SIR Disease Mafia - Game Over!

[OkaPoka]

can i get away with not catching up

its a cult game and there are 115 pages sooooooo

pls

[OkaPoka]

does the vc btw? like are there any wagons that id miss if i was only scanning the vcs

[OkaPoka]

does the vc lie btw***

[OkaPoka]

Twice per game, mafia may kill any player that they choose. Aside from those two instances, mafia possess the ability to factionally infect a player and to kill an infected player each night.

[OkaPoka]

how have you guys not discussed these mechanics yet

has the discussion about mafia being able to kill infected come up yet? that implies there is a cure? i mean it makes sense im the cdc but how havent this been discussed

[OkaPoka]

anyways i can find cures

so infected claim you got infected, ill cure you tonight

[OkaPoka]

no i kinda just want infected to out so we can understand how much infected knows

they can literally just kill their own infected so its kinda important infected outs everything and if nai works correctly then they should be cured and then killed

[OkaPoka]

like i can imagine a world where infected knows the entire team with how this game works with scum able to factionally infect continuously and factionally kill, i guess it will be some weird game theory calculations if infected wants to choose to out

[OkaPoka]

anyways imma chill until infected comes out and backstabs their infectors, lets be honest do you really want to play scum when you can just kill all your friendos

[OkaPoka]

also please dont fakeclaim infected, i will infect you if you are not infected

[OkaPoka]

dont troll here quick if im confused and i target you, you will become infected

unless thats what you want

[OkaPoka]

i have knowledge that prefers a full infected out + everything they know rather than playing a game of detective where i might start infecting people because i guessed wrong

[OkaPoka]

like i just told you that guessing wrong means i INFECT rather than cure the infection

being explicit is a lot cooler

[OkaPoka]

i mean if infected dont know anything thats pretty valuable knowledge for town to have

and if they out they get cured anyways, so /shrug for them they can go back to legit scumhunting with us then instead of playing scum

[OkaPoka]

not knowing your alignment changed and therefore your wincon is a clear violation of:

and there are no secret win conditions, false roles, or anything of that nature.

[OkaPoka]

and i agree main mafia members are not considered infected and therefore probably not curable thus im not asking mafia to out themselves, just infected

[OkaPoka]

if i get infected then it is what it is

im not going to play to prevent myself from being infected, i actually quite enjoy playing scum

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: quick

ur annoying

[OkaPoka]

Also, Oka, you might be asking people to break rules.
If you are infected you have to play to infected wincon, not to town wincon. Even if you except to be townied later.

you play to whatever maximizes your chances of winning

if you and your companions are dying of thirst in the arabian desert and i promise you water to betray your companions, you have a choice to betray your companions and live with me or soldier on in hopes of finding an oasis

all im saying is my path is the path of least resistance

[OkaPoka]

dude im not going to be lol curing people as a shitty cop cult

if im wrong i literally set us the fuck behind because even if i guarantee someone is scum now, you have to spend a dayphase lynching that former townie and scum get a free night? this would only work if ircher was a terrible game designer and overloaded town with super roles that make us never need to lynch to win

[OkaPoka]

im going to be real with you, thats not possible

my role has other gates that i cannot out otherwise its playable around, you just have to trust me when i say that the best play for me is to have infected just out themselves

[OkaPoka]

like i could do stuff with my role but its not realistic nor feasible, ive thought about my role pm a lot and this is the best path

[OkaPoka]

like ill out bits and pieces to make the choice more obvious such as me infecting when i target a non infected slot but yeah

trust me

[OkaPoka]

all you have to do is confirm if you are infected or not

i have a cure for you if you are

[OkaPoka]

anyways i can find cures

so infected claim you got infected, ill cure you tonight

We’ve talked about this D1. Claiming infected to get cured is considered playing against the Infected wincon.

mod say?

[OkaPoka]

hello sauDOOD

[OkaPoka]

you know i was just kidding im actually just a vt haha gottem

[OkaPoka]

WeirdChamp

[OkaPoka]

good thing im just vt!

[OkaPoka]

u think ur so funny hectic

[OkaPoka]

sorry you think you are so funny hOctAc

[OkaPoka]

damn you know my alignment too? pretty powerful rolecop

[OkaPoka]

licketyquickety

[OkaPoka]

@mod would the infected know they are infected?

Answered via PM.
~Covid 19

[OkaPoka]

im more inclined to believe voted's argument b/c its shitty game design to have invisible infected people so lets just assume this is not shitty game design?

[OkaPoka]

im not allowed to ask mech questions in thread but i suggest everyone pm the mod and get an answer

jake how did you word your question?

[OkaPoka]

lets consolidate some wagons this game is boring

[OkaPoka]

i havent read the game

so sell me

my dms are open (not really its a saying)

[OkaPoka]

see most of the time id laugh at people's cases and just ignore them but here you have a real opportunity to pocket me since i actually have no clue about this game

[OkaPoka]

i feel like your case is a little contradictory

[OkaPoka]

typically when you accuse people of having barren isos they cant also be accused of having overjustified cases

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: saudade

ur case is utter shite but its the best case ive read so far

my dms are open

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: saudade

ur case is utter shite but its the best case ive read so far

my dms are open

Hey Oka.
I’m sorta lazy but can you look at Hoctac’s ISO and tell me exactly what his case his on my processors slot.

what

[OkaPoka]

ircher is taking a hardline stance against answering in mech questions so i assume infected knowing their alignments or not isn't the actual problem but probably something about existence of cures

[OkaPoka]

quick r u claiming infected because i really dont want to guess

[OkaPoka]

wait dont answer that

[OkaPoka]

i love cult games ^_^

[OkaPoka]

hey quick would you bus here btw

[OkaPoka]

if you were theoretically scum

also to your best guess would what do you think infected would know

[OkaPoka]

under the guise of mechanical speculation what would infected know hmm thinking

really am interested in your opinion on this quick

[OkaPoka]

if you had to guess do you think infected would know anything about the scumteam

[OkaPoka]

its probably not worth lynching infected until the mafia are genocided, lynching infected is just a middleground tbh

[OkaPoka]

But I do not even know if I am infected or not, so Iunno.

infected would know if they are infected so are you explicitly saying something or should you just ignore this post instead to not explicitly confirm anything

[OkaPoka]

ok mastina those are a lot of words but from a quick glance your reasoning for scumreads refer to metatells that im not aware of so ?

[OkaPoka]

mastina can you elaborate on why you like to elaborate so much

[OkaPoka]

OkaPoka is a damn newb for abandoning me :,(

Oka should I be townreading you? I would like to hydra this game

YES YOU SHOULD BE TOWNREADING ME

WE CAN PRETEND TO BE A DOUBLEVOTER HYDRA

SELL ME ON SOMEONE

MY DMS ARE OPEN (NOT REALLY ITS A SAYING)

[OkaPoka]

so hypothetically if you were vt wouldn't the optimal play to your wincondition be to try and get converted? because a vt getting converted is +equity to town's wincon? interesting thoughts of a cult game WeirdChamp

[OkaPoka]

and i must say

theoretically since infected shouldn't be able to recruit it would be optimal for infected to claim they are infected so we can definitely lynch you because theoretically it would be optimal for town to lynch a claimed infected over anyone else due to nature of more town than scum

so just theoretically its optimal and to your win condition as infected to claim infected and in fact is bannable not to claim infected once you take into account town's mentality just saying

[OkaPoka]

so if you want to as infected claim infected without being banned just make the argument that claiming infected gives the intent of essentially buying your scumteam another day with another infected as theoretically scum will be able to infect more and more and letting infected players die does not really matter, since night actions for scum are theoretically stronger for scum as they neutralize townies as well

and if it so happens that say someone cures you, theoretically you would not be informed and to play against an imaginary theoretical cure is anti win con and low odds, so yes claim infected as infected

[OkaPoka]

UNVOTE:

saudade being forcereplaced monkaS

[OkaPoka]

i feel like this game is very hard and makes absolutely no sense until we are at least like 4-5 days in to understand the setup

the only thing that matters right now is for us to not attrition ourselves and burnout to quickly so lets just kill negative equity slots

[OkaPoka]

now i know absolutely nothing about game theory other than pop culture references but consider this: its possibly optimal for both parties to have infected claim and be lynched thereby creating some sort of nash equilibrium variant

the payoff of town lynching infected is not risking lynching a townie

the payoff of scum having infected claim and being lynched is changing another townie into an infected instead of possibly losing scum

and knowing ircher, who is a massive maths fan and to my knowledge is not a epidemiologist, maybe that's the intent of this game, a great game theory experiment

[OkaPoka]

so scum are you in for a win win situation

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: aristophanes

[OkaPoka]

i have a machine learning algorithm that says the chances of you being scum is 63%

[OkaPoka]

yes its a troll post wow thank you captain obvious

[OkaPoka]

you made bad post and i vote you for bad post

[OkaPoka]

no your strategy is flawless, ircher designed a game to create meta commentary on the destructiveness of mob mentality and lawlessness during a time of societal stress (pandemic)

[OkaPoka]

no im vt

[OkaPoka]

We are assuming players know they are infected on the night they get the virus.

I asked the mod. He said so.

Bullshit. I asked the mod and they said no comment.

VOTE: Voted

yo this needs to be revisited

[OkaPoka]

please pm the mod with the same question and get a response like PLEASE

[OkaPoka]

also Oka

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=82913

this is me calling the scum teams shots

why is this relevant and why do i care?

[OkaPoka]

i would like to ask everyone to pm the mod whether infected know they are infected

[OkaPoka]

because you are all lazy fucks i really doubt you guys pm'd the mod yet so go and pm the mod

[OkaPoka]

also Oka

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=82913

this is me calling the scum teams shots

why is this relevant and why do i care?

its not. I mean our last game u said I wouldn't be calling the scum teams shots. I'm calling the shots here and flawless victory. Dunno why so angry.

i did?

[OkaPoka]

i literally dont remember if you want to link me the post

[OkaPoka]

im not angry im literally bewildered its kinda just random? like you have a grudge against me and i dont even know why?

[OkaPoka]

i don't have any grudge

i mean you just called me out trying to prove something and im saying i dont remember;

and now you are saying im mad for a post that is tonally neutral

you placed anger onto me because you think I would be angry, as if you just proved me wrong, aka i slighted you or at least you perceived a slight against you in the past and now you want to make reparations for that

but im curious about the context of why i said you wouldnt call the shots, since i literally dont remember

[OkaPoka]

and like me scummetaing you has literally never come up this game so its definitely not relevant to this game, your litigating your own worth in really, an out of game context that shouldn't really be relevant here because its actually anti-scum wincon and anti-town wincon to project paranoia so literally the only explanation is that i slighted you and you do indeed, hold a grudge against me

which is why its important for you to link that quote since i don't remember it and i don't know why and its really bad if you hold this slight agaisnt me when i am clueless about it, leaving an out of game influence -unresolved

[OkaPoka]

now I have indeed pm'd the mod, and have received the explicit response that yes-indeed infected are informed that they are infected

it is curious that when I brought up the comment between Jake and Voted, the immediate response was the Jake was in the right and Voted was in the wrong by the likes of Nero, TSE, Quick which implies they didn't do their due diligence on the subject matter or the weirder explanation which is that the mod is telling people different things.

Do I think there is a world where the entire scumteam is somehow Jake/Nero/Quick/TSE? no, I really doubt it. But I do think at least one of these townies are being lazy fucks and being reaffirmed by scum to push misinformation.

[OkaPoka]

nero respond to me please?

[OkaPoka]

FTR, I never pmed the mod. Voted just seemed mildly scummy to me for other reasons and that's why I said what I said. It had nothing to do with a 1v1 between him and Jake. Although IG that means Jake is lying so....

im curious about me saying you won't call the shots as scum because i want to resolve this issue asap since no matter what you say, i still think you feel like i slighted you and like it would put me at ease to resolve this. also please pm the mod

[OkaPoka]

Some analysis:

Jake has stated

We are assuming players know they are infected on the night they get the virus.

I asked the mod. He said so.

Bullshit. I asked the mod and they said no comment.

VOTE: Voted

And I asked

@mod would the infected know they are infected?

Answered via PM.
~Covid 19

Which, I will be completely upfront, the mod replied in the affirmative.

Which means that either a) Jake sucks at wording his questions b) the mod is giving different people different answers c) Jake is straight up lying

Let's tackle a) Jake sucks at wording his questions

We are assuming players know they are infected on the night they get the virus.

I asked the mod. He said so.

Bullshit. I asked the mod and they said no comment.

VOTE: Voted

I asked if infected know if they are infected. Mod said yes.
The mod doesn't like you, probably.

Jake's either trolling or he worded the question differently in a way which the mod couldn't answer.

Both of these posts are basically questioning Jake's questioning and Jake has now made ~12 posts since these posts so either he missed them which if it is the case

jake please tell us how you worded the question of whether the infected would be informed of being infected to the mod

or he's just ignoring them which I don't want to hold your hand to a conclusion, but ignoring the question is anti town and lynching negative equity slots is a good thing.

b) Mod is giving different people different answers?

Okay let's just say this is true for whatever reason, then its probably tied to your role/alignment.

jake would you have any role explanations as to why you would receive a different answer than say, a vt?

c) Alright fine, I can't in good faith assume people can't word simple questions and don't think the mod is bastard enough to give different responses. So he's lying?

Well lets take the good faith, Jake is town route of he's lying out of his ass.

Lying as town, can be a very strong tool. It does a few things

1) It confuses scum because scum usually have to assume that town are being honest to play around, and if town are being wildcards and lie, they can create an artificial advantage against scum by essentially forcing them commit to a bad plan.

So why would Jake!town lie?

Answer 1) Role reasons, he wants to protect some information that town him has. We can strike this one out of the books because literally anyone can pm the mod and get an answer
2) The RadiantCowbells style, where you lie about your reads and be cagey to draw out reactions and such. I mean sure, we can leave this option open and have Jake explain to us later why he wanted to ellicit reactions. Perhaps he has just outed the scum in Nero/Quick/TSE

Or of course Jake can be scum and push misinformation. That's pretty reasonable.

[OkaPoka]

We are assuming players know they are infected on the night they get the virus.

I asked the mod. He said so.

Bullshit. I asked the mod and they said no comment.

VOTE: Voted

yo this needs to be revisited

voted prob is scum, ya

We are assuming players know they are infected on the night they get the virus.

I asked the mod. He said so.

Bullshit. I asked the mod and they said no comment.

VOTE: Voted

yo this needs to be revisited

Good call.

If this starts a 1v1 I am going to side with Jake at this point.

VOTE: Voted

Chooo choooo.

VOTE: Voted

FTR, I never pmed the mod. Voted just seemed mildly scummy to me for other reasons and that's why I said what I said. It had nothing to do with a 1v1 between him and Jake. Although IG that means Jake is lying so....

and now we have this series of posts


nero claims to have just previously thought voted was scum and basically ignored the content of my post - fine whatever. its still lazy not to pm the mod and you should definitely pm the mod. like fuck man you can literally just quote my question and ask the mod that. if someone who has been in this game for a bit wants to help and do some legwork to track nero's reads on voted it'd be nice.

actually wait i just iso skimm'ed quick and quick is a fucking liar just fucking lyncing quick what the fuck

Spoiler: Breakdown of reads on every single slot on the game

To reference my last readslist:

Nero Cain
No łynch/Voted

Auro
Vecna/TrueSoulEnergy
Miss Lynch/OkaPoka

Quick
Hoctac

Elements/Nahdia
Alchemist21
davesaz

Saudade
farside22/gobbledygook
Tchill13

Flavor Leaf
50 Judge Powers

Jake the Wolfie
5G Tower

momo/Creature
Aristophanes

I have zero doubts about anyone in the Miss Lynch/OkaPoka tier and above. Nero Cain this game is absolutely never scum. No lynch/Voted is literally an innocent child and thus cannot be scum. Auro is also at locktown of locktown stages (and frankly deserves to be protected by a doctor given just how town he is--Vecna versus Auro would've been tough to choose on, but while TSE is just as town Vecna's a better gamesolver than TSE whereas Auro is comparable to Vecna); this is not him as scum. Vecna was firmly in his towngame and literally nothing TSE could do would ever ruin my townread there (not that TSE could, given that TSE is also playing to

his

towngame, too).

Miss Lynch was also in this tier due to everything being town, and also being town for Enter. OkaPoka's posting also continues the trend, as he is playing in a way that I don't think he does if he were scum.


When it comes to everyone below that tier, there's obviously doubts on everyone, save for Creature and Aristophanes (who I remain pretty sure are scum--not 100% absolutely, I do have doubts, but those doubts are paranoia more than legitimate).


Quick has been overwhelmingly acting as I would expect him to if he were town, from my memory of him as a player. Everything he does just radiates the aura of being town, and his progression in reads displays a nuance I wouldn't expect him to be able to display as scum. He has reads and reasons that show a trajectory of thought to them that, moonlogicky as they can be, have a reasonability to them that show what appears to be actual, genuine thought in them, in a way that I don't think he can fake as scum.

The doubt comes from a combination of not having seen him play in a long time, not being all to familiar with him now, not having perfect memory of him, others having displayed suspicion on him and many of said players suspecting him also being townreads and me wanting to trust their assessments of him, and that it's not utterly impossible for a scum player to play the way he has.

He is my strongest non-locktown read because while those aforementioned doubts are strong enough to keep him from being in the locktown tier, I feel like they are more in the realm of paranoia than reasonable doubt.


Hoctac is also equally as town to Quick, due to a similar presence. Hoctac's posts contain a unique mixture of shitposting and gamesolving in a way that is incredibly hard to balance as scum, and I can trace where Hoctac's more serious gamesolving posts come from as well as see why Hoctac's less serious posts are being made. Overwhelmingly, Hoctac radiates the aura of a town player who is at ease in this game, and I struggle to see how scum could do what Hoctac has done so fluently and naturally.

The doubt here comes from utter unfamiliarity with Hoctac as a player. I have no clue what Hoctac is like as town and scum, no frame of reference for whether this is normal from him as any alignment, no real idea of whether Hoctac is town or scum by meta. (Plus, multiple slots being suspicious of him and me wanting to trust that they're onto something with said suspicion, and him being a borderline-lurker.) I will say that, disregarding meta, Hoctac would be one of my strongest townreads this game, and it is only this lack of familiarity with meta keeping Hoctac from being locktown.

Given that, that suspicion is firmly in the realms of mostly-paranoia.


Elements might've initially struck my scumdar, but later Elements posting greatly improved this read, because it actually looked like what I expect from Elements when he is town: radiating the aura of mislynch bait, but with content that shows a town mindset to it rather than a scum one. This was enough for a reasonably strong read.

Nahdia since then has been largely net-neutral to that read, neither strengthening it nor really weakening it, doing pretty much nothing to the slot, outside of paranoia of "what if I was wrong?" due to Nahdia not being as gamesolvey as I would like. So maybe, maybe a bit weaker than when the slot was Elements, but if so, due to feelings that are more borne from paranoia than anything else. The doubts I get from Nahdia don't actually feel like they're alignment indicative, so much as it is I am probably doubting Nahdia for being...well, Nahdia. So given that the doubts probably spurn from paranoia rather than reasonable doubts, the townread remains fairly strong.


Alchemist21 is below Nahdia for good reason. I initially thought that this might be a lurker-scumgame from Alchemist, and that feeling hasn't entirely subsided. He's still overall fairly lowkey this game and things feel like he

could

be a scum player contributing to the scum planning. He's the first read where I feel like my doubts aren't paranoia, but actually reasonable doubts to have due to him not radiating town everywhere. With Alch, instead of radiating town, it's more like we get bouts, small bursts where he shows he's more likely town, followed by a bunch of posts (or even a lack thereof) that basically nullify that boon. There's also a number of slots that have held him as suspicious, too.

...But, that having been said: I just get the gut feeling that Alch is town here. He's one of the strongest gut-based townreads that I have in this game. If not THE strongest gut-townread I have. It's just, between not thinking this is his scumgame and thinking that he looks town, I get the strong sense that he is town.


davesaz is definitely below Nahdia, albeit not by much, but I'm not actually sure if he's below, above, or equal to Alch in levels of townness. I will say that, overwhelmingly, he does feel town to me, but I admit, this is actually more effort than I'd expect from davesaz in a game--that's counterbalanced though by it being more effort than I'd expect from davesaz

regardless of his alignment

, so that means regardless of town or scum, he's performing at a higher level than I would expect, meaning that tryharding is almost assuredly not a scumtell.

Basically, my doubts on davesaz come from: I'm not intimately familiar with his meta; I don't expect him to perform at this high of a level; there are many players suspicious of him and I want to trust that they are onto something; I don't think I have a historically good davesaz read-rate so my townread on him could be an erroneous one borne from me not knowing how to read him.

I don't think these fears are entirely unfounded, so it's not

entirely

paranoia, but I think it's so close to being basically paranoia that it might as well be paranoia. By and large, this feels like a case where he should be town, because my reasons for thinking he wouldn't be are, by and large, not solid, and self-evidently flawed. With the reasons to think that he's not town being self-evidently flawed, and the reason that I think he's town being fairly solid (he's putting in a strong performance here when he has little reason to as scum), that means that balance of probability, he is far more likely to be town than scum.


Saudade is where he is at for good reason. I'm tempted to die on a hill and double down on defending him here because yes I see he is being wagoned right now (I was caught up as of me starting to post, that is, I read everything before 3245--haven't read the stuff after that, will do so after finishing here), but truth be told he's one of my most-conflicted reads. This entire tier, him, the farside slot, FL (he's listed below in a tier but he's also among the conflicted reads), and Tchill, are precisely that;

Of all the reads in the game, these four are the three I am most back-and-forth on.

Saudade in particular, I did initially scumread him and his content, but his later posting showed a direction that I thought was town-indicative. But, I am very much not familiar with him as a player and there's a wagon on him driven by multiple players who I trust to be town, and also to be more familiar with him, and those are reasonable doubts to have.


farside radiated town to me, but never to the extent where I could locktown her as part of the locktown tier. She may have been one of my strongest townreads in the non-locktown tier, but Turkey has utterly killed that townread altogether--the turkey that I am seeing here is

not

the Turkey that I've come to know and respect as one of the best scumhunters in 2020. The Turkey that I know is hyper-active, a hyper-poster who produces boatloads of content and is one of the best damn solvers around. This Turkey has done none of that. The Turkey I know is utterly an overachiever, putting in a ton of extra effort into games; this game he...isn't.

This is pretty much entirely a debate of replacement versus original holder of the slot. If I were judging by farside's content, I'd call the slot rock-solid town; judging by Turkey's content, I'd call the slot arguably just as strong a scumread as the likes of Creature and Aristophanes.


Tchill's too low on the list as posted above, since he should be above both farside/Turkey and Saudade. By content and by meta, he'd be a townread because I've liked what I've seen and from what I know of his meta this looks to be him as town since it doesn't seem to match what I know of his scumgame. He's similar in Quick in how he's someone that is producing thoughts that, while I may not agree with, I understand where they come from and can trace the thought of, and is incredibly active, and has a meta that I have some awareness of but not perfect awareness of.

It is that lack of perfect awareness, similarly to Quick, where the doubt on the townread comes from. He is someone who could be hyper-active scum; of all the slots in the game, if this game were to have a hyperactive scum, he is by FAR the most probable contender. I am not intimately familiar with his meta, and his content is not something scum could never ever produce, and those who scumread him do bring up some valid criticisms of his play, and I want to have faith that they are onto something.

So, the doubts on him don't feel like they're paranoia, but on the other hand, in spite of the doubts feeling reasonable, not feeling like paranoia, they also don't feel right to me, because him being town feels right. He's definitely not the strongest gut-townread I have, but I'd say he's among them, because while I may not have any solid evidence that this is him as town, it

feels

like he's town. I still have twangs of doubt, where I think, "what if he's scum? He could be, given X Y Z", but overall he's more town than scum to me.


FL is...well. Flavor Leaf. If you think that he's an easy read in general, it's a dubious claim at best. Saying he's an easy read in

this

game would make you an outright fucking liar because he isn't. I still lean town on him more than scum, but like. *hitoshrug* It's very hard to get a read here.


50 Judge Powers is a read which is weaker so the low placement is appropriate, but unlike the reads above, this one doesn't have much doubt to it so much as it is, that's basically the only really appropriate read to hold I feel. I feel like Almost50's content this game isn't enough to earn him a locktown or lockscum status, but between my own read and wanting to trust the others' reads on him, I do think town is more likely than scum, albeit not to the same margin as some others who have him as town.


Jake the Wolfie is a case of a read whose contributions shifted overnight. On D1 Jake was a lurksack of lurksacks, doing absolutely fuckall of anything, being a worthless zero-content slot who never did anything. While the current Jake of D2 hasn't been the MOST content-filled, there's a night and day difference, because this Jake I get townie vibes from his posting and what he's doing, and that he's been giving things which look town.

If Jake has a meta of being a lurker as town and active as scum, my read on Jake would be that Jake was the N1 infect, originally town but currently not town. But otherwise, if that's not Jake's meta, then...fucked if I know. The improvement makes it less likely that he's an original groupscum, but I have no clue.


5G has done basically nothing town the entire game other than lurk. This isn't a lockscum read, but more a POE solve read, in that I have townreads on most of the other players and 5G is not among them.


momo, I feel like I had a legitimate initial reason for the scumread on the slot: momo confirmed, but never posted. Creature came in and then proceeded to...lurk. While Creature has stepped up more recently and his meta has changed, where he can have inactive towngames and hyperactive scumgames, he still has the tendency to, as scum, not give effort in a game until there is a need to give it--which fits this game.

Moreover, there is a particular thing that I look for from Creature when he is town compared to when he is scum--and even in his more recent posting, this is absent. I'll hint at this when I quote his posts in a bit (after I finish this wall, I've still got pages of pages to respond to and the content I am referring to is in there), but basically, there is a critical factor that is absent from Creature that I'd expect to see if he were town, and simply put, I haven't seen him yet.


Aristophanes is, simply put, in his scum meta. This is him as scum. I'm not referring to the utter lack of content from him, though that is a contributing factor; the content he

has

given is

still

his scumgame. Basically, there's Aristophanes scumtells unrelated to activity, and he's tripping them. (That said, yes, the lack of content from him is still, contrary to his assertions, an indicator that he's scum. Similarly to Creature above, just because his meta has shifted where he can be hyperactive as scum and can be a lurksack as town does not mean he doesn't have a predisposition to vastly favor being a lurksack as scum.)

To put that into an updated readslist:
Nero Cain
No łynch/Voted

Auro
Vecna/TrueSoulEnergy
Miss Lynch/OkaPoka

Quick
Hoctac

Elements/Nahdia
Alchemist21 + davesaz

Tchill13

Saudade
farside22/gobbledygook

Flavor Leaf
50 Judge Powers

Jake the Wolfie
5G Tower

momo/Creature
Aristophanes

Very loosely. As I said, Nero and Voted cannot be scum; Auro, TSE, and Oka weren't starting scum but god only knows who was infected.
Quick and Hoctac strongest townreads with virtually zero doubts; Nahdia, Alch, and davesaz pretty strong townreads but not to the 'strongest' townreads with slightly greater (but still more paranoia than not) doubts. Tchill probably town but with some small doubts; Saudade a townread but with doubts; farside/Turkey a literal divide in the occupier of the slot; FL and 50 Judge both weak town; Jake null; 5G nullscum; Creature and Aristophanes solidly scum.

I agree with almost all of your reads... roughly speaking. If we take Creature and Ari at the bottom and put them somewhere in the middle and put FL at the top, that's more or less my Reads List.

he literally agrees with mastina that voted is lock town and jake is towards the bottom and now he's siding with jake for something that jake lied about? lmfao

he's being appeasing lmao bye bye

VOTE: quick

[OkaPoka]

no offense nero but if you are scum you aren't deciding the night kill

I'm not sure why you said that.

to me, u seemed a lil' angry in 3507

like I'm not mad or anything but I just thought it was a lil' funny you believe that and then when I do roll scum and call the shots it ends up in a flawless victory and I wanted to show you. No clue what 3519 is about.

DUDE IM ASKING YOU TO LINK ME THE POST WHERE I SAY YOU DONT CALL THE SHOTS AS SCUM

I DONT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT

PRETEND IM AN AMNESIAC HERE AND I NEED TO KNOW ABOUT MY PAST WAFASDFASD

[OkaPoka]

More or less where I am rn...

Jake, dave, Auro
mastina, Tchill, farside, Vecna, Voted
Hoctac, Ari, FL, Miss Lynch, Nero
Nhadia
Saudade
Creature
5G

WHAT THE FUCK

[OkaPoka]

DUDE NERO

OK YEAH

SORRY

I REMEMBER NOW

I SAID THAT BECAUSE YOU JUST REPLACED IN

[OkaPoka]

QUICK WHATS THE OTHER HALF OF THAT POST QUICK WHAT IS THE OTHER HALF OF THAT POST

[OkaPoka]

Some analysis:

Spoiler: Other unneeded quote text

Jake has stated

We are assuming players know they are infected on the night they get the virus.

I asked the mod. He said so.

Bullshit. I asked the mod and they said no comment.

VOTE: Voted

And I asked

@mod would the infected know they are infected?

Answered via PM.
~Covid 19

Which, I will be completely upfront, the mod replied in the affirmative.

Which means that either a) Jake sucks at wording his questions b) the mod is giving different people different answers c) Jake is straight up lying

Let's tackle a) Jake sucks at wording his questions

We are assuming players know they are infected on the night they get the virus.

I asked the mod. He said so.

Bullshit. I asked the mod and they said no comment.

VOTE: Voted

I asked if infected know if they are infected. Mod said yes.
The mod doesn't like you, probably.

Jake's either trolling or he worded the question differently in a way which the mod couldn't answer.

Both of these posts are basically questioning Jake's questioning and Jake has now made ~12 posts since these posts so either he missed them which if it is the case

jake please tell us how you worded the question of whether the infected would be informed of being infected to the mod

For innocuous reasons bestowed to me by the mod, I am not allowed to quote exactly what I asked the mod. Paraphrasing would not help either.

okay so is voted/me a liar ?

[OkaPoka]

dude what about my case moved jake from your top townslot to your voting slot

like my cases are literally not some magical wizardry

[OkaPoka]

jake please try and explain why you reacted the way you did when you voted voted then. because like it really seems like you two are explicitly contradicting each other by virtue of mod and you haven't taken it back. but now you are implying that is not a contradiction and there is room for resolution. like what the fuck is going on

[OkaPoka]

QUICK WHATS THE OTHER HALF OF THAT POST QUICK WHAT IS THE OTHER HALF OF THAT POST

Stop using all caps, ffs.

My point was never to say I agree with all mastinas reads to the DEGREES that she has who as what, just generally where I would people as Town/Scum. This

should

make sense to you.

ok sure

but can you explain what part of my case made so much sense to you that jake went from a top townread to now as implied with your vote, bottom of your PoE

[OkaPoka]

like what part of my case made so much sense that you didn't see that before.

[OkaPoka]

holy shit whatever someone else can pick up the pieces if they want this game has gone full bizarro and im not too good with words in this state and its going go circular

VOTE: jake

this can die until jake can reasonably explain what happened instead of hiding

[OkaPoka]

lets try another route then

jake does your vote on voted still stand?

[OkaPoka]

in fairness, Jake and voted have contradictory answers so it makes it seem like one is lying, I don't feel like its some crzy logic that Quick sees this and goes "hey Jake is scum!"

ofc could abuse that as well. If Jake is town.

see if anyone else did that id be fine but quick explicitly took the position before that jake was town and voted was the scum in the exchange

idk really anymore, i feel like my case was pretty self explanatory, i just wanted to put it down in words and did not expect to change people's minds, just bring more people into the conversation but like i changed someone's mind and now i don't know how to reacT???

[OkaPoka]

lets try another route then

jake does your vote on voted still stand?

I am interested in diving into who voted V.

jake why did you vote voted originally btw? was it because you felt like you saw a contradiction and now you see that you made a poor choice of words? can you give us a whiff of why the contradiction happened? wording? role?

[OkaPoka]

jake ill dive into other people once you are resolved one way or another

[OkaPoka]

meh. jake is giving pretty shit answers and hiding behind the threat of a modkill. i think reasonably jake can give a better hint as to what he's thinking and why certain things transpired the way they did without eating a modkill. and if its hard, sucks to suck welcome to mafia. so until he at least attempts that he should eat rope.

[OkaPoka]

lets try another route then

jake does your vote on voted still stand?

I am interested in diving into who voted V.

jake why did you vote voted originally btw? was it because you felt like you saw a contradiction and now you see that you made a poor choice of words? can you give us a whiff of why the contradiction happened? wording? role?

The vote on V was because of boredom with the staleness from my PoV. I could have just let V's comment brush away, but because I wanted to feel somewhat useful, I threw some cards down on the table.

so like you added the comments about "bullshit, mod says no comment" for the shits and giggles? or are they true and why you voted him?

[OkaPoka]

because you are all lazy fucks i really doubt you guys pm'd the mod yet so go and pm the mod

i really have an issue with the game getting caught up on mechanic semantics. Thats gotta be an experience ruiner for the mod who was probably super excited about this setup.

that said, all this avenue of action will do is create a "he said, she said" argument.

false equivalency this is not a he said, she said argument

everyone can pm the mod and everyone will get the same answer. and if everyone doesn't then we figure out a piece of the setup being that the mod gives different answers.

so seriously, suck it up and pm the mod, ircher's not going to be hurt by you trying to figure out how his setup works. in fact he's probably fuming that people are suggesting he'd make such a horrible setup where people aren't sure of their wincondition.

[OkaPoka]

like if you don't pm the mod about this setup and you want to continue to say mAyBe InFeCtEd DoNt KnOw, your basically saying to ircher you are a horrible game designer who doesn't care about player experience. or you could just pm him now and ask him so you can be assured the ircher is legitimately a good game designer

[OkaPoka]

lets try another route then

jake does your vote on voted still stand?

I am interested in diving into who voted V.

jake why did you vote voted originally btw? was it because you felt like you saw a contradiction and now you see that you made a poor choice of words? can you give us a whiff of why the contradiction happened? wording? role?

The vote on V was because of boredom with the staleness from my PoV. I could have just let V's comment brush away, but because I wanted to feel somewhat useful, I threw some cards down on the table.

so like you added the comments about "bullshit, mod says no comment" for the shits and giggles? or are they true and why you voted him?

They were true. I wouldn't give out false info, but I do hide true info.

so its true you pm'd the mod about whether the infected know that they are infected and got the response "no comment"?

[OkaPoka]

LMFAO JAKE REALLY YOU WANT TO TAKE THE HIGHGROUND OF SCUMHUNTING? AS FAR AS I CAN TELL THE ONLY SCUMHUNTING YOU DID TODAY WAS SAY VOTED WAS A LIAR AND VOTE HIM FOR IT. GET OUT WITH YOUR BULLSHIT

[OkaPoka]

i mean pretty clearly jake is baffling with bullshit, please just lynch him

[OkaPoka]

Do I think there is a world where the entire scumteam is somehow Jake/Nero/Quick/TSE? no, I really doubt it. But I do think at least one of these townies are being lazy fucks and being reaffirmed by scum to push misinformation.

who would be scum of the group here?

They're all coming off as lazy trolls atm. the TSE slot is explicitly TR'd by vecna's actions.

the other 3 could be town or scum but theres not much to push an actual scum case there.

if anything I've seen nc and quick be called obv town and jake is getting somewhat pushed.

i made a jake case earlier and jake is hiding under the threat of a modkill to avoid actually answering me, he's being way too vague and trying to use good faith of townies not to get him modkilled as a reason not to engage

we can go further down the list if jake decides to project town or flips

[OkaPoka]

i do think quick has scum equity but like I cannot be the one to engage with quick because that requires me to read this entire game and understand the vibe of reads this game and how quick has played politically around that, but for what its worth, what ive seen today is very scum indicative. however of course, i dont have a full picture of quick and understanding that slot requires a full picture.

tse isn't even playing and is a low effort troll yes.

nero also require a fuller picture but also is lower priority than the jake/quick dynamic.

[OkaPoka]

Do I think there is a world where the entire scumteam is somehow Jake/Nero/Quick/TSE? no, I really doubt it. But I do think at least one of these townies are being lazy fucks and being reaffirmed by scum to push misinformation.

who would be scum of the group here?

They're all coming off as lazy trolls atm. the TSE slot is explicitly TR'd by vecna's actions.

the other 3 could be town or scum but theres not much to push an actual scum case there.

if anything I've seen nc and quick be called obv town and jake is getting somewhat pushed.

i made a jake case earlier and jake is hiding under the threat of a modkill to avoid actually answering me, he's being way too vague and trying to use good faith of townies not to get him modkilled as a reason not to engage

we can go further down the list if jake decides to project town or flips

I'd be happy to answer every question you have when it inevitibly proves me as town, either by reason or by sword.

i mean you can go ahead and try and explain your play for this entire dayphase as a start. like the actual more explicit reason why you voted voted, what you were trying to accomplish etc.

[OkaPoka]

meh, someone else can take the fight for now

its a team game and if more townies aren't willing to aggressively engage in this and instead to choose to sit idly by then this game is lost anyways

we have some good people in thread right now, but we really need this to be a 20 player game and have more people push the envelope, otherwise the people who actually exist in thread now are just going to move on and stop playing

[OkaPoka]

Honestly, why are we not lynching Creature rn?

we can sort creature later, i think with your changing of positions you agree that these are some important slots to sort and right now the last thing we want to do is draw attention away from a focused pool of {jake,quick,nero,tse} with legitimate scumcases on them and pursue lurkslots that are really just apathy lynches

[OkaPoka]

there's a scum case on me?

in the general poe sense, yes

in the individual casework, no

[OkaPoka]

meh, someone else can take the fight for now

its a team game and if more townies aren't willing to aggressively engage in this and instead to choose to sit idly by then this game is lost anyways

we have some good people in thread right now, but we really need this to be a 20 player game and have more people push the envelope, otherwise the people who actually exist in thread now are just going to move on and stop playing

Also I await for more questions.

ill let others ask you questions so i can see how much effort i should actually put into this game, but also people are waiting for mod responses to continue so ill let the thread breathe for a bit

[OkaPoka]

Wait why is everyone asking the mod a question?

basically a while back Voted claimed that infected know they are infected while Jake claimed they don't know they are infected, and so were in conflict.
I, along with a few others, brought it up that Jake was in the wrong after asking the mod. Nothing really came about it though, Jake never responded much to it.


I just recently brought it up again, but Nero, Quick, TSE all sided with Jake if Jake/Voted were to go down, which by the way at the time was everyone online. So I felt that people weren't doing their due diligence because Jake was clearly in the wrong and started casing them and asking them to pm the mod about it since I doubted that the entire scumteam was indeed Jake, Quick, Nero, TSE but I felt that scum was in that pool, siding with townies that were pushing misinformation. I then worked on casing them and arrived at some decent cases on Jake and Quick and stopped because I felt like it was enough work for the day. This all happened in the past like 10 pages by the way. Start here and read up to now, its good stuff I promise.

So now more people are pming the mod and arriving at the same conclusion as I am, Jake was lying somehow and now Jake is being vague and acting suspicious about his question to the mod, saying that he would be modkilled if he was to be transparent. I'm arguing that he's just bullshitting and town!him could figure out a way to clarify and rectify the situation without being word for word, but alas it is what it is. Now we do have Nero/Quick who seem to be pushing the so called, too scummy to be scum angle which I mean, I don't feel like engaging in. But it is key to note that Quick has basically flipped on Jake like 3 times in recent succession, although one of the instances is in question and could in good faith, not be a flip.

[OkaPoka]

If you are catching up, please start at

here and read all the way up to this post, probably the most important pages that have transpired so far.

[OkaPoka]

Jake you forget that you took initiative in pushing voted for his question to the mod. It is you who found a contradiction and pushed it, not him. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[OkaPoka]

And Quick, I really don't care if you managed to nail me as town first. That's not indicative of anything except that you have me as town.

[OkaPoka]

Like if you did lie and not ask the mod anything, then of course we go back to the square of why did you lie? You can't still explain that and the most reasonable answer to me is an insidious one.

[OkaPoka]

Quick, if you believe Jake is town. And let's assume you are town from your PoV. Do you really think that nero/TSE are town? You think its possible that four townies collectively shit the bed and sided with a lie and none of them did their due diligence?

[OkaPoka]

Yeah except now you are saying its not a contradiction? Or are you maintaining that Voted is a liar?

[OkaPoka]

I kinda want to SR everyone who is nagging Jake about the "no comment" post.
Seriously folks, it's easy to mess up a question in such a way that the mod can't answer without spilling the key details of a setup.
There are cases where almost any reaction by the mod to a question, including no reaction at all, could spoil the setup.

There are better reasons to SR the slot. I propose we look at people who look like they are genuinely uninformed and want to learn alignments vs people who look like they don't care about that or want to fit actions into a read. That is to say, play mafia. What a concept!

Jake is maintaining that him and Voted are in contradiction. He hasn't taken his Voted vote back this entire time.

[OkaPoka]

Quick, if you believe Jake is town. And let's assume you are town from your PoV. Do you really think that nero/TSE are town? You think its possible that four townies collectively shit the bed and sided with a lie and none of them did their due diligence?

I think you are being a terrible town leader, how does that sound?

That could possibly be fair. I might be wrong on you and yes that would make me a bad town leader in your eyes, but also you haven't answered my question.

[OkaPoka]

Yeah except now you are saying its not a contradiction? Or are you maintaining that Voted is a liar?

It isn't a contradiction because we didn't ask the same damn question.

It's like saying that 1+1=10 is both wrong and right without asking what base we're in.

Except you voted vote and called him out saying Bullshit. Is it not hard to understand that to everyone else, it looks like you two are in contradiction? Like please, I just want to know what's up with you. Has your opinion on Voted changed?

[OkaPoka]

Quick, if you believe Jake is town. And let's assume you are town from your PoV. Do you really think that nero/TSE are town? You think its possible that four townies collectively shit the bed and sided with a lie and none of them did their due diligence?

I think you are being a terrible town leader, how does that sound?

That could possibly be fair. I might be wrong on you and yes that would make me a bad town leader in your eyes, but also you haven't answered my question.

Maybe you are just wrong and not them? How does that sound?

I might be wrong sure, but whats the alternatively explanation to my proposed two worlds? The last world is you four all scum.

[OkaPoka]

But that's twice you've dodged my question and tried to answer a question with a question.

Oooh, thrice. Still have yet to see engagement with the actual question.

[OkaPoka]

Jake is maintaining that him and Voted are in contradiction. He hasn't taken his Voted vote back this entire time.

What stake do you have in a vote on Voted?

Because its evident that Jake still thinks there is a contradiction no matter what he says.

[OkaPoka]

Quick, if you believe Jake is town. And let's assume you are town from your PoV. Do you really think that nero/TSE are town? You think its possible that four townies collectively shit the bed and sided with a lie and none of them did their due diligence?

I think you are being a terrible town leader, how does that sound?

That could possibly be fair. I might be wrong on you and yes that would make me a bad town leader in your eyes, but also you haven't answered my question.

Maybe you are just wrong and not them? How does that sound?

I might be wrong sure, but whats the alternatively explanation to my proposed two worlds? The last world is you four all scum.

You are not considering you are wrong here...

All four of us being Scum is bat shit crazy. Why does there NEED to be Scum in that group? How about you explain that... thoroughly.

I literally presented two worlds where all four of you are town or at least one of you are scum. ?

[OkaPoka]

My question presented a world where either all of you are town and shat the bed, or at least one of you are scum. You keep saying I'm wrong. So alas, the last world is all of you are scum.

[OkaPoka]

Jake you forget that you took initiative in pushing voted for his question to the mod. It is you who found a contradiction and pushed it, not him. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

In a world where I didn't lie, my actions are completely justified. I saw a contradiction and I announced it.

[OkaPoka]

But that's twice you've dodged my question and tried to answer a question with a question.

Oooh, thrice. Still have yet to see engagement with the actual question.

Are you saying here that 3708 wasn't an answer? The 2nd sentence looks like a pedit.
If it wasn't the answer then what's the question?

I've repeatedly given him chances to change his vote and he hasn't, its a shitty response but whatever. I don't like it, maybe he's being honest but if we set the bar that low where we can forgive play of I don't care enough to scumhunt when he's criticizing us for not scumhunting, then fuck it, good luck.

[OkaPoka]

Quick, if you believe Jake is town. And let's assume you are town from your PoV. Do you really think that nero/TSE are town? You think its possible that four townies collectively shit the bed and sided with a lie and none of them did their due diligence?

I think you are being a terrible town leader, how does that sound?

That could possibly be fair. I might be wrong on you and yes that would make me a bad town leader in your eyes, but also you haven't answered my question.

Maybe you are just wrong and not them? How does that sound?

I might be wrong sure, but whats the alternatively explanation to my proposed two worlds? The last world is you four all scum.

You are not considering you are wrong here...

All four of us being Scum is bat shit crazy. Why does there NEED to be Scum in that group? How about you explain that... thoroughly.

I literally presented two worlds where all four of you are town or at least one of you are scum. ?

Except that Jake is Scum in all your worlds, right? Well if he's Town, then you just shit the bed with your analysis of what is going on here.

No? Jake is not scum in all my worlds.

[OkaPoka]

Jake you forget that you took initiative in pushing voted for his question to the mod. It is you who found a contradiction and pushed it, not him. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

In a world where I didn't lie, my actions are completely justified. I

saw

a contradiction and I announced it.

yes, he saw a contradiction. I want him to explain how he saw it as a contradiction before and why it isn't a contradiction now. Why he was dodging Hectic's questions.

[OkaPoka]

I've repeatedly given him chances to change his vote and he hasn't, its a shitty response but whatever.

So you care more about the vote than the discussion. Chainsaw perhaps?

I do care about the discussion? He's not clearly explaining his thoughts? He's being weirdly avoidant of tackling his mental thought process and is resorting to I'm lazy, and I don't care as his primary responses whenever there is a gap in play.

[OkaPoka]

But that's twice you've dodged my question and tried to answer a question with a question.

Oooh, thrice. Still have yet to see engagement with the actual question.

Are you saying here that 3708 wasn't an answer? The 2nd sentence looks like a pedit.
If it wasn't the answer then what's the question?

I've repeatedly given him chances to change his vote and he hasn't, its a shitty response but whatever. I don't like it, maybe he's being honest but if we set the bar that low where we can forgive play of I don't care enough to scumhunt when he's criticizing us for not scumhunting, then fuck it, good luck.

I'm in a catch 22. Either I change my vote and get called scum for bending to the will of pressure, or I don't and get called scum for not bending.

In either case, I don't care that you scream and demand that people scumread me, and if they don't you'll scream even more.

Missing the forest for the trees. Your vote on Voted is not why I scumread you, its an example of the mentality I perceive as negative town equity so even if you are town, its a +ev for town situation.

[OkaPoka]

Jake you forget that you took initiative in pushing voted for his question to the mod. It is you who found a contradiction and pushed it, not him. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

In a world where I didn't lie, my actions are completely justified. I

saw

a contradiction and I announced it.

yes, he saw a contradiction. I want him to explain how he saw it as a contradiction before and why it isn't a contradiction now. Why he was dodging Hectic's questions.

It's not a contradiction because we asked two different questions and I assumed we asked the same general question when in reality wording matters.

okay, can you ask the mod what you can reveal about your original question? Like the thing is, lynching you is not a loss for town until you can project towniness, and the only way you can project towniness right now is explaining how the contradiction happened. I'm willing to concede that maybe I'm tunnelled onto something that will clear you if you could explain, so if you are scared then get mod to give you the greenlight to explain what you can explain.

[OkaPoka]

I've repeatedly given him chances to change his vote and he hasn't, its a shitty response but whatever.

So you care more about the vote than the discussion. Chainsaw perhaps?

I do care about the discussion? He's not clearly explaining his thoughts? He's being weirdly avoidant of tackling his mental thought process and is resorting to I'm lazy, and I don't care as his primary responses whenever there is a gap in play.

That's a shit reason to SR someone as someone who constantly gets lynched as Town for this...

its a good reason to scumread people because you aren't going to win anyways if there are so many townies s.t lynching all the deadweight will result in a loss. And raising the bar gives the wolves less room to hide.

[OkaPoka]

Jake you forget that you took initiative in pushing voted for his question to the mod. It is you who found a contradiction and pushed it, not him. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

In a world where I didn't lie, my actions are completely justified. I

saw

a contradiction and I announced it.

yes, he saw a contradiction. I want him to explain how he saw it as a contradiction before and why it isn't a contradiction now. Why he was dodging Hectic's questions.

It's not a contradiction because we asked two different questions and I assumed we asked the same general question when in reality wording matters.

okay, can you ask the mod what you can reveal about your original question? Like the thing is, lynching you is not a loss for town until you can project towniness, and the only way you can project towniness right now is explaining how the contradiction happened. I'm willing to concede that maybe I'm tunnelled onto something that will clear you if you could explain, so if you are scared then get mod to give you the greenlight to explain what you can explain.

I have Jake as one of my strongest TRs outside of this mess, so maybe you can try and do that too...

why is Jake your strongest TR? why should I TR him?

[OkaPoka]

if town wants to accept players like Jake and lower the bar for the wolves to hide, fine. Town can do what it wants. But remember, there are four scum who want the bar to be lowered for them to hide in so its easy to get discouraged. Better to stand up and let everyone else know you won't stand for a shitty standard of townplay that requires no effort. Not even asking for good reads, just asking for a level of effort and thought in play thats currently nonexistent in Jake. If that's too much ask from everyone, then the game might as well devolve into random lynching because who cares.

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: quick

flavor leaf, lets team up

[OkaPoka]

Its no secret that this game has been devoid of life and full of apathy and lurkers, a perfect brew for wolves to rise and take over the thread. But now a real effort by town can be made to clean up the streets and remove the criminals, raise the bar for townplay so the wolves can't hide. The wolves will want to drag us back to the slums and turn this thread into an apathetic void, so now is your time to stand with me and the rest of town and announce to the wolves that no, you won't accept shitty play as the bare minimum. You won't responses of I don't care turn you away, you won't let scum direct lynches on zero content slots. You want to create content and get this thread going, don't let ms.net boomers say, oh no thread is moving too fast, they signed up for a 21 player large, and its better to have a fast thread than whatever we had before.

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: quick

flavor leaf, lets team up

What exactly is your read on FL and why?

honestly I don't know, its fucking Flavor Leaf. But he will help breathe some life into this game and I welcome it and I reward it. He's not resorting to lazy tactics.

[OkaPoka]

Flavor, I agree that Jake/Quick probably are antialigned. I'm unsure which one of them are scum but I'm decently confident that one of them are scum. Also no pocket flavor, your pocketing me!

[OkaPoka]

I will continue to push that Jake/Quick needs to go today, but if we don't see contribution from the lurkslots soon then the pool will open up. Something has happened and we can play now. Fresh start.

[OkaPoka]

no jake can't be in this block, even if you think he is town his play has been so antitown that we can't reward it. maybe if he starts trying and playing, we can add him in though

[OkaPoka]

reserve the cool kids town block for not only people you townread, but people who are efforting as well. jake isn't there and he is antialigned with quick so its unresolved for now, but there is room for him

[OkaPoka]

reserve the cool kids town block for not only people you townread, but people who are efforting as well. jake isn't there and he is antialigned with quick so its unresolved for now, but there is room for him

Why do you think they're opposite alignments?

because I think that Quick is efforting way too hard to try and protect Jake so its probs not S-S

however Quick's read on Jake is very political and opportunistic, flipping around a lot, and Jake displays very little paranoia to it, +individually they are pretty scummy in a vacuum, so its not T-T

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: Jake

I've thought he was scum pretty much from the beginning, first for not trying to scumhunt at all which has been pretty high accuracy for me, and now also for the reasons inside the spoiler. I don't think it's too low information at this point to make it worthless.

we might not be together but in a way, we are together

[OkaPoka]

Jake, you have some breathing room now, take some time and scumhunt.

[OkaPoka]

everytime i feel like narrowing my pool someone does something to keep it open

no fucking way jake,quick,nero,tse are all town. they are forming a mini bloc of their own and it just feels so wrong

[OkaPoka]

everytime i feel like narrowing my pool someone does something to keep it open

no fucking way jake,quick,nero,tse are all town. they are forming a mini bloc of their own and it just feels so wrong

Who would you say is most and least likely scum in that group?

honestly jake/quick are interchangeable and nero/tse are interchangeable where jake/quick >> nero/tse

ill swap to jake if jake doesn't make me happy with his scumhunting but he has promised to up his game now that we aren't breathing down his neck

[OkaPoka]

everytime i feel like narrowing my pool someone does something to keep it open

no fucking way jake,quick,nero,tse are all town. they are forming a mini bloc of their own and it just feels so wrong

Are you actually VT or do you cure people? Honest answers only pls.

You coming out as infected?

[OkaPoka]

I presented an argument why infected outting themselves actually helps their wincondition. Also I am not a curer I promise and town don't lie, so infected should just go ahead and claim.

[OkaPoka]

KEKW

[OkaPoka]

funny how none of this is new information and you had maintained a townread on me now you pivot KEKW

[OkaPoka]

If death is needed for progress than so be it

[OkaPoka]

Jake, how far are you in your scumhunting

[OkaPoka]

idk y Oka keeps mentioning me as possible sm or w/e. He keeps sating that I am trying to form a bloc or w.e.

tse is playing extremely different.

quick is quick and I mainly ignore him.

I only think Jake is scum if he's like the worst scum ever wich is possible I guess. He's not a bad d2 flip.

I don't want to be paired with any of them and im not exactly sure why you even have a POE pool od Jake/TSE/Quick/ Nero

siding with bad town or scum is scum indicative or pocket indicative

[OkaPoka]

picking voted over jake

voting nahdia when the conversation was starting to focus in , that's just destructive to a town that has had troubles focusing in on something for the entire game and any townie should realize that there is a lot of value to be gained from having a focused, single conversation than what you were trying to do and quick ended up helping you, being distractions

because even if the pool is wrong, it gives town a chance to sort itself out with the same conversation, and you are just pissing over town trying to find unity

and then shading jake case multiple times, which maybe you do believe, but i really appears that the rest of teh cohorts do as well

[OkaPoka]

and i haven't even read day 1 yet, but the fact that town basically had no idea what they were doing when i replaced in, no unity, no attempt at gamesolving other than small fragmented cases on individual slots that end up being something along the lines of lurkslot zzz, means this town lacks real structure that is cohesive to scumhunting. being distracting and keeping town distracted and splintered is exactly what scum want, because again i want to emphasize, even if the pool might not be the winning pool, it gives town a common ground to work off of and actually maybe make progress and force the wolves to need to openwolf a bit to push their wincon. like whatever was happening before lets the wolves hide and claim NAI, and its clear this is what transpired because every attempt at casing i've read so far apart from maybe mastina, has relied on a common theme of lurkety lurk lurk and fluffity fluff fluff.

now that some concrete things are coming up, we need to conversation to tighten, and i see the same four people over and over trying to stop that from happening. of course townies are going to be caught, but more times than not, there is a wolf hiding in the den

[OkaPoka]

of course a consideration to be had is there is going to be deepwolves and very may have already infiltrated itself into townblocs, but right now in a time where town is in desperate need of good, focused conversation and a healthy environment to scumhunt, these "deepwolves" are actually acting pro town by helping town get itself on its feet and start thinking about this game differently to raise the bar and over time, make it increasingly hard to wolf. i don't care about killing the deepwolves yet, they are protown. We need to eliminate the so called easy scum and lynchbait, because this game is full of filth that makes it harder for the people who want to play, want to scumhunt, to find the wolves lurking in the mud.

[OkaPoka]

and no, if you are worried about the other lurkslots outside the pool of 4, i have not forgotten about them. but now is not the time, we need focus, but they will be cleaned up in the future. either by us, or they will clean themselves up because once a tipping point of players feel this environment is worth trying in, then the bar will be raised and the truly bad slots will find their way out of this game, one way or the other

[OkaPoka]

honestly lamist is needed because without it, you have whatever the fuck you call this game. isn't it fucking disgusting that quick is topposting twice as much as the next person and wields absolutely no influence on anybody's reads? isn't it fucking disgusting where you literally can't decide which lurker to lynch because half the playerlist are all lurkers and the other half had pretty much given up on actually efforting this game? i find it disgusting, because the bar is so fucking low

[OkaPoka]

snide comments like these have a place and a time in a high quality games, but you are seriously damaging the receptiveness to attempts by people trying to make this game better

i suppose i could just give and lurk it out like the other half of this list and leave this game to die, if you really want, whatever i guess. your call if you want to play a shitter game with random lynches and just attrition this one out until we ship of Theseus

[OkaPoka]

You did pick voted over jake verbally. You could say now you don't mean it, but now is when popular opinion is overwhelmingly against you.

We had this entire game to play your style nero, multiple conversation, multiple interactions. How far did that get you? Afaik, when i replaced in, game was dead. People were making lazy cases on lurkers, now there is hope in a hyperfocused conversation and we can work our ways out of this pit. FL leading on Quick is okay, Quick is part of my pool. Today should be Jake or Quick, majority decides the details.

I think your analysis maybe could be fair, but politically its unlikely that all four of you are town, my style of play makes enemies with town, and you might one of them. but I'll be the sacrificial lamb to make this game better to play

[OkaPoka]

gamestate is improving, but its not to where it should be. a 20 player game should have people complaining of activity rather than inactivity. its a large theme game and people who sign up for large theme games know what it entails. if player don't get their fill here, they will get their fill elsewhere and leave this game on the backburner. and besides, who can blame them? if you are efforting in society that doesn't care for it, then your going to stop efforting.

[OkaPoka]

so who has towntold then?

[OkaPoka]

Gimme your towncases on Quick/Nero/TSE/Flavor

[OkaPoka]

People were making lazy cases on lurkers, now there is hope in a hyperfocused conversation and we can work our ways out of this pit

What is there a conversation to be had about? You're just saying to vote Quick or Jake. That's not a "conversation"

majority decides the details.

not saying that my reads are always better but it's not like the majority always gets it right either.

I've written up cases and have asked people to engage with my cases.

[OkaPoka]

You're complaining a lot about the gamestate, but it's as though you're not reading my posts.

yeah that's my bad, i forget about recent things pretty quickly when esp. when im distracted

[OkaPoka]

oka why haven't u read d1? I remember when I replaced in and you fussed @ me for not reading. This is hypocritical @ least. Scummy @ best.

because i honestly don't care enough about this game yet to read d1, i care enough to try now but like im probably siteflaking after this game so death is a welcome friend

[OkaPoka]

like if you guys really dont like what im doing i can just low effort and coast, i dont care too much for mafia right now, and it should be evidenced by the fact that i replaced into a cultgame when i almost exclusively play very normal setups/opens/vanilla~mountain-esque setups

[OkaPoka]

i mean you can call it AtE but im being honest lol

do what you want, im indifferent to your opinion but if auro doesn't want me playing then i guess ill go into hiding

[OkaPoka]

auro doesn't want me playing then i guess ill go into hiding

Where have I implied that? I'm only disagreeing with your gamestate observations. I'm trying the same thing you are wrt your pool - consolidation onto Jake.

yay! ill keep trying then

[OkaPoka]

yeah that's my bad, i forget about recent things pretty quickly when esp. when im distracted

Nero: Mastina locktown reads him; activity and the type of posting indicate town.
TSE: Vecna was pretty much obvtown. TSE's posting affirms the townread, I think I'll figure it out if I'm somehow wrong here

I feel like if Oka is scum here, Jake and Quick could just be town and he's trying to limit scumhunting.

It's unnecessary effort to limit scumhunting when the wagons have already built up between them to this level.

hmm, mastina hasn't given us an update post recently so we can wait on that, but i know mastina can be BoP'able on some reads, are you sure you want to BoP her on nero?

I can check into Vecna if I want but like is there anything you want me to know before i dive into it and ask you more, also i dont know if i agree with TSE assessment, he's just different than his usual towngames and not in a wow super townie way

[OkaPoka]

Quick is pushing in every direction, paying minimal heed to his earlier thoughts.
What scum motivation do you see in that play?
Do you find any individual instances of him doing that that seem awkward? There's that A50 thing, but meh

i mean you disagree with my gamestate analysis but i feel like being distracting is what scum want and have probably contributed in doing so

[OkaPoka]

i feel lazy, if i can get a second and third on vecna ill drop tse for now

[OkaPoka]

fwiw ive played with quick before and he spent the entire game as town tunneling one player and they 1v1'd for almost the entire game while everyone else was engaged in a massive brawl

[OkaPoka]

fwiw ive played with quick before and he spent the entire game as town tunneling one player and they 1v1'd for almost the entire game while everyone else was engaged in a massive brawl

What game was that? You realize it's been a solid 2 years of therapy since then right?

newbie 1881

[OkaPoka]

fwiw ive played with quick before and he spent the entire game as town tunneling one player and they 1v1'd for almost the entire game while everyone else was engaged in a massive brawl

What game was that? You realize it's been a solid 2 years of therapy since then right?

newbie 1881

I was Scum that game. Wow.

wait really? lol oops

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: jake

[OkaPoka]

massive kekw

[OkaPoka]

fwiw ive played with quick before and he spent the entire game as town tunneling one player and they 1v1'd for almost the entire game while everyone else was engaged in a massive brawl

What game was that? You realize it's been a solid 2 years of therapy since then right?

newbie 1881

I was Scum that game. Wow.

wait really? lol oops

Yeah... Fucking "Oops" is right. How the fuck did you mess that up?

what do you want me to say? im a braindamaged deranged lunatic who suffers from amnesia?

[OkaPoka]

like this doesn't change the essence of why i scumread you, but im willing to back off for now because i concede i might have to reevaluate

[OkaPoka]

honestly where is gobbles

[OkaPoka]

i know this is going to like the fifth time ive said sometihng along these lines and i always break it BUT IM GOING TO TRY AND STEP BACK AND LET OTHERS LEAD

[OkaPoka]

if you want to broaden the pool of suspects, you need to do some more casework imo because afaik you are pushing nahdia for things im not sure are indeed AI

[OkaPoka]

i am open to broadening the conversation soon fwiw, i just want a few slots to weigh in before we move on and they decide to latch onto other things and not talk about this

[OkaPoka]

sorry quick but i don't really feel like interacting with you right now, im directing that question towards nero

[OkaPoka]

people can easily just ignore me if they feel like my direction is not helpful to the game

[OkaPoka]

i am open to broadening the conversation soon fwiw, i just want a few slots to weigh in before we move on and they decide to latch onto other things and not talk about this

this seems weird since you just blasted me for not wanting to exclusively focus on jake/quick.

its the context and timing that matters most, at the time you made your posts i felt like i was fighting an uphill battle to get people on board and focus in, but like now i can probably ease up

[OkaPoka]

like everything about mafia requires context, things don't just exist in a vacuum. like when i said you don't call the shots as scum, it was in the context of the game being that you literally just replaced into the game when we had no other replacements really in that game, so why would a replacement call the shots? i don't doubt you could call the shots if you played longer, but a fresh slot scum usually doesn't call the shots.

its not exactly analogous to this, but momentum and timing matters a lot, killing focus when its just being birthed is really easy because of how town momentum functions in a large game

[OkaPoka]

yes, u were fighting an uphill battle when the 2 biggest wagons were Quick and Jake....

look, when i vocalized my case on you, it was when Quick and Jake were the biggest wagons, yes.

however, when you were siding against me, the game was at a point where honestly, it was possible to shift momentum away from Quick/Jake and go back to pushing a lurkslot. that's my issue w you.

[OkaPoka]

And I am not saying you "for sure" slipped, but I am def taking it into consideration that you knew there was curers and claimed to be that role until you turned around and flipped your claim to VT. I still don't see any Town motive in claiming to be Curer from the onset of you posting here if you are just VT ftr.

We just got out of a game where a Town VT claimed roleblocker to draw a NK. That would be the Town motivation.

But Oka knew there was curers in the game before reading said game. That's what this hinges on.

tbh im just a genius ty yep yep

[OkaPoka]

there is no other explanation of how i know about cures except im a genius, wizard, magical, nothing at all pog

worship me for my intellect

[OkaPoka]

ahh im posting again okay i swear im going to stop posting now

[OkaPoka]

I highly doubt this day phase was ever going to end in a not Jake lynch and I feel like your "we need to have a conversation! was really stale b/c its been played out. The only options are lynch Jake and end the day phase or talk about something else. like there was no real reason to spend a week talking about a maybe slip.

i dunno, i felt like jake wasn't going to be the lynch because when i first brought up jake/voted the instinct of the other people active in thread was to side with voted over jake

maybe i got a really bad sample size and everyone else wanted jake over voted, but like there was quite a bit of people who vocalized that they didn't pm the mod yet to clarify so there is that

[OkaPoka]

ANYWAYS NOW I WILL STOP POSTING

[OkaPoka]

LOGGING OFF BYE

[OkaPoka]

zany thought; it could be jake+voted

[OkaPoka]

the ship of theseus

[OkaPoka]

greetings replacements! if you don't want to read this i don't blame you, a couple primers should be :

mod iso: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=82957&user_select[]=34183

read from

here

and
up to this post

If you are catching up, please start at

here and read all the way up to this post, probably the most important pages that have transpired so far.

its just skimming the vc + 170 posts so glgl