Guns & Roses III [Game over]

[Amrun]

VOTE: Pretentious


For that one mini normal. You know the one.

[Amrun]

He’s Flavor Leaf

[Amrun]

@GL do you think 35 was genuine?

Why ask this of GL in particular?

[Amrun]

And I think you misunderstand, even if you knew already there were 3 scum you may not have been explicitly thinking about that when joking that the scumteam is 2 people. Which would still be a townslip bc I don't think scum would forget that so easily

I think this is a good reason Mena is town but not a good reason that whatsit is scum.

[Amrun]

Mena just admitted that he will have checked the number of scum regardless of alignment tho
So I personally think Mena is null for that statement

Yes, but I agree with GL’s assessment that it’s a more likely mental mistake to come from town. It’s not a town”slip” but I do TR both Mena and GL for making me consider it more deeply, which doesn’t seem scum motivated in and of itself.

[Amrun]

Mena just admitted that he will have checked the number of scum regardless of alignment tho
So I personally think Mena is null for that statement

Do you scumread Mena?

[Amrun]

@Datisi: Yes, that’s as you. Forgot your name and I was too tired to look back. Sorry.

And I don’t think it’s 100% Menal is town, but townpoints there, yes.

[Amrun]

um no ChooChoo this way

VOTE: Creature

You ignored my question.

VOTE: alimdia

[Amrun]

@alimdia: Sorry about that - missed it!

I’m still happy with my vote for the weird vote that followed.

[Amrun]

amrun im glad you shifted back to your old avi

I lost it. This isn’t quite it but it’s a troll one I made based on it. I found this one so...!

It was only meant to be a temporary change to brag about my scummy but then I left site.

[Amrun]

maybe i'm not seeing it from the perspective of someone who thinks he's being buddied, but GL's iso looks sound to me

unvoting my rvs

UNVOTE: GL

Why bother with this and not placing your vote elsewhere?

[Amrun]

VOTE: AaronFrost

His posts read very forced. His progression on creature also sucks.

[Amrun]

I'm always slow to vote beyond rvs, just a really slow starter in general

Tbh I don't have any major scumleans at the moment, creature is the only one whose really pinged me at all but not enough to vote yet

What is “enough to vote” by your criteria?

[Amrun]

Is non transparent reads scummy?

[Amrun]

VOTE: AaronFrost

His posts read very forced. His progression on creature also sucks.

Can you elaborate?

Elaborate re: creature?

He calls out creature for something and then commits the exact same offense very quickly by voting Iconeum, who is, IMO, lower hanging fruit than Creature.

[Amrun]

He calls out creature for something and then commits the exact same offense very quickly by voting Iconeum, who is, IMO, lower hanging fruit than Creature.

Do you agree that AF had any sort of point against Creature though? Since you word it as an offense? I do see what you're saying about AF tbf

I do, I just think scum would be more worried about how they appear and that Creature will sort himself as the game goes on. In other words, Creature seems like he doesn’t gaf and was posting whatever popped into his mind and probably forgot about AF in that moment.

AF, on the other hand, seems to me like he cares how he comes off - a lot.

[Amrun]

In other words, I can very easily see AF’s posting as scum motivated; attempt to capitalize on obvious town mistakes, but place vote on most likely mislynch. Obviously that’s untrue if Ico ends up flipping scum. I’m null on him currently.

[Amrun]

Wow, Pretentious. Are there any stances you DO want to take?

[Amrun]

Wow, Pretentious. Are there any stances you DO want to take?

I don’t take stances, I just say my thoughts, and explain what I think is going on on a gamestate level.

That would be fine if your posts actually were saying something.



@salamence: what does “not entirely scum” mean?

[Amrun]

Like is he 3/4 scum?

[Amrun]

Wow, Pretentious. Are there any stances you DO want to take?

I don’t take stances, I just say my thoughts, and explain what I think is going on on a gamestate level.

That would be fine if your posts actually were saying something.



@salamence: what does “not entirely scum” mean?

They say a lot more than ya think. Gotta look at it on a deeper level.

I know exactly what they say. Don’t assume what other people understand.

They are full of words, and I actually think they are more genuine thoughts than I’m used to seeing from you. Your brain must be very disordered. What’s more, it makes me think you are more likely town here.

I do appreciate seeing where you’re at on things even if you don’t necessarily have a conclusion, but I think you need to concentrate a little harder on having, and sharing, more coherent thoughts. Meandering around with no conclusions doesn’t really solve anything.

[Amrun]

@Menal: That case is far too boring to spend my time on tbh but I’ll touch on a few salient points.

Not answering a direct question is usually scummy, or at least belligerent, but it does depend on what the question was. In this case, it was me being a derp and missing the answer. The vote was still weird, though.

My experience with Pret is 100% limited to a game I replaced into where he was already dead and was obvscum. Just for reference. Tonally, it’s completely different from this game. He started on a more angry alt too, so it is so off here I can’t use that meta really.

Even if I had 100 years of experience with him, trying to sort him would not be strange, or scummy. This is a bizarre stance to take; however, I get the impression that you rely a lot on meta so I think that’s NAI from you. I, however, think meta is trash.

As for AF, he might be scum, might not. I’m not familiar with him enough to sort playstyle from alignment indicative actions right away. So I’ll pressure him as I please, thank you.

[Amrun]

@Menal: That case is far too boring to spend my time on tbh but I’ll touch on a few salient points.

Not answering a direct question is usually scummy, or at least belligerent, but it does depend on what the question was. In this case, it was me being a derp and missing the answer. The vote was still weird, though.

My experience with Pret is 100% limited to a game I replaced into where he was already dead and was obvscum. Just for reference. Tonally, it’s completely different from this game. He started on a more angry alt too, so it is so off here I can’t use that meta really.

Even if I had 100 years of experience with him, trying to sort him would not be strange, or scummy. This is a bizarre stance to take; however, I get the impression that you rely a lot on meta so I think that’s NAI from you. I, however, think meta is trash.

As for AF, he might be scum, might not. I’m not familiar with him enough to sort playstyle from alignment indicative actions right away. So I’ll pressure him as I please, thank you.

I mean (1) the fact you went “eh still a weird vote” feels like you were looking for an excuse to vote him and idk why that’s natural? Also I disagree that not answering a direct question is scummy when the simplest explanation is that the person just missed it?

(2) I don’t think that trying to sort him is strange/scummy and I don’t think I said anything implying I thought that? I think that trying to sort him specifically in the way you claim you are is weird and doesn’t make sense from anyone who’s played with him even once

(3) also feel like you’re now backing off AF that you’ve been called on it when I think your earlier posts implied greater confidence on scum!him

1) It depends on the question and the context. In this particular case, I was trying to reaction test alim but it didn’t work because I’m dumb. I kept my vote there because the vote was still the thing that pinged me the most up to that point.

2) I don’t even get what you’re trying to say here. You are complaining that my sorting methods aren’t always transparent? Ok. Don’t care.

3) I don’t often find that adding pressure to see what shakes out is very effective if it’s wishy washy. Do you? OMGUS aside, I don’t think you are scum because the crazy tinfoil hat theory about suspecting people who town read you. But I don’t think your effort to sort me is a good one.

[Amrun]

As for AF, he might be scum, might not. I’m not familiar with him enough to sort playstyle from alignment indicative actions right away. So I’ll pressure him as I please, thank you.

Can you elaborate more on how my posts feel forced then? Talk about my progression on Creature as well. How are you reading him atm?

I already did this in a lot of detail, actually. This does not read like a genuine effort to sort because you didn’t even read my ISO with any intention.

[Amrun]

Alim: Why is asking questions without sharing your conclusions scummy, especially this early game?

[Amrun]

@AaronFrost:

Was your vote on Iconeum an attempt to reaction fish?

[Amrun]

In other words, I can very easily see AF’s posting as scum motivated; attempt to capitalize on obvious town mistakes, but place vote on most likely mislynch. Obviously that’s untrue if Ico ends up flipping scum. I’m null on him currently.

Also as I look at this it actually seems kind of perspective slippy? Like calling AFF out for capitalising on “obvious town mistakes” sounds a little too much like she knows they’re town, esp considering her null read on icon? Plus calling icon the most likely mislynch

This is exactly what I couldn't put my finger on when Amrun answered my questions last night. I think if you're going to label what Creature did as the "exact same offense" then you'd be scumreading him too regardless of who AF voted for. The more I think about it, AF seems more and more town and Amrun/Creature are looking more sus. There's been two instances of Amrun turning suspicion away from Creature, once when she voted almidia for his vote on Creature and then again in post 284. Like I'm having a hard time articulating it exactly but it seems to come from the perspective of someone who knows Creature's posts were kinda scummy, acknowledges it because she has to, but doesn't want to follow up on it.

VOTE: Amrun

This is a terrible post.

A) What Creature did and what AF are similar, but not exactly the same; even if they were exactly the same, it is absolutely fine to read people differently for doing the same thing. I never found what Creature did scummy; I found what AF did scummy because he supposedly thought what Creature did was scummy and then turned around and did it himself more egregiously.

B) Creature’s posts are not scummy. They are extremely typical creature posts. I think creature is more likely to flip town than scum, but creature has not received any significant pressure, so this part is nonsensical. I’m defending him from what? For what purpose? WHY would I, as scum, think Creature was scummy but not want to follow up on it? Why would I do that as town?

The only feasible response is that you think I am scum with creature. Therefore, why wouldn’t you vote Creature? By your own logic, my scumminess is predicated upon this so-called avoidance of wanting to pursue him, therefore Creature should be flipped first.

You seem to be an odd duck that matches to your own drummer, so I’m not sure yet that any of this is NAI. However, it is still bad.

[Amrun]

You know what? Yes.

VOTE: DogWatch

Inb4 “this vote is scummy”

[Amrun]

@AaronFrost:

Was your vote on Iconeum an attempt to reaction fish?

Yes

Who were you hoping to get a reaction from?

[Amrun]

@AaronFrost:

Was your vote on Iconeum an attempt to reaction fish?

Yes

Who were you hoping to get a reaction from?

The main goal was to see how Icon would respond.

What do you think of his response?

[Amrun]

AF: what did you think of creature now?

[Amrun]

@alim: it is pretty self explanatory. I asked you a question, and voted you when you ignored it to see what you would do. It didn’t work because I’m an idiot and you actually answered which totally shifted the type of response you had.

[Amrun]

My gut says S_S / sal is TvT

[Amrun]

@Menal: That case is far too boring to spend my time on tbh but I’ll touch on a few salient points.

Not answering a direct question is usually scummy, or at least belligerent, but it does depend on what the question was. In this case, it was me being a derp and missing the answer. The vote was still weird, though.
---

I mean (1) the fact you went “eh still a weird vote” feels like you were looking for an excuse to vote him and idk why that’s natural? Also I disagree that not answering a direct question is scummy when the simplest explanation is that the person just missed it?
---

1) It depends on the question and the context. In this particular case, I was trying to reaction test alim but it didn’t work because I’m dumb. I kept my vote there because the vote was still the thing that pinged me the most up to that point.
---

Eh, any reason why you didn't say so about the reaction test in 339 right away?

Do you fundamentally understand joe reaction tests are intended to work? Basically everything I post is some sort of reaction test. That’s how the game is played.

[Amrun]

maybe partly that
I think someone also outlined (was it Mena? idk) that they appeared to be much more sure of their vote of Aaron at first and then did were like "might be scum might not lol"
i didn't exactly like their response to Mena's case either

the Dogwatch vote was (1) weird - they didn't show any signs of not SRing Aaron, and are kinda just asking hm questions but I don't think they're elaborating of their read there much?
and in 390 they said

You seem to be an odd duck that matches to your own drummer, so

I’m not sure yet that any of this is NAI.

However, it is still bad.

which kinda reads weird, like groundwork for justifying a vote there later?

(2) and the fact they were like "inb4 this vote scummy" is just meh imo
like
they knew someone was gonna say something
so better
joke about it first

Can you actually provide any examples of scum acting like this?

Listen, early day 1, if anyone is totally sure of ANY read, they’re just full of shit or scum. However, it is not in my nature to play like s_s and wait and watch. I poke and poke and wait until that poking produces something. It usually does. But you have to poke hard.

[Amrun]

@Datisi: Why would I? For what purpose? It would have been a waste of time typing the words. I don’t make a typical practice of belaboring everything I do to try and generate reads. Some of it works, some of it doesn’t. I typically only explain it if I think it went somewhere that will make sense to other people, and I want them to follow me. Explaining ALL of my thought processes has only negative utility, not positive.

As for the scum behavior thing, eh. I’m sure some scum has done it somewhere. I would still posit it’s not especially common.

I’m also not threatened in any capacity and have no reason to change my reads or behavior for any reason. In the unlikely event I am mislynched, there will be scum on the wagon 100%, so hopefully town can still make use of it. I’ll still scumhunt and share when and if I see fit.

[Amrun]

I’m not being aggressive in any way, though?

I’d rather be questioned for my actions than pre-empt any criticism. Watching people read me is a great way to get reads.

I don’t think you understand my playstyle, which is ok.

[Amrun]

Do you fundamentally understand joe reaction tests are intended to work? Basically everything I post is some sort of reaction test. That’s how the game is played.

Can you actually provide any examples of scum acting like this?

I’m also not threatened in any capacity and have no reason to change my reads or behavior for any reason.

These parts gave me the overdefensive/aggressive vibe fwiwi.

What's your read on me?

Well, I mean, I know text can be read subjectively and there’s not much I can do about that, but I don’t read those posts that way and that’s not how I intended them. The first two are just basic questions.

As for you, I have a town lean on you. I would bet town, but it’s not overly strong. I think you basic miscomprehension of my playstyle is NAI and you seem more likely to be trying to sort than to capitalize.

[Amrun]

Maybe so. Maybe I'm reading too much into "can you provide examples" vs "can you actually provide any examples".

Hm. I was a bit weirded out by 470 because the last part read almost tmi-y wrt my alignment, because I don't think I've been extremely Towny this game, especially from your pov since I've just sheeped another player onto you with a very boring case.

It wasn’t a read I would have organically shared. I shared it because you asked me to. How could that possibly strike you as TMI?

Plenty of town sheep boring af cases, FYI.

[Amrun]

You saying that you had a Townlean on me when I asked you about your read is not tmi. As I said, I was referring to this as tmi-y:

I don’t think you understand my playstyle, which is ok.

It struck me was weird because I didn't exactly see much reason for you to see me as Town, and therefore kinda confidently assume I'm Town and misunderstanding your playstyle, rather than scum trying to BS push your lynch through.

Oh, ok. I didn’t click the link. My bad.

I understand what you’re saying in this one. You’re wrong, but I get your angle.

I wasn’t saying you were town in that post. In the post where you asked me my read, I clarified that I think your misunderstanding of my playstyle is NAI. Whether or not you fundamentally comprehend the intention behind my play is not relevant to your alignment. In fact, I intentionally play in a way that attempts to keep people guessing, depending on gamestate. In our back and forth, I was trying to determine if you were scum trying to capitalize on perceived holes in town play, or town trying to distinguish between town and scum. I shared it was more likely the latter since you asked. However, I am not totally convinced.

[Amrun]

alright I've read up but my energy is rapidly draining as it's been a long couple days and it's getting late here. I'll be around more for a bit tonight but ~ real effort ~ will come tomorrow probably.

I'm updating my townreads to include AF and Datisi. Amrun is a spicy wagon that I think has p good odds of scum and I'm gonna join it, but right now I feel I got a stronger read on alimdia. I think the S_S tunnel is a distraction and disingenuous, and has given alimdia cover not to comment on anything else actually relevant going on.

AF - do you still want me to explain my townreads from half the game ago? I can do that but frankly I don't really want to unless this will genuinely help you sort me

VOTE: Amrun

This is a bad sheep. I like this slot for scum more than any other right now.

VOTE: GuiltyLion

[Amrun]

DDL push is acceptable. Still prefer GL.

[Amrun]

Re: DDL.

I think some of it is just playstyle. However, in a game I replaced into with him in it, his reads were actually OK. He was eventually NK by scum, though I didn’t personally understand the kill.

In any case, it does seem to be a departure from his play that game since he’s like afraid to take stances here. So I could see it.

P-edit: Because I’m town, and there’s scum pushing it somewhere. And that’s EXACTLY what Salamence20 was saying when you said he’s “shading the whole wagon,” which isn’t what he’s doing, IMO.

[Amrun]

DogWatch could still be scum too.

[Amrun]

It's prob Aaron + Amrun + someone fucking around

You really think me and Amrun are a team?

Creature might actually be scum here.

[Amrun]

Creature come back and tell them I play like dogshit as town

The only game I’ve played with you, you didn’t play like dogshit

[Amrun]

@amrun idk you still feel v hedgey here which isn’t what I’d expect from town!you, and I also don’t like the way that you’re targeting a lurker while still being open to what I think is prob the main alternative to your own wagon which seems v survivialisitc

What are you smoking? Are you considering GuiltyLion a lurker? Are you saying DDL is the main opponent to my wagon? He has ZERO votes on him.

Do you think just because you personally expressed suspicion of DDL he is the main opponent wagon to me? You are so full of yourself. That’s hilarious.

[Amrun]

Re: DDL.

I think some of it is just playstyle. However, in a game I replaced into with him in it, his reads were actually OK. He was eventually NK by scum, though I didn’t personally understand the kill.

In any case, it does seem to be a departure from his play that game since he’s like afraid to take stances here. So I could see it.

P-

edit: Because I’m town, and there’s scum pushing it somewhere. And that’s EXACTLY what Salamence20 was saying when you said he’s “shading the whole wagon,” which isn’t what he’s doing, IMO.

Okay so here’s my objection to that: I don’t think this wagon is really being pushed outside of me?

And I don’t read anyone else on it early ss scummy, so I think this is v much a town motivated wagon which makes that “tell me this is all town” comment an effort to shade the wagon fmpov

Now if I’m wrong on you, I think scum probably did jump on, but towards the end of the wagon less than the start

If I’m right then sally trying to discredit the early wagon (ie the impetus for the whole thing) was def an attempt to stop it gaining traction

I agree overall - but what I’m saying is that Salamence20 was saying LITERALLY the same exact thing as you are saying.

I think the scumhop onto the wagon is GL.

[Amrun]

Also, you’re wrong that the wagon is not being pushed outside of you.

[Amrun]

However, yours is the only actual original push so I guess that depends on your definition. My point is there is scum in AT LEAST one of the sheeps, maybe two.

[Amrun]

There are times when vanity wagons are bad, and you need to compromise.

Early day 1 in a relatively dead large theme isn’t it.

[Amrun]

@dogwatch:

I like him a lot less now. I still think he’s low priority for today, but he seems to be avoided saying anything of relevance, and isn’t really fun fluff posting either.

[Amrun]

#589 refers to Creature (for future ISO)

[Amrun]

I think Creature will become obvious scum in time if he is scum. I wouldn’t cry at his lynch but if he IS town, I think it would be scum’s wet dream to lynch him day 1.

[Amrun]

Not because his strength as a player, per se, but just I think his ability to be misread as scum decreases as time goes on. If he’s town.

[Amrun]

Im uneasy about meanlque.

Why? You joined the wagon?

Thats all for tonight, had to catch up all my games, I will investigate the rapid Amrun wagon and its equally rapid collapse, along with the people in the wagon.

In the meantime, this is reminding me of another game where nobody ever follows my pushes.

UNVOTE:

Why did you say the wagon collapsed? I think it lost one vote at max.

[Amrun]

@menal: what’s your take on GL right now?

[Amrun]

@GuiltyLion: what is the harm of a “vanity” wagon at this stage of day 1?

[Amrun]

I disagree. I think stirring up as much shit as possible with enough people as possible is a better bet on day 1. Day 1 is the time to push your scumread and not be concerned as much with gamestate, which can change in a flash.

[Amrun]

The reasons given thus far for voting me are all hot garbage. Even Menalque now thinks her original reasons to vote me were bad. So therefore, I do think the particular way, and time, in which you voted me was much more likely to come from scum. It’s right in the sweet spot of the wagon I’d expect scum to hop on in a non transparent way.

It’s not because you voted me; I am townreading some of my wagon, after all. It’s the manner in which you did so.

And it’s NOT my policy to push my number one scumread. It entirely depends on gamestate. In this gamestate, your vote did not a single thing to advance the game. It didn’t make me feel more pressured. It didn’t make alimdah feel more pressured. It’s dead weight. It’s noise. That’s where scum love to hang out.

[Amrun]

Maybe so. Maybe I'm reading too much into "can you provide examples" vs "can you actually provide any examples".

Hm. I was a bit weirded out by 470 because the last part read almost tmi-y wrt my alignment, because I don't think I've been extremely Towny this game, especially from your pov since I've just sheeped another player onto you with a very boring case.

I also think this was still an extremely good point, wouldn't call this "hot garbage" at all

Actually that one is ok. It’s wrong, but, ok.

I don’t know what gave you the impression your vote made me feel more pressured though. Because I voted you?

I'd also say that giving scum an excuse to vote me as a viable counter wagon (regardless of whether you are town or not) did a lot for the game even if I'm flipped for it, this whole sequence of pages from 22-29 or whatever will be very informative in a few days

That’s entirely my point. You could have potentially started an alimdah counterwagon that would have been just as informative, regardless of who flipped. You chose not to even try with the flimsy excuse you would have been ignored. WHY would you have been ignored?

My vote on you wasn’t ignored. Am I a better player than you? No. And I’m the top wagon. Usually the person that starts that counterwagon doesn’t take off. But I’m not not going to TRY.

[Amrun]

you also didn't really answer my question. I don't want why you think I could be scum, I want why you think I'm

more

likely scum than the non-entities or the people avoiding commenting on your wagon in any way whatsoever. I completely disagree that my vote did not advance the game and therefore I think your point about "dead weight" zone of my vote is kinda just sophist bs

I think there’s scum off the wagon too. At least one, probably two.

Right at this second my top pick for that would be creature and/or alimdah.

[Amrun]

@GL: I feel pressure. I don’t mean to suggest that. Your vote, though, didn’t add pressure to me, from my view at least. Going from 5 to 6 or whatever didn’t make a difference.

[Amrun]

This is a bizarre stance to take; however, I get the impression that you rely a lot on meta so I think that’s NAI from you. I, however, think meta is trash.

Heh, was reading stuff and just noticed this post where Amrun in the same breath makes a meta read and calls meta trash.

That’s not a meta read? It’s based off of her behavior in this game. I don’t have any completed games with Menalque.

I do sometimes make meta reads though. They’re still pretty trash. Especially second hand meta. They only start to not suck a tiny but when you’ve played together a long time.

[Amrun]

Just warning all my games: I have a stomach virus and it’s sapping me of all energy to be productive.

[Amrun]

VOTE: amrun
sorry

Why are you apologizing?

[Amrun]

like you're the reason why i /in'd and im hating myself for voting you, but i think there's high probability you're scum since the threshold for town you is a bit higher, and you have not met it

I’m the reason you inned? Seriously?


Well if you’re town, you’re wrong, but sadly not confident on that either.

[Amrun]

Ugh, don’t like texcat’s stance on me - if GL is indeed town, feels like lining up mislynches.

[Amrun]

Ugh, don’t like texcat’s stance on me - if GL is indeed town, feels like lining up mislynches.

But on the other hand if GL is lynched and flips town your lynch has basically lined itself up. It's not as though that sentiment expressed by texcat is unexpected; she's just the first to say it out loud.

A) that would be after we had an actual GL flip that was town, with real information

B) texcat avoided giving a read at all so they don’t look bad either way

It’s gross.


@GL: yeah alimdiah’s vote there isn’t fantastic

[Amrun]

I would lynch Creature today tbh. I think it’s not the most informational lynch but does have a higher than random chance of being scum so it’s ok with me.

[Amrun]

I’d also compromise on DDL. DDL is here and voting/talking at least, whereas creature is being willfully obstinate.

And idk of ego boost or what but I felt slightly better about my last interaction with DDL.

[Amrun]

I’d also compromise on DDL. DDL is here and voting/talking at least, whereas creature is being willfully obstinate.

And idk of ego boost or what but I felt slightly better about my last interaction with DDL.

Creature will probably either be back or we’ll get a replacement in which case the slot will be clearer to resd

Either way it’s a bad lynch for todsy

I would prefer to lynch elsewhere, as stated earlier, but as time goes on and he continues to fuck off I care less and less.

[Amrun]

can I also be very likely town on a Creature scumflip?

Ew

[Amrun]

@GL: Because ew. Why would you ask for towncred like that? I was actually thinking you would improve on a red creature flip and now I don’t, because it reads like a bus.

@all: Creature is posting elsewhere on site FWIW

P-edit: I can be spiritually on DDL as well. I’m willing to vote on that wagon.

[Amrun]

people should go back onto amrun though

she's not playing town-amrun

I like you too ddl tbf

I just think you have a red role pm

Why do you think it’s so hard to get votes on you if you’re town and what does that say about the gamestate?

I am coming more and more around to this.

But I’m not dumb enough to derail the only wagon competing with mine. Still, this is my vocal support.

P-edit: yes, maybe. I do think so. But if creature is town it’s null.

[Amrun]

Creature is posting elsewhere on site FWIW

So am I

But I don’t find you scummy so far. So idc.

[Amrun]

I will make this the wagon competing with yours but i need actual votes on it instead of promises of support

I feel like I’m being reckless but...

VOTE: DDL

[Amrun]

And sour take, i think GL, Amrun, and Creature are all town

Go DDL then. Because that’s the only thing that might happen that isn’t the above.

[Amrun]

amrun town is very town and I don't see that this game

the fact that she has been sus'd by other players this game also show that her-not-so-town presence is not just a one-of me feeling, nor that it is entirely scum driven.

What is this even based off? It’s not true.

I’ve been mislynched day 1 many times.

[Amrun]

based on trollie's macbeth game, jason's bang mafia, and the most recent mini

I don’t remember the other games specifically, but in the mini I mishammered in LyLo and I was literally lynched day 1 In the game I won my scummy for.-.-

I am either mislynched early or NK early, back in the day. It depended on the player list back then. And in the mini I replaced in day 4 so it’s not the same. My early game play is frequently perceived as scummy.

[Amrun]

I’m incisive when I feel it.

It takes awhile to get there. Day 1 especially. A couple flips in and we are cooking with gas.

I think holding me to a standard to nail all the scums and be decisive on day 1 is an impossible standard to expect any player to uphold. That’s not a fair thing to expect of town. Is that really a good town strategy, to basically say I’m not town unless I live up to unfairly high standards? I don’t think so. That’s a stretch.

[Amrun]

im holding you to a standard to be decisive on day 1, and i don't think that that is unfair standards. i don't care if you nail any of the scum, actually. but I don't see any visible decisive hunting of your part like, compared to this iso:
viewtopic.php?t=30753&f=54&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go
(granted I know it is 6 years ago)

I was a fairly seasoned mafia player and had been playing with CDB for a long time when I pegged him on day 1, then was NK N1 after getting him lynched.

I’m rusty, I’m out of the loop with most of the players and play styles now, and even the best town doesn’t always get that lucky. I think saying “if you don’t personally catch scum, push their lynch and achieve it on day 1, you’re not town” is unfair to the point of scumminess on your part.

Dang that was a good game, though.

[Amrun]

That’s a bizarre angle for scum to takes though.

Shit. Doubting DDL scum now.

[Amrun]

Iconeum’s weird half-shade on Datisi is bad. However, his case on sal is bad but not in a scummy way. Sal definitely not low hanging fruit - so town points there.

[Amrun]

Iconeum’s weird half-shade on Datisi is bad

She even admitted as much as it being accurate. How is it bad?

If someone is not playing to their town meta, according to you, you should be scumreading them. It’s your phrasing - it’s literally casting doubt on her towniness while not trying to appear that you did that.

[Amrun]

VOTE: Creature

[Amrun]

I would like a VC but I’m still ok with lynching AF too. I hate how wishy washy my reads are today, but whatever. It’s how I feel.

[Amrun]

I really just want any flip that isn’t mine at this point because I don’t have strong convictions on anyone. I want something to go off of and try to see from a new perspective.

My strongest townread is Salamence20. I have some other strong townreads. But my scumreads are garbage.

[Amrun]

Told you creature would post a lot once he got closer to being lynched

Has it made him appear more town? I’m not sure.

It has, however, made it clear that creature/af isn’t SvS.

[Amrun]

I don’t think a fast wagon at deadline is a tell at all.

[Amrun]

I think I’d most like to lynch creature today.

[Amrun]

I just ISOed Iconeum in autumnal mafia, where he is scum. This play doesn’t seem impossible to be scum from him here, but there he was less assertive and pushed Menalque for being a jerk basically, not necessarily for being scummy. Different from his play here.

Idk why I bothered.... that doesn’t mean much. But whatever. I did it.

[Amrun]

Oh one other thing I wanna say though, part of my reason for scumreading Amrun initially that I couldnt mention was her early game felt very different to me than her play in the High Noon micro game we just finished where I was townreading her, but she flipped scum in that game so ?? I think that makes her more likely town in this game lol

That’s why?! That’s funny.

The more DogWatch posts, the more I tonally think she’s town, but I don’t really have anything to say about the posts she mentioned. Except I agree that scum was pushing me (somewhere, I need to analyze with new flips in mind); and that Creature’s lynch was probably pretty safe and blend-y for scum.

[Amrun]

Weekend kicked my butt, will catch up here ASAP

[Amrun]

Like there isn’t enough there for me to have a solid read yet

I have some paranoia around SS mostly bc I felt like he was resisting everything I was trying to do D1 and I think normally we’ve worked quite cooperatively together? But still think he’s prob town

So that just leaves ddl but again, idk if scum!him leaves me alive after my D1 push

Or that's what scum!him wants you to think. Don't drink the wine.

Had you already had the thought about 2 on 1 off?

No, I think that kind of unsupported VCA statement is garbage and a distraction.

I may read a specific player because I think their reasoning for being on or off the wagon did or didn't make sense, but trying to specifically hunt the scum who was off the wagon is a recipe for disaster.

Without a flip of the counterwagons, I agree with this. If Aaron or Amrun is scum, there might be more scum on the Creature wagon. If they are both town, then scum was more likely off wagon.

Why would they be off both wagons? So you think in two town wagons, no scum was on either? Who, then, is scum, according to you?

[Amrun]

Like there isn’t enough there for me to have a solid read yet

I have some paranoia around SS mostly bc I felt like he was resisting everything I was trying to do D1 and I think normally we’ve worked quite cooperatively together? But still think he’s prob town

So that just leaves ddl but again, idk if scum!him leaves me alive after my D1 push

Or that's what scum!him wants you to think. Don't drink the wine.

Had you already had the thought about 2 on 1 off?

No, I think that kind of unsupported VCA statement is garbage and a distraction.

I may read a specific player because I think their reasoning for being on or off the wagon did or didn't make sense, but trying to specifically hunt the scum who was off the wagon is a recipe for disaster.

Without a flip of the counterwagons, I agree with this. If Aaron or Amrun is scum, there might be more scum on the Creature wagon. If they are both town, then scum was more likely off wagon.

here's where i am at

scum reads
Amrun
AaronFrost
Dogwatch

my ?? reads
Something_Smart
texcat
Datisi

my town reads
Iconeum
Menalque
GuiltyLion
alimdia

Do you think I’m likely to be scum with AF and/or DogWatch?

[Amrun]

Sorry also the first 2 sentences are basically saying that by lynching Amrun, we can figure out more info about who was on the wagon.

I think others have discussed that in the last 2 pages.

What’s your read on me, alimdia?

[Amrun]

Why would scum Amrun feel the need to ISO one of Icon's scum games?

... because that's what she'd do as town?

This is not something I typically do as any alignment, ftr. I was reaching for straws because I have ~reasons~ to think Iconeum is a difficult read for me since I pick up on scummy behavior that may be NAI. But meta is trash so... sigh

[Amrun]

Sorry also the first 2 sentences are basically saying that by lynching Amrun, we can figure out more info about who was on the wagon.

I think others have discussed that in the last 2 pages.

What’s your read on me, alimdia?

I think the case on you day 1 was pretty shet tbh. Your actual alignment is clouded because of that since you'd have defended the same way town or scum.
However there were 2 main wagons on day 1, and the other one flipped town.

Me lynching you would only ever be for complete vote analysis.

VOTE: Dogwatch
I'm also done with texcat (or if it happens.. .GL)

This answer is logical, but does a neat job of sidestepping having an opinion on me.

We have similar lynch pools as me, which is nice, though I no longer scumread GL because scum doesn’t really have motivation to reverse a read on me for meta.

[Amrun]

Right now I think lynching in {texcat, alimdia, DogWatch, DDL, Something_Smart, Iconeum} will yield at least 2 scum. Within that, I’d prefer texcat right at this minute. DogWatch is acceptable.

[Amrun]

PS meta is abs not trash its the only real thing left in mafia

Meta is kinda trash, yes, but especially secondhand meta.


My reads are garbage this game so like I kinda feel you???? But it’s a pretty easy thing to capitalize on as scum.

Think about it, if you’re town: would I not be fabricating strong stances as scum? It’s extremely easy to do.

As you noted, it is something I usually do as town, and as GL noted, it’s something I typically emulate as scum.

What is the scum motivation for being openly wishy washy and repeatedly reversing reads, for me? Seriously.

I’m lost at sea this game for some reason. I have a few strong townreads but my scumreads are trash. It is what it is.

What is the issue with having a scumread on texcat, though?

[Amrun]

I think one of (DW, SmartyPants) is amrun's partner. The other one is probably Aaron Frost

And I have repeatedly asked you how an Amrun/AF scumteam makes sense. (It doesn’t)

[Amrun]

I feel like one scum flip would crack this game wide open.

[Amrun]

Right now I think lynching in {texcat, alimdia, DogWatch, DDL, Something_Smart, Iconeum} will yield at least 2 scum. Within that, I’d prefer texcat right at this minute. DogWatch is acceptable.

Why is texcat your preferred lynch right now?

I think this sounds stupid even to me, but he’s the only slot that I haven’t been townpinged by even once this game.

Every other slot, I have, whether for strong or weak reasons.

[Amrun]

PS meta is abs not trash its the only real thing left in mafia

And if meta is so important, why are you bothering trying to compare my play with a game full of players I had played with a long time and therefore had good meta on, with a group of players that are mostly brand new to me as I return to the game six years later? It’s not the same gamestate for me at all.

[Amrun]

As I said when I voted him, I didn't like post 38 where he voted Datisi for pointing out that there were 3 scum. I originally thought this was just a RVS vote, but GL spent some time defending it as a serious vote. So it wasn't the actual vote that looked scummy to me, it was the way he continued to defend it as serious.

I think Amrun is town mostly based on the wagons. If GL were to flip town at some point, I'd definitely revisit Amrun.

DDL is pretty well stuck in the null column for me. I think he voted me at some point, so just my omgus instinct would move him over to slightly scummy. He's made more posts than I have, but has said less.

Ugh, don’t like texcat’s stance on me - if GL is indeed town, feels like lining up mislynches.

I forgot how much I hated this series of texcat posts.

[Amrun]

VOTE: texcat

[Amrun]

I just re-read the entirety of d1 hoping for new clarity.

I didn’t really get it, but it still wasn’t a total waste of time.

My scumread on texcat really firmed up.

DDL slot seems worse on review; his progression on me didn’t seem very natural. I forgot he came into the game townreading me. I believe he inned for me and remembers my old glory days, but he may well have rolled scum here. It’s still relatively weaker than some other reads because it would have been easier to try and pocket me as scum in this way.

I feel better about Ico’s slot. The play is erratic but doesn’t seem scum motivated.

My townread on S_S slightly weakened; I felt minmeldy at post 1039, but 1052 feels a little bit like a perspective slip if Ico ever flips town. My townread on AF got a little murky but I don’t want to revisit that for now.

Pret’s professed scumreads: Datisi, texcat
Pret’s professed townreads: GL, Amrun, S_S (weak)

This would be more helpful if we could be sure this wasn’t a townvig, but Sal literally called for town to vig Pret upon creature townflip so... sigh.

Sal’s reads are all ochem the place. I feel like the slots most likely to be threatened by him are: Iconeum, Datisi, and S_S. S_S he specifically said to be wary of on a Creature townflip. Other lesser threats would be DogWatch, DDL, and GL, though he changed stances there several times.

[Amrun]

EXCUSE ME?

TSE was just generally awful in Perfect Masquerade and got force-replaced, and Salamence just compared your play here to their (town) play there.

Which was unwarranted because a townie flying off the handle and getting tunnely like you did here

is not the same as crossing lines and getting ejected from the game.

@S_S: I know you weren’t. The bolded is what pinged me.

[Amrun]

Also how can you mindmeld with a naked read

Timing, ig

Huh? How is this a valid question?

It’s exactly what I was thinking at exactly that point. There wasn’t really scum motivation for saying it, just as there wasn’t scum motivation in Iconeum’s random bout against Salamence20. ??????

[Amrun]

@S_S: I know you weren’t. The bolded is what pinged me.

Go on... what makes scum-S_S decide to imply that Iconeum is town?

That’s not what a perspective slip is. It isn’t done on purpose.

It came right after your town read on him, so presumably, you were speaking from a place of Iconeum being town because that was your town read, but the wording bothered me.

It’s not something I’d lynch you for alone, but it does mean there’s no planet in which you and Iconeum are scum buddies.

[Amrun]

I keep expecting S_S to explain that naked vote on me, but nope. Just hangin out for presumably no reason.


I strongly townread GL now, fwiw. On day 1 I could not follow his train of thought in a genuine way. D2, with the realization that he was comparing it so specifically to high noon, I do.

Menalque, why are you categorizing DogWatch as a lurker? I don’t.

[Amrun]

That’s not what a perspective slip is. It isn’t done on purpose.

I don't make posts that aren't on purpose.

I suspect that most people are the same way, given that real perspective slips are extremely rare.

I would absolutely make that post if I were scumbuddies with Iconeum.

It’s really not a huge deal either way, and perhaps YOU would, but for me, it’s a huge tick in the “not buddies” box which is largely irrelevant since I believe Iconeum to be town. It’s a note for later just in case.

You aren’t making a genuine attempt to sort me at all, though. :/

[Amrun]

Why did you think there was no reason?

I didn’t think there was actually no reason, which is why I kept thinking you were working on a post about it, but in reality, it appears the reasoning is so sparse that my eyes actually rolled back in my head when I read it. Especially for one so cautious with a vote in day 1, and took flak for it, today to vote so weirdly is confusing to me.

P-edit: that’s interesting. Always?

[Amrun]

Still DW is scummy

SS can be scum, but Amrun and AF gotta go first

Salamence is a spice shot I endorse

Is Iconeum talking that much in the scum thread?

Creature professed quite a lot of scumreads at the end, including DogWatch, yourself, and his LAST scumreads were Salamence and Iconeum. So just literally what the fuck.

[Amrun]

You aren’t making a genuine attempt to sort me at all, though. :/

I did, but didn't get very far. I'd rather trust Creature's attempt to sort you, at least for now.

Creature didn’t attempt to do shit, with anyone, which is why his dying reads were clearly a garbage pile on fire. He couldn’t have been more disengaged with this game.

[Amrun]

It came right after your town read on him, so presumably, you were speaking from a place of Iconeum being town because that was your town read, but the wording bothered me.

Actually if you want to know it was in response to Salamence claiming that Iconeum was imploding town like TSE was. Iconeum's behavior looked different to me, so if he was a townie getting riled up, he was not a townie getting riled up in the same way that TSE was.

Also, I always talk to people as if they are town.

And once again, I know what you were literally attempting to say. I know what it was referring to. I reread the entire game day in context in great detail.

[Amrun]

For someone so thoughtful that values his vote so much, you haven’t even put enough thought into this vote to determine who was actually Creature’s dying scumread. I don’t like that. It doesn’t seem internally consistent with your day 1 play.

About the perspective “slip,” though: noted.

P-edit: actually, no, I don’t think that was clear at all.

[Amrun]

And why sheep creature over Salamence20? Pret?

[Amrun]

I do think he maintained those scumreads the best, but he also, by his own admission, “forgot” he scumread Aaron which put him under fire initially.

It’s creature, and a severely under engaged creature. Yes, he said those things, but he also said a LOT of other things. And the LAST thing he said before he died was that Ico/Sal were scum together.


P-edit: Up until my re-read I had a fairly strong townread on you. I don’t really care about the fact that you’re voting me - it could be anyone - but it’s severely damaging that townread because it’s so poorly reasoned for a player I understood to be extremely analytical. And you also casually dropped what turned out to be a blatant sheep in the middle of a good faith conversation with me. I assumed it came from the conversation, which isn’t scummy in and of itself, but like I said, you don’t seem to be internally consistent with yourself, which bothers me a lot.

I would drop you into my lynch pool for this, but you’re still not near the top of it.

[Amrun]

Why did Creature make 80 posts in two days if he was disengaged?

Have you met Creature? I know enough to know that post count is meaningless for him.


I don’t really have a ton of experience with him so maybe I shouldn’t be talking like that, but, perhaps Creature and I have different definitions of “engaged,” too. I myself have had a very difficult time engaging with this particular game, but I’m getting there.


My point is, though, that I try to take into account dead players’ reads, as referenced up thread, but I have never, ever been tempted to let them supplant my own reads. Not once.

[Amrun]

Creature said he scumread you ten times in those posts, most of which were stating or implying that you were one of his strongest scumreads. The fact that he happened to mention some other reads last does not change that.

I don’t care to argue the semantics of this; we can agree I was certainly featured often on his scumreads. My point is why you are settling for poorly sheeping a dead player after making such a stink day 1 about how you wait to use your vote meaningfully? That’s not meaningful. If it coincided to your own scumread, adding Creature’s to it is one thing, but just to say “eh can’t read you, can’t be arsed to try, gonna sheep Creature instead” is fucking bizarre.

[Amrun]

It’s fine to call me and Aaron his primary scumreads, and I agree that Aaron is likely to be town, though I don’t care too much about the factional NK thing.

It’s the reason for sheeping at all that I find scummy. You’re divorcing yourself from the need to be held accountable for your own reads. That’s a problem.

[Amrun]

Amrun do you think I'm mis-reading you or reading you in bad faith

I seem to change my mind about this on a regular basis. I don’t think you would read me in bad faith as town, so if you’re doing that, I think you’re scum. That’s why my read of you waffles.

[Amrun]

S_S: Sheeps are meant to be “well, you convinced me and I also scumread X now!” not “I refuse to even attempt to have my own scumread on this player and am only using Y’s read.” That way when X flips town, you get to say Y was wrong - not you. It’s slimy.

[Amrun]

Have you met Creature? I know enough to know that post count is meaningless for him.

In my experience he hyperposts when he's engaged and lurks when he isn't. Can you link any specific games where that hasn't been true?

I can’t right now. Maybe later in the game if we are alive. Sorry. Take my thoughts in creature with an asterisk for possible inaccuracy, but they’re still my accurate thoughts, if that makes sense.

P-edit: I still don’t think it’s in the spirit of sheeping. And yes, I find your sudden willingness to vote for (imo) bad reasons without any original thought of your own suspect when it’s counter to your previous play IN THIS GAME.

[Amrun]

You’re divorcing yourself from the need to be held accountable for your own reads.

How could I possibly prevent myself from being held accountable for my reads? Regardless of who provided the reasoning, I was the one who cast the vote.

Whether I'm going to be held accountable depends on whether other people hold me accountable or not. It doesn't depend on what reasoning I give.

Refer to your own previous post for that answer.

[Amrun]

I see where you're coming from, of course. It does give me an EXCUSE for if you flip town. But then again, (a) that's not an excuse that's likely to really be convincing to anybody, and (b) I could certainly come up with other excuses for my own read was wrong-- a favorite of many people is "it's their own fault they were mislynched, they shouldn't have played so scummy," which I personally hate (it often amounts to victim blaming).

Championing creature wouldn’t bother me nearly as much if you had some type of read of your own. Regardless of if I think that excuse would be effective, when you seem to be willfully not reading me in favor of letting Creature do the work for you, it still implies that reasoning will be used, even if you don’t blatantly say it.

[Amrun]

And yes, I find your sudden willingness to vote for (imo) bad reasons without any original thought of your own suspect when it’s counter to your previous play IN THIS GAME.

Here's the thing-- you're correct that I'm an analytic player. And one of the things I consider very seriously when playing is that there is no particularly reason why I should expect my reads to be any better than another random townie's reads.

So, if I have a compelling reason to expect my reads to be WORSE than another townie's reads, then I'll get better results by adopting their reads.

And I do have a compelling reason-- I haven't really found anything worthy of a scumread of any significant level of confidence. If I were to come up with a scumread myself, it would probably not be better than random. And I decided that given how dead the game has been I probably ought to be voting as it would increase the chance that stuff would start happening (and lo and behold, stuff did start happening).

There were similar gamestates at times yesterday and you still did not vote during them.

[Amrun]

I don’t agree that the gamestate was the same but at least that was YOUR vote for YOUR reasons.

[Amrun]

For being a vague slot sure seems people are okay with me staying that way

Not at all. But I think it’s fair to let you catch up.

[Amrun]

My vote is on you right now fwiw and I think that’s where we should be lynching. And at this point, you said your catchup was 52% content but I’m just going to call it 0% content from my POV.

[Amrun]

what I also think is weird having reflected on it more is DDL townreading Menalque, like, this dude was calling you scum all D1 and trying to get you lynched and you aren't suspicious of him in the slightest? really? I suggest I might switch to DDL and he decides to call me out while making no mention of Menalque?

I legit lol’d when I read this. So I just went and ISO’d DDL again and menal doesn’t even make an appearance in the entire ISO with the exception of one offhand comment that DDL likes him. It does seem extremely unrealistic to barely mention someone who’s been calling for your blood like two game days straight.

This is actually a good fucking point. Town getting shitpushed like that usually gets mad.

[Amrun]

VOTE: DDL

I didn’t realize I didn’t actually post in between him calling me town and then suddenly saying I’m not playing my town game. Good catch, Iconeum.

[Amrun]

I keep expecting S_S to explain that naked vote on me, but nope. Just hangin out for presumably no reason.


I strongly townread GL now, fwiw. On day 1 I could not follow his train of thought in a genuine way. D2, with the realization that he was comparing it so specifically to high noon, I do.

Menalque, why are you categorizing DogWatch as a lurker? I don’t.

because she has the lowest posts of everyone in the game aside from alim and tex/gamma!slot

I just checked and she had only 3 more posts than alim at the time that you posted this and he hasn't posted in 3 days so my question back to you is why don't you think that's lurky?

Eh, she’s been present for every major game state IIRC. Whenever she posts, it’s content. Not everyone is a spammer. That aspect doesn’t bother me.

[Amrun]

so actually I did reread creature's ISO and I think he was very clearly engaged and trying to get reads on multiple players by the end of day

would you disagree with that assessment @amrun

He picked it up, yes, but Creature is a high post rate player no matter what he’s playing. I find post count irrelevant. I also think all his reads at the end when he “seemed” more engaged were really, really bad.

[Amrun]

Why did Creature make 80 posts in two days if he was disengaged?

Have you met Creature?

I know enough to know that post count is meaningless for him

.


I don’t really have a ton of experience with him so maybe I shouldn’t be talking like that, but,

perhaps Creature and I have different definitions of “engaged,” too.

I myself have had a very difficult time engaging with this particular game, but I’m getting there.


My point is, though, that I try to take into account dead players’ reads, as referenced up thread, but I have never, ever been tempted to let them supplant my own reads. Not once.

okay so how do you define being engaged and why do you think post count is meaningless for creature?

I think Creature is a fine player that is prone to spamming. I can’t be more specific right now for ~reasons~ but I don’t think the fact that he has a high post count means they’re content posts. I think he never got into this particular game, and gave a token effort at the end to successfully fulfill his obligation as town. I don’t have any problem with him, or even with his play here, but I think the quality of his reads this game were very poor at the end and from the time he seemed to lose interest forward. They were ok in the beginning. For that reason, he read to me as disengaged. I can’t really speak for him but that’s how I see it.

[Amrun]

I mean he expressed confidence in his datisi scumread multiple times

Yeah but Creature said Amrun was scum ten times

Is this a real sentiment?

Pret said Datisi was scum almost as many times with more reasoning and oomph behind it, to boot.

For what reason do you literally not even register Pret’s reads, or anything Datisi has done even though they’ve been quite active, but have memorized Creature’s ISO even though he wasn’t here for half of the game day?

Seriously, what on earth?

[Amrun]

GL, you've mentioned High Noon a couple of times wrt reading Amrun. Does my play from that game influence your read in any way?

were you in the hydra btw? I had wondered about that

and yes, I was Logic
I thought it was obvious by my post-game comments to birb (and to anyone who knows what "datisi" means khm)

I didn’t realize.

[Amrun]

Also, I don’t buy tinfoil on this one. One at most of DDL/Menal is scum.

I also do not read his giving up as a town thing.

[Amrun]

I keep expecting S_S to explain that naked vote on me, but nope. Just hangin out for presumably no reason.


I strongly townread GL now, fwiw. On day 1 I could not follow his train of thought in a genuine way. D2, with the realization that he was comparing it so specifically to high noon, I do.

Menalque, why are you categorizing DogWatch as a lurker? I don’t.

because she has the lowest posts of everyone in the game aside from alim and tex/gamma!slot

I just checked and she had only 3 more posts than alim at the time that you posted this and he hasn't posted in 3 days so my question back to you is why don't you think that's lurky?

Eh, she’s been present for every major game state IIRC. Whenever she posts, it’s content. Not everyone is a spammer. That aspect doesn’t bother me.

eh, I'll reread, I'd say she's had a very low thread presence imo which is lurky

do you consider lurky to be inherently scummy?

I guess it depends on your definition of lurking. If you’re simply comparing number of posts down a list, no.

I guess my answer is still no, either way, though.

I think lurking is inherently antitown, but it’s a behavior town frequently engage in too. I just recently tried to stop a mislynch in LUV (chronic lurker) upon replacing into a game because I think his play, while antitown, made most sense to be town motivated. (I was right, fwiw.)

For me, it depends on HOW a player is lurking. What junctures do they choose to pop in? What do they say, when they do?

A lurker probably has better than random chance at being scum, so I guess that kinda makes my answer yes, but... Context really does matter.

The shit texcat did, beetlejuicing and deliberately avoiding commitment on most major gamestate changes, THAT is lurking I find tremendously scummy. Gamma’s, however, is NAI because he’s catching up so he’s in a grace period for me.

[Amrun]

so actually I did reread creature's ISO and I think he was very clearly engaged and trying to get reads on multiple players by the end of day

would you disagree with that assessment @amrun

He picked it up, yes, but Creature is a high post rate player no matter what he’s playing. I find post count irrelevant. I also think all his reads at the end when he “seemed” more engaged were really, really bad.

well no, I don't agree

I think that creature being lurky isn't really AI for him, but I've consistently only seen him put down big numbers as town with one exception

so I do think that him hyperposting 80 posts is certainly enough to not lynch him on D1 based on his meta and I think that scum would definitely want creature dead if they could plausibly mislynch him and no-one acknowledging that creature is a great mislynch for scum to get if possible is bad

why were his reads really bad?

I just disagree with 1939 tbh, I think that was creature playing normally and trying to sort

You likely have much more extensive experience with Creature, so you may well be right. However, I can only base my opinion off of my own experience, and that’s how I felt about it at the time.

And his reads were bad because I townread ALL of them.

Two are confirmed town (to me): sal, myself. The other two are icon and AF. Early game I agreed with the AF read (obviously) but now I TR AF. Iconeum I fairly strongly townread.

Time will tell, I guess.

[Amrun]

Also, I don’t buy tinfoil on this one. One at most of DDL/Menal is scum.

I also do not read his giving up as a town thing

.

why, ideally giving voice to why you think my logic in 1956 is wrong

I agree with 1956, overall. However, we don’t know he isn’t being bussed to hell, for starters, so 1) could be true.

Giving up isn’t optimal behavior as any alignment. However, in this case, and given the player it is, I find it more likely to come from scum ddl. GL’s dug up meta is in line with my remembrance of him as a player. Pretty sure he just doesn’t like rolling scum.

[Amrun]

I also recently anti-spewed as scum that was clearly going down, and not the last scum, specifically to protect my partner and not make any of his mislynches unviable. It was radja’s recent micro and my partner was gamma. So I definitely know scum could and would do that.

[Amrun]

@Menalque: Part of it is that I keep waffling on my reads of other players, but I was internally discounting my read on tex for the same reason until I re-read day 1. In context, it came off as active lurking and the phrasing of his posts made me feel like he was avoiding associatives, and one that he was setting up mislynches, which I noted in thread.

It is rare that my top scumread is the lurkiest player, but alas... I’m in that sad position.

However, also voting DDL, etc etc

[Amrun]

Agree with 1987. AF/DDL never scum together. I also noted that at the time.

[Amrun]

FWIW the giving up is not something I’d hang a scum case on. It’s just not going to dissuade me from voting there.


Also, S_S is bothering the shit out of me.

Creature scumread DogWatch. Your closest thing to a scumread is on DogWatch. There was a wagon on DogWatch. Why didn’t you at least poke the bear on it?

[Amrun]

Now you TR DogWatch?

JFC

[Amrun]

S_S, reasons for alimdia TR? I'm kinda forgetting that slot exists honestly, and I almost find it a bit weird you've got a TR on them while you don't remember anything I've done?

Same. The only thing I remember is a spat with S_S day 1

[Amrun]

What do you want to hear?

Anything? Got nothing to offer?

[Amrun]

DDL, if you’re town, help me understand you.

Why did you go to townreading me to scumreading me early game when I made no posts in between?

[Amrun]

Reevaluation, amrun.
Revise and resubmit

Based on what? It was very early game. What did you re-evaluate, specifically?

[Amrun]

@GL: if you’re gut scumreading Menalque, why do you care that she’s townreading Datisi?

[Amrun]

My preferred lynch list today is:

{Texcat slot; s_s; datisi; alimdia}

In ascending order of preference.

I would require some convincing to lynch outside of this list; how much depends on which slot.

VOTE: gamma

[Amrun]

Can we slow down with the votes though? If we mislynch again and scum gets two shots off, it's game over.

There’s 2 votes on. This concern seems premature.

[Amrun]

My preferred lynch list today is:

{Texcat slot; s_s; datisi; alimdia}

Does calling it “texcat slot” mean you’re voting this slot more due to texcat’s contributions instead of Gamma’s? For me it’s kinda a mix of the two but I feel like this slot needs way more pressure and discussion than it’s gotten.

Yes. I was giving gamma some time to catch up but I’m expecting content now.

[Amrun]

2 votes on, 3 scum, 5 to lynch, and since Gamma isn't really a TRed slot people might blindly follow. I'd rather not be risking some sorta qh.

So you think scum will openly out themselves just to pray they get 2 shots off tonight?

I think I’m good.

[Amrun]

Maybe not all of them. But say there's 4 votes on a toTownie, might as well have someone qh that if they've stocked guns for the lategame. Sorry I'm trying to be careful.

It’s so overcareful that it pings me, tbh.

[Amrun]

That’s not actually myLo, though I do agree we should be careful with the lynch.

But I’m going to choose to motivate content however I please.

[Amrun]

My preferred lynch list today is:

{Texcat slot; s_s; datisi; alimdia}

In ascending order of preference.

I would require some convincing to lynch outside of this list; how much depends on which slot.

VOTE: gamma

Why I am in there by the way?

Also, I'm having very big difficulty comprehending that there isnt at least 1 scum out of the 3 main wagons on Day 1.

You’re lowest because you’re my least confident. I just don’t feel great about anything you’ve put forward in the game.

Also, yes, probably at least one scum on those wagons but I’m going off my scumreads for now.

so shouldnt GL be in there from your POV? hm...

No - why? He’s one of my stronger townreads at this point.

[Amrun]

Why would I accept your analysis that the day 1 wagons have to be on scum? I don’t share that view at all.

[Amrun]

Merry Christmas prod dodge!! Reminder to myself to address alimdia’s question ASAP!!

[Amrun]

If you're doubling down on said viewpoint, who is the scum on your wagons then?

In my opinion there is one OR MORE scum in {datisi, alimdia, DogWatch}. Datisi and DW were on both wagons, but I don’t truly care about that part. I have already been clear that in this I prefer datisi first.


In fact, I kinda feel like lynching datisi today >.>. But I need to catch up.

[Amrun]

So what I'm saying is one of the big wagons on Day 1 has to be scum, otherwise Mena is likely scum.

Eh, can you walk me through this?

My logic is that there were 3 main wagons, 1 kinda wagon (AF but he flipped town)
The 3 main wagons are
Amrun
GL
Creature (town)

So now both Amrun and GL are saying that each other is town. From Amrun's POV then, whos scum? Mena? Since he pushed the Amrun wagon hard. But no, Amrun says Datisi, me, texcat, SS is the lynchpool

Now, I believe it was Amrun and AF who started the GL wagon! So from GL's POV, if its TvTvTvT, then whos the scum?
Heres what he had to say:

If I had to like take a stab at the gamestate I think I'm still townreading Datisi, Ico, and Amrun, but I don't feel great about it. My gut scumreads are Smart and Menalque but I don't feel great about that either. Gammas slot is bad and I still want to lynch it, but we just lynched two bad slots that flipped town, and I don't have a confident read on Dogwatch or Alimdia. I kinda want somebody else to try to take charge for a little bit because I think somewhere along the way I've been buddied and I don't see it.

It's just my weird theory because Amrun or GL isn't being consistent right now.
For the record, I do have my other scum reads but I feel like I'm being taken for a ride right now. Might be why I was paranoid that I thought you slipped earlier Datisi.

I’m being extremely consistent. Just because you say I should believe x, y, or z doesn’t mean I actually do. I’ve been pretty clear on my reads I think.

[Amrun]

If you're doubling down on said viewpoint, who is the scum on your wagons then?

In my opinion there is one OR MORE scum in {datisi, alimdia, DogWatch}. Datisi and DW were on both wagons, but I don’t truly care about that part. I have already been clear that in this I prefer datisi first.

In fact, I kinda feel like lynching datisi today >.>. But I need to catch up.

Why is alimdia in that bracket? And why am I suddenly lower than Gamma/S_S, especially if you aren't caught up?

Because looking at it in response to alimdia’s question, I realized you are in a sweet spot on both wagons where I’d expect scum to be. Alimdia is there for similar reasons, plus she’s saying such off the wall things that seem like stances, but actually don’t make any fucking sense at all.

Also, I reread my own reread post where NK analysis indicates you, datisi.

I’m still pretty happy lynching gamma/texcat too though. Anyone in my previously published lynch pool would be fantastic but I became a little more confident in a scumread on you recently.

[Amrun]

What similar reasons? Alimdia's positions on wagons were very different from mine.

If you don't care about the "both on-wagon" part, and DW isn't in your pool, why do you mention her? Oh, and current stance on S_S?

Alimdia’s original spot on the creature wagon before she diverted to come back and hammer was a sweet scum spot, and like I said, there’s other reasons anyway.

DW isn’t on my list but she was on both my wagon and Creature’s. If I had to add someone else to my list it would be her but tonally, I town read her.

S_S is still scum coasting.

[Amrun]

Btw, I said alimdia’s PREVIOUS spot on the Creature wagon.

The hammer itself is null for me, or even maybe a little towny.

But alimdia is my lowest preference in my lynch pool.

[Amrun]

So... I literally left my phone in a Wendy’s six hours away from my house. I’ve had no access until just now. It’s 1 am. I will catch up ASAP.

[Amrun]

Super ok with this.

VOTE: something_smart

But we can’t let gamma coast either.


@GL:

I realize I shouldn’t be pointing this out because it makes you more likely to scumread me, but, I believe you’re town sooo... who is scum reading Ico? You said people are casually scumreading Ico but the ONLY person I can think of who does so is gamma. So I don’t understand your train of thought here at all.

Also don’t understand the buddy reads on S_S and me, but whatever, will cross that bridge when we get there, if we get there. I’ve never in my life seen scum openly sheep onto another scum with no wagon by following a dead player, and I don’t think I ever will.

[Amrun]

I mean I can give you this.

Amrun is accusing people (me and Gamma) of coasting while not asking any questions to us. That means she doesn't actually want us to contribute more if we're town so she can straighten out her read on us.

Complete BS. I had a whole back and forth with you and you provided NOTHING. N-OT-H-I-N-G

You clung to creatures read and argued semantics over it and explicitly absolved yourself of any responsibility for your read on me. What else is there to ask? You’re sidestepping responsibility so you can’t be blamed when it’s wrong.

Texcat isn’t here to ask questions to. Gamma is on page 9 and dragging out his catchup - I’ve had interaction with him too. I’ve been trying to motivate content there with my vote and trying to drum up a wagon that has seen a shocking amount of resistance.


This post is total hot air BS.

[Amrun]

My lynch pool hasn’t changed. I feel more actively interested in lynching S_S in this moment. I might drop alimdia off the list for today. Any of there other three can go.

[Amrun]

I think there’s 2 scum in my lynch pool and the third one is a town read I have fucked up.

[Amrun]

explicitly absolved yourself of any responsibility for your read on me.

I explicitly stated multiple times that I shouldn't be absolved of responsibility for the read...

You did but that doesn’t make sense and if you abdicate reasoning for the read, people are going to abdicate you from responsibility whatever you state. You’re only just now changing that and the reasoning is actually even worse than sheeping dead town.

[Amrun]

@mena: I didn’t realize that but that’s still two players, a far cry from what S_S was implying. I strongly TR Ico for one.

[Amrun]

Who do you think is the Townie in there and who do you find to be the most likely scum out of it?

Alimdia is the most likely to flip town out of my lynch pool.

I think texcat slot is most likely to flip scum. I’ve stated all of this already.

[Amrun]

Complete BS. I had a whole back and forth with you and you provided NOTHING. N-OT-H-I-N-G

You thought I was coasting during the back-and-forth? I thought you thought I was coasting today.

No I didn’t think you were coasting then. That’s not relevant to what I was saying.

[Amrun]

I TR Ico mostly for the timing and tone of his Salamence20 push. It just had very little scum
motivation fmpov.

[Amrun]

Alimdia is the most likely to flip town out of my lynch pool.

I think texcat slot is most likely to flip scum. I’ve stated all of this already.

You sorta did but I'm kinda puzzled you still seem to be thinking S_S/Datisi is a team?

If I had already gamesolved, we wouldn’t have an issue. If S_S flips scum, I’ll re-evaluate anyway so that’s not at all my concern right now. But I don’t really have a problem with a datisi/S_S scumteam anyway.

[Amrun]

But I don’t really have a problem with a datisi/S_S scumteam anyway.

Would scum need to bus at this point? I think Datisi leading this wagon looks very town.

I will re-evaluate this if S_S flips scum, but Datisi is on the peripheral of a lot of scum reads and S_S is more centered.

I would, and have, bussed in that situation, yes.

[Amrun]

I definitely prefer to lynch S_S or gamma emerald over datisi anyway fwiw and I’m just not really worried about pre-flip associations.

[Amrun]

I TR Ico mostly for the timing and tone of his Salamence20 push. It just had very little scum
motivation fmpov.

Can you talk more about this?

I need to reread D1

Was he pushing sally as a contrast to you?

I think, contextually, he was pushing sally at a time when Creature seemed to be a likely mislynch looming, and the only other viable options were me, and MAYBE an offhand chance of GL or DDL. The only alignment I don’t know here is GL and he’s my strongest townread at this juncture. Scum wouldn’t be motivated to rock the boat when it’s all mislynches on the horizon. Even if GL was scum this would be even more townie bc rocking the boat is even worse.

Sally was most people’s TR, hence being NK. A couple of specific things about it stuck out as town to me but I’d have to go back now and look again.

[Amrun]

Hi
Was doing Disneyworld stuff yesterday

What’s your take on the SS wagon?

[Amrun]

I’m having tinfoil about Mena but more sure about Datisi and I don’t think they’re scum together? Plus menal has some mindmelding with me on this page alone.

I’ll bet the game in Iconeum town. Will never lynch there.

Completely supportive of claiming.

[Amrun]

I’m having tinfoil about Mena but more sure about Datisi and I don’t think they’re scum together? Plus menal has some mindmelding with me on this page alone.

I’ll bet the game in Iconeum town. Will never lynch there.

Completely supportive of claiming.

Want to talk about this tinfoil?

Also when you say more sure about datisi sure she’s scum or town?

Datisi is very likely scum out of the pool we have left. FMPOV it has to be you or datisi.


My tinfoil on you:

Out of this player list, I would pick you to NK Salamence20 and Pret on N1, easily. Also, I feel like you’d pick gun, and the high amount of bullets this game points to the gun-type players being scum. Also, I question your commitments to the lynches that you have pushed, in some ways.

In other ways, I had you as town for a reason and it’s fucking with my head.


I feel like it’s datisi/texcat/??? Alimdia?

[Amrun]

Datisi is very likely scum out of the pool we have left. FMPOV it has to be you or datisi.

Why does it have to be one of us fypov and what exactly makes you think we're not possible partners?

and also your proposed massclaim order?

PoE. I mean, outside chance or DogWatch/alum/gamma but I just don’t think so.

And I guess my order would be Gamma - Datisi - alimdia - Menalque - DogWatch - Iconeum - myself

I mean you're not wrong that those are NKs that I think could come from scum!me

not commenting on the gun point until we figure out an order for massclaim

what makes you question my commitment to the lynches I've pushed?

and what were the reasons you had me as town?

Day 1 I felt like you were soft pushing DDL. You were hard pushing me, but dropped it - still don’t know if you TR me or what. You kinda sorta SR Ico but haven’t pushed it at all. I don’t have a sense of strong reads from you in general and that worries me.

I had you town from you tinfoiling people TR you for your “slip.” That seemed genuinely paranoid to me. Meh.

@alimdiah: I have explained my Ico TR several times now so I won’t re-invent the wheel. However, to add to it, the way he came into today treating my slot is not what I would see scum doing because I see myself as a mislynchable slot right now. Which is exactly why your soft SR on me and the way you went about it is scummy.

[Amrun]

Actually I don't see scum motivation in alim giving a 48hr hammer notice, I had him as POE scum but I'm rethinking that

Why? Why wouldn’t scum do this?


Also FTR, I support popcorn style, it’s simpler.

[Amrun]

Yes

[Amrun]

That’s explicitly untrue.

i'm gonna have to shotgun reads for now

i'm mostly caught up actually

my main townread is alim

if i had a gun right now i'd be shooting gamma

extremely sceptical that scum didn't bother to kill of either (menal/datisi), which are prime targets for scum (to target) imo

amrun is likely town, my reasoning being I feel extremely confident that scum would want a lynch on me today, and amrun has not been setting that up, at all

[Amrun]

Also... is there anyone that is like... setting up on a lynch on Icon? I don't see anyone doing it?

Menalque kinda

[Amrun]

Amrun, don't think you've answered why you don't think me and Mena can be partners?

I need to look at it again, just some early interactions mostly on Menalque’s part.

[Amrun]

I’d actually rather lynch datisi today I think. Shocking, I know.

[Amrun]

I now think Menalque can only be scum if gamma is.

[Amrun]

I would def like to do massclaim first. Having a confirmed town could really help me depending who it is.

[Amrun]

Ew why is datisi so low on that list? Hiss boo

[Amrun]

Menalque, I object to you saying I’ve ignored other slots all game. That’s explicitly untrue.

It is true I haven’t “formally” cased Datisi but I have mentioned several distinct reasons I scumread her. I also really hate basically every single thing she has posted today.

I’m not hard pushing anything today yet because I’m waiting on massclaim. If we don’t get going on it we won’t have enough time to do it at all, because I would have preferred it be done today. That’s why I wanted popcorn. No, it may not be the objectively ideal way to claim, but it actually gets it fucking done. We are NO closing to achieving anything today than when we started, even determining a claim order and I’m starting to get really frustrated by it.

#2625 is disingenuous and I don’t like it.

If I claim first can we goddamn get something going?

[Amrun]

And also you haven’t pushed anything either today, Menalque?

Who is scum, Menalque? I really don’t know what you think except throwing vague, unsubstantiated shade at icon and me. You haven’t proposed that we are a scumteam, which seems to be the only thing that makes sense with your current stance. Is that what you think, Menalque? Who is third scum then? Why am I having to drag it out of you?

[Amrun]

like honestly the way you/icon/amrun is acting is kiiiiind of worrying me tbh

amrun and icon are hard TRing each other

amrun has said she wants to Lynch you today but I don't think she's cased you and she hasn't really been pushing it

she's also said she's tin foiling me as scum

you're TRing me which is what I'd expect

but also pushing a gamma lynch really hard and kind of ignoring the other slots in the game

icon is entering with a strong "Mena/gamma + 1" scum team read, indicating he'd be fine with gamma too

so it just sort of feels like this could be 2 scum pushing on town while one is distancing from it in case it doesn't work out


***

that said

idk I'm still struggling to believe you can emulate your town play this well as scum but equally you have fooled me hard before as scum

but then again that was our first game together and I'\ve literally not been wrong on you since then

I am tired of waiting around on gamma to claim what night. Is it really worth stalling the game for days to get that info?

I’d prefer it too but I’m fed up.


Menalque, I misread that post for the part about ignoring other slots. You were addressing datisi but you just said “you” so I didn’t realize that.

P-edit: I’m assuming you mean me and Icon as opposed to me and gamma bc me and gamma is an asinine proposition. Why are you criticizing me for not pushing anyone “strongly” or “casing” Datisi when you haven’t pushed anyone at ALL?

[Amrun]

Am I misunderstanding the strength of your datisi SR?

A little, though I understand why. S_S townflip scrambled my brain, and given gamestate, I’m not sure of anything. I really want the massclaim before making my final assessments, which is why I’m not making my final lynch selection yet, and not trying to convince anyone yet.

Also should datisi pushing gamma not fypov give you some sort of pause on gamma?

Absolutely it does, which is why I may want to flip datisi first.

Why do you think Amrun/Gamma aren't S/S?

Because she’s read the game?

Posts like this are super hard pinging next. She’s trying pretty hard not to close off her mislynch options here.

[Amrun]

*she not he

*me not next

Fuck me.

[Amrun]

How about I just claim and we move forward??

Gamma can claim his night ASAP.