FGO: Mafia in the Lostbelt - 2 Game Over

[Servant Ruler]

Gathered servants of this great realm, I give you my greetings! I shall do my best to serve. I believe the best way to eliminate the corrupt is to identify the pure, especially given the master selection start to our crusade.

If I were to identify a corrupt servant, I would tag

Servant Foreigner

, but in the interest of seeking the pure of heart, my focus is elsewhere.

Mechanical talk, which the majority of servants are engaging in, inherently shall not reliably identify the pure of heart, so my focus is largely in reading the aspects said beyond mechanics.

To this end, while

Servant Archer

may have declared they're not the best choice for mastership, they are the first servant who I feel lacks corruption. In the rvs, it is difficult to reliably differentiate between the pure and the corrupt, however,

Servant Archer

seems to genuinely be integrating into our group without deliberately trying;

Servant Archer

's early stances appear pure of heart.

The prophecy was true - I've now two townreads. At this rate I should have the game solved by page 7.

While a statement of this nature could be made by the corrupt, I am inclined to believe this declaration was made sincerely and the effort to sort the pure from the corrupt was genuine;

Servant Alter Ego

is my second pure servant read.

Though

Servant Lancer

is largely engaged in mechanical talk, I feel they may also be pure of heart, with posts such as 85 feeling sincere.

I’m coming around to the idea that we should be aiming to hit town more than we care about the NP of whoever gets it.

I agree. I've no read on

Servant Saber

being corrupt or pure, so I do not yet trust them.

Servant Beserker

gave a faint indicator of a good heart in 81 (it helps that as of 93 I agree with all three purity reads), but I do not trust the sheep of it in

Servant Saber

's 83.

Servant Beast

's 88 could be corrupt, but I lean more towards purity.

I have a possible guess as to who

Servant Archer

would be; were my guess to be correct, trusting them would be a disastrous mistake here as by meta I'd be inclined to think them corrupt.

Vote to master: Servant Lancer

.

I'm half-way through the thread. I believe

Servants Lancer, Archer, Beserker, and Beast

to be pure, and would master any of them if they were willing.
I believe

Servants Foreigner and

(possibly)

Saber

to be corrupt, thus poor choices for mastership.

Servants Assassin, Avenger, Caster, Moon Cancer, and Rider

I've no read on as of page 5. (Half hadn't posted by then; the half which had were null.) I believe there's one additional servant having not posted in our 11 pages yet and they also belong here.

[Servant Ruler]

In the first 5 pages I saw nobody warn of our page limit for the day so I would remind people that we should keep posting to a minimum. (

Servant Rider

does point this out in 224.) I considered making only one post for the 11 pages to this end, but ultimately decided it would be easier for people to read me if I showed my progression from the first half of the thread to the second. (The more often I post, the easier it is to sort me, but the downside is both the page limit and the ease of identifying who I am. Two posts felt like an appropriate compromise between ease of read and page limit + anonymity.)

146 may be reads rather than mechanics from

Servant Assassin

but I retain no read on them, regrettably. 149 is similarly difficult to be sure, but I am inclined towards good over evil.

151/154 reinforce my pure-of-heart read on

Servant Berserker

.

Not a big fan of Rider's iso atm lol.

It certainly is not an iso which makes me think pure of heart. 224 does

Servant Rider

no favors and I lean towards them being corrupt.

Were we to be in a stage where we were to eliminate the corrupt with our votes, 162 would earn it from

Servant Foreigner

. If

Servant Foreigner

is corrupt, I believe 164 provides evidence

Servant Assassin

is pure. 170/171 do nothing to dissuade me from my belief in

Servant Foreigner

's corruption, but on a surface level may indicate the ones attacked are pure. (Admittedly though, it's not impossible for

Servant Caster

to be engaged in theatrics. The later stages of page 8 make me inclined to believe otherwise, that

Servant Caster

may be pure of heart.)

209 if my guess towards

Servant Saber

's identity is correct solidifies my feelings that they are corrupt with

Servant Foreigner

.

Strange as 226 may be, my inclination is

Servant Moon Cancer

's pure of heart. It's a much weaker read than those on

Servants Lancer, Archer, Berserker, and Beast

, instead being more comparable in strength to the good leans I have on

Servants Assassin and Caster

.

I've no thoughts on

Servant Avenger

as their contributions say nothing of their purity/corruption and their claim could be either.

If I’m remembering correctly Lancer also asked to not be master. I currently have three (four with you) in favor of me, not including myself.

Vote to master: Servant Berserker

.

@Ruler first you say archer is towny and then that if your main-guess is correct that this is actually their scum meta? That feels contradictory

Apologies. I made an unfortunately regrettable, but rather large, typo.

I have a possible guess as to who

Servant Saber

would be; were my guess to be correct, trusting them would be a disastrous mistake here as by meta I'd be inclined to think them corrupt.

This is what I meant to say.

My reads on

Servant Archer

is pure; my read on

Servant Saber

if my guess to their identity is correct, is corrupt.

This should also serve as answer to your 265; if my guess at

Servant Saber

's identity is correct, they are corrupt (thus their placement), but if my guess at

Servant Saber

's identity is wrong, then there's little to tell if they are corrupt or pure. They may still be corrupt off of their later posting even if I am wrong, but I admit my guess at their identity may be biasing me towards this conclusion.

[Servant Ruler]

To summarize:

Servants Alter Ego, Archer, Lancer, Berserker, and Beast

are strongly pure of heart.

Servants Moon Cancer, Caster, and Assassin

I lean towards being good over evil.

Servants Avenger, and not-yet-posted

I have no read on.

Servants Foreigner, Saber, and Rider

I believe are corrupt.

[Servant Ruler]

@Ruler thanks for clarifying. Can you explain why you put Beast on the same tier as me/archer/berserker? Any thoughts on their posts other than 88?

102 was in line with my own thoughts. There's nuance behind 118 that is difficult to be corrupted. 142 furthers this, as I fail to see how the corrupted use this train of logic.

While I disagree with their takes in 145/242, a lack of agreement doesn't indicate corruption in them and they seem to genuinely be sorting, just with different reads than mine.

[Servant Ruler]

GameMaster Cabd:

Lancer (1): Ruler

Lancer (1): Ruler

Vote to master: Servant Berserker

.

These votecounts are incorrect given my Berserker master vote.

I'm not sure why you'd think such a declaration to be town-indicative at all. That's a fairly trivial post.

It is not the declaration alone which makes them pure (tho I would argue it does contain inherent goodness in the way it was said). I was following through on mastership choices, pointing out that while

Servant Archer

may have declared themselves a poor choice for mastership, they were still someone I felt to be pure of heart. As there is substantially more content available, I can point to the posts lacking corruption should you wish.

This should also serve as answer to your 265; if my guess at Servant Saber's identity is correct, they are corrupt (thus their placement), but if my guess at Servant Saber's identity is wrong, then there's little to tell if they are corrupt or pure. They may still be corrupt off of their later posting even if I am wrong, but I admit my guess at their identity may be biasing me towards this conclusion.

This is interesting. Can you explain further without referencing their identity explicitly? What tendencies are they showing?

I cannot think of a way of referencing their tendencies without referencing my guess to their identity as those tendencies are inherently tied to their fairly unique style. I have only three hints I can think of, one too vague and two too specific.

I believe Saber's claim and I don't want the scum team to derail it with a less optimal choice.

One of the potentially too specific hints; if

Servant Saber

is who I believe, then trusting their claim would be a large mistake as they are prominently among the mafiascum population of frequent fakeclaimers.

Would you be ok with being the Day 1 elimination if Berserker is Mafia?

Let me turn that question around: would you be okay with being the D1 elimination if

Servant Saber

is Corrupted?

Caster's just town. Probably wrong, but town.
Shielder's absence from the thread has officially become concerning.

I agree with both sentiments.

you are bad at this, better do sheeping

Oh? And why did you assume 'bad' rather than 'corrupt' in my posting?

Could it perhaps have been because you are corrupt and know I am not?

[Servant Ruler]

I'm not a very hard read, so if you're town you'll sort me correctly eventually.

Incidentally, this may apply to your identity as well, as I have a guess there.

why are you forming reads based on your alt guesses?

Because in the case of

Servant Saber

, it is of critical importance.

Servant Saber

's content I find slightly suspicious even without the alt guess, but with the alt guess I would think their campaign to strongly indicate corruption.

need her to clarify her reasoning in order to get a better read.

I can do this but finding a way to explain it in detail without outing my identity will take a little extra time, given the reasoning I have for most of my reads is something unique to me.

lol i got PM on main

Interesting because I can verify

Servant Avenger

's claim of having not received a PM on my main. I did not receive a daystart PM on any account other than this.

While I obviously don't agree with all of their logic/reads, I buy

Servant Moon Cancer

's 464 as pure of heart.

[Servant Ruler]

And then there's Ruler. Ugh. I don't want to read their posts.

Apologies. I realize my gimmick of choice may not be the most readable. There is a balance between attempted identity concealment and readability and I am aware I may currently be too much the former. I am trying to slowly shift more towards the latter; give me about 72 hours and I am sure I shall have better struck that balance.

they seem confident they can be sorted and I'm just sitting here wondering why I can't.

Oh, the moment folks figure out my identity they will correctly townread me (and my identity is not hard to guess if I do not conceal my style with a gimmick). Yet, I am in no rush to out myself as I enjoy anonymity. However, I will risk this comment:

Their first post feels like they reached the right conclusions long before it was cool to do so.

Not uncommon from me as I am something of a D1 specialist, forming townblocs early and reforming them as needed later.

There are fairly compelling reasons in my opinion for the pure of heart to be so. I will happily discuss these with those who wish to engage in further discourse.

I also find my wagon composition disturbing. Which are the worst votes and why?

If it makes you feel better: my vote on you is because I wish to keep the mastership out of the corrupts' hands, and given

Servant Saber

is the leading alternative, I do not trust them to have it and you were the alternative with the most support among the players I strongly believe to be pure of heart.

Were it possible to masterize

Servants Alter Ego, Archer, Lancer, and Beast

, I would lend my support to them just as much as I lent it to you.

Lean Town

Servant Saber

- I was not initially townreading them, until I did the review after talking with Beast. The points I found easiest to swallow were about their suspicions of the building master wagon on them, in specific the Moon suspicion listed in 235. I also had issues with the Moon reads list, and their justifications were weak. I found it town to be comparing his location to the other candidates and draw that conclusion.

I am skipping your townreads as they are all servants I read as varying degrees being pure of heart.

However, for the lean towns I must protest on both accounts. 235 is an easy post to make as either alignment and one I happen to think is more likely to come from a corrupt individual especially if

Servant Moon Cancer

is pure of heart and doubly so if my suspicion about

Servant Saber

's identity is correct (as this sort of potshot would be within their scum meta).

If your main basis for thinking

Servant Saber

is good relates to thinking

Servant Moon Cancer

is corrupt, please refer to my comments below for why that is an error.

Servant Foreigner

- This was the hardest one on the list for me to place. It changed up slots upon my reread, for one post in particular. 162 is a town post, that's a town confession. Yes, scum has to remember who people are to fake reads and yada yada, but I don't think scum just comes out and says it. They have other good posts such as 171 which showed good gamestate awareness, and I think 388 is a little too blunt to come from scum. It isn't as strong as my other townreads, but enough to put him at the bottom of my town list.

162 is the opposite of a town confession; it is explicitly a corrupt player making an excuse for not having an easier time formulating reads. I can point to dozens of players who have used similar excuses when corrupt but none from players using it when pure of heart because it is inherently a corrupt excuse. 171 is an easy accusation to throw out as a corrupt individual and not one likely to be indicative of the accused being corrupt. It is in fact a post disproportionately likely to be made by the corrupt specifically because it is such an easy accusation to be made against

Servant Assassin

. The closest you have to a point would be 388, which I admit could indicate town - if there were followthrough. Near as I can tell, none exists, and a post lacking followthrough means it was not something asked with an intention in mind. Not inherently indicative of corruption (pure of heart players can ask something and not give followthrough), but guaranteed to be nai at best.

majority of the comments are just "this post is pure of heart" without walking through the thoughts that make them believe that.

By and large, it's because you haven't asked. I am all too happy to elaborate on a read when prompted to, but lacking this I am not going to do so out of the blue.

I could see it, however, providing plenty of backtracking via "Oh I guess I was wrong on who it was"

If it makes you feel better I believe even if my identity guess on

Servant Saber

is wrong, the slot is corrupt anyway. Not as

strongly

, but still there.

Scum

Servant Moon Cancer

- Originally one could have made the argument that such controversial reads in 226 were more likely to come from scum. Then, they change their entire list up in 462 after receiving a lot of flak over a few of these reads, one central one is their read on me. They justify the read on me in 238 (and I use the term justify lightly). The person who calls it out (other than me I believe) is Alter, their lowest scumread. There is no backtrack, there is no attempt to read me, just a strange flip. Even if they said "Well my strongest townread is pro-Berserker Master" that would at least make some sense. The backtracks feel too inorganic.

I would raise the counterargument of simple motive, giving the risk and reward of the action undertaken and what it would strive to accomplish as either a corrupt or pure of heart.

With the initial readslist of 226, this post came out of the blue. It was random, it was largely against the grain, it was something going largely against thread consensus, with no logic presented, with nothing backing it up. Ask yourself, what does this accomplish if the player in question is corrupt? It casts attention onto them, it makes people give a side-eye to them, it makes the players think the individual in question is suspicious. It draws the eye and makes players focus on

Servant Moon Cancer

. None of this furthers the agenda of the corrupt. It gives a corrupt player nothing but unwanted attention, making individuals naturally suspicious of them.

I realize "too scummy to be scum" is a fallacy, but this is not using that fallacy. This is taking a look at which faction would be more likely to make the post in question. What possible advantage, what possible goal, was there in

Servant Moon Cancer

making that post if corrupt? It is not going to sway the minds of the masses. It is not going to convince the town that they are wrong on any of their reads. It cannot dissuade the town from pushing on the corrupt and cannot dissuade the town from correctly identifying those pure of heart. So what possible goal can there be for a corrupted servant to post 226? I can think of no motive and no reason for it.

In contrast, if

Servant Moon Cancer

is pure of heart, the motivation to post 226 is self-explanatory: they had formulated reads and made the decision to share these reads with the rest of the gathered.

When it comes to the shift in reads in 462 without prompting, the presented reads may have more in common with the group consensus (particularly a fair amount of overlap with my own takes), but I believe there is strong evidence that they formed these reads independently after having caught up, especially since their reads are not literally identical to other players. For instance, 464 does a good job of explaining the differences between their reads and mine.

Servant Moon Cancer

shows a strong individual thought process there unique to them, with reads that serve no function if they are corrupted.

What benefit is it to them to strongly scumread

Servant Alter Ego

, a consensus townread, while otherwise following the majority of the consensus in their own townreads? If they were corrupt, I struggle to see how. I admit it is not completely impossible, but the simpler explanation to me is they have their own takes spurned from genuinely forming reads thanks to being pure of heart.

It is also in part

because

there is no backtrack. There is simply a flip. A corrupt servant is more likely to try and justify a shift in their reads thanks to fear of suspicion were they to not justify it. (You even point out how this works with your take on me and how if I were corrupt I could justify a shift in read on

Servant Saber

. So you must be aware of what I am talking about.) A servant pure of heart fears nothing, so they feel no such obligation and are more free to truthfully speak their mind, even if it involves a shift from their prior thoughts.

Is this sufficient explanation for my read on

Servant Moon Cancer

?

[Servant Ruler]

@Ruler can you explain why you’re scumreading Saber independently of your main-guess now? Because you weren’t before

The terrible readslist in 472 for a start. I didn't like 339. The 132/203 combo left a bad taste in my mouth.

However,

Servant Saber

's latest posts have caused a shift in my guess to their identity. There is exactly one player who who make 520/522, and he is someone totally different from my initial guess. I am aware that having an initial guess on his identity that was completely wrong means servants are not going to believe me when I say I know his

actual

identity 100% now, but I can fairly easily prove who he

actually

is now that he has made it unambiguous who he is. (And after he reads this post, he will be able to vouch that I know who he is, confirming it himself.)

He is a player that I should be able to read quite well, and I can see the markers for him potentially being good, but I admit I am still concerned. Knowing his identity, I should be able to read him as clearly pure here. I am reading his posts as if his normal (one very specific) anime avatar were there (although he is not currently using that avatar, it still helps to picture him with it), but it is something of a contrast to see him this game advocate for being an IC compared to his stance in another game featuring a similar conftown-decided-by-votes mechanic. He is both more active here and more interested in being elected rather than electing others.

If he were pure, instead of seeing 'this is a possible town marker', I would be expecting to, upon having learned his identity, be able to read his posts and instantly tell he is good as I am one of the better players on site at reading him. (My posting this will be a dead giveaway to

Servant Saber

of who I am, regrettably, but I have no way of explaining this without outing myself to him.) Instead of him instantly sending off town vibes that I immediately read as pure, there is a bunch of things that may hit some town notes but do not strongly speak to me as being pure of heart.

This said,

Servant Saber

is someone who, if pure of heart, is easy to sort with time. He was not lying about strength in the earlygame and is a frequent early nightkill due to how strongly he threatens the corrupt. Given this, I owe a benefit of the doubt; he is never someone I would eliminate on D1 even if like in this game I struggle to see him as pure.

(This should also answer

Servant Berserker

's 548.)

I believe that the POE of {Alter Ego, Foreigner, Saber} has three scum. That obviously leaves one scum but I am sure we can find that one eventually.

Did you just POE in a game some people barely posted? So fake

POE in a game some servants have barely posted is perfectly doable if you generate enough townreads from the content posted.

Spoiler: Servant Alter Ego response

171 is an easy accusation to throw out as a corrupt individual and not one likely to be indicative of the accused being corrupt. It is in fact a post disproportionately likely to be made by the corrupt specifically because it is such an easy accusation to be made against Servant Assassin.

It being an accusation that is likely to be inaccurate doesn't make it inherently scummy, though, town make bad reads all the time. I can see why people didn't like assassin's read of lancer and foreigner wasn't the only one to push back on it. I don't think that particular post is inherently

towny

per se but in and of itself I don't think it's bad.

Did I say the accusation being inaccurate made it inherently scummy?

I did not.

I said the accusation was

easy

, in a way more likely to come from the corrupt.

I think you're assigning too much credit here for naked anti-consensus reads, if moon was able to back them up with something solid I might be convinced their beliefs were sincerely held but when I questioned them on it their explanations were absolutely horrendous and felt more like they wanted to ensnare me in a cheap "gotcha!". Something doesn't explicitly have to be

advantageous

for scum to do it, and that seems to be the crutch for a lot of your reasoning. The question

should

be whether you see their behavior as genuine, and it is incredibly hard to see any reason why Moon's reads are sincerely held or have real conviction to them given the fact that they don't seem to care to advance them in any meaningful way despite people not agreeing with them.

The metrics "genuine behavior" and "do not give advantage to the corrupt" are not mutually exclusive. In fact they build upon each other and both apply. I do in fact believe their behavior is genuine.

An explanation not being satisfactory to you does not make the explanation come from the corrupt. The behaviors you describe do not make

Servant Moon Cancer

more corrupt; they are evidence they are

not

corrupt.

What is the strong individual thought process, exactly? All their explanations are completely vague and halfhearted, with many saying nothing at all.

I am a servant who also makes vague 'halfhearted' explanations which say nothing. I know this behavior to not come from the corrupt as I myself specialize in it.

By the same token, Foreigner's scumread of the widely townread Caster is similarly anti-consensus, but the strength and conviction with which they are pushing it feels a lot more real.

Servant Caster

is far less an anti-consensus read than you are. Many held at least some reservations if not suspicion on

Servant Caster

. Did you forget all of the servants having engaged in questioning there?

Servant Foreigner

was far from the first. If anything, suspicion on

Servant Caster

was going with the thread consensus present at the time. Thread consensus has

since

shifted to where

Servant Caster

is more widely seen as pure of heart, but at the time

Servant Foreigner

fingered them, that was not the case. I would know as I came in and read it all at the same time.

This is just absurdly convoluted reasoning, it's all cosmic brain thinking that aims for a counterintuitive explanation in avoidance of the simpler one.

Not so. It is simple fact. A corrupt individual is more likely to attempt to justify their shift in stance. This is not theory, this is a basic fact of the game.

Servant Moon Cancer

did not attempt to justify their shift in stance. It is possible that they could be corrupt who decided to not try to justify their shift in stance, in the hopes that it would be seen as "too scummy to be scum" behavior, but

that

is the more convoluted explanation, with the simpler explanation being pure-of-heart not caring.

I'd expect town to at least be self-aware of how they appear to others and be willing to address that

And simple psychology dictates you are wrong. Town players know they are town. They do not need to justify themselves to others. They do not need to put effort into looking town. They know they are town already so they spend less time on this.

Scum know they are not town. They need to justify themselves to others, because they need to put effort into looking town. They know they are not town so they need to spend time pretending to be town.

It does not matter what your skill at the game is. Even a newbie knows this.

They only highlight the differences in your readslist. They do mention which reads they found weaker, but not why they are weaker (or why the other ones are stronger).

Yes, but that is still explaining the differences between their reads and mine, in a way I find strongly indicative of individual thought.

You do not need to explain a read to demonstrate strong individual thought. Just because their explanations were vague and nonspecific does not mean they were nonexistent. I am also a player who gives plenty of vague and nonspecific explanations and I know that trait to not indicate corruption.

My reason to scumread Berserker was not as good as I thought yesterday. Caster looks more and more like a townie stumbling in the dark. Ruler is conditional on Saber and Foreigner being scum, but I believe that the POE of {Alter Ego, Foreigner, Saber} has three scum. That obviously leaves one scum but I am sure we can find that one eventually.

These are all solid explanations of their stances. They are generic and unspecific, but they are still explanations nonetheless.

[Servant Ruler]

I’d appreciate it if everyone’s next post could include two people they prefer and two people off the table when it comes to elimination one. Preferably with detail about each.

Prefer:

Servant Foreigner, Servant Rider

. I should specify that

Servant Rider

is only included because you asked for two servants. In truth it is just

Servant Foreigner

. While there are other slots who may be corrupt, on D1 the only slot I believe to truly be rotten to their core is

Servant Foreigner

.

Off the table:

Servants Moon Cancer, Beast

. Not because they are my strongest pure of heart reads, but because they are the most likely to be falsely accused on D1 when they are pure of heart.

Interesting post to laser in on.

I have a guess for

Servant Shield

's identity and if so their entrance is not alignment indicative.

[Servant Ruler]

Halt!

I am a buffoon.

However,

Servant Saber

's latest posts have caused a shift in my guess to their identity. There is exactly one player who who make 520/522, and he is someone totally different from my initial guess. I am aware that having an initial guess on his identity that was completely wrong means servants are not going to believe me when I say I know his

actual

identity 100% now, but I can fairly easily prove who he

actually

is now that he has made it unambiguous who he is. (And after he reads this post, he will be able to vouch that I know who he is, confirming it himself.)

He is a player that I should be able to read quite well, and I can see the markers for him potentially being good, but I admit I am still concerned. Knowing his identity, I should be able to read him as clearly pure here. I am reading his posts as if his normal (one very specific) anime avatar were there (although he is not currently using that avatar, it still helps to picture him with it), but it is something of a contrast to see him this game advocate for being an IC compared to his stance in another game featuring a similar conftown-decided-by-votes mechanic. He is both more active here and more interested in being elected rather than electing others.

If he were pure, instead of seeing 'this is a possible town marker', I would be expecting to, upon having learned his identity, be able to read his posts and instantly tell he is good as I am one of the better players on site at reading him. (My posting this will be a dead giveaway to

Servant Saber

of who I am, regrettably, but I have no way of explaining this without outing myself to him.) Instead of him instantly sending off town vibes that I immediately read as pure, there is a bunch of things that may hit some town notes but do not strongly speak to me as being pure of heart.

This said,

Servant Saber

is someone who, if pure of heart, is easy to sort with time. He was not lying about strength in the earlygame and is a frequent early nightkill due to how strongly he threatens the corrupt. Given this, I owe a benefit of the doubt; he is never someone I would eliminate on D1 even if like in this game I struggle to see him as pure.

Please discard all of this.

I mistakenly thought

Servant Saber

was a he but upon seeing their pronoun is 'they', I have realized how badly wrong I was.

I realize this removes all of my credibility in alt guessing although for what it is worth, the

actual

'he' in this game,

Servant Archer

, may be the player I was describing above and if so that would certainly explain my townread on him. However instead of 100% sure on

Servant Archer

being the individual I described (who has a very specific anime's avatar normally but currently has a different avatar), it is closer to 40%.

If the pronoun of 'they' is accurate, then I believe I may still know who

Servant Saber

is, but they are not the person who I thought they were in 595, nor were they the player I thought they were before then.

I will need more time to look this over, apologies for being a moron.

[Servant Ruler]

I do apologize for a reduced presence. I am suffering from some ailment of the mind and require rest to recover.

I can still contribute with this;
VOTE: Servant Foreigner
As previously stated, they are the most corrupt slot in the game with the highest chance of removing corruption from the elimination.

my theory had been that Ruler was seeking to discredit Saber out of fear.

Discrediting would be rather difficult for me to do, given that the act of discrediting is inherently an act of corruption.

Yeah, her simultaneously being aware and unaware of what's going on in recent times seems too convenient for me. Good catch.

While I am aware of this scumtell and am a user of it myself to hunt the corrupt, it is subject to meta of the individual as there are players who display that behavior even when pure of heart. Though I am not certain, my first guess for

Servant Shielder

's identity was that they were among the players to display this behavior regardless of alignment.

Read some ISOs because I'm bored and restless. A bit leery of the scumreads being expressed on Rider. That feels like a slot scum would see as low hanging fruit.

A slot appearing as 'low hanging fruit' does not mean the slot cannot be corrupt. I realize my read on

Servant Rider

is comparatively weak and largely based on process of elimination from the slots I believe are pure of heart, but I do in fact not see goodness within them.

My reads have settled down, except on Beast and Shielder. I am not sure what to make of this claim Day 1.

In a 14-player game with 4 scum, even with the benefits of a conftown D1, double-elimination D1, and the conftown being immune to death prior to N2, I would expect the gathered servants of justice to need considerably more strength than normal. This game is almost a mini but with 4 scum instead of 3.

As such, I buy the claim of the individuals involved being pure of heart. We need every advantage possible to offset the extra corrupt individual. After all, just because we have two possible eliminations on D1 does not mean we hit corrupt individuals. What good does the double-elimination D1 do us if we hit good individuals twice with it? Assuming the corruption's kill goes through, that leaves us on D2 with a 7v4 situation, and potentially 5v4 on D3. Given the delay in activating our noble phantasms, in the worst case scenario, the gathered servants of justice need advantages beyond our ultimate power and the master mechanic.

I’ve been coming around to the thought that Saber might be scum but would appreciate a case from those scumreading them.

My plan is to do this after a

Servant Foreigner

elimination. My first effort is on eliminating the guaranteed corrupt before focusing on the probably corrupt. I do not wish to divide our attention between two different individuals and end up with us eliminating neither.

What is it about this town/game/slot that made you think Rider could be POE-scum and not LHF?

1: What makes you think the ideas of 'poe-scum' and 'player who is LHF' are mutually exclusive? Nothing about those two terms means they cannot overlap; players who are traditionally low-hanging fruit can still end up corrupt.

2: The presence of a rather large number of players who have fairly strong reasons to be pure of heart. If the majority of the gathered servants of justice have good reason to be pure of heart, the chances of those outside the group being corrupt are disproportionately higher.

1) Ruler put rider in her preferred-elim pile as a “throwaway,” claiming that the only elim she actually wants is foreigner’s and rider is just there to fill the spot.

That is correct.

I am aware there are four corrupt slots and I am only truly seeing signs of corruption from three. (

Servants Foreigner, Saber, and Rider

.) Of them, I wished to give some time to further reflect on

Servant Saber

at the time, thus the stated second preference on

Servant Rider

, who I admit is not so much a read I see as corrupt (there are possible signs but they are all weak) so much as a read where I simply do not see anything from them indicating them to be pure of heart.

I am aware this means I am writing off too many players as good. (I shall elaborate on this shortly.)

However, for D1, having too many townreads is better than the inverse, especially with a double-elimination, as I do not think it an issue as long as I have at least two names to eliminate today. Eliminate the players outside the initially-too-wide pure-of-heart player pool today, then reevaluate on D2 to see which of the players I initially placed there to see who does not belong.

I believe it is time for me to give a better separation of my reads:

Above Reproach/Absolutely Pure of Heart

:

Servant Beast*

,

Servant Shielder*

,

Servant Berserker*

Servant Archer:

I am absolutely sure that this is

Servant Archer

as pure of heart. As one of the only servants whose identities I feel fairly confident on, he is one of the few I can back my already-existing pure of heart read on with meta.

Servant Archer

's posts are strongly good, but there are players who can appear that way while corrupt; knowing

Servant Archer

's identity leads me to believe this is beyond the range of their abilities as a corrupt individual and thus, they are my strongest pure of heart read.

*Role-based

Above Reproach

For a Few Phases

/Very Highly Likely Pure of Heart

:

Servants Caster, Lancer:

My feelings on both of these slots is similar. Both are as strongly showing their pure of heartness as

Servant Archer

and the only thing keeping them from joining his ranks is that I know not their identities and it is possible the reasons I am reading them as good are things they are capable of when corrupt. Lacking knowing their identities, they are the strongest possible pure-of-heart read I can have.

Above Reproach

Today

/Highly Likely Pure of Heart

:

Servant Alter Ego:

I almost placed

Servant Alter Ego

in the same tier as

Servants Caster and Lancer

, however, intuition gave me some reserves about them in comparison. Whereas I feel

Servants Caster and Lancer

cannot realistically be corrupt, I could not say the same in my own heart about

Servant Alter Ego

, but I feel bad about this, as

Servant Alter Ego

has been strongly pure of heart in their posting.

Would Prefer not to Eliminate

Today

/Likely Pure of Heart

:

Servant Assassin:

I feel their posting has been reasonably pure of heart, indicating they are more likely good than not, but it is not nearly to the extent of my other reads. They have a few things going for them, but are not the clearly town levels of the above. Their claim could be a gamemaster-provided safeclaim, but I am also inclined to believe the claim.

Servant Moon Cancer:

Though my heart of heart tells me deep in my intuition that they are very strongly pure of heart, I realize I have not much to objectify my read here beyond disagreeing with the strong distaste of the slot. I do not think

Servant Moon Cancer

's contributions indicate they are corrupt, but I have little to substantiate this claim.

???/I Cannot Track

:

Servant Avenger:

Their claim is neither good nor evil to me as I can see either alignment making it. Their contributions have been decent, and I admit that they share many of my takes so unless they are bussing they are less likely to be partnered with those I have fingered as corrupt, but in spite of this, I cannot find myself actually locking them down as pure of heart; I am struggling to read them as anything.

Secondary Elimination Candidates/Decent Chance of Corruption

:

Servants Saber, Rider:

See above sections.

Preferred Primary Elimination/Corrupt to the Core

:

Servant Foreigner:

I will need to explain this read further I imagine, and shall do so when able to.

[Servant Ruler]

every time I hit submit I have a moment of panic that I accidentally main-slipped

Not a problem if you use a different skin on the alt from your main.

And Ruler should become 100% town to everyone (finally).

I realize

Servant Berserker

did not end up corrupt, but I am curious; to what logic does this follow? I was one of their strongest and earliest of supporters and among the first to vote there, preferring

Servant Berserker

to both alternatives. How would I be made pure of heart from that? I would think it the opposite.

like it would be a real shame if the entire scum team was in the awol section of the game.

The usual site meta is 1-2 corrupt individuals tryharding compared to 2-4 corrupt individuals who do practically nothing.

Disappointing as that may be to you, that is reality. Identity obscuration does nothing to shift this.

It boils down to scum have nothing to gain by going against the grain. Scum have plenty to gain by going against the grain, if the grain doesn't suit them.

Sure! If going against the grain is done strongly, it benefits them!

Do you think that the, empty, blank, readslist, with zero reasoning and backing, which went against the grain, provides any benefit to

Servant Moon Cancer

?

It should be apparent it gives a corrupt individual nothing. It gives them no leeway, it gives them no leverage, it provides them nothing. They could literally choose to not post and be better off in terms of effect on the gamestate.

Any action can benefit town or scum. It's a question of intent and belief.

Precisely! What intent does throwing a reasonless readslist do for the corrupt?

I can think of none, as it does not accomplish your stated 'throwing mud to see what sticks'. It was after all a

reasonless

readslist. There is nothing it

could

stick to.

I can think of plenty of intent behind a reasonless readslist for the pure of heart. Stating their beliefs for a start. Seeing how people interact with the list. Gauging reactions to the list to generate more refined content. I am intimately familiar with the tactic of, as a pure of heart individual, giving your reads and then using reactions to the reads to get better reads. I know the tactic because I use it. I do not wish to project too much onto

Servant Moon Cancer

as the similarity in their playstyle to my own is not guaranteed to be of similar mindsets, but I feel obligated to point out what you cannot see if you do not have that playstyle and cannot see it as coming from a pure of heart individual.

[Servant Ruler]

As I was midway through writing a post prior to the lock, I need to review it to make sure it does not run afoul of the rule after the clarification in the rule.

[Servant Ruler]

I do need reasons for your scum reads when you have the time Ruler.

Servant Rider

is not a read I see as evil so much as I don't see anything making me think they are pure of heart, when we have so many slots which I

can

see as pure of heart.

Servant Saber

, their play here could be of either alignment, but based on both the process of elimination I have and their given content, I overall lean towards being them as corrupt. The early read of Foreigner as town is out of place regardless of

Servant Foreigner

's alignment as by that point all there was to see is 59, 64, 70, 162, 164, 165, 166, 167, 169, 170, 171, 173, 176, 178, 180, 182, 183, 192, 196, and 198. (I will give thoughts on the nature of these posts later, naturally.) What in those posts would lead

Servant Saber

to the conclusion of

Servant Foreigner

being good?

212 feels like it is attempting to pursue a player that

Servant Saber

believes can realistically be eliminated but who, if

Servant Saber

were pure of heart, they would know to be good. At that time, it was not unanimous that

Servant Caster

was pure of heart; it was still possible to sway individuals to the opposite viewpoint and doing so would have been incredibly pro-corrupt.

336 is out of place given that

Servant Saber

did campaign the way they did and I have good reason to believe it is not a truthful statement if my guess on their identity is correct.

339 is an attempt to have their cake while consuming it; the thoughts of "

Servant Assassin

is lying" and "

Servant Avenger

claimed miller out of fear of

Servant Assassin

's cop claim" are essentially mutually exclusive. Shading both slots is an attempt to deny both slots credit for being pure of heart. It would be more acceptable if the thought was "I think one is corrupt and one is pure of heart but cannot tell which is which", but the wording used did not give me the impression this is what

Servant Saber

meant.

There is an issue with 357 compared to 472;

Shielder - Can't remember him
Lancer - I waffle here. So gun to my head town but

would eliminate as a compromise

.
Rider - I know he's posting but I don't recall his content. Not sure if that's a me problem or a him problem as avatars are hard to tell apart.
Assassin - Gun to my head town.

I have reservations

about how he pursued being master.
Berserker - Moderate town. I don't know if it's jealousy

or something nefarious

over why he got more votes than me while facing much less questioning.
Ruler - Same as Rider.
Moon Cancer - His flip reads scummy right now but I'll give his explanation a second read later when I am not stuck waiting on work.
Beast - Weak town. It would be higher but

major buddying concerns

.

While there may be 9/13 servants listed as varying forms of townreads (the four not with townreads being

Servants Shielder, Rider, Moon Cancer

, and myself), I have left in all of the servants listed as town where

Servant Saber

leaves obvious areas with ease in backtracking the read on them. That brings the number of unambiguously no-backtracking townreads down from the 9 previously mentioned down to an alarmingly low 5/13. Only

Servants Archer, Caster, Avenger, Alter Ego, and Foreigner

are listed as unambiguously town with zero room for backtracking and even of those reads, only

Servants Archer, Caster, and Alter Ego

are strong.

Speaking of

Servant Caster

, when did

Servant Caster

move from being uncertain in post 212 to being strongly pure of heart?

Servant Saber

never detailed the shift in stance there.

740 struck me the wrong way. 747 also feels out of place for

Servant Saber

.

811 is also out of place, given 472; a stated townlean is voting a stated scumlean of

Servant Saber

's; why does

Servant Saber

find the vote odd? If anything, given 472,

Servant Saber

should have been

joining

Servant Foreigner

in voting

Servant Moon Cancer

, rather than questioning the vote. It appears to be posturing rather than genuine inquiry. Something made to appear productive and good, without connection to prior thoughts.

This is especially true if

Servant Foreigner

is in fact corrupt, as this sort of interaction would be the definition of "scum theatre", a play put on to appeal to the masses, entertain them, and mislead them.

I intended to create the case on

Servant Foreigner

here as well, but the thread was locked midway through me typing this case. I believe that this post now does not violate any rules but should I have missed anything and it does then I deserve the full wrath of Cabd and apologize. I have double- and triple-checked it and I did not see any references to identity so I believe it

should

be okay.

[Servant Ruler]

Ok

So

Hi.

I did a quick mod Iso, so yeah.

Dedicating time to this game but I wouldn't expect to much for 24ish hours due to the type of weekend.

A recap would be nice

[Servant Ruler]

Sitting at page 19

Hipshooting-

Alter, foreigner, Lancer

[Servant Ruler]

I got a gut town read on them pretty early, and then not much happened to really change that. Overall, the way they considered each of Assassin, Saber, and Berserker felt like they were weighing each option, and not like they had a predetermined choice in mind. I also liked 119. It is not something that I think that scum would post. They undercut me when I was DEFENDING them lmao

Its curious that you're town reading them off this.

I have a gut scum read off them and for the similar reasons you gut townread them.

I'm not a fan of "scum never do this" I could see it as a paranoia WK from them but then I feel like they are planning out on who to push.

The considerations on the slots you mentioned dont mean a whole lot to me. I felt like they aren't really scum hunting and sitting there commenting about the game without reallt participating

[Servant Ruler]

Also pending certain things, i think sabers claim is believable enough

[Servant Ruler]

It means

It means that tonally you're very IIOA and it feels like you're deciding who's the best push to make

Its a weird thing to have touched your nerves

[Servant Ruler]

Also pending certain things, i think sabers claim is believable enough

I don’t think the question is if his claim is believable or not.

The issue is, Saber made a big deal on how powerful their Noble phatasm is and there is a very small amount of characters that i can see holding such a phatasm

I can also see the mindset of what they were thinking and why the believe it to be a powerful tool early on and not as much later on given that i also agree that most of the toxic 1v1s happen earlier rather than later.

I'm also unsure that this is how scum campaign to sacrifice themselves to better their team

[Servant Ruler]

Yes I know how Upicks work

All factors considered I find it unlikely fake but I'm holding conversations about this here until further notice

[Servant Ruler]

We should at the very least let saber claim who they are

/prod

Totally didn't spend the entire day doing life things

[Servant Ruler]

VOTE: moon cancer[/vote]

[Servant Ruler]

VOTE: moon cancer

[Servant Ruler]

Where is the president?

I would like him to weigh in on the three wagons

Just got home from visiting family over the past two days. Saber wagon is my wagon of choice. Followed by moon. I think the foreigner wagon is trash.

Why?

It seems to me that sabers being scum read largely for a difference in playstyle and ideals.

I also don't entirely yet understand moon cancer but I think im overall going to give saber a light townread.

[Servant Ruler]

VOTE: foreigner

[Servant Ruler]

THIS IS DUMB AF

WHY ARE WE MOVING TO ELIMINATE THE GLADIATOR

[Servant Ruler]

Excuse me for my language but my lord and savior wouldnt approve of my rage.

At least one between lancer/alter is scum for their hard push against avenger.

Thats a horrible trade off but I dont see two scum going to bat for their buddy in this manner

[Servant Ruler]

It is very hard to get into this game and to understand what's going on

[Servant Ruler]

Do you think that having a gladiate ability is inherently townie? Do you think that the way Avenger used it was particularly townie? Were you town reading them before the gladiate?

Tldr, no i don't think it's particularly townie, i think that as a role itself its Neutral but how it was used is not a scum for scum trade and the scum flip there further

On top of everything else, everything strongly points to Saber being truthful and all the push on saber is largely due to playstyle difference and i wouldnt be surprised if there was a bad faith argument being made in sabers direction

I thought saber was more null before the gladiate and I dont understand how they suddenly moved to hard scum by multiple people due to it.

Excuse me for my language but my lord and savior wouldnt approve of my rage.

At least one between lancer/alter is scum for their hard push against avenger.

Thats a horrible trade off but I dont see two scum going to bat for their buddy in this manner

Or avenger either horribly misplayed or is scum but do go on, would love to hear more about this

And i would love to hear more about my sloy being scum but you moving away from it in favor for... (I would have to check) despite me being solid scum.

[Servant Ruler]

off the top of my head I think it’s something like:

our lord and savior: Berserker
probtown: Alter/Archer/Caster
maybe town: Shielder/Rider
null-ish: Foreigner/Assassin
would eliminate: Saber/Avenger/Ruler/Beast/Moon Cancer

This was a post of reference I was speaking if. It came shortly after mastinas wall and her expressing a scum read on you when prior you had our slot as closer to a null read, and its the only null read you expressed interest in getting rid of.

[Servant Ruler]

Who do you think is making the bad faith argument?

I've already made it clear who i think it is and i think my issue with alter is a difference in views.

I'm also not a fan of lancers positipn around alter

[Servant Ruler]

Also sabers getting eliminated ovrr my dead body

[Servant Ruler]

336 is out of place given that Servant Saber did campaign the way they did and I have good reason to believe it is not a truthful statement

if my guess on their identity is correct.

This is unfortunately a further violation of the rules.


I am force-replacing Mastina, the first controller of Servant Ruler. As this knowledge is now public, it may be discussed, although speculation as to the new owner of the slot, and any other slot's owner, is still explicitly against the rules.

This is the first mention of mastina holding this slot. No one knew who ruler was when you made the reads list id 738

[Servant Ruler]

Also sabers getting eliminated ovrr my dead body

literally zero votes on saber... why are you so worked up over people supposedly scumreading saber when there is no wagon?

There are two votes on saber on the previous page

[Servant Ruler]

"Avenger has to be scum becaue that is not how I would use a gladiate so thats not how town woild"

Is literallt the entirety of the argument that two of you are making

[Servant Ruler]

I've got alot of blind spots, probably to many.

I saw several people voting avenger for "bad play" and " sub optimal plat" and nothing on how the gladiate choice was actually scum motivated away from trading 1 for 1 scum which is dumb play

[Servant Ruler]

Alter/lancer are the two that caught my attention, and your mindset feels like you're at least trying to understand oter players but I csnt say the same thing for them.

I was less angr6 and more surprised I don't understand and still dont understand why avenger deserves a wagon ftom the gladiate.

Also, avenger waa null town, became more town when the gladiate happened, and is currently unquestionably town in my eyes after thr moon cancer flip.

Becuse of reasons I jabe already said

[Servant Ruler]

The post right after the all caps was a little servant humor sincr I'm already revealed

[Servant Ruler]

I've already mentioned my experience with mastina is very limited.

But its enough for you to figure out she was the one behind the slot?

[Servant Ruler]

VOTE: lancer i think this is overdue

[Servant Ruler]

I've already mentioned my experience with mastina is very limited.

But its enough for you to figure out she was the one behind the slot?

From her firsr post while I'm at it

[Servant Ruler]

It does feel like your hand was im the cookie jar and youre trying to talk your way out lf it

[Servant Ruler]

Because scum hardbussing in that manner defintely hasn't happened before.

I also defintely can't pull games up to show that it has happened before.

[Servant Ruler]

Why is that the almighty town indicator for you?

You could have been bussing moon cancer for a variety of reasons. From what i have read, alot of his posts were null, non existant, coasting and its the perfect bus for a buddy to get behimd on. I don't think your stance against that is indicative of anything

[Servant Ruler]

For what reason?

[Servant Ruler]

Doesn't make sense isnt a reason. Saber is another person i think is being attackrd for differencr pf playstyle

[Servant Ruler]

VOTE: ruler

[Servant Ruler]

That post is in regards to reading ehat came before me and in between times I'm not around. I can get opinions from what happens when I am around

[Servant Ruler]

For what reason?

I want to see what type of game state we are actually playing in. Specifically I want to know if Scum contested the Master at all or if they decided very early that none of them would be trying for it.

Here are all the things I didn't like about Saber:

I want to be the master. My strength is in the early game and I don't particularly like my noble phantasm.

I don't think this is a sensible description of their NP, which as I understand is some kind of thread silencer that prevents a slot from talking? I don't see the use of it. Them trying to over-sell it as the best thing since sliced bread because it can shut down toxic 1v1s is just ???? to me. We can do the same thing by just threatening the toxic 1v1ers with a policy elim if it ever becomes too much. We don't need a NP activation, if anything this NP is utterly useless and I have no idea why they would think it's around the same power level as a cop shot.

Using mine right away is better than using it later.

This is the line that I originally liked from Saber, I thought the thinking about when to use the NP felt town to me.

However now that Saber has claimed and their NP is like pretty useless, I don't see why Saber would want to

use it right away.

I find it really difficult to believe they were excited about using this NP.

Also another important thing is being a thread leader/town leader. something that the IC really has to do a good job on to boost our odds. From Saber's play throughout the game, I just don't believe they are qualified to be in this position and I don't see why they would volunteer.

This all feels like you scum read them because their mindset and beliefs starkly contrast your own. Even keeping that in mind they are tellimg the truth of at least their identity so it stands to reason that they are telling the truth about other things even if you dont understand their truth.

This sounds like a question of sabers genuiness and imo if they dont agree with the IC they have the right to do what they want.

Opposing the IC rings +town anyway because theres no other point in going against thr IC other than to attempt to shade them and i don't see any indication of that in their posts.

[Servant Ruler]

Also if saber truly did believe ehat they have stated in the thread regarding wanting the master and in their mind they beleived they were doing the right thing, then their actions make sense

[Servant Ruler]

To add to 1514 from Caster, I would again point out that Moon Cancer's very first post in the game was to vote for Saber to get the master and also listed Berserker and both as Assassin scummy

And if they had gotten chosen this would have stuck out if they no longer existed in the actual game thread.

Everyone who pushed for saber would have been looked at closer so if scum could get town to make this push, why wouldn't they.

Also why wouldn't they opt to wait before making the push under this pretense

[Servant Ruler]

I'm not sure but if scum did campaign for it I would look to assassin firdt I think.

The first few pages had Saber campaign it immediately and only backed down when it was obvious that they weren't gojnf to be the choice

I think the way Saber went about it wasn't very graceful and if scum debated who should get it, if they decided that someone on the team shouls get it, scum wouldnt be so clumsy about it nor would come right oht the gate with jt

Pedit: I never said beleive everyone. What i said is that Saber has marks of genuineness and I believe saber is truthclaimjng servant name

[Servant Ruler]

ok

VOTE: lancer

It's supposed to make people look anyway.

I said I'm going to bat for saber and I'm not playing around

[Servant Ruler]

How would your stance change if it was revealed that saber was telling the truth about something?