Guns & Roses V [Game Over]

[Hiraki]

1. What is your mafia experience like?
2. Do you prefer playing as mafia or as town?
3. How would you rate your scumhunting ability?

1. big
2. neither
3. godlike on D1

[Hiraki]

I recollect myself and focus. I must protect my Gún, it was in the very rites I swore by when I took the name Rosé.

what if gun is not good?

[Hiraki]

Hiraki, so you would normally — or at least more often than not — end Day 1 voting for mafia?

yep

that caution preaching ain't enough.

?

[Hiraki]

There's literally only one post you've made that could be interpreted as caution preaching Hiraki. /:

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[Hiraki]

I recollect myself and focus. I must protect my Gún, it was in the very rites I swore by when I took the name Rosé.

what if gun is not good?

is this caution preaching???

[Hiraki]

talking about character fluff?

[Hiraki]

Vote: Bell

[Hiraki]

your reads are not only not real but also inconsistent - not sure which is worse

[Hiraki]

that's your response?

[Hiraki]

what a fucking comedian

[Hiraki]

yet you're willing to clog up the thread with a veiled ad hom, cool cool

[Hiraki]

It sounds like you're always or normally a hydra with Rose?
Yes, but no.
Hiraki has thick skin IMO. They can handle it. Probably.
If hiraki is tvting me there's not much to gain by asking them about why they think I was being inconsistent or lying or both. It's just not true and there's not much I can do with it.
If it's SVT, lol, I can't do anything with that either because nothing I could say would change their mind unless they decided to make a show of changing their mind.

1) the fact that I have thick skin doesn't give you justification to try and insult me
2) this isn't how town thinks

[Hiraki]

1. Said you were bad at this, i.e., that you were bad at reading town for town, because I told you the truth and you voted me for it. Which means you either didn't interpret me correctly or are scum.

no - you said

Wow,
you uh.
You suck at this.

so don't dodge the point here - you were/are being a prick

as for refusal to engage, that also struck me as an ~odd~ thing town does more often than scum - stepping down before it turns into a shitfight *and* risking the obvious accusation of running away and refusing to engage.

i don't see the point of playing probabilities here

tho i suppose you could argue that it isn't beneficial for scum to be sticking to reads at all like that, thus its more likely to come from town

but now after tanner's post, you have two abnormalities from town posting that are forced actions (i.e. there's no way that they can be done without intention) and that are anti-town. is the idea here that bell is so anti-town that he's town? i won't buy it and in a game where multiple people are going to shoot tonight, i don't want to play that
game

i agree with 92 - i also just answered RQS for fun but i disagree with ico that it's scummy if sandman doesn't do anything with it. not really worth talking about more than that though.

[Hiraki]

er, have i been playing the game wrong all this time? isn't the whole point seeing whose behaviour is more or less likely to come from certain alignment? (as i type this out, i feel like it sounds sarcastic, but i didn't intent it to be and don't know how to word it otherwise.)

no i did tangle with the phrasing a little bit

i guess the better wording is that you're playing probabilities too hard? to me it seems like you're townreading him for being too scummy to be scum which to me seems like an intentional act from Bell. I think we're agreeing there - although I don't have concrete evidence of that - but you're not agreeing on the final assessment. I'm moreso asking you to think why you should think someone who is actively anti-town is town. Are they doing it because it's their playstyle? Are they doing it because they have a grudge? I don't see a likelihood in either of those things but I could be wrong. What I definitely don't see is a productive way to play the game.

it's not just being too anti-town that he's town, it's more... things that i feel scum are less likely to do. i feel like you won't like this answer.

no, not really but i'm willing to agree to disagree

[Hiraki]

i guess the better wording is that you're playing probabilities too hard? to me it seems like you're townreading him for being too scummy to be scum which to me seems like an intentional act from Bell. I think we're agreeing there - although I don't have concrete evidence of that - but you're not agreeing on the final assessment. I'm moreso asking you to think why you should think someone who is actively anti-town is town. Are they doing it because it's their playstyle? Are they doing it because they have a grudge? I don't see a likelihood in either of those things but I could be wrong. What I definitely don't see is a productive way to play the game.

we're not agreeing on it being *intentional*. if you could show me how those posts seem intentionally crafted to seem too scummy to be scum, i'd see your point and maybe even agree with it. but i'm reading them as posts made in the moment as the game was happening. i guess my answer would be playstyle, though maybe i'm projecting the way i play the game.

how many reads do you have this game?

[Hiraki]

i tried to recall reads from memory, and realized the answer is "less than i usually do by this point". maybe "less than i should". i'll blame it on not yet receiving an answer to the things that currently interest me.

your memory is probably correct, your bias is not

She also voted Dunstral after me. The reads list is nonsensical.

agreed - i do not think it comes from scum though.

On page 5.... it could be scum seizing the narrative early.

do you really believe this or are you just trying to cover all bases?

[Hiraki]

At this point the top 3 players I am ready to vote out are Dunstral, Uncrowned and Rose.

Can you tell me where I should be looking for Dunn? Is it just because he has a wagon? I don't really see a "kill this with fire" that everyone else is seeing.

This seems somewhat counterintuitive. If Bell is scum, then he knows he needs to provide reads. He might choose to hold off to allow those reads to seem more fully fleshed out, but if he’s aware that providing them early is likely to be dismissed as something mafia wouldn’t do, then that’s a strong incentive for him to provide them early. I think the fact they were on page 1 is probably not very indicative of his alignment.

Yeah, this is about the best I can say about the current Bell handwaving here. "Too scummy to be scum" isn't a thing if the person is capable of not being scummy. Bell has done that in other games.

I think someone being rude is probably a feature of who that person is rather than their alignment. I would say maybe it is very slightly indicative of being town, but without knowing a person that’s no better than random. I think that’s quite likely from mafia, yes. Again, simply coasting out a game is not a way to win, you’re likely to just be eliminated for failing to do anything. It’s, at its best, a weak strategy. However, you also need to survive if you’re mafia. So if you piss off the wrong person, you have a strong reason to try to defuse things rather than using the conflict to try to get a better read on them or to use the situation of the conflict to try to get reads on the rest of the players e.g. how they position around the two of you.

I don't fully agree with this but it is stepping into Mafia Discussion rather than being relevant.

At this point, I'm pretty good with a Bell/Rose for D1. I haven't touched on it but I read the entirety of 146 and felt really annoyed. It's so much RP and fluff that it can be summed down to:

"(Bell's) temper may be short and his passion high, but his thoughts and intentions seemed pure at heart." which doesn't talk about the content but just the vigor behind it. If I could scumread people based on their personalities, then old-Hiraki would be lynched far more regardless of alignment.

We debated for a while on whether Rampage was his real name or if he just thought it sounded cool, and eventually agreed that the B probably stood for Barricaded, as that's how he felt in the way he carefully maneuvered around the town, talking about nothing more than his opinions on guns and roses.

Then we also got that which is completely the same thing that Bell had been doing which is probably why my initial assumption was never really considered.

Akarin isn't the worst substitute there but I don't have a great feeling there.

Mod: What's up with Paragon?

[Hiraki]

Didn't even get a post-edit for this. Sad!

I enjoy the roleplay personally. I think Rose having fun is great, so I'll save her for last. Uncrowned or Dunstral will be my primary pushes.

Yeah but are you reading it? Gun is actually playing the game - Rose is floating.

[Hiraki]

Yeah, this is about the best I can say about the current Bell handwaving here. "Too scummy to be scum" isn't a thing if the person is capable of not being scummy. Bell has done that in other games.

So you think Bell is

that

scummy still?

What do you mean still? It's still Day 1 and we're on Page 9. Am I supposed to forgive and forget because he hasn't posted in awhile?

Yeah but are you reading it? Gun is actually playing the game - Rose is floating.

post 146: Bell is picking fights and Rose thinks he's pure of heart. ABR feels barricaded and careful. Uncrowned has a good reads list and seems towny.

post 151 Sandman is "acknowledging the Bell is starting conflicts by being inflammatory, but also saying he's suspicious for trying

not

to engage in conflicts." Vote: Sandman

Why doesn't this count as playing the game?

1) Calling out someone for doing something and labeling at townie should have a reason behind it. An action in itself is not townie but the motivation behind it. If there's no explanation of the motivation, there's no real reason to believe that person is town.

2) You said it right there. "ABR feels barricaded and careful." Literal IIoA in the flesh.

3) I've already called out Uncrowned's readslist to be bad.

4) That's not what Sandman said and it doesn't lead to scum. Even Rose acknowledged that in the same post -

"Y'know, that's shoddy reporting at best

, and malicious at worst. Let's pay em a visit and see what he thinks, yeah?"

It's quite honestly one of the weakest votes I've seen in years. And it's supposed to be an example of Rose doing anything other than floating by???

Good luck Bell!

[Hiraki]

So you're saying that you

think

Rose has scumlean but there's nothing in the post that says that? Sort of like if Gun was just saying that ABR was doing X and Y but Gun also never got to a conclusion?

Besides, who told you to think for Rose?

[Hiraki]

Actually nail in the coffin - wouldn't it have been easier to summarize that ABR was a scumlean for Rose rather than saying the direct quote? But you couldn't do that because Rose never said that so now you're just putting words in Rose's mouth? Weird to me.

[Hiraki]

You didn't want to ask?

[Hiraki]

The whole point of our conversation is that Rose hasn't said anything and all you've done is shown that you've been able to interpret what Rose is saying. That's good and all but I'm not here to put words in anyone's mouth.

[Hiraki]

VOTE: Hiraki

Good luck.

[Hiraki]

Vote: Bell

@Mod

[Hiraki]

ico, talk to me about the hiraki vote? i see there's a sheep gif, but still.

hiraki's scumread feels… easy
on the edge of ungenuine

i like my sheepvote there

Do you think I'm making up reasons?

[Hiraki]

And how is posting a Wikipedia article towny????

It's not me right? He seems to be defending people left and right and then accusing the accusers for...accusing?

First post of the day says we have 6 roses. While your plan isn’t awful it’s not based in reality, it seems.

To add onto this, this also would mean that all 3 scum decided to go rose. Which would mean mountainous, essentially?

Where are you seeing that?

Uh oh!

As for the “pointless question”, I kinda feel like you doing that then felt like you were overeager to look helpful. But it wasn’t a strong vibe which was why I asked about it.

Gamma, I like this. Everytime we've played recently we've been on the same wavelength. It's good.

I won’t deny Hiraki’s Bell read seems OMGUSy but I think he’s mildly predisposed to that sort of thinking. Can you give real reasons you feel this way?

I think he thinks that I was scumreading Akarin. Kind of blew the load there with this though. I wanted to see how far that would go and I honestly have no clue why Ico would be thinking that way other than the fact that it looks like he is thinking that way. Either way, lots of weird connections between random people in Day 1 here.

I got the job.
Probably hopefully.

Fingers crossed!

[Hiraki]

Ah, I misread. Looked too hard at the role PMs. Need to read the other games too.

[Hiraki]

@Hiraki, not just you. It’s complicated by Gamma’s playstyle somewhat. It’s very common for him to white knight as town.
I’m not sure how self-aware he is about it and whether he would play into that as scum tho.

Nah, I've played with Gamma enough.

[Hiraki]

I didn't know either. If that is, I'm not even talking about you there.

[Hiraki]

I was talking about Akarin. Guess people weren't agreeing.

[Hiraki]

And as for defending people, I like to defend people when a lot of people are sort of shrugging themselves into agreeing with bad pushes.

That doesn't correlate with what I said but ok. Sorry for the mistake.

[Hiraki]

@Mod: Any news about JohnnyFarrar?

[Hiraki]

ico, talk to me about the hiraki vote? i see there's a sheep gif, but still.

hiraki's scumread feels… easy
on the edge of ungenuine

i like my sheepvote there

Do you think I'm making up reasons?

i'm saying that the reasons feel easy, to the point where it fits how i'd push as scum early day 1

So the reasons are valid but easy?

[Hiraki]

and...now...you're...voting...the...easy...person...read?

[Hiraki]

PSA: Deadline is in just under 2 days unless there is an extension because JohnnyFarrar hasn't posted in this thread since Monday. Tanner also isn't too far off from prod range.

[Hiraki]

Bell = Mom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Akarin

[Hiraki]

let the record show that i called mena VI and jake scum from the very beginning of that game

[Hiraki]

the fact that bell is trying to undermine gamma's metaread of me (something i also don't agree with because i dont think meta is a good tool) while simultaneously calling him out for asking pointless questions and basically giving out no information (which i disagree with) is pretty hypocritical of this entire conversation because no one is going to vote gamma on a "fake" meta read nor is anyone voting me for a "fake" meta read

[Hiraki]

I'm asking why he said he would rather not use meta as a crutch and then gave you a half-assed meta read 5 minutes later.

Is this the only instance where Gamma calls me town? It's not even the first. You still haven't answered the premise of my post which is "who would actually be convinced by this?" This is just useless bickering about Gamma talking about "vibes" and you're saying that's the crutch of his read.

Also, don't gas light me. Let the record show you later voted Mena's replacement. Though yes, your read of Jake was accurate well done may all rightfully accurate reads be recorded as such.

Yeah, that's fair. I forgot 100% about how badly that slot was blundered.

[Hiraki]

Unvote, Vote: Momrangal

Please someone shoot Bell tonight.

[Hiraki]

This is E-2.

[Hiraki]

I just wanna live the first night tho, honestly. After that, I don't care mich

I hear you - I've been in this situation before. I don't really have any confidence that your current work did anything to sway me over what your predecessor has already done. Especially the fact that the Bell wagon isn't taking off as I'd like it to too.

I'd rather someone in {Uncrowned, Sandman, Hiraki, Johnny, Gamma} than any of the current wagons, but between Bell or me and Momrangal, at this point much better to lim Momrangal.

The only compromise that you get from me is Johnny. The rest probably flip town (100% for me though!)

[Hiraki]

Most of her posts are NAI, and picking that fight with you was definitely so. The rest of her posts had analysis

I disagree with this and I've re-evaluated this read multiple times. Especially the interactions with Gamma have made me really really hinge on this one. I don't think Bell is trying to find scum as much as he is trying to just start arguments for the sake of arguments.

The only compromise that you get from me is Johnny. The rest probably flip town (100% for me though!)

VOTE: Johnny

I'll take it

Need a majority before I switch.

Pedit: uhm sure. You're saying all this while not comtting, not ever having committed to derailing that wagon. It's been building all day and you decide to say something when a more active player takes the slot?

I'd like to add to this that out of all of the people that Akarin decided to compromise with, it's me. The person that she's been gunning for all day and apparently, as scum, I'm going to pick out of a list of 4 people (not including myself) specifically one person who is also scum rather than someone who is town. It's why Akarin is sitting pretty fine in the VI bucket.

[Hiraki]

You dodged literally everything I said just to make a cheeky retort. Got em'!

[Hiraki]

You've railed on me as scum for the ENTIRE day and then when you don't get your way - you say that I need to re-evaluate my reads because I might be town. Which is it? If you're not going to make sense, then no - I'm not going to pretend that you do. Call it "egomania' or whatever you want.

[Hiraki]

I disagree with this and I've re-evaluated this read multiple times. Especially the interactions with Gamma have made me really really hinge on this one. I don't think Bell is trying to find scum as much as he is trying to just start arguments for the sake of arguments.

So much for read the damn game.

[Hiraki]

i'm town because i said it, you have to believe me

[Hiraki]

i'm town because i said it, you have to believe me

Aw, are you mocking me? Yes you are.
That's cool. But like, interspersed with the I'm town stuff is stuff that town usually does because town me is doing it so I'm pretty confident that town post how I post because loop.

Repeating it doesn't make it more or less true, nor does it feel like you're making a point. I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm stating my perspective.

as scum, are you also stating your perspective? does it make it more or less convincing?

[Hiraki]

so your definitive tell is that if you're scum, you won't say "i'm town" all of the time?

[Hiraki]

We should massclaim tomorrow, here's my reasoning:

There are enough roses alive to where mafia cannot win the game by shooting a rose every night. They can try, but the game will end naturally before that point.
We have setup information. There are 6 town roses alive. Make mafia claim to be a rose or a gun. Make them claim what night and where they shot, if they're a gun.

This will split the player list in two, and we'll know how many mafia are on each side.

One rose died at night, we're fine

I have been thinking about this a lot. For starters, ABR was a mafia kill. Uncrowned could have been either.

Sell me on this a little more. There's 11 people in this game, I am town so for the purposes of this, I'm taking it out of 10 (this works for everyone in their own position). If there's 6 roses, that leaves 4 gun. That's a 50/50 shot. I like those odds especially with my reads. If there's 7 roses, that leaves 3 gun. That's a 1/3. I don't like those odds and now we have a pool of 5/2. If there's 8 roses, that leaves 2 guns - both confirmed town. Those have a target on their head for the rest of the game but are useful today only based on how mafia plays (additionally at least one of these guns has potentially already shot their shot). Lastly, if there's 5 roses, that confirms all 5 roses as town, mafia is now in a potential auto-loss position. Therefore, they'd absolutely never take this stance.

My concern is that I can't be the only one who has thought this far. The optimal here is that we get 6 roses but that is only based off of scum playing sub-optimal. The other scenarios are heavily scum-sided.

[Hiraki]

Vote: JohnnyFarrar

[Hiraki]

Are we seriously doing what amount to an RVS wagon D2

Not RVS. He's a waste of a slot and continues to ignore this game while favoring other games.

[Hiraki]

That doesn’t really sound like a scumcase

And person who posts bad things with no motivation is one?

[Hiraki]

I'm pretty sure Akarin/Gamma/Umlaut flip town, sorry.

[Hiraki]

What does that mean?

[Hiraki]

I'm pretty sure Akarin/Gamma/Umlaut flip town, sorry.

Why do you think two highly contested d1 wagons were t v t?

Why are Gamma and Umlaut town?

Why is Johnny scum?

Why? What do you mean why? Is there a rule that this can't happen? Are you really implying this doesn't happen often?

Gamma is the one I'm shaky on. Umlaut is acting like town-Umlaut here which is something that I'd like to test this game. I don't expect anyone to 100% agree with that given how much information I've said though.

Johnny is posting elsewhere and isn't doing anything here except gloating that he's not doing anything. He did this a lot in Day 1 and just stayed under the radar and now he's just openly doing it. I have no reason to believe that kind of gloatpost comes from town other than town that is somewhat playing against their alignment (obviously it's not

flagrant

but it's something).

[Hiraki]

Usually competing counterwagons mean scum are invested in the outcome. The simplest, but not only way, is that the counter is scum. So I am wondering why you think otherwise and what purpose Akarin could have served scum so they went to that much effort to save him?

I think this is very simplistic if not even wrong.

Why did you mention Gamma unprompted if you're shaky on that read?

The three were talking to each other. Seemed like there could be discussion who was scum/town.

What does that mean?

I'm wondering if you have good reasons to think all 3 are town or if you just really want Johnny dead rn.

Is there a problem with thinking both?

I personally felt like Akarin’s reads weren’t valid for a town POV
You’ll have to ask the others for their reasons on Akarin cos I don’t remember theirs rn

I agree with this but I don't think Akarin flips scum.

[Hiraki]

@Hiraki, no. Don't gotcha me. I'm town.

I don't "gotcha" people.

i believe he's currently at E-2, and is him claiming really gonna do anything?

yes it will.

Play me the fool. What's the difference.

[Hiraki]

There's only 3 days left. If you haven't made a splash yet, I'd do so now. I'm very very much okay with my JF vote.

[Hiraki]

I am rather conflicted about the claim talk. I feel objectively that most claims should be eliminated but scum would naturally claim the ones that shouldn't be.

What do you think about what I said about it? I just don't see how there's any town positive benefit to it - except maybe if I didn't put my post down and just hoped that scum would play sub-optimally.

I’d rather this than JF, why the fuck did she ask the same exact question twice? It’s shallow questioning that is meant to appear productive but isn’t.

I don't blame you but what if it's just bad play? I don't see the scum-motive other than going slow. Which is fair but I think there are a lot better candidates there.

I haven’t read any of this game and I was hoping for scum lurk out slot to play this game

My pred picked a rose.

I’ll read through after work

Why aren't you just lying then? Tell me why to take off my vote and put it back on Bell (probably).

[Hiraki]

I feel like you’ve been a bit terse all game Tanner, and it makes you hard to read imo. I wonder if it’s stylistic or scum holding their tongue.

Agreed.

VOTE: Dunnstral
I’m not confident about this but I think it’s a better shot compared to FB

I'm actually agreeing here, especially after the claim situation.

Unvote, Vote: Dunnstral

Didn't really have much to say after that. I'm not 'loving' hoping off Fire but Fire makes a great point that it feels like his wagon is composed of stagnation rather than a scumread. Wagons are tied baby.

[Hiraki]

also, this speedwagon on dunn is making my stomach turn. he went from no votes to E-1 in what, 5 pages? 8 hours? while the other wagon was an uphill battle for the whole day?

I really don't think "uphill" is the right word here. Stalled, sure. Uphill? No way.

[Hiraki]

I wanted to do a follow-up just to make sure I'm sure about this since it is a bit of a drastic stance here. I feel much better after writing this.

We should massclaim tomorrow, here's my reasoning:

There are enough roses alive to where mafia cannot win the game by shooting a rose every night. They can try, but the game will end naturally before that point.
We have setup information. There are 6 town roses alive. Make mafia claim to be a rose or a gun. Make them claim what night and where they shot, if they're a gun.

This will split the player list in two, and we'll know how many mafia are on each side.

One rose died at night, we're fine

I have been thinking about this a lot. For starters, ABR was a mafia kill. Uncrowned could have been either.

Sell me on this a little more. There's 11 people in this game, I am town so for the purposes of this, I'm taking it out of 10 (this works for everyone in their own position). If there's 6 roses, that leaves 4 gun. That's a 50/50 shot. I like those odds especially with my reads. If there's 7 roses, that leaves 3 gun. That's a 1/3. I don't like those odds and now we have a pool of 5/2. If there's 8 roses, that leaves 2 guns - both confirmed town. Those have a target on their head for the rest of the game but are useful today only based on how mafia plays (additionally at least one of these guns has potentially already shot their shot). Lastly, if there's 5 roses, that confirms all 5 roses as town, mafia is now in a potential auto-loss position. Therefore, they'd absolutely never take this stance.

My concern is that I can't be the only one who has thought this far. The optimal here is that we get 6 roses but that is only based off of scum playing sub-optimal. The other scenarios are heavily scum-sided.

How is it scum-sided, though?

How is it worse than not claiming?

I actually missed this post so my bad but the fact that you're not hollering about this anymore and your response was this isn't really making me feel better.

1) It's scum-sided because I don't know how it's town-sided in anyway. We're giving scum information while town has to decipher more scum deception. Again - the only way your play would've worked optimally is if scum played sub-optimally unless I'm missing something drastic which you haven't revealed.

2) I still haven't found the benefit to claiming other than lessening the odds and that's something I made clear in this post. If there's another benefit, you haven't made it clear.

The sequence of posts from 772 to 777 is hypocritical.

Do you have anything you think she’s town for?

7/11 players left in the game are town. Upon an absence of any incriminating evidence, they are more likely to be town

Yet this is what you want to go against JF for?

[Hiraki]

I'm not pushing for mass claim anymore because most people didn't want to do it

That's not what I asked though. You can't just scurry away from an answer and then say "well, doesn't really matter anymore" - you still pushed for it without giving a lot of reasoning and then when I went into my own line of logic, I couldn't figure out a single towny take-away. Now that I did that, your response was almost 'meta-ish'.

And you’re okay shooting Dunn but not limming him? WHY???

I usually misread Ico. I don't really remember that with Dunn especially based off of the current line of logic I'm pursuing.

@Hiraki: I actually posted on the benefit to claiming earlier.

I

don't

actually think we should have claimed at that point, but I don't think it's anywhere near as crazy or scumsided as you're implying it was. I think there was a perfectly valid argument to be made for it.

And yeah, I think you're either missing something on the mech front, or just having a kneejerk mech-is-bad reaction.

If that's your main reason for scumreading Dunn I think your read is bad.

What is the argument? You can't tell me I'm missing something and expect me to just pass off whatever I'm missing. No one works that way.

I feel like Hiraki and Bell took a lot of work to get on the wagon

For JF or Dunn?

@Mod: Can we have an extension for Maxwell? He joined with less than 24 hours left today.

[Hiraki]

btw why'd you bring up you misreading Ico a lot?

Because I agree with your rationale against Ico but I feel that Ico has a tendency to do that as either slot. I guess putting it a little better is that I am apprehensive to use 'normal' tells for Ico. I'm not saying anything about Ico - it's just using past experiences to guide me. I've been burnt before, etc. etc.

[Hiraki]

I'm not pushing for mass claim anymore because most people didn't want to do it

That's not what I asked though. You can't just scurry away from an answer and then say "well, doesn't really matter anymore" - you still pushed for it without giving a lot of reasoning and then when I went into my own line of logic, I couldn't figure out a single towny take-away. Now that I did that, your response was almost 'meta-ish'.

And you’re okay shooting Dunn but not limming him? WHY???

I usually misread Ico. I don't really remember that with Dunn especially based off of the current line of logic I'm pursuing.

@Hiraki: I actually posted on the benefit to claiming earlier.

I

don't

actually think we should have claimed at that point, but I don't think it's anywhere near as crazy or scumsided as you're implying it was. I think there was a perfectly valid argument to be made for it.

And yeah, I think you're either missing something on the mech front, or just having a kneejerk mech-is-bad reaction.

If that's your main reason for scumreading Dunn I think your read is bad.

What is the argument? You can't tell me I'm missing something and expect me to just pass off whatever I'm missing. No one works that way.

I feel like Hiraki and Bell took a lot of work to get on the wagon

For JF or Dunn?

@Mod: Can we have an extension for Maxwell? He joined with less than 24 hours left today.

I went for mass claim because I believe it is a good play. You disagreed, and some town disagreed. I think they're wrong but didn't push it further

Again, not my point. I called it a fundamentally scummy approach and you have yet to justify the town merits. I don't see town making this proposition without discussion, regardless of your play style.

[Hiraki]

I also find it interesting that two of the mafia flip N3 gun after Dunn's almightly massclaim plan that was never explained. I don't want to think about it too hard but assuming that the other mafia has literally anything else, at that point they'd just need to eliminate one town rose and it would be good game, assuming they all made it to D3 (i.e. today). That was a close one to say the least.

[Hiraki]

Where is Hiraki? I'd like Hiraki next.

N2 rose - each shit scum if you tried to kill me

[Hiraki]

you wanna go next? i'm not really picky - i am pretty hard on a dunn flip atm

[Hiraki]

pretty sure we're at E-1 btw

[Hiraki]

I was waiting for more from Akarin because she is confirmed town at this point.

[Hiraki]

try as you may

still waiting on akarin

[Hiraki]

i was also thinking dunn -> titus -> DGB

i dont see DGB flipping but it's my last try if things are really that sour

[Hiraki]

I would much rather have Dunn today and a possible replacement for Akarin at this rate. Scum is going to kill one of Gamma/Akarin tonight (in the scenario Dunn flips town) and I don't think it's smart to move forward until those slots are secured - otherwise the kill is almost assuredly Gamma. Not playing too many games with this right now.

[Hiraki]

I think 101# is just Hiraki either trying to convince Tanner to vote me because he thinks I'm scum in game versus out of game. To me this post seems more or less in-congruent with them being scum partners, though, if they wanted to change a scum partners mind they would need to post in thread as a stimulus to get them moving, you could post in the PT but then they either need to come up with their own reasons or not do so. Tanner essentially does nothing with this.

If i wanted to get someone to vote someone else, i would've told the person in the PT to do it and to come up with independent reasons. Doing it in thread to create connections when there's a PT available is such a terrible idea. This is one of the main reasons that I've been ignoring the whole connections thing. I think it's a dead-end. Scum have a PT and they've been using it because no one really saw the connections here and even now we're having trouble piecing them together.

(no way does anyone ignore Hiraki's argument with dunn about claiming here, so not a good hope here I think)

Dunn still hasn't given a reason why it's pro-town. He's refused to do so under the guise of that no one wants it anyway. Akarin noted that there might be something setup related that I'm missing and then when prompted on it hasn't given an answer.

It's just their results are strange.

I agree here. Tanner is the only person I would've really gone after today (I know - hindsight is 20/20). But I don't think I would've caught Gun-slot scum. I was really confident in my TR on that slot.

There really isn't a need for scum to plan who they'd rather push, town 2 or town 3.
Or rather, it's fairly rare for scum to have an order in mind.

Correct and it's meta but I also do not make plans as scum other than do X (like flip townies). It's hand-in-hand with what I'm saying above where at least I'm making a plan but it's not really a plan as much as it is an action to get something done.

[Hiraki]

There's still 364 days left.