Not Quite Normal Multiball II (Game Over)

[butterchurn]

reading some posts does not mean they have been reading most posts.

But reading some posts should be enough to have some opinions.

Yet you're fine with Meg hinting she has reads she won't disclose, giving no reads, defending Toog and dodging a catboi read?

That should die over honest drowning.

I wouldn't say fine, but Toog is the wagon, not Meg. We can deal with Meg later.

[butterchurn]

Im not that sure toog will flip scum since he's kind of always like this.

But I want to end the day and i shouldn't be really picky on who at this point

Toog was recently at E-1, I think it's slightly less now but still the leading wagon.

[butterchurn]

Yeah it's at E-2, I'm pretty sure.

[butterchurn]

I was including that. Sword of Ducks joined before that to make it E-1.

[butterchurn]

i want the day to end but i don't want to acquiesce to FL holding the entire game hostage to push his pet elimination

butter: I think Flavor was the one who put it at E-1 and then Flavor and StD both left the wagon so now it's E-3

And Sword of Ducks joined after Flavor left. E-2.

[butterchurn]

Just because you agree with the sentiment doesnt make that town.

Scum are gonna be against me more than town here.

Town get apathetic towards me. Scum have to take action against me.

Or you're wrong, and scum are encouraging you.

[butterchurn]

Checking FL doesn't solve anything unless you think I'm lying.

That is a significant concern, yes.

[butterchurn]

Malefactor doesn't have a gun.

How do you know that?

[butterchurn]

VOTE: Nashville Dreams

[butterchurn]

He was scum pinging me throughout the entire day.

Why did you have him at 95 town in 4440?

[butterchurn]

I townread Wallflower earlier, but it doesn't look like Nero is arguing in good faith on this point about MegAzumarill. A lot of word twisting going on.

[butterchurn]

vote nero w/me

I don't know if it's enough to completely erode my townread yet. I know that when I played scum against town Nero, he did a similar thing where he kept making points that weren't actually valid and twisting things yet he mostly ended up being right on the reads anyway. So, I'm not really sure that it makes him scum.

[butterchurn]

what am I twisting?

5680, 5687 look like you're trying to twist her words into making her actions a towntell when she was in fact arguing they were NAI (she was just saying the action itself isn't a scumtell for her)

Yes, this.

[butterchurn]

hey Butter, remind me what your catboi stance was D1

Started as a townread, then FL's case convinced me that there were some valid things to scumread, generally didn't like his case on FL and thought he had scum motivation behind it, and thought his responses to people like me and Malcolm were suspicious. And yet, despite all that, I was fooled enough by his tone to not be confident in a scumread. By the end of the Day, I had him on the scum side of null, but not by a lot, there was still too much that I personally read as town even though I could understand the reasons for scum.

[butterchurn]

I'm mostly caught up and will be around for a little bit. I am fairly busy this weekend so I haven't had time yet to do the analysis that I wanted to surrounding catboi, but I'll get to that at some point. I don't really understand why Flavor Leaf is a wagon unless it's just policy for the spam yesterDay. The "guilty" seems like fairly weak reasoning, and I thought that catboi flipping scum actually gave more credence to FL. Is there more that I'm missing? Someone please point me to a case, if there is one. I much prefer the two alternate wagons of Nashville Dreams and Cat Scratch Fever. Nashville Dreams is obviously my preference still, but I can switch if necessary.

[butterchurn]

FL already claimed vig so there’s only one town slot he could be. However he could still be any of the four mafia slots plus any werewolf slot with a gun.

Is this the case?

[butterchurn]

From the way I see it yes.

That is, quite frankly, ridiculous.

[butterchurn]

I found some time to sit down and work over this game a little bit. Apologies for the absence, I should be less busy in general moving forward.

- MonkeyMan in general seems to be acting in bad faith, especially lately, and I'm really struggling not to scumread the slot. I've been told that his behavior is not necessarily scummy for him (although, now that I think about it, catboi was one of the main people telling me that), but I agree with the assessment that someone made (not sure who, can't find it on a quick look) that he has been coasting a bit after the initial pressure died down. The recent interactions with Flavor Leaf and SCP just feel blatantly scummy to me, and it's getting hard to ignore.
- Malcolm's brief adventure onto the Flavor Leaf wagon left a bad taste in my mouth, but that's (to my memory) literally the only thing that I've found suspicious from him so far, so I'm willing to give it a pass for now. I think I can understand where he would be coming from, if town.
- Nero Cain seems to have come in with certain (largely incorrect) narratives that he decided to push about the game (for example, that Menalque is a lurker), with by his own admission not reading very much of the game prior to his entrance. Despite this, he stands by his own narratives and doesn't show much interest in reassessing them. This could just be poor town play, but it does make me pause and think if, for example, a fellow member of a scum team gave him a summary of thread events in their PT and that's what he's basing these narratives on. Still leaning town overall, but it is a thought that occurred to me while reading.
- I was somewhat surprised to find how much I agreed with the reads by Klick in 6240. My main difference would be having cassowary in more of a townread, FL less of a scumread, and MegAzumarill as null at best. Regardless, this makes me feel a lot better about Klick, who I was feeling fairly neutral on previously. Knowing that we're seeing the game in a roughly similar light improves their chances of being town, in my view.
- Dunnstral and cassowary still feel fairly towny to me. My one experience with Dunnstral was with him as scum, and this feels quite different to me. It's interesting how I didn't really pick up on it until he took over the slot. I think previously I was reading the posts mostly as someone new; it seemed like Lukewarm was more prominently posting. Now that it's just Dunnstral it's easier to make the mental comparison. Cassowary seems to be continuing to solve and seems to be working independently, I don't get any feeling that she is pushing a narrative or is acting in an informed manner.
- I still think Nashville is scum. I don't think their posts toDay have been towny at all. I also can't help but notice that Mala's posting has fallen off significantly, and someone on Day 1 was talking about how Mala has gotten scum a lot lately and appears to be tired of it and doesn't have a lot of stamina as scum. I think that could be what we're seeing here. I know that a lot of people's posting has fallen off, myself included, so I certainly wouldn't use that as a primary reason for a scumread. But it does line up.

[butterchurn]

I think accusing him of being a lurker is a pretty apt statement, no?

Why is my accusation that he's being a useless lurksack an "incorrect narrative" but Kobas isn't? Do you think he's not being a useless lurksack?

I don't think it is an accurate representation of his play this game, no.

'm very much allowed to have thoughts about previous games and it's not something that I accused him of d1...hence why I said it d2.

You are allowed to have thoughts on the game based solely on the context that you have read, yes. I am allowed to take issue with you extrapolating those thoughts to the whole game when they don't actually apply due to your limited context. You have done this multiple times, and I found it scummy because it leaves you a way to have an easy out when someone calls you out for being wrong, and thus you can push incorrect narratives without consequence.

I take umbrage with this, I was voting Wolf scum while you were busy misliming town. My reads could be wrong and garbage but so far they aren't (I'm not even hard scumreading Mena though I could understand how he could be wolf) but so far they've been ok and better than yours. Also didn't you make this same accusation against me in Polish Rap?

I might have, but I think as scum I'm generally careful to be logically correct, so if I did then I did genuinely believe that your reasoning was wrong there as well.

[butterchurn]

I might have, but I think as scum I'm generally careful to be logically correct, so if I did then I did genuinely believe that your reasoning was wrong there as well.

Is the TDLR that you were wrong for the right reasons and Nero was right for the wrong reasons?

~Titus

In Polish Rap? That was how I felt about it, more or less. Most of the arguing was fairly performative since I wasn't trying to change his mind, I was just trying to get him to end up with the wrong partners for me, since we only needed one miselimination to win. But I do remember thinking that he was twisting things and making incorrect logical leaps as town.

[butterchurn]

Do you feel that's happening here?

Well, in this case I'm not scum, so no, not exactly. I talked about this earlier though, how I did feel like he was twisting things in an interaction with MegAzumarill, and I initially found that scummy, but then thought back to the previous game and remembered that he did that as town and ended up being right for what I felt like were the wrong reasons.

[butterchurn]

It's possible but I don't think the distinction is very relevant to anyone's alignment.

[butterchurn]

My best reasoning for eliminating Malcolm and Mena is that they don't care and are willing to die.

This sounds like a reason not to eliminate them. Why would scum not care?

[butterchurn]

Well, I asked for you. See post 2197.

[butterchurn]

Also, Nashville's switch from believing the wagons were counterwagons to MonkeyMan to saying they were counterwagons to catboi was absolutely an unsupported and scummy progression. She failed to explain it until several days later and the explanation wasn't even that good. Saying that Well Done was criticizing the progression because they were upset with the switch to catboi is absurd and a false narrative.

I still believe we had 2 scum wagons Day 1 on catboi and Nashville, and that's why the game stalled out for so long. I think the Nashville wagon would have gone through if that slot was town. Instead it met significant resistance, which wasn't seen with the wagons on people like bnuuy, tictac, and Toogeloo. This, to me, is evidence that Nashville is scum and those three are more likely to be town.

[butterchurn]

Enough to affect whether a wagon goes through, same as with catboi. Which wagons, specifically? I brought up the 3 that I remembered being most prominent, and they happened quickly.

[butterchurn]

Looking back, the only other prominent wagon I see was on MonkeyMan, and that could be on scum, yes. It gained a certain amount of traction but never close to enough, and it never felt like there was a lot of scum piling on the wagon to push it forward.

[butterchurn]

Butterchurn engaging in revisionist history is cute and a flagrant attempt to discredit anyone who can't be a wolf.

Without even cite checking, there's bullshit that a) the only other major wagon besides myself and catboi was MM, b) the wagon on us immediately dissipated when Ydrasse entered/Norway exited which meant scum could no longer hide on that wagon, c) butter is objecting to me using wagon momentum and claiming lack of progression. His original vote was because he didn't like the catboi vote.

My bet, without proof, is that the wolves jumped upon me when they saw an opportunity due to my prior RL and EE pushing heavily. They did not expect EE to leave and thus make their parking obvious.

Nope, this is posturing. I'm not misrepresenting history at all, and this is rich considering you were clearly barely reading the thread at times. If you were town here you wouldn't have this level of confidence in your knowledge of the movement of the game so far. But as scum, you need to project a level of confidence that is unsupported by your actual knowledge, because your goal is not to be right, it's to look like you believe what you're saying.

a) I never said that the only major wagon besides yourself and catboi was MM. If you were reading and genuinely trying to sort me, you would know this. I very clearly stated that I felt the most prominent other wagons were on bnuuy, tictac, and Toogeloo, and it is a well-supported fact that those wagons happened faster and met less resistance than those on yourself and catboi. The MonkeyMan wagon was somewhere in between, as it had a decent number of supporters and stuck around for a while but never really reached a critical point. I think that one could go either way.

b) You've stated this multiple times and it is not true. As of post 3405, you were at 7 votes. catboi was at 4, and MonkeyMan was at 2. Flavor Leaf re-emphasizes that he does not support a Nashville wagon in Save The Dragons leaves to join catboi. This makes it 6 to 5. Well Done and Cat Scratch Fever discuss more good reasons for why Nashiville is scum, and you continue to ignore them.

Notice who the current leading wagons are toDay. I highly doubt that's a coincidence.

Klick votes in 3513 to bring it back to 7. Flavor Leaf cases for why Nashville can't be scum based on the wagon, with some extremely faulty logic that is correctly called out by Well Done. Looking back now, maybe there is actually a world where Flavor and Nashville are scum together. I still think it's most likely that Flavor was just successfully pocketed, though. Klick leaves for bnuuy in 3541. As a side note, I think this shows a clear lack of agenda from Klick. Menalque joins Nashville, continuing to sheep catboi as he stated he would. The point at which the wagon actually starts to deteriorate is when both heads of the hydra return to the thread and start posting. This combines with some momentum from Menalque, SCP, and Save the Dragons onto bnuuy. The reason why I don't think any of this has to do with Norwegian leaving (except indirectly with Menalque being excited to talk to Ydrasse and therefore having a bit more presence in the thread) is because the last time that Norwegian even mentioned Nashville was was back in 3304. So this rising and falling of the wagon all happened without Norwegian. It is 100% a false claim that scum were hiding behind him pushing heavily because he

was not pushing heavily during the time that you're referring to

. These are the facts. Your narrative is false.

c) This is false as well. You perspective slipped and tried to cover it up. My reasons for scumreading you were clearly stated and had nothing to do with the catbobi vote. Do you know how I know this? Because my original vote on you was in 1729. You didn't vote catboi until 4678. This isn't even twisting the facts anymore, it's just bald-faced lying. Even if I'm being extremely generous and assume that you mean your post 1684, which is not even remotely a vote, it is simply a sudden shift in the perspective that you are presenting to the thread. I will note again that the key word in that post is "another". The perspective from which you are writing this post implies that you have been believing previously that other wagons have been counters to catboi. However,

this is not true

, and your previous stance was that the wagons were counters to MonkeyMan. You only changed this position to align your reads to Flavor Leaf and hide behind his pushes. I think you were likely expecting that catboi was town, but it turned out he was just the opposite faction to you, which meant you were able to get some undeserved towncred and get away with what in most cases should result in an immediate elimination. And

I think you're hoping that since I've been busier this Day phase, I would be unable to take the time to refute your lies and prove that you are simply scum making up narratives that suit your needs. Unfortunately for you, I had some free time today.

Cat Scratch and Dunn are both likely town, and are both likely being wagoned because they were the two who were most critical of Nashville Dreams.

[butterchurn]

Why not Nashville, Dragons?

[butterchurn]

god maybe it's like monkeyman

That is very possible.

[butterchurn]

I mean apparently everyone thinks I’m a wolf anyway, is there a reason to

not

just lim me when you’re unlikely to get more out of me than this

I don't particularly. I didn't really get the impression that everyone thought that either.

[butterchurn]

I mean apparently everyone thinks I’m a wolf anyway, is there a reason to

not

just lim me when you’re unlikely to get more out of me than this

I don't particularly. I didn't really get the impression that everyone thought that either.

I could be wrong, but every time I’ve stuck my head briefly into thread in the last few days I think I’ve seen someone calling me a wolf shortly before or shortly after I posted

I think there's some loud people who do, but I'm not sure that it's at all a majority. Personally I think you would be unlikely to so blatantly tie yourself to catboi if you were his partner.

[butterchurn]

i think it's a little handwavey to take butter's post against you and call them a wolf

Ok. We had that discussion multiple times. Butter's making huge walls to obscure 1) they voted on every wagon but catboi and 2) they jumped on me as soon as I suggested catboi might need to be eliminated and 3) the wagon on me (minus a few scumreads) disintegrated after EE was subbed out, suggesting scum were kissing EE's ass. That's true of wolves.

They're using "makes no sense" and walls to obscure.

If it's the truth and simple, it can usually be said simply.

Lies are easier to state simply because then you don't have to try to support them with evidence. I can state simply as well:

1) NorwegianBoy/Ydrasse slot was also on every major wagon, and never on catboi. SCP was briefly on catboi, but not when it was a major wagon. They were on every other major wagon. Mena was on every non-catboi wagon, excepting the initial RVS wagon. Save the Dragons was also on every wagon, and briefly on catboi. He switched his vote around a lot. Many people were on multiple wagons. You're only singling me out because you want to push a narrative.
2) I jumped on you for being scum. If you read my posts at the time, you can clearly see that I never believed that you had any interest in eliminating catboi, because it was a clear perspective slip.
3) I already explained how this was false. The wagon disintegrated when both hydra heads returned from being gone from the thread for several days.

[butterchurn]

NorwegianBoy/Ydrasse slot was also on every major wagon, and never on catboi.

Correction, they were briefly on catboi, I missed it when ctrl+F-ing the ISO.

[butterchurn]

@Butter - they sheeped me onto Catboi, Catboi then called them out slightly, then after the Bnuuy wagon, they never went back and sat on ND the rest of the game.

You're right, my mistake.

[butterchurn]

3) I already explained how this was false. The wagon disintegrated when both hydra heads returned from being gone from the thread for several days.

Flat out false. People scrambled moments after EE was replaced.

I already went over this and it doesn't follow. Norwegian hadn't posted about you for about 300 posts.

1) NorwegianBoy/Ydrasse slot was also on every major wagon, and never on catboi. SCP was briefly on catboi, but not when it was a major wagon. They were on every other major wagon. Mena was on every non-catboi wagon, excepting the initial RVS wagon. Save the Dragons was also on every wagon, and briefly on catboi. He switched his vote around a lot. Many people were on multiple wagons. You're only singling me out because you want to push a narrative.

EE and Ydrasse are two different people. Mel wasn't attacking everyone who voted catboi.

You're getting pressure from me because you chainsawed catboi without defending him despite multiple opportunities.
StD was clearly still sheeping everyone with a pulse.

You clearly weren't reading the thread, then. I didn't attack everyone who voted catboi, I talked with Flavor about catboi a lot, at times defending catboi, which you seem to have missed, but in general took Flavor's side on things.

[butterchurn]

For instance, here. Butter gets into a semantic argument over the definition of counterwagon rather than defend catboi.

More words saying nothing about why catboi is not worth voting and covienently scumreading every counter.

I had, at the point where the quoted posts were made, probably spent more total words talking about my read on catboi and the progression of it than any other slot in the game. I didn't feel a great need to rehash that with you just because you were too lazy to read. You've been told this already. You hadn't been reading the thread, or you would know this. You simply picked narratives that best suited you and are cherrypicking to support them. I responded to your posts mostly focusing on criticizing your characterizations of things because they were wrong, and likely intentionally wrong, because again, all you cared about was pushing narratives. I did answer your questions as asked, despite that, and despite your claims otherwise.

[butterchurn]

For instance, here. Butter gets into a semantic argument over the definition of counterwagon rather than defend catboi.

More words saying nothing about why catboi is not worth voting and covienently scumreading every counter.

I had, at the point where the quoted posts were made, probably spent more total words talking about my read on catboi and the progression of it than any other slot in the game. I didn't feel a great need to rehash that with you just because you were too lazy to read. You've been told this already. You hadn't been reading the thread, or you would know this. You simply picked narratives that best suited you and are cherrypicking to support them. I responded to your posts mostly focusing on criticizing your characterizations of things because they were wrong, and likely intentionally wrong, because again, all you cared about was pushing narratives. I did answer your questions as asked, despite that, and despite your claims otherwise.

[butterchurn]

I already went over this and it doesn't follow. Norwegian hadn't posted about you for about 300 posts.

The wagon died in less than 50 posts probably less than 20 after he left, not our return.

You can't just say things and that makes them true. This is provably false. I already went over how events unfolded.

[butterchurn]

Flavor/Nero, Do you find it odd that the three people I called out the most yesterday all decided to vote me?

If you're talking about me, this is once again extremely twisting the narrative of things. You townread me early on, in fact, and I voted you first. You've been my strongest scumread for most of the game. Implying that I decided to vote you due to you calling me out is ludicrous. It was the other way around.

[butterchurn]

Who? I was already scum reading Butter.

Butter Meg Enchant.

Meg was my favorite lim.
Butter I called out the voting pattern and chainsaw.
Enchant I called out the refusal to vote.

Meg also had you as a top scumread here well before you had Meg as your "favorite lim". In fact, yesterday, you talked about how Meg was likely limbait that was being taken advantage of by scum in posts like 3100, 3101, 3102, 3165. Once again, your statements are provably false.

[butterchurn]

Flavor/Nero, Do you find it odd that the three people I called out the most yesterday all decided to vote me?

If you're talking about me, this is once again extremely twisting the narrative of things. You townread me early on, in fact, and I voted you first. You've been my strongest scumread for most of the game. Implying that I decided to vote you due to you calling me out is ludicrous. It was the other way around.

I dont think this is as strong as a defense as you think it is; i think you're town and this post pinged me.

Well, you also think Nashville is town, so I can see why you wouldn't notice her twisting things. How is it not twisting for her to imply that the three people voting her are doing so because she called them out when 2/3 of them scumread her strongly before she "called them out"?

[butterchurn]

Nero, what? I was responding to Nashville. Nashville townread me early. I wasn't talking to you at all, I don't know why you think I was.

Saying that I wanted to vote people who scumread catboi is also false, I townread Flavor Leaf and Wallflower, who were by far the two strongest pushers of catboi. Nashville was actually the only one who fits the description. I scumread MonkeyMan before he suspected catboi.

[butterchurn]

Saying that I wanted to vote people who scumread catboi is also false, I townread Flavor Leaf and Wallflower, who were by far the two strongest pushers of catboi. Nashville was actually the only one who fits the description. I scumread MonkeyMan before he suspected catboi.

Actually, the amount of times that Nashville has lied about this has even started to distort my memory of things --

Correction: not even Nashville fits this description

. At the time that I voted her, she was townreading catboi in every single post except for the one that was a perspective slip, and I wasn't treating that as a real read because the progression didn't make any sense coming from town.

[butterchurn]

I'm pretty sure you scumread me after I suspected catboi, Butter.

I suspected you from your first RVS posts. I guess you were on the early catboi RVS wagon as well, but I still suspected you as early as post 32 and 41, which was before you voted catboi.

[butterchurn]

lol sorry Butters, I just got mixed up b/c my name was in Titus' post

but the Nashville tunnel and not pushing anywhere else when there'd be 7 non ND scum does come off as agenda-driven, no?

I'm somewhat annoyed that people are letting what looks like obvious scum to me slip away for reasons that I don't think are good at all, so maybe I am a bit single-minded. I also think that the two current leading wagons are unaligned with Nashville. Sure, it's possible they're among the remaining wolves (I think Nashville is most likely to be mafia), but that does reduce the chances significantly. I believe that in a large game like this, people's attention can easily get split and diverted, and trying to push too many things at once is in fact generally detrimental to town. It's not like Nashville is my only scumread, it's just the one that I think is most worth pushing right now.

[butterchurn]

It's pretty clear that Hirsute does not interact and it's curious why Ydrasse automatically assumed that it would.

That wasn't my interpretation. I believe that's why she clarified, actually, and she was explaining why she clarified. Since "same alignment" is potentially ambiguous (for other people interpreting her claim) in the case of a Miller/Hirsute while "same win condition" is not.

[butterchurn]

I've never heard of a interpretation where miller isn't part of town.

I'm not very familiar with Millers as a role, but based on my understanding of them, if she had just said "I'm a Parity Cop, and I check if two people are the same alignment", I would be unsure about if that interacts with Miller/Hirsute or not.

[butterchurn]

Flavor Leaf (3) | Klick, Dunnstral, mastina

Ydrasse (2) | The Keeper, Cat Scratch Fever

Menalque (1) | Sword of Ducks
Nero Cain (1) | MalcolmTucker

neither FL or YD are going to happen today. I mean yes, maybe the 5 voting them are just super hard headed and/or unable to read the room

Sword and Malcolm are just being useless.

but between those 7....prob a few scum.

We are also at 75 pages today, lets not make it another 200 page day.

I agree. We should consolidate. Klick and Dunnstral, join on Nashville?

[butterchurn]

I didn't think that the "Cop" in Parity Cop was meant to be flavored towards one faction. I don't think there would be a Parity Seer, for example. It's just a word used to mean someone who checks, like Vanilla Cop. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I've interpreted it.

[butterchurn]

cute another wagon to save scum-dunn & scum-csf

Another? What previous wagon was to save scum!Dunn and scum!CSF? Please, do tell.

[butterchurn]

I believe you misread that, Nero. It looks to me like Klick was saying they townread you, with the exception being that if you are scum, then there must be a reason you're putting in the work -- such as, your partner being under pressure. I think that's a reasonable assessment to make.

[butterchurn]

cute another wagon to save scum-dunn & scum-csf

Another? What previous wagon was to save scum!Dunn and scum!CSF? Please, do tell.

I do think this was somewhat overlooked. They're clearly just making things up at this point and I'm not sure why nobody seems to care.

[butterchurn]

I would prefer not to.

[butterchurn]

tell us why?

I felt they were strongly town on Day 1 and they went to a level of effort and engagement that seems unlikely if they were scum. I can understand the case on them for toDay; I've felt that they've gotten less towny over time. For me, the main reason I am uninterested in voting there is that I'm far more confident in Nashville Dreams being scum and I really do not want to let them slip away again -- for, again, no good reason. I'm fairly happy with these two being the leading wagons, however, as I think there is a chance for Dunnstral to be scum. I simply think Nashville has a much higher chance.

[butterchurn]

It's a tough game. It feels like anything said gets drowned out either by the louder voices or by the many scum who can push back on things they don't like. It feels like there isn't a lot of breathing room. I don't blame people for sitting on the sidelines with their words, but there's too many who are sitting on the sidelines with their votes. We need to consolidate and work together if we want to move the game forward, and the longer we spend not doing that, the more demotivated people will become.

[butterchurn]

Having two wagons is generally pro-town, as you can more easily see who committed to which wagon. Better to have people who are currently off the two leading wagons commit to one of them.

[butterchurn]

Dunnstral? He's town.
Nashville Dreams? They're town.
Cat Scratch Fever? Also town.

Literally every single player with more than one vote right now is town.

Have you ever considered the possibility that you might be wrong? You were saying earlier that you believe your own reads currently are around average, or middle of the road. Which wagon has more people that you townread pushing it? And what makes your read more likely to be correct than theirs?

[butterchurn]

Well, that's better than the game stagnating, at least. It's interesting to see who jumped on. If this flips town, I think it's fairly clear what the purpose of the wagon was. I've generally townread Malcolm, and am not very excited to follow some of the names who are pushing the wagon, but if there's an especially convincing case that I've missed I could be convinced to join.

[butterchurn]

Why would you be willing to join if you're convinced (implying) that it's a wagon to save me? Why would you be willing to vote for a hypothetical town!Malcom but not a hypothetical town!Dunn?

I think if he flips town then it's likely a wagon to save you. If someone is able to convince me he's scum then perhaps he is unaligned with you. I've already said that I would be willing to vote for Dunn if necessary, but that I would prefer to vote where I believe there to be the highest chance of scum.

My reason for voting MalcolmTucker is that it's decent for play and his utter lack of influence in votes.

This is a fairly unconvincing reason considering many others are also lacking influence in their votes.

[butterchurn]

We were a confirmed counterwagon to scum!catboi. My wagon came up second. Under the implication butterchurn is making, I would at a minimum be unlikely to be a wolf. Yet, he continues to persist in his argument that a counterwagon spawning up after me must be to save scum!Nashville.

A wagon coming second does not make it a confirmed counterwagon. That's ridiculous, you can't actually believe that. I do agree that you are more likely to be mafia than wolf. My implication wasn't solely about you either, it was that there is almost certainly scum in either you, Dunnstral, or both.

This fundamentally misconstrues how wagons even form and why players react in the first place. His priniciples are inconsistent with that. If he viewed the counterwagons as a method to protect me, then he wouldn't be actively townreading all of the active posters, particularly those defending me. He'd be looking for evidence to confirm or dispel the theory.

How exactly are my principles inconsistent? And you're implying here that all of the active posters are defending you, which is a blatant lie. There are actually only a select few people actively defending you, and the only one that I can think of whom I townread is Flavor Leaf. Nobody has given me a good reason to townreaf you and so there's nothing for me to argue against. I've already argued against Flavor Leaf's reasoning, and he's the only one who has provided a solid rationale. There are far too many people who are just vaguely unwilling to vote the leading wagons for no good reason, and simply avoid talking about them. Those are the scum you should be looking for if you're town here. Malcolm has at least stated his townreads of the leading wagons even if he hasn't given strong evidence for them.

[butterchurn]

I don't like posts like 7068 in their vagueness. If you think certain players are scummy, call them out. What are you so afraid of? I also disagree with the idea that it's a wagon to save ND as Dunn was the leading wagon and there was 0 reason to start a new one.

I thought my reads had been stated clearly enough already that it was self-evident who I was referring to, but perhaps not. I'm suspicious of Nashville Dreams, MonkeyMan, and mastina, all of whom were early pushing the wagon. As for who it could potentially be saving, I didn't intend to imply that it was solely for ND, as I clarified later. I think it could easily be in response to either (or both) of the two leading wagons.

[butterchurn]

I don’t see any reason for butter to be so stuck on ND a scum here

I haven't seen anything that would change my mind, and as long as the wagon is active I would prefer to be on it.

[butterchurn]

Pressure on him is certainly a positive thing, but I think at the very least it's worth waiting for him to come back from the prod. It seems a little sketchy for the entire wagon to happen while he isn't even in the thread to respond.

[butterchurn]

What makes you think he's being replaced?

[butterchurn]

For someone who is supposedly focused on wagons and how people respond to them, you seem to have very little interest in seeing how the person being wagoned responds to it. Why are you so interested in forcing a wagon through on an unclaimed slot, most of which likely happened while he was asleep, judging by his usual posting times? I'm not "requesting a stall", this is basic level play that anyone should be doing as town. Don't pretend like you don't know better.

[butterchurn]

Really well-played by Titus and Klick especially. Sorry for the early tunnel, Nashville (Mala I thought was very towny on Day 1, so credit to both) but it goes to show how well you were playing that you were one of the few people I felt confident in you being town.

I quite enjoyed the Malefactor role and wish I had better reads so it could have been played better. I think it has a lot of potential.

[butterchurn]

i remember thinking early on that klick was the only person with good reads. he had one readlist that was really on point. i think he got sidetracked later but then got back there at the end

Klick's voting record early was crazy good. Their first 6 votes were on 5 different people. All of them were scum. Of their first 16 votes placed, the only town voted was Toogeloo (twice), and the other 14 votes were just going back and forth between 7 of the 8 groupscum, hitting all but tictac. Extremely impressive.