Not Quite Normal Multiball II (Game Over)

[MalcolmTucker]

How is this game at 11 pages already.

[MalcolmTucker]

Dreading it already.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Catboi

For having the most posts and making me read lots of stuff in the morning.

[MalcolmTucker]

How is this game at 11 pages already.

hot take: commenting about the page count is >rand scum

How is this game at 11 pages already.

is this a scumclaim

discuss

Sussed me out already, well done.

[MalcolmTucker]

Will have actual thoughts in the morning once I've read through it all.

[MalcolmTucker]

you can have actual thoughts now

Ya but I need to read through the thread and I am just home and going to bed. Hence why I shall do it in the morning.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: MonkeyMan576

Not to keen on their posts so far. Their early posts read like they felt a bit desperate to find good reads and appear townie.

By contrast I think Butter is looking really townie so far. Solid posts but nice and concise in a way that's helpful. Same with STD, who I'd agree looks relaxed here while still doing necessary legwork to find mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

I also suspect Klick a bit so far. I feel like their early read on catboi was again reaching a bit, accusing them of being "noncommittal" at a point in the game where half the players were still very much mostly shitposting.

[MalcolmTucker]

thanks!

I voted CSF for 3 reasons:

(1) I think malc's "oh god 11 pages already" thing is very slightly +scum, but CSF's "he seems like he wouldn't mind the legwork of reading 10 pages" reads as overjustification to me

(2) she didn't say hello to me

(3) *reserved for now*

I don't really see why such a post is particularly scummy really. I've since caught up and reflected on where I feel the game is at - I just was quite surprised coming in and seeing so much content on the go already.

I think CSF's point was fair enough that I'll generally read back and make sure I know where I am with the game, but it was night for me anyway hence I knew I'd be delayed on a full catch-up until morning.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think a lot of readslist this early on in a game often feel incredibly manufactured and vague, but it's often NAI depending on how a player approaches the game. Is this how Monkey would usually play?

[MalcolmTucker]

ok so you're less active than I thought. Are you wanting me to scumread you?

That's not the issue here - if you're not aware how active a player is when making your list then your list clearly isn't as detailed or as coherent as you want it to appear to the rest of us.

[MalcolmTucker]

dunn, you continue to astonish me with the amount of effort you put in, time and time again, to not understanding my play

This post very much feels like a deflection. Convenient way to ignore the point being made.

[MalcolmTucker]

dunn, you continue to astonish me with the amount of effort you put in, time and time again, to not understanding my play

This post very much feels like a deflection. Convenient way to ignore the point being made.

why... would I address the point that's being made?

Because it's surely a better look than deflecting onto the argument being made being entirely around playstyle. Players can adapt how they approach the game, saying "this is how I play" doesn't stop someone from potentially reading you as mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

Man, it’s not even sunny yet I’m getting all this shade

And I mean, you’re still not really answering the question — it’s one read, that as of this time I haven’t decided if it’s made up or not, and there is no meaningful pressure behind it

Why would I waste my time doing something dreary like rebutting it instead of continuing to trip the light fantastic with my buds

I don't think anyone is expecting a lengthy rebuttal, but the snarky "you should know my playstyle by now" is pretty clear deflection from the point being made.

[MalcolmTucker]

Man, it’s not even sunny yet I’m getting all this shade

And I mean, you’re still not really answering the question — it’s one read, that as of this time I haven’t decided if it’s made up or not, and there is no meaningful pressure behind it

Why would I waste my time doing something dreary like rebutting it instead of continuing to trip the light fantastic with my buds

I don't think anyone is expecting a lengthy rebuttal, but the snarky "you should know my playstyle by now" is pretty clear deflection from the point being made.

do you have like other thoughts

Yes. I've said quite openly Klick/Monkey my main suspects so far based on their play.

[MalcolmTucker]

- I'm not really vibing with the wagon on monkeyman - to me it feels like he's getting voted for having weird or irrational opinions, not necessarily scum-motivated ones. The stuff he says might seem bizarre but I feel like he actually believes what he's saying. The pressure on him feels opportunistic in nature.

I can't speak for everyone who is voting him, but I don't think that's an accurate assessment of my scumread on him, at least. It's certainly not about his opinions. I think the way he responds to questioning is slimy. He has consistently made statements that appear confident, but when asked about where the basis of each statement is coming from, he has at times weakly defended it, or clearly made up a reason to justify it, or dodged the question, until finally usually coming back to say that the original statement was a joke or that it shouldn't be taken seriously. Saying that about an RVS vote is fine. But about reads made on page 20 of a game? And even if that is the case, why take the extra step of trying to justify it initially? The approach just feels scummy to me, like he cares more about his own appearances than about whatever it is he's saying.

I did feel a little hesitant, since he is the highest postcount player so far (mostly due to the pressure on him) and so maybe there's just more things to pick on, and maybe he would have been more likely to quiet down and let things blow over if he were scum.

I could see some of the votes like tictac sticking around from RVS being opportunistic. But that could always come from the opposite scum faction. I still like the chances of it being scum.

This is making me rethink a bit. Feel like Monkey has some suspect posts and a lot of stuff I don't really agree with, but not sure their approach so far is particularly conductive to someone who's mafia.

VOTE: Klick

Happier with my vote here for now.

[MalcolmTucker]

Flavour Leaf you have been very useless today, thank you.

This is true re Flavor but looking through your ISO I think you've had quite a lot of filler despite being one of the most active players so far. Lot of jokey stuff early on, few changed votes and lots of questions without substantive pushes as such.

[MalcolmTucker]

Flavour Leaf you have been very useless today, thank you.

This is true re Flavor but looking through your ISO I think you've had quite a lot of filler despite being one of the most active players so far. Lot of jokey stuff early on, few changed votes and lots of questions without substantive pushes as such.

I never claimed i would be better.

I'm not necessarily comparing your play to Flavor's, just noticed from an ISO scan you have a lot of posts that I'd argue can be classed as filler.

[MalcolmTucker]

This is probably an all scum hood. Sigh.

What is “this”?

FoS: MonkeyMan

I have to ask, why the FoS on monkeyman? Did you not want to move your vote off Save The Dragons, and if so, why not?

It looked like a slip but I wasn’t sure (the “this” felt out of place)
VOTE: monkeyman
Better place for my vote than StD currently

Out of interest, was your initial STD vote just an early gut feeling vibe type vote? I think they've looked townie so far.

[MalcolmTucker]

Alright, school's over, what'd I miss?

What if, instead of asking this, you read over what was posted since you

last

asked this, and then told us what you thought about it?

Going back - I've mostly found cassowary's play alright but this post feels oddly confrontational in an unnatural way. Cassowary, like me, said they were slightly aggrieved when they joined to see the high post count and the game has been moving quickly so far. Why the sudden snark when someone else casually asks for a catch-up?

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't like being on the same wagon as Tucker now that I think about it.

VOTE: MalcomTucker

Out of interest, what changed your mind re voting for me? A while back you seemed pretty comfortable with how I was playing, even when I was voting for you. Strikes me as a bit of an opportunistic vote here.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm looks like he's genuinely solving

uh

where?

Don't like the initial vote on monkey but although underexplained 418 is a start, and 491 to 648 looks like he's trying to actually analyze and figure out monkeyman rather than blindly pushing him. That kind of progression can be faked but monkeyman is still a wagon, could easily keep pushing it, instead forcing himself to give other thoughts. The immediate evaluation of Norwee unprompted in 653 looked like he saw someone and decided to investigate, like he's pulling at threads to see what comes out. And again similar where he digs up a cassowary post in 658 when it's not being discussed by anyone, and it's interesting, thoughtful analysis picking at someone's post. Not necessarily on board with a hypocrisy case but the reasoning feels more detailed than you typically get from noob-scum

For a newer player it's fairly decent, hasn't felt like he's making pushes in a dishonest way, and is looking for things to analyze. Don't get the hate? I get he annoyed you by pushing you but I don't think it looked ill intentioned.

This is fairly correct on my thinking so far - for what it's worth I've not been as proactive as I generally like to be in terms of making reads up until now but I sometimes struggle with forming particularly firm reads in D1, especially if the game is a bit patchy with no central or definitive conflicts that have emerged yet.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm still really unsure what to make of Monkey so far, their plays feels inconsistent and opportunistic at times but not sure their approach is conductive to scum wanting to stay hidden or under the radar.

[MalcolmTucker]

I tend to have hedgy posts early game because inevitably we're all working in the dark. I'll suggest ideas and possible theories but generally be pretty open on my uncertainties and possible contradictions to what I'm saying. Occasionally I'll identify a player who I really think is mafia and push strongly but I'm inevitably incorrect when I do so.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think CSF is quite townie for pointing the above out though given I know I'm town. Feels like a meta detail which wouldn't be worth bringing up for scum looking for a wagon to build.

[MalcolmTucker]

somehow I'm having flashbacks to my first mafia game, when I just walked into the thread and saw a bunch of things happening at once

that's this, again

Anyway, how's everyone's day going? I don't have much to do today, so I can actually have free time.

VOTE: catboi

honestly I don't know what happening but am choosing to go with it for the moment

arg how'd I miss this much with a simple shower god

can someone fill me in please

Can someone give me an update on what's happened while I was taking stupid mandatory testing?

Alright, school's over, what'd I miss?

Alright, school's over, what'd I miss?

What if, instead of asking this, you read over what was posted since you

last

asked this, and then told us what you thought about it?

He's not going to.

The general consensus is to vote me because I'm inactive, which is okay. I have PSSAs and can't play the 'catch-up' game when I'm in a room for two hours with no access to my phone to keep track of you people.

Looking through Sword's ISO, getting a bit of a townie vibe...I'm not sure self-conscious mafia would ask so many catch-up questions, other ways to post filler I think that are less likely to attract attention. Interested to see how they play going forward though.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yes, we have an idea right there. It's Malcolm.

Just read back and your main contention with me seems to be that I didn't go anywhere after initially shading you but I don't think that's a big issue here - I was pointing out that despite making a lot of posts you had a lot of filler content all the same, not as if I voted for you. Although your sudden suspicion of me afterwards, as you admit a proper conviction read, feels a little bit weird to me, and a bit of a desperate reason to be going after someone.

[MalcolmTucker]

Your contention seems to be either I should have left you alone or had to properly launch a conviction push on you, which seems a bit strange, and isn't really my style anyway as such.

[MalcolmTucker]

- I'm not really vibing with the wagon on monkeyman - to me it feels like he's getting voted for having weird or irrational opinions, not necessarily scum-motivated ones. The stuff he says might seem bizarre but I feel like he actually believes what he's saying. The pressure on him feels opportunistic in nature.

I can't speak for everyone who is voting him, but I don't think that's an accurate assessment of my scumread on him, at least. It's certainly not about his opinions. I think the way he responds to questioning is slimy. He has consistently made statements that appear confident, but when asked about where the basis of each statement is coming from, he has at times weakly defended it, or clearly made up a reason to justify it, or dodged the question, until finally usually coming back to say that the original statement was a joke or that it shouldn't be taken seriously. Saying that about an RVS vote is fine. But about reads made on page 20 of a game? And even if that is the case, why take the extra step of trying to justify it initially? The approach just feels scummy to me, like he cares more about his own appearances than about whatever it is he's saying.

I did feel a little hesitant, since he is the highest postcount player so far (mostly due to the pressure on him) and so maybe there's just more things to pick on, and maybe he would have been more likely to quiet down and let things blow over if he were scum.

I could see some of the votes like tictac sticking around from RVS being opportunistic. But that could always come from the opposite scum faction. I still like the chances of it being scum.

This is making me rethink a bit. Feel like Monkey has some suspect posts and a lot of stuff I don't really agree with, but not sure their approach so far is particularly conductive to someone who's mafia.

VOTE: Klick

Happier with my vote here for now.

hey malc, can you please explain a bit more what you meant by "not sure their approach so far is particularly conductive to someone who's mafia"?

also the reasons for the klick vote are those from 419 or was there anything else that made you decide to change your vote to there?

Generally I feel like Monkey is posting a lot in a way that's making themselves get noticed a lot more than would be ideal for mafia. Generally mafia want to blend in and avoid being noticed too much unless they're trying to sway town.

Reasoning for Klick was in 419 yes, although I'd mentioned suspecting them once or twice before that too.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: MalcolmTucker
One of my first somewhat convinced votes as they shaded me but then it seemed like they didn't go anywhere with it.

I’m pushing you in an very memey manner.
For you to describe it as desperate feels very false and discredity.

You described it as a "somewhat convinced" vote, and said that was one of your first. Where am I supposed to deduce that as being memey?

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't like being on the same wagon as Tucker now that I think about it.

VOTE: MalcomTucker

Out of interest, what changed your mind re voting for me? A while back you seemed pretty comfortable with how I was playing, even when I was voting for you. Strikes me as a bit of an opportunistic vote here.

You seem to think anyone voting for you is opportunistic.

I explained my reasoning and you can take me at my word, there is no hidden motive.

That isn't true at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

1 Generally mafia want to blend in and avoid being noticed too much unless they're trying to sway town.

Reasoning for Klick was in 419 yes, although 2 I'd mentioned suspecting them once or twice before that too.

(1) why do you think this?

(2) you hadn't, actually

Re 1 - It's obviously not universal and sometimes mafia just make mistakes and end up blundering, but it's a pretty common feature of the game for scum players to want to blend in simply because it can help them avoid suspicion. The goal of the game for everyone in the day phases as an individual is to avoid being voted out, blending in as town is what allows mafia to do that. When evaluating how a player approaches the game, if they've come under pressure, one thing I'll look at is whether their play from thereon in is how I'd expect mafia to play in similar circumstances. I don't think Monkey has particularly tried to do anything major to dissuade the heat on them.

Re 2 - apologies, I'm getting mixed up post numbers wise there and was confusing it with my vote. You're correct that 419 was first time I talked about suspecting Klick. Mentioned this once or twice after before eventually changing my vote.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: MalcolmTucker
One of my first somewhat convinced votes as they shaded me but then it seemed like they didn't go anywhere with it.

I’m pushing you in an very memey manner.
For you to describe it as desperate feels very false and discredity.

You described it as a "somewhat convinced" vote, and said that was one of your first. Where am I supposed to deduce that as being memey?

I can both be convinced about my vote and push it as an memey manner.

I personally didn't see anything within your posts to indicate that it was anything other than a standard post. The "meme" aspect here just seems to be a bit of a cover for what you admit is a genuine and sincere read. Or, to put it better, why should I be at all concerned or interested in the memeyness of the push when it's still a push from you all the same? Either you suspect a player as mafia or you don't. You clearly suspect you, on what I'd argue is a pretty flimsy basis.

[MalcolmTucker]

*You clearly suspect me, lost the inability to type.

[MalcolmTucker]

You’re sorta misrepping here Malcolm.

I’m not covering anything. In fact i’m quite open about my motivations.
I think you could be scum so i’m encouraging votes on you both as the possibility to flip scum and to get information from the game, and also you.
Maybe you’d towntell? Maybe not.
Is the reasoning flimsy? I’d say it’s good enough for day 1.
Do you have an super strong scumread or do you think i should be reading you differently?

In what way? You say your push on me was memey. How was I particularly supposed to know that over text?

[MalcolmTucker]

Sure

VOTE: malc

This was a really lazy vote from Menalque as well after I asked a pretty basic question.

[MalcolmTucker]

Sure

VOTE: malc

This was a really lazy vote from Menalque as well after I asked a pretty basic question.

what makes it a lazy vote, amigo?

I asked why you'd deflect instead of replying to points against you. Then you replied with a vote on me.

[MalcolmTucker]

Re your 846 Butter - yeah I think Melanque's vote on me was a bit weird since it came out of nowhere but their general questioning has been perfectly reasonable.

Norwegian's approach definitely struck me as a bit more off - initially pulling back from the supposed seriousness of their push while then reversing on that again, because if they played it off as solely memey, they'd essentially be arguing that their most conviction-based push off the game so far wasn't actually a proper read, after I'd already called them out for posting a lot of filler.

[MalcolmTucker]

You can vote opportunistically with zero people voting for you, so that seems kinda irrelevant

That was the implication though. I'm not worried about how my vote looks, i'm worried about voting for scum.

You hadn't particularly been reading me as scum before that though. The opportunism could be coming less from fear you'll be eliminated and more from opportunistic scum perhaps seeing an opportunity to eliminate someone they believe belongs to another faction.

In fact that's probably an important detail to consider when we're pushing here - if you have multiple factions then it's perfectly possible for scum to mask themselves as town with genuine and believable pushes on other players they believe to be scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

You can vote opportunistically with zero people voting for you, so that seems kinda irrelevant

That was the implication though. I'm not worried about how my vote looks, i'm worried about voting for scum.

You hadn't particularly been reading me as scum before that though. The opportunism could be coming less from fear you'll be eliminated and more from opportunistic scum perhaps seeing an opportunity to eliminate someone they believe belongs to another faction.

In fact that's probably an important detail to consider when we're pushing here - if you have multiple factions then it's perfectly possible for scum to mask themselves as town with genuine and believable pushes on other players they believe to be scum.

It's possible, but I don't think you can use the multiball setup to save yourself here. I trust Norway more than you at this point.

I was suspecting you anyways after you went from voting me to agreeing with me in a blink of an eye.

So you can try to deflect the pressure against you by coming up with baseless arguments against me but I don't think it will work and you seem even scummier than before in my book.

This isn't an accurate representation of what I've thought of you at all. My general view is you've looked quite scummy so far but I'm not sure your play has been particularly conductive to someone who'd be scum, so it's making me wary of whether you might actually just be town. I feel like my progression on this has been pretty clear so far. I can't remember agreeing with you all that much previously but you can feel free to correct me. And if we did agree then it may have been on a single point...but that's different to agreeing with you 'in the blink of an eye' which implies I suddenly TR you and trust you on everything.

[MalcolmTucker]

Re your 846 Butter - yeah I think Melanque's vote on me was a bit weird since it came out of nowhere but their general questioning has been perfectly reasonable.

Norwegian's approach definitely struck me as a bit more off - initially pulling back from the supposed seriousness of their push while then reversing on that again, because if they played it off as solely memey, they'd essentially be arguing that their most conviction-based push off the game so far wasn't actually a proper read, after I'd already called them out for posting a lot of filler.

Lol what.
I’ve never reversed on anything.
All along i’ve basically said the same thing. I’m suspecting you for an semi-serious reason, but used light-hearted lobbying to get votes on you so this game won’t stagnate and we get an proper alternative to Monkey wagon.

I said I felt your vote was a bit desperate and not based on anything strong. You said that didn't matter because it was memey. Then you said the read actually is quite a strong, conviction-based one anyway...which completely undermines the nature of a light-hearted push. A push fundamentally is just not that light-hearted if you think someone is mafia, you're clearly playing with some intent there but your approach has been contradictory at times.

[MalcolmTucker]

I’ve been transparent the whole way but you’re still explaining away my play as "off" and such to shade me and it does not make me feel better about you when you constantly try to portray someone that votes you in as bad of an light as possible. That makes me think you don’t actually want to sort me but just try to accuse me and see what sticks.

That isn't how I've played though. STD has voted for me but I think they are town. Melanque voted for me but I've said openly I think their questioning of me was perfectly reasonable in how they went about it. Monkey has voted me but I've said I'm unsure on how I read them because while I think they're scummy to a degree I don't think they're playing in a way that isn't particularly mafia-like.

[MalcolmTucker]

Re your 846 Butter - yeah I think Melanque's vote on me was a bit weird since it came out of nowhere but their general questioning has been perfectly reasonable.

Norwegian's approach definitely struck me as a bit more off - initially pulling back from the supposed seriousness of their push while then reversing on that again, because if they played it off as solely memey, they'd essentially be arguing that their most conviction-based push off the game so far wasn't actually a proper read, after I'd already called them out for posting a lot of filler.

Lol what.
I’ve never reversed on anything.
All along i’ve basically said the same thing. I’m suspecting you for an semi-serious reason, but used light-hearted lobbying to get votes on you so this game won’t stagnate and we get an proper alternative to Monkey wagon.

I said I felt your vote was a bit desperate and not based on anything strong. You said that didn't matter because it was memey. Then you said the read actually is quite a strong, conviction-based one anyway...which completely undermines the nature of a light-hearted push. A push fundamentally is just not that light-hearted if you think someone is mafia, you're clearly playing with some intent there but your approach has been contradictory at times.

You’re completely making up an narrative and that’s making it hard for me to take your arguments seriously.

Why don't you actually respond to the points I've made in my post instead of deflecting? Your reason for trying to start a wagon on me was clearly contradictory and you expected me to pick up that you were "memeing" by starting a wagon on me even though you also suspect me anyway.

[MalcolmTucker]

Oops...I shall not do that again. And if I do you may call me Malcom as much as you like.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm finding it a lot easier to TR players in this game than SR them despite the high scum count between different teams.

I'm liking Flavor's approach here and think they are town. I don't necessarily agree Catboi is mafia, and I thought Wallflower came out far worse in their exchange, but I do think there's a solid point made that Catboi may have seen it as easier to go after Wallflower than anyone else on their wagon.

CSF reads as town to me, and I'm generally agreeing with pretty much everything Butterchurn is posting.

I'm not hating the idea of Norwegian as possible mafia here, feel like there's been a mix of filler and no real major pushes despite their attempt to get a wagon going on me which then faded away.

[MalcolmTucker]

Reading through Wallflower's big post and to be honest none of it is really convincing me they are town. Ultimately despite their suspicions they are still very much hedging their bets on the slot, and some of their pros for Catboi being mafia are not particularly strong to me.

They criticise Catboi's 1184 for example by bringing up TB since they'd backed out - but from my POV I found that helpful because it very much clarified why TB had approached the game in the way they did, and will influence how I approach their slot going forward. It was a solid +1 town for me when I read it and strikes me as a complete reach to suspect someone as mafia.

Maybe I'm just too wary of getting sucked in by big posts that look like major townie effort but there's no reason it can't come from mafia. Especially when one of Catboi's main criticisms had been that Wallflower's suspicion of them was too vague.

I'll vote here for now.

VOTE: Wallflower

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm liking Flavor's approach here

hmm

what do you like about FL's approach? be specific

Much as I suspect Wallflower, I felt their point that Catboi could have been potentially trying to go after Wallflower because they viewed it as the easiest target on their bandwagon was insightful, as an example.

Beyond that I think they're playing well and working to solve without being too tunnelled on any one player. Plenty of time for that to change since it's D1 but they're in my town pile for now.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm surprised, because most newer players tend to hate the way FL plays and want to murderise him for it

This is like my third game now with Flavor so I have a decent bit of experience playing with them. They miselimmed me once but I try to never take the game too personally.

[MalcolmTucker]

I kinda agree with both STD and Butter here. I agree Monkey looks incredibly scummy and their voting pattern has been really poor - it feels a little bit too obvious to be scum at times though, if you've been accused of opportunistically joining bandwagons on D1 and that's getting you votes, I think you'd eventually stop doing so at some point. In a smaller game with one mafia team I'd be more confident of a TR, but the multi-team setup obviously does make me wonder a bit more if he's just playing the way he is because it's how he always plays and he doesn't want to switch it up.

[MalcolmTucker]

Quite frankly, there are 9 scum in the game so jumping on a few wagons is pro town and not pro scum.

I think this misrepresents why people like Butter are frustrated by your approach and believe it to be indicative of mafia though. You continually join bandwagons but I don't think you consistently push any of them all that strongly. It's fine to move about on D1 but it looks weird when you aren't actually doing much with said movement.

[MalcolmTucker]

To elaborate on the above, I also find it quite suspicious that Monkey is trying to use their wagon jumping as a pro-town point: if I'm writing them off as mafia a bit due to their playstyle, then it appears they're wanting to foster a view among the wider town that they are town even if their approach itself appears mafia indicative, if that makes sense.

[MalcolmTucker]

Caught up on the past day or so.

I've not read Bnuuy's ISO, and hadn't had too many thoughts on the slot so far, but I don't like how that wagon developed and then faded away again so quickly.

I don't think Menalque was particularly scummy for pushing it. Their belief in the slot being scum was genuine and consistent, as was their initial insistence afterwards.

Not keen on how eagerly Flavor went from viewing the vote as a compromise to being willing to join the wagon, to then backing off again pretty quickly. I think it's perfectly possible they did actually think Bnuuy's response was frustrated townie (I did too) and felt like a continued push there wouldn't be a good idea. But I find their joining the wagon interesting given they criticised Catboi pushing Wallflower on the basis it might be an "easy" elimination/push. Could Flavor's approach here not be seen as quite similar?

By the same token though, I wasn't too keen on Catboi's equal willingness to join the wagon before then backing off again. Felt quite opportunistic and was a useful way to get the heat on them to die down a bit, while perhaps agreeing a bit more with players they'd clashed with a bit.

Mastina's suggestion that Butterchurn is mafia masking as town well was interesting and as someone who's TR'd Butterchurn, I'm aware I can easily be drawn in by level-headed players with a very clean and analytical style because that's generally how I like to approach the game (albeit I don't tend to do it all that well). But until Mastina posts any evidence of this I feel like their accusations are quite vague and not fully-formed enough. I've certainly not seen it so far. I also think Mastina's push could potentially be a clever scum tactic insofar as Butter doesn't necessarily look like the sort of push mafia would make given they won't get eliminated this turn...but there's also inherently nothing wrong with going there either because Butter's not been cleared and if Mastina is scum, it allows them to appear as if they're coming up with independent and original thoughts.

I also think Monkey is very townie at this point. I disagree with plenty they say but I feel like they don't give a shit about how their reads/progressions look in a way that's much more likely to come from town than scum, especially in a larger game where it's technically easier for scum to appear townie by genuinely suspecting other mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

whoa TB was pooky? I guess that doesn't surprise me given the typing style, but pooky felt mean this game Contrary to what other people have said, that actually feels a bit out of character given my experience with him

yea

more specifically, i felt TB vs leaf was an overdramatic and artificial argument about stuff that wasn't at all related to this game and not at all aimed at yeeting either of them.
in other words, it looked like svs to me, tho more strongly so from TB side of things.
VOTE: TB

This was a weird post from tictac. Voting for a player who's no longer in the game, and asserting the argument between Flavor/TB was staged (surely was not the case). But it feels like a very weak argument to be coming from scum to me.

[MalcolmTucker]

Honestly, if we vote Bnuuy, Norwegian, then the Bnuuy wagon is gonna be seen as being built up super fast.

Cheers for context. I dunno, I found the progression odd and it's not as if Bnuuy was exactly on the verge of going out given the size of the game. But I'm also unsure where you'd have particularly benefited from jumping onto the wagon and then jumping off it quickly if you were scum too.

[MalcolmTucker]

It looks like you are switzerland in World War II, which isn't the morally correct position.

You have a way with words my friend. Your style is kinda growing on me.

[MalcolmTucker]

I do think Sword is town here though.

[MalcolmTucker]

Part of me wants to try to go for the Beloved Princess, and then just have a double night before scum get any info, and then just have a double night.

Yeah this does not read like something posted for here unless I'm missing something? Why would say in advance you "might" try and claim something?

[MalcolmTucker]

Part of me wants to try to go for the Beloved Princess, and then just have a double night before scum get any info, and then just have a double night.

Yeah this does not read like something posted for here unless I'm missing something? Why would say in advance you "might" try and claim something?

It reads to me like something FL would post here.

Could be a style thing I guess, just feels odd to announce your intention openly that you might claim.

[MalcolmTucker]

Okay I am then lol. I thought for a moment they were thinking about claiming the role which would have been a bizarre approach.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah, I read that as him saying that Day 1 could actually be the most beneficial time to eliminate a Beloved Princess, because there are the maximum amount of town role actions available. So, I guess the risk is mitigated if she is a town Beloved Princess, and there's also a good chance of her just being scum. I'm not really sure how accurate that is, but I did have a thought along those lines as well.

there's also little to no other claims out there, so scum can't PR snipe well, so it's just mowing down people.

Scum can also choose not to kill because they only to kill 2 times in each 3 phases.

On this, do we reckon all scum teams kill tonight? I'd initially expect so since it's D1 and the game is still big enough that you can probably eliminate someone as scum and get away with it without people making obvious associatives. But then it obviously gets trickier further down the line once role player are perhaps revealed - if you don't have a kill, you risk them being able to live another day.

[MalcolmTucker]

Why is Titus town tho?

Has the perfect storm of Titus town things;
1: It's D1, I can afford to call her town because statistically speaking even in a multiball game with more scum than normal there's still more town than not so I'll be right more often than I'm wrong, and Titus is someone who, if I am not actually scumreading her, I don't really want to push on D1 so I'll just townread her on principle

2: People are calling Titus scum, which is an indicator that she's not

3: She's got the unique combination of solving, but not solving TOO much, and having some insights but nothing TOO insightful, and having moonlogic but not TOO much moonlogic

4: She's in a hydra and tbh this feels like Titus-town-hydra to me

5: Gut.

While we're on Mastina, reading through their ISO and this feels like a really weak town read. Only no3 approaches any sort of proper detail or goes into specifics at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah, I read that as him saying that Day 1 could actually be the most beneficial time to eliminate a Beloved Princess, because there are the maximum amount of town role actions available. So, I guess the risk is mitigated if she is a town Beloved Princess, and there's also a good chance of her just being scum. I'm not really sure how accurate that is, but I did have a thought along those lines as well.

there's also little to no other claims out there, so scum can't PR snipe well, so it's just mowing down people.

Scum can also choose not to kill because they only to kill 2 times in each 3 phases.

On this, do we reckon all scum teams kill tonight? I'd initially expect so since it's D1 and the game is still big enough that you can probably eliminate someone as scum and get away with it without people making obvious associatives. But then it obviously gets trickier further down the line once role player are perhaps revealed - if you don't have a kill, you risk them being able to live another day.

i agree. going Mastina, if they are actually town BP, opens up a lot of bloodshed, but it's more of a matter of does the bloodshed matter. scum can hit possible scum anyways. And if Mastina is scum, they're just scum.

The double night is always gonna feel drastic, though, but there's also the possibility that scum kill Mastina if she's on the right track ever, but not looking likely based on her weak reasonings, so either way.

Catboi still my preferred.

I'm personally not in favour of Mastina for now - not entirely keen on their read on Butter without more detail being put to that and I feel like their read of you is not entirely honest either.

On Catboi...I think I'm 50/50. Very much didn't get the scum reads initially but didn't like their approach to the Bnuuy wagon at all. Felt like a very useful way to potentially get some pressure off them.

[MalcolmTucker]

Looking over Mastina's last game I can see she is an extremely high content poster and contributed to her towns win as a Town Mason. I am not comfortable with eliming her as a claimed BP. Based on the claim she is the player I would last like to see eliminated. In fact anyone proposing her elimination I am extremely suspicious of now that I think about it.

Monkey, where do you stand re this given recent pushes on Mastina? I'm unsure on the slot but I don't think your post here is entirely unreasonable, however unsure if you've changed since you don't appear to be pushing particularly hard on players you initially thought would have been scummy for pushing Mastina at all D1.

[MalcolmTucker]

Reading through their ISO and I am really, really split on Cassowary.

On the one hand, I like their posts as a rule - not too confrontational as such but the logic is mostly solid.

They TR'd me at a time when it would have been easy and opportunistic for them to hop onto a wagon.

Their suspicion of Monkey felt perfectly reasonable at the time and similarly to me they have progressed on the slot as the game has gone on. They've pushed the slot a bit but not gotten too hyper-focused on it either.

And the fact they have TR'd Sword early on to a degree gives me an indication they're not just opportunistically pushing slots for easy eliminations.

But by the same token...given the multiball setup, it also feels like they're employing a fairly cautious and careful style that allows them to scumhunt in a way that helps them avoid any suspicion while perhaps managing to be subtle mafia. Their post count is fairly thin so far and in terms of pushes they've not done much beyond going for Monkey a bit before backing out and tentatively - but still not really - pushing Flavor a little bit.

[MalcolmTucker]

Reading back I'd be surprised if Mastina/Nashville are aligned. Nashville saying they don't necessarily believe the claim but don't think it's scummy feels like an incredibly weird way for a teammate to try and defend another teammate...easier to just openly believe the claim.

If Mastina is town, perfectly feasible Nashville could be taking a punt on Mastina not being on the other team and viewing it as a good chance to try and build some town-cred going forward. In fact if Mastina is town I'd be very surprised if no scum attempt to do this. Obviously scum can't definitively know Mastina isn't rival scum but the odds drop significantly if Mastina isn't in one of their teams, statistically speaking.

[MalcolmTucker]

Reading through their ISO and I am really, really split on Cassowary.

On the one hand, I like their posts as a rule - not too confrontational as such but the logic is mostly solid.

They TR'd me at a time when it would have been easy and opportunistic for them to hop onto a wagon.

Their suspicion of Monkey felt perfectly reasonable at the time and similarly to me they have progressed on the slot as the game has gone on. They've pushed the slot a bit but not gotten too hyper-focused on it either.

And the fact they have TR'd Sword early on to a degree gives me an indication they're not just opportunistically pushing slots for easy eliminations.

But by the same token...given the multiball setup, it also feels like they're employing a fairly cautious and careful style that allows them to scumhunt in a way that helps them avoid any suspicion while perhaps managing to be subtle mafia. Their post count is fairly thin so far and in terms of pushes they've not done much beyond going for Monkey a bit before backing out and tentatively - but still not really - pushing Flavor a little bit.

like this doesn't say anything it just makes him look like that he's putting in work

Reading back I'd be surprised if Mastina/Nashville are aligned. Nashville saying they don't necessarily believe the claim but don't think it's scummy feels like an incredibly weird way for a teammate to try and defend another teammate...easier to just openly believe the claim.

If Mastina is town, perfectly feasible Nashville could be taking a punt on Mastina not being on the other team and viewing it as a good chance to try and build some town-cred going forward. In fact if Mastina is town I'd be very surprised if no scum attempt to do this. Obviously scum can't definitively know Mastina isn't rival scum but the odds drop significantly if Mastina isn't in one of their teams, statistically speaking.

like this doesn't really say much again a random toothless comment that makes it look like he's putting in work

I feel like my post on Cassowary says plenty - I outline clearly the reasons why I both TR them and SR them. It's not a particularly attacking post but then you'll be aware I tend not to play like that. If I'm uncertain on a player I'll generally set out both sides of the argument. Cassowary has been a tough player to figure out and my post was put out there as an attempt to help gauge what other players think of a slot that's seen somewhat limited discussion so far.

I feel like my Mastina/Nashville comment is perfectly clear too. I say I don't think they are both aligned together given game content so far. Since others have suggested that's a possibility, that's a deliberate read. I'm not sure what more you're wanting from me here beyond really attacking posts?

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm very wary of Flavor at the moment but I don't think the way they are approaching the game is particularly out of the realm as to how they'd approach it as town from the game where they miselimmed me. I feel like Flavor typically picks up on strong narratives and possible associations and likes to push them a good bit, and if they're in the wrong it can obviously be very frustrating but I don't think their approach at the moment is inherently scummy in that regard.

[MalcolmTucker]

i don't know malcolm you just don't feel like i've seen you and i can't really describe it.

the cassowary post stands out because it's something scum could easily hedge with and go either direction with in the future, if cassowary finds herself under suspicion then you can jump on it or defend depending on what would work better

I feel like I wasn't really myself early game - I do often struggle for reads a bit but felt very thin on the ground after my initial catch-up. But I feel like my Cassowary post is pretty much basic town from my POV as to how I play - outline a case for why a player might be X alignment, but then outline a potentially opposite stance for why my initial bit could be wrong. I get this may be frustrating as it can be vague at times but it's perfectly in-line with my thinking as town most of the time.

If I made that post about, say, Monkey for example, I could maybe get where you're coming from because Monkey's had lots of different reads on them from all sorts of angles...but Cassowary hasn't had a lot of attention heaped on them up until now, and I was basically doing some ISO checks to formulate thoughts on some players I'd not really formed an opinion on so far.

[MalcolmTucker]

i don't know malcolm you just don't feel like i've seen you and i can't really describe it.

the cassowary post stands out because it's something scum could easily hedge with and go either direction with in the future, if cassowary finds herself under suspicion then you can jump on it or defend depending on what would work better

I feel like I wasn't really myself early game - I do often struggle for reads a bit but felt very thin on the ground after my initial catch-up. But I feel like my Cassowary post is pretty much basic town from my POV as to how I play - outline a case for why a player might be X alignment, but then outline a potentially opposite stance for why my initial bit could be wrong. I get this may be frustrating as it can be vague at times but it's perfectly in-line with my thinking as town most of the time.

If I made that post about, say, Monkey for example, I could maybe get where you're coming from because Monkey's had lots of different reads on them from all sorts of angles...but Cassowary hasn't had a lot of attention heaped on them up until now, and I was basically doing some ISO checks to formulate thoughts on some players I'd not really formed an opinion on so far.

gun to head what is cassowary town or scum?

Gun to head? Town. I feel like my initial post makes it clear I think their approach so far has been quite townie, which is partially what is making me suspicious, because catching scum is going to be difficult this game and I'm trying not to just plop for easy or basic choices.

[MalcolmTucker]

What is going on.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm slightly confused here...players from any alignment can typically be in a neighbourhood no? Well Done could hypothetically read you as scum while also knowing you're in a neighbourhood with someone else, STD or otherwise, unless I've read the rules wrong.

[MalcolmTucker]

Fundamentally I'm just not getting what the secrecy is all relating to here.

[MalcolmTucker]

i think hounding monkeyman over the blurred line of what is 'null' and what is 'needs more info' is nitpicking a little

Incorrect. Separating null from lack of info indicates that there's enough to form coherent thoughts. Yet here Monkey can't give even flimsy reasons why there's null versus lack of info, which suggests it's forced/fabricated.

VOTE: Monkey

This was Nashville's last vote.

Nashville wasn't responding negatively to me at all, if anything I think they were responding positively in the sense that they think I'm caught in a tunnel, and trying to help me get out of it.


Defending Catboi does not equal scum reading.

You are actively twisting the narrative here.

They did in 1328 and 1330

Is this an active scumread though? Someone can tunnel a player without being scum. Townies do stuff like this all the time when they become uber-focused on a slot. Flavor has done this to me when we were both town. It feels like they're unhappy with Flavor's play here but not to a degree where they are really pushing him as scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

I’m not convinced this FL/WD fight will be anymore helpful for my reads than it already has.
Well good thing i’m going to sleep.

Indeed, feel like we'll wake up to 10 pages in the morning and be none the wiser.

[MalcolmTucker]

Anyway I feel like Well Done's argument here is a bit inconsistent. As has been pointed out Nashville has barely if even properly scum-read Flavor. And Flavor's reverse read on Well Done starts to seem reasonable if they are town and believe this read is in fundamentally bad faith.

The manipulating the gamestate argument also feels a bit vague and thin on the ground too. Flavor is clearly an active player and evidently wants to steer the direction of the game irrespective of their alignment. I don't think they are scummy for trying to form narrative, it's just how they play and while they will sometimes miss it can be helpful if they are town.

My only issue re SR'ing Well Done is I'm not sure this is necessarily a fight scum wants to pick at this point...Flavor is unlikely to be eliminated D1 I'd say and it very much puts Well Done in the spotlight.

[MalcolmTucker]

I’m not convinced this FL/WD fight will be anymore helpful for my reads than it already has.
Well good thing i’m going to sleep.

Indeed, feel like we'll wake up to 10 pages in the morning and be none the wiser.

What do you think we should do?

Oh I think you're perfectly entitled to push and I hope something will come of it in terms of useful info for the game...just feels like some of the arguments/talking points are already starting to go round in circles here.

[MalcolmTucker]

it's just how they play and while they will sometimes miss it can be helpful if they are town.

I really just want you to see the difference in my town game late into the game

I'm much stronger town late into the game. But I do have a tendency to get warlocked by scum.

But like Knuckles in Sonic 3 and Knuckles, i'll eventually punch the Eggman.

As I say I'm far from fully convinced you are town, it's just "Flavor is manipulating the gamestate" feels like a bit of a weak read from Well Done insofar as it's not just what you do, but what I'd argue any player who is posting more than everyone else ends up doing to some degree presuming they are posting actual content. The goal of mafia is to some degree manipulation in that even town spend their time trying to get other people to agree with them on something they generally inherently can't be certain about.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm increasingly of the view that Well Done v Flavor might end up being town vs town. I made this point briefly yesterday but Catboi expanded on it in a better way in their catch-up - I'm not sure Well Done pushes Flavor this strongly D1 because it's a risky move and if it backfires as scum then they end up looking quite poor for it and risk elimination. I don't think the push itself is particularly great despite a lot of lengthy posts; I feel it takes aspects of Flavor's game that could easily be town and twists them to suit a tunnelled narrative, but that can come from determined town, or just town wanting to put a player under solid pressure.

Flavor's response is mixed - some fair points mixed with a lot of frustration. Personally I initially disliked the way they seemed to be continually swaying on Well Done - voting and wanting to fade them before backing off, and then reversing on that again, but I'm not sure that comes from scum in this setup. If Flavor is scum then they can push Well Done either way; if Well Done is eliminated and they're town Flavor can just say it was an honest push based on what they felt was a dishonest read, but if Well Done is town it's a good scumhunting effort. Flavor's uncertainty gives me the impression they are frustrated town.

I think Catboi's catch-up is good and also feels quite town. The pressure on them had died down a bit so they weren't in a desperate position where they had to hyper-post to try and take control of the game. Their reads fundamentally look quite solid to me at the moment.

[MalcolmTucker]

Also i think there are multiple layers to consider.
If you are a scum hydra it is automatically going to be more tiring. You need to log in as your new account. Juggle between scum PT. Communicate with hydra, plan with your scum partners, keep up on the game.
Disinterest is in fact a pretty powerful tell when it comes to hydras in particular.

I've not really dealt with hydras in a game before but could this not also apply to town? Surely if you're signing up as a hydra there's an implicit knowledge you could end up as scum since it's hardly uncommon, especially in a setup like this? It doesn't appear to be affecting WD's play at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

i think i'd still lim malcolm if given the opportunity

Reading through their ISO and I am really, really split on Cassowary.

On the one hand, I like their posts as a rule - not too confrontational as such but the logic is mostly solid.

They TR'd me at a time when it would have been easy and opportunistic for them to hop onto a wagon.

Their suspicion of Monkey felt perfectly reasonable at the time and similarly to me they have progressed on the slot as the game has gone on. They've pushed the slot a bit but not gotten too hyper-focused on it either.

And the fact they have TR'd Sword early on to a degree gives me an indication they're not just opportunistically pushing slots for easy eliminations.

But by the same token...given the multiball setup, it also feels like they're employing a fairly cautious and careful style that allows them to scumhunt in a way that helps them avoid any suspicion while perhaps managing to be subtle mafia. Their post count is fairly thin so far and in terms of pushes they've not done much beyond going for Monkey a bit before backing out and tentatively - but still not really - pushing Flavor a little bit.

like this doesn't say anything it just makes him look like that he's putting in work

Reading back I'd be surprised if Mastina/Nashville are aligned. Nashville saying they don't necessarily believe the claim but don't think it's scummy feels like an incredibly weird way for a teammate to try and defend another teammate...easier to just openly believe the claim.

If Mastina is town, perfectly feasible Nashville could be taking a punt on Mastina not being on the other team and viewing it as a good chance to try and build some town-cred going forward. In fact if Mastina is town I'd be very surprised if no scum attempt to do this. Obviously scum can't definitively know Mastina isn't rival scum but the odds drop significantly if Mastina isn't in one of their teams, statistically speaking.

like this doesn't really say much again a random toothless comment that makes it look like he's putting in work

Eh, no, I feel like the analysis is coming from a legitimate place even if it's fairly inconclusive, guy just bleeds town with what he's doing, looking all over the place, having takes on everything, reads are evolving and he's considering new angles. You might feel like the cassowary pos is busywork but it'd be just as easy for scum to NOT say anything there, guy feels like he's legitimately trying to solve the game. I think someone mentioned him being hedgy in other games? I might read some of his other games to check but I really don't think Malcolm is likely to be scum here.

This is a pretty accurate summary from Catboi of how I've been approaching the game so far and how I tend to approach the game in general to a degree. Part of my logic is in a big setup like this it's very easy for players to casually slip through the net by being relatively quiet, especially when you have high-intensity exchanges going on between the regular posters.

Also - I tend not to be too committal with my reads D1 because ultimately I'm in a position where I'm uninformed town and it'd be fundamentally dishonest of me to say right now I'm anywhere near absolutely confident of anyone's likelihood to turn out as mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

let's just try our luck with the beloved princess and see what crazy stuff happens over night.

VOTE: Mastina

Also, again, ridiculously sketchy, coming right after Wallflower expressed doubt on mastina in 2180 and Toogeloo had expressed a willingness to vote momentum. It looks like potentially he's hoping to seize on the momentum to eliminate a beloved princess and get an advantage off that

I really don't like this either but I'm again unsure how scummy it is. Flavor's now under a bit of pressure and if Mastina were to get eliminated (I don't think it happens this turn) and is town then I don't think Flavor survives D2.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm going to make a nice little call out now.

Every single one of you who wants to take on the lurker and inactive slots, cheat yourselves a Bozo the Clown.

Because this game is very much dominated by clowns.

399, 204, 193, 177, 157, 156, 149.
Then its 99, 85, 81, 77, 73, 62, 60, 57, 40, 36, 31 - some of who are being called out as inactive coaster slots.

Ever thought they just don't want to drege through The Dross that is most of the posts from those top tier posters?

this is a really weird callout if you didn't actually mean anything by it

It's a completely nothing post I agree. Some of the arguments so far have been overdrawn and overlong but there's nothing wrong with pointing out some scum will almost certainly be lurking and avoiding attention a bit. For example, Catboi made a fair point that scum Well Done probably stays away from accusing Flavor. If they'd done so they'd have a much lower post count.

[MalcolmTucker]

let's just try our luck with the beloved princess and see what crazy stuff happens over night.

VOTE: Mastina

Also, again, ridiculously sketchy, coming right after Wallflower expressed doubt on mastina in 2180 and Toogeloo had expressed a willingness to vote momentum. It looks like potentially he's hoping to seize on the momentum to eliminate a beloved princess and get an advantage off that

I really don't like this either but I'm again unsure how scummy it is. Flavor's now under a bit of pressure and if Mastina were to get eliminated (I don't think it happens this turn) and is town then I don't think Flavor survives D2.

I actually think it's one of the scummiest things he's done. You don't know about this since you're new, but Flavor Leaf is a player who likes to brag about talking his way out of hard guilties as scum on multiple occasions. He also tried to get a mason voted out in a game, simply as a challenge to himself to say he did it. Attempting to push through something as obviously antitown as a Day 1 Beloved Princess elim and then talk his way out of it is something he'd absolutely relish doing. I think the way he's going about it is scummy.

I've played with Flavor a bit now so know they have a somewhat unconventional style. I suppose it depends how they are approaching the game but I'm willing to at least on D1 play with the presumption that they are aproaching the game in a way that'd be beneficial to their chances of winning irrespective of their alignment. I don't think trying to eliminate Mastina would work from that POV because we'd absolutely eliminate Flavor on D2, especially with you and Well Done now both convinced Flavor is scum.

[MalcolmTucker]

catboi (5) | Tracer Bullet, MegAzumarill, Toogeloo, MonkeyMan576, Flavor Leaf

Lol what a wagon

Not to get too bogged down on activity but I reckon there's an opportunistic quiet scum somewhere in there. Meg or Toogeloo possibly.

[MalcolmTucker]

Not liking the automatic shade that seems to be getting dished out for quieter players being suspected/being suggested as possible wagons. Quite frankly I'd rather we force some lurkers to do some actual work and defend themselves instead of the same arguments that don't appear to be convincing anybody rolling on page after page.

[MalcolmTucker]

That's not directed at any one post - just generally some of the comments (mostly by Keeper) that have been getting thrown around on recent pages.

[MalcolmTucker]

Not liking the automatic shade that seems to be getting dished out for quieter players being suspected/being suggested as possible wagons. Quite frankly I'd rather we force some lurkers to do some actual work and defend themselves instead of the same arguments that don't appear to be convincing anybody rolling on page after page.

I agree, I thought the Nashville Dreams wagon was being somewhat discredited in this manner.

I get it would be lazy for us to just casually settle on a low poster slot but the point is that if you drive up a slot said player is forced to respond and it gives us more info about them. While I was uneasy with the Bnuuy wagon in retrospect it gave us a useful insight into their play and made them look more townie. In a game this large other potential scum shouldn't be able to just coast by. Anyone who's overly protective of such slots is immediately suspicious to me here.

[MalcolmTucker]

Poor newbies underestimating the scum game of a guy whose schtick is that he likes to talk about how good he is as scum

Yeah I'm going to be honest Catboi, these posts do not help at all, and the same goes for Flavor when they're making similar posts. I don't claim to be an expert at this game nor even particularly good at it, but we have no reason to blindly trust you on this, and posts like this feel designed to make players (I presume Butter above) doubt their reads not for inherently being inaccurate or bad but for failing to understand complex meta dynamics only experienced players can get. Essentially going by this logic it's somewhat impossible for a player who hasn't played with Flavor to town read them and only your read (or the reads of others who agree with you) can be accurate.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm going to make a nice little call out now.

Every single one of you who wants to take on the lurker and inactive slots, cheat yourselves a Bozo the Clown.

Because this game is very much dominated by clowns.

399, 204, 193, 177, 157, 156, 149.
Then its 99, 85, 81, 77, 73, 62, 60, 57, 40, 36, 31 - some of who are being called out as inactive coaster slots.

Ever thought they just don't want to drege through The Dross that is most of the posts from those top tier posters?

I'm going to make a nice little call out now.

Every single one of you who wants to take on the lurker and inactive slots, cheat yourselves a Bozo the Clown.

Because this game is very much dominated by clowns.

399, 204, 193, 177, 157, 156, 149.
Then its 99, 85, 81, 77, 73, 62, 60, 57, 40, 36, 31 - some of who are being called out as inactive coaster slots.

Ever thought they just don't want to drege through The Dross that is most of the posts from those top tier posters?

this is a really weird callout if you didn't actually mean anything by it

I have said exactly what I meant.
Nothing more.
Nothing less.

There is intent.
Anyone calling out lurkers is a clown.
Look at the sheer volume of posts - Because theres some clowns there too.
I am active, and yet, people are calling out "Lurkers" with more posts than me.

VOTE: The Keeper

Yeah the more I read these posts the more I dislike them. They feel incredibly panicky and contradictory. On the other hand Keeper seems to be unhappy with the repetitive state of the game, which is fair enough, but on the other hand they are completely opposed to us going after other slots which haven't gotten a lot of attention so far?

It's not as if we were just suddenly decide to vote someone and they're out...it takes time and by targeting a player we force them into action and get information which lets us read them as either town or not.

Also, in a 23-player game with lots of activity, I'd argue having under 40/50 posts at this point is quite notable. People have had plenty of time to come up with content.

And Keeper's posts in general early on just don't feel like they reveal much anyway, very much coasting by without putting any pressure on anyone. As per my own style I don't think they exactly need to be all over several players at this point in the game but there's very much nothing there at all despite a substantial post count.

[MalcolmTucker]

oh christ lmao

the people who are upset about the page count

now

are in for it

I think you can have a game that's active without being entirely cluttered with some arguments being constantly repeated.

Naturally there's going to be some town in lower activity posters but I don't like Keeper's suggestion we should inherently stay away from said players and I really dislike the way they framed their post above.

[MalcolmTucker]

Oh wait Catboi was referring to the replacement.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm, why are you starting another wagon instead of joining the ND one?'

This game is like corralling sheep

Because I think Keeper is probably scum based on their ISO and I remain unsure on Nashville. Nashville is one I'd potentially join to get over the line if we're confident on it.

[MalcolmTucker]

why are people so scared to vote bnunny?

I thought their reaction to suspicion seemed quite reasonable but feel like they need to step up their game and contribute more. Potentially would eliminate here toward the end of D1 with a solid case but the slot hasn't done much to convince me either way so far.

[MalcolmTucker]

Bnuuy is a lazy wagon that will probably go through.

Stand by they're probably town.

Nashville wagon is even lazier - you cant eat your cake and have it too

We still have seven days from what I can see, why the rush to push through a wagon right now?

[MalcolmTucker]

How am I hiding behind thread consensus?
My behavior could maybe be construed as trying to sideline but I haven’t rlly felt involved in the events aside from the wagon on me too much in general so that’s probably messing with the vibe

Isn't this the point being made? You're not really pushing anywhere and largely coasting by. It's hard to discern your role either way from that which isn't necessarily helpful.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm unsure I like SCP floating Bnuuy on the basis it has to be an alternative to Nashville when we still seem to have plenty of time and could explore various different options.

[MalcolmTucker]

You're literally fucking coming into the game and actively jsut pushing all the people I defended right before you came in.

This is all you ever fucking do.

For context who is SCP?

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm unsure I like SCP floating Bnuuy on the basis it has to be an alternative to Nashville when we still seem to have plenty of time and could explore various different options.

To add, I'm not necessarily anti-Bnuuy if push comes to shove and we have to get rid of someone, but it's hardly the only alternative to Nashville. Someone can reasonably oppose both provided they have an alternative suggestion.

[MalcolmTucker]

why are people so scared to vote bnunny?

I was going to make a point about how there is

so much

resistance to voting one of the many nothing posters but it was super easy to drive a wagon on me or monkeyman

Was it? The Bnuuy wagon got floated for a while and then faded away but the same happened to Monkey, and the same has gradually happened to you. There's enough players in the game that I don't think any one faction will be able to stop an elimination from going through on their own.

[MalcolmTucker]

whoa TB was pooky? I guess that doesn't surprise me given the typing style, but pooky felt mean this game Contrary to what other people have said, that actually feels a bit out of character given my experience with him

yea

more specifically, i felt TB vs leaf was an overdramatic and artificial argument about stuff that wasn't at all related to this game and not at all aimed at yeeting either of them.
in other words, it looked like svs to me, tho more strongly so from TB side of things.
VOTE: TB

Tictac's ISO doesn't impress me but I at least partially TR them for this. I'd expect generally for mafia to be aware in their PT that a player has replaced out and not available for a vote, so they can better place their vote elsewhere. Unless it's a gambit from Tictac to make them look clueless...which seems somewhat unlikely given their general lack of activity thus far.

[MalcolmTucker]

Sometimes scum just don’t look at the PT Malc

They sometimes don't yeah, if Tictac is mafia they're playing lazily I think as opposed to being deliberately inactive.

[MalcolmTucker]

sort by postcount is incredibly effective in large games usually especially with such high scum counts btw - as long as you apply a little critical thinking, it becomes clear that scum are just trying to let townies fight eachother at key moments.

I do implore people look at who *wasn't* talking at all for an extended period while people were fighting eachother later on.

I'm wary to go just on post-count but it could be useful in some scenarios here given I'm not reading any of Flavor/Catboi/Well Done as scum at the moment despite their arguments dominating the game.

[MalcolmTucker]

whoa TB was pooky? I guess that doesn't surprise me given the typing style, but pooky felt mean this game Contrary to what other people have said, that actually feels a bit out of character given my experience with him

yea

more specifically, i felt TB vs leaf was an overdramatic and artificial argument about stuff that wasn't at all related to this game and not at all aimed at yeeting either of them.
in other words, it looked like svs to me, tho more strongly so from TB side of things.
VOTE: TB

Tictac's ISO doesn't impress me but I at least partially TR them for this. I'd expect generally for mafia to be aware in their PT that a player has replaced out and not available for a vote, so they can better place their vote elsewhere. Unless it's a gambit from Tictac to make them look clueless...which seems somewhat unlikely given their general lack of activity thus far.

He very specifically mentions the argument though? So I doubt he somehow missed the replace out

It IS funny that his theory about a PT blowup was entirely true, though

They could've potentially read some of the argument without finishing it though? Did go on for forever. If they knew TB replaced out that seems like an even more townie vote, again I'm not sure Tictac is playing tactically or actively enough here to be trying for feints on voting for replaced-out players.

[MalcolmTucker]

They could be playing early damage control by being honest about not being up to date with the game so far while being scum, but I think Nashville's responses have been very townie. I like that Titus has been honest about being behind while not using it as an excuse not to make reads; I sympathise with being behind but don't think it's much of a reason for players to then continue being inactive without contributing much.

Speaking of which, I really disliked Toogeloo's post complaining about this, especially given their vote for Nashville beforehand.

By contrast, despite them not saying much so far I think Klick's posts have been quite reasonable - they've made some sort of effort to get up to date and their reasons for being behind are reasonable.

Monkey is town, Butter is town, Flavor is town I think, SCP is probably scattergun town given the intensity of their read on Enchant, which I'm not really sure I understand or get at the moment.

I'm unsure what to make of Cassowary. Was more town beforehand but not sure I was too keen on their catch-up post. Their reasoning for suspecting Flavor in the Flavor/Catboi debate felt like surfact level and borrowed from before - vague stuff like Flavor "controlling the narrative" which again is just a way to say being incredibly active and opinionated, which increasingly strikes me as Flavor's approach in any game they get heavily invested in. Although I'm not sure what to make of the Nashville vote - given Nashville had suspected them shortly beforehand, would more self-aware scum go elsewhere?

[MalcolmTucker]

And WallFlower to a similar effect, but WallF/Monkey has been my townblock for ages now, and the wild thing is...

People think WallFlower, Monkey, and I are all town.

But we're the 3 that have been mainly pushing Catboi. My thoughts are Catboi's partners are refusing to bus, and there's the other scum in some of the ones that move their vote, like CSF, Toogeloo, Mega, maybe even Tictac.

And that's actually a strong reasoning for ScumCatboi.

If Catboi turns out to be scum, I think in a game this large their partners are likely distancing themselves and saying very little instead of being active in defending them. Catboi looks to be surviving so best to keep a disconnect there in a hypothetical Catboi-scum world.

[MalcolmTucker]

hey malcom, lets lim the lurkscum ok? Why are you against enchant?

I don't even know what the Enchant case is supposed to be though compared to other lurkers?

[MalcolmTucker]

So many new pages. Has much happened?

[MalcolmTucker]

So many new pages. Has much happened?

Catboi, FL, and SCP all got heated enough to each earn a warning from the mod - so have fun wading through.

Keeper finally did something that let me feel confident calling them town.

ND is still the leading wagon, although they have returned to the thread. With Mala being a quite pleasant human being to interact with, but unable to address the suspicions directed at the slot as the suspicions are based around Titu's postings.

Tictac made a gross post.

----

These are the highlights that I can think of off the top of my head.

So not much then.

[MalcolmTucker]

Some of that is completely tiresome reading back. I agree with WD that Keeper's frustration seemed more genuine so happy to remove my vote from there.

Will do some individual ISO casing to try and gauge where I am re certain players. Finding it hard to get proper mafia reads because I'm TR'ing most of the main players involved in these incredibly long and neverending arguments.

[MalcolmTucker]

Oops, meant to do above.

UNVOTE: Keeper

[MalcolmTucker]

I didn't hate the idea of Toogeloo but see they won't be around until D2. Waste of vote then for now.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: bunny
I will literally kill any of the blatant slots atp

how am I meant to read you again btw

SCP seems like completely scattergun town to me in a way that's enormously frustrating, so many posts dedicated to reads only for a quick 180 reversal when they realise they've missed the context of one vote completely or whatever.

[MalcolmTucker]

wanna know whats really annoying

those who are pushing "us" as a lurker there is other players who have little posts as well and aren't having fire placed under their ass

{tictac, casso, toog, MegA, enchant, klick, mastina & CSF}

there's a few more, but whatever.

I'm at the end of page 113.

I agree with this, I don't think Nashville has even been particularly inactive at this point, well over 100+ posts now. Argument on the merit of elimination sure but lurker justifications are fundamentally weak at this point.

[MalcolmTucker]

you know what isn't a wasted vote, malc? bnuuy

I'll do an ISO check I guess. I thought their response first time around when accused was townie but they've done little since then to move away from what was initially get them read as scum in the first place.

[MalcolmTucker]

SCP seems like completely scattergun town to me in a way that's enormously frustrating, so many posts dedicated to reads only for a quick 180 reversal when they realise they've missed the context of one vote completely or whatever.

nah they do this as both alignments lol, the scattergun thing isn't really a wise basis for a TR on them

Cool, I think I know who it is but obviously wouldn't want to say out loud if it's a secret alt. I wonder if their approach so far has allowed them to get away without much suspicion for sometimes baseless reads.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think Bnuuy is town. Not hugely active but solid and progressive enough reads, doesn't have a particular agenda that feels scummy at the moment, reasonable response when pushed earlier in D1. Not keen on my vote going there.

[MalcolmTucker]

but solid and progressive enough reads

uh where

most posts are just like

"this thing happened"
"this post is good/bad-delete-as-necessary"

TR'd me when it would have been easy to scumread. Wasn't too keen on Flavor albeit never pushed it too hard. I think the latter part is my issue - they've had reads but never particularly expand upon them or do anything of note with them. Just not getting a scum vibe so far.

[MalcolmTucker]

I already told you that you're like the second towniest town in the game after wallflower

I still don't see why Wallflower is particularly townie.

[MalcolmTucker]

Some of that is completely tiresome reading back.

I agree with WD that Keeper's frustration seemed more genuine so happy to remove my vote from there.

Will do some individual ISO casing to try and gauge where I am re certain players. Finding it hard to get proper mafia reads because I'm TR'ing most of the main players involved in these incredibly long and neverending arguments.

But Well Done talked about catboi's frustration, not The Keeper? Their reason for townreading The Keeper had nothing to do with frustration (3625)

Spoiler: some posts

wanna know whats really annoying

those who are pushing "us" as a lurker there is other players who have little posts as well and aren't having fire placed under their ass

{tictac, casso, toog, MegA, enchant, klick, mastina & CSF}

there's a few more, but whatever.

I'm at the end of page 113.

I agree with this, I don't think Nashville has even been particularly inactive at this point, well over 100+ posts now. Argument on the merit of elimination sure but lurker justifications are fundamentally weak at this point.

wanna know whats really annoying

those who are pushing "us" as a lurker there is other players who have little posts as well and aren't having fire placed under their ass

{tictac, casso, toog, MegA, enchant, klick, mastina & CSF}

there's a few more, but whatever.

I'm at the end of page 113.

So when I spotted this I grabbed Deaths List, i need to go back but thats a lot of pages.

There was a few people pushing the low posters but said low posters had active people below them in post count, annoyingly one of you also did it. CSF did it as well, and Catboi also pulled that line.

There's a couple more I need to find because there was a definite "LURKER YEET" movement. Within those 3 is 74% chance one of you is a proper baddie.
I know where i'd put my Three Dollar Bill at the moment if I went in this current pool.

oh my god

I think by this point, misunderstanding the case on ND is probably just willful misrep.

At the very least, I think Malcolm is scummy

Who knows, maybe it is but at this point there is just frankly too much going on to gain an accurate read of everyone. Happy to ISO ND again on D2. Don't plan to catch up on the 30-odd pages I've missed until then.

[MalcolmTucker]

Not doing well irl so don’t expect much from me rn (not like y’all were anyway)

Hope things are alright, keep well.

[MalcolmTucker]

Alright, caught up with D2 so far after being very, very behind. I TR'd Flavor for most of D1 but I believe Monkey's claim and I think it's unlikely here that neither team went for a kill, or that their kill clashed with Flavor killing Catboi. I'm just fundamentally struggling to see a world where Flavor isn't scum here going forward.

Also - Monkey raised this possibility briefly but is there a chance SCP/Flavor can be a team together here? Their argument D1 started to spill on for so long that I can't remember specifics but despite Flavor getting annoyed at SCP seemingly taking different stances to them deliberately to provoke, I don't think they actually potentially SR'd each other and it's not beyond the realms of possibility they are working together here?

Flavor says SCP would have pushed Catboi more, but if they are teammates is it not possible SCP didn't do this deliberately since Flavor was already doing the work there? It'd also kinda make sense to allow SCP to then distance themselves from the kill when it was made.

VOTE: FlavorLeaf

[MalcolmTucker]

Menalque is also increasingly suspicious to me now. If I remember correctly they were keen on the Bnuuy wagon D1 and it did get ramped up for a bit as a possible alternative to Catboi. Felt like the sort of wagon scum could easily push - Bnuuy hadn't said too much at that point and it did get some momentum very quickly, but it feels unlikely that Bnuuy is scum as a consequence.

[MalcolmTucker]

Also - Monkey raised this possibility briefly but is there a chance SCP/Flavor can be a team together here?

No. This just plummeted you in my reads.

FL and SCP do not fight for control of the thread to that extent if teamed.

Also, I still feel Meg should be the elimination, but I'm not about to turn this into yesterday again. I don't have a TR on CSF.

VOTE: CSF

I agree it's somewhat unlikely but was exploring the possibility. Fundamentally I've not really been TR'ing SCP from going through posts recently but they are just very hard to read due to their style. But if Flavor is scum which I think they are SCP is then not.

[MalcolmTucker]

Also - Monkey raised this possibility briefly but is there a chance SCP/Flavor can be a team together here?

No. This just plummeted you in my reads.

FL and SCP do not fight for control of the thread to that extent if teamed.

Also, I still feel Meg should be the elimination, but I'm not about to turn this into yesterday again. I don't have a TR on CSF.

VOTE: CSF

I agree it's somewhat unlikely but was exploring the possibility. Fundamentally I've not really been TR'ing SCP from going through posts recently but they are just very hard to read due to their style. But if Flavor is scum which I think they are SCP is then not.

Why is flavor scum?

I outlined why I think they are above. Unlikely neither scum team killed overnight or that they happened to clash with a Flavor vig kill. I agree with Monkey here that on balance of things it's incredibly unlikely Flavor is town.

[MalcolmTucker]

sort by postcount is incredibly effective in large games usually especially with such high scum counts btw - as long as you apply a little critical thinking, it becomes clear that scum are just trying to let townies fight eachother at key moments.

I do implore people look at who *wasn't* talking at all for an extended period while people were fighting eachother later on.

I'm wary to go just on post-count but it could be useful in some scenarios here given I'm not reading any of Flavor/Catboi/Well Done as scum at the moment despite their arguments dominating the game.

x

You can quite clearly see in my vote post why my read on Flavor has changed.

[MalcolmTucker]

So only for mechanical reasons where it is still viable for FL to be town?

What are the dayplay reasons?

It's viable but an incredibly slim chance. Primarily for mechanical reasons yes, I've not particularly SR'd Flavor's play so far then I didn't with Catboi either.

[MalcolmTucker]

If it's seen as too big a risk I'd be happy to consider Mena for the reasons outlined above. I don't have much in the way of thoughts on Meg yet but would need to case them before voting there, however I've certainly not been defensive of their slot so far.

[MalcolmTucker]

Perfectly entitled to SR me (my play has been a bit rubbish this game, fundamentally been moving too quickly for me to keep up) but I think it's perfectly reasonable to vote Flavor based on the info we have. Several players have now done so, do you think all of them are scum?

[MalcolmTucker]

Who in particular do you reckon I should be ISO'ing here? As I say been majorly behind and not got a strong grip on the game but if you want me on side, happy to take a look through individual players who you reckon are worth casing.

[MalcolmTucker]

Think Flavor is mafia but can (sort of) see the logic to letting him live another day/night to prove he's vig.

VOTE: Menalque

[MalcolmTucker]

FL already claimed vig so there’s only one town slot he could be. However he could still be any of the four mafia slots plus any werewolf slot with a gun.

I agree Flavor is likely mafia on balance of things but I think we can afford to probably have them around for one more day, if they're being genuine here they probably die overnight you'd imagine. If they are town both scum teams will almost certainly strike.

[MalcolmTucker]

@malcolm, why not CSF?

I TR'd them early D1 and hadn't seen anything glaring to change that so far. I'll do an ISO on them shortly, just been reading through Butter's game.

[MalcolmTucker]

Been ISO'ing Butter and despite some suggestions to the contrary I think they remain solidly town for me right now.

I'm aware this is obviously coming from knowing I'm town myself, but their town-read on me felt quite genuine and unnecessary if scum - they could have easily joined or at least tried to bolster a wagon against me to put me under more pressure. Likewise, their TR of Klick early doors felt genuine in that it wasn't just a complete "this person is town" but also put out a reasonable case as to why they believed that to be true.

I'm aware some players can make themselves look extra townie with big, long analytical posts but I feel like there's plenty of substance in what Butter has posted and they've been open-minded enough to new ideas or wagons without being too opportunistic.

If you were being particularly harsh on Butter you could say the early votes on Monkey and pressure there was potentially opportunistic and a way to push a townie they thought was flailing. But I don't think any of their interrogations of Monkey were unreasonable and in time they were willing to back off the slot a bit in a way that felt organic.

[MalcolmTucker]

I mean, its not spite spite like I dislike you so much that I'm intentionally ignoring the game to spite you just that I don't trust that your mena read is truthful.

Well I think you should try reevaling if you reached similar scumreads as me for mafia after I already outted my reads there.

Mena likes to be a lurkfuck as scum and loses a lot of steam as the game goes - and that's present here, and he has no fire in his play.

VOTE: Malcom

Let's do this, aight?

Fire ahead. I'm town but my reads have been useless this game, struggling to get a feel for it.

[MalcolmTucker]

This game just isn’t and hasn’t been fun for ages but I feel that repping out ruins game integrity so I’m sticking with it at minimal activity hoping that either I get limmed or that enough people get limmed that I start wanting to play again

Yeah largely been in a similar position myself. If I have enough time I'll try and come up with some more developed reads but it's been a slog.

UNVOTE: Menalque

[MalcolmTucker]

From when I read CSF's ISO the other day I agree with Mastina that they seem townie. Not been fully up to scratch on the game but I keep seeing suggestions to vote CSF without a proper case.

[MalcolmTucker]

From when I read CSF's ISO the other day I agree with Mastina that they seem townie. Not been fully up to scratch on the game but I keep seeing suggestions to vote CSF without a proper case.

this seems like a copout :upsidedown:

I mean if I wanted a cop-out I'd just sheep onto a popular wagon but I genuinely don't know who to go for here, and when I looked through Cat's ISO I just wasn't seeing all that much that was scummy.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: NeroCain

Bit of a gut read but why not.

[MalcolmTucker]

got bad news today not sure if i'll be around

Sorry to hear, keep well.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Cassowary

Unsure how likely this would be to go through for now but I reckon we have an okay chance of hitting scum here. Spent longer than was probably needed sitting on Monkey D1, hesitant but then willing to jump on Toogeloo end of D1, could be a possible teammate of Catboi I suppose.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Cassowary

Unsure how likely this would be to go through for now but I reckon we have an okay chance of hitting scum here. Spent longer than was probably needed sitting on Monkey D1, hesitant but then willing to jump on Toogeloo end of D1, could be a possible teammate of Catboi I suppose.

This feels worded in a way that the rationale came after malcolm decided to drop this vote

It is admittedly more of a gut vote to be fair, largely lost my way in this game to a degree, so the logic is far from infallible.

[MalcolmTucker]

As for Malcolm

Going from no votes to eliminated with 11 votes in 8 hours
Without getting a chance to post
Without a claim
And without most of the wagon

explaining why they are voting for Malcolm

Regardless of what Malcolm flips here, this wagon was obviously sketchy

I'm town but don't blame people for wagoning me, my contributions have been useless and I'd probably make a decent compromise.

All I'll say is you should get some very, very interesting stuff from my elimination should it come to pass.

[MalcolmTucker]

If I'm not to be eliminated immediately, give me a bit of time and I'll try to assess the wagon on me.

[MalcolmTucker]

If I'm not to be eliminated immediately, give me a bit of time and I'll try to assess the wagon on me.

I find it odd MalcolmTucker places a contigency on him giving reads that he's not eliminated. He bails after I tell him he's hammered. No claim no nothing.

Oops, I didn't see I'd been hammered, apologies. Guessing I really shouldn't be commenting now given I'm technically out. Here's hoping I played this well.