Death Curse

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Hello! How I've missed you all!

Vote: Pooky

Since town gets to control at least two of the eliminated each day (the first scroll bearer and at least one of the next two), I think that we should use a points based voting system to rank who gets E'd from the game. I propose that we all pick our top three suspects each day, rank them, first choice gets 4 points, second gets 2, and third gets 1. (The exact number of points is up for debate, but hey ho this is what I settled on as a pretty straightforward one, which I think is better that 3,2,1 at reflecting people wanting to E their first choices). I think adding up the points will give pretty good guidance to the cursed where to pass the scroll and will hopefully be more accurate than treating the scroll as a vengeful shot.

For the first pick, I'm pretty happy sticking with the usual voting, but I'd also be curious to see if using the ranking system produces good elims generally.

This is bad and wrong.

This is how scum wins a game like this.

We need to treat this game like DEFCON. We can vote to kill some people, but Nukes are people's business and their own reads. You can influence whatever you please, but forcing people to pick from the top of a point list only guarantees the scum know EXACTLY what they need to do to win.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Yeah I have enough faith in Noraa's ability to have read this game's setup that Pooky's discovery is enough to want to kill Noraa here.

Vote: Noraa

[Lady Lambdadelta]

appearing to forget the game is nightless in particular is probably a bad town slip to do though

unless you really want to appear like you did not check to see if the setup was nightless before signing up for the game
because that is not a town slip

p-edit
and that was the answer i was looking for
UNVOTE:

i will think about voting noraa
but i will probably wait for her response to the vote on her first
as i do not know if noraa is known to read setups or not

Prior to this game, Noraa talked about joining this game on discord. It's how I was able to join it, I usually don't look at games like this so they tend to pass me by.

Noraa was definitely excited to play this game, I would find it weird if she did not know the things she was claiming to be ignorant of in that post.

The truth is, this is just the best play on odds as well as likely to flip scum.

In the off chance Noraa is town, she can use that power of the death scroll to interrogate some people and do some solving for us.

And if she's scum I'm sure I'll get the scroll from her instantly for doing this, which will let ME fill that role.

It's win win. People should want to see Noraa die here, I think.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

yeah we're not leashing vengefuls.

We can try and guide them and if they're town they can listen and use their time, but....

leashing or planning an order is a mistake

[Lady Lambdadelta]

VOTE: Noraa

because of 104

I'm probably not going to super high effort this game, sorry.

MY FLAREON FRIEND IS TOWN THIS GAME.

PRAISE.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I should get an award for always being the biggest wagon d1 as town. normally I can draw out some scums by getting a huge wagon. the problem is that the argument somewhat makes sense. like I could see myself agreeing with that argument. I think anyone that's played with me would know I am like this as town which is +townpoints for Taylor. I would argue its - town points for murder since he has played a town game with me before and he has meta dived my scum games before. Besides the people that I have played with's reads on me atm, I can't be certain of the rest. I'm not excited about dying day 1 but I have a feeling I will be able to bring at least one scum down with me.
Ftr, I think Taylor is town for realizing that this isnt AI
I think Murder could be scum bc he has played with me before and I expect him to know its not AI
I think Pooky is actually probably town bc he truly thought he found something and I absolutely believe he believes in it
I am null on Lexi though I am a little salty you would use a discord server and my being excited to be in a game hectic modded against me this way. I could see it as opportunistic scum tho I'm not certain of it.
All the other votes were just plain vote tags or I missed them and I'm not entirely sure what to make of them yet.

Man this post is bad. Like any doubt I had when I began to apply this pressure has evaporated.

Like anyone who is thinking of joining this wagon and going "gee I dunno guys, that reason why the wagon started was a little weak"

Read this post and just assess the calculated nature of what has been done here. Noraa isn't responding on actual reads or attempting to sort what has happened to her.

She's attempting to brush it aside and create a group of allies to prevent her from dying.

Calling MurderCat scum here is the height of the problem, given Murdercat was the complete towniest entry to the wagon given how bad post 104 was from Noraa.

This is scum flailing to get out from under a wagon, please kill them.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

we still need 3 more to win tho

They're hiding.

Afraid of Bird and Bear and Cat.

OH MY GOD THEY'RE BRITISH.

THEY'RE AFRAID OF THE BBC.

IT'S DESTINY.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

honestly I'm canadian and I'm afraid of the BBC so maybe not just the british but

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Why hasn’t LLD been vigged yet.
I feel like if I were scum I would have sent that message in yesterday.

LMFAOOOOOOOO

[Lady Lambdadelta]

COME ON AND KILL ME EURO SCUM

I'M A TRUE PATRIOT

[Lady Lambdadelta]

sounds like cowardly euros :3

this game really is DEFCON huehuehue

[Lady Lambdadelta]

you can see the regret on Bell's face

I know right?

Bell is on the kill list 100 percent.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

THEY'RE AFRAID OF THE BBC.

I'm sorry... I totally misread this, but you should have seen my face the first time my eyes crossed it.

Oh my god you dirty dirty panda.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Did I say i’m Glad i’m Not scum buddies with Norra yet.

BUS THEM THEN

SMILE

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Taylor - town for realizing that this isn't AI due to previous experience playing with me
Murder - null bc he didn't realize it wasn't AI even tho he has played with me before but the paranoia towards shelly is very town bc when playing with shelly, it is nerve-racking trying to determine if you're being absolutely fooled or if you are judging too much and she's actually town. I feel this paranoia all the way after one scum game with her where she told me about all her evil plans in the scum pt and after one town game where I was fooled by her big time. Something that town pings + something that scum pings cancel out and so I am null but prolly town lean still.
Pooky - town because I believe he believes in his SR on me and scum wouldn't bc scum knows who their scum buddies are.
Lexi - null. I still dislike the discord argument. Lexi's been more eager to push me than Pooky has which tbh is a bit strange considering normally the one that starts it is the biggest on pushing it :/
Isis - town because the tone is towny and I relate to some of those posts in that I would say something similar in her position
Bell - townie confusion. could be faked but I'm willing to believe it is real for now
Shelly - scum for misrepping people and also for throwing shade at pooky yet never voting pooky.
Vaultdweller - scum. can't quite put my finger on what's wrong here but I'm def getting scum pings.
Hopkirk - null but lean scum. dislike the jumping on all biggest wagons for no reason.

ahahahahah

[Lady Lambdadelta]

My eyes...

Toog.

Give it to me. I'm an old person in Mafia terms, but my sniffer still works.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

noraa whats the purpose of bringing up my meta? no one seems to be scumreading me atm, so why go out of your way to defend me?

This is a VERY GOOD QUESTION.

Follow this line of reasoning to the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

This is a VERY GOOD QUESTION.

Follow this line of reasoning to the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

you sure like tunneling. anyone know if this happens to be AI?

I was wondering how long it would take you to flip your "null, hmmm I dunno if LLD, is she scum? hmmmmmmmm" into trying to oppose me like this.

And describing putting pressure on you and convincing people to vote someone I think is scum as scum as "tunneling" is hilarious.

I have other people I have assigned town reads. You're my strongest scum read. Why wouldn't I push you hard to show other people how scummy you are?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

im super duper concerned at the number of people who have decided to push noraa as scum this early, and dont trust them either.

Do you consider Noraa's responses to these questions and pressure to be town?

Ignore your paranoia for a moment. There's just no way that everyone on this push is scum, realistically, so assume at least some of us are town, and observe Noraa from that perspective.

Do you think Noraa is responding as a townie would? If so, why?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

she literally didn't even acknowledge that it was a misrep of what happened in the server.

It's not really a misrep, but the bigger point is that what happened in the server and the whole "town tell fake" thing was more of a leading off point to reaction test you than it was the crux of my argument.

My argument is that you have and continue to react poorly to my pushes and you should die for it.

I don't need meta to know you're scum. People play within a reasonable range of "same" that this is scummy enough behaviour that most of the time you will infact be scum.

This need for me to have "meta" or engage in your flailing arguments is... well, scummy on your part, if I'm being honest.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

im super duper concerned at the number of people who have decided to push noraa as scum this early, and dont trust them either.

Do you consider Noraa's responses to these questions and pressure to be town?

Ignore your paranoia for a moment. There's just no way that everyone on this push is scum, realistically, so assume at least some of us are town, and observe Noraa from that perspective.

Do you think Noraa is responding as a townie would? If so, why?

im gonna say that this push is counterproductive to sorting noraa, who will be defensive and respond very similarly as both alignments. and people are wayyy too confident in pushing noraa. it feels like scum are orchestrating, but it also kinda feels like scum are orchestrating a planned bus.

My thing is, everyone gets defensive when they are the leading wagon.

Town respond differently to that pressure than scum do. I personally think Noraa's flailing response that has jumped around from target to target and different methods to try and save herself is scum panic, and not town survivalism.

Do you feel differently? I can explain some of why if you need, but I do kind of want to see who picks up on where I am seeing to generate some townreads too.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

im gonna say that this push is counterproductive to sorting noraa, who will be defensive and respond very similarly as both alignments.

This is so flaily though for so early in the game, I don't think town Noraa reacts so strongly and LAMISTs so much

I am very late to the murdercat town party.
But I am here now.

God I'm gonna have a hard time sorting you this game.

Sometimes you say terrible things.

Othertimes you come out and do townie shit, like this.

Good thing I'll probably be dead by the time I need to sort your shit, lol.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

yeah im pretty sure ive seen town noraa react exactly this way. i dont townread noraa, but i dont think this is helpful in sorting noraa and i think itll be reasonably easy to sort noraa later.

I have a limited lifespan in this game. There's no way scum let me live very long. If scum gets cursed, they are gonna curse or vig me or something.

So let's assume I don't trust town to deal with Noraa and want to kill and parse them now. I do not believe Noraa is sufficiently impossible to read from this pressure.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I didn't even call you scum and you get this defensive. Your type of defensive seems to be just throwing lots of shade at me to make you look better than me.

I... don't think that word means what you think it means, given I'm pressuring and attacking you.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I didn't even call you scum and you get this defensive. Your type of defensive seems to be just throwing lots of shade at me to make you look better than me.

Also, for anyone who likes to use the "buzzwords to deflect pressure" tell, here is a good example of that.

Like this post alone should be enough to get you killed, tbh. Given that the order of events is

1) LLD pushes Noraa
2) Noraa calls LLD Null.
3) LLD continues to push Noraa for bad reactions
4) Noraa tries to half switch on LLD, calling her "Tunnelling"
5) LLD calls out Noraa's continued posting as bad, answers questions asked
6) Noraa calls LLD's answering her questions "defensive".

Like...

Come on.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I was wondering how long it would take you to flip your "null, hmmm I dunno if LLD, is she scum? hmmmmmmmm" into trying to oppose me like this.

This was the sentence I was referring to when I said you were being defensive. Perhaps defensive isnt the right word. I think you are actively discrediting what I say.

Okay, time to bury you. Here is where you made your mistake, calling this "discrediting". (Another buzzword, btw.)

One second.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

yeah im pretty sure ive seen town noraa react exactly this way. i dont townread noraa, but i dont think this is helpful in sorting noraa and i think itll be reasonably easy to sort noraa later.

I have a limited lifespan in this game. There's no way scum let me live very long. If scum gets cursed, they are gonna curse or vig me or something.

So let's assume I don't trust town to deal with Noraa and want to kill and parse them now. I do not believe Noraa is sufficiently impossible to read from this pressure.

dont like this post at all

I don't really care if you like it or not. It's literally the truth. This is a vengeful game. I'm a big personality. I'm gonna get cursed or shot at some point.

What EXACTLY is your problem with it? I want you to be EXPLICIT.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i think itll be reasonably easy to sort noraa later.

I am curious what you will look for later that you aren't seeing now in these posts. Are you talking like associations and stuff? Because honestly, there are going to be way harder slots to sort with the plist.

ok lets sort those slots and loop back to noraa later on in the day. people are wayyyy too confident for page 10. this is not a good push

.

Hmmm

What slots are you talking about, exactly?

Be SPECIFIC.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Okay, time to bury you. Here is where you made your mistake, calling this "discrediting". (Another buzzword, btw.)

One second.

you keep insisting all this stuff is scum indicative. for noraa its just noraa indicative. calm down

Why are you defending Noraa?

I'll ask you again. You were really null on her, and thought she might even be scum.

Do you think Noraa's behaviour is town? Your "this is how Noraa plays" stuff just won't fly.

I want a commitment.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I should get an award for always being the biggest wagon d1 as town. normally I can draw out some scums by getting a huge wagon. the problem is that the argument somewhat makes sense. like I could see myself agreeing with that argument. I think anyone that's played with me would know I am like this as town which is +townpoints for Taylor. I would argue its - town points for murder since he has played a town game with me before and he has meta dived my scum games before. Besides the people that I have played with's reads on me atm, I can't be certain of the rest. I'm not excited about dying day 1 but I have a feeling I will be able to bring at least one scum down with me.
Ftr, I think Taylor is town for realizing that this isnt AI
I think Murder could be scum bc he has played with me before and I expect him to know its not AI
I think Pooky is actually probably town bc he truly thought he found something and I absolutely believe he believes in it

I am null on Lexi though I am a little salty you would use a discord server and my being excited to be in a game hectic modded against me this way. I could see it as opportunistic scum tho I'm not certain of it.

All the other votes were just plain vote tags or I missed them and I'm not entirely sure what to make of them yet.

Taylor - town for realizing that this isn't AI due to previous experience playing with me
Murder - null bc he didn't realize it wasn't AI even tho he has played with me before but the paranoia towards shelly is very town bc when playing with shelly, it is nerve-racking trying to determine if you're being absolutely fooled or if you are judging too much and she's actually town. I feel this paranoia all the way after one scum game with her where she told me about all her evil plans in the scum pt and after one town game where I was fooled by her big time. Something that town pings + something that scum pings cancel out and so I am null but prolly town lean still.
Pooky - town because I believe he believes in his SR on me and scum wouldn't bc scum knows who their scum buddies are.

Lexi - null. I still dislike the discord argument. Lexi's been more eager to push me than Pooky has which tbh is a bit strange considering normally the one that starts it is the biggest on pushing it :/

Isis - town because the tone is towny and I relate to some of those posts in that I would say something similar in her position
Bell - townie confusion. could be faked but I'm willing to believe it is real for now
Shelly - scum for misrepping people and also for throwing shade at pooky yet never voting pooky.
Vaultdweller - scum. can't quite put my finger on what's wrong here but I'm def getting scum pings.
Hopkirk - null but lean scum. dislike the jumping on all biggest wagons for no reason.

This is a VERY GOOD QUESTION.

Follow this line of reasoning to the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

you sure like tunneling. anyone know if this happens to be AI?

So, here we go.

Evidence of Noraa's hemming and hawing on me.

Calling me Null but constantly looking for a way to scumread me that can be deemed as valid, because she's afraid to fabricate a reason and have it be torn down, in my opinion.

But even if you think that assessment of her behaviour is wrong, her behaviour is clear as day.

Here is the evidence.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

ok lets sort those slots and loop back to noraa later on in the day. people are wayyyy too confident for page 10. this is not a good push.

I mean, I am using the wagon to sort others as well. I think it will be very useful for that.

the slots murdercat thinks will be harder to sort.

Boy the difference a green role pm makes, huh.

Murdercat has the right of it. This is a polarizing moment, and forcing people to take a side and read Noraa and read me and read people who have commented on this like you, Taylor, will generate connections and reads for when 3 people die.

Why are you trying to cut that short?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

So, here we go.

Evidence of Noraa's hemming and hawing on me.

Calling me Null but constantly looking for a way to scumread me that can be deemed as valid, because she's afraid to fabricate a reason and have it be torn down, in my opinion.

But even if you think that assessment of her behaviour is wrong, her behaviour is clear as day.

Here is the evidence.

this stuff is NOT AI for noraa.

I'm not interested in Meta as a defense. It's AI for people, IN GENERAL. She's not special or an exception.

Explain HOW you believe it's not AI. You've been doing this soft Meta defense and not giving anything.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm gonna get cursed or shot at some point.

last thing. Assuming that you are town, no scums are gonna keep u cuz ur fucking pushing in the wrong direction. you deny tunneling but you are literally the person pushing me the most. And you are only pushing me. I absolutely think it is tunneling. Honestly, if all you are gonna do is push LHF, why wouldn't scum keep you around?

So because I'm pushing you the most it's tunneling?

Isn't that just kind of telling on yourself that you don't really have a ground to call this tunnelling, and this is just how you defend yourself from a hard push, lol?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Anyway, I'm gonna peace out before this thread gets clogged by back and forth too much.

which makes it hard to read and people will skim and skip it.

There's lots of evidence here Noraa is scum. People should read it and make their judgements.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

are you really trying to use "this wouldn't make sense for me to do as scum" as a defense considering your scum-meta is basically suicidal?

POOKY GOT MY BACK

THE TITLE PROPHECY IS COME TRUE

HAHAHA

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm gonna go hunt some ghosts in videogames now. I just am having too much fun.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

its a trolling semi-defense of Noraa

I think it was just a joke

It can be both, right?

Like you shouldn't read into its content more than it being a joke, but its INTENT right, at that time?

mixed with Taylor's defense of Noraa being all meta here, making it kind of unarguable. Plus them being like "just sort them later, just sort them later".

It could definitely be intended as a soft defense to make Noraa's thing look less suspect since more people meme'd about it right?

Here's the problem in a game like this with "sorting someone later" right?

you can't think of this like a 15-5. Because every scum death minus the last one, also equals a town death.

Which means if we kill 4 scum, we're down 4 people, plus a kill is 5 guaranteed deaths.

Which means best case scenario we need to knock 5 townies off our townie list and start from there. Only way this doesn't happen is if it's best case scenario of execute a scum, scum passes to a townie, townie kills a scum.

however since the scum know who each townie are likely to murder, they will generally pass to people who won't murder them.

So usually, we're getting 2 town deaths for a scum death.

So consider it a 10-5 nightless vanilla with extra walking corpses.

if we go down a 3 town death hole and end up 7-5, we're in a _bad_ state cause the ration doesn't like to change.

Like... 12-5, even if we get 4 scum in a row, assumign 2 town to 1 scum looks like...

10-4
8-3
6-2
4-1
3-1 (from the kill shot)

So that's like a... REASONABLE outcome for this game, right? If things play on average. that puts us in an okay position because the next scroll just needs to include the scum on it.

But imagine we get even ONE MORE MISS.

and it's suddenly 9-5
7-4
6-3
4-2
2-1
1-1 from shot

We're done. We would need a townie miracle recovery where we kill 2 scum in one cycle of curses to win.

That's why putting people "off until later" is bad. Because we need to find and kill scum to get evidence as best as possible and we can't afford to triple miss.

Which is why I'm suspicious of anyone who is halting wagon progress that is developing information.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like everyone should read that above post to understand how precarious our position in this game is and why we need to be _very_ careful.

We get 1 bad outcome, maybe 2 if we're lucky and get a double scum death in a 3 death pile.

Which is why delaying and hemming and hawwing and trying to survive isn't optimal here.

Make your peace with your reads, generate strong ones, expect to die, and kill as many scum as you can while leaving your last will and testament.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

however since the scum know who each townie are likely to murder, they will generally pass to people who won't murder them.

This is actually such an obvious thing that I didn't think about at all

Trust me, I'm not just an angry bird yelling at clouds and pushing scum.

I have a brain in here too, and I've been calculating and considering how we act and how scum win this game from the minute I got my green pm.

And i've been watchign for people who want to control the vigs and know where they will land.

Because it's scum sided for sure.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Hey Noraa please tell me
All of your thoughts on LLD

I think pooky's point is valid and understandable considering I would likely agree if I weren't in my own position rn in which case I disagree that was a forced townslip because I had not read the OPs. That aside, LLD jumped on my wagon right off the bat which didn't surprise me bc I definitely understand that from a town pov, that prolly read bad and not willing to give me the benefit of the doubt is understandable. The problem is that LLD used an argument to back Pooky's case up that was misleading as I was not as she implied, super hyped up and ready to play since long ago. I was actually one of the last few people to /in so her saying that I was so hyped up that it's impossible I didn't read the OPs is just unreasonable not to mention using an argument like that against me is just mean considering its literally not even on ms.

I pointed this out immediately and she never responded until I poked at her again later.

she is overly confident and half of her reasons are just like "this post is bad"

Also can we point out that I am a noob compared to the majority of the people here?

I do not understand why a lot of my posts are labelled as bad bc I am absolutely solving. My reads are weak and shit but really they are always going to "look scummy" if you first assume that I am scum and then look at my posts.

I see a lot of buddying in my wagon and tbh if I flip today, it'll be really interesting to see them immediately start doubting each other for pushing me this hard. I think a lot of people this game are over their heads and way too confident. I generally associate confidence with time and experience but regardless, a day 1, 10 pages in, lock scum!Noraa is just ridiculous especially from my pov.

You don't get to use this excuse after you won that other scumgame against very competent players.

The fact you're using it now is... hmm

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Did you specify ONLY modding
And mention not another thing

yeah. honestly I could go find that and copy paste what I said if you want

wait actually its against game rules. Let me run that by mod and if Hectic allows it, I can provide evidence that I did not in fact say anything like what LLD claims I did.

Noraa not taking credit for a win looks bad to me

I will not take credit for a game that could've gone ten times better if they had just bussed me day 2. I joke that I like to take credit and stuff like that but I don't ever actually take credit for what I believe I don't deserve credit for.

I don't get what you're getting at here?

The point was you were excited for the game and the mod, and I expected you to have read the game. not that you LITERALLY SAID YOU DID IT.

lmfao

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Fidget is town, let's go.

And yeah, I've played with MurderCat once or twice before. They feel town here. Let's be honest, nothing I say should be taken with 100 percent, but we should be willing to operate on principles of "this is definitely town" for the first few cycles at least.

Like I'm pretty comfortable in Fidget, Pooky, and MurderCat as town. There's a few others I also think are town.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Fidget is town, let's go.

And yeah, I've played with MurderCat once or twice before. They feel town here. Let's be honest, nothing I say should be taken with 100 percent, but we should be willing to operate on principles of "this is definitely town" for the first few cycles at least.

Like I'm pretty comfortable in Fidget, Pooky, and MurderCat as town. There's a few others I also think are town.

you think everyone that agrees with the Noraa wagon is town. we already gathered that don't worry.

This feels like a gross simplification. I actually think Fidget is town because of their hesitance and acquiescence to some of the counter arguments.

The fact that they objectively found some merit in the defenses put up makes me think they genuinely considered them, and the fact they landed on the side of "I see the problems with Noraa" despite this, makes me think they understand the gamestate and are mindmelding a bit with me.

It's not buddying if the dude literally says "actually I think Taylor Swift's arguments have validity" which is not something I believe and does detract from my pressure on Taylor. We hold different opinions, and that's kind of why they're town.

The intent, action and manner in which they approached all of this REEKS town.

But you want to simplify it to what you've said above? Seems thin.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I am curious what would qualify as a good wagon to Tayl0r rn. Or if there are no good wagons, then what is stopping Noraa from being the best one out of currently available options?

Also, a question to the people discussing the mech: Did you decide it was worthwhile enough to give the final scroll pass to the scummiest player? Or should we not bother?

I understand that, in a way, we block a night kill if the final bounce is to scum. But that will require us dictating to the second chosen player who to pick, which is unfortunate. We also might learn something from who scum passes the scroll to anyway. That is why I am not sure what our best option is.

There are the following outcomes

Vote to Kill Town-> Pass to Town->Pass to Town=0
Vote to kill Town->Pass to Town->Pass to Scum=1
Vote to kill Town->Pass to Scum->Pass to Town=1
Vote to kill Scum->Pass to Town->Pass to Town=1
Vote to kill Scum->Pass to Town->Pass to Scum=2

Those are all the outcomes. You need to think of it like this. Because scum will always pass to town, if we vote to kill a townie, we basically get 2 vig shots to make it up and avoid the 0 result. A result of 1 is a "fine result" and what we want to aim for. If we score 1 on all our rounds, we will win the game.

So essentially, if we get a townie, we should consider our two shots as independent because remember scum can lie about if they were scum when they get cursed.

So, in essence, the first pass from the person we vote to the next player we should always assume they are a townie. 4/5 times they are, and in the only time they are NOT, we're always in the "Score 1" world which is just fine by us.

So basically, we can work and do plans and stuff with the middle person as if they were a confirmed townie. The voted for person... less so. If they're scum, they'll pass to a townie and there's just no work we can do with them.

If they're a townie, they will just do as they want given we voted them out.

So in my mind, you just want to let the person we voted do what they want, and then let the middle person be treated as a confirmed townie, ask questions and work together to help them make a good informed choice but not control them.

And if we focus on it like that, we up our odds to hit the 2 score world, and lower our odds to hit the 0 score world.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I am curious what would qualify as a good wagon to Tayl0r rn. Or if there are no good wagons, then what is stopping Noraa from being the best one out of currently available options?

Also, a question to the people discussing the mech: Did you decide it was worthwhile enough to give the final scroll pass to the scummiest player? Or should we not bother?

I understand that, in a way, we block a night kill if the final bounce is to scum. But that will require us dictating to the second chosen player who to pick, which is unfortunate. We also might learn something from who scum passes the scroll to anyway. That is why I am not sure what our best option is.

There are the following outcomes

Vote to Kill Town-> Pass to Town->Pass to Town=0
Vote to kill Town->Pass to Town->Pass to Scum=1
Vote to kill Town->Pass to Scum->Pass to Town=1
Vote to kill Scum->Pass to Town->Pass to Town=1
Vote to kill Scum->Pass to Town->Pass to Scum=2

Those are all the outcomes. You need to think of it like this. Because scum will always pass to town, if we vote to kill a townie, we basically get 2 vig shots to make it up and avoid the 0 result. A result of 1 is a "fine result" and what we want to aim for. If we score 1 on all our rounds, we will win the game.

So essentially, if we get a townie, we should consider our two shots as independent because remember scum can lie about if they were scum when they get cursed.

So, in essence, the first pass from the person we vote to the next player we should always assume they are a townie. 4/5 times they are, and in the only time they are NOT, we're always in the "Score 1" world which is just fine by us.

So basically, we can work and do plans and stuff with the middle person as if they were a confirmed townie. The voted for person... less so. If they're scum, they'll pass to a townie and there's just no work we can do with them.

If they're a townie, they will just do as they want given we voted them out.

So in my mind, you just want to let the person we voted do what they want, and then let the middle person be treated as a confirmed townie, ask questions and work together to help them make a good informed choice but not control them.

And if we focus on it like that, we up our odds to hit the 2 score world, and lower our odds to hit the 0 score world.

Everyone needs to read and agree to this. This is a breakthrough. In ALL RELEVANT WORLDS the 2nd cursed player who has their final choice is AN EFFECTIVE CONFIRMED TOWNIE.

Because if they're scum there's just no point. They can troll and fuck around but with no power roles, they're just wasting time.

So literally the 2nd person is always confirmed town and we should treat them as such and work with them to get the best outcomes.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Also another thing is if we hit S with the scroll to begin with - the S can't just blatantly take out the most obv-town townie on our side like they could with a NK because it gives us valuable info for the 3rd pass. If the scum pretend like they are actually following a thought process and nail a player that could plausibly be scum for 2nd pass - it would still be positive EV for us.

Agree. If they kill the most obvious townie, even with the rest of the town being like "no fuck that" we can be ASSURED they are scum.

Like if we kill Noraa, and noraa turns around and kills a really obvious town out of "spite" we can write them off as "scum" and just deal with it.

That's huge information. Lets us do associatives.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Another thing I’m rather concerned about is bussing scum

With the speed the wagon is going I’m pretty sure at least 2 in those 9 names

Why is this a concern pre-flip again?

Like, this is the kind of commentary that is better done once all associatives are clearer, or at least once we reach the "second person on the scroll is confirmed town" phase and we can talk a bit in hypotheticals.

right now it's a bit premature

no one likes to be premature

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Why hasn’t LLD been vigged yet.
I feel like if I were scum I would have sent that message in yesterday.

Look I'm eternally grateful for every breath I draw in this game, lmfao

[Lady Lambdadelta]

its a concern because im always paranoid
covering all bases is better

I get that but it's a timing issue. At this moment it's less useful a discussion than say, post a Noraa death once all the votes are on their uh... final resting places.

the less you fuck with wagonomics while the wagons happen the better reading them for intent gets

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Lld is town. A blind person can see that. And if theybcouldn’t See it a dead person would hear it.

yeah. but you pointed they were anti in your opinion, so i was wondering why you decided to say your TR's approach is weird

hold on

you think it's weird to townread someone and think they're handling a situation wrong?

Cause the comment they made was "hmm maybe RVS is made a bit weird by how aggro LLD is being" not "LLD is scummy for this"

So why are you flipping it like this?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Regarding Noraa my heart just dropped.

while not voting noraa

which is a very scummy move to look good for the cameras while trying to slow the wagon

If you say so scum shelly.

Hush now, dear.

Let me handle this for a moment.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

On the other hand I agree somewhat with

tailor that the LLD approach might make things more confusing than whatever normal rvs looks like.

its giving us info

bell what is your read on noraa and LLD
do you think this means LLD is being antitown

So ignore that I think Bells is loco and this is how RVS used to be when I played, right.

Their comment here is hard to misconstrue as an anti-lld sentiment. It's a "Taylor was saying we need more wagons and I wonder if maybe they're right".

Bells is WRONG here, but not for the reason you're implying.

so how did you come to this conclusion?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

hold on

you think it's weird to townread someone and think they're handling a situation wrong?

Cause the comment they made was "hmm maybe RVS is made a bit weird by how aggro LLD is being" not "LLD is scummy for this"

So why are you flipping it like this?

yeah i think its weird

you either townread someone or you dont.

And he town reads me.

He's been pretty clearly townreading me in all his posts since my entrance.

this is very clear in the way he posts and how he acts.

No the biggest question is how you got to "not townreading LLD" from "questioning whether LLD's methods are correct, or if another method should be employed."

It's QUITE a big gap, and not as easy a mistake to make as you are making it out to seem, so I wanna know how you got there.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Question: What is the value of Bell continuing that method right now with 9 votes on Noraa and a clear indication I am a rabid dog with my teeth sunk into her and I have no intention of letting her live past today?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Their comment here is hard to misconstrue as an anti-lld sentiment. It's a "Taylor was saying we need more wagons and I wonder if maybe they're right".

Bells is WRONG here, but not for the reason you're implying.

so how did you come to this conclusion?

bell: theres a possibility that LLD is playing aggro and taylor is right
also bell: LLD is town

im not saying bell is SR on you
im saying bell is doubting your methods while townreading you

No. You're saying he's throwing suspicion on Noraa in order to look good, but he's not committing the vote because he's holding out for the wagon not going through. Is that what you're saying?

YES

Question: What is the value of Bell continuing that method right now with 9 votes on Noraa and a clear indication I am a rabid dog with my teeth sunk into her and I have no intention of letting her live past today?

Like, this question as a response to these two posts.

Let's say i understand your reasoning and position, now I'm questioning its validity. What is the motivation for Bell to behave in this manner?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

me who didnt read half of the thread: bell read on LLD
bell: LLD is town but I disagree with their approaches
me: do you think LLD is being anti
bell: you're scum shelly

where did i ever say bell was SR on LLD

"LLD is being anti-town" is akin to asking someone if you think someone is behaving in a scummy manner.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Question: What is the value of Bell continuing that method right now with 9 votes on Noraa and a clear indication I am a rabid dog with my teeth sunk into her and I have no intention of letting her live past today?

because noraa is a really inconsistent town player and ive seen town noraa playing reeeeally scummy

That's... not an answer to the question.

The question is what does Bell have to gain from soft protecting her when she's definitely going to die today anyway.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

The question is what does Bell have to gain from soft protecting her when she's definitely going to die today anyway.

Bell was soft protecting earlier when the wagon wasn't as fully blown as before.
They havent updated their read there.

Hmmm.

So why continue to do it instead of evolving their position to match a better result for them once it became clear which way the wind was blowing?

Or do you think Bell doesn't have the chops to know that the position they are taking, if that is their intent to soft defend, is untenable and is likely to lead to them dying?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Skipped the last page. I hit LLD's explanation of the perfect town play, and -- perfection. That was solid. I had to stop right there. LLD is basically confirmed town to me, I don't see a hole in that reasoning -- either the second person in the chain is scum (and we hit our 1-mark anyway so who gives a shit) or they aren't (and we get to work with them.) Yes I'm just restating the post I don't care it was that good.

In the first 13 pages I read, I came to the conclusion that Noraa is town but doomed and Tayl0r and LLD are town. LLD is, as far as I'm concerned, locktown until and unless I see undeniable, game-long associatives to the contrary. (FWIW, I see no associatives with any slot at all here unless that was the bravest and dumbest early game bus you ever did see on the back of probably the easiest player to explain as a mis-elim waiting to happen in history, so I'm going to go out on a limb and stretch real hard while saying that from my POV LLD is conftown and leave it at that.)

Tayl0r is more wavery, but this is identical to past Tayl0r play I've seen first-hand, so I'm going to stick with it. Tayl0r is a good player, but three things I've learned: her posts look iffy, her reasoning is complete garbo and her reads are pretty wonky (not unspeakably bad, just.... yeah). I'm going to say I don't think it's possible to use Tayl0r sucking at explaining herself as a scumtell. I'm sure plenty will disagree, but I think this is solid based on past experience.

If I was someone else or if it was someone else, I might try to defend Noraa's slot. But I don't think I can: the arguments have been put forward and the stage is set, Noraa's going down, I see no hope for her. Always possible to see a last minute wagon swap, but Noraa's play is poo and dirt. Doomed. Sorry bud.

Since there's no power roles unless I missed some whopping big habanero in some hidden fine print somewhere, my reads are going to be more confident than usual when I'm whiffing a scum scent. (Past performance indicates I almost always mixup scum and PRs, far less so VTs and scum.)

So then! Since I'll be more confident, how about those scumreads?...

Shelly and I have tangled in the past and I never win that scum matchup. She's elusive and I trust myself to read her play approximately 0%. Her town play is nigh indistinguishable from her scum play unless there's a binary choice to be made. I agree with uh, someone not sure who who said that knocking her out early is a good idea. She's a dangerous player to have around as scum, and while her intuition is good for town (I highly trust a conftown shelly's judgement), I get the feeling from past banter in this thread that this is going to be the sort of game where it's easy to just point at someone and watch half the town put on the Big Boots and go a-stomping. Big risk having her around.

But this isn't really a read, per se, now is it? No, it's just "meta suggests this player is scary." That said, it's just the closest I have at the moment. Lots of very light townreads and total nulls for me currently. This back and forth with Bell and shelly, normally the sort of thing I can get a ton of reads out of, is meaningless to me -- largely because Bell's play is not the play I have an easy time reading. Short posts and me disagree with each other, it's like feeding rice to water fowl, it just turns into a mess. Functionally, I have no read on Bell and that makes me nervous enough that I might want to add pressure and see if I can get content my brain can work with. We'll see if I see someone I'd prefer more for that, or maybe if I even find scum. It's happened once before, after all.

Future's boundless, folks, and anything might happen.

You're like... 5 points away from a gold star and a spot in the town bloc.

Answer me this: Why is Noraa town to you? You talk about a lot of different stuff here and granted I'm a fan of a few of the things you say, but you're really sparse on why you view Noraa as town (possibly because you think she's dead no matter what and it's not worth talking about?)

But if you're going to say something liek "I knew Noraa was town the whole time" I'd like to know why you think that NOW as opposed to post-humously, so I get a better sense of your brainwaves here.

So yeah. Why is Noraa town?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Yeah, you're bang on the money with about half of why I didn't explain. Other half is, well, most of it boils down to what Tayl0r said and VERY loose meta. That meta: Scum Noraa is immediately abrasive to my mind even when she's being nice, and I'm getting more of the OOC fluffy friendliness I would usually expect of her as town in this game.

I don't want to harp on points Tayl0r's already presented and everyone's dismissed, that helps nothing and annoys everyone. As for the meta, it's my brain-worms and no one else's that are going to get that ping, and I can't exactly stick everyone inside of my head and let them see what I see. That's a dead end, hopeless defense as well. Nothing I can do for Noraa here. She's doomed.

So gut feeling and meta read.

Yeah okay. I get why you didn't bother wasting the breath in having me tell you that meta is trash and I don't swear by it and blah blah blah.

Still, was worth hearing the answer for the sake of my sanity. You can join the townbloc I'm making. I'm p. sure I like your posting, not that this townbloc is a forever thing anyway. It's more like "these are people I don't really want dead while I'm alive which probably isn't long." bloc

[Lady Lambdadelta]

---

Hectic rubbed his hands together in anticipation. It was his first year anniversary on the job, and he was about to unleash his greatest game yet on the world. He'd triple checked the role PMs 7 times, and was positive he'd got everything right.

He leaned back, relaxed, and waited for everyone to confirm.

His thoughts were interrupted as Isis stormed into his cubicle.

"Isis! I had a feeling I was due for a promotion. I'm guessing you want me to moderate Team Mafia?"

Isis sighed. "You've sent NorweiganboyEE a scum role PM, and he's not even in your game."

"R-really? Sorry about that, I don't, uh, I really don't know how that slipped through the cracks..." Hectic mumbled.

"You've also given half of your players mod permissions. Somebody's plagiarised post 2 with Sans playing the trombone. Fix this mess, Hectic, we don't pay you to be incompetent."

Hectic frowned. Perhaps moderating wasn't as easy as the listmods had advertised it to be.

---

This post is hilarious btw.

Hi friend.

Comments and reads on the goings on in the thread as of so far?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I already said bell is scum a while ago

ftr if 2 more people say willing to kill bell lets pivot together onto that slot

I get nothing but scumvibes

hahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahah

No.

I'll just as soon burn you to the ground for doing this as I will let that happen.

Noraa dies today.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

this is very underwhelming tbh

Please townlock me

Earn it, bitch.

>:)

[Lady Lambdadelta]

PookyTheMagicalBear
MURDERCAT
MUSHSHAGANA
Lady Lambdadelta
Fidget

This is my current "townbloc". These are the people I think are really towny.

That's a 4th of the game already. I don't think it's that hard to find good townreads in this game.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

PookyTheMagicalBear
MURDERCAT
MUSHSHAGANA
Lady Lambdadelta
Fidget

This is my current "townbloc". These are the people I think are really towny.

That's a 4th of the game already. I don't think it's that hard to find good townreads in this game.

im on board with all of that except maybe murdercat. but im not sure if im skeptical of murdercat or im getting games mixed up.

I feel real good about MC this game, but all of this list should be available for re-evaluation later in the game. But this is my current impression.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

PookyTheMagicalBear
MURDERCAT
MUSHSHAGANA
Lady Lambdadelta
Fidget

This is my current "townbloc". These are the people I think are really towny.

That's a 4th of the game already. I don't think it's that hard to find good townreads in this game.

im on board with all of that except maybe murdercat. but im not sure if im skeptical of murdercat or im getting games mixed up.

I feel real good about MC this game, but all of this list should be available for re-evaluation later in the game. But this is my current impression.

oh wait im also not sure why pooky is locktown. but i think mush fidget and lld are probtown here. i think im willing to locktown fidget.

DO NOT QUESTION MY POOKY BEAR.

POOKY GOT MY BACK.

QUESTIONING POOKY IS UNAMERICAN.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

PookyTheMagicalBear
MURDERCAT
MUSHSHAGANA
Lady Lambdadelta
Fidget

This is my current "townbloc". These are the people I think are really towny.

That's a 4th of the game already. I don't think it's that hard to find good townreads in this game.

im on board with all of that except maybe murdercat. but im not sure if im skeptical of murdercat or im getting games mixed up.

I feel real good about MC this game, but all of this list should be available for re-evaluation later in the game. But this is my current impression.

oh wait im also not sure why pooky is locktown. but i think mush fidget and lld are probtown here. i think im willing to locktown fidget.

DO NOT QUESTION MY POOKY BEAR.

POOKY GOT MY BACK.

QUESTIONING POOKY IS UNAMERICAN.

okay but for real i'm canadian and pooky is def. a person strong enough to live long and hide as scum, so you consider him later, but not rn. Pooky is doing the lord's work rn.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

isnt pooky canadian tho?

yeah that's the joke we both are canadian.

I'm a newfie and IDK about Pooky but, lol

[Lady Lambdadelta]

okay but for real i'm canadian and pooky is def. a person strong enough to live long and hide as scum, so you consider him later, but not rn. Pooky is doing the lord's work rn.

its ok if Pooky gets to endgame he will find a way to get modkilled

ahahahahahaha

Nuke Pooky

[Lady Lambdadelta]

ahahahahaha

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Wow, it looks like everyone decided to start playing at the same time. I see noraa is the top and only wagon. Can someone give the the tl;dr why?

They're confirmed scum. Vote them, WillamGallis

[Lady Lambdadelta]

no I mean Shelly is right. If Noraa is scum she's probably handing me the scroll.

Except that would be a mistake, because if Noraa hands me the scroll she confirms herself as a correct scum death and I go for the 2 point play without fear.

And that's bad for her. So many scum!Noraa pretends and hands it to someone town but wrong?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Pooky please vote me I have a scum PT with four other players, Nero Cain, and Hectic

'kay just gonna take the mask of "having fun" off for a second.

This is illegal, just so you know, and grounds for a mod kill.

Cause if you're telling the truth, then it's game throwing and if you're town... it's still game throwing.

it's one thing to ask to be given the vig, it's another to claim scum here.

So let's chill and have a good match.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

LLD, she’s literally a mod.

And Vi once, as the head mod, outed the alt of a currently playing player in a game because they got too pissed off.

It's always worth a reminder.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

its not illegal to claim scum or claim to be in the scum PT. Its only illegal if she claims to be scum with someone else in the game.

I guess.

I'm just not really into it.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm not letting Noraa not die today so uh... no?

Like no. Lol.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

The iso doesn't matter. LLD doesn't want to interact with me whenever she's scum and she passed up an opportunity to interact with me. She's probably scum

Who the fuck are you

[Lady Lambdadelta]

No like seriously who the fuck are you

you're talking like I'm meant to know you lmfao

[Lady Lambdadelta]

LOLOL SHE DOESNT KNOW YOUR POPS!?

NO!?

I mean the avvy is the same and I was thinking to myself earlier today "oh hey doesn't pops use the same one?" but like

why would I fucking put 2 and 2 together

[Lady Lambdadelta]

did I really just have someone try and fucking omega brain kill me when I am playing the best and most obvious town game of my life

because I'm ignoring them and I have no real opinion on their game and have other things to take care of

and I didn't even know they wanted to kill me?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

More importantly the concept that you think I'm bad enough at scum to have a tell like that is fucking

god for someone who is supposed to "know me" you don't know

god I'm honestly tilted

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Hey you ignored me when I said hi. So maybe if you’re Scum she’s onto something

Though you’re playing pretty close to what I saw last time so i don’t see it.

WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I feel like a famous girl at a high class party.

All these people fuckin' coming up like "OH WOW YOU'RE JUST LIKE THE FIRST TIME I MET YOU"

and I'm just like

"bitch who the fuck are you?"

wtf is happening I'm so tilted

[Lady Lambdadelta]

AVENGER

k, got it.

fuckkkkkkkkkkkkk do I need to re-read you now.

Merde Tabernac ajsF
Psdik;lsdfl

i hate you all

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Wasn’t secret post game and they posted after me and acknowledged cephrir’s existence who also posted after.
On the other hand, brain worms, what can you do.

If you think I checked the post game for everyone's IDs, you don't know me at all, lol

[Lady Lambdadelta]

LLD has several scummy posts
but some towny posts too
she's back to eh now

Your inability to read me is tilting me off the face of the earth.

I don't even know what meta bullshit game you are referencing to get this weird "tell" on me that wouldn;'t work even if I WAS SCUM (you moron)

but let me make this fucking really simple for you.

I'm going to die this game you fucking dummy. There's a 0 percent chance I live to endgame.

Fuck's sakes, like. How are you this dense?

Or is it this was a distraction or something?

IDFK

[Lady Lambdadelta]

WELL YOU SHOULD HAVE AT LEAST SAID HI BACK. YOU’RE SCUM REGARDLESS OF YOUTR ROLE PM. WHAT KIND OF CANADIAN EVEN ARE YOU!?

I...

what part of my play as berserker made you think I at all fit the "nice polite unassuming" canadian stereotype.

I'm a fiery bitch.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

LLD has several scummy posts
but some towny posts too
she's back to eh now

Actually what are my scummy posts and why are they scummy.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

LLD, please don't be toxic.

You just claimed scum to try and kill me for exactly no good reason.

that's the toxic thing here. I'm allowed to be a little on tilt.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

LLD cmon dont be so mean :/ that's super unfun.

I'll go calm down or something. I guess.

I feel entitled to be tilted about that. Can I at least get some fucking acceptance that this is an adequate thing to be tilted about

[Lady Lambdadelta]

@LLD do you actually SR isis or are you just frustrated with their play

I haven't said anything about SRing Isis.

I have no real strong read on Isis, especially less now that I apparently know who the fuck they are and need to re-evaluate my whole position on them.

Meta might be trash, but the fact they KNEW ME means they were playing around me differently than I expected which requires a re-read.

and now I need to do that TWICE, since Bell knows me too.

So I have no strong read on Isis. I'm just tilted about someone claiming scum to try and kill me when I'm town.

zzzz

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Okay, time to bury you. Here is where you made your mistake, calling this "discrediting". (Another buzzword, btw.)

One second.

This felt inductive to me.

I have a brain in here too, and I've been calculating and considering how we act and how scum win this game from the minute I got my green pm.

This seemed lamisty to me.

Inductive in what way? I immediately after that went and grabbed actual quote evidence to follow up. It's the exact opposite of inductive.

LAMIST in what way? joking that I'm not usually a mechanical player who actually took some time to tryhard with mechanics in this game

which I then proved a second time when I came up with the best strategy for town in this game?

Like...

These are some extremely weak reads to be calling me scum from. What's my motivation in these posts, intent wise?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

like she's literally saying she thinks you're so amazing at scum and would wreck the town so hard that she decided to try to suicide herself to try to get you so that you couldn't do massive damage and crush the town completely.

Like that's not her insulting you at alll.

It's not that I'm insulted by a player being threatened by me it's that I'm literally already playing so high profile I'm going to die no matter what and someone decided they were gonna claim scum to kill me on day one and undo all the work I did trying to kill a scum!noraa.

I just.

It's frustrating. Isis is playing in a super frustrating way. Their read on me is super frustrating and their behaviour is tiling, compliment or not.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

yea ok but there's no reason to insult her for it. That's just mean =/

She obviously thinks you are very good - otherwise she wouldn't do the whole suicide-gambit.

The real question is more like - was it like for real or just scum-theater?

I don't fuckin' know Pooky.

They need to die for claiming scum at some point no matter what. It's not something you can just do and get away with alive.

I just don't know. Part of me is like "anyone who is willing to do that in a game where you'd basically be trading 1 for 1 with me which people know I am generally willing to do if I think you are scum, especially when I'd get a chance to make it 2 for 1."

Like that's bad play for scum if the gambit is accepted for sure.

The question is like... did they know the gambit would be rejected? Hard to say, given the only way they can back off from their claim is for me to have not recognized them, which they might have been able to key into but thats hard to say for sure?

It's a hard situaiton. My gut leans "probably town, but needs to die the death anyway".

[Lady Lambdadelta]

It seemed stretchy to call discrediting a buzzword. I kind of could have picked a lot of different anti-noraa posts, but they generally felt like looking for additional little reasons to scum read her beyond what's natural where I would expect a townie to harken back to stronger core reasons. I think inductive was perhaps the wrong word.
The second one is LAMISTY because you mention getting

green

role PM, and that being the brainstorming moment. I speculate you thought about the setup a little bit before getting your role PM and a lot more after getting it, but to look town you want to be slightly incorrect and emphasize that resurgence in interest upon joining the town.

I called you nullscum. You don't have to think they're amazing.

If you think I plan things before I join a game you're crazy. Actual crazy.

And it's not really a stretch to call it that because it was a lie on her part. She could have tried to use any other number of words to describe what she meant but discrediting was not one of them. It's a popular mafia buzzword because people see it and respond with "hmm that is a scummy thing to do" and react accordingly.

I don't get your logic on either of these but since apparently you were desperate for a townread from me and didn't get it and now you're.... I don't fucking know.

Doing this.

could you at least find somehting real to scum read me for so I can pretend that feeling like you might be town has some merit to it?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

yea ok but there's no reason to insult her for it. That's just mean =/

She obviously thinks you are very good - otherwise she wouldn't do the whole suicide-gambit.

The real question is more like - was it like for real or just scum-theater?

I don't fuckin' know Pooky.

They need to die for claiming scum at some point no matter what. It's not something you can just do and get away with alive.

I just don't know. Part of me is like "anyone who is willing to do that in a game where you'd basically be trading 1 for 1 with me which people know I am generally willing to do if I think you are scum, especially when I'd get a chance to make it 2 for 1."

Like that's bad play for scum if the gambit is accepted for sure.

The question is like... did they know the gambit would be rejected? Hard to say, given the only way they can back off from their claim is for me to have not recognized them, which they might have been able to key into but thats hard to say for sure?

It's a hard situaiton. My gut leans "probably town, but needs to die the death anyway".

I think I get mislimmed later in the game in this lobby most of the time, so it's not really a 1 for 1, it would actually just be a 0 for 1. Or maybe a 0.25 for one.

???

You're...what the fuck are you saying.

I'm speaking from a perspective where you are scum to try and decide if scum you would do this action

and you're like "well actually if LLD was scum I'm useless as town so it's more like 0 for 1".

Are you even reading my posts or just skimming and coming up with things to say that you think sound right

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i dont think scumIsis even thinks up this gambit much less tries it but I've never played with ScumIsis before so *shrug*

This is like, probably true.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

But Isis needs to die for it later on regardless.

So they can just die like, IDK, round 2 or 3

[Lady Lambdadelta]

No probably too early.

4 or 5?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

How many rounds of elims are we gonna have? 3x5 is 15+1 is 16 which is the 2nd last round?

yeah okay that sounds right

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Why do you want to kill town?

Because 1) I'll be dead by that point 2) I find what you've done here to be insufferable and 3) you might actually be scum based on this gambit, I'm just having a hard time seeing it, so I'm just marking you for death later so you can do work now without people calling for your head all the time.

Consider it like a "as long as LLD is alive I live" pass, and when I die you're on the chopping block lol

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i dont think this game goes to round 4

really?

You think we're gonna stomp them that bad?

Cause we only win in round 3 if we kill 2 scum twice and then kill the last scum, lol

[Lady Lambdadelta]

the motivation part is the part that is hard to come up with - not the self-sacrifice part

Yeah you gotta ask yourself "is it worth scum isis sacrificing themselves to kill me and giving me a vig shot on my way out?"

answer is a clear NO.

So then you gotta ask "is it worth Isis riskign their life in that way to gambit in the hopes that they are denied and don't die and we ignore them?"

and it IS worth it but the risk might be too high

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I don't wanna talk about the dayvig in too much detail but there is an obvious reason the scum would save it I don't wanna get into.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

We are killing Noraa with our vote today and here is why.

All these plans where we "kill noraa with the third curse so Noraa can't curse someone" are fuckign cowardly. It ruins the BEST and MOST USEFUL TOOL town has.

The 2nd curse confirmed town play.

If we assign a player to die from 3rd curse, not only is it often not gonna happen, but we lose the ability for a confirmed townie to put pressure on people.

Noraa remains the vote today, and all these people derailing it are really suspicious.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Dude, you know I'm gonna die today right?

If we get the vote wrong, and then hand scum the 2nd curse, I die without recourse.

It's not TERRIBLE because yes we killed a scum, but it's the 2nd worst outcome for today minus a miss on all 3.

I want to do Noraa because Noraa has CLAIMED SHE WILL HAND TO ADORABLE.

so if noraa is scum, she will need to do that or if she deviates it will be obvious she is scum, which is a huge advantage to us.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

also wait what

we absolutely want scum to be in the third slot
preferablly with scum also in the first slot
that is how town wins

That is the best scenario and also a fucking pipe dream.

And also not my fucking point?

My point was that CONTROLLING AND CONFIRMING who the 2nd curse kills is BAD FOR TOWN because it removes a fucking BOATLOAD of information.

We control the first curse and try to leash that person onto scummy people for the 2nd curse. So if they break the code, we know they're scum.

then the 2nd person becomes confirmed town and leads the town for the third curse, not the other way around

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Dude, you know I'm gonna die today right?

If we get the vote wrong, and then hand scum the 2nd curse, I die without recourse.

It's not TERRIBLE because yes we killed a scum, but it's the 2nd worst outcome for today minus a miss on all 3.

I want to do Noraa because Noraa has CLAIMED SHE WILL HAND TO ADORABLE.

so if noraa is scum, she will need to do that or if she deviates it will be obvious she is scum, which is a huge advantage to us.

so two things

adorable has more or less stated that they will hand it to noraa so the same argument applies there
and pushing adorable will get more information then continuing to push noraa

I say this with no offense intended but

Adorable is a weak player who doesn't defend themselves well.

I consider the odds Adorable is town a lot higher than the odds Noraa is.

And that means a VERY LIKELY OUTCOME today is

Adorable(T)->Noraa(S)->LLD(T)

and that is REALLY BAD. Like if Noraa is town I'm willing to eat my hat and if she picks a scum who picks me to die, wonderful, it will tell us we were wrong about our assumptions.

Because at least then I controlled my destiny.

But the outcome you are pushing is most likely to have me die in third curse slot, which is my worst possible outcome for today, TBQH.

So no we're not doing your plan when I'm a dead woman walking. We're doing mine.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Not to mention that NORAA ANS ADORABLE ARE PROBABLY NOT SCUM TOGETHER from how Noraa flailed onto them as a counter wagon so

[Lady Lambdadelta]

If Noraa and Adorable are both town, BTW, I trust Adorable's ability to work with me and find someone good to kill using their confirmed town status a lot more than I trust Noraa's ego to be willing to work with me.

So uh.... yeah.

It's the best option to vote Noraa here.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Cause the outcomes are like this:

If Noraa is scum she either:

Hands to me, which confirms she is scum, and gives me confirmed town status for a while to interrogate, make a good last will and then take my shot for the fabled 2 scum cycle.

Doesn't hand to me and hands to a less obvious townie in an attempt to mask she is scum, in which case we ignore her alignment and make no associatives, but guide that townie to the best of our ability anyway.

If Noraa is town:

she will leave her last will and hand likely in a similar way to option 2 above, leaving us with one of 2 outcomes

she hits a scum member which is great because if Noraa was town we were in bad odds to hit scum this cycle to begin with, and scum kills me which I accept as the price for being wrong about Noraa.

Or

She hits town, and we use that townie to try and hit scum, which is easier than working with Noraa.

All these options are literally our best case and better than giving Noraa 2nd option or trying to control her with 3rd option.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Why is the second scrollholder "confirmed town"?

Let me grab the quote for you.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I am curious what would qualify as a good wagon to Tayl0r rn. Or if there are no good wagons, then what is stopping Noraa from being the best one out of currently available options?

Also, a question to the people discussing the mech: Did you decide it was worthwhile enough to give the final scroll pass to the scummiest player? Or should we not bother?

I understand that, in a way, we block a night kill if the final bounce is to scum. But that will require us dictating to the second chosen player who to pick, which is unfortunate. We also might learn something from who scum passes the scroll to anyway. That is why I am not sure what our best option is.

There are the following outcomes

Vote to Kill Town-> Pass to Town->Pass to Town=0
Vote to kill Town->Pass to Town->Pass to Scum=1
Vote to kill Town->Pass to Scum->Pass to Town=1
Vote to kill Scum->Pass to Town->Pass to Town=1
Vote to kill Scum->Pass to Town->Pass to Scum=2

Those are all the outcomes. You need to think of it like this. Because scum will always pass to town, if we vote to kill a townie, we basically get 2 vig shots to make it up and avoid the 0 result. A result of 1 is a "fine result" and what we want to aim for. If we score 1 on all our rounds, we will win the game.

So essentially, if we get a townie, we should consider our two shots as independent because remember scum can lie about if they were scum when they get cursed.

So, in essence, the first pass from the person we vote to the next player we should always assume they are a townie. 4/5 times they are, and in the only time they are NOT, we're always in the "Score 1" world which is just fine by us.

So basically, we can work and do plans and stuff with the middle person as if they were a confirmed townie. The voted for person... less so. If they're scum, they'll pass to a townie and there's just no work we can do with them.

If they're a townie, they will just do as they want given we voted them out.

So in my mind, you just want to let the person we voted do what they want, and then let the middle person be treated as a confirmed townie, ask questions and work together to help them make a good informed choice but not control them.

And if we focus on it like that, we up our odds to hit the 2 score world, and lower our odds to hit the 0 score world.

I am curious what would qualify as a good wagon to Tayl0r rn. Or if there are no good wagons, then what is stopping Noraa from being the best one out of currently available options?

Also, a question to the people discussing the mech: Did you decide it was worthwhile enough to give the final scroll pass to the scummiest player? Or should we not bother?

I understand that, in a way, we block a night kill if the final bounce is to scum. But that will require us dictating to the second chosen player who to pick, which is unfortunate. We also might learn something from who scum passes the scroll to anyway. That is why I am not sure what our best option is.

There are the following outcomes

Vote to Kill Town-> Pass to Town->Pass to Town=0
Vote to kill Town->Pass to Town->Pass to Scum=1
Vote to kill Town->Pass to Scum->Pass to Town=1
Vote to kill Scum->Pass to Town->Pass to Town=1
Vote to kill Scum->Pass to Town->Pass to Scum=2

Those are all the outcomes. You need to think of it like this. Because scum will always pass to town, if we vote to kill a townie, we basically get 2 vig shots to make it up and avoid the 0 result. A result of 1 is a "fine result" and what we want to aim for. If we score 1 on all our rounds, we will win the game.

So essentially, if we get a townie, we should consider our two shots as independent because remember scum can lie about if they were scum when they get cursed.

So, in essence, the first pass from the person we vote to the next player we should always assume they are a townie. 4/5 times they are, and in the only time they are NOT, we're always in the "Score 1" world which is just fine by us.

So basically, we can work and do plans and stuff with the middle person as if they were a confirmed townie. The voted for person... less so. If they're scum, they'll pass to a townie and there's just no work we can do with them.

If they're a townie, they will just do as they want given we voted them out.

So in my mind, you just want to let the person we voted do what they want, and then let the middle person be treated as a confirmed townie, ask questions and work together to help them make a good informed choice but not control them.

And if we focus on it like that, we up our odds to hit the 2 score world, and lower our odds to hit the 0 score world.

Everyone needs to read and agree to this. This is a breakthrough. In ALL RELEVANT WORLDS the 2nd cursed player who has their final choice is AN EFFECTIVE CONFIRMED TOWNIE.

Because if they're scum there's just no point. They can troll and fuck around but with no power roles, they're just wasting time.

So literally the 2nd person is always confirmed town and we should treat them as such and work with them to get the best outcomes.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

This is the reasoning why.

Because in 4/5 worlds, the 2nd person chosen is a townie, and in the 5th world they're scum but they don't need to hide it remotely cause they gain nothing from it once they flip. They just take our best player.

So it's always worth treating them as confirmed town.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You can tone it down from the grave.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

LLD I'm supposed to get excited about the second scroll holder having an 80% chance to be town when all players in this game have a 75% chance to be town?

How are you this fucking bad at understanding basic principles.

In the 20% they are scum it DOESN'T MATTER. We've reached out max and best outcome we can get for that day, and more importantly, they will just kill a townie without any input from us.

SO WE CAN IGNORE THAT WORLD.

It's 100 percent that if they start talking and working with us, they're town in that slot, which is huge info.

Because the first cursed person that isn't exactly true for. Once they're dead, their goal is to convince us they are town and hand the scroll to a townie without looking too bad so we don't know we're in a good spot.

how do you not get this?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I want to do Noraa because Noraa has CLAIMED SHE WILL HAND TO ADORABLE.

incorrect. I said there were two possibilities and I will not be forced to choose one. I will choose for myself. Don't worry stop screaming I think ur a town that's way over your head.

I suggest you tone it down otherwise its gonna look really nasty tomorrow after a green flip on my end

.

It's really cute that you think I give a shit about my towncred.

It's even cuter that you're saying a line like this that no townie in the world would ever say.

Are you upset that for a moment it looked like you might survive today and now it's not looking that way?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I skimmed through the last 20+ pages just looking for votes after looking at the last vote count Hectic posted. Doesn't seem much has changed, so am I free to assume that the last 20+ pages are mostly shit posting?

Shit posting and people trying to swing the vote off Noraa.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

my second p-edit in my previous post was in response to 866 by the way

the nature of how this game works affects how we should play and in this game purposely putting a wagon on people who are not the highest scumread is a valid strategy

Why do we need to wagon someone else when we have a whole other phase to force people to talk to us once Noraa is dead and we have a little info from how she reacts to it.

Like what do you think you will gain from "pretend wagoining" someone else when in reality I'm just gonna kill Noraa at the end anyway.

There's no PRESSURE there. this mythical "other wagon" is a fuckign farse.

I've gained more town and scumreads from how people land on this wagon than anything else we are doing, and if Noraa is town a lot of those will CHANGE sure but it doesn't mean the INFO WASN'T GAINED.

It's pointless to wagon someone else, if we are just gonna kill Noraa and they KNOW THAT.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I think the best way to get LLD to do something different is to just be done with Noraa so we can move on with our lives.

If you let LLD do whatever the fuck she wants, this game is gonna be a bigger mess than my playstyle.

Again, I have a short life expectancy. I literally can't ruin this game if I'm going to die today or tomorrow.

The goal is just to enforce my will while I am alive.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

so ik this is fairly useless when said by me but like ...... theres been basically ... 0 resistance to my wagon :/
Take this as an attempt from me to save my ass but like .... I aint never seen a scum get to E-2 in a large normal in 15 pages

Then the game just stalls for 20 pages but literally almost ALL of the active players are voting me.

This is blatantly untrue, speaking as someone who has quashed all that resistance under my boot.

there are so many people who have tried to come up and say "Noraa is town, Noraa is town" in soft ways and even some using meta and I'm just like...

How can you really make this statement and believe it? Or is this just an attempt to appeal to sympathy from people?

Or maybe if not sympathy, some kind of paranoia?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

LLD I'm supposed to get excited about the second scroll holder having an 80% chance to be town when all players in this game have a 75% chance to be town?

How are you this fucking bad at understanding basic principles.

In the 20% they are scum it DOESN'T MATTER. We've reached out max and best outcome we can get for that day, and more importantly, they will just kill a townie without any input from us.

SO WE CAN IGNORE THAT WORLD.

It's 100 percent that if they start talking and working with us, they're town in that slot, which is huge info.

Because the first cursed person that isn't exactly true for. Once they're dead, their goal is to convince us they are town and hand the scroll to a townie without looking too bad so we don't know we're in a good spot.

how do you not get this?

I follow now.
I disagree with expected first-scroll holder play because I expect first-scroll-scum to just be shameless with the pass a lot of the time. But that's an opiniony part, I follow the logic of it now.

I happen to agree with you about that, but here's the thing: If they vanity shot that's okay we treat them as scum. Like, shooting an obvious townie has consequences, right?

Like doesn't it feel like Noraa is trying to build an "I'm so upset, oops I shot LLD cause I was so mad teehee" defense?

to pretend she isn't scum when she shoots me, despite calling me town who is "in over my head"?

So here's the deal. If she shoots me, she's scum and we operate on that perspective. If she's not scum and did it, she's gamethrowing and would have game thrown no matter what so who cares? lol

[Lady Lambdadelta]

there are so many people who have tried to come up and say "Noraa is town, Noraa is town" in soft ways and even some using meta and I'm just like...

well when you are the one saying we need to wait to solve pooky for META REASONS, you cannot say shit to any of them

Oh it's not a meta reason. Pooky is just playing old school mafia. I don't read him as scum, he makes me laugh, and he's agreeing and mind melding with me.

Doesn't mean he's confirmed town, but it means I don't wanna kill him so eh?

It's not meta, it's practicality. You consider that slot only when I'm dead.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I fucking said I have a problem of being too defensive and I'm self reflecting and trying to make it better and u tell me I should go do it in my grave.

Yes. Because you phrased it like you were going to live.

I want to be clear about something, okay? I'm not bullying you, I'm setting you realistic expectations. It doesn't matter what you do from this point on today, you're going to die.

So the best thing you can do is to stop opining about how you'll do better to look more town, and start trying to actually leave a last will of who you think is scummy and who you will shoot.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

you are so full of yourself that I literally want to OMGUS but I fucking can't cuz scum is never this bold. I hate OMGUSing but sometimes people just tunnel me so much, I get angry and do it. You literally are making me so angry but I'm like 99% sure scum wouldn't be this fucking bold and tunnel me this hard considering they would literally know I would flip green.

You can OMGUS me if you want, the problem is at this point you have already found me as town.

So you're either going to go against your own town read, or you're faking the town read.

Either way, shooting me is a scum claim, and I'm okay with that.

Infact I'm expecting it?

But like, I want to cut off any expectation that if you are scum you can shoot me and pretend you were just "too mad".

Like I am expecting to die, so I'm okay with it.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

and who you will shoot.

absolutely not

i thought you agreed that this was a terrible thing to do

Her discussing it with us before she dies so we can hold her to it =/= us deciding for her.

How do you not get this?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

what info

we only get the info once she flips
which will be at the same time as everyone else who got the scroll

Who she passes to is absolutely critical info that is indicative of the eventual flip.

All you guys are doing is clogging up the thread. The vast majority of casual players are not going to read 30 pages a day. I didn't even read the last 20 pages. People... Will... Get... Bored.

There is literally no point to stalling this out since you are not getting out of the first 3 scroll passes, 100% guaranteed.

MC is completely correct and so is Toog.

We just need to kill Noraa already and stop stagnating the game, please.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Oh and Noraa?

I'm completely full of myself. I have to have confidence in mafia, or what is the point? I can't belabour worlds where I am wrong and hemm and haww and hesitate.

Is there a chance you could be town, Noraa? Yes. There's a chance anyone could be town right now.

Does that chance give me pause and want to let you live? No. Never. You're high enough odds of being scum that I feel like this is a positive outcome. We learn a lot either way.

So I'm begging you to stop struggling and trying to live and start considering who is scum and talking to me about your opinions on the game because you're not going to survive, so it's way more useful.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You are literally tempting me to rage kill you. I ragekilled someone in my last game.
You are literally provoking me with every post. Asserting that you are superior and everyone needs to listen to you. But you did NOTHING but tunnel me. you do NOT deserve the town leader position.

Noraa it's posts like this that are not helpful and make me think you are scum who feels they were "caught for the wrong reasons".

But like, in the effort of trying not to make you have an aneurysm, I'm going to stop telling you why you are scum, and say this much.

If I have a town leader position, it's because people read me as town. Including you. There's no other pre-requisite.

If you want to prove me wrong, tell me who you think is scum that I am ignoring, shoot one of them and we'll work from there.

Give me shit to work with so if you DO flip town, it's information for us.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

scroll
telling mafia who we would pass the scroll to should be secret

for the reason that pocketing and a few other common mafia strats are made less viable if we do this

For the 2nd person who we know is town, yes

not for the first person

[Lady Lambdadelta]

especially not when they are going to die

[Lady Lambdadelta]

We just need to kill Noraa already and stop stagnating the game, please.

you are literally just saying. Ok guys no matter what happens, the best choice is always to just follow me and do what I tell you to.

In this situation?
Yes.

You're not reading it incorrectly, I'm sorry it's frustrating, but that is how it is today.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Oh and Noraa?

I'm completely full of myself. I have to have confidence in mafia, or what is the point? I can't belabour worlds where I am wrong and hemm and haww and hesitate.

Is there a chance you could be town, Noraa? Yes. There's a chance anyone could be town right now.

Does that chance give me pause and want to let you live? No. Never. You're high enough odds of being scum that I feel like this is a positive outcome. We learn a lot either way.

So I'm begging you to stop struggling and trying to live and start considering who is scum and talking to me about your opinions on the game because you're not going to survive, so it's way more useful.

I'm not talking to you. The more I talk to you the more I want to rage kill you if I get the scroll. You keep saying that proves I'm scum. No it fucking doesn't. It just means ur an expert at tunneling.

Okay, then go talk to Toog. Talk to someone about your scum reads and leave your last will. I'll stop antagonizing you.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm sorry it's frustrating, but that is how it is today.

we went from "go cry in your grave noraa" to this?

wow and I'm the survivalist?

Noraa, I'll leave it at this.

If you're town and you think I am scum. If you really think I drew a red role pm, say it now and you can shoot me and I really won't care.

But don't shoot me because you're frustrated. All that will do is make me believe you are scum even harder and shoot someone on that evidence. It'll be the most liekly thing to kill 3 townies, if you are town.

So if I'm frustrating you, I get it. You don't have to talk to me. But at least talk to someone else about your reads so we have a record of them before you die and pass your scroll.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Give me shit to work with so if you DO flip town, it's information for us.

then give noraa the chance to do it by taking the pressure off of her and starting a wagon on someone else

if noraa is town this gives her the chance to contribute without feeling pressured to defend herself
if noraa is scum she is going to die today regardless

and it gives us the chance to get more interactions with a wagon on someone who is not already doomed

This is an awful idea.

No one else we wagon is gonna feel the slightest bit of pressure. Noraa has a space to talk about her reads now. Why does Noraa need to feel as if she can live to do that?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

But don't shoot me because you're frustrated. All that will do is make me believe you are scum even harder and shoot someone on that evidence.

if that happens, its bc you tunneled too hard and frustrated me. You are overly confident and now "worrying" about someone else being stubborn is really rich

Noraa, I'm aware you think I'm town, so I want to state this for the whole game, okay?

You have done nothing but state I am town all game. So if you shoot me, we are going to assume you are scum.

And if you shoot me for this reason and you are town, it is game throwing. You would be admitting to shooting someone you think is town because they annoyed you.

I want to avoid that situation if you are town. I don't think you're town, but I want to avoid it.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like you seem to be taking me wanting to kill you personally and behaving in a manner that reflects that I've done something wrong for wanting to kill you.

I'm following my belief that you are scum. I'm sorry I have found you to be scummy, but it's not personal and I just...

gahh

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Give me shit to work with so if you DO flip town, it's information for us.

then give noraa the chance to do it by taking the pressure off of her and starting a wagon on someone else

if noraa is town this gives her the chance to contribute without feeling pressured to defend herself
if noraa is scum she is going to die today regardless

and it gives us the chance to get more interactions with a wagon on someone who is not already doomed

This is an awful idea.

No one else we wagon is gonna feel the slightest bit of pressure. Noraa has a space to talk about her reads now. Why does Noraa need to feel as if she can live to do that?

what do you mean they are not going to feel the pressure
when i say noraa is going to die today i mean she is going to be passed the scroll today regardless of if that is because she was voted it or not
anyone who is voted should absolutely feel pressured because we are going to vote with the intent of passing the scroll to them with that vote

p-edit
also i do not think that town noraa passes the scroll to someone useful in the situation where she is voted the scroll
the highest scum read will almost certainly get passed the scroll
we do not have to vote them because they are doomed
so it is better to vote someone else

Tell you what.

The only other person I'm willing to wagon today is you.

Would you prefer this?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Town Noraa probably does get this frustrated but I'm not convinced scum Noraa doesn't fake it and we 100% have to flip Noraa at this point regardless. So Noraa if you actually are town please take a step back from the game and come back ready to find scum instead of just yelling at LLD.

Please listen to the cat? Flareon? Whatever?

Like talk to them. Don't talk to me. Ignore me. Just talk to them.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Give me shit to work with so if you DO flip town, it's information for us.

then give noraa the chance to do it by taking the pressure off of her and starting a wagon on someone else

if noraa is town this gives her the chance to contribute without feeling pressured to defend herself
if noraa is scum she is going to die today regardless

and it gives us the chance to get more interactions with a wagon on someone who is not already doomed

This is an awful idea.

No one else we wagon is gonna feel the slightest bit of pressure. Noraa has a space to talk about her reads now. Why does Noraa need to feel as if she can live to do that?

what do you mean they are not going to feel the pressure
when i say noraa is going to die today i mean she is going to be passed the scroll today regardless of if that is because she was voted it or not
anyone who is voted should absolutely feel pressured because we are going to vote with the intent of passing the scroll to them with that vote

p-edit
also i do not think that town noraa passes the scroll to someone useful in the situation where she is voted the scroll
the highest scum read will almost certainly get passed the scroll
we do not have to vote them because they are doomed
so it is better to vote someone else

Tell you what.

The only other person I'm willing to wagon today is you.

Would you prefer this?

yes

it will get us a lot more beneficial information then continuing to wagon noraa

Understand if we do this, I'm killing you.

It's not an "oopsie poopsie" fake wagon where you get a few votes and get to pretend.

I will kill you and you will have no recourse for it. It won't matter you agreed to it. It won't matter how townie you seem.

I will just shove a wagon down your throat and you will die.

Is this preferable?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Are you actually scumreading Theta Alpine?

Yes.

If Noraa picked me, that was one of the people on my shortlist for a bullet.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I have one other person I've been wanting to kill for a while but I've been mostly saving that for "when I die I'll shoot" but...

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm basically ragekilling along with some other things but if LLD is scum, that's two birds with one stone imo

If you are town killing someone you are certain is town, you're game throwing.

At least pretend to scumread me, don't give me this "oh she's so anti-town" because I'm killing you.

Like before I was pretty certain you were scum. Now I'm just praying you are because if you aren't you're more or less saying "winning this game is less important to me than getting to be petty".

And I don't know if people want to play with that, so.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

My reasons:

Considering she can push this hard, she is 100% a threat to town. I did mess up some but I don't believe at all that she's willing to reconsider even for a second. She is way over herself and squashes all other opinions. I will bring her down with me to prevent town from having this absolute domineering player that is, as far as I'm concerned, pushing in 100% the WRONG places. She is not helping town and is so fucking frustrating to work with. I do not think town benefits from her reads and presence AT ALL. Perhaps this is hypocritical coming from me considering my playstyle also sucks ass but I mean in the end, its beneficial for town cuz we get basically two policy lims.

Honestly, like, you can say you don't like the way I play, but I'm recognized as one of the better players on this site as both alignments and so this whole "oh she's so bad it hurts town" stuff is just a fantasy you're inventing to try and justify this to yourself.

I'm not scared. The only person who looks bad from this is you. If you're town and kill me while knowing I'm town, you shouldn't be proud about that, you should be ashamed.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

"winning this game is less important to me than getting to be petty".

sounds exactly like your play. you are all "all these people can't die while I'm alive but when I'm die, just kill them all"

That's not what I said.

I'm not petty because I genuinely think you are scum.

I'm not petty because I genuinely think those people are town.

I'm not petty because I know I am fallible. I'm not saying "kill them right away when I die" I'm saying "these are my townies. I'm not killing them while I'm alive, once I die reevaluate them don't just use my reads to clear them".

See, the difference between me and you is that I am using and developing actual reads and also owning my fallibility that I could be wrong.

where as you have a chance to play this game and kill scum if you really are town, and instead you're blaming anyone you can but yourself. It's not my fault I found you scummy and want to kill you, so I convinced others to do it.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i actually dont remember doing this as scum now that i think about it :3

I do, but it's neither here nor there.

I don't wanna bother trying to sort you while you're being helpful, and once I die others can sort you.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm not scared. The only person who looks bad from this is you. If you're town and kill me while knowing I'm town, you shouldn't be proud about that, you should be ashamed.

I just vigged two strong prs in a game and won the game for town by killing scum with my last shot anyways. My play is unpredictable and shit at first but I have proven to be beneficial to town at the very end and enough to win regardless of my mistakes. My play has flaws but I will stick with it bc it has proven to be greatly shockingly accurate when needed.

It doesn't matter what you've done in past games. Those are "mistakes". "Mistakes" happen.

This is actively admitting you know I am town. Like everyone knows I am town. Scum doesn't play like this.

And deciding that killing me instead of forcing scum to kill me is "pro-town". That you want to kill a TOWNIE that SCUM WILL KILL ANYWAY.

Over shooting for scum.

That's not "your own methods."

that's actively game throwing, Noraa.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

If I kill you while knowing you are town, maybe you should think twice before going ham on a newbie page 7 in a game.
rather than blaming everything on someone that has way less experience, consider that maybe you haven't done the best either.

If you are town you played poorly and deserved to die. I'm fallible, I can make mistakes. But you look like scum and have played like scum.

But telling me to my face that because I got one read wrong, a read that would be easy to get wrong if indeed you are town given how you played.

And that I've somehow done something wrong.

You're delusional. I'd do this 100/100. It's not my fault you're deciding to game throw. Managing your emotional state is not my job, it's yours. You came here to play a game and you have a role to play if you are indeed town. Killing a townie is playing against your win condition and is against site rules.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

scum will not kill you anyways. You are tunneling town hard and have been the one swaying this entire game with your stubbornness. Why tf would they kill you?

If you are town, and you think that me misreading you makes me a bad player who will never be right.

And you can't understand how my playstyle is scary for scum.

Or how multiple people who knew me going into this game said "they should have just shot LLD N0".

Then I can't help you. If you're town, I'm sorry I was wrong. But I'm not sorry for killing you.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like it would be different if you thought I was scum.

But you've clearly expressed a hard town read on me.

If I had convinced you that I was scum, I'd eat my shame bullet and we'd die a dance together.

But that's not what's happening. What's happening is one of two things

1) If you're scum, you're trying to justify shooting me so I am less certain you are scum once you do kill me. If you are scum, we're all gucci. I understand the play, it's good. Which is why I'm ignoring this world for the moment.

2) If you're town, you're justifying shooting me to feed your own emotional state, while admitting you know I'm town, and admitting this hurts your win condition.

Like...

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I do, but it's neither here nor there.

I don't wanna bother trying to sort you while you're being helpful, and once I die others can sort you.

another life! :3

Perhaps.

It's been fun playing with you again either way. <3

[Lady Lambdadelta]

she's basically admitting she's scum at this point

the question now is do we pivot off her and come back to her for the 3rd scroll or hard push this thru come hell or high water

It's tempting.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

push it through, advance the game. not even a question

It's an interesting dilemma though.

She's marked herself as a player who will ALWAYS shoot a townie, right?

Regardless of her alignment.

so why let her shoot?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Unvote

[Lady Lambdadelta]

She's marked herself as a player who will ALWAYS shoot a townie, right?

no. not exactly.

You're calling me town while looking to shoot me.

and I know I'm town.

So from my perspective this is always true.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

yea she just realized the worst case scenario for her is to not get to shoot LLD for her scum team

You're a fucking genius.

In almost all other worlds, it's wrong to not vote Noraa here.

but Noraa has admitted to being scum.

So we always treat her as our backup.

We vote someone, we let them kill someone who isn't Noraa and then we kill Noraa.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

noraa is definitely getting scroll last today unless we miss on scroll 1 and hit on scroll 2

Agree.

We lose our confirmed townie time with the 2nd player this round only, but in exchange we get an entirely new phase.

It was different math when Noraa had a chance to be town, or a chance to shoot scum, but now she's gone this path....

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Okay, wanna kill someone else who is scum?

Vote: Hopkirk

[Lady Lambdadelta]

C'mere Flareon.

THE POKEWAGON IS LEAVING THE STATION.

ALL ABOARD FOR KILLING SCUM

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Oh no but his posts are so fun

I assume this is the "who I would have shot"

Correct.

His posts are exactly the space of where I would be if I were scum this game.

Agreeing with most people.

Using a gimmick to hide themselves.

They townread me without a lot of good reasons and I didn't get great vibes.

They agreed with Isis and Bell being scum which was ???

I'm pretty sure they are in the "scum zone" and I want them dead.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I haven't thought for myself all game, why start now?

VOTE: Hopkirk

I would like an explanation at some point though

Just gave you one.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like you have to remember.

the more pubilc and vocal you are, the more likely you are to die.

People like Mush and I are townie but marked for death. IF we're scum it's kind of over.

but Hopkirk is on no one's radar. No one is marking them as scum, no one marking them as hard town.

which means they will escape most lists and live a long time.

Which is what scum want to be here.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

but Hopkirk writes poemz D:

I love the poems too, but my first thought when I saw them was "using a gimmick this game is a great scum cover to avoid lists and having to be dredged down in fights that kill you".

[Lady Lambdadelta]

CMERE ISIS

JOIN MY CHOO CHOO TRAIN.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

everyone knows poetry is better when threatened with IMMINENT DEATH

I HAVE SO MANY TOWN READS

HOPKIRK IS IN MY...

EDGAR ALLEN PoE

HUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUE

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Pooky you're a bad influence on me this game.

I'm turning into Fate, with less rage issues.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

like i dunno why you're so upset about being voted.

think of it as us voting you to be Queen.

excuse me, no. im the queen. there will be no elections.

How do you feel about Hopkirk, Taylor

[Lady Lambdadelta]

like i dunno why you're so upset about being voted.

think of it as us voting you to be Queen.

excuse me, no. im the queen. there will be no elections.

How do you feel about Hopkirk, Taylor

could be scum. not sure. i dont read poems.

I'd like you to take a look.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

so. the current gamestate is a disaster. LLD, you need to shut up and take a step back. your town leadership is frankly awful and we are about to wind up with three dead townies and nothing to show for it.

Oh this is interesting.

So you think Hopkirk is town, then?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

there was a huge noraa wagon that appeared out of nowhere and became very large. no counterwagons developed. no one defended noraa, except a couple people who know noraa well on weak meta grounds. but like, no one really stood up for noraa. where were scum trying to sow division and chaos? where were they trying to start counterwagons? scum LOVED the game the way it was, because it was a huge 1v1. and VCA and wagonomics are impossible because lld is bullying everyone and being town leader. all other voices are drowned out, and so the scum can just float on by without doing anything.

so why are you upset about the Hopkirk wagon again?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

is Taylor scumtelling rn

Pooky, I need advice.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Cause Taylor was okay with me doing this to Noraa, weak defense.

But I switch it up and suddenly Taylor is contesting my leadership.

It's spooky, right?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

What is the % Noraa is just scum who looked doomed and scum wanted to bus asap?

Yeah usually no counter wagon means scum are bussing, not the other way around, lol.

there should be some scum looking to get town cred for being OFF WAGON if Noraa was town, right?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

so why are you upset about the Hopkirk wagon again?

purely because youre leading it and you need to sit down and shut up and let the game develop organically. 9 times out of 10 when a big ego comes in and takes over the town it ends badly for town, regardless of whether they are town or scum, because scum can nudge the plan away from themselves and skirt by without having to expose themselves at all. what we need is a bloc of townies working together. what we have is a dictator deciding everything.

We have a bloc of townies working together.

You're just not in it.

Look at me work and listen to Pooky and MurderCat and Mush and fidget.

Lmfao

[Lady Lambdadelta]

when taylor gets a scum pm she likes to look for speeding trains and jump in front of them

So why does Taylor do this now, though?

Like I know Noraa is more or less outed scum right but

Why was Taylor basically lurking the thread and letting the Noraa death happen only to suddenly show up when we switch to hopkirk and go off like this?

Prima facie reason is Hopkirk and Taylor are both scum right?

and losing Noraa was acceptable, but losing Hopkirk was less so.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

noraa is probably town. lld, you need to be shot so we can actually play mafia. im fine with being given the scroll. but please make sure that if you kill me and noraa that you do it on the same day so that one of us can shoot lld. whether shes town is kinda irrelevant, because her presence in the thread is currently a disaster for town.

hahahaahahhahahahah

Man, the number of people who want to take this stance with me is hilarious.

I'm generating reads for the town. If you think I'm SO WRONG tell me who is scum then.

Or can you not do that while I also exist? lmfao

[Lady Lambdadelta]

when taylor gets a scum pm she likes to look for speeding trains and jump in front of them

So why does Taylor do this now, though?

Like I know Noraa is more or less outed scum right but

Why was Taylor basically lurking the thread and letting the Noraa death happen only to suddenly show up when we switch to hopkirk and go off like this?

Prima facie reason is Hopkirk and Taylor are both scum right?

and losing Noraa was acceptable, but losing Hopkirk was less so.

fucking stop to think for a second. your logic is so fucking bad here. why would i let one scumbuddy die? and if i were gonna let one die, why not let two die? and speaking up like this never does anything except get me killed as well. i NEVER make this play as scum. never ever. its unbelievably stupid. but because i oppose you, im scum. your logic is on exactly the same level as noraa's right now, but youre calling her scum for it.

Because letting two die is game over.

Letting Noraa die and kill me is great if you and Noraa are both scum right? Then you just need to hope I don't shoot scum and you can take control of the game back.

but now I'm leading down on Hopkirk and that's bad. Cause then Hopkirk kills me I kill noraa and you're down 2 scum.

And it's suddenly 14-3?

that's GG levels of bad.

You're the one with bad logic.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm generating reads for the town

THATS NOT HOW IT WORKS. everyone should make their own reads. you fucking forcing shit down everyones throat means that if youre wrong we lose, and since no one can question you, youre gonna be wrong. you are picking people at fucking random and declaring them to be scum. or people who stand up to you.

It's not random. It's not just people who stand up to me.

And I've literally been swayed by other people this game.

and when I say I am generating reads, I am not "giving reads that people need to be okay with" I'm generating content that gets people to town read other townies.

Gosh this is amazing.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

MurderCat, what's your take on Taylor here and them trying to shutdown the Hopkirk wagon?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

its impossible to do much scumhunting while the thread is almost exclusively you dictating what everyone should think.

give me the scroll please. please please. let me kill lld. if we dont kill her now town loses 90%.

I think by far the highest % play as town here is to let LLD work on D1 and use whether or not she lives and what the associations are to hunt afterwards.

DING DING DING

It's almost liek this has been the plan the whole day.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm generating reads for the town

THATS NOT HOW IT WORKS. everyone should make their own reads. you fucking forcing shit down everyones throat means that if youre wrong we lose, and since no one can question you, youre gonna be wrong. you are picking people at fucking random and declaring them to be scum. or people who stand up to you.

It's not random. It's not just people who stand up to me.

And I've literally been swayed by other people this game.

and when I say I am generating reads, I am not "giving reads that people need to be okay with" I'm generating content that gets people to town read other townies.

Gosh this is amazing.

no you arent. because no one else is allowed to have opinions. so the only read people can get is "this person agreed/disagreed with lld"

You think so huh?

How blatantly are you lying here?

Pooky has their own opinions.

Isis is someone I'm listenign to and debating with.

I just asked MC for their take on you.

Mush and Fidget are their own people.

Just because people AGREE WITH ME doesn't mean I'm MIND CONTROLLING THEM.

Isn't this a little offensive to them? lmfao

[Lady Lambdadelta]

no you arent. because no one else is allowed to have opinions. so the only read people can get is "this person agreed/disagreed with lld"

wait how is LLD preventing you from having an opinion lol

Yeah this is what I don't get.

People are complaining they don't have control of the town because people are listening to me.

Then convince others that your ideas are right then. It's a game of argument. Argue! Make points!
LMFAO

[Lady Lambdadelta]

no you arent. because no one else is allowed to have opinions. so the only read people can get is "this person agreed/disagreed with lld"

wait how is LLD preventing you from having an opinion lol

because if you disagree with her she says youre confirmed scum. youre doing it too pooky.

This is not true, given I've called Isis more or less town for what they did.

I've also called players who contested me on Noraa town.

These are some big time fibs you are telling.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I don't think Pooky is town.

Shhh this is supposed to be for AFTER I die.

I'm trusting you with this, Admiral Isis.

/Salute

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Can I be scum for townreading theta pls tho

Nah.

and Theta might actually be town, tbh. I just wanted to see what they'd do, lmfao

[Lady Lambdadelta]

like i dunno why you're so upset about being voted.

think of it as us voting you to be Queen.

excuse me, no. im the queen. there will be no elections.

How do you feel about Hopkirk, Taylor

could be scum

. not sure. i dont read poems.

so. the current gamestate is a disaster. LLD, you need to shut up and take a step back. your town leadership is frankly awful and we are about to wind up with

three dead townies

and nothing to show for it.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Taylor's right. You are just SRing everyone that doesnt agree with you.

where did Hopkirk disagree with LLD?

Infact Hopkirk has done nothing but agree with me.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Anyway, this is all a distraction from what I'm really interested in.

Taylor will sort themselves our alignment wise later.

I'm way more interested in people's takes on Hopkirk and the hopkirk wagon.

Theta?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm specifically interested in the following players giving me a Hopkirk read especially.

UNOwen
Bell
Zdenek
Shelly
Adorable
Theta
Lapsa

These people, please read Hopkirk and give me a read. "Null" is not a read unless you can justify it real well, please. I want you to lean TOWN or SCUM essentially "would you kill Hopkirk?"

[Lady Lambdadelta]

out of the possible bussers on noraa i think adorable is more likely then hopkirk
but hopkirk is still going to be a scum lean for me at the moment so if people make it clear tayl0r and adorable will not happen i would probably hammer hopkirk

Interesting.

Could you go back and read Hopkirk's posting and tell me like, what you think about some of it?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

murder can you make a full list of town -> scum like I asked uno to did for everyone active in the game

Do I still have to do this Shelly? I think I've made my position on thinking pretty clear

I'd like to see it actually, please.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

faking a post restriction would normally be rather scummy in my book but i am fairly sure in this game it is not alignment indicative

they did seem to attempt some discussion on game mechanics which i like

the blank vote on noraa is lean scum for me
i personally think scum would at least try to explain their vote though

they agreed with another players reads without much elaboration which does not sit right with me
but i feel like this early in the game it is excusable

So your lean right now is "I could kill them because they look scummy, but I don't strongly feel they are scum"?

Is that about accurate for you rn?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

yeah

i am willing to kill them at the moment but i strongly believe other slots are more likely to be scum

Can you describe to me which slots you believe are more likely to be scum?

Actually, I know this might be a lot to ask but do you happen to have a reads list?

It's okay if you like group people together like "here is my top scum pile" "here is my scummy pile" "here is my sorta townie pile" "here is my hard town lock pile"

I just wanna get a sense for your brain here.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

like seriously how do you expect to get towncred with a blank vote
that does not make sense to me
but maybe they expected town to look for bussers so idk

Oh I definitely think Scum was on that Noraa wagon. No counter wagon to me means they knew she was dead and didn't stick up for her. It's another reason I think she's scum.

The question is who and why. I think Hopkirk occupies an interesting spot in the game I expect a scum player to be slotting into to protect themselves, but it's not set in stone. I wanna see how others feel and how Hopkirk reacts to having a big wagon.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Lots of people who don't seem to know you very well LLD.

---

Sadly due to lacking the time
Until tomorrow I'm a mime

I feel like putting pressure here is wasted unless you want to wait 24 hours to see how he shakes.

---

Isis is being replaced.

Interesting...

Oh that's fair.

I'm willing to wait the time though? It might honestly be better because it gives us time to cool the thread down and lets me interact with some lurking-ish players and get a sense.

Also no, people have no idea about me this game and it's really confusing. I'm playing my regular game of mafia, what's over is I've been really respectful this whole time more or less, I haven't raged I've been engaging and people are still on this nonsense.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

UNVOTE:

I'm gunna say I'm with Taylor. D1 is one big personality who honestly looked me like shes more worried about how long she has, and is actively drilling people into dirt. The moment it seemed control was shifting from her I got a slightly panicked vibe.

Honestly feels like Lady is shutting down any discussion that isn't what she wants and I kinda feel Noraa has been shoved into a corner and locked there, kinda feel as well Noraa hasn't given us much choice beyond reading her as scum though with a lot of the reactions which could be what Lady was aiming for and

argh

- basically.

This ain't a scumread on Lady btw. This is a "what the actual fluff have I got myself into here?!". Who on earth drives into people that hard and then says "Controlling your emotions isn't my problem" when you're clearly trying to get on every last nerve?

I literally don't have the requisite attention span to read in depth the 10 pages that appear every 2 hours, especially after a pain day.

Hi Townie

Good to have another solid town read, lmfao

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Starting this post before I finish catching up to say /Tayl0r/ what is /up/ this LLD play is like exactly parallel to my town play and I didn't throw the game, I nailed scum Noraa dead on the money! This isn't anti town play from LLD, this is play with subtlety AND a plan (which I DID NOT HAVE in our game). Step back, reframe the gamestate /yourself/ Tayl0r. I know you defend no-hopers, but this is the bad move for you and for town. Buddy c'mon.

(And as for generating reads, Tayl0r -- are you paying attention to how people react to this LLD dynamic, or are you ONLY looking at LLD? If you're only looking at LLD, you're gonna get nothing. Watch the other players too! There's material coming out of LLD's play!)

As for the rest of you -- this is highly Tayl0r-town play. Also, I'm going to just say Pooky's scum, keeps doing this nudging-people-onto-town-wagons thing without actually seeming to push hard. Also deflected from an Isis-scum world too easily and tried to make it seem natural. I like an Isis+Pooky+others (idk yet give me some time) team.

Now!

Coming back to Hopkirk: Hopkirk is entertaining but the play is garbage. Nothing meaningful coming out of it, obfuscatory posting style, half-focused on irrelevant OOG bullshit. I would not be sad to see this slot go down. I'm all for a Hopkirk wagon. I think Noraa on third is a bad idea, but Noraa is doomed ANYWAY and I am willing to risk that on Hopkirk being scum.

I also agree that Zdenek has all the town-posting of a goblin giggling about stealing toys from children. I would love to see Hopkirk and Zdenek go down today.

God you're so fucking town.

I appreciate the kind words. They mean more right now than you might realize.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Nah, UNOwen, it improves town's chances. The values LLD put out are accurate: we kill scum once, twice, or not at all. There's only one possible world where we hit scum twice and only one possible world where we hit scum none. If we hit one scum every time we win before game over. So if we treat the middle player as conftown and work with them, there is no downside: we get to shape the final kill (because we hit town, maximizing chances of a hit on the third, which maximizes chances of hitting two scum if we were lucky with the first scroll-recipient) or we already hit scum (because only scum has no reason to work with us). The mechanics argument is good for improving best outcomes too, don't be too hard on it.

As a result, I'm happy with just hitting one very scummy player (Hopkirk) right now, and letting my no-hope townread go since she's dead no matter what I do. That'd be, if my reads are worth a damned thing, a scum-kill value of 1, which means we're on track to win still.

Where the fuck have you been my whole mafia life

I'll say this again later when this game ends so less paranoia, but god damn you play like I do. I have not been this mind melded or understood by someone in years, lol.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I've been sick all of yesterday. Has Hopkirk come back yet

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Hopkirk has been one of the active participants recently and has dropped the poems ( ).

Nothing in his posts screamed scum to me.

Hope you feel better

He dropped the poems?

and you guys are letting him live

hmmmmmmmmmm

Man my bloodlust for Noraa's AtE is so hungy but also my brain is not working from fever so