i designed this setup in 2019 [game over]

[Prince of Paterson]

Ranger, no one is going to towncase imaginality. That's not how it works. I'm not spending my time arguing about things I know to be true. It helps precisely no one. Casing someone means being open to feedback and I'm well NOT.

Cases are to make an argument.

A case is presenting a viewpoint.

A case CAN be simply gathering your beliefs and opening them up to criticism (what you're saying is a case) but I'll bet you most players don’t share that definition, and would instead say the primary purpose of a case is to

convince

players on a read, by presenting the reasons for the read to be true.

If imaginality was truly conftown to you, you wouldn't have needed to use exclusively breadcrumbs of masonry to defend him from the Suspicion.
You would have seen the merits by which he was town, and been able to argue his towniness from your lens of knowing he is town. You would still breadcrumb, but you wouldn’t rely exclusively on breadcrumbs to defend him.

You didn’t, because he's not actually conftown to you and you know it. You didn’t see his posts through the lens of

knowing

he's town and the resulting knowledge letting you see how his posts are town. If you saw so much as a single thing not role related to townread him by, you'd have pointed it out when defending him, with the breadcrumbs as secondary.

Instead, you instantly defaulted to relying exclusively on breadcrumbs to try and avert the wagon on him, because you can't see him as town off of play due to him not being conftown.

I know I'm right and you know I'm right. You might be frustrated by me ruining your gambit, but I am frustrated by your gambit

protecting scum

.

It doesn't work like that. I disagree that town always has a town-motivated reason for what they're doing, and you just have to find it. I think that there is an insane amount of overlap between town posting and scum posting to the point where everything is almost a guess -- at least on D1

But, anyway, that aside. Here's the post.

Oh boy, do I really want to read or

VOTE: Frog

P.S. imaginality is town k thx

Titus' second post of the game, and it was in response to a 4-vote wagon on imagine

I mean, yeah, weird that she didn't at bare minimum let imagine do his thing or defend him from an angle other than "We're both conf!town".

I could see Titus and imagine's wincon's being intertwined on like a 2 person team split from the main group(s), maybe.

It makes absolutely no sense for her to claim masons with say a mafia scumbuddy. It also doesn't make sense to reveal that you're both masons at the beginning of the game as actual masons?? Why wouldn't you just reveal that imagine is a mason, at worst?

Maybe they're like a delinquent duo and they had a gameplan to pose as masons from the start. It's sketchy. It also could be lazy. Town can do that, it can be a weird scum gambit, I don't know

Echoing this post, bolding for emphasis. I found Titus and Imaginality to both be very scummy while reading and I think that Morning Tweet's idea makes a lot of sense here.

[Prince of Paterson]

Titus crumbling far too early specifically fits in with players who planned to pose as masons from the start and were excited to put their plan into action. I don't believe her given reason, that a wagon on town provides no info.

[Prince of Paterson]

IDK it's been forever since I read, I'm here later to talk to people

I honestly think if you'd actually read you'd know and understand why Frog got voted out
he was all bark and no bite, with a really bad attitude

Typically, reading from an outsider's perspective makes things like this easier to spot. I had the same feeling as Gimli, but I understand that things are different when they're happening live and the player is directly engaging with you. I wouldn't suspect Gimli for this.

[Prince of Paterson]

I am sorry I don’t follow your train of logic Prince.

I don’t think Titus is evil here. She’s pretty experienced and the site meta is to crumb masons early.

Titus in general likes being masons but hates finding them as they screw with her reads.

Is there something I am missing here?

Having called it a crumb was incorrect, my mistake. Crumbs early are standard. She softed the role (strongly, and then outright claimed) to reduce pressure on Imaginality when there wasn't yet a significant wagon there. I believe that someone who knew Imaginality was town would have faith that others would correctly see him as town, and someone who knew Imaginality was scum would be more likely to believe that others would correctly see him as scum. I believe that feeling the need to claim her role early shows which mindset she had.

[Prince of Paterson]

I find both, especially Imaginality, to be suspicious independent of the point about softing early, so I don't think it's very important.

[Prince of Paterson]

I don't really agree that psychiatrist is powerful PR, but it points we have Serial Killer.

Let me run you through the process I have.

We know there was a Psychiatrist. Psychiatrists specifically cure Serial Killers.

We have two nightkills last night, indicating a serial killer was active last night.

We have a duo, Titus + imaginality, who have claimed masons, but whose play does not match that of town masons.

My conclusion is Titus and imaginality are likely a serial killer duo, who likely could have been converted into a vigilante duo had Frogsterking targeted them.

I would happily vote imaginality as a result. There's arguments to be made on holding back. Leashing the serial killers is potentially viable; the theory of them being 3p, while sound, is not 100% definitive, and usually it's better to hunt for scum than to hunt for 3p. I feel a discussion is warranted, but will happily park my vote on anyone with a high chance of being nontown. What type of scum we eliminate is less important; eliminating scum regardless of type is the goal.

Sounds alright to me.

VOTE: Imaginality

[Prince of Paterson]

I think this looks tvt to me. I also believe Titus’ mason claim and I don’t think she’d likely use the phrase “mod confirmed” if scum - especially how much she’s insisting on it.

"mod confirmed" is just as easy to lie about as any other fakeclaim. This makes no sense. Why have multiple people said this?

[Prince of Paterson]

Owl's 906 tone not aligning with their later conclusions is strange, I agree. I don't like their current scumreads either, I think Cat Scratch Fever is town. I would like to see more from them though, I don't feel confident in voting there.

Elements is probably town. Their day 1 approach is consistently curious and engaging with the thread in a way that feels like town trying to solve. The series of questions starting in 490, for example. Similarly, the discussion with Frogsterking starting in 503. Both just give the impression of uninformed town. I don't think Elements is a good vote.

[Prince of Paterson]

New reads: I think KittyTacky, UltimateGamer (Ythan), and Gimli (Vaxkiller) are town. Kitten around is scum.

On board with all of these.

[Prince of Paterson]

Like they've now full claimed, but I don't think anything in their full claim made them any townier?

Well, beyond fullclaims just inspiring a bit more confidence than a flat "we're masons", there's the fact that Titus's claim of N5 Suicide Bomber recontextualizes their

very first

message into a big crumb:

Things need to go BOOM!

This one doubts a suicide bomber fakeclaim would be thought up as soon as THAT, especially the oddly specific combination of being an N4 bomber and a mason. Of course there's always room for Insane Shenanigans And Masterful Manipulation but. This one feels a lot better about it as a whole, it'd say.

I am not sure if it is aware but crumbing certain roles is common on here.

I suspect that whatever Titus’s alignment unalive bombing is a part of it. It’s a matter of if she is actually an unalive bomber who is town or has some nasty evil explosion. It wouldn’t be above Titus if scum pick their roles since one of her favorites is when she was an unalive bomber and scum and town kept counter claiming her for no reason

Not sure what to expect here. As someone who knows Titus, would you expect that it's likely for her to crumb in her very first post as scum and lock herself in to a specific claim?

There's not a lot of benefit that I can see to claiming suicide bomber as scum even in the event that it's true, because the role can only be confirmed by the player's death.

[Prince of Paterson]

I would like to hear what MathBlade has to say.

[Prince of Paterson]

Feel better about Math being town based on response and latest behavior.

VOTE: kitten around

[Prince of Paterson]

I don't know why Enchant would post 1731 as scum. It seems like a mindset that they'd be unlikely to possess.

[Prince of Paterson]

This is awesome. I’m basically getting run up because I apparently had an unpopular reaad

Clarify which unpopular read of yours is the reason why you're getting run up, please.

[Prince of Paterson]

VOTE: McMenno

I know this won’t happen but it should.

Answer 1851.

[Prince of Paterson]

Not_Mafia doesn't seem to be any more likely to be scum than random, so I'm not interested in voting there at this time.

[Prince of Paterson]

This is awesome. I’m basically getting run up because I apparently had an unpopular reaad

Clarify which unpopular read of yours is the reason why you're getting run up, please.

I’m assuming it’s either because I defended QA or because I misunderstood Titus’ claim but I know at least one person posited me as buddies with them and Titus is voting me for apparently being a UG buddy now? lol. I’m extremely fascinated how people are even coming up with these wild takes.

Do you have any posts you can quote that explain the origin of your belief that the primary reason for you getting run up was that you had an unpopular read? Where did this idea come from? My understanding of the primary reason for why you were getting run up was that you weren't scumhunting and didn't have a town mindset and it had nothing to do with any unpopular reads.

I would like to know what made you believe otherwise, because for someone who believes strongly that there is scum pushing your wagon, it doesn't feel like you have made any real attempts to even understand why people are voting you. That to me seems like it would be a prerequisite to determining who is pushing you maliciously.

Treating all of the suspicion as an undifferentiated block, being unsure who has what reasons, and being unsure what the reasons even are, seems more likely to be a result of scum knowing that the push is all coming from town. In the eyes of the mafia, town are all the same and the details of the reasons don't matter because the result is correct. Believing strongly that there is scum on the wagon but still treating the people on the wagon as interchangeable is at best negligent from town, but much more likely to be a result of viewing the game from a scum perspective.

[Prince of Paterson]

As I already told to Gimli, fair enough but I didn’t have any confident scumreads but now I do and it thinks it’s extremely naive to think there’s not at least one scum voting me and rn, McMenno is my best guess for that.

Reasoning behind McMenno? I don't think believing that there is at least one scum voting you qualifies as a confident scumread because again, it doesn't appear that you have read or understood the reasons why people are voting you. In order to determine who is scum voting you, it would be prudent of you to investigate on that subject. Your lack of interest in doing so is suspicious to me.

[Prince of Paterson]

I'm scumleaning KA after ISOing, it's taking a lot of safe stances from the first day and their reads don't feel maleable like a towny. I haven't read the entirety of it but I can see why people want it dead.

Explain why you were willing to resist the wagon earlier and call it garbage and search for other options when you hadn't really read the slot? Or had you read before and came to a different conclusion this time? What specific posts from kitten did you previously find towny and what made you more willing to reassess now?

[Prince of Paterson]

Also, I believe Not_Mafia's discussion with MathBlade is coming from town.

[Prince of Paterson]

My vote is probably not leaving Kitten Around until they're eliminated, I think they're extremely likely to be scum. Thanks for the explanation, Gimli, that's fine I suppose. I'd appreciate if you help campaign for votes on Kitten since you seem to be better at that than me.

As an aside, I find that it's very rare that all of the scum are in the lurkers. There might be one or two, and they're often worth eliminating, but I believe games are won or lost on being able to sort out which of the low content players are town. Every town that you can find in the lurkers removes one miselimination that scum were likely counting on being available to them.

[Prince of Paterson]

The main reason I townread Ranger early was because I believed they were on the right track with Gamma, Imaginality, and Titus. If Gamma was town, then the most I could say is that Ranger is unlikely to be aligned with Titus and Imaginality. But if they are a serial killer duo or something similar, then Ranger wouldn't be aligned with them anyway.

All that is to say that I don't have any reason to townread Ranger and I agree that the defense of kitten around was suspicious.

[Prince of Paterson]

bizarre choices for nightkills, but i guess it's helpful for us? saves us from mis-eliminating catscratch today.

the fact that they didn't go for the top posters yesterday worries me that someone there is scum.

How are they bizarre? Have you been reading the game? Did you really think Cat Scratch Fever was likely to be eliminated today?

[Prince of Paterson]

you think csf was universally townread?

Are all people who are not universally townread likely eliminations? Cat Scratch Fever was one of the first pushers of kitten around. Did you take that into account in your read of her?

[Prince of Paterson]

Though it doesn't matter now, I don't see how anything in that imaginality post was compelling. If it weren't for the mason claim I would be voting imaginality until he was eliminated, the same as kitten around. With the mason claim, I'm still tempted. Disregarding the claim, he's been the scummiest poster of the game to me by a good margin.

[Prince of Paterson]

As this is a bastard game, I would caution against making too many setup-based assumptions. It's possible the mafia team was oversized but had to sacrifice some number of members in phase ??? as a power balance. It seems unlikely to me that there were 3 town-directed mafia kills at once. Alignment changes or false flips are also a possibility.

Unless someone is planning to claim those kills.

[Prince of Paterson]

The strong defense from Furtive of KA while insisting on a McMenno wagon instead seems unlikely to be helpful to scum. I'm willing to consider the slot as town.

Phoenix, you're claiming that Furtive had the power to summon a player from out of game to join him in a hydra?

[Prince of Paterson]

fifth, while reviewing this game, the worst noted that it might make sense to offer an advisory that mass claims may end poorly.

I would like to remind those who may not have seen it, or those who have forgotten, of this note.

I don't know if that only applies to an early mass claim or if it includes ones that may typically happen late in the game.

[Prince of Paterson]

Doubtful that Phoenix, Gimli, or KittyTacky are scum. Titus resolves tonight. The pool here is fairly narrow, in my view.

[Prince of Paterson]

Reread, actually, and not as confident on Gimli. I forgot that I had some issues with the way he progressed on kitten around. He was also very quick to back off Enchant when I mentioned a post of his that I thought could be town-indicative.

[Prince of Paterson]

Spoiler:

oh like I have something in my role that interferers with investigative roles so don't target me with those please

Mcmenno is probably town from this post

think both mcmenno and elements are town for mcmenno's post and then elements' reaction alone. + elements ISO doesn't vibe too strong either way but I think she's been more towny than the other way around

@furtive: I didn't really see it as a miller claim + I do townread miller claims (even though my days of mafia are way behind me now for me to tell you what I generally townread). I think the phrasing is very specific and not particularly likely to be coming from scum, and I think elements' solve of the slot is sharp in a towny way.

Yet, Kitty didn't claim to send meat to Elements. Then me and Elements being swapped makes sense.

VOTE: McMenno

If no one claims to meat Elements, I think we have proof of the bus drive.

why are you voting mcmenno? who else are you scumreading?

or. hear me out, I know this is not too much fun: let's flip NM. it's a dead slot, and all wagons are garbage.

VOTE: mcmenno

Scummiest poster in the game

Hard to argue against a Not_Mafia wagon, but it's a redux of the McMenno wagon. Feels like random guessing

Have you read their posts? I don’t understand how you’re even comparing the two?

McMenno I mean.

I also don't understand the comparison as NM is just giving a bunch of nothing while mcmenno feels like the epitome of UTR scum.

And yes I was townreading him cause of the claim but after going back and forth in so many slots that aren't actually very scummy at all I think this is a fine compromise

IDK how to weigh in on mcmenno other than it needs death and if I had a dayvig I'd kill it

Ranger hard defending mcmenno makes absolutely zero sense to me unless he has information or is powerwolfing

powerwolfing makes sense in this game given how the loudest players are pushing for strange wagons that will probably flip town

I accept these wagons: mcmenno/NM/george bailey? and it feels like it's so damn hard to push for these low hanging fruits because they're being hard protected, which doesn't make sense if they're town.

game looks like all the people posting and trying are town, and if they're not town they're still universally townread and are powerwolfing the game as a result.

with so many towny players, the people not playing the game is where a lot of the scum is, so we should 100% go after UTRs.

town's inability to read and scumhunt got a townie top poster killed on d1. some of these same people are being loud about their other hero reads, and getting sheeped as a result.

not george bailey.

I'm killing mcmenno or NM and if mcmenno is a wolf I'll be highly suspicious of ranger in this game.

I'm not going there as a matter of policy, I'm going there as a matter of gamestate + I find all three of them scummy tbh. enchant does not feel like town at all, mcmenno showing up to go 'omg im not wagonz' is something that deserves a dayvig, and NM started getting a little survivalistic once we tried forming a wagon around him. gun to head they're all scum.

we really don't have to go for mcmenno, I don't think. if KA flips town you can put on my tab

elements is just voting the top wagon while V/LA to help move the game forward. she did unvote and went for mcmenno who you're scumreading.

I don't see how any of those wagons are going to happen today. maybe McMenno but under heavy protest from ranger, at least.

the only thing that just pinged me about lycanfire was their attempt at discrediting biancospino's claim. other than that IDK that I scumread it - pending a reread.

McMenno I can move there and flip it, sure. It's not playing mafia and there's nothing to townread it for, other than ranger squinting her eyes pretty hard to find a reason.

I'll recheck your TR on KA now and see if I agree with parts of it.

Extreme jumps in confidence like this make me nervous. There's not really posts that support the changes in reads. He townreads over the claim, calls the wagon garbage, then later suddenly calls them the scummiest poster in the game and starts solving around them being scum and Ranger defending them. This confidence seems to disappear later, though, and he doesn't push for them at all the next day.

I had similar issues with his progression on kitten around. I'm not willing to call Gimli locktown. That said, I think his claim and play today feels more like it comes from town.

[Prince of Paterson]

Prince, why are you town, aside from VCA?

A moderator gave me a role pm that says town on it.

[Prince of Paterson]

A PLAN: we flip NM, titus targets ranger, ranger targets quiet owl. if anyone is alive tomorrow we eliminate them. that might end the game.

Might be fine. I think Ranger is the most likely of the three. Not_Mafia probably does have to die, though. When looking back at day 2, it felt like Quiet Owl was a counterwagon to scum at times, but that's the main reason to townread them. It's possible that town was just running up multiple scum.

Titus, if you're guaranteed flipping tonight, can you confirm again now that your townflip locks imaginality as town? I don't want any ambiguity here.

[Prince of Paterson]

I disapprove of a Quiet Owl elimination.

Are you ignoring my question intentionally?

[Prince of Paterson]

Not including Neighbor in the precise and detailed full claim while listing every other modifier and explaining them in detail may indicate that Ranger's claim was fake. It's an odd omission, and Ranger seems like the type to value completeness.

[Prince of Paterson]

Dropping one single modifier while copying and relaying the accurate role, when the rest of it came with links and descriptions, is a lot more unlikely than forgetting one while composing a fake role. In the former case she is transcribing the role directly from the source, and I don't see why that would result in forgetting one part of it when she was going to efforts to ensure the claim was in full.

[Prince of Paterson]

Due to the lack of clarification from Titus, if she continues to not confirm this, I will assume that imaginality is not confirmed town by her townflip tonight. Please clearly and definitively correct this if wrong. Now is not the time to be ambiguous if you're town.

[Prince of Paterson]

Here's the plot hole I have. Given no one claimed to receive a gun, it's safe to infer scum shot every person who received a gun and all other shots, minus the vig, are the SK.

Guns? I thought you were using 'gun' to refer to night targeting i.e. nightkills, but the phrase 'receive a gun' implies otherwise.

-Summon

Right. She's mentioned people "receiving a gun" several times. Does anyone know what she's talking about?

[Prince of Paterson]

I suppose it's time for me to full claim.

I am
1) a neighbor with imaginality
2) I know imaginality to be town
3) I am a night 4 suicide bomber
4) imaginality is a night five rolecop

Explain why you did not mention you were compulsive in your "full claim"?

[Prince of Paterson]

Alright, I have an idea of what Titus may be talking about, but I want to hear her explanation first. Nobody else mentioned the subject of receiving guns, but she's talking about it like it's fact. I think there's a possibility that she knows more than she should. I'd prefer if nobody else share thoughts on the mechanical side of this subject until Titus does.

[Prince of Paterson]

My opinion is that Quiet Owl's assessment of the hammer on lycanfire, being that it was in defense of Ranger, seems more likely than Ranger's assessment of the hammer on lycanfire, being that it was in defense of Quiet Owl.

Both are likely biased in their assessments, but Ranger's has more of an agenda of pushing one narrative while sweeping another under the rug.

[Prince of Paterson]

Agreed, that most likely results in a win. I have at least 3 questions that I'm waiting on Titus to answer first, though.

[Prince of Paterson]

Not_Mafia, who do you think is scum?

[Prince of Paterson]

It's possible that she thought it wasn't important, but then again why underline each specific word in the role?

It was taken from the neighborhood and manually typed out there. I didn't include neighbor in the neighborhood because it was

in the neighborhood

.

In the neighborhood I wasn't aiming to get the closest possible paraphrase.

In the neighborhood I was aiming to convey the relevant information.

That's why I used the links. I didn't need to explain the wording of combined (because I linked it) or vig (because I linked it) or doctor (because I linked it) or neighbor (because I was in the neighborhood). I did need to explain Solo/Duo because as far as I know, xyzzy made those modifiers up for this game. (There's no wiki article for them as far as I could tell.)

Not including it when claiming in the neighborhood makes sense, thanks.

[Prince of Paterson]

Your point that Not_Mafia probably is not scum who tried to save you as a partner is also fair.

[Prince of Paterson]

Thank you for the answers.

I did not receive a gun, but something about my role (I won't elaborate right now) leads me to believe that it would make sense for the Inventor handing out specifically guns to be a possibility in this setup.

I'm not familiar with how the Inventor role is typically utilized. If it's very standard here for it to hand out guns, then it's possible Titus just recognized that and quickly came to the conclusion that was what happened and that was the cause of the kills. I mostly was surprised that she came to that conclusion without that much evidence, and the additional information I have makes me believe she's likely to be on the right track. It made me wonder if she had additional information that caused her to

know

that was what happened.

It might not matter since she allegedly will die tonight, but I thought it was curious.

[Prince of Paterson]

However, there were two deaths each normal night. If you believe there to be a SK, that accounts for all deaths outside of the ??? phase. It seems that

either

Enchant was handing out guns every night and shooting the people who received them, or there is a SK, not both. The ??? phase seems unlikely to have come from town.

[Prince of Paterson]

I find it annoying that Titus says that she shouldn't need to clarify her role because she says she has made it clear multiple times. When actually, twice now today, she has changed her claim from what it was previously despite saying earlier it was a fullclaim. I don't know why she expects that we should take her at her word.

It feels like she keeps changing the claim to whatever is currently convenient to her. Why would imaginality be a night 5 rolecop while

also

Lovers with Titus who is

also

a compulsive night 4 suicide bomber? He always dies before getting to use his rolecop? Why has this never come up until now? Why did she earlier this day phase insist that imaginality would be conftown on her flip if he's going to die anyway?

[Prince of Paterson]

Now both are insisting on a massclaim for vague reasons when the mod explicitly warned us that massclaiming would probably be end poorly for town.

[Prince of Paterson]

Pedit: Not_Mafia's response to my question is more reason to mass claim as it proves NM town (given the disloyal inventor) if we can rule out them having received the hammer via a bus drive or redirect.

Enchant is a disloyal inventor so couldn't

directly

vend to teammates.

It's possible if the remaining mafia (if any) have a bus driver or redirector that Enchant could vend to player A and then get the hammer into NM's hands. It's also possible that the town bus driver got it into NM's hands by chance (though that would imply scum gave it to someone they didn't target for the nightkill, or that the nightkill target was protected (but that doesn't fit with the two kills per night)).

Personally I think it reasonably plausible scum Enchant gave the hammer to town NM with intent of getting more town cred when claiming later. But mass claim here will certainly help narrow down the possibilities.

Giving this as a rationale for massclaiming is negligent or malicious. If Not_Mafia is scum, then there is no reason to believe that he is telling the truth that he received the hammer power and that it wasn't something he had all along. Saying that his own word proves him as town is, at best, an extreme lack of critical thinking.

[Prince of Paterson]

Do you have a reason you're appealing to the crowd in this manner? If you find it suspicious, why not make the case and push it? This seems unusual to me.

Not_Mafia was a replacement, so I believe that it makes more sense that it was something given to him midgame, and Enchant was allowed to flavor his inventions. It seems very fitting that he would give Not_Mafia that power, as they both have a joy for hammering.

[Prince of Paterson]

Like cut me a little slack here as I try to engage with this game, open invitations for engagement are a great tool for this why are you pressed about that?

Reasonable. It didn't come across like you were looking for more information, it sounded more like you wanted others to come to the conclusion you had. I may have read too much into it, though. It surprised me as an approach, is all.

[Prince of Paterson]

I find it annoying that Titus says that she shouldn't need to clarify her role because she says she has made it clear multiple times. When actually, twice now today, she has changed her claim from what it was previously despite saying earlier it was a fullclaim. I don't know why she expects that we should take her at her word.

It feels like she keeps changing the claim to whatever is currently convenient to her. Why would imaginality be a night 5 rolecop while

also

Lovers with Titus who is

also

a compulsive night 4 suicide bomber? He always dies before getting to use his rolecop? Why has this never come up until now? Why did she earlier this day phase insist that imaginality would be conftown on her flip if he's going to die anyway?

Disloyal doctor. I expected a protective role if I was cleared. I just didn't expect it to be scum. Yes it doesn't make sense from a design perspective but it punishes scum for protecting me.

Except imaginality just said that neither of you can be saved by a protective role. Get your stories straight.

[Prince of Paterson]

Am I the only one who has issues with Titus and her claim?

[Prince of Paterson]

Make me a promise that if they live through the night you don't allow them to change their story again and make excuses, and elim them like we should have on day 2.

[Prince of Paterson]

A concern I have is that we don't know when endgame is.

[Prince of Paterson]

I mean...

Titus is a claimed compulsive sui bomber. If she doesn't die, we kill her tomorrow on principle no?

By logic, yes. I don't trust people to act logically. I'm asking you and Gimli since I doubt all three of us die and you're the two I expect might listen.

I thought Titus and imaginality were the scummiest slots in the game since the time I started reading the thread when I replaced in at the start of day 2. There was a theory for a while that they were a serial killer lover duo which still seems likely to me.

[Prince of Paterson]

I agree with Titus that given we're both dying tonight

(I checked with the mod just in case one or both of us could somehow be saved by a doc tonight but nope)

, it's time to mass claim.

[Prince of Paterson]

Lovers were claimed. If we flip Titus today and she's telling the truth, imaginality dies as well.

[Prince of Paterson]

Lovers were claimed. If we flip Titus today and she's telling the truth, imaginality dies as well.

Ouais, je sais. I included it in the write up I just did.

Explanation makes sense then. I read it as "we would flip imaginality after", misunderstood.

[Prince of Paterson]

Can you explain how a massclaim would verify Not_Mafia? I also have not forgotten about KittyTacky. His early posting was town and I doubt his alignment has changed.

[Prince of Paterson]

Can you explain how a massclaim would verify Not_Mafia? I also have not forgotten about KittyTacky. His early posting was town and I doubt his alignment has changed.

I'm presuming everyone has verifiable actions that would either confirm themselves or catch him out.

We may be nearing Elo here. Everything should be known.

And this answers nothing. What specific information from a massclaim would tell you Not_Mafia's alignment? What would "catch him out"?

[Prince of Paterson]

I don't think it should be too much to ask for me to get a straight answer to questions without having to ask 4 times for every question.

[Prince of Paterson]

Don't worry, not you. It took many tries to get kitten around to answer a question, and they were scum. It's similarly impossible to get Titus to answer things. I don't think her motivation for asking for a massclaim makes any sense, and she won't elaborate when I try to point out why. I made a similar point towards imaginality and was similarly ignored.

Neither of them are thinking critically about things or trying to solve the game. It shouldn't be that hard to read the posts that are being made given there's only 9 of us left. I'm a patient person but at a certain point I have to believe that it's intentional.

[Prince of Paterson]

Ranger, your alternative suggestions of what you could have claimed (any 3rd party, plain vig) would be more likely to be perceived as an obvious SK fakeclaim than your current claim. It doesn't make sense to argue that you would have been better off claiming those instead.

[Prince of Paterson]

Even though I disagree with the massclaim, I don't think my role would be a part of any possible issues that a massclaim would cause.

I'm a town strongman. If I had any killing actions, they couldn't be stopped. I don't have any killing actions. I haven't taken any action all game.

[Prince of Paterson]

And I don't think it matters much whether a massclaim is good or bad, since most roles have been claimed. My main disagreement is with Titus and imaginality's reasoning behind wanting one, which again, is devoid of logic or rational thought, and more likely to be malicious intent. Ranger's reasoning for wanting one is fine.

[Prince of Paterson]

Even though I disagree with the massclaim, I don't think my role would be a part of any possible issues that a massclaim would cause.

I'm a town strongman. If I had any killing actions, they couldn't be stopped. I don't have any killing actions. I haven't taken any action all game.

So your role is completely useless?

-Summon

My role is currently useless, yes. If there was some way of receiving a killing action (such as through an inventor), it would modify that action.

[Prince of Paterson]

I'll also add, to be clear, that my resistance to a massclaim had nothing to do with my own claim or my own role and everything to do with other people claiming, due to the mod warning.

[Prince of Paterson]

A quiet owl lim seems like the correct path forward. I disagree with one of the premises stated that we cannot have 2 group scum remaining. I don't think we can make any predictions about balance without knowing the nature of the ??? phase.

But I don't think there's much we can do about that at this point.

[Prince of Paterson]

You okay with the plan, Prince?

My expectation is that either the game will end upon completion of the plan or Titus and imaginality will still be alive, saying someone must have doc'd them. I don't think they would be able to end the game tonight but it's difficult to know with how many unknown factors this game has. I am somewhat resistant to trying to solve bastard games via mechanics that we don't fully understand, but if the Hated claim is true, Owl has already been hammered so it doesn't matter.

[Prince of Paterson]

A Gimli death was apparently the scum kill. If there's still a serial killer out there, then they must have targeted Gimli or Ranger as well. If there isn't, then there are a lot of kills on other days that are unaccounted for.

I'd also like to know if anyone has any overnight actions to claim. I agree that we shouldn't vote.

[Prince of Paterson]

Wait, actually, I have an idea of what might be going on here. I'd like everyone to check in first. And again, please don't vote.

[Prince of Paterson]

speaking of claims, our role is N3 Hydra Recruiter which does exactly what it says on the tin. Basically if Furtive survived to N3 they could pull a player outside the game into the game (the player has to accept the recruitment or the ability fails) to join their slot as a part of a hydra, a proven ability as you can see by my existence lol.

Knowing if this was a fullclaim or not is important to me. Can you confirm that, please?

[Prince of Paterson]

Explicitly then, you have no knowledge or connection with what happened directly after Night 3, phase ???, is that correct? If there's anything else going on here and you're town, now is the time to be honest about it. I have some information that suggests something might not be right here, but you may be able to explain it.

[Prince of Paterson]

After Not_Mafia claims. Thanks for clarifying.

[Prince of Paterson]

Posting this for ease of reference:

Dead town roles:
Frogster - psychiatrist
Save the Dragons - encryptor neighbour
Morning Tweet - one-shot neapolitan neighbour
Cat Scratch Fever - even night tracker
biancospino - neighbour death innocent neighbour
GeorgeBailey - night 2 compulsive loyal weak vigilante
Elements - ???
Lycanfire - bus driver
HighPrincessErinys - even night doctor neigbour
UltimateGamer - backup innocent child

Dead scum roles:
kitten around - compulsive disloyal neighbour
McMenno - 1-shot cop immune godfather
Mathblade - fruit vendor neighbour
Enchant - multitasking gunsmith compulsive disloyal inventor

Claimed roles:
Titus - night 4 compulsive suicide bomber neighbour*
imaginality - night 5 rolecop neigbour*
Ranger - indecisive combined solo vigilante duet doctor [neighbour] (Ranger didn't state neigbour in the role title when claiming but obviously is in the neighbourhood)

Other:
Gimli - ?
KittyTacky - ?
Not_Mafia - ?
Quiet Owl - ?
Prince of Paterson - ?
Summon the Phoenix - ?

You missed my claim! town multitasking odd night fruit vendor even night vegetable vendor 1-shot meat vendor neighbor.

I sent meat to Titus and fruit to Quiet Owl N1, a vegetable to ranger N2, and a fruit to UltimateGamer N3.

[Prince of Paterson]

I'm a naive cop

No other restrictions? Who did you target last night?

I received something last night, I'm guessing that nobody alive is claiming to be responsible for that? It wasn't what I would expect to receive if KittyTacky had vended to me.

[Prince of Paterson]

I'm a naive cop

No other restrictions? Who did you target last night?

I received something last night, I'm guessing that nobody alive is claiming to be responsible for that? It wasn't what I would expect to receive if KittyTacky had vended to me.

I haven't targetted anyone at any point in the game

Didn't understand the role until I looked it up, I see, that makes sense.

[Prince of Paterson]

And if anything our role is proven by my existence. We aren't fake claiming.

While that aspect of your role is certainly true, it doesn't prove that is the only part of your role.

I'd like to hear if KittyTacky targeted me last night.

[Prince of Paterson]

How I got this is unclear, and the reliability of it is also unclear. Last night I received a message which had two parts, each one word. The first was "usurper", and the second was "furtiveglance".

It was presented to me as a message that was sent to me. There's a few possibilities I have in mind.

1) It was sent to me by scum who is alive, somehow. In this case it would be meant to mislead.

2) It was sent by someone who is dead. The two possibilities that I can think of are Quiet Owl (one of his redacted jack of all trades powers may have been some sort of communication while dead), or biancospino, whose role was unclear but apparently he had something that triggered on his death. In both of these cases it's unknown how reliable the message is. It may be a personal opinion, it may be a result of some kind, I don't know.

You know all I do now. I asked Phoenix about their role earlier because I was interested to see if they would alter their claim based on the pressure of unknown information.

Usurper (I had to look it up) is an anti-town third party role, where the win condition is to remain alive while killing the mafia godfather. It could likely have variation to it, but that's the basic concept. Furtiveglance did push hard for killing McMenno, which was the main reason I thought he was unaligned with the mafia team. If he is in fact an usurper, I believe the phase ??? was a result of something he did, which came along with summoning the hydra.

The odd thing is that Ranger, a mafia, was still alive, so it's not as if he just was able to kill the rest of the mafia team and usurp their position.

Basically, I don't know, I don't really have a conclusion. I don't have a lot of hope that sharing this information will actually get us much of anywhere since I'm not confident that there's anyone I can trust to be town that I can talk to about it, but here we are.

[Prince of Paterson]

You're right that we don't know of a role that could have sent it, but there are the two I pointed out that I think are possible. Quiet Owl is clearly possible. Biancospino might be a stretch, but we don't know what his role did, only that something happened after his death. It's a bastard game, I don't want to take anything for granted. Some role may have a hidden aspect to it.

I'm not taking it at face value by any means but I'm also not going to ignore the possibility that it's true. The ??? phase, and the fact that the announcement of your joining came slightly

after

the rest of the night 3 actions (only by a few minutes, but still), is still concerning to me. I also didn't townread furtive aside from his push on McMenno, which... if his goal is to kill the godfather, that push makes sense.

If you're town I hope you can see how it's something that I would want to consider carefully.

I'll admit another thought occurred to me which I debated whether I should say, because to be fully transparent, it feels like something scum in my position would say. But I'll say it anyway. The message did only say furtiveglance, not the slot as it's currently named. Would it be ridiculous to consider a mechanic in a bastard game where the person recruited to join the hydra is given a different role PM than the original holder of the slot?

[Prince of Paterson]

Despite laying all my cards and thoughts on the table, I don't really feel better. I prefer to observe, and I usually find that when I put myself in the middle of things, my ability to understand the game decreases. In this case it was unavoidable, but I don't feel good about the likelihood of coming to the right answer.

[Prince of Paterson]

Quiet Owl died DAY 4. With a FLIPPED ROLE.

Not possible.

Neither is Blanco.

Once again we remain confirmed town.

OK. If one of Quiet Owl's redacted jack of all trades abilities was "send a message to someone who is still alive after your death", then how is that impossible? They would presumably not get added to the dead thread, and would probably be able to predict that they had some power after death, and would figure out to use it. I think it's unlikely that the message would arrive in the format that it did in this case, but it's possible.

We have no idea what bianco's role was, except that he said something would happen after his death. We don't know how long after. Nothing seemed to happen immediately. Maybe he was the cause of phase ???. I don't know. I think that in any case, saying "this is IMPOSSIBLE" is by definition false because the game is bastard.

[Prince of Paterson]

As of so far you have provided no evidence this is remotely possible to have occurred.

Because it isn't.

My partner summon thinks this is too weird for you to be scum.

I don't.

I admit it saddens me but the truth is this. At this point we are confirmed town by your own words. By the very mass claim you just ran, we are confirmed town..

By continuing to push us you act anti townly, in a possible ELO situation.

I see no logical argument why any of this connects to the ??? Phase, but given your behaviour I think you might be the one informed on that phase.

Maybe you aren't. Maybe you can prove me wrong here and flip it and come in here and recognize we are confirmed town and work with us to decide who is evil remaining.

But if you come back in here with the HARD FACTS decided as they are ans continue to throw shade at us about some mystery power that gave you TWO messages (part of why this is suspicious) and can ONLY have come from scum.

I will at this point be forced to believe you are scum at that point.

Like the logic isn't even that hard to follow. No townie alive or dead could have done what you are claiming

So only scum could do this.

So wherher you are town being duped or the scum who made it up, there is only one person who is completely clear of suspicion for doing this, and it's US.

There is no reason for me as scum to come into this day phase, while being the only confident townread of yours, and do this. If I were scum I could have easily gotten an elimination on Not_Mafia or KittyTacky.

I'm also not pushing you. I doubt I would vote for you. I believe I have an obligation to share the message that I received.

The fact that there were two messages (received in the same PM, but clearly marked as separate) is part of what made me doubt that this is just a scum mailman or something messing with me. That would only arrive as one message. This seems to be a clearly defined power where the message comes in two parts. That makes it less easy for me to dismiss it as clearly faked by scum.

[Prince of Paterson]

And your argument is that a dead player could have sent it. Well, QO made 0 mention to this ability and probably would have claimed it while they were alive, don't you think? I think that QO as a townie would 100% have claimed it, so when a townie GOT THAT MESSAGE they would know who it was from.

So not QO.

And then Bianco, why didn't they use it in days before this? And if it's just them, why is it two split messages?

Let's say I trust you, because I do or at least I want to believe my read on you was correct. Let's say you're telling the truth, and let's then argue for the sake of argument it isn't NM or KT (even though KT has claimed multitasking and could have theoretically sent 2 different messages with 2 different abilities and still killed so that seems to explain it being 2 messages?)

The only other option would be something related to the ??? phase right? Like 3 scum died out of NOWHERE and no mechanic explains it. Maybe it's a game mechanic then, and in exchange for suddenly being dead on day 4 they get to each send a message to influence the game anonymously.

So they know I see you as town and if they send this to you they can try and make a fake story to tell us both down this river.

Owl fullclaimed. They had a jack of all trades power, but didn't know what powers they had. They just had to guess actions and hope they worked. They would not have known that they had this power until they died and weren't added to the dead thread.

Scum sending the message through some unknown mechanic is definitely a possibility and probably more likely.

[Prince of Paterson]

At this point Prince, I'm going to ask you to sort of make a call on this.

I know I'm town. Yesterday I generated the plan that put us here with a chance to win, I setup so that Ranger would die, my top scumread. I think Ranger was possibly saveable. I think I could have convinced Gimli and others to eliminate Titus yesterday and argue "We need more bodies alive for tomorrow" and like tried to win today with Ranger if I was scum.

My path to winning as scum is much easier if I play differently than I have. I think I agree with you that you never bother faking those messages coming in today because I had you as town you could have just won by using me to lead you there.

So in my mind... NM appears town with his logic and vote, you're town and I'm town so there's only really one option left.

A player with an unexplained double vote (the third scum gift? 2 messages to you and making KT a double voter?) and who is multitasking fruit vendor which is a suspect claim.

The Usurper phrasing specifically is what made me question things. I don't think you'd be standard mafia. If you're scum then it's third party and your slot needed to kill the mafia godfather and be the last one remaining.

As for the other two, I've read KittyTacky as town by play, but it's believable that he could be a serial killer, since that often allows one to play as uninformed. I think Not_Mafia does have some mafia team equity with his hammer to save Ranger, even if Ranger may have genuinely not wanted him to.

I lean towards KittyTacky as well. I think him falling off in presence as the game has progressed is not a good sign.

[Prince of Paterson]

Having two vendors on the mafia team does seem unlikely, and the way that the claims played out felt like Kitty was not teamed with MathBlade. So I agree with Summon's point that Kitty, if scum, is more likely to be serial killer. If there is 1 serial killer and 1 mafia remaining, town never wins here regardless of what we do, correct?

[Prince of Paterson]

A thought I had is that KittyTacky sent to Ranger on night 2. Ranger was scum. We don't have any town confirmation that KittyTacky does actually send what he says he does on even-numberered nights.

[Prince of Paterson]

The role, to my understanding, isn't used much and might not work exactly the same way that it does on the wiki. Given the phase ??? I think the role would be necessarily different. I agree it doesn't fully match up, though.

Why do you think Not_Mafia is more likely serial killer and KittyTacky is more likely groupscum? That doesn't make much sense to me.

[Prince of Paterson]

Well, scum could not have gifted scum that. Enchant was disloyal. But we don't know for sure that it was given to him by enchant.

[Prince of Paterson]

Well, scum could not have gifted scum that. Enchant was disloyal. But we don't know for sure that it was given to him by enchant.

Then is your preference to do NM today? My partner will be happy... I don't fully agree though.

Haven't decided yet. As I said before I lean towards thinking KittyTacky is more likely to be scum overall, but I do think that if he is, he's more likely to be serial killer. I was just explaining why I don't think it's guaranteed that Not_Mafia isn't groupscum.

[Prince of Paterson]

Even now we have a lot of kills unaccounted for. I think there almost has to be a serial killer still alive.

[Prince of Paterson]

Not sure why scum KittyTacky claims multitasking when he could just not ever vend meat. Actually, I suppose so that he could claim he vented meat to the kill target if he ever gets tracked or watched.

Why haven't you vended meat, KittyTacky?

[Prince of Paterson]

I hope so. I don't think KittyTacky has really tried to solve in a while now. There's a couple of things I wanted to reread still but maybe it doesn't matter.

[Prince of Paterson]

Don't want to vote yet. There's no deadline. I want to look at a few things from earlier in the game first.

[Prince of Paterson]

I needed a town player that I could talk to and unfortunately there wasn't one. I'm not sure why KittyTacky and Not_Mafia both thought I was town yet also disregarded the message entirely.

LLD was pretty clearly pushing agenda there, I just don't really have the strength to fight back against that on my own. Needed stronger town voices to survive to ELO.

[Prince of Paterson]

The hydra dissonance was played well and made me hesitate.

[Prince of Paterson]

The part that I wanted to reread was your interactions with Ranger specifically. My memory had Ranger not seeming that concerned about dying and also you not pushing as hard for her death as I'd expect given your read on her. I was busy and didn't have time yet to confirm that, unfortunately.

[Prince of Paterson]

What happened with KittyTacky? If he had claimed the message he received I believe town would have won. Was there a mod error, or did he not notice the message?