gimmick. Really, it's an avatar-posting gimmick. Why does that make you scum? It's a common distancing/fluff tactic that propels the game rhetoric into obnoxious roleplay--it does nothing to help gamesolve. As a moderator and frequent player on-site, I've seen that sort of posting reflect scum and anti-town mentalities time and time again.
I do not like your retaliatory vote on me. You're actively bashing setup spec in a game with public mechanics, which is anti-town at least. Maybe it's OBVIOUS to you, but I'm working with a limited set of information. If anything, your scumflip would confirm to me that scum DON'T have knowledge of all/any of the resolutions because it's 'obvious' to you that we should keep scum for gaining that knowledge. Another big part of this is that dunkerdoodles was supporting you for leader out the gate and I voted him, but you returned to vote for me, which comes off heavily like a chainsaw, especially if you're both scum gambiting around just propelling lots of early congress votes/momentum onto your side.


So, you reveal yourself to be much more likely to be scum than literally any player that had posted by literally page 2, and you prove that your flip would provide a lot of good info. Why the fuck would I not vote you?

Stay chump-mode, anime LOSER.

[Varsoon]

As far as who to make leader, I wish there was more Elbirn posting to go off of, but now it feels like he's in an appeal zone where I'd have to be extra critical of everything.
I think that there's probably some link between Joey's garbage vote on me and their support of Kokicheese. As you can likely tell, I am not a fan of that dude being anywhere near our leader. We should specifically make sure he doesn't even get second place.
People have been talking about Titus and I'm like, eh I dunno. Titus tends to get game-controlling when she has a lot of power/setup knowledge, regardless of alignment, and I think it'd make it much harder for me to figure out the slot.

[Varsoon]

Now he props up self-meta while simultaneously dishing out a "you're town" appeasement to A50.
Trash.

[Varsoon]

It's anti-town, then, not NAI. And my read is based on far more than your gimmick.
Other people self-voted only AFTER you did and AFTER you set a precedent for it.

[Varsoon]

If anything, their self votes serve as a means of driving momentum away from you, so I'm far more fine with the other self-votes.

[Varsoon]

I'm not sure where I bashed public mechanics at all. Can you show me?

You voted me and called me out for discussing 'the obvious' when it came to the setup. Making sure everyone is on the same ground level of mechanics comprehension in a game with important public mechanics is incredibly important, but you were quick to jump down my throat for that.

I'm very lost on what you're trying to ask in the next two questions. Use some proper nouns.

[Varsoon]

UNVOTE:

I think I'm getting where you're coming from a bit more now, especially given you don't seem to think of what I was discussing as mechanics but instead independent game rhetoric. On one hand, I'm tempted to read your townread on me as appeasement (which would be in line with what you did to A50, too), but I'm also not sure scum would stick their neck out quite so far and probe with quite as many questions as you have. Mostly, right now, you just seem lost, and that doesn't feel scum to me. The amount of people giving you townreads without justifying them doesn't sit great with me, and I'll get more on that in a bit, I suppose.

Kokichi is actually my best vote for town, too, based on his string of posts. i can go into detail... later. if i feel like it.
Varsoon's behaviour towards him is really not something i agree with. i don't think Kokichi's done anything to warrant it. but it does point somewhat towards a town Varsoon.

I'd really like it if you would, because I'm not totally seeing it, myself, and I thought Kokichi's early play was awful.

@Gamma:

You said I was tunneling Kokichi despite it being, what, D1, page 5? Eat my shorts, dude.
Who do you think I should've been interacting with more, if not the guy who looked incredibly scummy AND WHO WAS VOTING ME AND SELF-VOTING FOR CONGRESS LEADER?
I can link you to at least a handful of games where I've tunneled (way harder, mind you) as town. Me tunneling and playing like shit is NAI, and this isn't even tunneling, so I'm really confused on why you're throwing so much shade.
VOTE: GammeEmerald

P-EDIT:
As I said, to build momentum towards you being leader. My reaction would be to play it cool and cheerlead myself so I could at least keep momentum and hit second place, if not first.
I imagine the only thing keeping all the scum from just backing the same candidate is that it'd be really obvious if they all piled on.

[Varsoon]

Oh, so, to be sure my reading comprehension hasn't gone out the window entirely, that means that the people we vote for leader don't get any extra setup knowledge we won't get?
If so, no reason to fret too much.

[Varsoon]

I always think roleplay is a distraction and a distancing technique more than anything else.
Some people call it 'fun', but I don't know what that is, I think.
I almost made Porkens replace out of Maplewood village because the roleplay was getting too annoying for me and made it impossible to read the slot. He was town and while I was a 3p survivor, I was playing to a town wincon.

P-EDIT:
Shiiiiiiiiiiit I left this to post last night but never did and there's a ton of posts. This is a response to Bujaber's 262.

[Varsoon]

@GE: Someone would ask eventually, my guy. It also establishes that it's pretty much NAI for me since it's something I genuinely do regardless of alignment and that I know is a bias I have that has led me to persecute other town players.

HEAL: Elbirn

Honestly think Elbirn's a better candidate for this than any of the other proposed ones.

[Varsoon]

Why Elbirn, Vasoon? Also I have a question addressed to you earlier in the thread. Also, why are you still voting Gamma? Who else is scum?

Elbirn's definitely town, given how he's played this. I don't agree with his backing of Kokichi and I'd feel way more comfortable with Elbirn in the 2 people deciding things than anyone else because I feel he'd actually make democratic decisions rather than ones based on just what he wants. Apologies for missing your previous question, lemme get to that. It helps to bold things. I have a bad habit of skimming hard sometimes or missing posts entirely. I couldn't tell you who else is scum, but Gamma's still my best lead for who may be. When you stay 'still voting Gamma'--did Gamma do anything to exonerate himself or make himself really obviously town?

Here is my question. If you felt Koki was scum, why did you choose Dunk as your vote instead of Koki at the time?

When I voted, I thought Dunk was scum propping a candidate more than I was scumreading Koki. When Koki came out hot at me, I felt Koki was for sure scummier and we'd get way better info of a Koki lynch.

@GE: Someone would ask eventually, my guy. It also establishes that it's pretty much NAI for me since it's something I genuinely do regardless of alignment and that I know is a bias I have that has led me to persecute other town players.

What is this responding to of mine?

When you asked why I mentioned what faction Porkens and I were in Maplewood.
You also asked me to elaborate on Kokichi but I've pretty much said entirely everything that informed my read there at different points. If you don't like it, I guess you can lynch me for it, idk.

Varsoon, I'd like you to expand on your Gamma read. From an outside view it just looks like 2 OMGUS votes so far.

You really do like using the 'from and outside view' as a phrase a lot, don't you?
I mostly don't like Gamma's criticisms and his play feels really lackluster to me. He's quoting a lot of things but not really saying all that much. I feel like a lot of his criticism of me doesn't really justify a scumread on me at all, like it's lacking venom and just kind of stating facts of my play or asking me to elaborate more while voting me. Like the scumread on me is arbitrary.

[Varsoon]

@Varsoon

Elbirn's definitely town, given how he's played this. I don't agree with his backing of Kokichi and I'd feel way more comfortable with Elbirn in the 2 people deciding things than anyone else because I feel he'd actually make democratic decisions rather than ones based on just what he wants.

1. Why am I definitely town? What have I done that warrants that?

2. Did you not come around on a townread of kokichi? Why don't you want him as host?

1. You didn't know the mechanics, scum-you would, and I don't buy it's a gambit.
You voted for Dunkerdoodles.
Dropout from the 'host race' doesn't make sense from a scum PoV
You walked away from the Dunkerdoodles vote and then put stock in Kokichi for leader.

No way scum does all that.
Plus I like you.
Bros4life

2. I don't think Kokichi is scum but I also don't trust them as leader. It's that simple. My townread of them comes from understanding them as a player who doesn't see eye-to-eye with my game reality.

[Varsoon]

Well, I'm scum and I didn't catch that 'cus I'm bad at catching crumbs, so thanks, sucker.

[Varsoon]

@Elbirn:
1. Why are you so adamant to argue me down from believing in you?
If my rationale for doing so is flawed, so be it, but it doesn't change the fact that I still do.
Others didn't handle the mechanics perma-vote bit quite like you did and if you were trying to garner towncred, you wouldn't step down in the ways you did, either.
Scum-Elbirn doesn't proclaim himself God Emperor as a joke, then goes "Whoops, gotta stick to that meme now" then steps back from that and vouches for Kokichi. I just don't believe that.

2. I think he's town but not that he'll make decisions that are best for town. And, ay, if our leader 'ratfucks' us, we can just lynch them, right?
I feel that Kokichi would drive the decision towards choices I don't like.
I don't want you as leader for skill. I want you as leader because I know you're capable of assessing town wants/needs and pushing through on resolutions that will pass that will benefit us. You're a player that I know I can emphasize with, who will actually respond and listen to me and that we can hit a point of mutual understanding, which isn't what I can say for Kokichi.

[Varsoon]

I felt that way a bit about Gamma at first, but the more I read him, the more I also realized he is the perfect candidate to FOS and not get heat from doing that. He'splaying like the typical guy you can leave a vote on and not get attacked for it. So I dunno, I think he might be lynch bait for D1.

I'm really curious what you see that makes you think he's D1 lynchbait. Can you go more into that? I think he's playing what he feels is a competent game, but I don't really see it as a town game. B-sides, I've also caught some votes afterwards, too, so I think I've gotten a little heat for my meat.

WHY DID NO ONE TOLD ME BRASS WAS CONF TOWN WHILE I WAS REREADING.

Sorry should have made you host.

Now I get why you are mad at me, and now I get not to make votes or posts before fully catching up.

Also im lame

Yeah, if only someone like the mod made a post about it. I'd be more critical if Venmar had sent out a PM about this game-changing revelation (not common for ICs confirming, though) or, at least, updated the first post to reflect Brass' IC status. Still, dude, why were you making UNCHANGABLE VOTES before a full catchup?


Also:

@Brass:

I get you were going for a slayer's gambit, but did you get any worthwhile info from it? What do you feel about Joey's constant pushes at your crumbing? Also, why not just reveal IC earlier in a game where people can't take back their world congress votes? I'd say you're fine with how you played it, but, obviously, players can still vote differently and feign IC ignorance because they were 'catching up'.

[Varsoon]

people who can go

nero
gamma
almost50
klazam
creature

im town ama

I don't think I could even tell you what Klazam has done at all this game.
Why the scumread there?

@Pidgey:

Don't beat yourself up too much over it, guy.
You also have a Klazam scumread and seem really confident on it (even if your general mixing things up does make me less confident in your capability to catch scum, but, ay, at least it feels like genuine "I fucked up" and owning up to it rather than manufactured scum gambiting garbage), can you explain why Klazam is scum? Because, if it weren't for that name showing up on page a few times, I wouldn't even be able to tell you he's a player in this game.

[Varsoon]

Ay, fuggit.
VOTE: Klazaam

[Varsoon]

Dude's a non-presence 25 pages in
Don't like the self vote
Don't like the 'real vote' on Bujaber
Don't like his pre-occupation with host stuff and little else.
Don't like that he gives Bujaber a thumbs-up for a good post but keeps his vote there without explaining why.
Don't like him playing off that the host stuff doesn't really matter D1 when IT GIVES BONUS DELEGATES AND ALSO WE HAVE A FRIGGIN IC

[Varsoon]

Wagon's good and all, but folks also need to put votes on Brass for World Congress.

[Varsoon]

Varsoon if you had any problem with me outing the pr read on Brass then why didn’t say anything after i outed said post instead of making a “sarcastic” post.

You are also misrepping directly to the clear claiming that i was “constantly” pushing the role read etc when actually it was a single post and after brass basically claimed pr himself.

Hey man, you outted Brass, you're not gonna rolefish me, too.
You're the dude who was pushing a scumread hard on the fuckin' IC.

For some reason I thought you had made comments about brass' 'four or five' crumbs before that post, but turns out my memory is garbage--sorry for misreppin' ya.
Sarcastic posts can serve plenty of purpose, too. Kokichi'd jump down my throat if I made an 'obvious' post like, "Hey, dickhead, don't out someone's PR crumbs."

[Varsoon]

Allow me to part the kimono a bit here:
A large part of the reason that I always keep a tab open and stay up to date on my games is because I don't take notes, I have a garbage memory, and when there's more than a single page of text left for me, I skim very hard and miss lots of details.

[Varsoon]

Holy crap actually someone on this site aknowleding that they made an error over arguing on semantics and omgusing. I will give it the botd UNVOTE:

Sa'll good. I appreciate you being critical of that stuff, because that's usually what I tend to do--I really can't deal with when someone's representation of the game isn't how I see the game, and that sort of disparity tends to inform my scumreads.

Why were you so sure Brass was scum, though? Sorry if you explained it already, I'd rather see it now than go ISO digging.

[Varsoon]

@Joey:

Oh, that makes sense, given he was going for a slayer's sort of gambit thing. That's the inherit issue with that gambit--trying to look scummy to attract votes doesn't just mean you're attracting scum votes. So it's important to be able to differentiate who is town and voting there versus who is scum and voting there. I feel like you're probably more likely town than not for voting it if only because you figured something fishy/wagon related was gonna happen and you stuck with it anyway.

That said,

@Brass:

Dunno if you got back to me or whatever, but did you figure anything out from your attempt at gambiting around IC? iirc you didn't have anything conclusive, but I could be wrong and also you've had more time to think on it now.

[Varsoon]

Why Dunker for scum?

And what are the townreads/why? I'm having issues sinking my teeth into this setup, so any bit of insight is nice.

If ya don't wanna share for -reasons-, I can get that, I guess.
I also think the World Congress play is probably for the best, yes.

[Varsoon]

So, I've been sitting on a discovery I made for awhile now, and if I told you, it might tilt a bit of your reads and also help you to understand why I'm finding Klazam so scummy.
The problem is that I could be wrong since I'll be able to tell more clearly once we've got more mod-confirmed info like flips.

[Varsoon]

@Mod: Do scum have daychat?

[Varsoon]

So, nobody actually solved my riddle, or even tried! Nice!

...you posted a riddle?

[Varsoon]

Any town that we make leader would be a likely NK target, Kokichi. All the same, any host we put up might be able to pull protectives, too.

[Varsoon]

Aaaaah, I'm just gonna post this and hope I'm right. I've been debating it because I think that if I am wrong and we make these setup assumptions, it could really kick us in the ass.

I was thinking a lot about what's keeping scum from just completely gaming the delegates, especially considering the snowballing that happens if scum manage to get multiple delegates.
As an earlier post of mine implies, I figured it was initially just a balance point of either scum knowing resolutions already (no info to be gained from being a world leader) or that a lot of scum voting a world leader in would be very obvious.
I then realized that it's much more likely the setup is multiball and that scum teams are only two or three players. Why's that?

1. What really tipped me off was the non-specificity of my role PM and the opening posts in regards to a 'scum team'. There's mention of eliminating 'all threats to town', but that's it.
2. I thought for sure the 'all threats to town' was an absolute nod to the game being multiball because of the wording, but after digging Venmar's mod-meta, I've discovered:
--a) Venmar uses the same wording even in his singleball setups with exclusion of an open setup he ran way back in 2012.
--b) Out of over 5 different setups of Venmar's design, only one of them was singleball entirely.
3. Given the flavor of the theme (multiple civilizations forming alliances, the fact people often play multiple 'teams', the multiple wincons in the game that different civs shoot for, etc.), there are several avenues to make this a multiball game
4. Singleball would actually make the World Congress mechanic unbalanced in favor of scum.
5. If anti-town factions have daychat, then there's NO WAY that the game is singleball, because the amount of co-ordination a full-size singular scumteam could do in this kind of setup with daychat would make the world leader mechanic almost pointless for town. However, if there are multiple smaller teams, daychat makes a lot more sense. I did not check Venmar's previous games to see if daychat was normal in his setups, but I do recall there being encryptors in the setup.

I had this revelation awhile back, between posts 100 and 200, because I had a pretty dynamic shift in how I was viewing the game/mechanics by 226 and forward.
Assuming multiball, we should be a lot more critical of the people who are laying low and self-voting, like Klazaam, because in multiball:
1. Scum players are likelier to self-vote and get a partner to boost them.
2. Scum players are likelier to avoid voting people they don't have a hard townread on because they need to avoid the other scum team become leader, too.
2. Scum players are likelier to lay low and not draw a lot of attention to themselves because they don't want to catch a cross-kill because cross-kills are what makes scum lose very fast in multiball.

This is why I townread Elbirn so hard, because he self voted but didn't seem aware of the mechanics all that much, then voiced support for Kokichi, who is not likely to be on the same scumteam as him if he was scum--if Elbirn were scum aware of multiball, he'd be way more hesitant to couch support of someone with some votes on them already. Furthermore, Elbirn's opening posts draw a lot of attention to him, imo, and wouldn't make sense coming from a multiball scum player PoV.

[Varsoon]

The existence of the IC also leans me a bit more towards this being multiball, too, ftr.

[Varsoon]

I think it's more likely that there's just multiple NKs present.

[Varsoon]

I think it's more likely that there's just multiple NKs present.

It's possible, I could see a SK actually. I'm not too sold on 2 mafia, and I don't think it's really needed to be discussed right now until we see night kills.

I've explained why it's important to consider right now.

I think the setup is either: 14-3-3-1 (bulletproof SK, lots of town power, protectives in scum/town), 15-3-3, or 15-2-2-2 or something similar to that.

Not a huge fan of you undermining the IC.

[Varsoon]

As a mod who's run IC in my games, I think the best IC shot is as early as possible, especially in multiball.
The longer you sit on it, the higher your chance of it being a completely useless or even NEGATIVE UTILITY role (if you are killed). I've seen town vig shoot an un-used IC.
Having the IC out on D1 helps town co-ordinate PR use far better than any benefit scum get from it. Furthermore, it gives us a leg-up when it comes to early World Congress.

[Varsoon]

I think the World Congress is a much more elegant mechanic in multiball as well, because it could really cause some kills to both end up on world leaders that are town.
I'm curious how much thought Venmar put into it, hm.

[Varsoon]

No, Joey, you don't understand
If there ARE multiple teams and more than one of them tries to kill Brass, then we end up with less dead town than we would have otherwise.
Alternatively, scum avoid Brass, which makes it more likely that they cross-kill and easier for us to win.
Making Brass world leader is pretty much a win/win. Only way it doesn't work out is if
1. The setup isn't multiball, but I've already outlined why it's got to be unless we're screwed when it comes to world congress anyway
2. The different teams/SK manage to all co-ordinate such that only one kill ends up on Brass.

[Varsoon]

If we nominate a town block of about 5-6 people who will receives the most of the delegates for the coming days, if they get killed off they will keep somewhat of a head-start to keep the snowball effect, so town can get more delegates to give it to town and so on. It keeps the WL and 2nd runner up at least in town hands (if we have half decent reads, its not hard to find 4-5 obvious town slot in a 20p setup)

Also why assuming multiball is important because it entirely changes what you can reasonably townread someone for.
Normally, the difference between scum faking scumhunting versus town actually doing it can be pretty easy to pick up on, but in multiball, scum is legitimately hunting scum, so a lot of the ways you'd read alignment from players doesn't work the same.

[Varsoon]

I don't think that number 2 is that unlikely to happen even if they dont coordinate and its just by chance. Also theres the obvious off-chance that only one of those team have the "tools" to assure that brass is getting killed (strongarm) which means that said team will probably be the only one trying to make the kill, anyway i understand your point but it wasn't really what i was trying to get to.

I wanted to find a way to keep the delegates in town hands by electing a block to receives the delegates day after day

So what? We force a prisoner's dilemma situation on scum.
If one happens to have a strongarm/strongman, then it's very likely not unlimited use, so them having to burn a use just to get rid of our IC sounds like a win to me.

I do think that we can keep delegates in town hands, but the best place to start is with the confirmed town player, no?

[Varsoon]

I'm glad it stalled hard so that we could figure out World Leader votes. I'm critical of Marshy for trying to make it gain a lot of momentum--moreso because, in multiball, he wouldn't have as much of team to propel it. If anyone's scum on that wagon, I'm thinking it's him. That said, if it's multiball, there's a good chance that Klazam is just scum anyway and could be a different team than Marshy, so I'll still take the Klazam lynch because it's better info.

[Varsoon]

Maaan, I have this huge revelation that the game is multiball and I was so conflicted about if sharing it would help or hinder the way we engaged with reads and things, but most people aren't even addressing it.



P-EDIT:
Yaaaay Chara
<3

[Varsoon]

does this mean i can have the pizza you just dropped. <3

honestly, most of that besides the Venmar mod-meta went over my head. i struggle to understand why this mechanic is overpowered for singleball, but i also don't really know how big of an impact these resolutions are going to have on the game. we haven't seen any yet. i believe it, though.

pedit: Almost, exploding threads are more fun! :>

Yes! Though I am eating pizza IRL right now

Consider: With 21 players, setup singleball balance is usually 15 town, 6 scum or 16 town, 5 scum. Usually if it's 6 scum, then one'll be a traitor or something. Anyway, let's assume 5 scum on one team, then.
All five scum back one of the scum as a candidate, right?
Now that person has 5 votes for them and town has 15 votes of their own to lobby around
What are the chances TWO townies BOTH get over 5 votes?
It's pretty low considering it's hard to build trust.
If anything, played right, the scum getting voted by his buddies could amass way more than just those 5, too!
And then what happens? If he's leader, he gets an extra delegate
Then let's say a townie is lynch and scum kill another townie
Now it's Day 2 and town has 14 players alive, 14 votes total and scum now has 6 votes!!
This happens again and on day 3, town's looking at 12 votes total against scum's 7 votes--now scum can always assure that one of their members is at least runner up, no matter what.

Yes, the public nature of it would allow town to lynch scum if it became too obvious, but from a purely mechanical standpoint, the mechanic is not balanced in town's favor if the scumteam is large.
However, consider the same with two or three smaller scumteams
All of a sudden, it's much more balanced!

[Varsoon]

the point of a wagon is to lynch or create pressure. yes i want to put momentum towards it so something can HAPPEN in this game and generate more info/reads

besides

>joins me on wagon
>makes a CASE for the wagon
>shits on the guy who started it

lol @ this guy

Hahaha, please don't try to greentext here, it's unbecoming.
Oh, didn't realize you were voting there before me, thought you put a vote down and did the whole choo choo thing after I voted.
Still, I'm mostly criticizing the whole choo-choo momentum thing. I even was asking to stall it at the time, remember?
I'm all for Klazam as scum, as I said, but I also think that, given multiball, I should be critical of you as well.
Like, if Klazam flips and is on one team, you could easily be on the other, and it'd make plenty of sense for you to want to jam through the wagon if one of your teammates was currently doing well in the World Congress, too.

[Varsoon]

I can’t decide if Varsoon’s recent contributions feel more like town trying to analyze, or scum that has at minimum a pretty good idea that it is multiball and is trying to communicate to the other team.

Thoughts from my townread friends?

Oh, lol, if I wanted to communicate to the other scumteam, I wouldn't be subtle, I'd just be like:

Red team, don't kill the IC--we're taking care of that.

[Varsoon]

Nothing is scummy about jockeying for votes on a wagon normally, but it could be, circumstantially, and definitely in the face of making the IC world congress leader.
But you get my point, yeah?

[Varsoon]

I can’t decide if Varsoon’s recent contributions feel more like town trying to analyze, or scum that has at minimum a pretty good idea that it is multiball and is trying to communicate to the other team.

Thoughts from my townread friends?

Oh, lol, if I wanted to communicate to the other scumteam, I wouldn't be subtle, I'd just be like:

Red team, don't kill the IC--we're taking care of that.

And this could 100% be you taking the chance to communicate “as a joke”. Gross. If you’re town this is at best being purposefully antagonistic towards my ability to read you, and anti-town.

OR IF I AM TOWN I JUST ENSURED RED TEAM WON'T SHOOT AT OUR IC I THINK THAT'S PRETTY USEFUL MAYBE

Jesus, Shaz, get with the program.

[Varsoon]

I was the one, it was me who said you were pre-occupied with host stuff a lot, especially for someone who had such low content otherwise and had already self-voted.

[Varsoon]

Don't have much more to say besides what I've already said on it. 614's a pretty no-fluff elaboration.

[Varsoon]

Also, read my bit on the setup likely being multiball, which is what informs a lot of why I think all of that play is scummy, too.

[Varsoon]

Wait, varsoon, i said it didnt matter BEFORE the IC outed. Thats a important point, i feel.

The rest still stands.

[Varsoon]

Angkor wat, even.

[Varsoon]

>Varsoon is speculating about multiball

REEEEEEEEEEEE

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Varsoon

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Speculating?
It's a fact, Elbirn. No way with Venmar's mod meta does he make this singleball.

[Varsoon]

>Varsoon is speculating about multiball

REEEEEEEEEEEE

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Varsoon

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Speculating?
It's a fact, Elbirn. No way with Venmar's mod meta does he make this singleball.

Sure. Why does town-varsoon care?

Dude, maybe read my posts.

[Varsoon]

I literally explain why it's an important consideration, why the mechanic is something scum would want control over, and how, by design, this setup is very likely to be multiball.

I'm not going to repeat myself, just actually read my posts this time.
I'm not introducing some epic level of wifom, either. I could see how you'd have that argument against me if I was using multiball spec to try to guide wagons in ways they weren't going, but that's not the case at all.
When this game is confirmed as multiball, you can apologize for doubting me.

[Varsoon]

If it's a play that has no intrinsic town motivation to it, then why, as scum, would I do it? Wouldn't I want to do 'town motivated' things as scum?

That's what WIFOM looks like.

I'm also not speculating, either. I'm declaring that it is definitely multiball for the reasons I laid out and that our considerations of how to play around the public mechanic and how to read certain plays should be tailored towards that fact.
I'm very confident that it'll be confirmed as multiball after N1, regardless.
I'm also trying to express the way that I am seeing the setup so that people understand my thought process a little better.
Consider if I continued to play privately assuming multiball but not saying so--that'd be confusing for people.

If anything, your attempts to throw shade on the whole thing reek of scum who wants to keep town in the dark and have them keep playing in a way that's not fit for solving the actual game at hand. I don't get why you're so critical of this. Townreads on me make plenty of sense, too, so I don't get where your confusion is coming from there--I'm sharing the way I am approaching the game, giving clarity to how I'm proceeding, making reading my slot more transparent for town and, for scum, it makes sense to townread me because they KNOW it's multiball.

[Varsoon]

Scum benefit way more by keeping multiball hidden from town--it lets them gambit claiming vigilante rather than a second scum kill and it keeps town from gamesolving efficiently. I see your attempts to discredit my discovery as 'speculation' as anti-town. I don't comprehend how you could disagree with certain points on the game design only making sense as a multiball setup given what we know about the public mechanics.

[Varsoon]

Then just take it only as a consideration rather than an absolute until it's mod-confirmed.

I don't know your experience with mafia, but I've never designed or seen a game where scum were unaware a setup was multiball. It's usually pretty obvious when you see your team is only two or three people in a 21p setup.

It's good for scum to get the extra votes. To actually 'control' it would take a degree of rhetorical prowess that'd likely reflect scum winning the game independent of the mechanic anyway.
I already explained how it's lean-scum in singleball due to how easy it would be for scum players to amass enough extra delegates to ensure the resolutions and congress leaders they want always get into power after only a few days.
I don't think it'd be something as obvious as all the scum clearly dogpiling votes on a single candidate on their own team, but more along the lines of scum being able to build lots of vote momentum for candidates that will only benefit them (people they know they can control. kill, influence, etc.) and against candidates they know are trouble for them.

There's not a bigger chance for town to vote scum in multiball for world congress because the total amount of scum would be the same. Yes, you could end up in a situation where both world congress leaders are on different scumteams, but the same situation could happen much easier for two scum on the same team in a singleball setup. Consider one scum 'running against' the other, ending up with town splitting their votes between the two and scum secretly doing so as well to make those candidates seem like the clear-cut ones to vote between. That's way more likely to happen with a single scumteam rather than multiple smaller ones.

[Varsoon]

Well, at the very least, if this is confirmed as multiball, I don't think that you've been feigning that sort of ignorance and you're more likely town due to it.

[Varsoon]

That whole Varsoon/BuJab convo was pointless. Who cares about setup spec right now. Find mafia and give reasons. The longer that goes on the more anti town it is.

You might think it's pointless but I got a pretty informed TR on Bujaber out of it.

[Varsoon]

Caught up now.
I know some people asked me questions, but I feel like my posts already answered them. :/
I hate repeating myself.
Also, I just realized something probably real important

@Mod: Do extra delegates gained through World Congress remain between phases of the game?
For instance, if PLAYER1 was elected leader of World Congress and got an extra delegate, would they still have two delegates on Day 2 or Day 3?
Other questions:
Is it possible for people to get extra delegates through means not via the World Congress?

If delegate stacking isn't a thing at all, then we could probably let just about anyone in the position, since it's still a democratic process to decide which resolutions pass.
That said, I'm sure scum get some factional bonus or some shit for being world leaders. There has to be some incentive.

[Varsoon]

@MOD: Do extra delegates gained through World Congress remain between phases of the game? For instance, if PLAYER1 was elected leader of World Congress and got an extra delegate, would they still have two delegates on Day 2 or Day 3?

The extra delegate(s) from being selected as Host of the World Congress for a given Day are tied to the player's role as Host, not the player. There is a new Host selection every Day, and the number of delegates attached to the role of Host increases as the Day phases go on, as do the number of delegates players get automatically. Does that answer your question?

Other questions:
Is it possible for people to get extra delegates through means not via the World Congress?

This will not be answered.

So, if I understand this, then on later days, the host of the World Congress, once voted in, will receive extra votes so long as they are host?
At the start of Day 2, though, will there be a host? I'm curious what the World Congress votes will look like moving forward, but I understand if some of that info is role-related rather than public.

[Varsoon]

Okay, that makes sense. I was confused about how the Host's bonus votes worked.

So it's not AS detrimental, but the numbers I calc'd still fit the bill so long as scum can maintain host-hood and everything else stays constant.

[Varsoon]

So what's going on?

[Varsoon]

It is awkward that the world congress mechanic does make lurkers come into the spotlight like that.
I guess we have no way of majority voting in brass at this point without the lurkers doing it?

[Varsoon]

I'd prefer Elbirn over Titus, but I'd take either over Kokichi.

[Varsoon]

Creature and Kiana sneak your votes for me. Let's make this Civilization great again.

See--that's why I don't like this guy.

[Varsoon]

I guess *trust* is the more accurate word.

[Varsoon]

I'm cool with a ban on gold, for what it's worth.
Dunno what 'peacekeeping Brasherald' is but that's probably a good thing.
Dunno what 'Sciences funding' is, but seems like it'd benefit certain players and hinder others like it does in the video game so eeeeh.
Everything about 'Embargo Kokchi' sounds good to me!

Also,

Spoiler: For Elbirn:

Wow! I didn't think people remembered my old games. Though, I thought for sure you were gonna conjure the trust-tell stuff I did since I've been saying I'm scum here.
Anyway, we are soul brothers and it's cool if you don't trust me or whatever. If you're scum, just convince your team not to kill me, k? Thanks~~
I really do think you're town, though, and my setup spec is genuine work here, too. I hope I'm right on both fronts.

[Varsoon]

It's snowing so bad that I'm off of work today, rejoice!

@Varsoon, I don't even remember the trust tell from way back when. Was it that you always truthfully claimed your alignment? I don't think you'd do that anymore considering you got shit for it + that's super not cool bro.

Yeah I really dunno how to read you. Like, ur my brodawg. I'd protecc you with my life if I think you're town. And I don't think we've been town together yet so I'm hoping you are, and I worry that might be causing bias on my part. Like if you're scum that would kill me, yaknow?

If I was scum, it would literally kill you, because I'd have to do that to achieve wincon.
Yeah, it was me who always truthfully claimed alignment, thus making the mods have to literally make it a rule not to trust-tell after banning me for it.
I dunno how to read me, either. From left to right, I gotta assume.
Just ran the numbers and you're in the top 8 frequent players of my games with 5 of 'em under your belt. That's pretty cool.

[Varsoon]

Did everyone decide kokichi is scum in the past 20 pages because I like him

I have a hard townread on him but I don't trust him at all.

[Varsoon]

May have misread this in my catchup but Dunker was wondering why Kokichi was playing different/not roleplaying and I think I kinda browbeat Kokichi away from it but then they quickly jumped back to doing it to appease Dunker
I just don't like how obviously they try to curry favor like that.
I guess when someone gives me a big opportunity to look town to them, I throw it back in their face and claim scum, so playing to anyone's tune but mine is just so against my general ethos that I can't help but distrust Kokichi.

[Varsoon]

everything Kokichi is doing just feels so natural to me. his timing and his consistent pressing on everything and the

why

of those pushes and assertions all seem to be very clear, and i'm not really seeing any obvious attempts to curry favour. and the little roleplaying that's there is all game-related.
it's mildly notable he isn't doing the Kokichi thing very much, but i don't know if it means anything considering how much roleplay is connected to thread environment and not alignment.

It took me awhile but I definitely see him playing from a town PoV, but it's so drastically different in approach and ethos from my own that I don't like it at all.

[Varsoon]

Yeah, they're both characters from the same game.

[Varsoon]

It's the same way you know your own child is your child but you don't trust them enough to leave them in the house alone.

Okay, maybe a more apt analogy is that there have always been people that have townread me but would not trust me to lead town. Does that make sense?

[Varsoon]

@Varsoon, Do you think I should science boost brass myself elbrin or you?

Oh, are those your only options?
If so, I can kinda figure why, and that makes sense.
Boosting me would be really cool, though I have no idea what it could entail.
That said, I kinda feel like I've been painting a big target on my back all day, so, /shrugs.
I think giving me the boost might be good, but since I have literally no clue what it does, I hope it's a good thing?
It's kinda a weird thing where I know my role and how it might influence my role, but since I don't know either of your roles, I couldn't say for sure.
If I am gonna be killed tonight, it might be a waste, but then, anyone you boost might just be killed, so eeeeh, throw it on me. I'm sure I can catch a protect. People like me. Right?

[Varsoon]

HEAL: Ban: Silk
Since there's no reason to vote for Peacekeep on brass since it's already got a few votes and only a madman would vote against it.

[Varsoon]

That's really second-level thinking, Bujaber.
You'll never catch first or third level scum that way.

[Varsoon]

This is to say:
Some scum will want to look scummy.
Some scum will expose their partners entirely or won't defend them at all.
Some scum do not care about a town following, especially if they're looking to be exposed by a partner.
Some scum do not want town lynched. Especially in multiball.
Some scum want PRs hidden because mass-claims break games.


P-EDIT:
I also went in thinking scum wouldn't mess up setup knowledge (you can see how it colored my early reads), but even after thoroughly reading the setup, unexpected outcomes have happened twice for me:
1. I thought the resolution list would be private at first, then certain responses made me think the resolution list would be public, but it's obviously still private.
2. I thought that bonus delegates from hosting were tied to player slots and not the 'host' position.

[Varsoon]

Scum only have one objective, Bujaber: Eliminate all enemies.
In singleball, that means defeat the town.
In multiball, it means all factions that aren't their own.

I started using the whole 'levels' thing as a joke a long time ago, but it refers to the level of WIFOM that a player is playing on.
Level 2 Scum would mean it's scum trying to play in a way that looks town.

I think that mafia is a more complex game than having a checklist of "Things scum would do" and "Things town would do" and just weighing each player on that scale.
Limiting yourself to that scope only sets you up to get gamed by scum and inhibit your abilities as town, imo.

[Varsoon]

I'm gonna blow your mind real quick
When I play as scum, not everything that I do is scum motivated. Sometimes I do things completely antithetical to my wincon. It's not for any WIFOM either, it's just because I think it's funny.
As town, I play contrary to a town win con a ton. I lurk because I'm apathetic to the game. I complain in-forum when that's not helping me achieve wincon at all. I make gambits and jokes and posts that have no business coming from town and don't do anything to help me actually win the game.

Earlier, someone pointed out that I have claimed scum twice this game, so they couldn't trust me.
In what world does either alignment claim scum if they're playing to wincon?

[Varsoon]

b-but why did you quote me there?

P-EDIT: Oh, hehe. BUT ELBIRN JOKING ABOUT BEING SECOND LEVEL SCUM WOULD BE A THIRD LEVEL SCUM PLAY MY GUYYYYY

[Varsoon]

Unless you were town, then it'd be a second level town play, hm.

[Varsoon]

Or maybe fourth level if your joke was really elaborate.

[Varsoon]

Real talk, I gave the 'on another level' role in Varsoon Mafia to my IRL friend Xiao Long because he's the only dude who even got the 'level' stuff at that time.
I think it all started as a joke in Open 512 C9++ (if that's the right number, could be misremembering) where I was just spouting off as much BS as possible to try to clog the thread with noise while my team bussed me.
Did not work out. Bad strat. I have disavowed noise strats.

[Varsoon]

What made it awesome?

[Varsoon]

So why are people so adamant about a Creature lynch?

When Creature wasn't around to vote, I didn't read that as alignment-indicative at all, dude was legit not on-site.

[Varsoon]

Seems like a shitty reason to vote someone over casing them, but lack of activity is more reflective of scum in multiball than anything else, imo.
Folks that stick their necks out get 'em chopped off.

[Varsoon]

Yo varsoon, have you played with creature before?

I've modded a game that he's played in, at least.
I believe we've played together.
I could not tell you anything about his meta.
I am the worst.

[Varsoon]

I also don't want this game to go to the deadline.
Multiball would mean less scum coordination, but it does entail more chaos could happen close to deadline and I hate that sort of scramble.

[Varsoon]

I'm cool with that. More info beat less info. Just don't want to end up without a lynch.

[Varsoon]

What made it awesome?

See for yourself man. It's a half-hour fyi.

Was just more of the same. Don't know why people get so overblown excited/hyped for ports, rehashes, and sequels they knew were going to happen. Then again, I've been kinda jaded when it comes to games/hype since Level5 let me down with White Knight Chronicles, Lionhead got shutdown, and Bioshock Infinite was trash.
Hope Octopath Traveller is cool.

[Varsoon]

I've already played Undertale and Crash, though. Wondering if the Switch flounder the same way the WiiU did; a few of cool titles around launch, some tech demos, then nothing but ports and titles with low appeal.

Infinite was a let down on every front. It had a few cool set pieces and gimmicks, I guess. I made the mistake of following the game religiously from announcement and getting it day 1. It's baffling how many steps it takes backwards in areas its predecessors succeeded well in.

[Varsoon]

Ay, I liked Bayo2 and Wonderful 101. This is coming from a dude who had a WiiU for years.
I thought the WiiU had a lot of potential for asymmetrical multiplayer and unique games.
Just never really was realized. Nintendoland was really cool but nothing quite delivered on it.
Wish they would've made a D&D-esque game where the main controller was a DM and the others were players.
Or a Megaman BattleNetwork one where the main controller was your PET.
I'm glad they're making metroid games again and I'm hoping Octopath turns out well, but, yeah s'bout it.

[Varsoon]

Nah, I think the Switch is cool so far, I just hope they keep making cool games for it. I'm more interested in new IPs than remasters, ports, etc. Sequels can be cool if they're good, but I usually reserve judgment until they're out. On that note, Odyssey and Breath of the Wild were really cool for being sequels.
You're right, for some reason I thought stuff like Smash4, WindWaker on WiiU, Bayo2, and Wonderful 101 were closer to its initial release.

[Varsoon]

Also, sorry for getting so off-topic with discussion here.
It's just a bit weird that the game is stalled--is it just because the IC wants a slot to catch up?

[Varsoon]

Depends on if your wallet can stomach it, really. The Switch released with kind of absurd price points compared to the competition.
If you're G with it, no problem. If not, wait for a sale or holiday or something. Switch is probably great if you didn't own a WiiU, since a lot of the titles ported to it from WiiU are pretty good (Tropical Freeze, Bayonetta 2, Mario Kart, etc).

[Varsoon]

So, uh, why then?