Not Quite Normal Multiball II (Game Over)

[butterchurn]

Hi catboi.

VOTE: Tracer Bullet

Obvious reasons.

[butterchurn]

i don't like how quickly you put Klick at E-10

that's too close to getting speed limmed for me

With the scum split up into two factions, they are unable to coordinate, and therefore speedlims are objectively better than they are in a more standard game setup because they are more likely to hit scum and less likely to be derailed. I think, based on that, that all of our eliminations should be speedlims.

[butterchurn]

i don't like how quickly you put Klick at E-10

that's too close to getting speed limmed for me

With the scum split up into two factions, they are unable to coordinate, and therefore speedlims are objectively better than they are in a more standard game setup because they are more likely to hit scum and less likely to be derailed. I think, based on that, that all of our eliminations should be speedlims.

Speedlims are never a good thing but you are trying to raise your profile so you I am guessing you are town.

It was a joke. I'm not sure what "raising your profile" means, exactly, but if I'm interpreting it correctly it doesn't sound like something you should be townreading me for. Explain this, please.

[butterchurn]

Being active in general is better than being a lurker. So I am giving you the benefit of the doubt for now. I knew you were joking.

Hm. But you didn't say that you were townreading me for being active. You said you were townreading me for trying to raise my profile. Scum are more likely to be the ones trying to raise their profile. Town just do it naturally. Why did you phrase it that way?

Sweet
Join me on catboi then

The one experience I have with you is you having very good reads (and also, he didn't respond to me when I said hi to him), so I'm tempted. If it's a serious vote, can you explain the reason?

[butterchurn]

Klick, you quoted my post in 53, but I don't see a response. Was there supposed to be one?

[butterchurn]

Sweet
Join me on catboi then

The one experience I have with you is you having very good reads (and also, he didn't respond to me when I said hi to him), so I'm tempted. If it's a serious vote, can you explain the reason?

Oh sweet! I vaguely remember your username as being pleasant to play with? Gonna have to go back and look at the game we were in at some point, a boost of confidence is always nice

You replaced in during 7p ELO and immediately caught the whole scumteam, including myself.

catboi's entrance feels very... limp? Make a few small comments, kinda game related but noncommittal, so you can't say he's not talking about the game but he's not actually moving anything forward. It's what I'd post if I wanted to start the game without eyes on me.

I think that's a fair reason.

[butterchurn]

Are you challenging me to a rap battle?

Everyone knows scum can't rap. Hardclear this

If that's the case, then rhyming "frown" with "thrown" may be a scumtell.

[butterchurn]

I'm curious why you responded to that but didn't have anything to say about the vote on you.

[butterchurn]

I'm curious why you responded to that but didn't have anything to say about the vote on you.

My real thoughts is that Catboi always votes me in games especially early so i don't find it super interesting or anything to talk about.
Also there was no reason behind the vote so why would you even expect me to have much thoughts regarding it?

I expected you to wonder at the reasoning behind the vote. It felt like a vote made to gauge response to me, and no response seems like the safe option that scum would be more likely to take.

[butterchurn]

VOTE: catboi

He seems defensive. My previous vote was a good vote as well.

This phrasing in the second sentence feels over-explain-y and self-aware. And hopping on to what looks like mostly a meme wagon, but doing so with serious reasons?

VOTE: MonkeyMan

[butterchurn]

VOTE: bnuuy

OMGUS's are scummy.

there is almost certainly scum hoping for a quicklim here

This seems like appeal to emotion and OMGUS.

In these posts, it doesn't feel like you are actually considering whether these things make the person in question scum. You're just going down a checklist of tells to call out to look like you're hunting.

[butterchurn]

VOTE: bnuuy

OMGUS's are scummy.

there is almost certainly scum hoping for a quicklim here

This seems like appeal to emotion and OMGUS.

In these posts, it doesn't feel like you are actually considering whether these things make the person in question scum. You're just going down a checklist of tells to call out to look like you're hunting.

Unfortunately I do not believe this is a scumtell for him

What about the downplaying it and brushing it off when called out for it, in 106 and 132?

[butterchurn]

VOTE: Wallflower

Fun fact, like 10 years ago in one of my first mafia games I played in character as Tracer Bullet, including a few edited comic strips to fit the text to the events in the game. I've used this as my avatar ever since.

[butterchurn]

VOTE: catboi

He seems defensive. My previous vote was a good vote as well.

This phrasing in the second sentence feels over-explain-y and self-aware. And hopping on to what looks like mostly a meme wagon, but doing so with serious reasons?

VOTE: MonkeyMan

I had the exact opposite reaction to that post lmao.

In a, scum who just wants to help an elim go through wouldn't care, but I could see these exact words resulting in a townie debating between their current vote and their new one, kinda way

I think scum are more likely to feel self-conscious about their votes lacking reasoning and about tracking their own progressions.

VOTE: bnuuy

OMGUS's are scummy.

there is almost certainly scum hoping for a quicklim here

This seems like appeal to emotion and OMGUS.

In these posts, it doesn't feel like you are actually considering whether these things make the person in question scum. You're just going down a checklist of tells to call out to look like you're hunting.

Why would scum need to do that in a multiball game?

Do you mean that scum wouldn't need to fake their scumhunting due to there being another faction? I guess I hadn't really considered the implications of multiball in that sense, I haven't played in one before.

[butterchurn]

I believe he is saying a Miller for the Mafia faction as opposed to a Miller for the Werewolf faction. Both would be roles aligned with town, if I'm understanding correctly.

But due to the randomization of the setup as stated in the modpost, I don't think such assumptions can be made.

[butterchurn]

No, he meant mafia with Miller role.

I guess I didn't understand the point of the post, then, but either way my point about setup randomization applies.

[butterchurn]

Tracer feels like he's trying to be intimidating in order to appear at ease and confident, and to give himself some room to make it hard on anyone pushing him. I find it hard to believe that posts like the following are genuine and come from a solving mindset:

tell me more scumtus

her scumgame is so predictable

Yup. I'm right. Tracer has zero curiousity and just cries OMGUS to deflect.

I'm curious why your scum game is so bad

How is this game at 11 pages already.

is this a scumclaim

discuss

Maybe this is just how he likes to play the early RVS stages (I get the feeling that this is a gimmick alt of an established player, some others seem to know who he is), but I think projecting this sort of attitude can be beneficial for scum getting their footing in a quickly-moving large game, and it feels a little off. I wasn't moved much by Titus' 202, but I think 228 is a fair assessment of Tracer's reaction. Slight scumlean here.

[butterchurn]

I admit I also find the hyperposting to be a challenge to deal with. I am used to 20+ player games (some 30+!), but most went at a much slower and more methodical pace than what seems to be the trend nowadays. Although really, the one-liner spam is in some ways a lot easier to digest than the dense wallposts, even if it is a difficult style to play around.

[butterchurn]

I admit I also find the hyperposting to be a challenge to deal with. I am used to 20+ player games (some 30+!), but most went at a much slower and more methodical pace than what seems to be the trend nowadays. Although really, the one-liner spam is in some ways a lot easier to digest than the dense wallposts, even if it is a difficult style to play around.

We can make a conscious effort to condense our posts if needded.

No need to change, I'm the one who needs to adapt. I don't mind it, really, it's just... different than what I'm used to. I'll just make sure to try to join any geriatric/mountainous games when those pop up.

[butterchurn]

This is probably an all scum hood. Sigh.

Is this referring to the hood (which definitely does not exist) with Flavor Leaf, Enchant, and Klick? Why is that all scum?

[butterchurn]

I said it was unusual so why is it unusual to say it's unusual?

You were clearly implying that it was suspicious. Are you going back on that now? Also, please respond to 325.

[butterchurn]

So... no response to 325, then?

[butterchurn]

This is probably an all scum hood. Sigh.

Is this referring to the hood (which definitely does not exist) with Flavor Leaf, Enchant, and Klick? Why is that all scum?

It just wouldn't surprise me since it's "not quite normal"

Your comment was based on speculation about the setup, then, and not about your suspicion on those players?

[butterchurn]

Well Flavor leaf is not pinging town, and they aren't town reading each other evidently.

This doesn't explain why you think that all 3 are non-town

all 3 what

MonkeyMan said that he thought your hood was an all-scum hood. When questioned on this, first he dodged it, then he dodged it again, then finally he walked it back to say that it was a speculation about the setup even when that doesn't make sense given the context. I think that saying something to appear to have a confident stance and then being unable to support it or softening that stance later is becoming a pattern with him, and I think it's highly suspicious.

[butterchurn]

Why did you only now say you were joking after being questioned on it at least 5 times?

[butterchurn]

Why did you only now say you were joking after being questioned on it at least 5 times?

I thought it was evident. How could I possibly know the alignment of 3 players on page 15 or whatever we are on?

Saying that the argument is that you knew the alignment of 3 players is a strawman. The question is if it's a serious suspicion, not if it's locking them in as scum. None of your posts on the matter up until now gave any indication that it wasn't a serious read. When explaining it earlier you also gave no indication that it was a joke.

[butterchurn]

I think that Save the Dragons and Well Done look the towniest to me so far. Save the Dragons seems casual and relaxed, but very willing to give reads and examine other people's reads. Doesn't feel like mafia posting just to fit in.

Well Done I think is taking a good approach to the game and their lines of investigation and questioning all feel towny. I also agree with the push on MonkeyMan, who I think is likely to be scum responding poorly under pressure.

[butterchurn]

Is it? It seems to me like he's just spitting out reads with no meaning attached to them and probably doesn't even realize that he scumread you earlier.

[butterchurn]

Is blue null?

yes

So I'm null and u do have enough info from me. Is this a situation where u explaining why would make sense of it?

You're somewhat more active than others but you don't strike me as particularly town or scummy.

It's already been called out, but I think this is proof enough that the readslist is manufactured.

[butterchurn]

ok so you're less active than I thought. Are you wanting me to scumread you?

That's not the issue here - if you're not aware how active a player is when making your list then your list clearly isn't as detailed or as coherent as you want it to appear to the rest of us.

It's an early read list. I'm not expecting it to be taken entirely seriously.

And the pattern continues.

[butterchurn]

Monkey can you explain the nullreads?

They're just early reads, there's not a lot to explain. It mostly means I don't have strong impressions one way or the other.

Why did you feel the need to create a read list when you don't want it to be taken seriously? I agree that nitpicking a readlist this early is not likely to be a very fruitful endeavor. Still, though, it's highly suspicious that when asked to justify one of the reads, you made up a reason. And it was only after that reason was shown to hold no water that you backed down and said the readslist shouldn't be taken seriously. If you truly thought that, that should have been your initial reaction. Instead you tried to justify it first, likely out of fear of being suspected.

[butterchurn]

i think hounding monkeyman over the blurred line of what is 'null' and what is 'needs more info' is nitpicking a little

I agree, but my concern is with how he chose to respond to the people poking holes in his list. I don't think it comes from town.

[butterchurn]

i'd also probably turbo lim mastina in a heartbeat at this point

I'm curious, why is that? I thought some of her reads seemed a little strange, but nothing that was clearly suspicious.

[butterchurn]

Because I don't have anything to hide.

But that's exactly the point. If you didn't have anything to hide, why not say something like "I don't know, I didn't have a strong impression of tictac, the difference between null and blue shouldn't be read into that much"? Instead you tried to come up with a reason to justify something that was arbitrary.

[butterchurn]

Is mastina the type of player to go for an attention-drawing gambit like claiming beloved princess as scum?

[butterchurn]

I've played a couple of games here but for the most part am new to this site and to the people on it, yes.

[butterchurn]

The scum are trapped like rats in a bucket I love it

Who are you referring to here?

[butterchurn]

I would like to know who you think they are.

[butterchurn]

I would like to know who you think they are.

why?
I find it kinda sus you are reacting this way

Because I think Tracer has consistently been posturing with confident stances and I don't think they're genuine or backed up by any serious reasoning. I think that saying "scum are trapped like rats in a bucket I love it" is not really a statement that accomplishes anything or moves the game forward unless he is willing to say who. And if he's town, there must be something that inspired him to say that in that situation. His response of "they know who they are" didn't do much to convince me that the original post came from any place of real town thought.

[butterchurn]

The word "scum" in that statement is already being used in the manner which you request.

[butterchurn]

- I'm not really vibing with the wagon on monkeyman - to me it feels like he's getting voted for having weird or irrational opinions, not necessarily scum-motivated ones. The stuff he says might seem bizarre but I feel like he actually believes what he's saying. The pressure on him feels opportunistic in nature.

I can't speak for everyone who is voting him, but I don't think that's an accurate assessment of my scumread on him, at least. It's certainly not about his opinions. I think the way he responds to questioning is slimy. He has consistently made statements that appear confident, but when asked about where the basis of each statement is coming from, he has at times weakly defended it, or clearly made up a reason to justify it, or dodged the question, until finally usually coming back to say that the original statement was a joke or that it shouldn't be taken seriously. Saying that about an RVS vote is fine. But about reads made on page 20 of a game? And even if that is the case, why take the extra step of trying to justify it initially? The approach just feels scummy to me, like he cares more about his own appearances than about whatever it is he's saying.

I did feel a little hesitant, since he is the highest postcount player so far (mostly due to the pressure on him) and so maybe there's just more things to pick on, and maybe he would have been more likely to quiet down and let things blow over if he were scum. I could see some of the votes like tictac sticking around from RVS being opportunistic. But that could always come from the opposite scum faction. I still like the chances of it being scum.

[butterchurn]

I didn't really understand the wagon on Klick or where it came from, so I took a look through their ISO to see if anything stood out to me.

Sweet
Join me on catboi then

The one experience I have with you is you having very good reads (and also, he didn't respond to me when I said hi to him), so I'm tempted. If it's a serious vote, can you explain the reason?

Oh sweet! I vaguely remember your username as being pleasant to play with? Gonna have to go back and look at the game we were in at some point, a boost of confidence is always nice

catboi's entrance feels very... limp? Make a few small comments, kinda game related but noncommittal, so you can't say he's not talking about the game but he's not actually moving anything forward. It's what I'd post if I wanted to start the game without eyes on me.

PEdit: yes, sorry, posting on phone, it likes to glitch

In general in the early game I joke around and banter, maybe float a serious read if something strikes my fancy, but otherwise hang back and observe until I find things more readable.

Which is why it came across as strange that you're accusing me of being "noncommittal" and "not advancing the game", because...I'm not sure what you're expecting on page 1?

When I read your posts it feels like you

want

me to think you're advancing things though.

The early read on catboi seems okay to me. It's not bad reasoning, even though I don't really pick up on the same things that they're noticing. It could be scum looking for an early read that they can sound confident about, but I can believe it being a genuine gutread. In addition, as some people have already pointed out, in multiball scum can be genuinely scumhunting. So, in this case, I find the early read to be fairly null. This post, I think, is where it starts to get a little interesting:

The main impression I get from catboi's latest posts is that he's actually rather uncomfortable with the votes on him

The context here is that catboi had picked up a few very pile-on type votes, following the push that Klick had started. I think this post feels, in a way, like it is just adding fuel to the fire to try to keep the wagon going. What's interesting, then, is how they vote bnuuy shortly after. I would like to know from Klick: Did something change between 135 and 155 for you, to make you no longer interested in continuing to add pressure onto the catboi wagon?

After that, they had a few small comments, including going somewhat against the grain and saying that they found mastina's entrance to be very suspicious. In summary, I see a player who doesn't seem uncomfortable or awkward, and feels very willing to poke at players who are considered to be strong or well-established in a way that I think can be town-indicative. The plausible counterargument is that a strong scum player may want to avoid hunting the "low hanging fruit" that could be the typical wagons on Day 1 in a larger game like this for the sake of optics, and that pushing at other more challenging targets could give the impression of genuine hunting (which would be fairly successful, since I had that exact response). I still come away from the reread leaning town, though. The one thing I would like clarity on is the switch to bnuuy, as I don't fully understand the timing of it or the reasoning behind it.

Next I want to look at the reasons people gave for voting them.

[butterchurn]

Looking at the Klick votes.

VOTE: Klick

FOS: SaveTheDragons

This appears to be the first vote on Klick. I looked through MonkeyMan's ISO, and I don't see much talk about Klick, except for where he said that it was "probably an all scum hood" (the hood of Flavor Leaf, Enchant, and Klick), which he later said should not be taken seriously. Or was a joke. Or something. He also had them listed in red in his readlist. The next mention of them is the vote. MonkeyMan, why do you find Klick to be suspicious?

It's also worth mentioning that in the next post, Cat Scratch Fever says that it's "not a bad vote". This sort of tacit support for a wagon without following it or giving any reason behind it is something that catches my eye. Cat Scratch Fever, what made you think that this was not a bad vote?

- I'm not really vibing with the wagon on monkeyman - to me it feels like he's getting voted for having weird or irrational opinions, not necessarily scum-motivated ones. The stuff he says might seem bizarre but I feel like he actually believes what he's saying. The pressure on him feels opportunistic in nature.

I can't speak for everyone who is voting him, but I don't think that's an accurate assessment of my scumread on him, at least. It's certainly not about his opinions. I think the way he responds to questioning is slimy. He has consistently made statements that appear confident, but when asked about where the basis of each statement is coming from, he has at times weakly defended it, or clearly made up a reason to justify it, or dodged the question, until finally usually coming back to say that the original statement was a joke or that it shouldn't be taken seriously. Saying that about an RVS vote is fine. But about reads made on page 20 of a game? And even if that is the case, why take the extra step of trying to justify it initially? The approach just feels scummy to me, like he cares more about his own appearances than about whatever it is he's saying.

I did feel a little hesitant, since he is the highest postcount player so far (mostly due to the pressure on him) and so maybe there's just more things to pick on, and maybe he would have been more likely to quiet down and let things blow over if he were scum.

I could see some of the votes like tictac sticking around from RVS being opportunistic. But that could always come from the opposite scum faction. I still like the chances of it being scum.

This is making me rethink a bit. Feel like Monkey has some suspect posts and a lot of stuff I don't really agree with, but not sure their approach so far is particularly conductive to someone who's mafia.

VOTE: Klick

Happier with my vote here for now.

MalcolmTucker here switches from a MonkeyMan vote to a Klick vote. The reasoning seems to come mostly in 419, where he describes the catboi read as reaching. I like seeing that the progression here is supported, and although the quoted section from my post was not enough for me to unvote MonkeyMan, I understand why he would rethink from it. In general, I think that rethinking in this way, when there is no real strategic benefit to doing so, is town-indicative.

Oh wait. I sense chakra energies vibrating in the air…
It’s telling me… to vote Klick!

VOTE: Klick

The last vote comes from NorwegianboyEE, who seems to just be joining the wagon for the sake of being on a wagon that isn't the leading wagon. There doesn't seem to be any reasoning given, but the fact that the thought process was so telegraphed and blatantly clear rather than trying to hide it in an attempt at faking a read somewhat cancels out any suspicion I would normally feel from this action. I notice that he's also switched already at the time of writing this.

If I had been guessing, I would have thought there were more votes here, but I can only find the three, so maybe it isn't as significant of a wagon as I thought it was. I think that Cat Scratch Fever's approval of MonkeyMan's vote made me think that the wagon was bigger than it actually is in number of votes. I don't think this wagon was necessarily a reaction to the MonkeyMan wagon, which is something that I was looking for, except in the sense that NorwegianboyEE didn't like the MonkeyMan wagon and wanted to find a different one, but in a way that seems like it could be a town thought process.

As a result of this, I think my read on MalcolmTucker has improved, and I have ended up with some suspicion on Cat Scratch Fever where I previously had none.

[butterchurn]

The context here is that catboi had picked up a few very pile-on type votes, following the push that Klick had started.

I think this post feels, in a way, like it is just adding fuel to the fire to try to keep the wagon going.

What's interesting, then, is how they vote bnuuy shortly after. I would like to know from Klick: Did something change between 135 and 155 for you, to make you no longer interested in continuing to add pressure onto the catboi wagon?

The bolded isn't quite where my head was at. By 135 I was already pretty satisfied with the progression of the wagon, and the post was more me trying to interpret something useful out of catboi's reaction to pressure. I don't really feel like I got that tbh, at least not yet, but I'm hoping this game start will be useful to look back at later.

I've sort of lost the plot of the game since around that time though, and I want to dive back in in a few hours when the kids are in bed

Thanks for the clarification. Do you think that catboi being uncomfortable with the votes on him was alignment-indicative, or is that what you mean by not having got something useful yet? Additionally, if the original catboi vote was a serious read, I presume the bnuuy one was as well since something was enough to make you switch. Was there a reason for your suspicion there?

[butterchurn]

What’s the vibe you’re getting in this game so far, Ducks?

Honestly? Uncoordinated.

Do you have any reads so far?

[butterchurn]

On my skim through, I did not like butterchurn's reaction to the Klick wagon with posts 689/714. Seemed like an overreaction given Klick had recieved all of three votes / possibly partner indicative.

I like to look at things in more detail when I don't understand them. It had felt like a wagon had suddenly picked up on Klick, in a way that felt like a deliberate counterwagon to MonkeyMan, and so I wanted to investigate. I learned that my perception of it may have been stronger than it was in reality, but I think the investigation still provided useful information for me. For example, it made me townread MalcolmTucker more than I had previously.

Wouldn’t it be funny if Mastina’s huge explanation of their usage of an system they cannot really describe in full because of hod complex it is, is just an fancy way of saying: "gut check"

I believe that's exactly what it is. I too have a complex, fancy, and unexplainable system for catching scum. Everyone does.

I don't like being on the same wagon as Tucker now that I think about it.

VOTE: MalcomTucker

Out of interest, what changed your mind re voting for me? A while back you seemed pretty comfortable with how I was playing, even when I was voting for you. Strikes me as a bit of an opportunistic vote here.

You seem to think anyone voting for you is opportunistic. I explained my reasoning and you can take me at my word, there is no hidden motive.

I agree with MalcolmTucker that this is untrue. I find your vote to be much more opportunistic than any of the others on him, and I think he was right to call yours out. Notice how he has not called out all of the votes on him.

------

I feel Menalque and NorwegianboyEE are both being somewhat obtuse in their arguments with MalcolmTucker on this page. NorwegianboyEE with saying that the push should be interpreted both as memey and as serious at the same time, and Menalque... actually, looking back, I may be reading too much into his posts. The line of questioning is fairly reasonable, it just felt a little bit like making Malcolm do busy work, but I could see it coming from town. This added pressure by both of them at first to me felt like it could be suspicious piling on to inflate the case, but on second thought I think I can believe that my viewing of it may be biased by my townread on Malcolm, and if NorwegianboyEE and Menalque are town who do suspect him, they may want to try to get scum to crack under the pressure. Either way, I think Malcom's responses are solid, and I'm somewhat impressed by the lack of frustration expressed.

------

Mastina, I would like for you to explain your reasoning behind your scumread on me.

[butterchurn]

nullscum:
CSF

I had forgotten about your earlier vote on Cat Scratch Fever. Do you have any thoughts on her more recent posts?

[butterchurn]

I’ve been transparent the whole way but you’re still explaining away my play as "off" and such to shade me and it does not make me feel better about you when you constantly try to portray someone that votes you in as bad of an light as possible. That makes me think you don’t actually want to sort me but just try to accuse me and see what sticks.

I also accused you of being contradictory with your characterization of your push as both memey and serious, and at different times expecting Malcolm to read it as both ways and criticizing him for not doing so. Does that affect your read on me, or does that only matter when it's someone you already suspect?

[butterchurn]

I'm also curious about that. I don't know if Tracer Bullet always plays like this, but I don't think there's been anything to townread in their play so far, and personally I find it a bit suspicious.

[butterchurn]

I think it’s an very odd thing to focus on. Why does this at all matter?
Do you think scum are more likely to play in this way, and if so why?

Potentially, yes, although I'm not so sure in this case. It felt like you kept moving the goalposts for how Malcolm should be interpreting your push, in a way that looked intentional to make him look bad or appear as the wrong one in the argument. It's possible that you were trying to increase the pressure on someone that you think is scum in order to catch them in a mistake, but the way you approached the conversation felt slightly more likely to be something scum would do.

[butterchurn]

I feel like going with the flow.

VOTE: Bnuuy

The way that you chose to announce this feels very self-conscious. I'm surprised that so many people are giving MonkeyMan a pass, I don't get it.

[butterchurn]

I feel like going with the flow.

VOTE: Bnuuy

The way that you chose to announce this feels very self-conscious. I'm surprised that so many people are giving MonkeyMan a pass, I don't get it.

Have you played with NoPowerOverMe before?

No, I haven't. A few people have mentioned that some aspects of his posting are just things he usually does, and so therefore they think he's probably just town, but I don't think those are the same things that I find suspicious.

[butterchurn]

Can anyone honestly say that bnuuy is a bad vote?

I think it's a very easy vote.

[butterchurn]

Catboi & Mena are mafia together btw

we start with the dangerous one first

VOTE: Catboi

I appreciate that you're giving some serious stances now, but why those two?

[butterchurn]

So, for whole game you used "Scum" 25 times, but now used "Mafia" term.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

That's interesting, potentially a good catch. They seem to have noticed the slip immediately and attempted to correct it, as well.

[butterchurn]

your townread of catboi makes absolutely no sense to me

and he should've jumped you for it

but he didn't

so probly scum together

This doesn't track. You first express this idea that catboi should be trying to kill Menalque in 477. Up to that point, Menalque had not expressed any townread on catboi, and in fact had been voting him for a while. The first time that Menalque expresses a townread on catboi is in 857, and catboi has not posted since that post was made, so he would have no opportunity to jump Menalque for it.

VOTE: Tracer Bullet

I think this is just more fake confidence, and probably intentionally trying to start this fight that has been happening ever since to distract everyone.

[butterchurn]

your townread of catboi makes absolutely no sense to me

and he should've jumped you for it

but he didn't

so probly scum together

This doesn't track. You first express this idea that catboi should be trying to kill Menalque in 477. Up to that point, Menalque had not expressed any townread on catboi, and in fact had been voting him for a while. The first time that Menalque expresses a townread on catboi is in 857, and catboi has not posted since that post was made, so he would have no opportunity to jump Menalque for it.

VOTE: Tracer Bullet

I think this is just more fake confidence, and probably intentionally trying to start this fight that has been happening ever since to distract everyone.

that's talking about catboi's read on mena

i'm now talking to mena about mena's read on catboi

learn 2 read

I linked the post 477 as reference for when this idea apparently began. You have clearly changed what you mean by it because the situation is now different. But the key point is that you said that Menalque and catboi must be scum together because catboi has not jumped Menalque for his townread, when the facts are that catboi has not posted since Menalque made his townread of catboi. Your reason is false.

[butterchurn]

it's literally not even a contradiction

you're just bad at basic logic and reading

978 is undeniably false. You keep dodging that.

[butterchurn]

I think it's probably both.

[butterchurn]

I'm sure that once people catch up and read the thread and see how the last few pages have progressed, from a detached point of view, they should see that the behavior is hard to imagine coming from town.

[butterchurn]

Okay, this is clearly personal, and regardless of your alignment, I think you should stop.

[butterchurn]

Okay, this is clearly personal, and regardless of your alignment, I think you should stop.

I pushed mena/catboi as a team and voted catboi

mena's been trying to make this shit personal for ???? reasons

I've been trying to get him to explain his townread of catboi

he continues not to.

so like lol sure

keep pretending we're the same

we're not.

I think if you come back to the thread later and read your own posts with a level head you will see that you were the one taking shots at people and making things personal and generally being antagonistic. But you probably already know that, and this was probably intentional to cause chaos and rile things up, so it probably doesn't matter what I say anyway.

[butterchurn]

me saying catboi is a more dangerous player than mena

is not taking a shot at mena

it is because catboi is probably the best scum player on the site

the fact that he is somehow turning that into me insulting him

is a fucking joke and shows just how thinskinned he is

You can praise catboi’s scumplay without putting down Mena in the same breath, which is what you’re doing by comparing them like you have.

it's a simple discrediting technique used to help win 1v1's.

A lot of newer overly confident players tend to use that kind of thing as their bread and butter to win 1v1's.

It sounds like that should be scum-indicative. Why do you have a townread on them?

[butterchurn]

That's one of those things that I think comes across as scummy, but is actually townie, if that makes sense.

I believe it is harder to play that way as scum than it is as town because the purpose of saying those words become less intentful since they're meant to help your scum game.

A lot of times I've seen scum players try to play like that, and they don't know how to switch off from it, and it just seems fake. While it's not out of the question, and exactly why I didnt put them as townie as menalque/wallflower, because I dont know TB like that, and for all I know, they could be good enough as scum to do that.

But from what I've gathered on personality, specifically when they brought up posts such as "Flavor did this as town. he's not posting much here. He's scum" that's a inexperienced type of black/white comment, if you were to believe that he actually believed that.

They also actively meta'd my scum game and acted like they knew exactly how I played as scum off of 1 game that was more of an anomaly of a game than most.

So while they could have been used as scum to discredit, i think it's more likely town, in a tunnel on catboi, used weak discrediting techniques to try to powerwagon Catboi.

But they also actively were going to hurt their momentum, so them leaving is actually a bit stronger play, regardless of alignment, but nonetheless, I can't say it's impossible that they are scum, but based on the way I am perceiving their personality and play level, I think it's more likely they are town than scum.

I don't know them personally, but my understanding from context of other people talking about them is that they are an experienced player who is good enough to play that way as scum. A lot of their overconfidence and dismissiveness this game did feel fake to me, which is a big part of the reason why I'm voting them.

[butterchurn]

Reading over the last few pages, I find Flavor Leaf's reads on the gamestate to be insightful and I generally agree that Wallflower doesn't look scummy here to me. I don't think I agree with the conclusion that catboi is scum taking advantage of that, though. I don't see much scummy out of catboi so far, and I think the initiative he has taken towards solving when he is present is town-indicative, even though I haven't always agreed with his reads.

[butterchurn]

Only did a cursory skim of his scumgame in a mini normal, but I think butterchurn is town here.

awesome. This one's big for me.

Butterchurn, similar to Menalque, Catboi made a comment like this towards you early, and while you understand and liked what I was saying, you were hesitant to go on Catboi because they made you feel good about them. they helped you trust them.

Interesting. If that's true, I think it probably did work. I've been townreading catboi for most of the game so far. I guess what makes me less sure on that point, though, is how he didn't really direct much towards me. It was a stated townread directed at the thread in general, and he hasn't seemed to go out of his way to interact with me since then. Asking for thoughts on things from a townread, making them feel like they matter and are important to the game, trying to solve together, buddying up to someone -- those are the type of things that I think of when I think of someone trying to pocket someone else. I don't feel like there has been a lot of that.

[butterchurn]

Okay let's talk about catboi

Spoiler: meow

I have thought about this

while at work, while on the bus home, while heating up my frozen lentil soup in the microwave, watching it spin round and round... round and round... and just like that my thoughts on catboi have spun round and round.. round and round...

the key question is.. does catboi actually play like this as scum?

and I don't know for sure. Right now I'm still thinking.. yes, but I don't really share Flavor Leaf's certainty.

so I'm gonna lay it all out there and we'll go on a journey together! and maybe you'll think I'm scum tryharding or whatever. I don't care.

(I do care but I'm gonna pretend I don't)

Actually let's do it pros and cons style. Where the pros section is the part of the microwave that thinks catboi is scum and the cons section is the part of the microwave that thinks catboi is town

THE PROS

(imagine the 21st Century Fox music playing)

Right now I'm looking back over catboi's entrance and it still makes me feel all twitchy.
The whole premise of catboi's reply to Klick's early expressed suspicion is "what exactly are you expecting out of page 1 posting?", which makes logical sense sure, but there's this excessive fixation on it. Not only is there the initial question in Post 70, but then there's the need to explain why this is a normal part of catboi's gameplay in Post 77, quote their posts in disbelief in Post 88 and conclude in Post 100 that it feels like a serious reach with a "*shrug*" that is so incongruent with the preceding series of posts, it appears like a forced attempt to

appear

relaxed. (In particular, noting that Post 100 occurs after a series of votes on Catboi)
But the issue here is that I'm pretty sure it's a totally normal thing for people to start the game off by "suspecting" someone with weak reasoning (how else does a game get moving?), hency my question at the time, asking what exactly catboi was expecting of Klick. It seemed to be very obviously that sort of weak early suspicion that only means marginally more than RVS. So why did it get catboi's whiskers in a twist???
Early Day 1 wagons are also a thing that happen all the time, so what is Post 109 if not an attempt to look like they are trying to solve the game. I don't think an experienced town player gets a silly early Day 1 wagon on them and thinks "there is almost certainly scum hoping for a quicklim here".

*

Lower impact stuff but I thought that catboi's reads felt conveniently positioned as going against the grain, and avoiding being part of any main wagon. For example the resistance to the Malcolm and MonkeyMan wagons, as well as Catboi's main expressed scumreads being people that weren't widely suspected. I wanted to watch this for longer to see how much it was a recurring pattern, and obviously it could just be coincidence, but it was just a thought I had.

*

Then there's the return post-catboiwagon 2.0. Post 1184 still seems totally off to me. Catboi in the post clearly knows that Tracer is gone. The approach of needing to discredit a player who has replaced out feels desperate to me, where I would expect town (particularly town that knows they haven't been their usual activity level) to feel more confident in being correctly read as town. It's as if catboi is compensating for something.

Now, the push on me is what actually has me a bit conflicted.
I didn't like Catboi building their read on me based on me not explaining why they seem panicky to me. -Especially in the moment, I think that sometimes someone will just feel a certain way to you without the words necessarily being there to express it yet. I'm still a bit annoyed that I apparently needed to explain that.
Also, it follows on from the situation with Klick and then with Tracer of Catboi being unable to just let it go when someone suspects them.
And in regards to the vote, based on Catboi's own self-described approach in Post 1206, it seems premature. Catboi asked how they seemed panicky to me, not why I thought they were scum.
And then finally 1224 - implying that I got scared and was running off, after I indicated that I did not have time for more in that moment, from a slot that has also had limited time since gamestart. HMMM

And now we get to....

THE CONS

(dun-dun-DUNNNNNNNNNNNN)

Now I realise there's going to be a lot less here, but the reason for doubting my read is actually a pretty big reason.

Maybe I'm biased, but the overarching impression I get from catboi's push on me is that it's really sloppy? If everyone starts wagoning me then I guess that'll prove me wrong, but in quoting my iso in Post 1208 there is actually a fair number of posts that imo contradict the point made by catboi in the post, which I think wagoned scum making a push would be a bit more careful about. I originally thought it scummy that catboi hadn't read my recent towngame (see Post 1214) before going all in with a vote on me, but then I thought that actually scum would probably think it pretty conspicuous that they hadn't done that, when they'd used meta to read other players unfamiliar to them (e.g. butterchurn) earlier in the game. Also Post 1250 claims that they have more to say when they clearly don't (otherwise they would have said it to try and convince FL later on). But again, this is more townie than scummy imo because town when in SUSPICION MODE will think their reasoning is better than it is while scum will more likely be more aware that they don't have much.

Also i don't really agree with FL's pocket theory.

SO

my conclusion is that, either way, catboi is probably a bit rattled for whatever reason, because I think the suspicion on me hasn't been particularly well thought out regardless of catboi's alignment. and the question is whether it's rattled town or rattled scum. I cooould see the sloppy suspicion making sense from scum needing to DO SOMETHING and being INVESTED could be a new thing to try? There was also always the chance that it would get me all riled up and lead to a 1v1 which people just dismiss as TvT (it seems to happen a lot). OR, catboi just really doesn't like being pressured as either alignment and there are other reasons where things went a bit loopy. IDK. I'm leaning scum, but I'm interested to see what other people think.

Okay that was a lot of words about one slot. If any of you are jealous and want the same done for you then it's probably not happening


PEDIT: I WANT A VOODOO COOKIE

I think this make a few interesting points. I did notice that catboi's reads were often going counter to what is popular at the time, which is actually something that I sometimes look for as something that very experienced players do intentionally as scum. It makes it look like you have unique, independent thought, and it gives you a lot of room to work with, without needing to face the facts of any of your strong reads actually getting eliminated and having it revealed whether you were right or wrong. That said, it's also done because it often effectively imitates said player's town game, so it's not necessarily a tell on its own. The other key point is about catboi acting "off" or "weird" somehow when it comes to pressure on him. I have picked up on this as well, but again, I don't think this necessarily makes him scum -- he said himself that he doesn't always respond very well to pressure as either alignment. So I think I could see the argument for catboi being scum, but I just don't quite feel it myself. When I go back and look at his posts, they just feel more like town to me.

In all though, I think this shows a level of nuance and honest thought process that would be beyond what I would have expected for Wallflower to pull out as scum, so even if I'm not convinced on catboi (I notice that a few others had this same sentiment), I do find myself leaning town on Wallflower.

I'm surprised, because most newer players tend to hate the way FL plays and want to murderise him for it

I found FL's posts so far this game to be fresh and compelling (except for the ones where he's talking about how good he is, but we can ignore those). It seems like he views the game differently than most, and I believe that having the most different angles from which to view the game at allows us the most chance of figuring out where all those angles line up to triangulate the position of where scum are hiding. I'm curious, what did you think about the points regarding catboi's alleged pocket attempts?

I have to admit I don't really like Wallflowers non confrontational approach so far.

VOTE: Wallflower

How many times are we going to let MonkeyMan get away with just joining whatever hot new wagon pops up? Wallflower was 3rd in his townreads in his readlist in 468 (3rd out of 22! That's extremely high!), and I don't see any post where he mentioned her between then and when he voted. He also joined the wagons on MalcolmTucker and bnuuy when those started going up (the latter with an awkward, self-conscious statement of how he is going with the flow). I don't feel like he seriously believes in any of the pushes he is making (when was the last time he talked about Malcolm or bnuuy after switching off of them? Any attempts to re-evaluate or sort?), and is just trying to sheep, not stand out, and isn't really doing any scumhunting of his own. This also doesn't mesh well with some people's earlier stated reasons of why he could be town, which is that he often draws attention to himself and is limbait. Here, though, he seems to have made a deliberate attempt to alter his own playstyle to stay more under the radar ever since the focus died down on him.

I think I shouldn't have ever let myself get convinced that he could be town here.

VOTE: MonkeyMan

[butterchurn]

I'm pretty sure I haven't stayed under the radar so this is nonsense. And I'm definately not altering my playstyle. You're reference to my limbaity-ness just seems like an excuse to make a scummy push on said limbaity player.

This isn't true, your presence in the thread has clearly diminished since people stopped pressuring you as much, and you have made multiple attempts to just "go with the flow". My reference to you being allegedly "limbaity" was only brought up to refute some people's use of it as an excuse for why you shouldn't be suspected, and to point out that your attempts to go with the flow appear to be intentional to avoid being a noticeable target for elimination, which is not something that matches up with the given description of your play. Instead of this deflection, can you instead explain your progression on Wallflower? Why did you find them to be so towny earlier in the game? How does your given reason of a "non confrontational approach" match up with the events in the game so far? I don't think it does at all, given Wallflower's willingness to get in a fight with catboi. That seems like something that a player who wants to play non confrontational would avoid at all costs.

[butterchurn]

i feel like scum would be self aware enough not to just jump on any wagon that comes along

I don't think that someone who is apparently often suspected as town would suddenly become good at looking town when they're scum. Players like that who are experienced enough often will use their town play to their advantage to act blatantly suspicious as scum and people will just call them limbait and townread them for it, just like people are doing here (newer players who fit that mold may make an attempt to look town or coast when they are scum, and usually it's really obvious. MonkeyMan is not a new player). He also

was

self-aware, I don't know why anyone who isn't self-conscious makes that statement of "I feel like going with the flow".

I don't feel like Wallflower was fighting with catboi, as she got upset and said "why so agressive?" or something like that when confronted. I felt Wallflower to be town early based on her activity but I'm not liking her responses and her general attitude so far.

Did you miss her large case on catboi? It's not like she was just deflecting any fight and avoiding getting into a 1v1. She was clearly very willing to do so.

[butterchurn]

scum are more hesitant and i feel like a scum would be like "i probably shouldn't just jump on every wagon that comes along, i might become a target" i feel like town are more likely to do "scummy" things like that because they're not trying to not do it if that makes sense.

i get that monkeyman seems like "lim bait" but i don't really feel like he's scum being blatantly suspicious i feel like he's town just going with the flow

I guess I just feel like him trying to look like he's town going with the flow is blatantly suspicious, so maybe that's where the difference lies. I also don't think he would have that thought process, because he might not even take that step to realize that it could look bad. I think that he thinks that going with the flow is more likely to get him townread.

[butterchurn]

Why are they counter wagons to protect catboi and not to protect MonkeyMan?

[butterchurn]

Does anyone here think Titus did not in fact roll an scum role this game?

I've liked most of their posts so far. It's hard for me to judge hydras as I'm not used to the concept, but the ones from Titus have looked a little bit more suspicious to me, which is making it hard to tell. If I'm wrong on MonkeyMan then I think they look a bit worse, but I don't really think that I am.

[butterchurn]

i think titus is scum and mala is town

Agreed.

[butterchurn]

Does anyone here think Titus did not in fact roll an scum role this game?

I've liked most of their posts so far. It's hard for me to judge hydras as I'm not used to the concept, but the ones from Titus have looked a little bit more suspicious to me, which is making it hard to tell. If I'm wrong on MonkeyMan then I think they look a bit worse, but I don't really think that I am.

I understand MonkeyMan pushing...but I feel like he's super scummy town, and scum he's just there. He's been putting themselves out there, i feel, in a way where Scumkey just would have been dumb to do so.

Maybe. I've been led astray by too much meta before rather than just focusing on what I see in front of me, and so I've been wanting to try to avoid it, but I guess it may be necessary in this case.

[butterchurn]

Can we lim bnuuy now?

VOTE: bnuuy

My fade options for the day are so far.

Catboi > Nashville

Can you talk more about Nashville? I feel like you've been somewhat indirect in your suspicions on them. I would like to see a case, if you have one.

[butterchurn]

I can't really say anything is very scummy or townie about them.

How about the fact the majority of their ISO is just commentary on the game or unrelated things rather than actually sorting people or hunting for scum?

Despite the fact that they’ve been pretty active throughout

Alright, I think this is a good enough point.

VOTE: Bnuuy

[butterchurn]

The scum do also have reduced nightkills.

[butterchurn]

I don't find that bnuuy's latest posts are out of the range of what I would expect them to do if they were scum here. The wagon feels like it fell apart a little quickly. Maybe just because I was raised in the mafia of an earlier time, but I tend to have more inertia than is typical on this site these days. It takes me longer to turn towards scumreading or voting someone, and once I do, it takes me longer to turn away. These sorts of speed wagons rising up and falling away are not really something that's familiar to me. It feels closer to chat mafia at times. Which is not always a bad thing, but it may mean that I should be relying a bit more on gut reads. I agree with Menalque, though, that there's no point in wagoning for pressure if the pressure drops away at the slightest hint of a towny response. This makes me feel like some of the people riding the wave of the wagon didn't genuinely want it to go through, and were just waiting for an excuse to jump back off.

[butterchurn]

Catboi Cover Crew:

Menalque
Butterchurn
Nashville

i feel like there was one more....

You are scum reading them?

Nah, I'd actually say the majority of them are town, or at least not aligned with Cat, but I don't think all of them are town.

One is probably a Catboi partner, but I do need to find the fourth one that I'm forgetting.

The fourth that you mentioned earlier is Malcolm. I'm not really sure if I belong in that group, from my perspective at least, but I guess I can see how you would put me in there. I for the most part found your reasoning on catboi to be fairly compelling, my hesitancy comes from the fact that by my own read of his posts, he looks town. For some background, in my previous game with him, I thought he was town for a while, and then got very paranoid when it came to ELO and nearly voted him, but eventually came back around to be convinced that he was town. It's a very different context since this is a 23 player game and that was a 9 player Newbie, but I do think it's believable that Tracer, as catboi suggested, could have had some of that same paranoia. I don't know if yours quite qualifies, but a few of your posts, like 1283, do have a bit of that feeling, like you're trying to find reasons for why he could be suspicious because you're worried about the possibility. But then... some of the reasons do seem valid. I don't know.

[butterchurn]

It's already been mentioned, but this progression makes no sense:

I’m gonna have to think over my thoughts on Catboi.

On one hand, they are definitely a smooth talker, but they’re pinging me like crazy, especially that big post.

They’re saying a lot of things that are like…true, good statements, but not necessarily townie statements.

I also don’t personally like the Wallflower push because I think myself, Norwegian, and Mega are the worst ones on the wagon, but Wallflower has the most to go against and likely the least pushback.

I also see Wallflower as super townie, even if Catboi isn’t scum.

I still don't get why Catboi is pinging you, especially given the wagon states.

Well Flavor leaf is not pinging town, and they aren't town reading each other evidently.

It'd be more concerning if Flavor Leaf was pinging town right now.

stop pocket

I was saying this as a joke before, but when I look back on it, and the way people react towards Catboi, this is exactly what I feel they were doing.

In addition to me pointing out why it would be beneficial for them to be in the spotlight for at the time they were, they have key figures defending them without even being able to reason why they are defending them.


Like Menalque and Nashville. And Cat Scratch also said it was lazy.

Which is interesting to me, because it’s being cut down.

I'm stating it now. Catboi is telling honest truths, scumhunting and they keep being resurrected as wagons to scummy people.

@Menalque - Do you think there's a chance you're pocketed by Catboi? I went back and checked some things, and their first post in the game was an RVS vote towards you.

The fact you are town reading them so strongly for reasons I'm not sure why, not that I'm confident in Catboi scum by any means, but their first post acknowledged you, which is a direct way to interact with another player, and that can easily lend to trust for being acknowledged.

I think Catboi started the pocket on Menalque from RVS, and went with it more than 'planned' it.

This just feels like you tunneling on Catboi by discrediting people who defend him as pocketed or reasonless rather than reevaluating your own position.

I'm starting to feel ill so I must question my reads from this morning.

Can someone briefly give me points where they feel I'm wrong besides catboi is too town to be town?

~Titus

You showed up late. You need to look at that bnuuy wagon.

I will but I feel that it's another counter to catboi. That makes me think town before reading.

However, I am open to being wrong. It's also getting to the point where there are so many counters that catboi may need to be eliminated as catboi couldn't live until elo.

~Titus

The final post does not follow at all from the previous ones. I'm fairly sure this isn't a hydra head issue, as based on context it appears that all of these posts were made by Titus. Nashville Dreams originally was talking about how all the wagons springing up were counters to MonkeyMan... it took me a while to find the post, since it was made by Titus on the wrong account and thus doesn't show up in the Nashville Dreams ISO, but it's here:

I'm seeing a bunch of counterwagons spring up to MonkeyMan576 and I am not a fan.

I really feel that the only explanation here is that Titus forgot which player she was claiming the counterwagons were for, or somehow got the names mixed up. The latter seems very unlikely, the former is possible as town, I suppose, but feels much more likely to happen as scum.

[butterchurn]

Sure.

VOTE: Nashville Dreams

[butterchurn]

Whoa that was easy

I reread MonkeyMan's ISO today and felt like earlier I may have had some... is there an equivalent term here for "rogue-colored glasses"? I guess it's just a fancy way of saying confirmation bias, but I do like that phrase.

Anyway, I think if MonkeyMan is town, Nashville Dreams could have been scum trying to take advantage of that. And really, even if he's not, they could be opposite factions. The catboi defense seems overly confident. The cherry on top is that I think you and Norwegianboy are likely to be town, so I'm pretty happy to be joining you.

[butterchurn]

noooooooooooo wallflower is town

[butterchurn]

I'm not very familiar with Save the Dragons (I think I saw him in a Newbie game that I read once?) but just from play he seems quite town here to me.

[butterchurn]

I'm not sure if anyone here knows who this is, but you remind me of Jon Bois. Which is a compliment, by the way.

[butterchurn]

I'm not sure if anyone here knows who this is, but you remind me of Jon Bois. Which is a compliment, by the way.

I know the funny sports guy but haven't followed him since he started doing videos more than writing stuff. And also because I stopped wanting to visit SB Nation.

The videos are great. In this case I think the resemblance is mostly to his twitter, though.

[butterchurn]

And since momo flakes more often as scum and momo need not read his role PM to learn that he is scum, trying to clear yourself from momo having not read the role PM doesn't actually work. In fact, it's the opposite; it makes the slot more likely to be scum--not less.

Maybe this is a discussion for elsewhere, but I'm not sure why people are allowed to just consistently replace out whenever they learn that they will be playing scum, if that is actually such a significant pattern that it's worth suspecting their replacement over.

Can you give some posts as examples of Butterchurns half-solviness Mastina.

Literally their entire iso?

Like, genuinely. Entire iso is this.

If you want me to prove this is not hyperbole I can quote examples of it but it genuinely will be basically every post I've read so far.

(Also, not tonight, I'm not caught up and need to go to bed.)

I would like to see examples when you get a chance, yes. Your reasoning uses a lot of words but those words mean nothing if they're not backed up by evidence. From my perspective, it looks like you are suspecting me because I have different opinions than you on who is scum (although we do agree on MonkeyMan -- or we did, at least, now I'm not as confident). Looking at your readlist, I am leaning more towards town on Flavor Leaf and MalcolmTucker, who you suspect, and I'm leaning towards scum on Tracer Bullet and Nashville Dreams, who you think are town. Saying that there's just "something a little off" or "something missing from being pure" is a fairly empty and easy thing to say, and I think you could convince people that you feel that way about anyone when it isn't supported by examples and explanation.

Scumreading butterchurn is unironically the towniest thing mastina has posted

Why do you say that? I don't know mastina very well, is this something related to her as a player?

Sure.

VOTE: Nashville Dreams

now I don't trust you so much either bud

is there a reason for this?

why in the hell were they so eager to just listen to another person without a single grain of salt?

I was already considering voting there. If you look at my post directly before I voted, I had just talked about something that I found suspicious from Nashville Dreams. In a larger game like this one, I'm also usually happy to join a wagon that is being pushed by people I townread if I don't have somewhere that I really want my vote to be instead, and I townread or townlean all of Save the Dragons, Norwegianboy, and Wallflower, who were the three on the wagon when I joined.

[butterchurn]

The claim means it’s not really worth pushing Mastina today, but there’s some icky stuff there.

It seems like the claim protects her from people ever wanting to push her, correct? Even past the first Day. In later Days a Beloved Princess death may be even more harmful.

[butterchurn]

Like to me, Mastina’s catch up looks like damage control.

I kind of agree, but I wasn't sure if I was reacting to what seems like an ill-founded suspicion on me. I was also hesitant because it seems like a few players have found her to be townie so far. I'm especially curious about catboi's read.

[butterchurn]

Your reads look like they come from a perspective of having too much information involved in forming them and of not being entirely sincere/genuine, while still being largely sincere/genuine.

In other words: the exact profile I'd expect from a scum player in multiball.

Speaking of that, it took me a moment to realize this as I'm still getting used to the implications of multiball, but I don't think this reason tracks. If I were scum, I would only be informed on the alignment of 3 other players, out of 22. And yet here you say that my reads look like they come from a perspective of having too much information involved in forming them. That would make sense as a reason to scumread someone in a normal setup, but you specifically say that it is the exact profile you would expect from scum

in multiball

. Unless you are talking about exactly 3 of my reads being based on too much information, I think this reason is fabricated.

[butterchurn]

damage control for what

I'm not sure what exactly Flavor Leaf meant by that, but my interpretation was that I don't think she's gotten as townread as she may have expected to from her entrance. A few people have, but I don't think it's consensus. She also has been behind for most of the game so far, and if she were scum, she would need to start exerting some influence on the thread before town leaders take things in the correct direction.

[butterchurn]

i mean there's 9 scum you can be like there's definitely scum in any 4 people and probably hit

90.2% chance of hitting one, I think? It's been a while since I've done that type of math.

[butterchurn]

Yeah, I read that as him saying that Day 1 could actually be the most beneficial time to eliminate a Beloved Princess, because there are the maximum amount of town role actions available. So, I guess the risk is mitigated if she is a town Beloved Princess, and there's also a good chance of her just being scum. I'm not really sure how accurate that is, but I did have a thought along those lines as well.

[butterchurn]

So that's where I'm at, would prefer Catboi, but will go Mastina.

On second thought, i'm not sure i trust Mastina because last game with scum!Mastina went like this:

Mastina: I'm going to town and scumread people for their one-liner RVS posts and make a big reads list.
Mastina: Norwee is top town.
*Dips from game for a long time*
Mastina: Cephrir is scum for a vague reason. I'm going to harp on this vague scumread for the rest of the game.

This game:

Mastina: I'm going to town and scumread people for their one-liner RVS posts and make a big reads list.
Mastina: Norwee is top town.
*Dips from game for a long time*
Mastina: Butterchurn is scum for a vague reason. I'm going to harp on this vague scumread for the rest of the game.

I JUST DON'T TRUST IT ANYMORE.

Can you link this game? I'd like to compare, because if this is an accurate portrayal then it's pretty interesting.

[butterchurn]

i mean there's 9 scum you can be like there's definitely scum in any 4 people and probably hit

90.2% chance of hitting one, I think? It's been a while since I've done that type of math.

I think you picked up Bob's Brain.
We have around a 39% chance to hit a non-town faction.
35% to hit Hushies or Mom's Minions.

I think you misunderstood. I'm surprised you thought I meant the chance of any one person being scum, because obviously that would not be that high. The 90.2% was the chance that any randomly chosen group of 4 has at least 1 scum in it, in this setup.

[butterchurn]

Controllllll

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88500

Thanks. On a first glance, that does have a similar feel to it. Interesting then that in her first readlist, the 3 people she said she was most suspicious of were her 3 scum partners. I feel like that's important context. I doubt she would replicate that exactly, and in fact, I know she didn't, since I was one of her top 3 in this game. Here it was me, Flavor Leaf, and MonkeyMan.

[butterchurn]

I'm kinda shook that two people seriously thought that I thought we had a 90% chance of eliminating scum today. Do I come across as that dumb?

[butterchurn]

I was including all 9 anti-town and using a pool of 22, to not include whoever's perspective it is from. Not very important, I know, but I do believe my math was correct.

[butterchurn]

I was including all 9 anti-town and using a pool of 22, to not include whoever's perspective it is from. Not very important, I know, but I do believe my math was correct.

Explains why your Humbling Bundle isn't paying out. there's 23 in this game.

If I'm choosing a group of 4, though, I'm only choosing from a pool of 22, because I know I'm not one of the scum.

[butterchurn]

Okay, a lot to catch up on, I don't think it would be terribly useful for me to do like a quote response wall like I was planning to do, so I'll try to summarize thoughts and can expand on thins if anyone is interested:

- I was already townreading Norwegian before this, but I think his attempt to get catboi to join on Nashville around post 2257 and beyond is actually extremely towny. Norwegianboy was just listed by catboi as a top scumread. Trying to convince catboi to vote a specific person among catboi's scumreads is immediately going to draw suspicion, unlikely to be successful, and in fact is most likely to cause the opposite of the intended effect -- make catboi more hesitant to vote where he is being told to. I don't think that Norwegianboy, as scum, is likely to make this attempt. As town he isn't really going to care about how it is interpreted or consider that catboi will find this suspicious, so he has no reason not to. He just wants to try to convince people to join him on the wagon of someone that he thinks is scum.

- I actually mostly agree with Flavor Leaf's assessment of catboi's large case, 2360. I read it a few times and it is very well-reasoned and well-explained. I think the most salient points are about how Flavor Leaf is focusing on pre-flip associations, planting seeds, and gauging where to go based on where there is momentum. However, my impression so far is that this is simply how Flavor Leaf likes to play. He is controlling, charismatic, and has a strong focus on analyzing how the gamestate shifts and moves as a whole, and will take action to alter the gamestate. Now, I haven't played with Flavor Leaf before (although I did read his scum guide), so again this is just my impression, but I would be willing to bet that a key difference between Flavor as scum and Flavor as town is that as scum, he takes action to alter to gamestate to shift it to his team's favor. As town, he takes action to alter the gamestate to feel it out and see how everything responds, because reading that movement is how he likes to solve the game. To me, so far, his actions in this game feel like the latter. catboi's explanation of his play is accurate, and it's true that he is relying a lot on preflips, but I'm not very confident that doing so is something that is more likely for Flavor Leaf to do. I can accept the argument that preflips are generally dangerous and potentially bad play, but town does it all the time. They see associations, and latch onto them in an attempt to make sense of a game where they are uninformed. Scum will do it too, but usually to gain an advantage. Maybe I'm being tricked by the charisma, but when I read his posts I believe Flavor Leaf does genuinely see these associations and that's why he's calling them out. Now the question is if I agree with Flavor Leaf that catboi's analysis is something that comes from him as scum. On that, I'm not sure. I feel like I can see the town in his responses to the pushes on him, it feels like he is genuinely concerned that people are scum taking advantage of things. I am concerned that his push on Flavor Leaf seems to be for things that to me look mostly like just Flavor Leaf things, though. Not willing to feel strongly about a read here yet.

- In response to catboi's tictac vote, since he asked for opinions from people he townreads: personally I struggle to discern alignment from low volume posters. Maybe that means I should be giving them more attention than I am, but tictac seems fine to me so far. 1794 was not great, but I think their earlier follow-up to catboi not answering their question was towny. I definitely think that Nashville Dreams is a more promising place for toDay, and since it's a large game we have enough time that there's very little chance that we will just lose to lurking scum.

[butterchurn]

- I actually mostly agree with Flavor Leaf's assessment of catboi's large case, 2360. I read it a few times and it is very well-reasoned and well-explained. I think the most salient points are about how Flavor Leaf is focusing on pre-flip associations, planting seeds, and gauging where to go based on where there is momentum. However, my impression so far is that this is simply how Flavor Leaf likes to play. He is controlling, charismatic, and has a strong focus on analyzing how the gamestate shifts and moves as a whole, and will take action to alter the gamestate. Now, I haven't played with Flavor Leaf before (although I did read his scum guide), so again this is just my impression, but I would be willing to bet that a key difference between Flavor as scum and Flavor as town is that as scum, he takes action to alter to gamestate to shift it to his team's favor. As town, he takes action to alter the gamestate to feel it out and see how everything responds, because reading that movement is how he likes to solve the game. To me, so far, his actions in this game feel like the latter. catboi's explanation of his play is accurate, and it's true that he is relying a lot on preflips, but I'm not very confident that doing so is something that is more likely for Flavor Leaf to do

as scum

. I can accept the argument that preflips are generally dangerous and potentially bad play, but town does it all the time. They see associations, and latch onto them in an attempt to make sense of a game where they are uninformed. Scum will do it too, but usually to gain an advantage. Maybe I'm being tricked by the charisma, but when I read his posts I believe Flavor Leaf does genuinely see these associations and that's why he's calling them out. Now the question is if I agree with Flavor Leaf that catboi's analysis is something that comes from him as scum. On that, I'm not sure. I feel like I can see the town in his responses to the pushes on him, it feels like he is genuinely concerned that people are scum taking advantage of things. I am concerned that his push on Flavor Leaf seems to be for things that to me look mostly like just Flavor Leaf things, though. Not willing to feel strongly about a read here yet.

Missed a couple words here.

[butterchurn]

Not liking the automatic shade that seems to be getting dished out for quieter players being suspected/being suggested as possible wagons. Quite frankly I'd rather we force some lurkers to do some actual work and defend themselves instead of the same arguments that don't appear to be convincing anybody rolling on page after page.

I agree, I thought the Nashville Dreams wagon was being somewhat discredited in this manner.

[butterchurn]

Poor newbies underestimating the scum game of a guy whose schtick is that he likes to talk about how good he is as scum

If this is in response to me, I don't think this is a very fair read of my take on the situation. I have a lot of respect for his scum game (as well as yours, which is part of why I'm going to confidently call either of you town at this point), but I feel like in your case on him you are missing one of the key things that you always talk about -- why these things make him scum. I gave reasons for why I believe the actions that he is taking are not things that he is more likely to do as scum. I'm open to hearing more of your reasons. If you are town here, this isn't the response that I would have expected.

[butterchurn]

VOTE: Butterchurn

I got scum pings on reading this slot like half an hour ago I just remembered

Going to ISO and see if I can substantiate, but I am reminded of this Mini Normal in which Butterchurn was mafia: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88570

What about my play reminds you of that game?

I think Mena has strong malefactor equity too.

What made you switch from thinking Flavor Leaf was malefactor to thinking that Menalque is?

[butterchurn]

I think that SCP entered and quickly figured out that they could get townread by Flavor Leaf if they agreed with him on catboi and agreed to scumhunt together. That's why the reasoning for catboi being scum keeps changing, because the reasoning doesn't matter. The reasoning is added after the fact to justify the read.

[butterchurn]

Well Done, I think you and Sword of Ducks are both town.

Sword of Ducks, could you unvote Well Done?

Sword of Ducks, what do you think of the reads I've presented, I want your perspective on which ones you most vibe with which ones you disagree with.

Point 1: No.
Point 2: No.
Point 3: Link to reads?

[butterchurn]

I think that SCP entered and quickly figured out that they could get townread by Flavor Leaf if they agreed with him on catboi and agreed to scumhunt together. That's why the reasoning for catboi being scum keeps changing, because the reasoning doesn't matter. The reasoning is added after the fact to justify the read.

For what it's worth I didn't really get this impression

Maybe I'm missing context from the monastery, but based on what has been posted in the thread, that's what it looks like to me.

[butterchurn]

Yeah, honestly, if Catboi flips scum, Butter's next, tbh

I jumped the gun with this.

Butters still town for me. I’ve thought this and used this as reason for scum pushing me before.

I just got a bad ping that they were trying to defend Catboi, and maybe they were, but i still can’t shake their defense on me earlier when I don’t think it benefited them as scum

If you and SCP have your minds set on something, I don't think there's anything I could say that would convince you otherwise, so if I were scum with catboi here I don't think that defending him would be a wise choice. I'm just looking for scum, and the way that SCP positioned themselves shortly after entering looked opportunistic and suspicious to me.

[butterchurn]

VOTE: Butterchurn

I got scum pings on reading this slot like half an hour ago I just remembered

Going to ISO and see if I can substantiate, but I am reminded of this Mini Normal in which Butterchurn was mafia: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88570

What about my play reminds you of that game?

I think Mena has strong malefactor equity too.

What made you switch from thinking Flavor Leaf was malefactor to thinking that Menalque is?

I would still like a response to this, SCP.

[butterchurn]

butter - I see an implication that you have catboi as a townread in recentish posts but you have not stated it. What IS your read on catboi?

I had catboi as a townread early, found Flavor's initial case compelling, and found catboi's response to some of Flavor's casing less than compelling. However, I struggle with the read as when I read catboi's posts, there's a lot of them where it just feels like a genuine town reaction. I know that he's a strong scum player and likely is good at creating that sort of reaction, so I should be careful to use that sort of gutread as a basis. I also disagree with some of his pushes, such as the ones on Norwegianboy and Wallflower. I would say that at this point I have him as slightly leaning scum, but not as strongly as most of my other scumreads.

[butterchurn]

You have him leaning scum?

Did you have him leaning scum when you voted Monkeyman and Tracer(my slot)?

I don't remember the exact timeline of events off the top of my head, but I believe that I voted Tracer before Flavor made his case on catboi. That was the first time I started to question my townread. So I believe the answer would be no.

[butterchurn]

I would still prefer a Nashville Dreams elimination, to be clear.

[butterchurn]

actually on second thought butter doesnt need to be aligned with catboi. i'm reading thru the game I have and they tend to have TMI issues.

I don't really buy that. I would agree that was a key issue with my dayplay in that scum game. Perhaps the most memorable thing, even, although Klick also accurately said that I seemed to be focused more on convincing people and less on analyzing things, or something like that. The point is, though, that I don't believe that you were originally reminded of that game upon seeing my play, and then went back and read it and noticed one of the most surface-level things about it, and that changed your mind. You also never explained what about this game reminded you of that game. The fact that you seem to have gone back searching for something to substantiate that, only to find that it didn't actually match at all, makes me think the original read was fabricated.

[butterchurn]

SCP how exactly are you reading ND?

Spoiler:

Bnuuy is a lazy wagon that will probably go through.

Stand by they're probably town.

Nashville wagon is even lazier - you cant eat your cake and have it too

So FL in our monastery claimed to be in a masonry - it is entirely possible he is a malefactor here and the play lines up with that theory - so I will likely be ignoring the slot going forward unless they deliver a scum.
They also contradicted their claim of 3 hoods at the start saying he does not have another hood.

If they try to claim anything more than that what is claimed from them - do not counterclaim it.


I believe their push to go for active posters who, I am currently townreading, is actively trying to push scum agenda but I am not sure as its day 1 and I could be wrong but I wanted to float the theory so people don't just let this happen and are not aware of the potential variables in play here.

I think I am now more comfortable with a Nashville wagon -> however I want them to come back and post before I commit.

I am mainly otherwise looking at : butterchurn, bunny, klick, tictac

btw @Malcom, how do you feel about tictac wolf?

butter/tictac/klick/bunny - ww
enchant/mena/cass/catboi - maf

this is what i reached in the monastery. mena could swap out for one of my other PoE reads - I think they are most likely malefactor.

Don't forget this one:

ok after some thought, here is a GtH list of people I think could potentially contain all scum:

tictac
butterchurn
bunny
klick
menalque
enchant
cass
nashville
csf

I think it's notable that the lists here and in 2746 are the same names, except Nashville gets replaced with catboi. SCP's posting seemed to indicate that Flavor Leaf had changed their mind on catboi (remember, they originally had catboi as a townread), and I would expect that read change to alter some of their other reads, since they are relying a lot on associatives and preflips. It didn't.

[butterchurn]

butter - I see an implication that you have catboi as a townread in recentish posts but you have not stated it. What IS your read on catboi?

I had catboi as a townread early, found Flavor's initial case compelling, and found catboi's response to some of Flavor's casing less than compelling. However, I struggle with the read as when I read catboi's posts, there's a lot of them where it just feels like a genuine town reaction. I know that he's a strong scum player and likely is good at creating that sort of reaction, so I should be careful to use that sort of gutread as a basis. I also disagree with some of his pushes, such as the ones on Norwegianboy and Wallflower. I would say that at this point I have him as slightly leaning scum, but not as strongly as most of my other scumreads.

I should address this: Why exactly do you have me as leaning scum now? Because you disagree with some of my scumreads?

It's not exactly that I disagree with the reads, it's more that I found the pushes on them to be suspicious, especially the one on Wallflower. A lot of your reactions have felt genuine, but some of the ones in response to her feel forced. And as explained in 2462, I felt like your case on Flavor Leaf was too focused on how Flavor Leaf was capable of doing certain things as scum, or how there was a possible scum motivation behind his actions, but not about why those actions are

more likely

to come from him if he's scum. With most people, I wouldn't find that subtle difference in a case to be suspicious, but I've played with you before and I know that is a sticking point for you. It's something that I would expect you to be thinking about, especially when looking at a strong player like Flavor Leaf, but perhaps not something that you would care to emphasize if your only goal was to convince others. I also found your response to my thoughts to be rather poor and not at all how I would expect you to respond as town. In the grand scheme of things, these reasons are not terribly strong. I don't feel like I have a terribly strong read on you. If I were sorting into town, null, and scum, I'd probably put you in null. But if I were sorting into town, nulltown, nullscum, and scum, I'd put you in nullscum.

[butterchurn]

butter is angling to place a vote on me btw - its being telegraphed in trying to find things that are "scummy looking" that are just normal town progression and framing it as scum.

Trying to call me a liar for how I reached my reads is quite frankly the most blatant way they've pushed the idea that I am scum here without explicitly stating it.

Yes of course I see something that reminds me of something else and I later on go and verify taht for myself because I'm not going to trust the human brain to 100% remember shit.

There is a lot of putting words into my mouth that don't exist - trying to imply things that I directly already said were not true such as claiming my catboi read shifted due to FL.

Which in a multiball is ridiculous -> I'm going to push legitimate scumreads as scum. Butter is trying to accuse me of TMI in a place where TMI is not applicable because they are stuck in a singleball scum mindset.

I'm frankly not good at casing people but I know blatant when I see it and butter has oozed scum since I read their ISO.

I'm not planning to place a vote on you at this time. Starting a wagon on you at this point doesn't seem beneficial or likely to go anywhere. I still prefer a Nashville Dreams elimination. I do scumread you, and that's not new. I scumread Tracer Bullet as well. Don't act like you've caught onto some plan, I think my reads have been fairly clear, and you have done nothing to improve my read on your slot. You still haven't said what in my ISO you found scummy. You seem like the type of player who will spam the thread with new points to drown out any legitimate criticism. I never accused you of TMI either, so your point about me putting words in your mouth is ironic.

[butterchurn]

butter is angling to place a vote on me btw - its being telegraphed in trying to find things that are "scummy looking" that are just normal town progression and framing it as scum.

Trying to call me a liar for how I reached my reads is quite frankly the most blatant way they've pushed the idea that I am scum here without explicitly stating it.

Yes of course I see something that reminds me of something else and I later on go and verify taht for myself because I'm not going to trust the human brain to 100% remember shit.

There is a lot of putting words into my mouth that don't exist - trying to imply things that I directly already said were not true such as claiming my catboi read shifted due to FL.

Which in a multiball is ridiculous -> I'm going to push legitimate scumreads as scum. Butter is trying to accuse me of TMI in a place where TMI is not applicable because they are stuck in a singleball scum mindset.

I'm frankly not good at casing people but I know blatant when I see it and butter has oozed scum since I read their ISO.

I'm not planning to place a vote on you at this time. Starting a wagon on you at this point doesn't seem beneficial or likely to go anywhere. I still prefer a Nashville Dreams elimination. I do scumread you, and that's not new. I scumread Tracer Bullet as well. Don't act like you've caught onto some plan, I think my reads have been fairly clear, and you have done nothing to improve my read on your slot. You still haven't said what in my ISO you found scummy. You seem like the type of player who will spam the thread with new points to drown out any legitimate criticism. I never accused you of TMI either, so your point about me putting words in your mouth is ironic.

you arent trying to sort me rofl.

You aren't trying to sort me. You came in deciding to scumread me and have failed to support that in any way, and are twisting things to fit the narrative that is convenient to you. I was already scumreading your slot, but was willing to give the replacement a chance, and then you immediately start doing scummy things. I'm not sure how you expect me to sort you any differently than I was before you came in.

[butterchurn]

butter - I see an implication that you have catboi as a townread in recentish posts but you have not stated it. What IS your read on catboi?

I had catboi as a townread early, found Flavor's initial case compelling, and found catboi's response to some of Flavor's casing less than compelling. However, I struggle with the read as when I read catboi's posts, there's a lot of them where it just feels like a genuine town reaction. I know that he's a strong scum player and likely is good at creating that sort of reaction, so I should be careful to use that sort of gutread as a basis. I also disagree with some of his pushes, such as the ones on Norwegianboy and Wallflower. I would say that at this point I have him as slightly leaning scum, but not as strongly as most of my other scumreads.

I should address this: Why exactly do you have me as leaning scum now? Because you disagree with some of my scumreads?

It's not exactly that I disagree with the reads, it's more that I found the pushes on them to be suspicious, especially the one on Wallflower. A lot of your reactions have felt genuine, but some of the ones in response to her feel forced. And as explained in 2462, I felt like your case on Flavor Leaf was too focused on how Flavor Leaf was capable of doing certain things as scum, or how there was a possible scum motivation behind his actions, but not about why those actions are

more likely

to come from him if he's scum. With most people, I wouldn't find that subtle difference in a case to be suspicious, but I've played with you before and I know that is a sticking point for you. It's something that I would expect you to be thinking about, especially when looking at a strong player like Flavor Leaf, but perhaps not something that you would care to emphasize if your only goal was to convince others. I also found your response to my thoughts to be rather poor and not at all how I would expect you to respond as town. In the grand scheme of things, these reasons are not terribly strong. I don't feel like I have a terribly strong read on you. If I were sorting into town, null, and scum, I'd probably put you in null. But if I were sorting into town, nulltown, nullscum, and scum, I'd put you in nullscum.

I think your expectations of me as town are out of touch with reality and you're holding me to odd standards. I'll be perfectly honest: I find wallflower's playstyle obnoxious and it's really colored my reactions. Your only experience with me is n the newbie queue where I

try

to tone it down but out here I don't really hold back, so if someone is making attacks on me I feel are crappy I'm not going to hold back. I think your evaluation of my case is just plain wrong? I know I said we were at an impassse on this but given it's the basis of your read...I thought the way he was trying to get mastina voted was +scum, and that his explanation for his scumread on her did not have sufficient strength to justify voting her for elimination. That's actually really simple to grasp and I feel like even if you say "yeah I don't see it" I don't know why you would consider it

scummy

. And if you think it's

scummy

that I sniped at you because you disagreed with me on FL, then I'm not really sure you understand my playstyle that well.

For the points about different playstyle, that may be true. When I was trying to sort you in that game I did read through a couple of your games outside the Newbie queue, so I don't think that's my only impression of your play, but you're right that it is the main one. I can accept that there could be differences from what I expect town!catboi to do from what town!catboi is actually like. As for the case, I just went and read it again to see if I was missing anything. I don't think I was. Your reasoning for why his mastina scumread does not have sufficient strength is that without the preflip associations, there isn't much support to his scumread. But I don't think you can take away the preflip associations, because that is how Flavor Leaf plays. So I think that point is wrong. And most of the post is fitting his actions to a narrative of how he may act when he is scum. I don't see anything in there that is explaining why he is more likely to do it as scum. To me, that set off alarm bells, because it made it feel like you cared more about coming up with a narrative and convincing people that Flavor Leaf was acting in a scummy way, and not like you actually came to a conclusion that his behavior was more likely to come from scum. Your response I found suspicious because it was dismissive and not engaging with any of the criticism, which made it feel like you only cared about your goal of convincing people and not about whether your reasoning was good.

[butterchurn]

butter is angling to place a vote on me btw - its being telegraphed in trying to find things that are "scummy looking" that are just normal town progression and framing it as scum.

Trying to call me a liar for how I reached my reads is quite frankly the most blatant way they've pushed the idea that I am scum here without explicitly stating it.

Yes of course I see something that reminds me of something else and I later on go and verify taht for myself because I'm not going to trust the human brain to 100% remember shit.

There is a lot of putting words into my mouth that don't exist - trying to imply things that I directly already said were not true such as claiming my catboi read shifted due to FL.

Which in a multiball is ridiculous -> I'm going to push legitimate scumreads as scum. Butter is trying to accuse me of TMI in a place where TMI is not applicable because they are stuck in a singleball scum mindset.

I'm frankly not good at casing people but I know blatant when I see it and butter has oozed scum since I read their ISO.

I'm not planning to place a vote on you at this time. Starting a wagon on you at this point doesn't seem beneficial or likely to go anywhere. I still prefer a Nashville Dreams elimination. I do scumread you, and that's not new. I scumread Tracer Bullet as well. Don't act like you've caught onto some plan, I think my reads have been fairly clear, and you have done nothing to improve my read on your slot. You still haven't said what in my ISO you found scummy. You seem like the type of player who will spam the thread with new points to drown out any legitimate criticism. I never accused you of TMI either, so your point about me putting words in your mouth is ironic.

you arent trying to sort me rofl.

You aren't trying to sort me. You came in deciding to scumread me and have failed to support that in any way, and are twisting things to fit the narrative that is convenient to you. I was already scumreading your slot, but was willing to give the replacement a chance, and then you immediately start doing scummy things. I'm not sure how you expect me to sort you any differently than I was before you came in.

i think going back and reading an old game of yours to get a better grasp of your meta and cross reference is actually exactly doing sorting but hey keep trying to make up shit
see how far it gets you

lim all liars!

I don't, because to me it looks like you were looking for something to substantiate your initial claim, only to realize that there was nothing to support it, and had to pivot to find a different reason. And I think that me analyzing your progression of reads to see if they come from genuine town or opportunistic scum is actually exactly doing sorting but hey keep trying to make up shit

[butterchurn]

You didn't drop the case though, you just went and found another reason. It's the same thing you did with catboi. That's what I find suspicious.

[butterchurn]

towncase yourself if you think you're so blatantly town that it should be impossible for me to think you are scum upon reading your ISO.

This is a strawman, I never said it should be impossible for you to think I'm scum. I specifically asked you multiple times what in my ISO made you suspicious so that I could evaluate whether it was a genuine read or not and you have given me exactly nothing, and have deflected and distracted constantly.

[butterchurn]

You didn't drop the case though, you just went and found another reason. It's the same thing you did with catboi. That's what I find suspicious.

me, having a game up my sleeve where I do exactly this on replace in to case scum after I nailed them

Uh, cool? So you got lucky once. You make up reasons to justify a read, and when that reason is disproven, rather than re-evaluating and adjusting your conclusions, you instead fit new evidence to match the conclusion you already decided on. You understand that's not an effective way of hunting scum, right?

I will give you tonight to think about how you fucked up trying to come after me in this way.

But also -> the perspective that you think scum need to be making shit up.

i think you are scum for scumfuckily defending another slot I think is tied to you. not because of how I think you are approaching your reads - other than the one on me which is a poor omgus to discredit me.

oh boy i feel so giddy having so many caught scum right now in my hands

How can it be an OMGUS when I thought your slot was scum before you entered? You're doing enough to discredit yourself on your own, I don't think you need my help. It's also asinine to suggest that it's invalid to suspect someone for making things up (while accusing me of the same thing, by the way!). Scum who are genuinely hunting scum still need to "find" a wider pool of scum than actually exist. It's related to your criticism of catboi's pool for being too narrow. Scum absolutely do have to fake pushes on people, and additionally, any scum who is just 100% genuinely hunting all the time is absolutely failing at working towards their win condition. Scum should be choosing pushes to advance scum wincon, not just hunting the other faction. There is no doubt in my mind that you

already know this

because you are smart enough to, and that is yet another reason why I know that your reasons here are made up.

@Butter - For what it's worth, they did explain their read pretty well in the monkery, but I do think SPC is falling apart in the game thread.

You've been very fence sitting, and you've been defending both Catboi and myself. I put you in the Catboi Cover Crew even way back when.

I see a very clear obvious link between you and Catboi to the point I specifically don't think it's happening.

It doesn't mean anything to me if they explained their read well in the monastery (well, I guess it means a little, if you and Save the Dragons think it was a genuine case, but still). I want to see their reasons posted in thread because the ones that they've given so far are bad or fabricated. That said, saying that I've been fencesitting on the you/catboi issue is probably pretty accurate. I think it would be irresponsible of me (although very easy if I were scum) to act as if the issue is an easy one to sort.

Yeah UI mean that's just the problem I think your criticism doesn't change my thinking that much, sorry. "that's just how he plays" doesn't do a lot for me because in general I feel he has a stronger thought process as town where here it felt like the push on mastina was entirely unsavory. Even now, I can see we're getting

absolutely nowhere

with this, so I think you can kind of see why I responded the way I did? I think you're being naive and your counterarguments don't really hold water for me. I'm not obligated keep fighting with you over that read and it doesn't make me scum.

That's fine, we don't have to continue. But this response does much more for me than previous ones, actually, so I think we are getting somewhere.

[butterchurn]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: catboi

Your last two posts are joining the Nashville Dreams wagon with a naked vote, and then joining the catboi wagon with a naked vote. Do you have any thoughts to attach to either of those? It would be appreciated.

[butterchurn]

Why did so much of that post focus on why you should not be to blame for catboi being eliminated when that wasn't ever in question or even brought up at all? Seems like a strangely pre-emptive defensiveness.

[butterchurn]

I believe with reasonable confidence right now SCP vs butterchurn is TVT and that SCP is biased because their frame of reference is butterchurn's scumgame and the similarities they're seeeing are just playstyle markers.

You've given some decent enough reasons to be townreading me, but I'm not sure why you're confident on SCP being town. Not much of anything from either player in the slot looks like town to me.

[butterchurn]

Enchant is at the top of my list of scummiest low-content posters, actually. Out of the vague grouping of Enchant, Toogeloo, tictac, and MegAzumarill, I'd put them roughly in that order, almost entirely based on gut since I don't have much else to go on. cassowary is slightly outside of that group since although they have the fewest posts, when they have been here they've posted content... but while I'm on the subject, a few of the posts strike me as slightly suspicious, looking back. Anyway. I'm fairly confident in Nashville Dreams being scum, so I don't think there's anyone whose elimination I would support over that at this time, but I at least like Enchant better as a second wagon than catboi. I don't love eliminating someone with so little content and associatives (and someone that I have a relatively low confidence that I'm able to read correctly due to the lack of content), but if we are going to eliminate one, Enchant would be my preferred.

[butterchurn]

I believe with reasonable confidence right now SCP vs butterchurn is TVT and that SCP is biased because their frame of reference is butterchurn's scumgame and the similarities they're seeeing are just playstyle markers.

You've given some decent enough reasons to be townreading me, but I'm not sure why you're confident on SCP being town. Not much of anything from either player in the slot looks like town to me.

In addition to the fact that I think TB's posting was (begrudgingly) town-motivated, I have experience with SCP, the aggressive scattered reads style and constant re-evaluating is way closer to their town game than their scum game. I feel like replacing in as scum they'd be a lot lazier given the gamestate. I'm also in agreement with the Enchant read and while that's not everything in multiball, they could still me a mafia monk hunting wolves, I don't think they

bother

trying to argue for that wagon as scum? They just keep him around to elim later.

Well, they could be partnered with Nashville Dreams, and know that if they get a different elimination today then that slot will likely either be replaced, resetting a lot of people's reads (even though it shouldn't, I think it happens), or will come back and have a chance to wriggle their way out of a Day 2 elimination. Or they could have just been offering up a compromise because they realized a 1v1 would not be advantageous for them. But for the main point, I'll accept that you have a better meta handle than I do on both of the mains of the players in the slot.

[butterchurn]

Also, they way they expressed frustration at not being able to articular their scumread on me when I was critixcizing them for it felt real. It's kind of gross AtE to use if scum and I don't want to think they'd go that road.

I would hope not. Maybe not a point worth delving into, but is this not the player who proudly displays quotes in their signature saying that they are "good at manipulating" and "will kill your pet cat to win a game"?

[butterchurn]

mastina being pre-empt pissed at catboi flip kinda townie actually.

I felt it was over the top, and a disproportionate reaction to what was actually said. It seemed over-acted.

[butterchurn]

I had started to get a bit suspicious of cassowary when I was looking at the low-content players earlier, but the latest catchup post is good and towny. Their reads are also fairly close to my own with only a few exceptions, which I think is a good sign.

[butterchurn]

This is obvtown Nashville by the way.

They’re forcing themselves to read and act because they’re under fire.

I really don’t believe ScumNashville would have just been so unaware, even if they were busy.

I called their posting that everyone was pushing earlier scummy looking but that it’s not coming from scum.

I don't see why that makes them town.

You guys want something spicy.

I actually think Mastina has more chance at flipping scum than Catboi does.

I agree, although it is somewhat spicy coming from you, since it seemed like your mastina read originated based on your catboi read. You think it's possible now that mastina is scum while catboi is town?

[butterchurn]

Titus and Mastina ganged up on me once and power misfaded me once. I think they were both town.

I am one of the most familiar players with Titus here, and this is not Titus scum.

Generally when I get these type of reads on Titus, it’s possible I’m pocketed, but they’ve done absolutely nothing to pocket me here.

That in itself is a sign that Titus is not scum.

Titus actively went against me early, and i against them.

That only happens when we’re town.

You've talked multiple times about how you recently were in a game where Titus pocketed you. She's definitely aware that you know about this and will be looking out for it. You think it's impossible that she went out of her way to play counter to your expectations of what she does as scum? My understanding was that Titus was a pretty strong scum player who would think about that type of thing.

[butterchurn]

omg can we please end the day alreadyyyyy

You're currently voting tictac as the only vote on them.

[butterchurn]

The opposite--I think she would think about that type of thing.

And I absolutely don't believe she has thought about it this game.

Why are you confident that she hasn't thought about it this game, if you think that typically she does think about that type of thing? The game where she pocketed you recently finished, correct? So it should still be freshest in both of your minds. Now seems like the time when it would be most likely that she would alter her play based on that.

[butterchurn]

I had started to get a bit suspicious of cassowary when I was looking at the low-content players earlier, but the latest catchup post is good and towny. Their reads are also fairly close to my own with only a few exceptions, which I think is a good sign.

What’s specifically towny about it?

They felt generally unconcerned with pushing any sort of narrative, and it didn't feel like a busy work catchup done to look good. It felt like their reads were naturally evolving in response to new events in the thread, especially the one on Flavor Leaf, rather than them fitting evidence to match wherever they want to be pushing. All of those are things that I think are more likely to come from town than from scum. I also thought their reaction where they thought Nashville Dreams was most suspicious but realized maybe they should give them a chance to catch up was towny. Do you disagree?

[butterchurn]

You're skipping the step where you evaluate whether their resurgence into the thread was towny. It wasn't.

[butterchurn]

<snip>

This is a good post! It also looks to me like Nashville Dreams weren't able to maintain internal consistency and forgot who they were supposed to be sussing by confusing Monkeyman with catboi.

I'll keep reading, but based on the most recent VC and scrolling through the last few pages, it doesn't look like the wagon on them developed much further, which is kind of odd, because I feel like this is more solid that anything else that's happened so far this game.

this is pockety


just off rereading the ISO, I already found CSF really weird and I didnt actually read into them yet.

I actually agree with this and had that reaction at the time. A few of their posts have felt off to me. It made me a little concerned about Nashville, but they could just be different factions if scum.

[butterchurn]

I want to eliminate the weak fish first since the scum will be shooting at the strong fish and we want them to potentially hit eachother

This is the first good reason I've heard for eliminating a lurker.

[butterchurn]

this makes me feel Nashville Dreams is the wagon that Catboi's team tried to get.

TownNorwegian probably just the power that they sheeped onto.

Cat Scratch Fever also had a couple of instances of pointing people towards my reasoning for Nashville scum. At the time I was happy with it because I believe I'm correct in my read there, but looking back I can see how it could have scum motivation behind it, using someone else's reasoning to promote a wagon.

[butterchurn]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking as well.

[butterchurn]

I don't want to assume anything about catboi, since he's made it very clear that he does not appreciate that, but I think I must be missing some context for this and it can't all be coming from this game. Wallflower has spent a lot of time looking at catboi this game, yes, but it has been game-related. None of it looks at all like targeted harassment to me (not to invalidate catboi's experience of it, I just mean that I don't think Wallflower should be discouraged from playing this game of Mafia in the way that they're playing it). The points have been mostly fine, and it hasn't crossed over to criticizing the player instead of the play. catboi has crossed that line multiple times, and I'm actually impressed that Wallflower's responses thus far have been pretty civil.

Anyway. The game-related takeaway from this for me is that if what I perceive as a reasonable case and game-related discussion is being perceived as harassment, that makes me not want to touch catboi with a ten-foot pole. And then that made me realize that if he's scum then that's probably exactly his goal. So. Hm. And yet... maybe the emotional appeal is just working on me, but I still think it's more likely that he is just genuinely tilted at some triggering factor that I don't have the context to understand.

[butterchurn]

wanna know whats really annoying

those who are pushing "us" as a lurker there is other players who have little posts as well and aren't having fire placed under their ass

You keep minimizing the case against you as just being about being a lurker. I don't think that's remotely close to the bulk of the case for most people voting.

[butterchurn]

I agree that Titus' posts are more suspicious than yours, and that you are more likely to get townread (although I at least did not find the things that you picked out on your earlier catchup to be very towny). To be frank, I think you're aware of this, and it feels like it benefits your slot significantly in terms of people's suspicion on it to have you be the main head presenting yourself to the thread. I could easily see that being a strategic decision as scum. Titus has been here briefly at times, so it isn't like she's incapable of responding to the suspicions made about her, she has just chosen not to.

[butterchurn]

I believe Nashville is hard town through wagonomics + my actual read + not thinking the scum case on them at all makes them scum.

None of the arguments for why Nashville is town have done much of anything for me, I don't think they really hold any water. The wagon argument has already been disproven, and you said yourself your post on it wasn't very good, so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up as an argument again.

[butterchurn]

I'll join bnuuy if Nashville isn't going to go through, but I really think we're letting Nashville scum slip away for no good reason at all.

[butterchurn]

Which wagon argument, that there are scummy people on Nashville's wagon? What's been disproven about it?

The argument basically was that too many people support the elimination for it to be scum. Which is ridiculous as you could make that argument for any elimination that goes through in a game this large. He'll probably say it again about bnuuy if that wagon continues to gain traction.

[butterchurn]

Which wagon argument, that there are scummy people on Nashville's wagon? What's been disproven about it?

The argument basically was that too many people support the elimination for it to be scum. Which is ridiculous as you could make that argument for any elimination that goes through in a game this large. He'll probably say it again about bnuuy if that wagon continues to gain traction.

Minimizing it.

That is 1, hear it? ONE ARGUMENT

MASTINA HAS TOWN CASED NASHVILLE.

I have given my thoughts on the slot.

Do not minimize.

I was clearly not referring to your entire towncase. I'm aware that you have other reasons for townreading the slot. I was mentioning that I don't think that one argument is a good one, and MonkeyMan asked me to expand on that.

[butterchurn]

To me odds are far greater on Catboi being scum than bnuuy being scum, and that's just the way the cookie crumbles. Catboi gets a free pass wheras this is like the 20th time people are trying to elim bnuuy, but he's still standing.

catboi is not getting a free pass, and is probably the most-discussed slot in the game so far. Some people think he's scum. Some people disagree. Some aren't sure yet. Some think that if he's town, he has a lot to offer in terms of solving, and it could be worth seeing what he does. People have different opinions. People disagree. That's how the game works.

[butterchurn]

blank boy

You've been asked politely to stop. You've been asked firmly to stop. Other people have additionally asked you to stop. You are being a child, throwing a temper tantrum when he doesn't get his way. Stop it.

[butterchurn]

I am in a manic phase. you have not seen the level of tantrum i will throw

Then maybe it would be best to step away from the thread for a bit. Unless you are the malefactor, in which case feel free to continue making it more and more obvious. In case you couldn't tell, I'm pretty sure that's why some people started ignoring you.

[butterchurn]

Agreed, apologies, didn't mean to suggest that I knew what was best for you.

[butterchurn]

VOTE: bnuuy

[butterchurn]

I still think we're letting Nashville Dreams get away for no good reason, but bnuuy is a fine backup option.

[butterchurn]

I don't think that having more difficulty getting into a game that is at 167 pages after a week is necessarily scum-indicative. tictac does have a few bad posts but I think they have a few good ones as well. Why did people move off bnuuy again? Why did people move off Nashville in the first place? Why are we starting new wagons instead of consolidating?

[butterchurn]

I thought following up on catboi not answering a question showed a towny mindset. I'd imagine that scum who is just lurking it out and not solving wouldn't particularly care or remember that they had a thread of investigation that hadn't been resolved.

[butterchurn]

and i never said anything about difficulty getting into the game butter.. odd.

That was in response to this:

there are MORE players this game and their focus is severely more narrow and also more self image focused

Is that an incorrect interpretation?

[butterchurn]

Okay. I'm not sure how else to interpret that. What did you mean by it, then?

[butterchurn]

listen butter

I reread and got context and there is no viability lost there because here is the play there:

catboi is his pet push and he is focused on adding ammo wherever possible to make that push happen.

Yeah, that's the narrative for why they would do that as scum. I agree that's a possible explanation. Doesn't change my read of it, though. I still think it's more likely to come from town.

[butterchurn]

I don't think that having more difficulty getting into a game that is at 167 pages after a week is necessarily scum-indicative. tictac does have a few bad posts but I think they have a few good ones as well. Why did people move off bnuuy again? Why did people move off Nashville in the first place? Why are we starting new wagons instead of consolidating?

Why is it that you've been on every single counter to catboi but for tictac?

~Titus

I'm not sure how accurate that is, but Nashville is my strongest scumread. I don't believe that was a counter to catboi. bnuuy, if anything, was a counter to Nashville, and they're also a scumread of mine. tictac definitely has nothing to do with catboi, because the main wagons were Nashville and bnuuy, so tictac would be a counter to those two. I don't scumread tictac. I do scumread the two previous wagons, whom tictac seems to be a counter to. Although really, a lot of it is the same people voting, I think, so you can hardly call that a counter either.

[butterchurn]

Oddly off point for you actually.

Is it really that odd? I was told earlier that it was a towntell for them.

[butterchurn]

VOTE: Toogeloo

If you want a wagon on a lurker, here's the scummiest one.

[butterchurn]

Your answer is semantic rather useful. Your response to my allegation is to claim 1) my question isn't valid because you scumread me. I think we can all see the problem with that. 2) it nitpicks the substance rather than gets at the substance.

A counterwagon is a wagon that exists at the same time as another.

Catboi and Monkey were counters early. You were on Monkey.
Catboi and I were counters. You were on me.
Arguably you weren't on Wallflower, but you were on Monkey at the time.
Bnuuy started at 3631, while catboi was still there. The wagon on me was dying and you jumped.

Even if you disagree with the semantics of "counterwagon", you still are fine or have been fine with every single major wagon this game but for catboi and tictac.

What gives?

I actually didn't fully absorb who I was replying to, hence the "Nashville" instead of "you". My first sentence was part of the explanation for why I was on that wagon, not why your question was invalid. I already answered the substance of your question. The wagons that I've joined are on people who I scumread. The wagons that I haven't joined are on people who I don't scumread. I haven't particularly followed who is a counter wagon to whom due to the infrequent votecounts. I'm also much less inclined to join a wagon led by someone I scumread. Part of the reason I joined the original bnuuy wagon (if I'm remembering correctly) is that it was led by people I townread. Despite Flavor Leaf's insistence that the whole game has revolved around catboi, I don't think that's terribly accurate.

[butterchurn]

If Save the Dragons is joining the wagon, I'm more interested.

[butterchurn]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=82679&user_select[]=25917

wild. it was pretty similar and he even quit the game.

AND THE QUESTION THING IS ACTUALLY THERE -> IT IS A GIMMICK SCUM TICTAC HAS OMG

it was ANSWERED there but tictac DOES pay attention to questions as scum -> so @butter seeing this tell me what u think

tictac: Were you hinting at something more in 93, or just kidding around?

twas kinda "don't do the annoying thing" post at Aaron.
I guess there's a mild associative there tho, since wake also answered my guestion directed at Aaron.

Yeah, okay, that is pretty similar. Good catch.

VOTE: tictac

[butterchurn]

I think butter's is just town probs defending wagons.

He defended both Catboi and myself too.

I think I've been fairly consistent in being willing to join wagons with my townreads/on people I scumread, and less interested in wagons led by people I scumread/on people I don't scumread. I think Nashville Dreams' analysis of it is in bad faith, and is setting out to prove a narrative that she came up with. Still would love to vote there, but it seems that's not happening toDay anymore.

[butterchurn]

I think butter's is just town probs defending wagons.

He defended both Catboi and myself too.

I think I've been fairly consistent in being willing to join wagons with my townreads/on people I scumread, and less interested in wagons led by people I scumread/on people I don't scumread. I think Nashville Dreams' analysis of it is in bad faith, and is setting out to prove a narrative that she came up with. Still would love to vote there, but it seems that's not happening toDay anymore.

How is their analysis in bad faith?

Frankly, I see the analysis, and understand why it's seen as scummy. I do believe there is high merit in scum reading you, i am more tone/gut objective looking at you, where Titus is specifically coming from an analytical Vote Count Analysis side, something she's been doing for a while.

She has also stated that Catboi suspicion, and it led to tictac, which led to you, so I see that trajectory as incredibly valid and more likely to come from town than scum.

I see it as in bad faith because she's twisting things to apply to the narrative that she came up with. Under no circumstances can the tictac wagon be referred to as a counter to catboi, yet she claimed it was, because that suits what she's trying to prove. It's funny how much you insist that she can't be scum because she hasn't tried to pocket you, when she completely inverted her reads to align with yours and then when called out on it just handwaved it away.

[butterchurn]

I was under the impression she's pushing tictac as a Catboi partner, not a counter wagon.

Why is it that you've been on every single counter to catboi but for tictac?

[butterchurn]

I don't really get why tic tac is scum instead of a mildly useless town.

I think they could easily be either, which is part of why I'm less in favor of a lurker elimination Day 1 -- there's very little to go on so it's hard to be confident in a read. However, the meta that SCP pulled up shows that this game does more closely align to their scum game than to their town game, even though there's similarities.

[butterchurn]

I was under the impression she's pushing tictac as a Catboi partner, not a counter wagon.

Why is it that you've been on every single counter to catboi but for tictac?

I think overanalyzing it. While I wouldn't necessarily call it a direct counterwagon, it is pulling away from Catboi pressure. there's 2 votes on Catboi. This is the smallest it's been.

I think there's 100% merit in believing Tictac is a possible scum partner of Catboi, and she looks to be genuinely investigating you, and I think it's a good push on you, tbh.

I had the exact same suspicions on you earlier but less analytical.

And if you're so against Nashville here, why did you join Tictac?

Okay, fair enough I guess, I disagree, but my interpretation may be colored by my suspicion just like how your interpretation is likely colored by your townread. And as I said earlier, the fact that Nashville wanted tictac was a major part of why I didn't want to join that wagon. SCP changed my mind to lean scum instead of lean town on tictac, though, and with you, Save the Dragons, and Ydrasse on it, all of whom I townread, I felt a bit better about it than I did originally.

[butterchurn]

Toog is absolutely the scummiest lurker. Cat Scratch I don't think qualifies as a lurker but I have suspicion there as well.

[butterchurn]

if SOD is obvtown

He is, check his ISO.

[butterchurn]

wagoning does make sense for tictac to be scum. i really think so. Unless one of my Monkery's are scum, but idk if SCP plays this way as scum.

And STD been really independent, i feel, and i dont get scum vibes from them like i did last time, but i might be putting too much merit into my trust, but i genuinely do understand STD.

Idk. I see a Tictac scum case from reasons completely outside of TicTac.

I feel similarly. I'm still very hesitant on SCP, but I think Save the Dragons is one of the towniest people in the game. I know you're suspicious of Ydrasse, but I've been townreading that slot for a while as well. The only sticking point for me is Nashville.

[butterchurn]

Toog is absolutely the scummiest lurker. Cat Scratch I don't think qualifies as a lurker but I have suspicion there as well.

I have 32 posts in 5 days, which is like... Way above average for me.

And almost none of them say anything about the game. I believe that's referred to as active lurking.

[butterchurn]

tictac is prob the days wagon and at 170 pages this day shouldn't go on much longer but wanted to put my vote on scum for the time being.

VOTE: butterchurn

I wouldn't assume tictac is the day's wagon. Or that this Day won't go on much longer. We probably have a least another 50 pages to go. We've had wagons go up to 9 that should have gone through and didn't, for some reason. What makes you think I'm scum?

[butterchurn]

What makes you think I'm scum?

you were trying to start a lurker wagon after a 160+ d1, that shit was scummy as fuck.

I'm not the one trying to start a lurker wagon. You realize the tictac wagon started just before that, right? It was a vanity vote to express my suspicion, I wasn't ever planning to stay on it.

[butterchurn]

I've been vocally opposed to lurker wagons in general.

[butterchurn]

that REALLY makes it sound like a catboi/ND team

I thought so too for a bit. But Catboi ended up pushing Nashville there without really putting pressure on TicTac.

And Norwegian-Catboi were pushing each other lightly, but then they ended up sheeping each other.


And Ydrasse replaces into this game and throws a town read on Catboi.

Ydrasse-Catboi-Mastina has been on my mind, and maybe it's not TicTac, but I did see some merit it TicTac scum with their jump off of Catboi., but it could just be townie tictac not doing anything.

YD is basically a 3rd party this game. I mean maybe you could make the argument that YD fakeclaimed malefactor as mafia to get out of the days elimination but im going to go with YD was true claiming and that the rest of the mafia is is some combination the ppl outside of me and YD.

If Butterchurn and catboi keep pushing ND as scum it makes it look like a scum trio.

Perhaps you should try to read and understand the context of the game before making statements like this. Ydrasse was never in danger of elimination and was clearly joking.

[butterchurn]

I also really want to force Butterchurn to commit with a Catboi stance and just haven't been able to get pressure going past a stalled 5-6 vote wagon on Catboi all game.

I don't really see why I should be forced to take a stance here (well, I understand why you would want me to, since if I'm scum it makes me take a stance, but I'm not, so I'm not going to make one up). Players like catboi are not people that I expect to be able to have a confident Day 1 read on.

[butterchurn]

I wish it was Catboi/tictac wagons right now.

And I wish it was you/bnuuy wagons right now. We can't all get what we want, and certain people's refusal to accept that is why this Day has taken so long.

[butterchurn]

I also really want to force Butterchurn to commit with a Catboi stance and just haven't been able to get pressure going past a stalled 5-6 vote wagon on Catboi all game.

I don't really see why I should be forced to take a stance here (well, I understand why you would want me to, since if I'm scum it makes me take a stance, but I'm not, so I'm not going to make one up). Players like catboi are not people that I expect to be able to have a confident Day 1 read on.

So you've spent the entire day voting not catboi and catboi is a nullread?

Who do you expect to have a read on?

I have spend a significant amount of time explaining my read on catboi at various points in the game and how it has progressed over time and if you don't care to read my posts on the matter that's frankly not my problem. Not having a strong, confident read is entirely different from not having a read at all. There's nobody who I expect to have zero read on. But some people, such as Sword of Ducks, are obviously town, and thus I am more confident in my read on them. catboi is a strong scum player who is significantly less polarized and therefore is harder to have a confident read on.

[butterchurn]

Ngl, this is a better answer then I was expecting. Especially the bolded. I feel like that could be the missing context to make those series of posts make any kind of sense.

I still don't like that it took so long and so many attempts to get a solid answer down. But... I guess I can't see why the wagon dissipated

I had a similar reaction, for what it's worth. It's an... okay explanation, although I expect they would be perfectly capable of coming up with it as scum after the 3 days or however long it took them to answer. I still think they're scum, but the wagon wasn't going anywhere anymore.

[butterchurn]

VOTE: Nashville Dreams

Not sure what the wagons are at now. I would do bnuuy as well but this is scummier.

[butterchurn]

with your vote I think ND is now at E-10

That's pretty close, we can do it.

[butterchurn]

why is it impossible to keep a bnuuy wagon at any meaningful level of votes

All of these wagons have failed and therefore they must all be on scum or else scum would allow them to go through. Great job everyone, we've solved the game on Day 1.

[butterchurn]

VOTE: Toogeloo

[butterchurn]

I need to see what happened last night but I am not a fan of the Toog wagon.

Let me guess, it's a counterwagon to catboi.

[butterchurn]

Scum winrate 20%? Wow, this site has good town.

[butterchurn]

I think Titus has an agenda of voting out only catboi this dayphase and its starting to show pretty blatantly - Could be tunneled town could be scum - but regardless of the case I don't think Titus can be trusted on catboi until they show some charitably and actually display cognition of context behind his wagons rather than trying to push that failed wagon=scum repeatedly. If Titus finds something in the context of the wagons that actually shows her theory is correct I'm all ears - I don't have catboi as solidly town, I was just working with him on the basis he is a good scumhunter.

This all being said - this does not mean I think catboi / Titus has to be S/T or what have you. It could very well be T/T or S/S, this is just how I feel about how they are coming off with their tunnel.

The especially strange thing about it is that Titus for a while early on was townreading catboi. She initially was acting in a similar pattern, but around MonkeyMan, saying that any wagon that came up was a counter to him, and wanting to eliminate there. I think she may have been sheeping people like myself who were somewhat tunneled on MonkeyMan early. Seeing her poor reasoning for suspicion actually helped get me out of the tunnel. However, her trajectory flipped very suddenly and without reason, and now the pattern is the same but the focus is around catboi. That was the main reason for the initial suspicion around her; she's since explained it and the explanation is somewhat believable but I still think the progression looks very off. My belief is that she was realigning her reads and direction in response to Flavor Leaf being tunneled on catboi.

[butterchurn]

did you knowingly run up a claimed mason?

tictac? What? I don't think they had claimed earlier. I didn't see it, at least, and I don't see it now on looking at ISO.

[butterchurn]

i think u are having trouble getting into this game in a scum indicative and u were under null but recent postings have alleviated that, mainly why i want town cop to check u so you can be cleared.

I don't think this is accurate, although I can see how you may think that due to the timing of when you joined. I expect a lot of people are having fatigue due to how long the Day has gone on. At the start of the game, Save the Dragons seemed to have no trouble at all getting into the game and in my opinion was very towny.

[butterchurn]

I've just been ignoring any Flavor Leaf claims unless they are confirmed by others, because he's already taken back several.

[butterchurn]

toog/nero/mega/mena/klick <- top tier of scumreads

catboi/nashville/tictac/csf <- lower tier of scumreads

lower tier is in order of strongest to weakest

What happened to your read on me? Also curious why bnuuy isn't on here. I know you changed your mind there in 4083, but I would like to know what specifically changed it.

[butterchurn]

maybe i have retrospect of like knowing toog was town there and here i can’t know so i’m >:( but i feel the effort in that game was really like... apparent after a certain point. the care. the “i’m town” energy

it’s a nebulous reason to explain but it’s there

I feel this. There's really nothing towny about anything that he's posted. A lot of his earlier discussion was also about not really game-related things. The biggest stance he's taken so far is calling mastina scum, which of all possible stances is probably the stance that is the least likely to produce anything since she's unlikely to be eliminated or strongly wagoned anytime soon.

[butterchurn]

toog/nero/mega/mena/klick <- top tier of scumreads

catboi/nashville/tictac/csf <- lower tier of scumreads

lower tier is in order of strongest to weakest

also mastina is my solve for malefactor at this point for partially mechanical reasons and how theyve played the day so far. town vig should always shoot there n1 regardless because of the risk of a malefactor BP.

if this is your POE I'm very lukewarm (not the player) on a lot of these reads


also what happened to your butterchurn read?

i listed like 10 players I do need specifics lol

butterchurn I changed my mind on rereading their posts but theyre still middle of the road in terms of reads

I'd still like to hear about your reasons for the bnuuy read change.

[butterchurn]

i reread their iso and concluded my initial reasons were bad
not interested in going in depth atm bc it would derail the convo ty

Fair. I'll check back in about it next time there's a wagon on them or something.

[butterchurn]

Catboi is the Donald Trump of mafia scum where he digs his grave by opening his mouth.

Was this really necessary

[butterchurn]

I'm a Self Targeting Innocent Child.

Is this a serious claim and if so what does it mean

Enchant and Keeper jokeclaimed it earlier, so I assume it is continuing the joke, and seems to me like it could just be scum surrendering.

[butterchurn]

butter was being a little white knighty towards me before in a way i was surprised by and i guess i only noticed bc it was my slot

And I will continue to be. I had a pretty strong townread on norwegian, and I think he was part of what was starting to feel like a pretty decent townbloc a while ago and the game felt like it was going in a good direction at that point. That, unfortunately, got mostly drowned out.

[butterchurn]

reading some posts does not mean they have been reading most posts.

But reading some posts should be enough to have some opinions.

[butterchurn]

reading some posts does not mean they have been reading most posts.

But reading some posts should be enough to have some opinions.

You know how easy that is for scum too? People are acting like scum can't do this.

It's easier to make cases and reads as scum than it is town, especially Day 1.

They could do it if they thought they had a chance to survive. They know they're not going to, so there's no point in giving out any associations.