Starcraft Mafia: Legacy of the Void [Game Over]

[u r a person 2]

I'm jamming with a combination of FL and RCE reads after reading

Liger_Zero
Shadowlesscloud
Cerberus v666

all ping me as scummy

VOTE: shadowless

will play tomorrow

[u r a person 2]

I don't really like URAs 1 post.
I think he needs to impress tonight!

I might actually want to lynch URA here soon.

I've just been super busy this last week or so, mate.

[u r a person 2]

He said he’d play today.

Hopefully he gets 2 guilties again.

no guilties yet but I like how the game is going. I'm town reading you again, and I think with a better understanding than last game. If I'm right there then that means ppg are v. likely town because of your read on them

[u r a person 2]

UNVOTE: I think BP is a scummy claim regardless. But it can be tested tomorrow so there are better options probably. Not named Liger preferrably.

Who would you rather switch to if not Liger?

Chenn probably.

Chenn probably.

I could hammer Chen.

chenn is often marked as the go-to mislynch. I haven't seen anything scum-indicative here yet

[u r a person 2]

I don't think Liger is scum btw.

im agreeing with you i think

we should lynch through the bullet proof claim that was total bs

[u r a person 2]

RCE, I think sometimes we out-game ourselves when simply voting scum is a solid, time-tested strategy

Consider that recent mini-normal run by NSG, viewtopic.php?f=23&t=78917

Scum was at L-1, claimed mod would confirm him as IC the next day. Simplest example of a role claim being self-resolving

But the mechanics of the game meant that town would have been better off just lynching the guy they thought was scum

Let's try something new and just lynch scum

[u r a person 2]

chenn is often marked as the go-to mislynch. I haven't seen anything scum-indicative here yet

Chenn was super obvtown in Nomination Mafia, was that an unusual game for him?

- TBD

Dunno, didn't read it. I got a D1 lynch through on claimed and uncc'd doctor!chenn in a game a month or so ago, though, as an example. He is very often targeted for a mislynch.

What about his play made him obv town to you? I'd love to improve my chenn read

[u r a person 2]

Ico, do you think we should lynch shadowless today?

[u r a person 2]

Vedith you scum read me at one point or another in nearly every game, and I'm always town. Could you tell me what you're looking for in town!me so that I can spoon feed it back to you?

[u r a person 2]

I feel like the way I said it had more oomph, so I'm surprised you felt the need to paraphrase it

[u r a person 2]

I don't know if wow is on the menu for this game, mate. I'm shooting for a solid C here after D1 with the hope that I'll be around more D2

I did browse around the starcraft wiki last night and I'm less against leaving shadow until later than I was

shiro, volxen/mj, Hydra TBD are all good votes here I think

VOTE: hydra tbd

[u r a person 2]

A50, got any scum reads in shiro, volxen, Hydra TBD?

[u r a person 2]

Why were you so quick to want to lynch him through his claim on day one, given that you were in Starcraft 2? Remember that in that game there were two town-aligned one-shot BP's -- Michael Scott (Auro and I) and Tibor & Lumia (Gamma Emerald and Brassherald)/Firebinger both had that role (see: Starcraft 2 Mod Thread). That game was 11 town vs 3 scum, and there are at least 11 townies in this game, so it's very likely that there is at least one town-aligned BP role in this game.

- Volxen

I don't presume Krazy to be so predictable. There doesn't have to be a town bp this game. I certainly wouldn't say that it is very likely that there is one. Perhaps it makes it more likely for there

not

to be one. Why don't you walk me through your process for doing meta analysis on the mod?

[u r a person 2]

A50, got any scum reads in shiro, volxen, Hydra TBD?

Shiro maybe. I have town leans on the other two.

Why the town read on volxen?

[u r a person 2]

Does someone like that fit in the starcraft lore?

Yes. Also yes to anything else possibly fitting into starcraft lore. There are a million character storylines with every trope twist in existence.

[u r a person 2]

yeah that fits the bp role

[u r a person 2]

hi can i get an answer and finish my interaction with A50 before we analyze said interaction? thanks much, friends

[u r a person 2]

lol i guess that was asking too much~~

[u r a person 2]

well, you did fp me :p

what does fp mean?

[u r a person 2]

Did I say it was a town "read"??

Town read usually is stronger than Town lean for me, and the latter could be a general feeling about the tone with nothing specific.

What don't you like about him though?

I didn't mean to misconstrue the strength of your reads, and I apologize for the mishap.

Could you point me to a post or two that give you that feeling or demonstrate a tone you're town reading? I'll go through why I think their scum after catching up

[u r a person 2]

Hi, Bubbles is suspicious of Volxen and thinks Liger may be town. I would prefer HER to give her reasons why.

This is where my gut is at rn, too

[u r a person 2]

Spoiler:

Volxen MJL combo pack can join my town block.

I'm being drafted into a townblock before I've even posted? That's a first.

- Volxen

Volxen MJL combo pack can join my town block.

I'm being drafted into a townblock before I've even posted? That's a first.

- Volxen

Are you accepting?

I suppose I'll tentatively accept it for now.

- Volxen

I really don't like these two posts. It's like the cat that ate the canary =/

[u r a person 2]

p.edit https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cat_that_ate_the_canary

(idiomatic) A person who appears self-satisfied or smug, especially while concealing something mischievous, prohibited, or private.

Yeah, this exactly. How nice it must feel walking into the thread already in a town bloc. That first post is not particularly well concealed joy at the good fortune he is experiencing.

Spoiler:

Bubbles checking in!

Volxen, you've clearly been online and posting since the game started; yet none of your three posts contain a stance on any other slot. You also lack an RVS vote. Should that concern me?

Agree that ShadowlessCloud's entrance seems slightly scummy. However, 131 I see coming more often from town than scum; I haven't been online with my other heads yet. I'll discuss and move the vote if they concur. 183 also I think comes from town.

Also liking Alchemist21 for town

for now

.

-Bubbles

I think RCEnigma is likely town, as I have played several games with him and this seems like town!him so far. Alchemist seems towny so far as well.

Nancy seems towny so far, but after Nomination Mafia I doubt I will be able to get a strong read on you individually on day one, considering I initially incorrectly townread you early on in that game. So you’re null for me for now.

I think it’s suspect how Liger_Zero voted for Almost50 with no explanation initially (see 256)

after you voted for and then unvoted Almost50 (see 250 and 254), especially after repeatedly saying “no one is scummy” (see 19, 141, 243, etc.) He did then follow-up and point out things that he found suspect about Almost50 (see 322), but they were mostly related to Almost50’s relaxed tone and the fact that he joked around a lot and “buddied” up to Flavor Leaf and shared some of his reads and sheeped people by voting for Shadow.

I don’t think he really has a good case on Almost50, as I have played several games with town!Almost50 (Hope Plus One, Starcraft Mafia 2, and Unstable Mafia) and he had the same relaxed/joking posting style in those games, so at best it’s NAI for him.

- Volxen

This case is scummy for a number of reasons.
Timing - If you've got a real scum read on someone with reasons and posts to back it up, you get it out there! You don't wait to be assigned homework to put it all together

Content - Bolded statements are all IIOC. Additionally, the gist of this large paragraph is that Liger made a naked vote, and then later backed it up with a bad reason. But is there reason to believe Liger knows A50's playstyle? The tone of Volxen's post doesn't imply that volxen believes this. But then why would the bad read be scummy?

[u r a person 2]

I see you have Liger_Zero as a townread. Do you think his push on Almost50 is genuine? I could perhaps understand him thinking that Almost50 is the scummiest player in this game if he had no prior experience with Almost50, as Almost50 does have an unconventional playstyle that may inadvertently make him come off as scummy to people unfamiliar with him. But Liger_Zero mentioned in 452 that he replaced into Almost50's town slot in a previous game recently, so he should be aware that Almost50 does the things he has done in this game as town. That's a large part of why I find his push on Almost50 suspect.

ah I forgot about this bit so nix that part from above

[u r a person 2]

Why were you so quick to want to lynch him through his claim on day one, given that you were in Starcraft 2? Remember that in that game there were two town-aligned one-shot BP's -- Michael Scott (Auro and I) and Tibor & Lumia (Gamma Emerald and Brassherald)/Firebinger both had that role (see: Starcraft 2 Mod Thread). That game was 11 town vs 3 scum, and there are at least 11 townies in this game, so it's very likely that there is at least one town-aligned BP role in this game.

I pointed out why this was bad earlier. I don't think that town!volxen thinks, "there was this role in the last game so there will very likely be that role in this game and everyone else should be assuming that to be true as well. People who don't assume that have a a scum agenda." like that's absurd

[u r a person 2]

This is the Hydra head of Hydra TBD checking in.

Jesus Christ, there’s already 20 pages of content to wade through.

- Hydra

This entrance is screaming awkward scum

[u r a person 2]

Caught up now

Town: Alchemist, Liger, RCEnigma, Vedith, Powerpuffs

Scum: Chennisden, Shadowless, Shiro

- Hydra

No catchup posts + easy scum reads is =/

[u r a person 2]

Nancy was in Nomination Mafia?

- Hydra

This pings me and I can't figure out why.

[u r a person 2]

Spoiler:

I see you have Liger_Zero as a townread. Do you think his push on Almost50 is genuine? I could perhaps understand him thinking that Almost50 is the scummiest player in this game if he had no prior experience with Almost50, as Almost50 does have an unconventional playstyle that may inadvertently make him come off as scummy to people unfamiliar with him. But Liger_Zero mentioned in 452 that he replaced into Almost50's town slot in a previous game recently, so he should be aware that Almost50 does the things he has done in this game as town. That's a large part of why I find his push on Almost50 suspect.

- Volxen

Yes, I read it as genuine. Or more accurately, it didn't come across as being made in bad faith, even though I don't scumread A50.

Replacing into your own slot is different than trying to get a read on a different slot. You're less likely to seriously analyze your own slot, since you already know your own alignment.

Liger also said he didn't read A50's posts in this other game, which I believe, since that game was pretty long and Liger replaced in fairly late in the game IIRC.

I think it’s suspect how Liger_Zero voted for Almost50 with no explanation initially (see 256) after you voted for and then unvoted Almost50 (see 250 and 254), especially after repeatedly saying “no one is scummy” (see 19, 141, 243, etc.) <snip>

- Volxen

Are you just looking at individual ISOs?

243 comes before A50 made any posts in the game, and 256 comes after A50 made his entrance. Given the context, it's fine to go from "no one is scummy" in one post to thinking A50 is scummy in the next.

- Hydra

This post is actually pretty townie

[u r a person 2]

I think I'm reversing course on TBD for a hot minute

VOTE: volxen

[u r a person 2]

I also am scum reading alchemist.

Anyone else scum reading alchemist?

[u r a person 2]

No, not really.

Why not? I think he's been pretty fluffy

[u r a person 2]

I think there are great reasons for voting volxen, and I hope that more people will

But MJL didn't want to play this game and, while I don't know why/how she ended up in this hydra, but I believe that she was never planning on being a very active participant regardless of role

[u r a person 2]

boy that sentence structure tho

[u r a person 2]

HI FLAVORLEAF

Why not volxen?

[u r a person 2]

I'mma let you finish lynching either Chenn or Shiro

but Volxen is one of the greatest lynches of all time

[u r a person 2]

but Volxen is one of the greatest lynches of all time

sell it to me

posts 707-712

[u r a person 2]

not seeing it but it might be because i dont know volxen at all

do you have experience with him

not really no

[u r a person 2]

anyone keeping track of the vote count? I could use one

[u r a person 2]

URAP, you’re scum aren’t you?

Not this time =(

[u r a person 2]

Liger, what's your actual read on volxen and why?

[u r a person 2]

I don't think I said that. I think I asked people why they were voting for Shiro and I said that I could see a case but that the case would be hypocritical of me to make. Between Chennisden, Shiro, and my slot, I think we're posting kind of on par with one another. I asked about Shiro because maybe someone knows them well and can justify why this behavior would be scummy.

Spoiler:

[u r a person 2]

ok. more votes on this, please

[u r a person 2]

that progression from Chenn makes perfect sense when you lay it out like that?

[u r a person 2]

Alright, maybe Volxen/MJL is town?

Chen is contradicting themselves which is really strange.

So, UNVOTE:

VOTE: Chennisden

I can relate to MJL having trouble getting into the game, so eh NAI. That happens to me to in some games. where I’m lost and have no clue what I’m doing but I like Volxen’s case.

It’s similar to the convo Bubbes and I were having about them.

~Buttercup

It's not really a contradiction?

I'm not assuming that this is what went through Chenn's head, but the narrative Volxen is promoting is that

-Chenn was hesitant to vote volxen because he felt scum were pushing it
-Chenn looked at a viable alternative
-Chenn decided they town read that alternative
-So they went to the volxen vote in spite of their misgivings

Where's the issue?

[u r a person 2]

Hey, Volxen, I'm glad you're back! I really want to hear a few of MJ's strong opinions because I want to know if that was a poorly considered throw away line.

Think you guys could do your little huddle thing so that we could get that?

[u r a person 2]

that fits with what I said. ???

I think you're trying to make something where there is nothing

[u r a person 2]

Like if he doesn't like the wagons, but is scum reading you independent of the people on your wagon...

[u r a person 2]

Volxen is still scum, and because of that I'd bet shiro and chenn are both probably town.

Ya'll should step up and make a volxen lynch happen.

[u r a person 2]

wow i didn't expect that snapping at the thread to work so well.

Good. More votes on volxen!

[u r a person 2]

why are you sure volxen is town?

[u r a person 2]

Someone vote Chennis

don't do it; it's a trap!

[u r a person 2]

Volxen/MJL are clearly town.

How's that, now?

[u r a person 2]

Before you said you liked the chenn wagon because you didn't like the people on volxen. But how are they clearly town?

[u r a person 2]

why not?

[u r a person 2]

I felt most of it was pretty easy to say as scum

and the read on me, talking of my read accuracy felt like a pocket attempt or a cheeky scum admission considering my most vocal read this game is that they are scum.

[u r a person 2]

like it's the kind of thing I would say as scum

[u r a person 2]

Never seen the Alien variant before but I’ve heard of it. Don’t really wanna lynch Volxen, still think you’re a better lynch.

I would probably join a last-minute wagon on person but don’t really want to draw out another claim.

still scummy

[u r a person 2]

Moongrass why

If all his reads are OMGUS that power isn't going to be aimed well enough to average better than VT chennisden, if it's true.

Whilst it sounds plenty like a provided claim.

also scummy

[u r a person 2]

VOTE: Liger

townie

[u r a person 2]

Chen are you missing a couple of words from your role title?

townie

[u r a person 2]

vote volxen, sheep me, win game

[u r a person 2]

Okay, so I guess I have to do Volxen's laundry for the next week. The Power Puff Girls were in fact not scum.

--MJL

still scummy af and I almost don't even want to deal with Liger,wis,alch because this should have been lynched yesterday

[u r a person 2]

And this whole thing made me forget about u r a person 2 so there’s him

lol you can't be serious that I'm a scum read after EoD1

get lost

[u r a person 2]

I dunno, maybe me pushing hard for a volxen lynch (which is still a scum slot btw)

[u r a person 2]

VOTE: alchemist

[u r a person 2]

VOTE: Volxen

[u r a person 2]

VOTE: alchemist

[u r a person 2]

what are you doing

showing who i think scum are with votes

[u r a person 2]

VOTE: alchemist

VOTE: Volxen

VOTE: alchemist

Ok you can be next after Wisdom.

Back up why you think this is scummy because it's not and this post was super bad from you

[u r a person 2]

what are you doing

this was a townie response

[u r a person 2]

*nods head* Ok.

You don’t like that I have a guilty on wisdom so you’re ramping up your aggression on me hoping that nobody would think scum would be that foolish.

I also have a mild suspicion that with pintu gone you think you can get away with a lot more than otherwise.

so basically you think it's scummy because I don't believe your claim

and something about pintu that doesn't make sense because we've only played twice and he was scum both times so like why would I be concerned about his presence over anyone elses?

[u r a person 2]

ugh i guess it doesn't make much sense for scum to make that claim unless there's a role they really need to save elsewhere
and i was scum reading his predecessor
VOTE: wisdom
l-1

[u r a person 2]

Yeah if it wasn't clear btw. I am not a cop. That was a fake claim.
I was going for a gambit to bait a night kill and I really thought Wisdom was town.

VOTE: liger

bad play if true

[u r a person 2]

Yes, and I don't care a bit about it.

If you want to lynch me for lying go ahead.

I do. Town would have retracted after the guilty from alch. No way town!you would have thought you could have still been the night kill after giving a false inno that scum knew they hadn't interfered with.

[u r a person 2]

Ohh, Almost50 is FL mason.
Then okay I guess scum are in Hydra TBD and Iconeum.

Maybe Cerberus if I am wrong on one of those.

Why don't you case these guys for us if you're town

[u r a person 2]

is it bad that I read MJ's recent post and saw the whole thing as an argument for why Liger might actually be town?

[u r a person 2]

uggggghhhhhhhh did you really make that play

[u r a person 2]

UNVOTE:

[u r a person 2]

I really don't think this role thing is gonna help us here. I want some substance not this other business. I want to leave this Wis/Alch/Me on side for a day or two. I think it will sort itself out.

Alchemist, who else are you scumreading?

this like only comes from fake claiming town lol you should have just retracted

[u r a person 2]

oh that post was by volxen? Can someone tell me again why we're not just lynching volxen?

[u r a person 2]

oooh maybe they're scum together and that was the whole point of the post and why volxen didn't react to my unvote

Somebody stop me I'm off the rails

[u r a person 2]

y ty sir

[u r a person 2]

VOTE: liger
L-1

Volxen also scum

[u r a person 2]

UNVOTE: i think liger is probably flipping town here

I could lynch pops tbh

[u r a person 2]

VOTE: pops

im not looking for any trouble, though

[u r a person 2]

See: PPG was NKed and Volxen has had a hall pass for doing whatever they like ever since.

I was going to say this. I do prefer volxen over Pops, but I also prefer pops over liger so i didn't say it

[u r a person 2]

You posted from your PT that you had myself and URAP as scum. And Alchemist investigated URAP and was surprised to find that it cleared URAP. So maybe every player in this game should play with an equal dose of humility. It's a great tool against natural confirmation bias, whether you're having a bad game or the best game of your life.

i think i'm having a pretty okay game tbh

I was not on chenn

and i was on wisdom

[u r a person 2]

it stands for look at me im so town

[u r a person 2]

But more importantly I really think the logic is getting too Rube Goldberg and we're getting pretty far from urap's suggestion he made on D1 or D2 that a really good strategy is to just lynch scum.

I do feel like this is aimed at pushing me to vote volxen which to be fair, is probabably a reasonable thing for pops to try and get me to do regardless of their alignment

[u r a person 2]

a50 how about just lynching volxen

[u r a person 2]

okay. I'm fine where i am

[u r a person 2]

Icon/Urap/liger/volxen: Why are any of you town?

well alch has an inno on me, so I've got that going for me ;P

[u r a person 2]

Also I am not sure pops flipping scum would clear me? I am really wondering why many people think that. I don't want to argue I am scum, but I don't get how pops flipping scum would clear me.

i don't think people think it will clear you. I think people just think you're town

[u r a person 2]

VOTE: cerb

[u r a person 2]

Punishing players for playing well is bad game design.

Giving incentive to a player to play in a lazy, lynchbaity manner is bad game design.

Otherwise, game seemed interesting. gg town.

[u r a person 2]

also, chenn should never in a million years have been lynched.

[u r a person 2]

This isn't strictly relevant because it's about M:tG, but this setup goes against five or six different lessons mentioned in the video. Worth a thought.

Spoiler:

[u r a person 2]

Also, I saw that some people argued that scum utilizing cerb's role was a mistake on their part.

If that's true, then having optimal scum play be to NOT utilize their primary role is also bad game design.

[u r a person 2]

You're right that I tilt-replaced. It took me a long time to figure out exactly why I felt the setup was so bad, and in the end it wasn't because of a flavor reveal. I couldn't post in the dead thread, so this is the only outlet for me to put these thoughts into.

I don't think you were wrong to try to push boundaries. It did kill the fun for me, and the game being balanced around the role doesn't change that. It feels shitty to lynch correctly and have that be anti-town. I'm not even sure it would be possible to avoid lynching cerb at the right time. The game was large enough that he would have had to play very poorly to get lynched prior to activating (scum never busses him day 1, 2), and town is not in a position to deduce that lynching scum is anti-town.

[u r a person 2]

Also, I saw that some people argued that scum utilizing cerb's role was a mistake on their part.

If that's true, then having optimal scum play be to NOT utilize their primary role is also bad game design.

I wasn't saying that utilizing the role at all was bad, I was saying scumclaiming to lynch someone who could have gone down anyway and who was not a strong PR was not an optimal usage of the role.

fair enough

[u r a person 2]

and, to correct the record, I replaced out because the game felt bastard. I've since been corrected as to that viewpoint.

[u r a person 2]

Your design analysis seems reasonable, well thought out, and certainly better than I would have been able to do to balance that role.

If no-lynching is generally anti-town, then lynching scum just to find out you've no lynched is also anti-town. That scum was unable to play around the associatives doesn't change that, I don't think? As much as it is anti-town, it's also anti-fun. And I think you can see that in how after a few pages where town was dealing with the aftermath of the flip, the game stagnated. At one point you had to ask the game to not make you prod three players at once.

If you look at the video, one of the lessons he pushes is "don't design something just to prove you can"
Another is "interesting != fun" and a third is "make what's fun also be the correct play" Lynching scum is fun for town. Working to not get lynched is fun for scum. That's the basis of this game we play.

In respect for you and for the effort you put into this, I'll leave the last word to you here, if you'd like it. I'm happy to agree to disagree, and I'd also like to thank you for showing restraint in how you described my replacement in the dead thread. You could have painted me far worse.