Labyrinth Mafia (Endgame)

Shoshin · Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:32 pm

Please unvote before someone actually hammers.

Shoshin · Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:35 pm

I put so much fucking time and effort into this game to have a bunch of people just quick hammer Sajj? And not even read any of the posts? Yes, I'm frustrated. This makes me not want to play mafia.

Shoshin · Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:35 pm

If Sajj is scum, well done. Maybe I just suck at this game.

Shoshin · Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:36 pm

I'm literally in shock that Nancy hammered that.

Shoshin · Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:40 pm

In post 4035, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:I find it curious how Shoshin never ever considers Wheme to even be a possibility.

What the fuck are you talking about?

Shoshin · Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:42 pm

So Nancy's not reading the game.

the worst isn't reading the game.

Wheme isn't reading the game.

Sajj, the one player besides me who was for sure reading, is dead.

I guess the site meta is to not read anything and just lynch the players who do.

Shoshin · Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:49 pm

In post 4047, WhemeStar wrote:Why does scum redirect someone to themselves??

Good question.

Shoshin · Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:51 pm

Wheme, why did you just lynch Sajj if you think she's town?

Shoshin · Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:57 pm

He was on Reality. Nobody visited.

Shoshin · Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:01 pm

I'm not feeling nice.

I'm debating whether to replace out of this game.

Shoshin · Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:01 pm

Probably won't, out of respect for our mod.

Shoshin · Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:03 pm

I'm very upset at the way Sajj was quick hammered here by Nancy.

Shoshin · Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:08 pm

I'm not protecting anyone tonight.

You can lynch me tomorrow.

Done with this game.

Shoshin · Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:12 pm

Nobody worth saving in this town.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:41 am

I protected Nico and tried to prevent mislynches on Angel and Sajj... And the scum are obviously trying to avoid killing me at night because they want to mislynch me... If that's not enough to see I'm town...

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:15 am

Random and Wisdom are probably gonna vote for me, so if one of them is town, this game is over.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:43 am

I don't know why I wasted my time with this hopeless game.

I protected Nancy.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:45 am

Just vote me already if that's how this is going to go. Don't waste my time if there's no way you're going to change your mind.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:00 am

So you think I'm a scum doctor who claimed bodyguard on D2 and then protected the macho cop who I simultaneously killed, knowing the cop was somehow a macho cop so that my protect would fail?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:05 am

I'll say this again - the scum are between Random, Wisdom, and the worst.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:07 am

And I stop a mislynch on Sajj? No.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:08 am

In post 4011, the worst wrote:VOTE: Sajj

will be in literal shock of this is town tbh

This is pretty scummy coming right after Nancy entered the thread calling Sajj scum.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:11 am

In post 4035, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 4001, Wisdom wrote:all i know is that you and random are town
Idk anymore about tw and wheme
Shoshin continues feeling like she wants to force her agentas through

@nancy
I think Sajj is scummy and Shoshin is clueless.

Sajj lying about being 1-shot makes 0 sense because I don’t believe for one second scum doesn’t shoot him over Reality. As for Shoshin, I could see that if she’s a bg why they let her live over Sajj. I think she could have possibly been pocketed.

I find it curious how Shoshin never ever considers Wheme to even be a possibility.

If Sajj flips red and the game doesn’t end, lynch Shoshin. If he flips green, then lynch Wheme.

This is just absurdly wrong.

Is Nancy going to finally admit that she's been wrong about things and maybe reevaluate?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:11 am

If the worst is so townie, why haven't scum killed him?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:13 am

In post 4047, WhemeStar wrote:Why does scum redirect someone to themselves??

This is just infuriating. I'm saying this the entirety of the day phase trying to protect Sajj and what's Wheme do? Ignore it until she's hammered, then pose the question as if I hadn't been asking it for the past 10 pages, and then unvote.

Unbelievable, really.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:17 am

In post 4120, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 4116, Wisdom wrote:not voting because probably lylo but consider my vote on shoshin
I’m relieved you didn’t die, since I’m very sure you’re town now, so one less person to sort. Sorry about hammer.

Why are you so sure Wisdom is town?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:18 am

In post 4123, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 4117, Shoshin wrote:I protected Nico and tried to prevent mislynches on Angel and Sajj... And the scum are obviously trying to avoid killing me at night because they want to mislynch me... If that's not enough to see I'm town...
Sure, scum kils Reality and Wheme over you and Vig.

Why did scum kill Reality/Wheme over you, vig who was about to shoot me, and the worst? Please explain, Nancy.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:19 am

In post 4140, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:The Reality/Wheme NKs either point to you or someone framing you. Why? Because no one else would feel threatened by either because they were VOYEURS and not WATCHERS.

Why would I feel threatened by them over someone like Random/Wisdom who are voting me no matter what I say? Wheme was at least changing his mind about shit, and Reality was about to reevaluate everything in the game after I died from Sajj's vig.

Remember, scum thought Sajj was going to shoot me.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:19 am

I'll say this again.

SCUM THOUGHT SAJJ WAS GOING TO KILL ME.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:29 am

Nancy, do you understand what a bodyguard does?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:34 am

In post 4119, Wisdom wrote:Sell me on a scumteam that doesnt contain you

If it's not you, it's Random and the worst.

Why Random? I already made an extensive case on why Random is scum via behaviors and associations with Creature/Chick. Have you read it? I can re-post if necessary.

You think Random is town he said he was in a hood with Chick. But how do you know that's true? Why are you assuming that Chick and Random didn't fake being in a hood together? Why couldn't Chick be in the same hood with Reality & Wheme and Random just be partnered with Chick? Or why can't they be scum neighbors?

Why the worst? Besides process of elimination, he's lynched Sajj right after Nancy entered the thread saying she thought Sajj was scummy, subtly manipulating her into hammering and then playing dumb. Is there any reason you think the worst is town?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:48 am

To believe I'm scum, you have to believe the following:

1. I'm in the hood with Reality & Wheme or somehow have access to it.

2. I knew Nico was a macho cop prior to N2.

3. I'm a scum doctor who fakeclaimed bodyguard on D2 to Shepard, told him I was on Nico, and in fact protected Nico the same night that I also killed her.

4. I tried to stop a mislynch on Angel despite having no reason to do so as scum.

5. I tried to stop a mislynch on Sajj despite having no reason to do so as scum.

6. I killed Wheme, the guy who has been saying I'm town for a large portion of the game and has actually showed a willingness to reconsider his previous reads, instead of the people who haven't shown any indication of changing their minds about me (e.g. Random).

7. Chick preferred lynching me, her supposed partner, over Random.

8. I bussed Creature on D1 and D2.

In contrast, to believe that Random, the worst, or Wisdom is scum, you don't have to believe anything that crazy. To believe Random is scum, you have to believe:

1. Chick lied about being neighbored with Random and she was in fact neighbors with Reality & Wheme (no less likely than the idea that I have access to the Reality/Wheme hood), or alternatively

1. Chick and Random are scum neighbors (not that implausible given our mod)

Or to believe that the worst is scum, you just have to believe:

1. the worst bussed Creature on D2.

Or to believe Wisdom is scum, you just have to believe:

1. He's fakeclaiming.

Why's it so hard to believe they're scum compared with me?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:49 am

In post 4150, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 4142, Shoshin wrote:
In post 4140, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:The Reality/Wheme NKs either point to you or someone framing you. Why? Because no one else would feel threatened by either because they were VOYEURS and not WATCHERS.
Why would I feel threatened by them over someone like Random/Wisdom who are voting me no matter what I say? Wheme was at least changing his mind about shit, and Reality was about to reevaluate everything in the game after I died from Sajj's vig.

Remember, scum thought Sajj was going to shoot me.
Please stop insulting my intelligence. Lol

You should stop insulting mine... You're the one who is mislynching, not me. If you're smart, show it.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:50 am

Reality believed that I had access to her hood.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:50 am

Fuck this. You've already made up your mind...

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:50 am

You're not engaging me in good faith, Nancy. This is very disappointing.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:55 am

In post 4158, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 4154, Shoshin wrote:Reality believed that I had access to her hood.
Prove it. Post the quote.

lmao read the game. I literally have done this multipel times now.

In post 4009, Shoshin wrote:
In post 3351, Reality Check wrote:It requires neighborhood access though, otherwise there's no motivation to protect Nico as scum.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:02 am

I'm done.

Nancy, you're not engaging me in good faith. I'm not playing further games with you.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:06 am

Of course Ank was speculating. That's why I kept saying her scumread on me was so bad. She believed the only way I could be scum was if I had access to her hood, and she believed I did in fact have that access.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:09 am

Why would scum protect the cop from their own nightkill?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:11 am

The protected a cop from being nightkilled? Why?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:11 am

I haven't read Minuet, but I'd like to know WHY they protected their nightkill?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:13 am

In post 3350, Reality Check wrote:The gambit idea fits into place if I'm right

It otherwise makes perfect sense

In post 3351, Reality Check wrote:It requires neighborhood access though, otherwise there's no motivation to protect Nico as scum.

The gambit "

requires

" neighborhood access. REQUIRES.

That's not speculation. That's a clear statement about what the gambit requires, from the person who performed the gambit in Minuet.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:14 am

The gambit is unlikely because (a) I claimed bodyguard, not doctor, prior to performing the action, and (b) we're talking about a cop who scum needed to kill, lest the cop get off more investigations.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:26 am

WHy would scum kill me, Nancy? That makes no sense.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:31 am

Nancy, stop telling me what I do as town.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:34 am

The way you hammered Sajj was inexcusable, and I don't have to wait until post-game to say that. I already know town lost this game, so for me this is the equivalent of post-game.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:36 am

If they're never scum, why didn't scum kill them?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:37 am

Why didn't scum kill Nancy?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:37 am

Why didn't scum kill Random?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:37 am

If I'm scum, why isn't Nancy dead?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:45 am

In post 4176, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:And I tend to be quite fond of Occams razor

Occam's razor suggests I'm town because I bodyguarded Nico on the same night that scum killed her, which scum don't do.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:45 am

VOTE: Wisdom

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:46 am

Actually, let's go with Random...

VOTE: Random

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:51 am

@Nancy

If you cannot understand why I'm extremely frustrated and upset with you, then I don't know what to tell you. I had no intention of manipulating you to do anything because I'm not scum and if you can't see how that's obviously the case based on the facts/logic I've presented, then I'm just going to call you out for playing very poorly.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:12 am

In post 4191, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 4181, Shoshin wrote:Nancy, stop telling me what I do as town.
I’m telling you that threatening not to play any more games with me is a cringeworthy bad argument to affect my vote. If you were paying any attention this game, you’d know that this kind of manipulation doesn’t work on me. Anything other than logic/cold hard facts will likely have the reverse effect on me that you’d like but feel free to ignore this.

I'm not trying to manipulate you, so stop assuming that everything I do is manipulative. I'm expressing how I actually feel about you and the way you're playing this game. You seem to have trouble accepting any sort of criticism and can't even admit when you were wrong about something. Like you're not even apologetic about lynching Sajj... and that infuriates me because I put so much work into saving her, I fought tooth and nail explaining exactly why she was town, and you just ignored all the work I did and nonchalantly lynched her without even trying to understand what I was saying, and then didn't even seem apologetic at all and now you're going after me.

You want to talk about the logic/cold hard facts? That's what I'm trying to use to show you that I'm town. I know that insulting you and getting upset with you isn't going to change your mind, so that's not what I'd do if I were scum. What I'd do as scum is tell you how awesome you are at this game, and buddy the shit out of you.

Let's talk aboutu the logic/cold hard facts and you can tell me where you disagree.

1. I claimed bodyguard on D2. I locked myself into that claim.

2. I used my role on N2 on Nico. This is proven by Reality's result.

3. Scum killed Nico on N2.

4. In general, if scum have a doctor, they don't protect the person they're nightkilling. It's a very unlikely gambit for scum to protect their nightkill. It's even more unlikely for scum to protect their nightkill onto a cop. I'd speculate that 9/10 scum don't protect their nightkill, and 99/100 scum don't protect their nightkill onto a cop.

5. I fought tooth and nail to save Sajj when nobody else thought she was town. I was the ONLY player who defended her, and I did so actively and aggressively in a way that scum wouldn't ever do.

6. Scum didn't kill Sajj or you on N4. The only plausible explanation for this is that scum wanted to let Sajj kill me and they didn't want to target you because they knew killing you might end up with me dying instead because that's how bodyguard works.

7. Scum killed Wheme, the one player who actually voiced a townread on me. If I'm scum, why would I kill Wheme over Random, Wisdom, the worst, or you?

These are the cold facts. They strongly suggest that I'm town. If you actually care about winning this game, please address them. Otherwise, I'll just assume you never had any intent to engage with me.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:12 am

In post 4201, Wisdom wrote:VOTE: shoshin

So you're scum with Random? Figures.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:24 am

You think the worst is scum?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:25 am

I don't understand why you're so sure Random is town...

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:26 am

You're taking his and Chick's word that they were in a neighborhood together, and you're assuming they can't be scum neighbors. Those are both baseless assumptions.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:30 am

In post 4208, Wisdom wrote:no, its a fact they were neighbors, no matter how much you keep ignoring my answer on the matter, and scum neighbors is incredibly rare and unlikely in this case

You haven't actually explained why they're neighbors... like, not at all... if you look at Chick's flip, the mod hid the link to the neighborhood... why'd he do that? Our mod is a very lazy mod... he forgot to send Sajj the message from Nancy on N1... he doesn't do things without a reason... and yet he chose to hide the link in Chick's flip.... why?

What's rarer, scum doctor protecting the nightkill onto a cop, or scum neighbors?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:34 am

In post 4210, Wisdom wrote:lmao
Where have you seen flips having actual links to neighborhoods?

It seems like Wheme's flip had a link to a hood...

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:36 am

In post 3655, RadiantCowbells wrote:Chickadee has been lynched! She was
Junk Lady, Mafia Identity Cop Neighbour
.

Spoiler: Role PM
Everything in the world you've ever cared about is all right here.

Welcome! You are the
Junk Lady, Mafia Identity Cop Neighbour
.

Junk Lady (Identity Cop): Each night you may peruse someone's garbage and determine their character in flavour.
Neighbour (Neighbour): You are in a neighbourhood that can be found here.

You win when the Goblins have sent all of the Town to the oubliette or nothing can prevent this from happening.

Your fakeclaim is as follows.

What? Okay? Alright.

Welcome! You are the
Hat, Town 1-Shot Identity Cop Neighbour
.

Hat (Identity Cop): Once during the game you may visit a person each night and discover their identity in flavour.
Neighbour (Neighbour): You are in a neighbourhood that can be found here.

You win when the Goblins have been sent to the oubliette.

Night 4 has begun and will end whenever I wake up wednesday morning, 7:00 AM EDT at the earliest.

Chick's role PM makes no mention of the supposed "Neighborhood 251" nor any mention of Random. It just says she is in a neighborhood, with no mention of who is in that neighborhood.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:37 am

In post 3658, RadiantCowbells wrote:Reality Check has died! They were
Right Door Knocker, Town Even-Night Voyeur Neighbour

Spoiler: Role PM
Immfmmfmmf!

Welcome! You are the
Right Door Knocker, Town Even-Night Voyeur Neighbour
.

One of Two (Even-Night): You are only one of the knockers and may only act on even nights.
Knocker (Voyeur): Each night you may target a player and determine what abilities, if any, targeted them.
Neighbour (Neighbour): You belong to a neighbourhood which can be found here.

You win when the Goblins have been sent to the oubliette.

Day 5 has begun!

Similarly, Reality's role PM makes no mention of Wheme nor any mention of who is in her hood. Like Chick's PM, it simply provides a link to the hood.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:41 am

My point is that the role PM makes no mention of who is in the hood.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:42 am

I'm saying there's different possibilities as to how Random could be partnerd with Chick - either as scum neighbors, or as a secret member of Reality & Wheme's neighborhood.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:45 am

Hoods don't automatically say who is in there. Not in my experience.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:47 am

Wisdom, you know better than to assume that hoods say who is in the hood.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:50 am

I have.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:51 am

In general, the role PM says who is in the hood. Otherwise, you just don't know.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:57 am

I did a quick search and quickly found an example of a game where you don't know who is in the neighborhood:

viewtopic.php?f=94&t=75524&hilit=neighborhood

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:15 am

Nancy, I already told you I protected you... are you reading my posts?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:16 am

Nancy, did you mislynch Sajj? Yes. Did you mislynch Angel? Yes. Did I defend both of them? Yes. The results speak for themselves

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:19 am

There's a difference between "never saying you don't regret something" and "actually being apologetic and admitting you fucked up."

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:21 am

@Nancy

Before lynching Sajj, you said you'd be shocked if she was town.

She was town.

Were you shocked?

Are you apologetic?

Do you admit that you were wrong to lynch her?

Do you admit that I called out exactly what made her town and tried to defend her?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:21 am

Why wouldn't scum neighbors make sense?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:23 am

It allows for a couple things - 1) two scum players can plot against their teammates without their teammates knowing what they're talking about (e.g. a traitor type situation) and 2) the appearance of town confirmation when one of them flips scum in the event of lynching.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:23 am

In post 4239, the worst wrote:I really don't see how Wisdom is actually townreading rando over me in any rational world

You want to lynch Wisdom over Random?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:24 am

What'd Random tell you the truth about?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:28 am

the worst, I think the only hope of this town is if you use your gladiate ability today to save me.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:30 am

I wouldn't vote you if you did that.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:30 am

If we're in LYLO and Nancy votes me, this game is over.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:33 am

Thank fucking god.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:33 am

Now we know it's Random.

Nearly had a heart attack after that vote from Random.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:35 am

the worst, if you have any concerns about me, I'm around to address them.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:36 am

Fuck, I have a couple offsite profiles. Which one is it?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:37 am

I don't really want my anonymity exposed just yet but I figured I'd get found out eventually.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:44 am

You think it's only Wisdom, not Random too?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:45 am

In post 4266, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 4243, Shoshin wrote:What'd Random tell you the truth about?
His being a neighbour and being in a hood. I was mildly suspicious of that until you posted that.

I don't understand... I didn't post anything that proves he was in a hood...

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:00 am

And what's that prove Nancy?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:23 am

In post 4280, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:I think scum!the worst kills Wisdom over Wheme but I think his vote is bad.

Why?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:25 am

Nancy, how many times do I have to tell you that I protected you last night before you acknowledge it?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:29 am

Scum have kept obvious townies alive until LYLO because they're trying to avoid killing the player that I bodyguard.

If you look at my choice not to bodyguard Shepard in that light, you'd see that it had a very pro-town effect (or could have if we hadn't lynched Sajj).

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:30 am

If I were scum in this game, I'd have killed Sajj, Nancy, and the worst before I ever killed a player like Wheme.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:31 am

Yeah, we disagree about that.

It was a bad decision in this group of players because I overestimated your ability to read me as town.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:32 am

Like, if you are remotely capable of seeing that I'm town, it's better to have me alive than Shepard. Shepard's reads were terrible, he's bad at town, and he provides no value other than being confirmed town (and thus would have died soon after me anyway).

I provide a lot of benefit by having fucked up the scum's nightkill decisions and by actually having good reads and almost saving Sajj from a mislynch that Shepard surely would have pushed through.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:37 am

If I had died to save Shepard, Shepard dies the next night... and then Nancy dies...

Assuming we mislynch Sajj (as Shepard would have done), we end up with the following players alive: Random, Wisdom, Wheme, Reality, the worst.

None of those players are confirmed, whereas if you guys hadn't mislynched Sajj we end up at LYLO with two confirmed townies (Nancy, and Sajj).

My play leads to better results if you don't get distracted by your "theory that bodyguards should always use their roles" and if you recognize that fact that I should be confirmed town (same as Shepard would have been) by Reality's result.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:38 am

In post 4301, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 4290, Shoshin wrote:Nancy, how many times do I have to tell you that I protected you last night before you acknowledge it?
This is the first, you’ve said anything about last night. At the EOD 5, you said that there was no one woth saving iirc?

Based on once again, my falling from whatever good villa pedestal you had me on.

No, it's not. You're skipping my posts. See:

In post 4126, Shoshin wrote:I don't know why I wasted my time with this hopeless game.

I protected Nancy.

In post 4232, Shoshin wrote:Nancy, I already told you I protected you... are you reading my posts?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:39 am

In post 4300, the worst wrote:Like from my point of view Wisdom replaced into a widely scumread slot who had been distancing from his partner (TPFKAP=>Chick) all game. realises he has to either reverse that read or bus because having absolutely no read trajectory on someone his slot has been allegedly scumreading all game is shady af. so he bussed.

this is also indicative of there being 2 scum left.

Wisdom & Random.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:39 am

In post 4304, the worst wrote:
In post 4302, Shoshin wrote:Random, Wisdom, Wheme, Reality, the worst.
Reality glues a {Wheme, RC, TW} townbloc together
instant scum loss tbqh

Reality wanted to lynch Wheme...

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:40 am

In post 4301, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 4290, Shoshin wrote:Nancy, how many times do I have to tell you that I protected you last night before you acknowledge it?
This is the first, you’ve said anything about last night. At the EOD 5, you said that there was no one woth saving iirc?

Based on once again, my falling from whatever good villa pedestal you had me on.

I said I wasn't protecting anyone so that scum might target you. It was to increase the chance of successfully using my role.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:43 am

Please fact check the Wheme point if you don't believe me.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:44 am

Gladiating Wisdom or Random is a solid idea.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:45 am

the worst is very charming, probably gets plenty of nice things said all the time

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:46 am

In post 4314, the worst wrote:RC's last reads were that chainsawing thru Chickadee=>Shoshin=>Sajj wohld win the game and she didn't want to vote Chickadee

she also said rando and Wisdom were obvtown and responded in an obvtown way to her reaction test

Then she said lynch Wheme if game isn't over after lynching me and Sajj...

So, yeah, if she's at LYLO with Random, Wisdom, Wheme, and you, she's lynching Wheme.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:04 pm

CS was sure Sajj was scum. I argued with him about it in the PM, after I started thinking she was town, and he kept saying she was scum.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:06 pm

If CS had found out that Sajj lied about her role, it's pretty certain he lynches her, considering that he already suspected her. He's not very good as town and generally has terrible reads.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:12 pm

In post 4326, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:But what’t the difference between last night and N3, where you refused to protect anyone - including me? If anything your upset at me is far more justified N5 after Sajj mislynch then it ever should have been over an anti-town player like Angel.

The difference is that on N3 I had a different view about the ability of the players in this game to correctly read me as town.

On N3, I didn't think you or the worst or anyone else would doubt that I was town to the degree you did as a result of my action. I misjudged the experience and competence of the players in this game. When I realized I was going to be mislynched if I didn't use my role, I started using it again, on N4 and N5.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:13 pm

Reality wasn't the obvious target... and neither was Wheme...

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:14 pm

Nancy, the scum kill you because you're confirmed town via role, redirect, and Nico's investigation. Scum kill confirmed townies over non-confirmed townies. That's why you were the obvious kill.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:22 pm

In post 4339, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 4331, Shoshin wrote:If CS had found out that Sajj lied about her role, it's pretty certain he lynches her, considering that he already suspected her. He's not very good as town and generally
has terrible reads
.
Is that why you kept on pushing his scum random read on us?

That was to show that I wasn't alone in believing that Random was scum - both Nico & CS agreed with me. I think there's value in collective intelligence, so when multiple townies agree on something, it's corroborative.

CS respects my play as town quite a bit. He knows that my reads are very good as town, so it was also to emphasize to you that I'm not as bad as you seem to think.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:23 pm

In post 4340, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 4337, Shoshin wrote:Reality wasn't the obvious target... and neither was Wheme...
I’m calling bullshit on this. Reality was revealed to be the even night voyeur on D5. Who in their right mind - other than me - couldn’t have forseen that Wheme was the odd night one.

If I weren’t so freaked out over bad Sajj hammer, I doubt I’d be dragging this out.

We knew Wheme was the odd night voyeur, but that didn't mean he was town.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:23 pm

In post 4343, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 4338, Shoshin wrote:Nancy, the scum kill you because you're confirmed town via role, redirect, and Nico's investigation. Scum kill confirmed townies over non-confirmed townies. That's why you were the obvious kill.
Nah, not even close. I may be IC but I am a vt now due to GIF vig. Scum really only needs to kill me before 3 player LYLO and even then they’d still have a shot if I was still that clueless/heavily pocketed.

Wheme was a potential mislynch, you weren't. It's as simple as that, Nancy.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:25 pm

But I'm glad at least Nancy admits she's clueless now. That's progress.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:33 pm

In post 4349, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 4344, Shoshin wrote:
In post 4340, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 4337, Shoshin wrote:Reality wasn't the obvious target... and neither was Wheme...
I’m calling bullshit on this. Reality was revealed to be the even night voyeur on D5. Who in their right mind - other than me - couldn’t have forseen that Wheme was the odd night one.

If I weren’t so freaked out over bad Sajj hammer, I doubt I’d be dragging this out.
We knew Wheme was the odd night voyeur, but that didn't mean he was town.
That makes no sense. I scumread him based on not knowing about the odd/even night thing and believing them both to be 1 shots. I didn’t realize the connection before today - although I clearly should have.

What doesn't make sense?

Reality claimed for both herself and Wheme on D4. They never claimed 1-shot. They claimed odd/even. Wheme never said he didn't know about the odd/even nights.

If I had protected the nightkill, that would have you, the worst, Random, Wisdom, and Wheme. The likely mislynch in that group is Wheme. So I didn't think scum would kill him.

I thought scum would kill you because you were investigated innocent, your role confirms you town, and you were redirected on N1. You're confirmed town at this point, and that's dangerous for scum to have around at LYLO because it limits their lynch options.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:36 pm

In post 4353, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:Random has to be town with this. He previously thought that they’re were 4 scum and not 3, so him hardtown reading the worst, points to him being town here.

Assume I'm town for a moment because you're getting stuck in a confirmation bias tunnel... Why would this make Random town?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:39 pm

You think scum left you alive to continue leading mislynches?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:41 pm

When I'm scum, I kill confirmed town whenever I have the chance. But I suppose it's plausible that scum don't care about Nancy. She's admittedly the most non-threatening confirmed town I've ever played with.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:43 pm

Who will scum kill tonight? That's an interesting question.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:53 pm

In post 4363, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 4356, Shoshin wrote:
In post 4353, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:Random has to be town with this. He previously thought that they’re were 4 scum and not 3, so him hardtown reading the worst, points to him being town here.
Assume I'm town for a moment because you're getting stuck in a confirmation bias tunnel... Why would this make Random town?
It’s not in his interest to townclear the worst obviously. He only needs to make sure I’m not scumreading him. He obviously believes the worst’s gladiator role claim. IOW, he is conftown reading the worst. If there are actually 2 scum and not one, he is screwed.

He previously posted that there were 4 scum in the game not 3, which meant he doesn’t know how many there are. His changing his mind from 4 to 3 isn’t suspicious. The converse would be.

At any rate, nothing is more suspicious to me right now, than you insisting that I was the obvious NK after I unknowingly but blatantly wolfsided D5.

If there are 2 scum, he's one of them... and all he needs is my mislynch to win...

If there is 1 scum left and it's him, he'll have to reevaluate when I flip town... and that's the case even if he was town...

I've been changing my mind about how many scum there are - I went from 4 to 3 and you suspected me for it, remember? - and at this point, I have no clue how many there are, but if there's 4, then it's Random & Wisdom.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:54 pm

the worst, please explain to Nancy why I protected her because she thinks it's bullshit when it comes from me...

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:57 pm

How can you still think I'm scum, the worst?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:59 pm

VOTE: Wisdom

Then lynch Wisdom.

I will try to die tonight.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:04 pm

So there wasn't ever really any chance you'd change your mind, huh? Why didn't you just vote and save us all the trouble, Nancy?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:10 pm

@Nancy

Wisdom didn't bus Chick at LYLO. He bussed Chick before Sajj was mislynched.

Wisdom left open the possibility of mislynching me. That in no way confirms him as town.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:11 pm

I could care less about how Nancy feels. She's not someone I intend to play with again.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:17 pm

I didn't do everything possible to stop Chick's lynch. I sort of let it happen, and I would have voted her eventually if it was between me and her. But I was pushing for a Random lynch because I was more confident about Random flipping scum than Chick.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:19 pm

If you think there's 3 scum, you should at the very least give me a chance to prove my role tonight.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:20 pm

Random was pushing for my lynch over Creature's, and then pushing for my lynch over Chick's... so maybe you should look closer at Random...

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:27 pm

Wisdom wasn't next after me... Reality, for example, wanted to lynch Sajj and Wheme next...

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:28 pm

As for killing Reality/Wheme, I've already explained the Wisdom motive there - to avoid killing me.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:29 pm

You also need to remember something about D4 and N4 - scum thought Sajj was going to shoot me that night...

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:29 pm

If there's 4 scum, the worst is town. That's 100%.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:30 pm

If it's 4 scum, it's Random & Wisdom, 100%.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:37 pm

Nancy, how do you explain Chick going after me instead of Random on D4?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:42 pm

In post 4402, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 4393, Shoshin wrote:Wisdom wasn't next after me... Reality, for example, wanted to lynch Sajj and Wheme next...
Yes he was. Reality was certainly not next due to her mistakenly thinking random was the communicative who visited Nico.

You really got to work on your reading comprehension skills...

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:43 pm

In post 4403, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 4395, Shoshin wrote:As for killing Reality/Wheme, I've already explained the Wisdom motive there - to avoid killing me.
Why does he want to avoid killing you?
Why does scum!Taly defend you and scumread random?

He wants to avoid killing me because I'm the obvious mislynch...

In the early stages of the game, scum wants to buddy strong townies and distance from partners. We're not in the early game anymore, so things have changed.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:44 pm

Scum also wanted to avoid killing me because they thought Sajj was going to kill me.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:47 pm

In post 4408, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 4404, Shoshin wrote:
In post 4402, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 4393, Shoshin wrote:Wisdom wasn't next after me... Reality, for example, wanted to lynch Sajj and Wheme next...
Yes he was. Reality was certainly not next due to her mistakenly thinking random was the communicative who visited Nico.
You really got to work on your reading comprehension skills...
Yeah, I understand how you hate it when I make sense. What?

This isn't the first time you misread what I said... To clarify, I was saying that the likely lynch after me wasn't necessarily Wisdom, it was Sajj/Wheme.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:47 pm

In post 4409, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 4406, Shoshin wrote:Scum also wanted to avoid killing me because they thought Sajj was going to kill me.
That doesn’t account for N5.

They didn't kill me on N5 because I was the obvious mislynch for today... Why would they kill their mislynch?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:52 pm

@Nancy

If I had been lynched instead of Chick, the likely lynches to follow would have been Random, Chick, Wheme, Sajj, Wisdom, the worst.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:04 pm

In post 4414, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:Look, let’s cut the crap ok? Creature was scum strongman. Post Creature flip, Scum only gets one kill attempt no two.

The only time your protection could have possibly saved me was N1. I was never in any danger after that. It makes no freaking sense for scum to have NKed me last night, after I helped them with Sajj mislynch and Wheme vote.

But you did try to stop Sajj mislynch. But then Sajj had already claimed 1-shot, so he was no threat to scum at that point.

Taly hard defending you and scumleaning random make no sense if they are w/w together.

Scum could have killed you N4 or N5. Yes, you have been helping the scum, but that doesn't change the fact that you're confirmed town. Think about it this way: Shepard also helped the scum (he mislynched Angel), but the scum killed him. Why? Because he was confirmed town.

I would have stopped the Sajj lynch if it weren't for you, and that would have been a massively pro-town turn in this game. We would have had an entire lynch to spare. You want to cut the crap? Please do. Just pause and think about this for a moment. What if we hadn't lynched Sajj? Think about how pro-town that would have been. And then think how it almost happened and it almost happened because of me, not anyone else. And don't think that's my ego talking, that's me trying to get you to realize that my motives are aligned with town, not scum.

Taly buddying me and scumleaning Random makes perfect sense if they're partners. As I said, scum distance themselves from their partners. It's precisely how scum interact with each other. If you don't believe me, I can find you countless games on this site (and others) where that's the case.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:05 pm

In post 4418, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 4411, Shoshin wrote:
In post 4409, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 4406, Shoshin wrote:Scum also wanted to avoid killing me because they thought Sajj was going to kill me.
That doesn’t account for N5.
They didn't kill me on N5 because I was the obvious mislynch for today... Why would they kill their mislynch?
But I voted Wheme not you. Why couldn’t they have killed you and tried to push a mislynch on Wheme?

C'mon, Nancy.

I'm a much easier mislynch than Wheme.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:09 pm

Because he's mislynching me, not the worst.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:10 pm

From scum's perspective, they need to convince townies to vote me. That means buddying them while scumreading me.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:11 pm

If it's 2v3, it's in scum's interest to argue it's 1v4 and to buddy all the townies except the one they're trying to mislynch.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:13 pm

I doubt Random has actually thought about why he's townreading the worst. He's just buddying him to get me lynched.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:14 pm

Wisdom's 180 on the worst is interesting, yes.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:16 pm

Interesting.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:17 pm

Well, I think the worst is probably town.

If he's solo scum, I don't think he gives me the chance to prove my role another night. He probably just lynches me today and then pushes the mislynch tomorrow on either Wisdom or Random, depending on who he kills.

But it's hard to say.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:17 pm

I'd suggest lynching Wisdom over the worst.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:20 pm

I'm glad you used the gladiate, Nancy struggles with conditional reasoning.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:27 pm

In post 4444, the worst wrote:also scum doc!Shoshin targeting Nico makes a lot less sense than town bg!Shoshin targeting Nico.

This.

Scum doctor protecting the nightkill on a cop after claiming bodyguard to town Shepard has less than a 1% probability. It's even less probability than that when you factor in that town only had a 1-shot vig, not an SK or actual vig or anything actually threatening to scum, plus scum had a redirector.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:28 pm

In post 4449, the worst wrote:I can't take the risk of Shoshin's personality losing the game for us.

I'm not very good at dealing with abject stupidity. Sorry. Teach me your ways of charm.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:30 pm

In post 4452, the worst wrote:there can't be an SK I don't think

also wrt w/w hoods
there's been like 20 hoods this game
RadiantCowbells is insane (and we love him for it)
there's a higher chance of a w/w hood in this game than any other lel

Exactly. Our mod is insane, if any game is going to have a w/w hood, it's this game. The weird thing is that Wisdom rules it out so completely.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:44 pm

In post 4455, the worst wrote:WTF activity overview

What? Seems consistent with my understanding of who the town are.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:45 pm

Why would scum have both a doctor and redirector in this setup?

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:46 pm

Just need Nancy to vote Wisdom.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:05 pm

VOTE: Wisdom

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:06 pm

I'm curious whether Random will vote Wisdom or the worst...

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:16 pm

In post 4463, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 4451, Shoshin wrote:
In post 4449, the worst wrote:I can't take the risk of Shoshin's personality losing the game for us.
I'm not very good at dealing with abject stupidity. Sorry. Teach me your ways of charm.
If f you’re referring to me, give me one good fucking reason why I shouldn’t report you for this?

I was talking about my personality, not you.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:21 pm

lol okay Nancy... I think some of the things you've said and thought in this game have tested new depths of stupidity, but I didn't actually say you yourself are stupid. Your play, yes. You yourself? I don't know. You could probably learn to read better, but I don't know you as a person outside this game.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:29 pm

lol okay the worst...

It accomplishes allowing me to let off some anger instead of bottling it up... which is fairly important to my mental health... but I agree it's probably counterproductive to the game...

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:29 pm

In post 4476, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:VOTE: Shoshin

VOTE: Shoshin

VOTE: Shoshin

VOTE: Shoshin

VOTE: Shoshin

VOTE: Shoshin

VOTE: Shoshin

VOTE: Shoshin

VOTE: Shoshin

VOTE: Shoshin

VOTE: Shoshin

VOTE: Shoshin

VOTE: Shoshin

VOTE: Shoshin

VOTE: Shoshin

VOTE: Shoshin

VOTE: Shoshin

VOTE: Shoshin

VOTE: Shoshin

Forgive Nancy, she's a bit slow to figure out what a gladiator does...

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:33 pm

I apologize for insulting Nancy.

Shoshin · Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:39 pm

Nancy, go ahead and insult me a bunch. And then come back to the game and vote Wisdom.

Shoshin · Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:13 am

UNVOTE: Wisdom

Shoshin · Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:38 am

If the worst is scum, he's playing a very strong game.

Shoshin · Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:42 am

the worst, why'd you gladiate Wisdom rather than Random?

Shoshin · Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:00 am

VOTE: Wisdom

I just don't see solo scum the worst... possible but don't think he risks his life this way...

Shoshin · Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:26 am

UNVOTE: Wisdom

Wisdom, why'd you unvote Sajj to vote for me instead?

Shoshin · Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:35 am

But then why vote me?

Shoshin · Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:36 am

In post 4637, Wisdom wrote:Actually no, that was later
I changed my vote because i liked sajj's post at the time

You sure? I think you changed the vote after the redirect point?

Shoshin · Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:42 am

Wisdom, assume I'm town for a moment. Is the last scum Random or the worst?

Shoshin · Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:43 am

It's not pointless. I'm having trouble tracking your progression on Random from nullscum to confirmed town. I'm also having trouble tracking your progression from strong town on the worst to whatever you think now.

Shoshin · Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:44 pm

Scum-scum neighbours can plot behind the backs of their partners. It would actually be a pretty cool role. Kind of like a group of traitors. An informed minority within the informed minority type of thing.

Shoshin · Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:45 pm

It also gives off the appearance of confirmation because of players who mistakenly conflate role with alignment.

Shoshin · Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:45 pm

In post 4652, Wisdom wrote:2 town-town and 2 town-scum, obviously. Scum-scum neighbors are pointless. They can just chat in the scum pt.

What's the point of a scum identity cop?

Shoshin · Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:46 pm

What's the point of scum doctor protecting the nightkill on the cop?

Shoshin · Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:46 pm

Talk about pointless things...

Shoshin · Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:50 pm

What's the point of a scum doctor protecting the nightkill on a cop? I'd like you to answer that, Wisdom.

Shoshin · Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:20 pm

In post 4394, the worst wrote:Ank is a crazy strong town player

This is not what you said on D1. Can you explain the change?

Shoshin · Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:31 am

In post 4663, Shoshin wrote:
In post 4394, the worst wrote:Ank is a crazy strong town player
This is not what you said on D1. Can you explain the change?

Please explain.

Shoshin · Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:17 am

In 681, Taly subtly tries to derail lynch on Creature. A few posts earlier, Random calls Creature lynchbait.

Shoshin · Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:55 am

@Nancy

You said earlier that Taly doesn't make sense with Creature. But in 681 he suggested moving away from the Creature lynch despite voting Creature early on D1. That's the most common pattern that scum fall into when distancing early in the game. They look for ways to justify another wagon, wait for town to start the wagon, and then hop on when safe to do so.

At the same time that Taly hints at town Creature, Random calls Creature lynchbait. The sequence of votes that follow are interesting.

Joral agrees with Taly/Random and votes Renais in 700.

Wheme responds by voting Creature in 710.

I vote Creature after Wheme in 721.

These are both town votes preventing a counterwagon on town Renais. There's no other way to read these votes. If I were scum, I could have joined Joral on Renais.

Random tries directing my attention to Renais in 739. The lynch is building on Creature but Random wants my attention on Renais. What's Random's intent? If I had voted Renais, do you think Random would have joined me? If not, what was the point of asking that question in the first place?

Renais could have been a counterwagon to the Creature lynch if I joined it. Wheme used his vote loosely. The scum would have joined the mislynch. Joral was already voting. Renais was playing like lynhbait. But instead, I say that Renais isn't who I want lynched. And I stick on Creature. That's a big town-tell for me.

The counterwagon on Renais isn't going anywhere, so Random suddenly starts pushing Nico in 753. Why the sudden turn onto Nico? Nico's lurking, but that doesn't make Nico scummier than Renais or TPF. But that's where Random ends up turning. What's his intent?

Nico doesn't go anywhere, so Random votes TPF in 791. You follow him in 793. That's understandable, because TPF is scum, but it's also terrible timing. We need votes consolidating on Creature, yet Random is still looking for another lynch. Why?

It doesn't take much to see that Random doesn't want to lynch Creature. He looks for mislynches on Renais & Nico. That doesn't work, so he turns to TPF. His least-preferred lynch is Creature, the scum redirector and 1-shot strongman, so when he can't get a mislynch, he looks for a counterwagon on a worthless scum role.

Random never votes Creature.

The day ends in a no lynch.

This is why I've been suspecting Random the entire game.

I still don't see how this sequence ever comes from town. It's too calculated. Yes, town sometimes push mislynches, but they do so cluelessly. Town don't look for lynches on every viable mislynch (Renais & Nico) before eventually pushing a lynch on less valuable scum (identity cop vs redirector/strongman) when there's an obvious scum in front of their eyes (Creature). They also don't call that obvious scum "lynchbait" while pushing lynches on actual lynchbait (Renais & Nico) - there's a massive inconsistency in the way Random approaches that.

If I'm wrong about this sequence events, please explain. I don't want to make the wrong decision here.

Shoshin · Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:50 am

If everyone knows that scum bus Creature, why wouldn't scum defend him to look townie?

Shoshin · Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:13 am

Your notion that scum always bus Creature is wrong because if scum always do something, then they'll eventually stop doing it to get townread. People adapt their meta. That's the nature of this game.

Random's play is explainable from a scum perspective. There's motive (priority: mislynch townies, and if that doens't work, lynch less valuable scum). There's evidence of an informed perspective: going after mislynches before settling on less valuable scum. And there's inconsistent logic: avoiding lynch on valuable scum because it's "lynchbait" while pursuing lynches on actual lynchbait (Renais & Nico).

Can you explain Random's play from a town perspective? Why would town avoiding lynching Creature if he knows this is how Creature plays as scum? Why would town avoid lynching "lynchbait" yet push other lynchbait players (Renais & Nico)? What are the chances a clueless townie somehow manages to look for mislynches before settling on less valuable scum? Like, if there's 4 players who are lynchbait, 2 scum, 2 town, the clueless townie doesn't go for mislynches first before eventually settling on the less valuable scum. There's inside knowledge underlying that sequence.

Shoshin · Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:17 am

In post 4692, Shoshin wrote:@Nancy

You said earlier that Taly doesn't make sense with Creature. But in 681 he suggested moving away from the Creature lynch despite voting Creature early on D1. That's the most common pattern that scum fall into when distancing early in the game. They look for ways to justify another wagon, wait for town to start the wagon, and then hop on when safe to do so.

At the same time that Taly hints at town Creature, Random calls Creature lynchbait. The sequence of votes that follow are interesting.

Joral agrees with Taly/Random and votes Renais in 700.

Wheme responds by voting Creature in 710.

I vote Creature after Wheme in 721.

These are both town votes preventing a counterwagon on town Renais. There's no other way to read these votes. If I were scum, I could have joined Joral on Renais.

Random tries directing my attention to Renais in 739. The lynch is building on Creature but Random wants my attention on Renais. What's Random's intent? If I had voted Renais, do you think Random would have joined me? If not, what was the point of asking that question in the first place?

Renais could have been a counterwagon to the Creature lynch if I joined it. Wheme used his vote loosely. The scum would have joined the mislynch. Joral was already voting. Renais was playing like lynhbait. But instead, I say that Renais isn't who I want lynched. And I stick on Creature. That's a big town-tell for me.

The counterwagon on Renais isn't going anywhere, so Random suddenly starts pushing Nico in 753. Why the sudden turn onto Nico? Nico's lurking, but that doesn't make Nico scummier than Renais or TPF. But that's where Random ends up turning. What's his intent?

Nico doesn't go anywhere, so Random votes TPF in 791. You follow him in 793. That's understandable, because TPF is scum, but it's also terrible timing. We need votes consolidating on Creature, yet Random is still looking for another lynch. Why?

It doesn't take much to see that Random doesn't want to lynch Creature. He looks for mislynches on Renais & Nico. That doesn't work, so he turns to TPF. His least-preferred lynch is Creature, the scum redirector and 1-shot strongman, so when he can't get a mislynch, he looks for a counterwagon on a worthless scum role.

Random never votes Creature.

The day ends in a no lynch.

This is why I've been suspecting Random the entire game.

I still don't see how this sequence ever comes from town. It's too calculated. Yes, town sometimes push mislynches, but they do so cluelessly. Town don't look for lynches on every viable mislynch (Renais & Nico) before eventually pushing a lynch on less valuable scum (identity cop vs redirector/strongman) when there's an obvious scum in front of their eyes (Creature). They also don't call that obvious scum "lynchbait" while pushing lynches on actual lynchbait (Renais & Nico) - there's a massive inconsistency in the way Random approaches that.

If I'm wrong about this sequence events, please explain. I don't want to make the wrong decision here.

I gave you the links. I suggest just reading the game from post 681 to the nd of D1. It's not that many posts and it shows you everything you need to see about why I've been saying Random is scum all game.

It's also a bad look for Taly. He votes Creature early, suggests that maybe he's town later, but does nothing at all about it. He doesn't push Creature, nor does he defend him. He just sits there doing nothing. It's like he's hoping Creature won't be lynched but just in case he has his vote on Creature and it's not coming off until there's a viable counterwagon.

Shoshin · Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:22 am

In post 681, Vartsun wrote:Upon looking at the wagons, I'm thinking this ability is probably done by town within {the worst, Reality Check, Sajj}

If Creature were scum, then it'd make more sense to remove players ON his wagon, and to cause WIFOM.

A lot of the worst's, reality's, and Sajj's interactions in this game were amongst each other - as they were very active.

So now I'm little worried about the Creature wagon, nobody's outright defended it besides maybe Nancy before her vote, but I don't think people are engaging with that.

Wheme was the ONLY sensible vote on that wagon, but he's going for Joral... who I should ISO to strengthen my read there - because I think he's town, but I don't where his heads at in the game if he's not voting independently. Dislike the tgkfap vote much like the rest of their posts.

This is the key post, Nancy.

I don't want you to get upset at me, but I think you're misreading what Taly said here.

Taly says that the underground removal ability comes from town.

Then Taly contradicts himself by saying, "If Creature is scum, he would have removed players on his wagon," implying that the removal ability comes from scum, and saying that Creature's not scum because Creature didn't remove anyone from his wagon.

Then Taly concludes that Creature's probably town (doesn't want to say this outright, because of course he's waiting to see how town reacts). His reasoning: the wagon sucks. If it sucks, why is he on it?

Shoshin · Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:35 am

There's two possibilities: either Wisdom/Random are scum, or the worst is solo scum. In that situation, I think the right call 99% of the time is for me to vote Wisdom.

The reason I'm considering the possibility of the worst today is because if Wisdom's town, town has no chance of winning this tomorrow. I have little hope of dying tonight (yes, it's 50% in theory, but scum are just going to kill whoever isn't Nancy), and then they're going to mislynch me. This game went awry in ways I didn't expect, and that means I feel the burden of winning this game today or losing it entirely.

I think if we hadn't mislynched Sajj, the town wins this game 9 times out of 10. It was the key point in this game where I invested everything I had because it was so important to guaranteeing the win. After the mislynch, I think it's 50/50 and it mostly comes down to my decision today (as well as Nancy's).

Shoshin · Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:38 am

If Random is solo scum, the game is for sure lost no matter what I do today. LOL.

Shoshin · Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:49 am

That's not scummy. I'm being realistic.

Shoshin · Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:56 am

I'm gonna read some Wisdom scum games.

Shoshin · Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:58 am

In post 4714, Wisdom wrote:no you arent
Town-you votes me because thats whats optimal
Tomorrow is tomorrow

This loses sight of the forest for the trees.

The whole piont of this discussion is to figure out what's optimal.

It's weird that you want me to vote you, though. That's not towny at all.

Shoshin · Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:00 am

Looking at this first:

viewtopic.php?f=83&t=76296

Shoshin · Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:12 am

In the scum PM, Wisdom says to kill Math because town can easily change their reads at any moment. So the whole, "I'd never kill Reality because she townread me" bit is straight-up bullshit.

Shoshin · Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:14 am

Wisdom interacts with scum partner in the thread quite a bit, so that's consistent with his interactions here.

Shoshin · Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:17 am

According to Math that game (who is a reputable source), Wisdom is very strong scum who heavily manipulates his meta. So all that stuff about how "scum always bus Creature" is more bullshit from Wisdom. Wisdom knows scum manipulate meta because he does it himself.

Shoshin · Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:35 am

I've been framed, Nancy.

The #1 thing that should tell you I'm town here is the way I tried to stop the Sajj mislynch. If I had been successful, town wins this game 9 times out of 10. Think about that.

If I can convince you I'm town, we can win this game 100% by lynching Wisdom. Otherwise, we have to make the right call today.

Shoshin · Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:40 am

Regardless of alignment, Random played this game very poorly.

He spent all of D1 looking to mislynch, until eventually settling on less valuable scum. That's poor play as either alignment.

Then he spends the early part of D2 going after Nico, the obvious cop. Then he goes after me instead of Creature.

Then he lurks most of the game, occassionally chiming in to push pro-scum objectives - lynching Angel, calling me scummy, pushing my lynch over Chick's but eventually bussing the inevitable, mislynching Sajj for mechanical reasons without any critical thought, calling my reasons for defending Sajj scummy, etc.

He's blatantly scum. The real question is whether he's ever this bad as town.