Gnosia Game over!

[MathBlade]

Officially that’s the only confirm.

not known 15 has a green check on enchant

so if not known 15 confirmed so is enchant

enchant could still be the traitor but eh

irrelevant mostly - doesn’t count towards win condition et cetera

so all traitor!enchant could really do is mislead us and it’s not like we aren’t going to weigh what enchant is saying anyway

and the traitor thing doesn’t seem super likely regardless

I thought NK15 acted at night? Where is this green check so I can fix my notes?

I am roleblocked for tomorrow.... and Enchant is town.

Thanks!

I think that was a waste of a check but okay

[MathBlade]

So facts are
NK15 is cop
Herta is coroner. Jessica was scum.
Enchant is not gnosia (can be traitor)

Mechanically there’s a strong argument for Enchant traitor Shiki scum but I don’t believe that so I am not sharing it. If I do believe it or am asked, I will share it.

[MathBlade]

I hate hoods

i generally do not know how to effectively use them

Same. I kinda hoped we could wait to explain what happened though.

It also confirms Roden is not GA.

It's actually simple logic, GA would target NK15 instead and FATLY tell how he is not Guardian Angel.

Not claiming or denying GA here, but Gnosia would likely have the same idea if I'd done so. A townie who Neighborizes a Cop protected by a Doc is a pretty a clear threat.

Can I interest you in a spicy Jada wagon?

[MathBlade]

There's no wagons anymore.

Now it's trashtalk phase. After this ends, we have 2 days to vote. Privately.


So yeah.

Mechanically yes, but unless we collaborate scum can vote dump someone.

So we need to use these days to create wagons and talk

[MathBlade]

Cool.

Can we wagon Narrow Parking

Make a case, I think Jada is better.

If narrow is better we can go there

[MathBlade]

Cool.

Can we wagon Narrow Parking

Make a case, I think Jada is better.

If narrow is better we can go there

he evil


done

You’re kinda making me think you traitor isn’t as bad.

I gotta go but this is :/

[MathBlade]

I actually think MathBlade could be Gnosia who knew too much. No one gave a reason for Jessica being scum and his attitude was downright toxic. He opens today voting someone who called him out for his shit.

If Math was town, he'd compare the Elmo wagons and draw conclusions from that.

I expected to be copped but it is what it is.

Based on my look, narrow parking should be scum. We're looking for largely ineffective people, whether it be through demoralization, lurking or some combination.

Jada is pretty scumlocked for me.

Her arguing that I am gnosia for that is a scum claim. I sussed her super early and she’s never really gave any pushback until here. She’s making a desperate effort not to spew.

[MathBlade]

I don't think Math makes up a trigger like that. His role is likely true.

Jada has zero consistency. She just wants me dead. She knows I am guiding town true here.

[MathBlade]

VC 1.7

Jessica Rabbit (6): Not Known 15, FakeGod, Herta, MathBlade, Enchant, shiki
Elmo TeH AzN (5): Jada, Ranger, ProfessorDrapion, Jessica Rabbit, Roden
Enchant (1): narrow parking
Not Known 15 (1): beeboy

Not voting (2): Elmo TeH AzN, Freedom

Deadline is in (expired on 2022-12-18 23:03:13)

With 15 players alive, it takes 8 to fade away

Can we all agree Elmo replacement town?

[MathBlade]

Mainly it’s more about giving scum no where to vote.

Based on where votes fall then either they bus Jada (which gives no info but likely eliminates the second scum), Jada starts doing analysis given Jessica scum like I asked for (which they never did), or they think they have influence.

If Jada is town she really needs to show some desire towards solving.

[MathBlade]

The biggest question right now should not be: Who's Gnosia?
but rather:Who's the Bug?

Agree to disagree.

I think after one more likely Gnosia elim we can bug hunt. I don’t want to bug hunt wrong today hit town then end up in dire straights. It’s possible we hit bug today but then get in a vice because of too many gnosia.

I think it’s also antitown to fight with you on it. I think we take obvious Jada scum then bug hunt tomorrow.

[MathBlade]

Reminder:

1. The Guardian Angel is not allowed to claim.
   Only the people on Guard Duty can claim Guard Duty.
   The Bug cannot be killed by Gnosia, however they will die if investigated by the Engineer.
   Gnosia do not have day talk.
   All character abilities are one-shot unless stated otherwise.

All Role PMs are out! Waiting for 14/15 to confirm.

(13/15)

Oh wait.
The Doctor can’t claim

Holy Shit, what if Jessica is Doctor.

I suppose that could explain their over reaction.

I remembrred this but I don't think scum does this.

I am torn on whether Drapion does that. But I think they’re probably town for other reasons. Definitely not anywhere near secret elim material.

Where’s the VCA?

I feel you’re picking me because you’re threatened by me versus an actual scumread.

[MathBlade]

Literally my alt slips. Where is yours? Project much?

Honey I knew you were Titus before that point I just didn’t say.

And lol your votes screamed scum and still do.

One at a time.

[MathBlade]

Yet you vote Jada, not Rabbit who was voted by conftown.

I FoSed Math. Dude's a scripted robot.

Robot. This word is a major tell.

Almost no one uses it but we use it with each other.

[MathBlade]

Like it’s the same argument with Jessica.

Now that I know who you are I expect you to reevaluate where you went wrong. You’re just not which reeks of desperate scum.

[MathBlade]

beeboy has done nothing since replacing in. That in of itself is suspect.

By play, I believe Jessica town;
By play, I feel all of {beeboy, FakeGod, Elmo, narrow parking} are suspect.

Basically, Jessica has given reads under pressure, while being incredibly emotionally compromised. The "AtE" is nai by itself given the reason to be upset exists regardless of alignment, but her expressal of it looks town.

I've come to the conclusion Jessica Rabbit is likely town. Not not-Gnosia; likely town.

I don’t think Jessica is Gnosia.

I would prefer not to lim Jessica today.

VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN
I'd prefer this.

Ranger's hard defense of Jessica yesterday looks really bad.

It looks so bad that I question whether a scum would defend her buddy like this.

It’s possible. With this being flipless and very few people having experience with flipless they might lean more.

What’s really shocking is Jessica outing as scum without checking if she was hammered.

[MathBlade]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Jessica

Hammer post.

[MathBlade]

Not interested in MathBlade picking a fight with conftown.

VOTE: MathBlade

eh i don’t really think most of the mech stuff mathblade proposed actually makes sense

and like yeah can definitely see a potential angle to it

but also don’t really want to move wagon to a non-marashu player without marashu returning

Mech stuff that doesn't make sense is very SI for math.

Block argument

1474 looks to be after hammer.

Considering Jessica outed and NK wasn’t blocked Roden should be lock town.

Jada’s biggest concern is if Jessica is hammered likely to see if she can block.

[MathBlade]

So you voted me calling out your scripted behavior over confscum pushed by conftown and went to Jessica based on what? Oh right that I objected... You get into this pissing match. I said you were fragile and transparent, I meant it. I will not be convincing you I am town. I won't play to do such. I'll discuss reads with you.

Thoughts on Ranger and Freedom?

You asked how I knew it was you. Not sure how you got the above paragraph. I voted you because you were being scummy. My thoughts are elimming obvious scum you. There’s other possibilities but can evaluate based on their play.

We all have to agree on a scum here. If someone makes a case that’s convincing to everyone I will move there to avoid a scum controlled secret elim.

[MathBlade]

The big problem is how Jessica never attacked Jada only me when Jada was much worse about using (redacted) than me.

I think 50/50 odds I back off if Jessica attacked Jada too. But Jessica didn’t.

[MathBlade]

We still don't know what ability Jessica tried to use EOD.

Yeah and for some reason the host didn’t give me their ability like I’m suppose to have.

I thought that you claimed Universal Backup of abilities.
Are you sure that you don't inherit Town abilities as Jessica was Gnosia?

Could be that scum stopped it somehow?

We don’t know what scum can do.

We do know that Jessica either was a blocker or faked it. Other than that we don’t know.

[MathBlade]

We still don't know what ability Jessica tried to use EOD.

Yeah and for some reason the host didn’t give me their ability like I’m suppose to have.

I thought that you claimed Universal Backup of abilities.
Are you sure that you don't inherit Town abilities as Jessica was Gnosia?

Could be that scum stopped it somehow?

We don’t know what scum can do.

We do know that Jessica either was a blocker or faked it. Other than that we don’t know.

I see.
Though, I thought that Universal Backup, by default, only inherits from allies and if that is how Drap's ability works, Jessica is 200% confscum as it means that 2 players can confirm that to be true.

Yep. Agreed

I am on phone and it’s hard to look back.

Assuming that’s what is claimed yeah Jessica was scum.

That would also explain the block explanation after hammer. If Prof Drapion is town that’d be revealed.

[MathBlade]

That's a regrettable alt-slip from what I can only assume is Jada.

Unfortunately, I feel that does spew Jada as Gnosia.

VOTE: Jada

also agree !

VOTE: jada

will mod count votes in discussion phase?

Based on how I read the rules I don’t think so but it helps to demonstrate where votes are at.

[MathBlade]

I actually think MathBlade could be Gnosia who knew too much. No one gave a reason for Jessica being scum and his attitude was downright toxic. He opens today voting someone who called him out for his shit.

If Math was town, he'd compare the Elmo wagons and draw conclusions from that.

I expected to be copped but it is what it is.

who did u replace i swear u came from no where

Jada = Titus

[MathBlade]

Just an alt slip

[MathBlade]

That's a regrettable alt-slip from what I can only assume is Jada.

Unfortunately, I feel that does spew Jada as Gnosia.

VOTE: Jada

also agree !

VOTE: jada

will mod count votes in discussion phase?

This reads either faking reading or townslip.

Narrow quotes the alt slip then asks who Titus is.

Is that faking something or town slip?

Thoughts?

[MathBlade]

Can we all agree Elmo replacement town?

No, not necessarily, not yet at least. Being a counterwagon to flipped scum doesn't

automatically

make a slot town.

I'll let you know

after

I review the way events unfolded. Only after I rule out SvS will the Elmo slot be cleared of being Gnosia.

(For clarity, I'm not arguing we

had

SvS, I'm simply not blindly ruling it out. I'll review shortly to see.)

It’s not just being a counterwagon, Jada who imho is outed scum was on Elmo. Like there’s no hunt from her. She’s outed.

[MathBlade]

I like you

[MathBlade]

@Math
Is what Jada did D1, normal for her as scum?

That’s a super broad question.

If you mean hard defending a buddy, oh yeah.
So is hard pushing a buddy. (See game where she and I were scum together)

It’s more about getting to know why she does what she does.

Jada likely wanted to save Jessica for a future night. When that wasn’t going to happen threw up a desperate block but Roden hammered before she could.

[MathBlade]

Also, I don't need help lol

its so hard to town read you but i think im gonna do it anyway

what are u on about

don't u have stardew gameplay to watch?

come back when u have reads

Why are you so rude?

Some people get reads through interactions.

[MathBlade]

Enchant was claiming their character.
We are all randomly given one in our Role PM, irrespective of alignment and role.
A list of them (excluding the Protag) are listed below.

But there is no role which RB's people after they target them in the other post I quoted

TBH, Ripple is just a bad host and explained nothing and I see nothing in the OP

So I guess I do need help, because I don't understand the setup at all atm

Me stepping you through your role PM if you are a VT would probably be too close to mod confirmable.

I am not sure if you’re familiar with MS but if you click on the spoiler buttons that may help.

[MathBlade]

half this fkn game is mech spam anyway

Why do you think this?
Calling it spam, makes me think that you'd prefer we avoid mech discussion.

Considering the mod gave town 10 character roles, and then let 5 of us double up with town power roles, I'm sure scum are afraid that we can mech solve this game. Jessica's Block Argument not activating probably stings even more, since they seem to have so little counter play as it is.

Why do you say we double up?

[MathBlade]

half this fkn game is mech spam anyway

Why do you think this?
Calling it spam, makes me think that you'd prefer we avoid mech discussion.

Considering the mod gave town 10 character roles, and then let 5 of us double up with town power roles, I'm sure scum are afraid that we can mech solve this game. Jessica's Block Argument not activating probably stings even more, since they seem to have so little counter play as it is.

Why do you say we double up?

Engineer, Doctor, GA, and both Guard Duty slots also have character skills. In addition to the five VTs with character skills, that means there are 15 town abilities in play.

Why do you say only 5?

[MathBlade]

Narrow and beeboy are good votes.

This gives me some pause to Jessica Rabbit + Jada + {narrow parking, beeboy} as the team of 3.

Open question (I assure you, not rhetorical; am serious): do you think Jada tries to divert attention away from Jessica Rabbit onto the third scumbuddy, by including a town player in it?
...As I was typing that out in the process of typing it out I realized what I was saying though so: yes, I do.

Obviously, still reading, but I would bet Jada as scum with Jessica, with the third as one of narrow parking/beeboy and the other as not-Gnosia thrown in for Jada to attempt to make the elimination.

I am not sure

There’s too much I don’t know to answer it.

I do know from Jada not theorizing or moonlogicking or throwing anything at the wall she’s more likely scum.

I am legit still sad we haven’t mass claimed. We really should in flipless.

[MathBlade]

TBH, should we actually massclaim abilities?

Yes. I think we should.

However I know it’s a difficult ask so I haven’t pushed it as much as I have on sites with flipless experience.

The abilities are less useful than the accountability.

If the group decides not then we don’t. I think it will be a learning experience if this gets reran.

[MathBlade]

TBH, should we actually massclaim abilities?

Yes. I think we should.

However I know it’s a difficult ask so I haven’t pushed it as much as I have on sites with flipless experience.

The abilities are less useful than the accountability.

If the group decides not then we don’t. I think it will be a learning experience if this gets reran.

[MathBlade]

We should mass claim but not yet. Shiki has a plan.

I wouldn’t wait too long because then scum can be reactive versus having to guess.

[MathBlade]

it’s not a super solid plan we’re just one off from it being a hard solve of the gnosia i think because of the roleblock but from my perspective it works

but the order of eliminations super important because we need to hit bug before third mafia

If it helps you I think the roleblock request was submitted after Roden’s hammer so it might not work.

[MathBlade]

We do, but again, investigations and abilities are not the center. Relationships are.

Think of invests like candy. Most flipless are vanilla. Again look at the linked game.

To bastardize a great movie quote “Investigations are just a red herring.”

Don’t focus on the what, focus on the why.

[MathBlade]

I’ve been reading up now and I don’t know what to make of either engineer claim but I think Enchant’s reaction sounds slightly more believable. I also don’t understand NK15 asking everyone to explicitly state they’re human instead of just town?

Am I misunderstanding someone? Is there something significant with regards to the specific wording? Like Enchant, I will state I’m town, in case something bad happens to anyone who claims human over town.

If we can get Enchant and NK15 to agree to investigate the same person, we might be able to start clearing. If they disagree, that could be telling, too (especially as the night kills add up). At the very least, N1 the GA will know who that is, so it's also risky for maf to NK the invest target.

This person gets it...

I do like this post however.

if i were engineer i wouldn't claim here. i doubt we'll reach end of phase without one of them walking back their claim. if one of them dies during the night w/o that happening we know they're both town cuz scum doesn't want to get rid of that kind of wifom.

Enchant could be a bug or an AC Follower; though. The AC Follower is a Lone Wolf and the bug doesn't want to be investigated by an Engineer.

Why do you exclude Gnosia from this list? And that of course could also apply to you as well no, including Gnosia, because if both you and Enchant hypothetically “investigate” the same person and one or both of you isn’t town, yoiu could then hypothetically disagree on the invest target and make sure Gnosia isn’t investigated and as Enchant points out, protective can’t be on the mutual invest target and either of you.

I don’t know what to make of any of this tbh. NK15 sounds good tone wise but Enchant’s reaction looked more townie.

Notice how Jessica opens here. It’s all about focusing on mech and clearing. The cop who gets false inno of the traitor I believe and nothing on bug is nowhere near as important as coroner who from what I see doesn’t have those limitations. The receive alignment on death the one that lets us know if we are off or on track. Sure a cop lets us know if someone is town but town is VTs at this point. A VT absolutely should be willing to die for their team. The only one not claimed is Doctor but you shouldn’t be pushing doc suspects until the end of the game or no other options.

People value cops because they’re used to it in flipless. Instead it’s all about who says what and why. Yes I’d love a hundred treats and candy but the death flip revealer is the meat and the potatoes that makes a game healthy. It is doable without it, again look at flipless, but alignment revealer > cop because you don’t have to do that shit in your head.

[MathBlade]

That said, Doctor (not Guardian Angel) should claim as well

I disagree.

GA can't protect both me and Doctor.

This seems to indicate a townie thought process, since I think it’s in scum’s interest to have prs outed. Am I misunderstanding something here Roden?

Again, we know Jessica is scum. Why didn’t she tunnel me hard for advocating for mass claim? This is a huge turning point to where my read soured. The nail was really treating Jada different than me but really she wasn’t consistent here.

[MathBlade]

Roden
Shiki
Ranger
Math

I think seem townie.

Uuuuuuh... If we have follow the cop...
Why we don't just.

No Lim everyone, but guilty check.

Enchant is probably town for this because he understands that no elim is protown in a flipless game.

This is absolutely not true.

You don’t learn anything in a flipless game doing this.

[MathBlade]

The only places Jessica pushed are Fake God and Elmo for the most part.

Pretty sure my Fake God read was wrong before given this and FG can go in the 85% pool since he didn’t try to die while Jessica is getting ran up.

Overall we want to narrow the pool of players scum can push then force those in that possible scum pool to be the vocal ones.

Then based on “flips” push forward and analyze

[MathBlade]

I GOT IT!

The ability is you put “block argument like they did”, the requirement is the post must be about defending or pushing a player and they are forced to vote for that player in freeze phase.

Darn. I was hoping it was alignment confirming.

@Roden - I am considering Shiki a deep wolf. I am not asking their reason for stalling, but did their reason sound sound?

[MathBlade]

Like force player 1 to vote player 2 in freeze phase.

It’s probably the counter to my sus ability for scum. Then if Jessica had lived they could have hard come at me as a team then forced someone from D1’s sus to vote me.

You understand that has to get burnt right? While we all vote dump Jada?

[MathBlade]

Not interested in MathBlade picking a fight with conftown.

VOTE: MathBlade

eh i don’t really think most of the mech stuff mathblade proposed actually makes sense

and like yeah can definitely see a potential angle to it

but also don’t really want to move wagon to a non-marashu player without marashu returning

Mech stuff that doesn't make sense is very SI for math.

So Jessica picked that post. If Jessica’s ability worked, we need to counter Jada’s just in case.

[MathBlade]

Why are you confirmed?
So the strategy is follow the cop but for corpses?

@Jada - Like regular mafia LMAO. Coroner just makes dayflips flipful

[MathBlade]

I think that Ranger, Freedom, Roden and Enchant are town. FakeGod too. Narrow is lean town.

Math's probably scum with Marashu.

We could point her at Drapion?

@Everyone thoughts?

[MathBlade]

yeah i think professordrapion not gnosia because wanted to take credit for jessica rabbit elimination in like,

like a see i was useful even though i wasn’t on the wagon look that was me i did that sort of way

which would be, uh, uncommon for a partner i think

That's actually scummy to be off wagon, push for the other, then take credit

@Jada looks like you still scumread Drapion any objections?

[MathBlade]

I have a work fire. Maybe VLA for the rest of the day.

[MathBlade]

It’s a rare tipsy math! Maybe this will encourage people to post!

[MathBlade]

Nope. I think we should mass claim. I don't like how quiet the game is. I'm also awaiting an answer from Roden to my question. There's lots of hunting that can be going on.

It's way too quiet and I don't like that.

[MathBlade]

?? Forcing NK15 to vote me is something a wolf would do? I think it’s the angry orchard but I don’t follow the grammar?

[MathBlade]

Oh you mean wolf on wolf crime so I am not a wolf…

I mean well I think that’s painfully clear.

[MathBlade]

yeah i think professordrapion not gnosia because wanted to take credit for jessica rabbit elimination in like,

like a see i was useful even though i wasn’t on the wagon look that was me i did that sort of way

which would be, uh, uncommon for a partner i think

That's actually scummy to be off wagon, push for the other, then take credit

@Jada looks like you still scumread Drapion any objections?

Honestly that post by Jada just confirms them as a wolf in my eyes tbh.

They were there when I first hard pushed Jessica (so was Shiki) and knows how confident I was on that and even tried shielding the slot.

That post from Jada is not scummy,

She’s scum for a lot of better reasons

But that one not so. It’s a generic bland statement.

What are some of your reads?

[MathBlade]

You’re down to force Jada’s vote to move yeah?

Then votes on me or you are scum claims? (The exception I would note would be if that force is stronger than implied) but in no way should me or you be hammered.

With all these people being quiet I don’t like it.

[MathBlade]

Dude I am tipsy no need for the yelling lol.

Like what’s your reads and PoE now.

[MathBlade]

You’re down to force Jada’s vote to move yeah?

Then votes on me or you are scum claims? (The exception I would note would be if that force is stronger than implied) but in no way should me or you be hammered.

With all these people being quiet I don’t like it.

Why would we die?
Other then the PR’s IMO we are the most spewed town.

If we don’t all consolidate and scum do or tons of tiny wagons is my concern.

[MathBlade]

I would add FakeGod as a tentative conf

I checked FG’s ability and it’s true. Granted not a lock but close enough for now.

If I wasn’t lazy and tipsy I would build my own PoE.

[MathBlade]

1) They post state your role in thread. Certain people can lie but town has to tell the truth. It’s in the thread. It’s used.
2) and okay? I checked him before the Jessica brujahjah

[MathBlade]

When you’re ready please redirect Jada’s vote I see no reason to delay.

[MathBlade]

You’re reading backwards I think.

It’s forcing NK15 to vote for me.

That’s how I understood the explanation.

I will never vote NK15. If it ever seems that way hijinks have occurred

[MathBlade]

@LLD Tldr

Drapion wagon D1. Claimed universal backup. At first said he didn’t get an ability. Then he said he got Jessica’s ability later today. Waiting for him to use it on Jada to move her vote. The longer he waits the more sus he becomes of bug/traitor. Unlikely groupscum.

Jessica was elimmed D1. Right after her hammer she posted some kind of block argument post. She’s confirmed Gnosia by play and by coroner even though it is not flipless. Jada was her biggest defender. We asked Jada about her new reads or why she should be townread and she’s quieter than a log. Given who Jada alt slipped as (it will be obvious) shutting up is tantamount to a scum claim.

We are in the discussion phase. It lasts as long as we want up to like 8 days.

I am very much pro mass claim but understand it is a big pill to swallow as most don’t want to in flipful games. Most of our open PRs have claimed (or pretty much won’t or have decided to troll) so any town left should be VT (or just claim it). You might be a “VT” with a special ability depending on character. Traitor or Bug won’t obviously claim that. There are still the masons unclaimed but I think they just disagree with the mass claim idea.

On D1, Fake God and I both used abilities. Fake God was looking sketchy to me so I checked his ability after a weird intro (by design you’ll see why). If what Roden says is true that only 5 VTs have special abilities (I couldn’t find it in the setup so grain of salt maybe I missed it) then mass claim should be relatively straightforward.

[MathBlade]

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=90105

This is the setup here.

The dilemma is while the game is flipless we have to make sure we kill Bug before all group scum or we lose.

So after we flip Jada we will have one more group scum one traitor and one bug evil.

Scum no killed after a shitty D1 so either a doc save or scum know who the bug is.

[MathBlade]

Good morning

I'd like everyone to check beeboy's "contributions" this game and see what they think.

On page 45, MathBlade's interactions also feel possible Traitor/Bug, but not Gnosia. This is fueled further here:

Explain why the quoted isn't gnosia?
If I need to read the page for context, I haven't, but that doesn't read unpartnered to me

It does require reading, yes.
MathBlade went from not pushing Jessica at all, to hard-pushing Jessica, once the info about Jessica was revealed. The toxicity from him not using Jessica's preferred name absolutely doesn't come from scumbuddies.

However, MathBlade's posts still fit as Traitor/Bug, and he's a top candidate for Bug imo. The most likely Gnosia kills last night were {MathBlade, ProfessorDrapion, FakeGod}; the Bug is certainly among them. Since we're still hunting Gnosia today, he's effectively town regardless.

Again I did use Jessica’s preferred name. Ffs.

No, too kills were (redacted) if scum were paying attention, no I won’t help scum by saying what. I suspect scum shot X and if doc was smart protected X because doc on cop is common. I welcome an engineer check if that’s what is wanted. And yes I did change my read Omg it happens math did a good thing he’s scum, it pisses me off.

[MathBlade]

This game is over. I can't claim. Don't care to. Don't want to force anyone to play follow the cop. I'm town btw.

Drapion's town.

Then town controlling your vote should be no problem as you’re the elim right?

We just have to make sure Drapion puts that down before end of day.

[MathBlade]

Good morning

I'd like everyone to check beeboy's "contributions" this game and see what they think.

On page 45, MathBlade's interactions also feel possible Traitor/Bug, but not Gnosia. This is fueled further here:

Explain why the quoted isn't gnosia?
If I need to read the page for context, I haven't, but that doesn't read unpartnered to me

It does require reading, yes.
MathBlade went from not pushing Jessica at all, to hard-pushing Jessica, once the info about Jessica was revealed. The toxicity from him not using Jessica's preferred name absolutely doesn't come from scumbuddies.

However, MathBlade's posts still fit as Traitor/Bug, and he's a top candidate for Bug imo. The most likely Gnosia kills last night were {MathBlade, ProfessorDrapion, FakeGod}; the Bug is certainly among them. Since we're still hunting Gnosia today, he's effectively town regardless.

Also regarding beeboy those posts are pretty pathetic. I’d rather get outed scum.

[MathBlade]

The least you can do if you’re town is point us where you think scum is.

[MathBlade]

Titus actually dislike Follow the Cop. House of Dragons is evidence.

It’s actually not follow the cop (unlike House of Dragons). Follow the cop in this game = likely loss.

[MathBlade]

Also regarding beeboy those posts are pretty pathetic. I’d rather get outed scum.

Yes. Today we always lim Jada.

Then, we need to bug hunt.

I believe beeboy isn't town, but beeboy's not my top choice for bug.

i think mass claim will make bug hunting way easier

Agreed.

Mainly just waiting on Drapion I think. When they make that post I am okay going into voting phase?

Although should we let discussion phase sit over Christmas?

[MathBlade]

But only roles unclaimed are Guard Duty and Guardian Angel. Both have no reason to claim.

Why you want to out GD if they can claim when they are in danger?

There is no good reason for today.
Tomorrow is of course another matter.

Agree to disagree. But again no point in pushing it further.

[MathBlade]

Yeah no reason not to let discussion hang over Christmas and get LLD caught up.

I wish NK15 would permit mass claim as I think if we do it now it gives less room for mass claim shenanigans.

[MathBlade]

Yeah no reason not to let discussion hang over Christmas and get LLD caught up.

I wish NK15 would permit mass claim as I think if we do it now it gives less room for mass claim shenanigans.

Permitted, except for GA and Masons.
GA cannot claim, and masons can claim tomorrow - no need today.

My concern is if scum shoot a mason. Then we would lose two conf towns and it turn into a 1v1. Masons value is more conf town and narrow PoE.

[MathBlade]

I have to wait for Jada to cast sus or defend a player to do it.

She did on you.

[MathBlade]

yeah i think professordrapion not gnosia because wanted to take credit for jessica rabbit elimination in like,

like a see i was useful even though i wasn’t on the wagon look that was me i did that sort of way

which would be, uh, uncommon for a partner i think

That's actually scummy to be off wagon, push for the other, then take credit

Here you go.

She changed her mind later but there’s the sus.

[MathBlade]

Happy Holidays! Waiting on Drapion to prove himself. Hopefully we add another to the proven block!

[MathBlade]

Find it funny math telling me to prove myself expecting Jada to cooperate under the assumption of Jada being wolf.

I don’t expect Jada to cooperate.

We have one of two worlds:

1) You block Jada using that post, which is viable sus because it was a suspicion at that time, you get to be tangentially confirmed ability along with fake god and a tangential me. (You’re tangential as Jada could change her vote to look like it)

2) You don’t use that post or any prior sus she had (other than me to show that the vote changed) This would mean that it’s quite possible your first post that you didn’t inherit anything is true and you’re scum.

Jada has expressed sus on several slots.

This game is about resolving wagons and people.

I want to remove as many avenues for scum as possible.

[MathBlade]

1) You block Jada using that post, which is viable sus because it was a suspicion at that time, you get to be tangentially confirmed ability along with fake god and a tangential me. (You’re tangential as Jada could change her vote to look like it)

if they were scum buddies, wouldn't this have happened immediately? Prof "uses" the ability on whatever post he likes and Jada knows to switch the vote to confirm him?

Also are the votes made public when they happen in freeze phase? idk if this has been asked before.

1) It won’t hard confirm him but is the only way he wouldn’t be outed. It’s a likely / possible.
2) We don’t want that redirect coming into play as a snipe so it needs to happen today when we know all town will be on Jada.

If anyone wants Drapion to do it on someone else I don’t mind but Jada is the safest play

[MathBlade]

yeah i think professordrapion not gnosia because wanted to take credit for jessica rabbit elimination in like,

like a see i was useful even though i wasn’t on the wagon look that was me i did that sort of way

which would be, uh, uncommon for a partner i think

That's actually scummy to be off wagon, push for the other, then take credit

/Block Argument

@Maria

I know I am being super nit picky but can you please format it like Jessica’s too?

So this serves to either confirm your power or redirect scum to an impossible elim.

Thanks!

[MathBlade]

1) You block Jada using that post, which is viable sus because it was a suspicion at that time, you get to be tangentially confirmed ability along with fake god and a tangential me. (You’re tangential as Jada could change her vote to look like it)

if they were scum buddies, wouldn't this have happened immediately? Prof "uses" the ability on whatever post he likes and Jada knows to switch the vote to confirm him?

Also are the votes made public when they happen in freeze phase? idk if this has been asked before.

I asked the mod privately this question.

It helped formulate my plan. I think only scum care. I don’t give a f if my votes are made public

[MathBlade]

Please and thanks I get nervous with some of these things.

A / is an ignore in some coding languages.

[MathBlade]

Is Mathblade confirmed good in any capacity?

Technically no, but I was partially responsible for Jessica elim. Jessica (confirmed scum) and Jada (almost certainly scum) were shading me repeatedly.

I also used my ability to confirm Fake God’s as legit.

You’re welcome to push me to sort me but I mean it’s kinda silly imho.

[MathBlade]

Jada

[MathBlade]

Enchant, Herta and myself are confirmed crew, and the limmed Jessica Rabbit is confirmed Gnosia.

Is there anything preventing Jessica from being Doctor and Herta from being Gnosia who took a risk and/or has a power to check dead player roles? I suppose Jessica would have claimed before she died, did she?

Yes. Someone would have CC’d Herta.

Also no death in the night heavily implies Doctor save or scum know who bug is.

[MathBlade]

why is fakegod a potential night kill?

FakeGod's character power is an investigative + FG's actively involved with mechtalk + FakeGod was an active player at end of D1 who was cleared of being Gnosia by Jessica Rabbit. In spite of this, he doesn't look town.

The only other players qualifying are {ProfessorDrapion, MathBlade}. Drapion for the universal backup, MathBlade for

his

investigative.

Unlikely as I was one shot. It’d be the same as killing without an ability.

[MathBlade]

It’s very unlikely I would be legitimately sussed for it to pop again.

[MathBlade]

Maybe NK15 could check Math?

Already offered to be checked

[MathBlade]

The abilities are named confusingly.

The thread has mostly gone to calling things traditional names
Cop = NK15 gets most alignments correctly
Doctor = GA = unclaimable
Coroner = Herta = alignment receiver

If you want Jessica to be the GA then Herta has to be scum and the Coroner never CC’d to correct bad assumptions which is problematic.

[MathBlade]

Math feels scum to me, is my issue

I would expect this. I play flipless different than flipped and you’re not used to me being in my wheelhouse. Flipless is very much my schtick and what I played before MS. (See linked game where I hit 2/3rds of scum on replace in)

[MathBlade]

Anyone wanna double check my Shiki deep wolf theory?

LLD is pushing the same points as outed scum and it has me worried.

I know Jada is the elim today but LLD seems weird. I can’t put my finger on it.

Can be on later days if anyone wants to cop me but she pushing the arguments of conf scum doesn’t feel right.

[MathBlade]

I actually think MathBlade could be Gnosia who knew too much. No one gave a reason for Jessica being scum and his attitude was downright toxic. He opens today voting someone who called him out for his shit.

If Math was town, he'd compare the Elmo wagons and draw conclusions from that.

I expected to be copped but it is what it is.

Based on my look, narrow parking should be scum. We're looking for largely ineffective people, whether it be through demoralization, lurking or some combination.

Mainly me scum.

Jessica argued I outed her alt (redacted) when Jada actually did. I used it to solidify the scumread on her and when she accused me of alt outing I used (redacted) in an analogy to explain which she (Jessica) then AtE’d more and ignored the actual source of the outing (Jada) which makes them very much linked.

Jada ends the day going “well I disagree but day has to end” pretty lethargically. Then today when asked for reads clammed up damn hard. And considering who Jada alt slipped as it’s a scum claim because this player never is quiet.

[MathBlade]

Sorry there’s not many specific posts I am working atm.

But you’re pushing what Jessica (mod conf scum) and Jada (almost certainly) is pushing that makes me suspicious of your slot.

Me being bug and townsiding is a valid argument (much as I disagree and think it’s silly bug play imho) but should be resolved quickly.

[MathBlade]

Jessica was gnosia.

This is from our coroner claim.

I guess I shouldn’t say mod conf but close enough.

[MathBlade]

Because I think you are scum... When you are in a grest bussing/bug slot?

Hmm

Yep. Pretty much this. I don’t think you’ve put thought into why I can’t be group scum based on the setup. And bug will likely resolve itself.

I fully expect NK15 to check me and scum can’t kill me to frame me as bug. So if I die I know it’s the scum NK and then NK15 clears me. If scum kill NK15 to avoid that possibility (assuming no doc protect) then the fact I am not dead confirms me not bug. The slimmest of margins that could be argued after tonight is traitor but then traitors generally die with the last scum.

I really don’t think you’re thinking your sus through.

[MathBlade]

Granted this is all on the assumption that Jessica’s block happened after hammer so it likely failed, but your argument is pretty much merit less. You’re pushing worlds that quite frankly likely do not exist (Eg Herta not being coroner)

Flipless is all about choking scum into ridiculous theories and that’s what you sound like.

[MathBlade]

Cop was supposed to check me so I got to play. I don't care to rehash my reads when I'm getting limmed and ignored anyway.

My ISO is there.

And that’s why you’re scum. Town you continued spouting theories to the last second.

You’re not town you.

[MathBlade]

Of course this is all Math's world and we are his servants.

No? I literally didn’t control the elim or much of anything yesterday. If I had we would be mass claimed and have a much narrower PoE imho

This is ate instead of reads.

[MathBlade]

If LLD is caught up I think we are good to go to voting phase.

Just waiting for her to catch up I think.

[MathBlade]

Decided to do something.

Name. Role/Alignment. Flavor Name. Special.

1. Herta. Coroner. Unknown. Unknown.

2. ProfessorDrapion. Unknown. Unknown. Unknown.
3. Roden. Unknown. Unknown. "Let's Collaborate", creates hood.

4. Jessica Rabbit. Gnosia. "Block Argument", Vote Redirection.

5. Esooa. Unknown. Unknown. Unknown.
6. Mathblade. Unknown. Gina. If someone susses them, learns special ability of said player.
7. Ranger. Unknown. Unknown. Unknown.
8. Freedom. Unknown. Unknown. Unknown.
9. FakeGod. Unknown. Unknown. "What is your Role?".
10. Jada. Unknown. Unknown. Unknown.
11. Enchant. Town. Kukrushka. "Regret"
12. beeboy. Unknown. Unknown. Unknown.
13. Lady Lambdadelta. Unknown. Unknown. Unknown.

14. Not Known 15. Engineer. Unknown. "State you are Human".

15. narrow parking. Unknown. Unknown. Unknown.


I remember someone claimed ability which recharges other abilities but i don't really have time. If you claimed something which i forgot please state.
We need to think which ability we want to recharge. MathBlade and FakeGod both can be useful.

This should be updated to Math town = Fake God telling truth about role as I checked him with my earlier play as Fake God felt sus.

[MathBlade]

I have a work fire to handle. May be ghostly invisible.

[MathBlade]

Vote Jada during freezing phase

Jessica flipped scum Jada hard defense no reads on day open.

That’s the super rough version might disappear rough day at work.

[MathBlade]

Well “flipped” as much as one can in flipless.

Her play of trying to vote manipulate/block NK15 and being coroner checked gnosia is “flipped” in this game.

[MathBlade]

Although Drapion your explanation seems weird that NK15 doesn’t have a result yet you move votes?

Can NK15 or Drapion explain?

[MathBlade]

Although Drapion your explanation seems weird that NK15 doesn’t have a result yet you move votes?

Can NK15 or Drapion explain?

Idk what you’re referring to?
Are you talking about me finding Jessica via reaction to Enchant and then NK15 putting more pressure on Jessica’s slot afterwards?

NK15 has no result because of a Jessica “block” right?

So why did you inherit something that moves votes?

I don’t follow.

[MathBlade]

Nevermind NK15 checked Enchant I did a dumb

Brain is like dead

[MathBlade]

Plan IMO:
Vote to Freeze Jada.
If neither are a Security Guard, Vote to Freeze FakeGod/MathBlade (tomorrow we can discuss which).
Not Known 15 investigates the other.
If bug not dead, maybe vote out Drapion (although I'm thinking he's just town).

That should cover the likely bug suspects.

Not a security guard. Already volunteered for cop check.

[MathBlade]

Because I think you are scum... When you are in a grest bussing/bug slot?

Hmm

Yep. Pretty much this. I don’t think you’ve put thought into why I can’t be group scum based on the setup. And bug will likely resolve itself.

I fully expect NK15 to check me and scum can’t kill me to frame me as bug. So if I die I know it’s the scum NK and then NK15 clears me. If scum kill NK15 to avoid that possibility (assuming no doc protect) then the fact I am not dead confirms me not bug. The slimmest of margins that could be argued after tonight is traitor but then traitors generally die with the last scum.

I really don’t think you’re thinking your sus through.

Cool. Welcome to not bug status for me. I have work fires and will get to this later.

[MathBlade]

Because I think you are scum... When you are in a grest bussing/bug slot?

Hmm

Yep. Pretty much this. I don’t think you’ve put thought into why I can’t be group scum based on the setup. And bug will likely resolve itself.

I fully expect NK15 to check me and scum can’t kill me to frame me as bug. So if I die I know it’s the scum NK and then NK15 clears me. If scum kill NK15 to avoid that possibility (assuming no doc protect) then the fact I am not dead confirms me not bug. The slimmest of margins that could be argued after tonight is traitor but then traitors generally die with the last scum.

I really don’t think you’re thinking your sus through.

Cool.

Welcome to not bug status for me.

I have work fires and will get to this later.

Nope. NK15 was roleblocked last night.

No status for you.

Then Drapion slot (now LLD) is confirmed scum since they lied and said it moved votes not roleblock and Jada voted herself to support the bluff unless scum have some secret roleblock which I doubt in flipless.

[MathBlade]

Unless now gimli my memory sucks

[MathBlade]

Let’s pretend I can English good.

[MathBlade]

I GOT IT!

The ability is you put “block argument like they did”, the requirement is the post must be about defending or pushing a player and they are forced to vote for that player in freeze phase.

This here.

So either NK 15 wasn’t blocked or NK15 was blocked and this is sus is where I am at.

[MathBlade]

I have no problem being eliminated but Gimli is lying or Drapion is when they said they didn’t do anything and they are the same slot.

As I said I doubt I get legit sus and I haven’t been told my ability refreshed so no idea if I can use it again

[MathBlade]

yeah i think professordrapion not gnosia because wanted to take credit for jessica rabbit elimination in like,

like a see i was useful even though i wasn’t on the wagon look that was me i did that sort of way

which would be, uh, uncommon for a partner i think

That's actually scummy to be off wagon, push for the other, then take credit

Block Argument

[MathBlade]

I just ask that we give me when I am not in the middle of fire central so I can give last reads and general advice since Herta will confirm me town.

[MathBlade]

Because I think you are scum... When you are in a grest bussing/bug slot?

Hmm

Yep. Pretty much this. I don’t think you’ve put thought into why I can’t be group scum based on the setup. And bug will likely resolve itself.

I fully expect NK15 to check me and scum can’t kill me to frame me as bug. So if I die I know it’s the scum NK and then NK15 clears me. If scum kill NK15 to avoid that possibility (assuming no doc protect) then the fact I am not dead confirms me not bug. The slimmest of margins that could be argued after tonight is traitor but then traitors generally die with the last scum.

I really don’t think you’re thinking your sus through.

Cool.

Welcome to not bug status for me.

I have work fires and will get to this later.

Nope. NK15 was roleblocked last night.

No status for you.

Then Drapion slot (now LLD) is confirmed scum since they lied and said it moved votes not roleblock and Jada voted herself to support the bluff unless scum have some secret roleblock which I doubt in flipless.

I'm not the Drapion slot, but nice try?

I literally corrected myself.

I still find you sus as well for your push on me

I am legit confirmed not bug so I don’t get this.

[MathBlade]

So Jada traitor?

[MathBlade]

Because I think you are scum... When you are in a grest bussing/bug slot?

Hmm

Yep. Pretty much this. I don’t think you’ve put thought into why I can’t be group scum based on the setup. And bug will likely resolve itself.

I fully expect NK15 to check me and scum can’t kill me to frame me as bug. So if I die I know it’s the scum NK and then NK15 clears me. If scum kill NK15 to avoid that possibility (assuming no doc protect) then the fact I am not dead confirms me not bug. The slimmest of margins that could be argued after tonight is traitor but then traitors generally die with the last scum.

I really don’t think you’re thinking your sus through.

Cool.

Welcome to not bug status for me.

I have work fires and will get to this later.

Nope. NK15 was roleblocked last night.

No status for you.

Then Drapion slot (now LLD) is confirmed scum since they lied and said it moved votes not roleblock and Jada voted herself to support the bluff unless scum have some secret roleblock which I doubt in flipless.

I'm not the Drapion slot, but nice try?

I literally corrected myself.

I still find you sus as well for your push on me

I am legit confirmed not bug so I don’t get this.

Enchant already explained this, Engineer got Roleblocked by his character ability. So you weren't checked last night.

?? Cop only gets results after checking someone

NK15 sends request to check me last night
Dies

So no way to know if blocked

So ergo I am town because scum shot NK15?

[MathBlade]

Like Enchant is just trolling because there is no tracker/watcher in the setup like?

[MathBlade]

I'm not sure what's going on with Drapion slot vs Math right now or why they think each other is lying. But from what I understand, the way Drapion described his ability is that Block Argument forces the target to vote for the person they indicated sus towards. Jada indicated sus towards Drapion, but self-voted instead (which might indicate a non-vote, per the game rules that would turn into a self-vote).

Gimli can you explain your character ability for us?

G said he didn’t “do anything” which means G is lying or Drapion is.

There is no outed ability that blocks a cop.

[MathBlade]

What’s more likely is that G is lying which would explain an NK15 block and the vote moving Drapion claimed is bullshit.

Which fine whatever flip me Herta says I am town and flip Drapion

[MathBlade]

The simple answer is Jessica somehow blocked the cop post hammer
Drapion inherited the ability, lied and then was forced to use it on Jada

Jada is either traitor or just super bad town leaning the traitor

[MathBlade]

Because of the inherent nature of flipless most abilities require a public activation of some kind to function.

I know I know trust Math is a problem.

Secret abilities like cop/doc/coroner will be out in the setup because of the inherent nature of flipless.

It’s also why most flipless tend to be vanilla.

I know it’s a ramble but I have about five minutes before I have to go back to work so you get what you get

[MathBlade]

Because I think you are scum... When you are in a grest bussing/bug slot?

Hmm

Yep. Pretty much this. I don’t think you’ve put thought into why I can’t be group scum based on the setup. And bug will likely resolve itself.

I fully expect NK15 to check me and scum can’t kill me to frame me as bug. So if I die I know it’s the scum NK and then NK15 clears me. If scum kill NK15 to avoid that possibility (assuming no doc protect) then the fact I am not dead confirms me not bug. The slimmest of margins that could be argued after tonight is traitor but then traitors generally die with the last scum.

I really don’t think you’re thinking your sus through.

Cool.

Welcome to not bug status for me.

I have work fires and will get to this later.

Nope. NK15 was roleblocked last night.

No status for you.

Then Drapion slot (now LLD) is confirmed scum since they lied and said it moved votes not roleblock and Jada voted herself to support the bluff unless scum have some secret roleblock which I doubt in flipless.

I'm not the Drapion slot, but nice try?

I literally corrected myself.

I still find you sus as well for your push on me

I am legit confirmed not bug so I don’t get this.

Enchant already explained this, Engineer got Roleblocked by his character ability. So you weren't checked last night.

?? Cop only gets results after checking someone

NK15 sends request to check me last night
Dies

So no way to know if blocked

So ergo I am town because scum shot NK15?

Did you forget what Enchant's passive ability does?

Enchant had claimed everything and the kitchen sink.

Far as I am concerned he’s a VT tomato

[MathBlade]

Sure he’s the cop coroner doctor mason guard VT traitor bug with a side of moderator

[MathBlade]

Yeah I don’t exactly believe that either. But whatever I guess I am not confirmed not bug if you do believe it.

I did all I could if you want to elim me over Drapion / G who “didn’t do anything” despite posting the Block Argument and despite them doing something in thread.

Drapion/Gimili and LLD just feel the most sus to me from having played this type of game the longest time.

[MathBlade]

I'm not sure what's going on with Drapion slot vs Math right now or why they think each other is lying. But from what I understand, the way Drapion described his ability is that Block Argument forces the target to vote for the person they indicated sus towards. Jada indicated sus towards Drapion, but self-voted instead (which might indicate a non-vote, per the game rules that would turn into a self-vote).

Gimli can you explain your character ability for us?

okay...
I inherit the ability of the first dead player.

Right which was Jessica

And you said “you didn’t do anything”

When you “got Jessica’s ability”
Your predecessor claimed it and “used” it on Jessica

Then you didn’t do anything supposedly.

…….

Can we please elim G on freeze?

[MathBlade]

No really I am not.

I have spent literally all game explaining the best ways to win and how to explore things and generally the best protown tips

I get told no even after voting games that win

I have explained that I am actually good town in flipless and demonstrating it.

Your slot is a thrice replaced slot that is a proven liar
We changed likely from one scum to another
You said did nothing and are now saying you used your ability on Jessica.

So yeah I am a bit annoyed.

I am absolutely sure scum and or Bug are pushing on me

[MathBlade]

also even if you feel so sure about me being scum, give me time to enter the game. I replaced into 80 pages, asking for my head like this isn't nice, math.

Then don’t lie and say you did nothing?

[MathBlade]

I have work fires and don’t have time for people lying.

[MathBlade]

I GOT IT!

The ability is you put “block argument like they did”, the requirement is the post must be about defending or pushing a player and they are forced to vote for that player in freeze phase.

yeah i think professordrapion not gnosia because wanted to take credit for jessica rabbit elimination in like,

like a see i was useful even though i wasn’t on the wagon look that was me i did that sort of way

which would be, uh, uncommon for a partner i think

That's actually scummy to be off wagon, push for the other, then take credit

Block Argument

If your town talk with the mod is all I have to say.

I have to go

[MathBlade]

Yeah I don’t exactly believe that either. But whatever I guess I am not confirmed not bug if you do believe it.

I did all I could if you want to elim me over Drapion / G who “didn’t do anything” despite posting the Block Argument and despite them doing something in thread.

Drapion/Gimili and LLD just feel the most sus to me from having played this type of game the longest time.

What about their play has been sus?

Mainly their play on replace in.

LLD immediately coming after me when Jessica came after me hard is imho pretty sus unless you think I just command my team to bus me hard and make a plan that would put me as scum? So like ???

LLD has also been sussing me and I haven’t been told my ability refreshed. I don’t think she genuinely scumreads me I just don’t get that vibe. So either A) big reaction test and she’s town or B) scum have really wanted me dead.

[MathBlade]

I trust Drapion as it doesn't make sense otherwise.

What do you mean? What doesn't make sense?

I feel like Drapion was telling the truth about knowing Jessica's ability as it would be hyper weird for him to not know what his inherited ability did.

Why can't Drapion just...lie? He can know what his ability actually does, but lie to us and give us a fake description.

I think he just didn’t ISO his replacement and didn’t know what to claim.

[MathBlade]

Jada was human

This changes things.

While we

may

have a dead traitor (not guaranteed), we're confirmed to have 2 gnosia alive.

Bug needs to die like today

Actually, with two Gnosia still alive, I'd prefer to hunt the Gnosia.

We can afford to not hit the bug today.

We can't afford to keep letting two Gnosia live.

I'd suggest an elimination in {narrow parking, beeboy} (maybe Freedom) as that group likely contains a Gnosia. I want two dead Gnosia before bug-hunting because the Gnosia can give us an extra elimination if they hit the bug (if they didn't already).

I am fine with that PoE but add Drapion and LLD

[MathBlade]

Night 2 Freeze Vote

Jada (12): Herta, ProfessorDrapion, Esooa, Mathblade, Ranger, Freedom, FakeGod, Enchant, beeboy, Lady Lambdadelta, Not Known 15, narrow parking,
Roden (1): Roden
Lady Lambdadelta (1): Jada


Not voting (0):

Jada has been frozen!

Finding replacement for Roden.

Huh, ok, it adds up then if the VC was the error. The ability seems real now.

How?

Jada was originally voting Jada?

The post they blocked didn’t sus LLD?

If anything this is more suspicious?

[MathBlade]

Night 2 Freeze Vote

Jada (12): Herta, ProfessorDrapion, Esooa, Mathblade, Ranger, Freedom, FakeGod, Enchant, beeboy, Lady Lambdadelta, Not Known 15, narrow parking,
Roden (1): Roden
Lady Lambdadelta (1): Jada


Not voting (0):

Jada has been frozen!

Finding replacement for Roden.

The old version of this post had Jada voting Jada and now she was voting LLD. Where did Jada sus LLD and where did Drapion post Block Argument?

[MathBlade]

beeboy has done nothing since replacing in. That in of itself is suspect.

By play, I believe Jessica town;
By play, I feel all of {beeboy, FakeGod, Elmo, narrow parking} are suspect.

Basically, Jessica has given reads under pressure, while being incredibly emotionally compromised. The "AtE" is nai by itself given the reason to be upset exists regardless of alignment, but her expressal of it looks town.

I've come to the conclusion Jessica Rabbit is likely town. Not not-Gnosia; likely town.

I don’t think Jessica is Gnosia.

I would prefer not to lim Jessica today.

VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN
I'd prefer this.

Ranger's hard defense of Jessica yesterday looks really bad.

It looks so bad that I question whether a scum would defend her buddy like this.

a traitor that scumread jessica rabbit definitely would

Agree with this.

Jada was agreeing with LLD/Shiki not sussing the slot?

[MathBlade]

I will PM MariaR and ask if all abilities accounted for but this doesn’t add up.

[MathBlade]

Imo my theories.

1. Jada was GA. Gnosia have some way to learn identity of dead players instantly or was sure enough about it to attack NK15 instantly. Most likely from specials.
2. GA decided to gambit. Rookie mistake. But why Gnosia attack then? Did they knew about gambit?
3. Gnosia have way to prevent protections. Why they didn't use it... First night?
4. Gnosia roleblocked GA. Most unbelievable: not only they need to know who GA, they need to have roleblock ability.


So... You know. Time to hardclaim your specials.

You know my is Regret.

I want everyone else to claim or Confirm their special abilities. It's necessary to learn who could prevent NK15 protect.

If you are not agree you free to object me, but you need hell reason.

Yay! We might finally mass claim!

*does a dance of happy*

I am claimed already except I now happy dance.

(Happy dance has no mechanical benefit just I am happy this might be a thing.)

[MathBlade]

Roden can you explain how the modified VC makes sense please? Since it made sense to you?

[MathBlade]

I can compromise on narrow but I don’t understand how others aren’t calling for Gimili’s head since we need to have at most two wagons.

[MathBlade]

I can compromise on narrow but I don’t understand how others aren’t calling for Gimili’s head since we need to have at most two wagons.

Your argument for gimli is they Sussed you right? That's just not all that compelling. If it was more objective sure.

It’s that and when the sus started happening and why and the mechanical claim makes no sense.

[MathBlade]

Because I think you are scum... When you are in a grest bussing/bug slot?

Hmm

Trust me Lady.
Math isn’t Group wolf.
Suicidal play as Traitor.

Can very well be bug though but that’s why we have a GA to protect the cop so they can kill the Bug.

do we know why my predecessor was sure Math wasn't group wolf? or, is that a read?

Because it would be a suicidal double bus that’s absolutely horrible in flipless games?

I will re-review your ISO when not busy but I don’t like people doing sneaky shit after being called out on it.

The votecounts do match now which was my primary argument but this just feels so icky

[MathBlade]

Like if you’re town I shouldn’t have had to call you out on the “mistake”

[MathBlade]

I can compromise on narrow but I don’t understand how others aren’t calling for Gimili’s head since we need to have at most two wagons.

Gimli's ability has been proven to be true, per the mod correcting what was originally a mod error. The fact there was a publicly announced mod error and the corrected vc supports the claim indicates the mod error was not factoring Gimil's role. Ergo, Gimli's power is proven true.

The slot is spewed as not-Gnosia from the Jessica interactions. While bug/traitor are possible, today we should hunt gnosia and Gimli is essentially confirmed not-Gnosia.

If you want competing wagons,

I like the idea of killing beeboy, since it's potatoing much harder than I am as a replacement.

How about narrow?

I'd prefer dueling {narrow parking, beeboy} wagons.

Sounds good to me. I don’t know if I agree with the first part of the day not gnosia but the ability was revised. I do agree with not today.

[MathBlade]

I am going to sheep FakeGod since I am hella busy. Whoever Fake says we’re voting I am voting.

[MathBlade]

I could vote Elmo or beeyboy, I guess. I’m not tr either.

Not feeling beeboy wagons either.

[MathBlade]

Not sure if you’re counting me in that four but I am just a vote clone of Fake God.

[MathBlade]

Whatever happened to mass claim? Does anyone want me to play microwave? (Aka start popcorn)

[MathBlade]

Which does….

[MathBlade]

Then why not trigger it two seconds before the end of a day?

Then there’s no neg utility.

I don’t buy the claim.

I buy what you are saying is true I just think there’s more to it

[MathBlade]

Then why not trigger it two seconds before the end of a day?

Then there’s no neg utility.

I don’t buy the claim.

I buy what you are saying is true I just think there’s more to it

what else do u think there could be??

Make yourself ascetic,
Make a vote count invisible
Obscure role related info

That’s off the top of my head

[MathBlade]

We should keep going with mass claim though.

The main value we have with flipless is transparent communication.

Then if on a day we have a weird unaccounted for effect it is highly unlikely the evil team has a secret power because we would have no way to detect it like in a flipful game.

Since we are denied any sort of VCA (which is usually used in flipless) this is equally important.

It’s about building that trust of people so even if your action is only like 75% EV rather than 100% but lack of trust it is in town’s best interest for the 75%.

So please be transparent if you’re town.

[MathBlade]

Name. Role/Alignment. Flavor Name. Special.

1. Herta. Coroner. Unknown. Unknown.

2. Gimli. Unknown. Unknown. Inherits Dead Player Ability.
3. Roden. Unknown. Unknown. "Let's Collaborate", Creates hood.

4. Jessica Rabbit. Gnosia. "Block Argument", Vote Redirection.

5. Esooa. Unknown. Raqio. If someone susses them, can place additional vote.
6. Mathblade. Unknown. Gina. If someone susses them, learns special ability of said player.
7. Ranger. Unknown. Setsu. "Vote!" Forces normal elimination phase.
8. Freedom. Unknown. Sha-Ming. Grovel. Can try to save self if voted out.
9. FakeGod. Unknown. Unknown. "What is your Role?".
10. Jada. Unknown. Unknown. Unknown.
11. Enchant. Town. Kukrushka. "Regret"
12. beeboy. Unknown. Unknown. Unknown.
13. Lady Lambdadelta. Unknown. Unknown. Unknown.

14. Not Known 15. Engineer. Unknown. "State you are Human".

15. narrow parking. Unknown. Unknown. Obfuscate.


Missing Herta, Jada (but we never know prob), beeboy, LLD

Add I confirmed FakeGod’s ability. When I get elimmed which if we can’t find a consensus myself is good since we have a coroner alive and I am spent.

I am legit steering you in the right way.

[MathBlade]

Name. Role/Alignment. Flavor Name. Special.

1. Herta. Coroner. Unknown. Unknown.

2. Gimli. Unknown. Unknown. Inherits Dead Player Ability.
3. Roden. Unknown. Unknown. "Let's Collaborate", Creates hood.

4. Jessica Rabbit. Gnosia. "Block Argument", Vote Redirection.

5. Esooa. Unknown. Raqio. If someone susses them, can place additional vote.
6. Mathblade. Unknown. Gina. If someone susses them, learns special ability of said player.
7. Ranger. Unknown. Setsu. "Vote!" Forces normal elimination phase.
8. Freedom. Unknown. Sha-Ming. Grovel. Can try to save self if voted out.
9. FakeGod. Unknown. Unknown. "What is your Role?".
10. Jada. Unknown. Unknown. Unknown.
11. Enchant. Town. Kukrushka. "Regret"
12. beeboy. Unknown. Unknown. Unknown.
13. Lady Lambdadelta. Unknown. Unknown. Unknown.

14. Not Known 15. Engineer. Unknown. "State you are Human".

15. narrow parking. Unknown. Unknown. Obfuscate.


Missing Herta, Jada (but we never know prob), beeboy, LLD

Shiki claimed some sort of refiller. LLD inherited the slot. Beeboy is the last one to not claim. Check Shiki’s ISO.

Then we just have to make some sort of accountability loop from it.

Too tired to do that myself

[MathBlade]

VOTE: MathBlade

The more I think about it, the more likely I think I am a good elim for town.

I think I have given town the tools to succeed and that you should socially read everyone for the powers.

The game is designed to confirm people.

Confirm me and you confirm Fake God’s ability.

Then you can leash LLD to give a known ability another go.

In theory then Herta confirms me as good.

Then can keep going forward flipful.

[MathBlade]

It’s also telling scum shot the cop over Herta the coroner

Which means scum 100% believe me when I said coroner is more important.

So elim me I flip town then go on and do social reads with Fake God being a good person to sort based on recharge or not.

[MathBlade]

I know votes are spiritual but I think my elim clears up a lot of worlds for people.

[MathBlade]

MathBlade stop voting yourself

Why not?

It removes a bug world and forces LLD to refresh a known entity so no scum refresh.

Then you use your ability on someone and boom.

I fail to see the problem or where it’s anti town.

[MathBlade]

It also exposes my Shiki/LLD deep wolf read pretty well more than my words can say.

[MathBlade]

Responding to prod. Happy to move on.

I’d actually like your thoughts on eliminating me please

[MathBlade]

my ability sucks - it can only catch traitor

I leaned town on shiki slot long before LLD got here

I'm sorta pondering if scum ranger would hard defend jessica, but I think we just execute narrow parking today

I think we need to execute me before Herta dies to eliminate me!Bug worlds.

I 100% do not trust LLD here.

[MathBlade]

my ability sucks - it can only catch traitor

I leaned town on shiki slot long before LLD got here

I'm sorta pondering if scum ranger would hard defend jessica, but I think we just execute narrow parking today

I think we need to execute me before Herta dies to eliminate me!Bug worlds.

I 100% do not trust LLD here.

I'm not dying until after the GA dies right?

Right, but I am scared we won’t know when that is.

But if you say no, narrow it is, but if you die I will defend myself if put up.

We need to elim me before you die to elim me bug.

[MathBlade]

And that's going to narrow the poe anyway so it seems better to wait. If we flip scum today then we can talk more about it tomorrow, but I don't think we need to bug hunt just yet.

Fair enough.

[MathBlade]

I think we should consider eliminating the player who is asking to be eliminated.

I'll happily refresh a town power, though, that's not all the role can do. It apparently can also remove a power?

So LLD is scum or bug. Lolz.

[MathBlade]

Math, if you're town this game I hope you consider taking a position in mafia games going forward that checks your own ego and doesn't automatically suspect anyone who suspects you.

Because that's part of your general MO and it's what makes you impossible to play with.

You are the reason I have had a hard time engaging with this game. No one else, just you.

At this point I would happily push for you to die just so I could actually enjoy playing this game without having to defend myself from baseless OMGUS arguments that are founded on literal nothing besides "I'm too townie to be scum so you must be scum teehee".

Genuinely Unpleasant to deal with.

If you read this game that’s not my MO here.

I was sus of Shiki before you repped in.

[MathBlade]

This is not an opportunistic situation of "oh look someone is voting themselves let's kill them"

this is "oh look the person I've been scumreading for days is pulling a weird gambit trying to kill themselves, let's not allow them to use that to generate sympathy and avoid being PoE'd and killed".

I am not doing that. I agree I should be flipped before Herta dies. I just think that you should flip after I do.

[MathBlade]

We can do narrow but I am a ticking time bomb because if I were scum I would (redacted)

I’d like to be eliminated within 1-2 days if not today. I don’t want to be near elo without confirmation then me and FakeGod would have some mech firms and social reads.

We need to work on building a circle of trust that evil can’t penetrate and work on elimming people outside.

[MathBlade]

Elimming town isn’t horrible in a flipless you learn who went where and why.

[MathBlade]

For the record LLD’s attack is particularly sus because it’s emotional manipulation but it’s not based on facts.

At game open I was deliberately sus to get as many people to express that suspicion.

If I suspected everyone who did that I would be suspecting 3/4ths the game.

90% of this game will be played on the emotional tier.

The scum team knows I am giving good advice to town and want me dead.

[MathBlade]

I think LLD if town (which is less and less likely) has a perception of how I play versus how I do on flipless. I think anyone who is actually hunting me can see it.

[MathBlade]

I think LLD if town (which is less and less likely) has a perception of how I play versus how I do on flipless. I think anyone who is actually hunting me can see it.

What are your reads, besides the self voting thing?

Narrow is gnosia probably with a mid tier player
I don’t think beeboy slot is gnosia for reactions by Jessica

Mid tier player is a place holder because I find someone fits it.

The fact LLD hasn’t refreshed Ranger Fake God or me so I find her mechanically sus

The ability to do VCA in a flipless game is one of the biggest ways to catch scum.

Once a certain number are elimmed we then know that either A) the game would be won or B) at least one person HAS to be town, who is that town and why?

Flipful is forwards flipless is backwards.

Is it possible LLD is town yes?

I have been up nearly 24 hours straight this is posted on a break. This isn’t detailed and I am sorry.

I when playing flipless look for certain conditions of knowledge etc.

Look at how I found infinity in the game I linked earlier for details

Do that while I sleep and you can likely build a PoE

[MathBlade]

VOTE: MathBlade
The more I think about it, the more likely I think I am a good elim for town.

Nice try Bug but you're not going to convince us to bughunt instead of gnosia hunt.

The bug's win condition is apparently to endgame whichever faction would've won as long as the bug remains alive. The bug does need to die before we eliminate the last gnosia, but we've confirmation via Herta two gnosia are alive right now.

Ergo, there is absolutely no way for the bug to endgame the town overnight.

There is however a tangible benefit to eliminating gnosia today. Two gnosia alive can kill Enchant without forfeiting a nightkill. One gnosia alive cannot. Two gnosia alive can plan together during the night phase, sharing theories, strategies, and forming a path to victory. One gnosia alive has only themselves.

Fear-hunting for the bug is +bug.

We know the bug is alive.
We know there's two gnosia alive.
There may or may not be a traitor.
But per there being two gnosia alive, we need to eliminate a second gnosia today.

do we know that bug and traitor is for sure alive?

My hunch is Jada was traitor but both worlds need to be explored.

[MathBlade]

roden/ranger/narrow parking was my POE

explanations were in pg 87 or something

Fake god I think is on narrow

[MathBlade]

Herta, can you remind us what your ability is?
I can't remember if you claimed it after Enchant made the list.

Herta = unCCd Coroner = has to be good

[MathBlade]

I’m out with friends. Will be online late late tonight or tomorrow.

[MathBlade]

I publicly ask someone to state their role, and they must do so, unless they are Gnosia, Bug, or Guardian Angel.

I confirmed with the mod that traitors will be forced to reveal that they are a traitor.

I already used my role on NK15 in 396.

I am a rolecop ish ability that if someone susses me I can get their ability and I used it on Fake God so circle of trust there.

[MathBlade]

here's a shower thought i had

the bug wins if they get us to think that the remaining gnosia member is the bug and we freeze them

so if we can find the remaining gnosia member and protect them for a bit until we feel confident the bug is gone

i think it's doable based on interactions with the scum slots, i'll try to take a look and see who i think it is

is that something?

Kind of?

I have been sussed most of the game as bug by rather scummy slots. Given Narrow flipped Gnosia my offer still stands to be the freeze.

My main suspicion for last Gnosia is LLD for not refilling Ranger.

I need sus in order to power my rolecop assuming LLD refreshes me but I doubt she will.

Bug unfortunately is going to be a matter of attrition but socially they are probably not on narrow parking during the day as to avoid focus. Your slot makes a good bug but I kinda am opposed to eliminating immediate replacements.

Mainly we need to force LLD to use her power optimally in whatever way Town decides sooner rather than later using the mass claim list enchant is doing.

This is flipless where I am actually good town (yeah I know weird) but can provide a source here on MS and a new social deduction game Blood on the Clocktower which I love is also flipless.

Mainly we are beginning to move towards the more socially part of the game to where we need people to trust and to make sure people are trustworthy.

[MathBlade]

It’s my opinion that Jada was the traitor based on gamestate, play, and experience, but in terms of elims we just have to eliminate Bug before the last Gnosia and we win. So in the case I am wrong on Jada it doesn’t matter because as long as doctor lives this game is flipful and if we eliminate a human then we know we are still big hunting.

[MathBlade]

Name. Role/Alignment. Flavor Name. Special.

1. Herta. Coroner. Unknown. Unknown.

2. Gimli. Unknown. Unknown. Inherits Dead Player Ability. Supposedly used on Jada.
3. Roden. Unknown. Unknown. "Let's Collaborate", Creates hood.

4. Jessica Rabbit. Gnosia. "Block Argument", Vote Redirection.

5. Esooa. Unknown. Raqio. If someone susses them, can place additional vote.
6. Mathblade. Unknown. Gina. If someone susses them, learns special ability of said player.
7.

Ranger. Unknown. Setsu. "Vote!" Forces normal elimination phase.

8. Freedom. Unknown. Sha-Ming. Grovel. Can try to save self if voted out.

9. FakeGod. Unknown. Unknown. "What is your Role?".

<< Is true claiming ability based on MathBlade checking them.

10. Jada. Unknown. Unknown. Unknown.

<< Likely traitor

11. Enchant. Town. Kukrushka. "Regret"

12. beeboy. Unknown. Unknown. Unknown.
13. Lady Lambdadelta. Unknown. Unknown. Refreshes a 1 shot ability.

14. Not Known 15. Engineer. Unknown. "State you are Human".

15. narrow parking. Unknown. Unknown. Obfuscate.

Jada (but we never know prob), beeboy,

Anything not colored is a good big vote mechanically.
I think LLD is a bad bug vote socially (likely gnosia)

The last gnosia is likely not going to want to vote an actual bug read.

The main issue is we are likely elimming in our Doctor pool for our bug and gnosia pool.

if I mess up the formatting sorry just sneaking this in during a major cleaning day

[MathBlade]

Also fyi the roles are named weird
Just ignore that

Our main PR conf inno is Herta which learns alignment on flip.
The other PR which can never claim doctor is the doctor.

Everyone else is one shots.

[MathBlade]

I think it's possible that mafia shot at Roden night 1 and failed their kill?

I think it's possible that mafia shot at Roden night 1 and failed their kill?

I don't get why though.
Wouldn't they've been more interested in shooting the GA?

It’s possible but I don’t think they kill Roden though unless they had a reason to think GA.

I think they likely know who the bug is though.

With StD being a replace I kinda want them to catch up.

Then if the group thinks Roden was the bug we can execute StD just unless it’s overwhelming I like to give people a day.

[MathBlade]

So it just says "traitor" or "non traitor"

No, it reveals their role, but Bug, Gnosia, and Guardian Angel can lie.

If it hits a town power role, it's going to reveal their role.

Do you want to take another shot at it? I just question if that's a good idea.

I legit don’t get why you’re not bugging me though.

I am practically confirmed not group scum here.

[MathBlade]

So it just says "traitor" or "non traitor"

No, it reveals their role, but Bug, Gnosia, and Guardian Angel can lie.

If it hits a town power role, it's going to reveal their role.

Do you want to take another shot at it? I just question if that's a good idea.

I legit don’t get why you’re not bugging me though.

I am practically confirmed not group scum here.

I think it makes sense for LLD to not want to give you a refill.
In this setup, being not group scum ≠ being Town and LLD doesn't seem to be TRing you.

In general that is correct but there’s 3 possible worlds assuming she does.

A) I am town.
B1) I am bug who then picks someone and tells the truth. Town elims me out of paranoia. Due to numbers (based on the method I taught before) I am confirmed town and you learn that the I am bug world is false.
B2) I am bug who then picks someone and lies. That person counter claims me. We elim both and counter claimer. I know we get bug or group scum.
C) I am group scum. Repeat same ifs.

She doesn’t have to TR me to check me, there’s just no good options otherwise left.

Jada was almost certainly not town so traitor or bug. Given how hard Jada defended Jessica’s obvious scum meta traitor makes most sense.

[MathBlade]

I think it's possible that mafia shot at Roden night 1 and failed their kill?

Why do you think this

There’s no kill on the first night.

Either scum hit bug or doc protected player.

And LLD is just fearmongering to avoid using it.

I wondering if she is even truthtelling here.

[MathBlade]

I forget if traitor is BP but that’s also an option if it is. (Again doubtful)

[MathBlade]

We can just do me today then make sure LLD doesn’t survive to end game.

But LLD should refresh me so I can provide info on the way out.

Her defense is a lazy “no you” and she’s not hunting at all

She should be looking to prove her role and she’s not.

If we do me today you promise LLD later

[MathBlade]

I don't see the point of mass claiming.

It’s about creating and maintaining accountability.

In a flipful game you have that accountability with seeing vote movement and flips.

Here we don’t have vote movements and if things go horribly (I hope not) we lose flips.

It’s about creating a commmunity.

[MathBlade]

Exactly as StD said.

It’s about building trust and showing people are what they say they are.

LLD can’t prove herself and it’s why Ranger died. She’s outed Gnosia

It’s a matter of finding the last bug.

If you have to elim me to do it fine but you’re still bug hunting tomorrow.

[MathBlade]

It’s not what the ability is but whether it makes sense and is protown

It could be send a meme of a dragon to StD for all I care.

It’s about shoring up relationships and those abilities are one of the best tools we have to do so.

[MathBlade]

I will be afk until after the outage. Good luck everyone.

[MathBlade]

Already said I am not a mason

[MathBlade]

You bug hunt by starving it out.

We have relationship data from the prior days.

Flipless is very different from flipful.

You’re playing backwards rather than forwards.

It’s about building the relationships and seeing if what someone says due to the test of time.

If town decides it’s me y’all do but imho I am pretty obvTown.

With only two evils alive imho we can afford a miselim or two.

[MathBlade]

Jada imho was pretty obvious traitor. Jada was obviously evil and the “cop was supposed to check me so I can play” is not something a bug says. Since she came up human traitor is the only thing that works. She’s done that defeatist crap as scum.

I am viewed as the threat otherwise LLD would be full claiming the secondary thing and letting me check her

Just assuming people don’t lie in a mafia game is silly.

[MathBlade]

If you flip me you 100% do not let LLD live ever

[MathBlade]

Whoever is fine, I will be working a lot. I will vote wherever I am asked by Herta and FG.

[MathBlade]

elmo the azn was the counterwagon to jessica rabbit, it is who gnosia were pushing. i think i'd rather freeze esooa for that reason because i think they could be bug and i don't think they are gnosia.

Esooa is GD with FakeGod though I think?

[MathBlade]

Nevermind it’s getryoat good with esooa or me or whoever

[MathBlade]

Dead cop said green result

[MathBlade]

Bug would be roleblocked that night and gnosia would not be town.

[MathBlade]

I’d rather just freeze me to be honest

I trust town to freeze LLD eventually or Esoaa.

I gave the tools and this should be a town win. We can afford it.

LLD refreshing someone or die tomorrow is my last request.