Wizards at the Sorcerers' Den - Endgame

[Feysal]

Hello all. I have completed my read of the thread, and I'm hereby joining the proceedings. I don't have much to say yet, though there are some gems hidden within the gravel, and I believe I spotted a few of them, I reserve judgement on most players who have posted so far.

One strong town read I got was CryMeARiver, for confusing which of sorcerers and wizards were town this game. Apparently in past games in this series, the wizards have been town and the sorcerers scum? In a recently ended game which also flipped around which faction was town, there was a number of people who said they had been confused by this. Every single one of them was town.

Why so serious?

Do you wanna know how I got these scars?

Have you ever danced with the Devil by the pale moonlight?

I actually was the Heath Ledger Joker in a mafia game once. I always liked the Jack Nicholson quote better though.

[Feysal]

Okay, this looks like another game that is conspiring to never let me catch up. Rather than stay up all night to read, I'll just stop on page 10 for tonight and continue on tomorrow.

I believe I've had my best idea ever in a mafia game today. I realized I'd be in severe trouble keeping track of what was happening, so I created a private QuickTopic to post my thoughts in for future reference. The downside is that taking notes slows down my reading, but I'll take being informed and slow over being quick and forgetful any day of the week. Most of my notes so far are various town reads, and some suspicions are starting to arise. inHim is pretty high on my suspect list at the moment, since I don't follow the reasoning behind his suspicions. Pine has also been quite aggressive against who I feel are the wrong people. Not going to vote either now though, they may have answered for some of my concerns in the pages I've yet to read, and if not, I'll be asking some questions.

I'm keeping an eye on LMP, which should surprise no one, at least if you read the little exchange between us during signups. I wouldn't be doing my job right if I wasn't. Based on my experience of his play, he is aggressive as town, and even more aggressive as scum.

I think Chesskid pointed out the flaw, the person will just be 'protected or healed' as scum.

And if someone is protected by the scum after the town has decided to kill them off, we have an excellent lynch choice for the following day.

I think we should set up a firing squad, and use it as a group vigilante. I've done this before, and the first time we put the idea to practice we actually managed to shoot scum. I'm sure LMP remembers this one, he hosted the game. On the other hand, I've been in a game where the town was ruined by everyone running around shooting at each other, allowing the scum to lurk their way to victory. I'd prefer we agreed as a group who to kill. Perhaps several targets like Amrun suggested, which would make it harder for scum to protect their own - though that could result in too many targets dying too quickly. The longer the game lasts, the more informed we can make our kill choices, so we don't want to kill three people on day one for something only vaguely scummy. That way I predict we're going to do more damage than good.

I've seen comments that suggest some people have missed that abilities can be used night and day. Only one ability per phase though. We should make the most of this.

Of course we don't need to out whoever has damaging abilities, we can decide on targets to kill without that. I considered a select group of people claiming that they were participating in the firing squad, and then treat any loose cannons as scum, but I don't see it working. Probably better to keep it secret if you participate in the firing squad.

Feysal: Please say something interesting.

I don't know what you would find interesting, so I will keep speaking of what interests me, and hope it satisfies.

[Feysal]

Woo-hoo, caught up with the thread. The game slowing down somewhat is good for my sanity.

@Feysal: Lemme summarize the content of your posts that is not setup speculation, fluff, or nonsense:

You bring a smile on my face. You embarrassed yourself in my eyes in Storm of Swords, and you're not impressing me with your play this time either. Let me show you what is wrong with your post.

Firstly, I have not speculated on the setup

at all

. I have spoken of the need to organize the town, so we can avoid the game lapsing into a shooting spree. No one who has experienced the town-on-town bloodbath of Mafia Holographica wants a repeat of that, and the fact that damaging attacks were public in that game did not deter the players. I do

not

want to see half the playerlist wounded by tomorrow morning due to town infighting.

Secondly, I disagree on my posts containing fluff. I'll grant you that it was not necessary to mention that I'm keeping notes in QuickTopic, but the real meaning of what I said is that I have more reads I have not elaborated on, and I will do so if and when I need to.

Thirdly... if you're going to assert that I post nonsense, I would prefer you to name specific instances and explain why you think they are nonsense.

- CMAR is town because of the ASOS "am I scum?" thing
- You're keeping an eye on LMP because meta

That's it. That's everything you've said.

Hardly. In particular you seem to have ignored the suspects I mentioned in my second post.

Seriously, I'm the one whose probably learning more in this hydra.

She controls our vote. She has more experience. Me? I'm here for the ride. And to make fun of scum chesskid, 'cause he's really obvious.

Say what? You deferring to Katsuki does not exactly inspire confidence in your slot's posts, because... well...

Hang on, I'll try to think of some way of saying this without insulting either of you. Umm... I'll get back to you if I come up with something.

That was fun. On to something more to the point:

Just had an extremely detailed chat with my other head about our reads and he now agrees that ISO #4 by ABR is actually an incredibly strong town-tell, we don't see him openely stating that he has 'multiple killing abilities' as mafia.

I agree completely, and I'm glad someone is making sense. Listening to so many people suspect ABR for rolefishing without thinking it through was really getting old. Then again, there could easily be scum among them, particularly if someone was so cautious they did not even vote. I'll need to keep an eye out when I reread.

At the moment ABR is the most solid town read I've got, for two reasons. One was post #67, where ABR said that his role suggests everyone has a damaging ability. That of course includes himself. There's no way I'd believe that scum would admit having killing abilities less than three hours into the first day, unless they really knew that town would have such abilities, and I can't see how they could possibly be that sure. The second reason was post #98, the same one Soben mentioned, but what I found interesting was his confusion about whether he was town, the same as with CMAR. I don't think scum could be confused about their faction, since their role would contain the names of their partners. The four people who said they were confused in Storm of Swords all being town only adds to my confidence in this read.

There were two others I noticed who said they'd been confused, Soben in post #169 and Katy in #196. These two came after I'd said how CMAR's mistake made him town in my eyes though, so they could in theory be scum fabrications. That makes them weaker town tells to me, but I still think it more likely that the both of them are town.

Scum chesskid has a confirmable town role so go ahead and mock him

I think this is the sixth hint or soft claim I've seen from you. You can stop now, you've been heard and understood, probably by town and scum both.

Anyone who has played with GI before knows that he is naturally a jester by default.

Truth. I thought it was an obvious joke, I don't get why Amrun took it seriously. Not that it matters, this looks like a red herring if I ever saw one.

Onward to my suspects. I haven't seen a satisfactory explanation from inHim for his suspicions, in fact I've seen no new posts from him at all. However, when I read him in isolation I realized my chronology was off. Now I wonder if the way he changed his read of chesskid was because he noticed the same thing I did. Nevertheless, I'm somewhat disturbed by the curt posting style and absence of arguments in his posts, I'll need to check some scum games of his. For now,

Vote: inHimshallibe

As for Pine, maybe the best thing in his defense is his early soft claim of being underpowered, before he was under suspicion. That kind of thing limits the available false claims for scum, and the fact that he repeated that soft claim later confirms it. He could be the type of player to claim vanilla as scum, hoping that the WIFOM involved would save him, but I doubt it.

Back to the drawing board, more later. Sorry about the wall, this tends to happen when you only read the thread once a day, several pages worth at a time.

[Feysal]

It's nice to play with you again, Feysal. I heard you improved greatly after Liten (SAIII, which I flaked out of after Fate/Benmage mess).

It is strange how different those two scum games of mine were, considering they both started about the same time. In Liten I bombed out day two, and in SAIII I lasted almost to the end, and we were seriously contending for the victory.

I'd forgotten you were in Liten too, your play there was decent from what I recall. I remembered you better from Consulmaker II, where I spent some effort defending your slot, and from SAIII where I stood by and let your hydra die.

I'm also glad you're town this time round.

So am I. I tend to play better when I'm enjoying what I'm doing.

Oh, and while I remember,

Unvote: inHimshallibe
Vote: IceyCupcake
Unvote: IceyCupcake
Vote: inHimshallibe

I've listened to the comments others have made and thought it over, and see no harm coming from this. I am not sure whether I should think of you as town or third party, but I believe the risks of the latter have been vastly exaggerated. I do not believe any role could possess an ability that would take something so basic as a vote and turn it into a weapon against the town. If it is part of some weird win condition, so be it, I don't mind sharing the victory. I would lynch a claimed jester too if it came to it, to be free of the headache.

Of course it could be a town ability like you claim. I have a hunch what it might be, but such speculation is better kept to myself.

I'm not even close to L-1. When what I'm prepared to do is complete, I'll be pushing for my own lynch. At that point, the pro-Town thing would be to help it along, even if you think I'm Town.

No. Just no. Inviting town players to participate in your lynch, even if they believe you, will not help in finding scum, instead it will hamper any efforts to analyze your wagon. I hope and believe there are enough town players who believe you so you don't need to die.

At this point, Soben, nothing I say will be taken seriously by half the players in this game until I flip Town. THAT is why I have to do it. Someone has to be the D1 lynch, and I'd rather is be a near-Vanilla player whose flip will make them more effective than their survival.

What you fail to consider is that several players will disagree with you even if you are revealed as town. Every town player is confirmed to himself, and what reason would anyone have to follow your reads over their own? Your willingness to die for your beliefs is a strong town tell for me, but it does not mean you would be right. I believe you're town, and I believe you're wrong. Your death would not change either of those things.

Town does not give up. I'm not even sure if you are voting for one of your scum read Pine.

On the first part, I disagree. I have seen town post their reads and thoughts and commit suicide via modkill. I've also seen town

not

post any reads or thoughts at all and commit suicide via modkill, more than once. What I've never seen is scum even threaten to do it.

On the second part, if you believe Pine is scum, what scum reads could he have?

Oh, and selfvoting, or the threat of it, is never a town thing to do. Never.

I've heard this many times before, but I've yet to see it used against actual scum. Self-voting may be bad town play, but it is absolutely horrible scum play. Once you see a scum tell fail over and over again, it stops being one.

[Feysal]

Cough

SAIII

Cough

Though the mods not checking the thread for two days ruined it there.

Right, but that was a self-hammer, with the intent of denying the town time to plan for the night phase. You were going to be lynched regardless of whether you voted yourself there. What I've never seen is scum giving up and start pushing for their own lynch when there is a chance for them to live.

[Feysal]

Sorry about being so quiet this week, I sort of took a timeout from this game to catch up in another game I replaced in, and now it is looking like I'll need to catch up with this one after I'm done. Noticed the thread title had changed, looked into moderator posts for an explanation, and saw that Pine was dead and flipped town. Not really surprised there. I hope the fifteen pages since Monday aren't all about that, I'm not looking forward to delving into that pile if that is the case.

Anyway, I'm currently too far behind to make a meaningful post. I'll be back when I'm up to date on my reading and know what is happening, hopefully soon.

[Feysal]

Feysal's avoiding the game? He's fuckin' scum then, he HATES being scum and gets no enjoyment from it. /haven't read the thread but a quick glance shows me he's been around.

I indeed don't get enjoyment out of being scum, however my absence has been for different reasons. I spent last week in catchup hell in a game I replaced into, considerably longer than I thought it would take, and found myself unable to keep up here. Something similar happened with the recently ended Cold War Mafia, and you can check for yourself how well my lynch in that game turned out. It happened there, it happened again here, I'm not proud of it but that's what it is.

I suppose I should've replaced out when I started getting into trouble, but knowing that my other games were small and likely to be slow, I expected I'd be able to pick up my game here when I was done. That, and a replacement player would have even more to read up on than me.

Anyway, I've received my prod, I'm reading what I've missed, and I don't foresee any complications that could cause me to flake out like that again.

No need to spam the thread any more with how long I was inactive, the prod was sent a while ago.

[Feysal]

What, that was the lynch? And I was hoping I could catch up and voice my opinion before it came to that. I certainly did not expect three people to jump on the wagon, not even leaving time for a claim. Or a limited claim, as we seem not to be allowed to claim for some reason I fail to understand.

At least we now have a chance to wait for a flip before sending actions, which is quite the boon. I was afraid we'd have to perform our day phase actions blindly. Thank goodness for small favors.

[Feysal]

anyone with less posts than gaggle need to step it up, fucking at least one scum in this bunch of terrible lurkers.

Catching up to your post count would be easier without the triple posting. You are correct about activity having to improve though.

I've had the twilight and night to catch up in this game, and I've made use of them. Some of my reads were too late, like Amrun, who I would've defended had I been here at the time. I thought she gave a strong town tell in #468, claiming a non-evil alignment right after it was speculated the scum would be of good alignment this game. That was not something I'd have expected from scum, and predictably she flipped town.

Other reads may prove useful yet. For one, after an ISO read and meta check on inHimshallibe, I felt I was probably wrong about him. I was suspicious of his posting style, but looking at his past games revealed it was typical of him, and as scum he was more assertive and posted more reasons than has been the case here. I'm now leaning town on him.

Something that caught my eye as I was reading was how abruptly Zdenek changed his read when Pine claimed. Even as Pine was pushing his own lynch Zdenek believed he was scum, and suddenly changed when Pine claimed. Why is that?

How many people damaged Baby Spice?

I fail to see the point of this question, particularly since Baby Spice appears to be in full health. What does it matter, and how would you expect to get an answer without the people involved outing themselves?

I'd like the change vote check to be on us. We're around 3-6 votes away from something nifty, depending on which ones count (so far we've learned that not all players count when they vote for us, and I think they're only counted once... it might have something to do with good/evil thing, or perhaps town/scum... I think we're not supposed to be able to use this like a cop, but the end result is quite irritating).

Do you know if the votes from the same people who voted you yesterday will count?

About votes possibly being non-retractable today, how are we going to test that? Any volunteers?

[Feysal]

Vote: Bunnylover

Unvote

VOLUNTEERING

Um... This was not exactly what I hoped for when I asked for volunteers. I hoped for scum to jump on the chance to make their vote useless and not having to justify moving it for the rest of the day. Not going to accuse claimed mason Gaggle-Chesskid of any such thing of course. At least we now know unvoting really does not work. Analyzing today's "vote records" is going to be a nightmare.

I think we're the few people that have nothing related to the Undead in their abilities, because a lot of people suddenly believed Pine with his claim, if I recall correctly.

I get what you mean, but in regards to Zdenek, I considered that possibility and found it unlikely due to other things he has said. In fact, as of last night, Zdenek has become my primary suspect among those not seriously injured. Anyway, I'd like to hear his reason from him, as soon as he gets back from his V/LA.

FOS: Zdenek

Also this is all ICE.

You know, I'd be very surprised if there was someone in this game who couldn't tell.

By allowing those who are damage to live, assuming they are anti-town, we allow them to use their ability at night or day.

Well, lynching someone might prevent them from using their normal actions - I note that Pine's attack on IceyCupcake apparently never resolved. Other than that, there is little difference, since a seriously injured player like Beefster and PeregrineV today can probably be finished off with a single shot. I'm sure the town can muster enough firepower to make that happen, should we decide that they both need to be killed. At the moment I'm pretty much in agreement that PeregrineV needs to pick up his play fast if he is to avoid death. Beefster I'm far less sure about.

[Feysal]

Is this a prolonged graveyard shift or something? Barely any posts today.

I can understand what Beefster is planning with PeregrineV, but I doubt its usefulness. First, PeregrineV could be town but not undead, and this test would probably result in his death. Second, concerning his idea of involving a watcher, would it really be worth it to out such a powerful role just to confirm one lurking wight? If indeed he is one.

I think it would be far more useful to have PeregrineV involve himself with the game and answer for his play. To that end, here is my case on him for him to respond to.

Basically his lurking is simply scummy. I've seen him before as town, and I remember him as active, nothing like his play here. I've checked out his scum games, and he had a definite tendency to lurk in them. In Battlestar Galactica Mafia he explicitly admitted allowing the town to implode, and I believe that is exactly what the scum are doing here. The list of town dead is ample evidence of the amount of town infighting going on, and I'd bet the mafia want to stay out of it and let the town do their job for them.

Of course he could simply be busy in real life, but even a quick glance at his sitewide activity disproves this. He has been playing in other games concurrently with this one, and started/replaced into others while this game has been active. He seems to have been more active in some of those games too compared to here. I can't recall him saying anything constructive either in his few posts, last time he was blatantly sheeping. What gives?

Also, this:

Clearing up some technical matters regarding my current state of health.

Then will be back with important message.

I'm waiting to see what that important message might be. I don't think anything in his last post qualifies.

[Feysal]

Pine's play was starting to look like frustrated town, so I was having a hard time deciding on him; although, before his claim, I still thought he was scum. The way that he claimed, and in particular the fact that he claimed to have an "interesting, but extremely conditional ability" made me think that he's town. While I can see the usefulness of scum claiming to have an extremely conditional ability, my feeling was that that detail is something that scum wouldn't have bothered including at that time being at L-7 (I think).

I double checked what you said in your post where you voted Pine prior to his claim, and it does seem to match what you're saying here, so fair enough. The way I originally read it I thought you had to be a wight yourself with matching abilities to believe Pine so suddenly, or scum. Later when you criticized SnakePlissken for ignoring the claim, it appeared to contradict you being a wight. If you were and that was your reason to trust Pine, surely you would realize that other town roles might not share that trust, possibly not even consider the claim that important.

I thought I had another point against you which would've been far more compelling, but as soon as I started quoting posts I realized I'd made a serious error. Somehow I thought your post #624 was made after Amrun's #646. I blame the fact that in my time zone, your post was made at 12:21 AM and Amrun's at 11:30 AM, and since I never verified the post numbers until now and only looked at their timestamps, I got their order confused. That made the rest of your interaction with Amrun look extremely scummy. Now, you're back to null, and I've got to figure out if this forum has a 24-hour setting somewhere.

Un-FOS: Zdenek

With my other main suspect seriously injured, I need to look into some other people. Dry-fit has said and done too little for me to have a read on, and I had Katy pegged as town early on. Time to revisit that read and see if it still holds.

Implosion/CMAR SCREAM Serial Killer to me, as I can't see either of them being scum shots. ABR was obv-scum shot, no one thought he was scum, Soben was the same.

I disagree about Implosion and CMAR. There was a wagon on Implosion, and there were people calling him scummy at the end of the day. CMAR had him on his list of acceptable targets for town to hit, for instance. As for CMAR, I had a solid town read on him, and he had soft claimed his power role to boot. I think CMAR would be an obvious target for scum.

I agree that ABR was obvtown, Soben somewhat less so.

[Feysal]

Also, LMP, please for the love of god don't replace out. I'm seriously down to you, AGOG, Feysal, and Inhim as people I actively want to work with.

I WILL NO LONGER ENDORSE A LYNCH ON FEYSAL OR INHIM BECAUSE I THINK THEY'RE SOMETHING RESEMBLING HUMAN BEINGS I CAN WORK WITH.

I'm fine with cooperating with you, particularly as I currently have town reads on everyone you mentioned. Gaggle of Geese should be obvious town for the mason claim, but since some players have voiced doubts, the reason is that no scum would draw such a strong connection between them in what is likely a multi-scum game, when one of them could die at any time and condemn the other. I suspected inHimshallibe on day one, but after an ISO read and meta check during the twilight, I felt I was probably wrong and revised that read. LMP was the last one I was uncertain about, but the fact that he replaced out gives me a town read on the slot. If he was scum, with everything going his way so far, I don't see him being so frustrated he would leave the game.

Katy seems to be accepted as town now due to her claim of reviving RBT, and for good measure I read through her ISO. I don't really get what the suspicion was about in the first place, while she did not look blazingly obvtown I don't see what was supposed to be scummy either. But that no longer matters, if she brought back RBT and no one counterclaimed her, that is good enough. Even without that, I felt dissuaded from lynching her by her claim of having checked the masons. As strange as that claim may have been, I've seen worse from town, and investigative claims have a way of sorting themselves out. I doubt scum would want to make such a false claim in this setup, out of fear of being killed by rival scum.

I've seen quite a few people suspecting WrathChild, however I got a strong town read on him from his posts about SGRaaize's plan. In light of what he said later, I can understand why he'd act that way as town, even if I don't think it was useful. What I can't see is a scum motivation. Now, I'm glad to see him doing some scumhunting.

SnakePlissken's test and locking his vote on Katy is exactly the sort of thing I hoped to bait the scum into doing when I asked for volunteers. Some other parts of the case on him are pointless though, like overannouncing V/LA. If you look at his sitewide activity, he gave V/LA notices in all his games with back-to-back posts. The problem is I could see him as this useless and lurky as town - have a look at his play in Open 307 for a recent example of this. The degree to which he is disconnected with this game is a bit much though. He somehow missed the mason claim earlier, and now we're supposed to believe he missed the unvote test, after he himself brought up the subject. He is clearly not following his own suggestion to read the thread, and that makes the suggestion dishonest and scummy.

By the way, I very much disagree with SnakePlissken describing me as lurkier than him and posting less content. At the time he made his accidental vote on me, I had as many posts as he did, and mine were rather longer. Dry-fit had fewer, but his were also considerably longer. Looks to me that Snake's reason for voting us was simply false.

FOS: SnakePlissken

By the way, there was a detail that caught my interest in WrathChild's last post. He said he punched SnakePlissken yesterday. Can you confirm whether this was meant literally, as in you used a physical attack on him, and if this was during the day phase? Simple yes or no answers will do.

[Feysal]

So, there is some life yet in this game. The weekend was so dead I feared the worst.

I see there has been quite a bit of discussion about action claims and game mechanics. My take is that Gaggle probably told the truth about attempting to roleblock Bunnylover, who in turn probably told the truth about the mass redirect. The timing of the mod correction to the rules and the implication that we were drawing the wrong conclusion because of the error is too strong to ignore.

Now with WrathChild and SnakePlissken both claiming to have received late notices of having been roleblocked, I really don't know what to think. One looked like it might've been a poor excuse, but two?

This of course does not confirm the alignments of anyone involved, though it gives strong reason to believe the action claims. In particular, there is something decidedly odd about Bunnylover.

It was on everyone, although I tried to target CMAR only.

I was hoping to use a one-hit killing power .

Woosh random.

So, let me get this straight: you targeted CMAR, and you hoped to kill him. Seriously, why him? I thought he was among the more obvious town players we had.

Also, you've repeatedly said the mass redirect won't happen again. This implies you have control over it... and yet, you said that the spell was random. How can you guarantee it won't happen again if it is random?

[Feysal]

@Feysal: I believed CMAR was scum. Even if everyone thinks someone is town, doesn't mean they are town. You should know this from King of the Swords or Clash of the Swords (whatever) where Hasdgfas was "called town by almost everyone" and won the game for his scum team.

I remember that quite well. However, after hasdgfas shot one of his allies on day one, no town player in their right mind would've wanted him dead that day. You can of course suspect whoever you like, but I'm surprised that out of all the available choices, your first suspect would be CMAR.

Alright, Bunnylover
You're an inventor, is that what this is?

If I had to guess, I'd say wild mage.

Oh look, we have another town death due to claiming. That makes seven total, excluding the one who got revived, nearly a third of the game. We cannot claim, because we would die. We cannot reveal our abilities out of fear of having them stolen, which also prevents us from sharing what we've done with them. We cannot know ourselves what our actions have accomplished because of the mass redirection. We cannot use votes to wagon and pressure our suspects, since we can't unvote if we're wrong.

This game should've had a bastard mod warning in big, red letters.

lol, either the field effects stack, or the whole claiming thing is overall.

They'd better not stack. If we still can't unvote tomorrow, I think I'm going to blow a fuse and ragequit.

Now, to do something more useful, I had a closer look at SnakePlissken, Dry-fit and Gandalf, and looked at some of their past games. I might as well have not bothered, trying to pin them on meta was a frustrating and fruitless waste of effort. SnakePlissken has typically been more active both as town and as scum, but that seems to be dependent on his enjoyment of the game and how much time he has to spend on it. Besides, his activity level seems to be improving somewhat. Dry-fit has said and done far too little to say anything definite about him, though I did notice that he has not posted anywhere on the site since his last post in this game. That makes two replacements we need. And Gandalf... I felt he was a bit more aggressive in his scum games that I checked, but that is not much to go on.

I'm not up to date on the accurate count, but I think Snake has the highest number of FOS-votes on him. He seems pretty unconcerned about that too, or is he just unaware?

His claim is definitely weird though. He would have us believe that he can only take damage from healing, and he recovers health from unholy energy. That would point to undead and therefore town... but this makes no sense whatsoever from a mechanics viewpoint. If the scum have healing spells like he claims to believe, why would they ever use them on anyone other than themselves? And if sorcerors or third parties had healing spells, why would they use them on him if he cannot be damaged by other means in the first place, and thus cannot have damage to heal? The logic does not add up.

My FOS-vote shall remain on SnakePlissken.

[Feysal]

I realise this is pure WIFOM, but it is what it is. I can roleclaim for you all if it makes things easier? I am a Wight, sentient undead.

Seriously... on the same page as the last person who got killed over claiming?

Okay, I've had it.

I'm Prince Rumpelstilzkin, Lord Protector of Ooga Booga Land, and my win condition is to beat Michael Larson in a game of Press Your Luck.

What has Gandalf contributed to this game?

FOS: gandalf5166

That should make my feelings on the matter self-explanatory.

What has Dry-fit contributed?

Nothing worth noting. But he has flaked out of the game, and a competent replacement might yet save his slot. The very fact that we've heard nothing of consequence means he could just as well be town. At this point, I'd rather place my bets on Gandalf.

[Feysal]

Now that I notice it, in the last two vote counts there are no votes any more. Is this a mistake, or did something happen?

[Feysal]

Don't mean to be rude, but can you answer this Feysal D:?
And the people who voted previously died I believe.

To answer the question, I know nothing that wouldn't have been said publicly in thread. I remember people saying that claiming abilities was a bad idea on day one. And I'm mad at this insane game penalizing the town and preventing what should be Normal Town Play 101.

And that is not it. SnakePlissken voted and died, but his vote is already missing from the last vote count before his death. Gaggle voted you and is still alive, and his vote is also missing.

Maybe the votes were reset when a player died? Not that it would help much, we can't have someone commit suicide every time we want to unvote.

[Feysal]

Of all the current wagons I like Zdenek the best. Speaking of which, when was the last time he posted?

I have to say that I agree. My big case on Zdenek may have amounted to nothing, but there is still his extremely cautious posting style, as if he was avoiding taking stances.

UnFOS: gandalf5166
FOS: Zdenek

There is an activity overview link at the bottom of the page, telling how long it has been since a player's last post. It looks quite dreadful... half of the living players are due prods.

[Feysal]

Time for an unofficial vote tally.

Dry-fit (1) - SGRaaize
Surye (4) - PeregrineV, gandalf5166, Katy, WrathChild
gandalf5166 (1) - inHimshallibe
Bunnylover (1) - Zdenek

So, little over six hours until deadline, with unvoting apparently still impossible, the few of us still active have managed to spread our votes over four people. And we need nine to achieve a lynch, nicely done. Under the circumstances, voting Surye is the only thing I can do. He did incur the Amished tell too by criticizing LMP, time to see how that tell holds up in this game.

Vote: Surye

That makes five. Four more needed. Anyone still reading this game and not voting Surye is effectively voting no lynch. I don't hold that against SGRaaize since he voted before there was any wagon, but inHim and Zdenek really wasted their votes. In my eyes, Zdenek continues to look bad.

Has he done anything scummy? No. He's fencesitting, but that's just how he plays from what I've seen of him. As Feysal said, that's just his posting style.

I did say it was his posting style, meaning this game only. I've not seen him enough in other games to know if it is typical of him.

[Feysal]

You're not voting. The votes were reset, apparently because someone died.

[Feysal]

Still alive and healthy I see.

Also, its worth noting every person has the same life status (Bruised, Healthy, etc) as they had before this night, I'm guessing there was another massive roleblock except for the Mafia kill? Would explain why Katy got targeted

Remember that we're seeing the results of two phases worth of actions, so if a massive roleblock was the reason, it should've been used both during twilight and the night. Such a massively overpowered ability seems extremely unlikely. There is the possibility of a field effect negating actions though, but it would only explain why actions during one phase failed.

Also, the status of one player did change: PeregrineV. He seems to have healed himself like he said he would.

Finally, note that the flavor of Katy's death is the same as with CMAR, torn in two. That does not sound like wizards to me, more like a serial killer.

[Feysal]

DAYVIG FEYSAL

This had better be a gambit. Having this role has been the only reason I've bothered with the train wreck that is this game, and if you remove me from it without even giving me a chance to respond to whatever SpyreX has against me, then to hell with you.

Oh, and I'd like to have confirmation of whether I'm still alive as soon as possible.

[Feysal]

This brings up a couple interesting issues:
#1: Icey was voteblocked
#2: Bunnylover didn't want to lynch Surye

I don't think either of these give a clear read to alignments as of now, but they are note-worthy.

As far as IceyCupcake is concerned, I think you've jumped into a totally wrong conclusion. I see zero evidence that he'd have been vote blocked. Instead I see that he voted 14 minutes after the vote deadline, which is presumably why his vote did not count.

This means that there is a possibility that IceyCupcake purposely voted late to keep up appearances, and he did not want Surye to die. That would seem too crude to be a gambit though. I find it much more likely that he simply missed the deadline. I don't currently suspect Bunnylover either.

Who do I suspect? Most of all Zdenek. Rather than looking at who did not vote, you should look at those who effectively voted for no lynch by voting people who had no chance of being lynched. Zdenek looks worst in this group. inHim did the same by voting Gandalf, but I have a town read on him based on the rest of his play.

Vote: IceyCupcake
Unvote: IceyCupcake
Vote: Zdenek

So we had another torn apart kill, which I suspect is the SK (See above). This is hugely significant because we are lacking the second kill. Guess what? I protected someone last night. Guess what else? That person's life was specifically threatened yesterday.

Would you mind sharing who exactly this someone is? I believe there have been a number of threats in this game.

Preview edit: I see SGRaaize pointed out the missed deadline thing already, but no matter. I think the same.

[Feysal]

The fact your not protecting SpyreX ANYWAY just makes you a contender for worst role usage if you're town.

I see. Let's have a look at your own record, shall we?

So far today you have...
- voted Gandalf, who according to IceyCupcake is confirmed town
- talked about killing SGRaaize, on whom I have a fair town read
- killed or pretended to kill me, no reason given, and no chance given to speak for myself
- killed or pretended to kill WrathChild, claimed town doctor, just because you disagree with him, despite SpyreX saying he was probably town
- voted SGRaaize, who I still have a town read on, while still giving no reason

What is this godawful nonsense? And to think that it is apparently coming out of Faraday, with support from SpyreX? You're making Chesskid look smart. I don't think a single one of your suspects is actually scum, and you'd have to give a very solid explanation for why Surye is town before I believe it. Continue down this path, and you may just become a contender for worst role usage for your mason performance. Sit down, shut up, and stop making a fool out of yourself.

If you're town here you should apologise to SpyreX post game for not protecting him.

We shall see who should apologize to who. WrathChild has made some mistakes, but I believe that his thinking behind those mistakes is what makes him town. This daykill rampage had better be a gambit, because if it is not, you may have just crippled the town beyond recovery, you wretched excuse of an overeager vigilante.

Now, so that we might actually make some progress... any reason anyone can tell me why Baby Spice remains unharmed? Serious question by the way, I do want answers.

Oh... more posts in preview.

And clearly those daykills are fake, but Feysal's reaction didn't look like he was annoyed at all. W/e.

Hey Feysal!

I haven't forgotten about the dagger you picked up, and it seemed to me your first kill, of me, might have been the real thing. As for annoyance, I'm not editing a word of the above. You made me want to kill you myself to be rid of your stupidity, mason or not.

[Feysal]

okay tell me who is scum feysal. i want to know.

My best bets for scum are Zdenek, Surye and Baby Spice. Possibly Vaya, I don't have a fix on that slot. Zdenek for his noncommittal posting, suspects I disagree with, and for squandering his vote yesterday. I saw his reply, and it is plausible, but it also seems like it could be a convenient excuse. Surye partly because of LMP, on whose play I did not get any town tells from, save his frustration and replacing out. Everything else I could easily see him doing and saying as scum. LMP also listed me as his number one town read for a reason I find pretty weak, and I wondered if he was really worried about me targeting him with something. Then there is Surye and the Amished tell, which really sticks out like a sore thumb.

As for Baby Spice, the more I thought about it, the odder it seemed that she never confirmed either way whether she was undead when Beefster said he attacked her. It seemed as though she was simply taking advantage of an unexpected clear, which later proved false. Oh, and I'd still like to know how she managed to stay healthy this far.

The rest of my reads are town reads of varying strength. I'll get into them if I need to, and I need to update my notes anyway.

also i'm a very bad player, no idea why I wouldn't make chesskid look smart.

I think I've seen you before in a hydra, and I was left with the impression that you were a smart player, so your actions over the past couple pages surprised me in a bad way. It's fine though, you were seeking reactions, you got them.

Kills were so obviously fake I dont even.

Yessir masons with a dayvig BALANCE HOOO.

I did not think that you having two daykills was very likely, but one was within the realm of possibility, perhaps from using that dagger Chesskid picked up.

Anyway, I think it is highly unlikely that the mason claim would be false. I'd find a two-man serial killer team more probable than them being mafia. However, I don't find SpyreX taking damage to be a reliable argument for this. The first time his slot took damage it was after the night with the mass redirects, meaning the damage could have come from anywhere. This time we have only SpyreX's word that he took any damage at all. Is there someone else who took damage, but not enough to affect their status? I haven't, I'm completely unharmed.

[Feysal]

I know, I was there. I was pretty angry about how Amrun got mislynched over that tell. At the time I thought that a new player who was yet unfamiliar with common tells could easily make such a mistake, and considering she replaced as the primary wagonee I think she was right to accuse her predecessor of bad play. These warning signs don't apply to Surye - he has been around long enough, and there were no votes on him when he replaced in.

[Feysal]

You are referring to this, I guess?

No, in fact it was this, from Surye's last post:

...and my player slot was played so poorly before I got it...

Now, there were some people who found LMP suspicious, but I find accusing him or playing poorly to be totally uncalled for. I have no idea what Surye is talking about here, but clearly he thinks there is something bad about his slot's play, which is exactly what the Amished tell is about.

I have seen the Amished tell fail before, but this time I'm not seeing any of the warning signs from that occasion. This is pretty much the strongest scum tell I've picked up so far. In fact...

Unvote: Zdenek
Vote: Surye

[Feysal]

Okay, what in blazes is going on here? I'm happy to see more activity in this game, but if it is all about people being mad at SGRaaize for fooling around and him assuring his innocence, we're not getting anywhere.

None of this is related to why anyone thinks you're scum.

So why does anyone think that SGRaaize is scum then? The only reason I can see is process of elimination, since there are many more players who are closer to being confirmed than he. Apart from that, I got nothing. On the other hand, his play has been so off the wall that I think it very unlikely scum would dare play like that. This was not his first joke during the game, and I don't get why this one was so blown out of proportion.

True enough, I don't see why town would do that. But I also can't imagine why in hell scum would do that.

@SgR- Ummmm

1) Very non-commited to his reads

2) Complete lurker

3) Too much Mechanics talk

2 and 3? Not buying it. Complete lurking and too much talking.

You don't buy it. Uh huh.

@Feysal- I do better later in game, esp. big ones (like Cold War). I also do better on the weekdays while I mix business with mafia at work.
The important message was whoever hit me sucks. It's important they understand how slimy they are.

Remember when you posted this? That was a month ago. What have you accomplished during that time? Thirteen posts. Thirteen posts, the subject matter of which is predominantly game mechanics. Thirteen posts almost completely devoid of scumhunting.

I have just compared your activity in this game to other concurrent games, like I did once before. The results are absolutely damning for you. Here you've basically done nothing, while in other games you've posted more often and with actual content. You said that you do better later in game, but us moving into day three has resulted in no improvement whatsoever in your play. And at the same time, in another ongoing game, you've managed to post more than three times as often as here, with actual reads, thoughts, and analysis. That game is still in day bloody one. The day of the week has not mattered either, either way your posts have sucked. I have no patience left for your blatant excuses.

Your attempt to portray SGRaaize's second and third points as being somehow in conflict is truly pathetic. Fact is, you

have

been lurking hardcore. When you have posted, you

have

talked too much about mechanics and far too little about who the scum might be. These accusations against you are absolutely correct, and rather than try to remedy the situation, you've tried to misrepresent the case as scummy.

How much more obvscum can you get? I'm starting to reconsider Surye for the sole reason that you're also voting him.

[Feysal]

Pere would not bring sadness to me to see rope.

Feysal, however, does not bring any happiness.

Feed them to the drowned god.

Really. What is it you want from me then? This perhaps?

A Gaggle of Geese and SpyreX are confirmed town masons.

The other day I was updating my notes, and I realized that WrathChild and Bunnylover were wrong about the mass redirect invalidating your confirmation from Katy. Look at what Katy actually claimed. In post #1477, she explained why she checked the masons, and she specifically mentioned having an extra chance to use an ability due to having one per phase. There is your first clue. Then in post #1542 she said explicitly what she did during the night. She tried to revive Amrun, but was redirected to Riceballtail instead. This means she could not have checked the masons that night, therefore she must have done so during the day. And since day actions were not redirected, the confirmation she obtained for the masons is valid.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

I'm saying this now to put all remaining doubts about our masons to rest. After this, there will be no need for Bunnylover or anyone else to target our masons hoping for an investigation or kill. They are already confirmed, and when it comes to killing, the scum are going to do that for you. Has anyone added two and two together yet about last night's actions? Katy was both killed and removed from the game. If the latter was done by Bunnylover, and she tried to target Gaggle, then it would be logical to assume that the kill was meant for Gaggle as well. However, it is strange that Baby Spice also claimed to have had her action redirected to Katy, but from SGRaaize. It seems very odd that a mass redirect would work this way. In fact it sounds like Katy was turned into a lightning rod instead.

Anyway, even though Gaggle and SpyreX (as well as Riceballtail) are confirmed town, that does not mean they would automatically be right, and I have no intention of blindly sheeping them. I have my own reads, and I'd need more reason than SpyreX saying so before I ignore them. I think that lynching SGRaaize is probably wrong, and I still don't get why he thinks Surye and Zdenek are town.

Ahh, sir, you have dangled the bait. I'll probably accept. But, we both know what happens to me when I start posting actual reads, thoughts, and analysis.

You'll probably step on someone's toes, and end up killed because of it. However, you are likely to end up killed anyway, so the least you could do is share your thoughts while you are able. If you are town.

[Feysal]

@MOD: Gaggle unvoted SGRaaize in #2067.

Time keeps passing and we keep talking, but aside of the SGRaaize wagon which I still don't get, I don't see any consolidation of votes. We're going to need a plan of action soon.

Meanwhile, I'd like to have clarification on some things. GreyICE, you said that you were told by the moderator that Gandalf was not hostile to you. What exactly does that mean? Also, when and how did you come by this information?

[Feysal]

Ok then lets work together.

If one could infact inflict violence on PV I would give them a high five.

Are you asking volunteers to come forward by any chance?

GreyICE, you said that you were told by the moderator that Gandalf was not hostile to you. What exactly does that mean? Also, when and how did you come by this information?

Still would like this answered.

[Feysal]

What kind of Town claims frickin scum as a "Joke"?

My role PM was ambiguous about my alignment, so I daycopped myself just to be sure. Good thing too. It turns out I'm scum.

I didn't claim scum. I claimed that I investigated myself as scum. I could be paranoid. I simply believe that I am scum.

Gandalf apparently. But then again...

I have a flavor of investigation as one of the abilities I can use. It tells me if someone's bears hostility towards me. I doubt it works on undead period (I'd probably get no result if it's like most of the rest), I don't know how that would interact with third parties, but I'm fairly certain how it interacts with scum.

You answered everything except the when, and that was what interested me the most. It is time I explained why.

There are only so many times you could have investigated Gandalf, two days and two nights. Night two is out, since everything seems to point toward the conclusion that Katy was turned into a lightning rod, and you could not have obtained a reliable result. Day two is out, since you yourself said you had mass roleblocked everyone. Night one is out, since that was when Bunnylover used the mass redirect, so again you could not have obtained a reliable result.

That leaves day one as the only possibility. And there is something off with that too. For reference, here are links to posts where you mentioned a read on Gandalf on day one:

Scum Gandalf

#11, #258, #324

Town Gandalf

#872, #993, #1103, #1108, #1281, #1307, #1408

You started the game suspecting Gandalf, but halfway through day one you started to defend him. This would make perfect sense if you had obtained information on him then...

except the rules say that abilities used during the day resolve during twilight, so you couldn't have

.

And don't get me started on how weird it would be if you investigated Gandalf despite already having a town read on him, after the way you criticized Katy in #1465 for checking out the masons.

Do explain, because this does not add up.

[Feysal]

@2135 feysal: that was the RVS, stupid.

Of course it was. My point was that you had joked about being scum this very game, and I wouldn't think it impossible for SGRaaize to do it as town. I've seen it happen many times off-site.

I find GreyICE's answer to my findings to be at least plausible, and I'm content to leave it at that. The way Katsuki crashed into the game claiming Vaya was confirmed town did not look like something scum would do anyway. Of course I'd like to know what the hell that is about.

[Feysal]

That puts Vaya at L-1. It would be time to claim, except we can't claim this game. More importantly, I just spotted Vaya in Theme Park, and she left without saying a word. If she can't be interested enough to post even when facing lynch, and given how badly the game is stalling, I'm not going to wait.

Unvote: Surye
Vote: Vaya

I'm ignoring what Katsuki said about Vaya being confirmed. Katsuki has been out of touch for a month, and was probably mistaken about who Vaya replaced. Having accounted for IceyCupcake's actions, I can't see when they could have obtained any information to confirm Vaya.

There's the hammer. Now, we still have twilight, and we should have enough firepower to get PeregrineV. I'd prefer not to see SGRaaize being hit, we can let him have his chance to confirm himself.

Don't, in any fashion, protect me. Let me get finished off.

Hang in there. I will be doing something tonight to brighten your tomorrow. That is a promise.

[Feysal]

Posts!

Activity!

Life!

You all have no idea how much I enjoyed reading the past five or so pages. I laughed several times, and I am laughing as I write this, thinking about how the game is about to be blown wide open. I am sorely tempted to say so many things now, yet reason compels me to wait. I did not expect the day to continue like this, but it has no impact on my plans. My promise still stands, SpyreX is going to love me tomorrow.

As far as I'm concerned, Vaya, GreyICE, WrathChild and Gandalf are confirmed as third party beyond a shadow of doubt. I don't know what GreyICE meant when he said they were confirmed by the moderator, but I consider the fact that none of them have been modkilled to be proof. The rules explicitly forbid scum claims and outing partners, and since the four have survived doing both, they are not scum. Also, the point-based win condition has some evidence from earlier. IceyCupcake slipped something about earning points, and ever since then I've strongly suspected them of being third party. The mass roleblock did not seem like a town move either, and I just knew there was something fishy about that Gandalf "investigation" I questioned GreyICE about.

I'm also happy about having had WrathChild in the third party group in my private list of reads, although my reasoning was partly off.

I'm interested to hear that SGRaaize blocked me on night two. In case it was not obvious from my questions next morning about why Baby Spice was unharmed, I'd tried to attack her. Something I'm very curious about though is that I never got a message saying my action had failed, like I did with the mass roleblock. Maybe I was not blocked, and both my attack and SGRaaize's block were redirected to Katy by making her a lightning rod. Either that, or SGRaaize lied about that action. Or, the mod made a mistake.

In my PM, it states pretty clearly that all Undead are Town, I remember Feysal claiming he didn't know that which is why I suspected him while pretending I didn't know what he was talking about either.

I remember. It was this, right? I found it odd how Zdenek dropped his suspicion of Pine when he claimed. I thought that Zdenek probably knew Pine was town, and he could only know if he was a wight like Pine or scum. Something he said later seemed to contradict him being a wight, and that left scum. I still find him suspicious for this, among other reasons.

Vote: Zdenek

Finally, a couple questions:

@SpyreX

: I remember reading that you've been taking damage every phase, yet your damage status did not change last night. Did you take any damage that night, and if yes, can you say how much?

@PeregrineV

: How many points of damage did you take on night one?

I assure you I have reasons to be asking these questions, but I prefer to keep them to myself until I receive answers.

[Feysal]

As for mod confirmation Feysal, way to kibish your entire post at all the wrong times. Snow just revealed Vaya's alignment in thread, she was not town or scum. That's mod confirmed third party there.

Correction, your faction was revealed to be adventurers, but the nature of your faction was not revealed. It would be a reasonable assumption that you were in fact one of two scum teams. However, the fact that outing yourselves and your partners has not resulted in disciplinary measures proves to me that you are indeed third party. I do not disagree about your confirmation, only the reasons.

By the way, the reason I had WrathChild pegged as third party was because his claimed healing ability did not seem compatible with town after SnakePlissken revealed the undead take damage from healing. PeregrineV had also claimed an ability to heal, and I imagined the two of them were clerics much like in the last game. I was debating whether the two of them could be town compatible, and the way WrathChild had played did not seem like scum at all, while PeregrineV has looked like obvscum since forever.

On the topic of PeregrineV, I don't get why SpyreX continues to want him lynched. He can be killed with attacks, and the lynch would be better spent on someone else.

"Hey, lets come clean work with town and win. Scum wont be able to afford killing US because there always is the chance we will work with them."

Say what?

Masons

choosing

to work with the town, instead of simply

being

town?

Scum not killing the masons because there is a chance they will work with them instead?

What the hell have you been smoking? There are no words to describe how horrible this looks.

There are a number of reasons why I have never been able to completely put my doubts concerning the masons behind. The most obvious one is that they are both still alive, when they should have been obvious scum targets since day one. Another is SpyreX's claim of having received damage every phase. If this were true, SpyreX would be the

only

player who received damage last night, apart from Katy. And then there is the fact that said damage had no impact on his status.

Stay with me here. There are four states: healthy, bruised, bleeding and dying. My best guess is that the thresholds are every 25%, in other words, you are considered healthy if you have over 75% HP, bruised if over 50%, bleeding if over 25% and dying if over 0%. Furthermore, I would guess that typical town HP would be in the 6-12 range. Even if SpyreX had 12 HP, if he was already bleeding, he cannot have taken any more than 2 points of damage and remain in bleeding state. For a scum attack that would be pitiful, and it seems much more like a probe by a town player, testing whether he was undead, or something.

The alternative is that SpyreX has considerably higher maximum HP, but that would be worrisome in its own right. SpyreX has been taunting other players to attack him, and early on Mana_Ku said there were reasons why they claimed. I could imagine scum false claiming masons if they were confident that they could not be killed through night actions, be it due to extra high HP or perhaps some type of immunity.

The final possibility is that SpyreX did not take any damage at all, and he simply made it up to boost his credentials.

Of course there is Katy's investigation. However, she explicitly said it did not reveal alignment, and I don't even know whether she used it on Mana_Ku or Gaggle. And there is the possibility that the masons are of different alignments. Some moderators do not differentiate between confirmed and unconfirmed masons, so I have to ask. Gaggle, do you have positive confirmation that SpyreX is the same alignment as you?

I should not even have to ask, but the way SpyreX has been acting since Vaya was revealed has been too anti-town to ignore. In fact SpyreX has been acting strangely ever since he replaced in, what with ruling out Surye and Zdenek as suspects and never explaining why. I feel he may have been abusing his status as a claimed mason to protect his allies, since I can see no way at least one of Surye and Zdenek would not be scum. Even now he is acting defeatist and pressuring the adventurers, instead of accepting the simple fact that the town needs them to win.

On the other hand, Gaggle has consistently made more sense and appeared more town. If there was a rat in this masonry, my bet would be on SpyreX.

[Feysal]

On to other matters. Interestingly, everyone seems to have forgotten about Bunnylover, and the fact that it was she who brought Bowser into the game. Bunnylover explicitly confirmed Bowser as town, so they are joined at the hip. That would be a stupid thing for scum to say, so I am inclined to trust them both. Anyways, Bunnylover has been revealing plenty of information which has been confirmed later on, so I have no reason to doubt her.

All I have on inHimshallibe is meta. As it happens, I am in two ongoing games with him (I was in a third that ended some time ago), and from what I can make of his meta, this is inHim as town. I would expect him to be more aggressive as scum. It is not much to go on, but it is something. The fact that SpyreX had him on his early kill list helps too. I do not trust SpyreX or that list, since much of it was the opposite of my reads.

Finally, SGRaaize. I don't think he can confirm himself through actions. Neighborizing Riceballtail would not confirm him in any way, and I can easily believe scum having a neighborizer power. Two most recent neighborizers I have encountered were both scum. But, I don't think he needs to confirm himself. I believe his play makes him town, and after everything he has claimed about his role and abilities, I think I can guess exactly who and what he is. I will not seek his death, not today, not ever, not without evidence pointing to him being scum.

[Feysal]

Feysal is awesome and reading contextually my quote in regards to the NOT MASON NOT TOWN ADVENTUERERS as somehow being related to... Gaggle and I is enough that if the adventurers will kill PV I'll gladly lynch Feysal.

Okay, I'm fine with being suspected due to process of elimination, but this is just silly. Yes, I misunderstood what you wrote, I see that now.

This is what you wrote:

Orrr maybe its the fact that you've opted to play "Third party group with a different win condition" as "In no way, shape, or form distinguishable from actual mafia" as a REALLY COOL WAY to go bro instead of D1 when the masons freaking claimed going "Hey, lets come clean work with town and win. Scum wont be able to afford killing US because there always is the chance we will work with them."

And this is how I parsed it:

Orrr maybe its the fact that you've opted to play "Third party group with a different win condition" as "In no way, shape, or form distinguishable from actual mafia" as a REALLY COOL WAY to go bro... ...instead of D1 when the masons freaking claimed going "Hey, lets come clean work with town and win. Scum wont be able to afford killing US because there always is the chance we will work with them."

...when the masons freaking claimed going "Hey, lets come clean...

...the masons... ...going "Hey, lets come clean...

spyrex is town and we vaguely know what we're doing here feysal sooooooo.

Fine. I have obviously been paranoid about you two for quite some time, and with the process of elimination leaving very few potential scum, it has gotten worse. However, I now have an idea which might explain the disproportionately low number of scum in this setup.

If CSL is not brotected by some kind of voodoo he's scum and needs to die.

You are not reading very well. I explained the deal with CSL, who has only ever posted as Bowser, in my post #2347.

@Feysal: While you did peg me as 3rd party you did so under false assumptions. I physically attacked Snake, I did not attempt to heal him, apparently he could only be damaged by healers or whatever.

I know I was only partly right, I thought I saw a connection between you and PeregrineV. But the reason I suspected you had actually nothing to do with your attack on SnakePlissken. You had claimed being able to heal, SnakePlissken claimed he would take damage from healing. I questioned whether your ability was compatible with town.

But that is not important any more. Like I said above, I have an idea for why there appear to be very few actual scum in this setup. The idea is that you four, the Adventurers, are in fact considered threats to the town. You are third party... but the town cannot win while you live.

I am not accusing you of lying about your win condition. I am suggesting that it may not have occurred to you that the town win condition would view you as threats despite your third party roles. Or perhaps you have thought of that, and wanted to hide it since revealing such information could have driven the town into a frenzy of bloodlust. As such, I find it perfectly understandable if you don't want to confirm whether this theory of mine is correct... but it would be cool if you would. We

do

have a way of working together, thanks to a mechanic which may finally work in our favor: death from claiming.

If the town does need you to die, we can still cooperate with the understanding that, once we are confident that the actual scum have been eliminated and you have enough points to win, you simply say your names and die as a result. This way you can leave the game gracefully and allow the town to win, and the town has no need to get in the way of you amassing points.

So - what do you say?

[Feysal]

It's funny what I know here.

Not really. Clearly you don't know everything, such as my role. If you knew that, you might understand that I am in fact trying my damnedest to work with you and ensure that both you and the town win this. However, I'm also covering our bases, including the chance that you are in fact considered threats to the town. I am not saying I would want to lynch any of you. I suggested the suicide via claim method as an alternative, and only in the event that the scum are dead and you have enough points to win. If you think I am scum trying to get you lynched, you could not be more wrong. I dare you to find another player more committed to keeping you alive.

Ask the mod. Ask whether it is possible for a third party player to stand in the way of the town win condition. Ask whether it applies to you. I have asked this, and I know that certain third parties can be considered threats to the town. Not speculation, this is fact. I don't know whether this applies to you, and I'm trying to find a way to cooperate with you even in case it does. I believe I have such a way, and I offer it.

The scum have sent roleblocks and garbage into me since day 1. It explains why Feysal was so suspicious of the cop claim - his faction sent a roleblock into me phase 1 (like they did last phase - you think I hide

every

phase? Silly Rabbit).

You're barking up the wrong tree. I arrived in my conclusion without any such knowledge. I am simply that good at keeping track of actions, and I realized that your investigation claim did not add up. Look at my play as cult in Stars Aligned III if you don't believe me - the game was a huge mess of night actions, and I kept track of them, theorized based on them, and crafted false claims for the whole scum team. I'm perfectly capable of spotting one fake investigation here.

Come to think of it -

SpyreX

, you were cult with me in Stars Aligned III. You may remember what I did for us in that game. If I were able to prove to you that I am not scum here, would you trust my ability to figure out a way to get us out of this mess on top, with both town and third parties securing wins?

I just might have a way to prove myself to you at my disposal. I have been hinting at it for a while. Not hinting any more, might as well confirm it. I do have a way to prove myself.

VOTE: SGR

Look here, I am trying to ensure that all you third parties and the town get a win out of this. But this simply won't do. Yes, you are trying to score points by lynching undead, but do you really expect the town will help you in this? On the contrary, doing something like this will only make the town distrust you, and by extension your entire faction. We can find other ways to get you points, ways that don't involve the deaths of any more town players.

And town is what SGRaaize is. I said earlier that I had figured out who and what he was, but I did not want to say it out loud in case he turned out to be Baby Spice's target. Now that the word lich has been mentioned the cat is out of the bag, so I won't be hiding it any longer.

Remember the opening post of the game? Remember the lich that activated the artifact, and thus initiated this whole mess? The leader of the sorcerers? I think SGRaaize is him. I do not want to lynch His Evilness.

SGRaaize, can you confirm if you indeed are what I suspect? Check with the mod first whether you may confirm the guess of another player, I would not want you to be accidentally killed over an indirect claim.

[Feysal]

My, it has been a busy day. And what an outcome! Zdenek confesses to being scum and is hammered. Let's see what Snow_Bunny says about this. Scum claims were a modkillable offense, remember.

Now, I've got plenty to reply to.

And it totally starts with Feysal, because that was a

scum

teehee I thought of a great fakeclaim to explain all my actions, not a town action.

Feysal is confirmed scum folks.

What.

Let's see what this read is based on.

- I have said I possess the means to confirm myself. And I do.
- I have repeatedly offered you my cooperation to ensure that both you and the town win.
- I have, from the looks of it, consistently voted only scum and third party all game.
- I have for the last few posts been playing my pro-town play at its finest.

And you call me confirmed scum.

What the hell

. Not only are you wrong, you are wrong to such a degree as to make yourself ridiculous when you learn what I actually am. I guarantee it. I don't think I have ever played a better or more pro-town game on this site, and if you try to get me killed for it, don't expect to be forgiven soon.

Thank goodness there are players in this game with a good head on their shoulders, and my fate here is up to them as well, not solely to you.

Feysal sooo said that he's been planning this fakey for days, thinking that I actually give a shit about his claim when he's acted this scummy.

Go on, keep calling me scummy. You will only embarrass yourself worse. I have been planning for something for quite some time, but there is nothing fake about it. You will see.

Jesus, if it's a five man scum team and there's 10 dead townies.

Perhaps not. Zdenek said that with the four of you you would outnumber town

tomorrow

, meaning after another night of deaths.

Literally Baby spice is the only thing standing between you guys and total oblivion.

*snort*

Haha, this is epic. So it sounds like we've got Peregrine on BeatDown Row, Adventurers kill SGR, we lynch Zdenek. Two scum left. How is Inhim and Feysal confirmed scum?

Actions, in that they were soooo pushing for 'we have to eliminate Gandalf TODAY because he's a major THREAT' and they didn't even consider that scum might be, I dunno, a threat too, whereas Gandalf knows better than to kill town right now

FAIL.

Look at where my vote is. And try reading my posts, they are good for you. I have consistently wanted to cooperate with you all, including Gandalf.

Now you can accept we've done things like kill Katy, and we're not very sorry about it, and we'd do it again, but not in the here and now

You

were behind turning Katy into a lightning rod?

I see there is talk about not using any damaging actions during the night. That is fine by me.

[Feysal]

I need to give a

V/LA announcement until Monday

.

I will be leaving for Stockholm by ship tomorrow, and will be gone the weekend. This may not matter, what with twilight approaching, but anyway. I expect I will see you the next day.

[Feysal]

Oh yeah Bunnylover brought CSL into the game so that makes them confirmed something or other yeah this is heading rapidly to the nonsense zone.

Nonsense zone. I like that. Sounds like an accurate description of this game.

Yes, there are a lot of players who are some manner of confirmed. It is interesting really. The massive number of town deaths we have had has only served to isolate the scum faster by process of elimination. I really did not expect there to be four Adventurers, so that made it happen even sooner. For once, I am confident the game is good as won.

[Feysal]

Since I happen to be here and items are going to be picked up by whoever comes online first anyway...

Grab: Circlet

We can figure out who gets what later.

Feysal (awaiting possible clear)

That may be difficult to achieve today. You can thank GreyICE for that. I may be able to manage anyway, my night action was only half of my plan anyway.

Oh, and let's not forget this.

Vote: GreyICE
Unvote: GreyICE

[Feysal]

-I couldn't use a damaging ability
-I couldn't use an ability that targeted me

Two limitations? Did you receive both during the same phase? And did the second one really restrict you from targeting

yourself?

I'd like you to double check that.

[Feysal]

Hehe, I can do a little more than post restrictions.

Like the one "can't target any other players?" You're not the only lucky recipient...

Okay. This needs to be said.

WHAT THE HELL DID YOU THINK YOU WERE DOING, YOU MORON?

Seriously, did you think at all? If you were worried about someone going rogue and killing someone despite assurances of not doing so, that is one thing. By using such a broad restriction you also prevented a large number of possible pro-town actions for no apparent reason. Would it have killed you to allow SGRaaize to neighborize someone? I think not.

Do not do that again.

To everyone else in town, if it was not immediately obvious, I was also hit by the restriction of not being able to target anyone else, which conveniently ruled out every single action I had available. The restriction was in effect for last night phase, and should have been lifted now, unless GreyICE lied about the duration. I was not targeted by the one that said I could not use non-damaging abilities though, and I wonder where that came from.

By the by, note the nice patena of Green all over the town that demonstrates that scum haven't been doing too much damage last night.

By the by, note the gaping hole where there used to be a big-ass dragon named SpyreX. Something tells me that this mass restriction of yours did not live up to expectations.

Anyone else want to come forward and say they got restrictions? I would be particularly interested to hear if anyone else got the second restriction SGRaaize got. If you did not notice, it seems to be specifically designed to prevent him from confirming himself, which the restriction from GreyICE already did, and therefore superfluous.

I'm getting sick of listening people say how SGRaaize must be scum. But you're not listening. You want him dead, and nothing can stop you from achieving that goal. Personally, I think he is the least likely of the unconfirmed players to be scum. I grant that his claim of having tested whether RBT was undead was weird though. What kind of mechanics twist were you afraid of?

Oh, and I think that the items came from SpyreX. You know, a dragon's hoard? I wouldn't be surprised if Vaya's win condition had something to do with that.

[Feysal]

Oh dear, the scumbag is mad that I shut his team down. Watching your victory slide from your hands because you're tightening your grasp?

You insufferable, arrogant ass.

You've never so much as made a case on me. You've never acknowledged my defense. You've not even acknowledged the big dead dragon in the room, proving that you failed to block whoever killed him. And still you keep calling me scum every time you mention me. How goes the tunneling, GreyICE? Reached China yet?

You've not given a single reason for why you would want to block SGRaaize and me from targeting other players with any actions. You've not even considered that you could be wrong. That is what makes you a failure as a mafia player. Did you know that I have a non-public blacklist of players, reserved for those few who manage to royally tick me off with some exceptional stupidity? Keep this up, and you will have some serious apologizing to do in post game if you want to avoid being stuck on the list.

Now isn't it surprising exactly how many of the players babbling about being confirmed suddenly aren't able to confirm themselves because of little old me.

Look at you gloat. You're actually pleased with yourself for having stood in our way. I can see no town reason why you'd have done what you did. I can see an obvious scum reason though. You are third party. You said yourself that you had an interest in keeping the game going for as long as possible. You sided with the town when the town was in trouble, and now that the scum are on the verge of being eliminated, you don't actually want to find them quickly. You want to drag this out for more time to gather points, and so you don't want anyone else to confirm themselves.

I don't trust you, and neither should anyone in the town. I have offered to cooperate with you, and you have obstinately tunneled on me and rebuffed me at every turn. This latest action of yours crosses the line.

You'd think they'd confirm themselves immediately, what with it being THE MOST important thing town could do right now, but they don't even have a convincing fakeclaim for me stopping them. inHim, Feysal, SGR, bag it and tag it.

If I was not on the fence about inHim, I would propose an avatar bet that there is not one actual scum on that list.

Fortunately, you're wrong about one thing. I did say that my action was only half of my plan, and I can make do without it. You have inconvenienced me, but you have not stopped me from confirming myself yet.

Sit down, and prepare to have your mind blown.

Literally Baby spice is the only thing standing between you guys and total oblivion.

*snort*

Take the damn hint.

Baby Spice is not what has been standing between the town and oblivion.

I

am.

I

am the serial killer.

Flavor-wise I am a demon, straight from the D&D monster manual. I was summoned by an incompetent sorceror to help in the battle against the wizards, but I escaped my bonds and am now a free agent. I'm supposed to be collecting souls and tempting mortals with demonic power.

First things first. I am third party, with a point-based win condition much like the Adventurers. I need ten points to win, more than the four Adventurers do together, but I seem to have more and easier ways to score points than they do. I get one point for every kill using my abilities, and one point for every hammer vote. I also have a special action that can net me up to five points depending on the outcome, I will explain this later. I don't need to survive to win, and in fact I have accepted a while back that I won't.

The fact that I am not scum despite being a serial killer will be proven when Snow_Bunny does not modkill me for this claim. Also, you may notice there is nothing inherently anti-town about my win condition. I was confused about that, so I asked Snow_Bunny if I was considered scum and if I could win with the town. The answer was extremely interesting. I am not scum, but I am considered a threat.

As long as I live, no other faction can win.

Pay close attention, I have just signed my own death warrant. I have to die if anyone else is to win, but I don't have to die now. I'm perfectly content to take my own life by claiming my name, thus saving the town one lynch, once I am confident I have the points I require and the town victory is secure. Barring any further interference, I should have my points tomorrow. Today might have been possible, if GreyICE had not been an overzealous idiot.

Now you may understand what I was saying in my post #2377. I know that I am an obstacle to anyone else winning, despite being third party. It makes perfect sense to me that the same could also apply to others, meaning the Adventurers,

and they might not even know it.

I had to specifically ask Snow_Bunny whether I could win with the town, and the answer was that only posthumously. I suspect that the same is true for the Adventurers, but they never thought to ask.

One final thing you may be confused about is why I even care about the town, enough to risk hostility from the Adventurers. There is nothing in my win condition that would require me to care. The answer is, I just do. It is who I am. Ask Gaggle-Faraday, he seems to have figured out what sort of guy I am. I much prefer being town to being scum, but it turns out I

love

being third party. This enables me to choose my friends and play however I like. And given that my loyalties lie with the town, it should be obvious which side I would choose. I have been trying to help the town from square one, long before it became necessary for me to do so.

By the way, while I've spoken about confirming myself, I have carefully avoided saying that I could confirm myself as town, which I am not. I have said I could confirm myself as not scum, and that is true.

My abilities

So much for that. Now for the important stuff, what my abilities are and what I can do with them. I have changed the names of all abilities just in case, but all other details are exact.

Claws

My main and only attack, can be used an unlimited number of times. Causes 6 points of damage to one target.

Gate

Summons another demonic player into the game. I don't know what abilities this player would have, only that we would be allied. We would also not be able to talk privately. I can only use this ability if I have been at L-2, or I have less than 5 HP left. I can not do this at all if there are 8 players or less alive. One shot.

Temptation

Opens a QuickTopic for the phase after the ability is used. My identity would not be revealed, but I would be obligated to say that I can grant one wish to the player I talk to. The wish can be anything in theory, as long as Snow_Bunny approves it. However, only some wishes will actually work, those being the ones I get points from. I get three points if the player wishes for an item, and I get five points if the player wishes to harm or kill another player. If the wish is anything else, the wish is not granted and the wisher takes 4 HP of damage. When the phase ends, the QuickTopic is closed, whether a wish was made or not. I can only persuade the player to make a certain wish, but I cannot force anything. One shot.

That is all. I only have these three actions. The first and third were ruled out by GreyICE's restriction, and the second by the fact that I've never been at L-2 and I'm completely uninjured.

So what have I done? I have used, or tried to use, my claws every phase except last night. I killed implosion, though I'm not sure if others damaged him also, on day one. I tried to attack PeregrineV on night one, and due to the redirection I have no clue who I ended up damaging. I tried to attack Surye on day two after the lynch failed, and was blocked by GreyICE. Then I tried to attack Baby Spice on night two, and again I don't know who I actually damaged, though it seems possible my damage contributed to Katy's death, since I believe she was made a lightning rod. Yesterday I killed PeregrineV, and last night I wanted to use Temptation on Gaggle. Congratulations GreyICE, the one night in the game I tried to do something other than kill someone you threw that restriction at me. If you had not done that, I would be claiming all of this to Gaggle instead of here in public.

That

was my plan.

Note that the deaths of implosion and PeregrineV are flavored, and that those two are my only confirmed kills. I have not been explicitly told that my kills would be flavored, but given that I've got these huge claws to tear people in pieces with, it makes perfect sense. There should be the confirmation of my role, in those two kills. Since I also hammered Vaya, that puts me at three confirmed points. By using Temptation today, hammering today and killing by night I could reach ten points by tomorrow.

What happens next?

I've pretty much given up trying to talk sense to GreyICE. I wanted to help in making sure the Adventurers had enough points to win, and then I would have committed suicide with them. Now, I have little hope of them cooperating in this, though I wish they would surprise me. I'm putting my hope of a town victory in Gaggle-Faraday. He is the only confirmed town player alive, and I hold his play in high regard, as I mentioned once before. As of right now, if he says jump, I jump. If he says jump off a cliff, I jump off a cliff, but I would hope that he waits at least until tomorrow to do that.

There it is. I've now shared everything I thought to be important. If anyone wants any clarifications, explanations for why I chose the targets I did or anything else, ask away.

Now, can we get down to business and lynch Surye? I am confident that he actually is scum, and that SpyreX was making a fool of himself by defending two scum players yesterday. The case remains the same as it was then, the Amished tell combined with being absolutely useless even while he still was in the game. And the fact that LMP gave me a town read for a very weak reason, as if he feared retribution from me.

FOS: Surye

I would vote, but I want the hammer. In fact I need it pretty badly.

Oh, and GreyICE, consider yourself owned. I wonder if you can somehow keep saying I am scum, even after I've said I must die, which no scum needing to live would ever say. I am prepared to give up my life gracefully to let the town win.

That

is the strength of my commitment to seeing the town win. Can you say the same? Can any of the Adventurers say the same?

Preview edit: Excellent timing, GreyICE is online. I've been typing this for hours. I get to see his first reaction.

[Feysal]

hey feysal, if you use temptation on me and I wish to kill someone you will be past 10 points, right?

It would bring me close at least. I have three points that I know of. I may have four, if my damage ended up killing Katy and that kill counts, but I can't really count on that, and the different kill flavor seems to indicate otherwise. But, if I get to hammer today and attack someone tonight, that should earn me two points, and using Temptation on top of that should bring me to ten points and enough to win.

who brought bowser into the game

Bunnylover did. And confirmed that they were of the same alignment too.

there's probably one more town player left, wow.

I don't think the town situation is quite that bleak. I think there are four of you left. Here is where my reads are.

Town

A Gaggle of Geese
Bunnylover
Bowser
SGRaaize (?)

Adventurers

GreyICE
WrathChild
Vaya
gandalf5166

Serial killer

Feysal

Hunter

Baby Spice

Scum

Surye
inHimshallibe (?)

We have three unconfirmed players in game, those being SGRaaize, inHimshallibe and Surye. There must be scum among them, but there must be town also. Surye is my best bet for scum. For additional evidence, look at the vote count at the end of day two, the day we could not unvote. That day some players made themselves conspicuous by being off the Surye wagon, resulting in a no lynch. SGRaaize was one, but he voted Vaya before anyone had voted Surye, so he gets a pass. Both inHim and Zdenek however wasted their votes, on Gandalf and Bunnylover, while the Surye wagon was already happening. Why would they do that? I think that they were purposely dividing votes in an effort to cause a no lynch. If Surye was town, I bet that Zdenek would have voted him.

Further evidence in favor of SGRaaize is that yesterday he hammered Zdenek, while both inHim and Surye were off the wagon. Surye was of course flaking, but inHim was there, voting GreyICE of all people. He said something vague about Zdenek but never did anything.

My conclusion is that SGRaaize is town, Surye is scum, and if there is another wizard left alive, it has to be inHim.

@Feysal: Please, keep your tone down. I hate personal attacks.

I believe I'm done shouting now. Thing is, nothing gets a rise out of me like someone refusing to listen to reason when I'm firmly invested in a game.

Oh, and one more thing.

Grab: Rod

There were two rods, and I think this is the last item left. I doubt I would need it for anything, so I will see what it does and then leave it for someone else. Since I can apparently leave it unattended at any time I like, I should be able to coordinate with others so it gets picked up by town. Gaggle won't be able to pick up another item until tomorrow, should he want it.

[Feysal]

Hello, ranger. The tracking, two-weapon fighting and undead favored enemy are all dead giveaways.

Now, I see there are four votes on SGRaaize, and one on Surye. My win condition of course compels me to hammer SGRaaize should it come to that, but I'd hate being forced to. Maybe Gandalf really believes he is scum, maybe he just wants his point for lynching undead. I can't really fault him for playing to his win condition if that is the case. But I have a different suggestion which should make everyone happy.

Today we lynch Surye. There are several good reasons why. One is that restricting SGRaaize obviously did not prevent SpyreX from dying or Gaggle getting injured. Another is the fact that SGRaaize is injured, which Surye is not. If you insist on having SGRaaize killed, you can use actions to do that today. I'd bet that today's special effect is that attacks do extra damage. Gandalf can get his precious point that way too, not just by lynching.

I would have no part in killing SGRaaize. I will be using Temptation today, and during the night I can finish off inHim with my attack. I'd rather not take the risk that Surye survives my attack due to being uninjured now. Is this acceptable?

As for Baby Spice, we're pretty much in endgame here. Perhaps it would be time to reveal who exactly you are hunting for.

And GreyICE, if you restricted anyone other than me and SGRaaize, now is the time to let us know.

Gaggle, did you take damage during last day or night phase?

[Feysal]

I'm afraid you may be out of luck, and there are no more undead left. If inHim is one, he will die before he can be of any help. Bowser maybe? We don't know anything about his role yet.

GreyICE continues to amaze me. I have claimed a role that guarantees my death, and he still tries to say I'm scum? Whatever. Meanwhile, I don't follow his conclusions about his restrictions and their results at all. We know that someone killed SpyreX last night. GreyICE claims to have successfully restricted me and SGRaaize, so neither of us can be responsible. inHim he says was not affected, and Surye was not targeted at all, and those two he chooses to call probable town and defend? That does not begin to make sense.

[Feysal]

Feysal soooo wants to say it, it's pregnant in every post that he knows that the scum team didn't kill SpyreX at all, and torturing him was so much funnnnnn.

You thought you were torturing me? Maybe by forcing me to listen to your stupidity, but not really. You just keep making more and more of a fool out of yourself, but who am I to stop you? If you want to make yourself ridiculous, that is your prerogative.

Do you understand why today has been so fucking funny for me? He just can't help but wait to blurt it out, he's been dancing from foot to foot trying not to scream that the adventuring party killed SpyreX, like it's some enormous condemnation.

You know what is funny to me? Every time you open your mouth you throw up another mile of rope to hang your credibility with. Do keep it up. When this is over, there will be no hole deep and dark enough to hide your humiliation in.

Oh and by the by, it's a piece of information that no serial killer could know.

And yet I did suspect you. Not immediately of course, but the more you kept avoiding the topic like a hot potato the more suspicious you became. And to think that you thought you were torturing me while you were busy exposing yourself.

And besides... A dragon? A group of adventurers? Hello, talk about obvious. It is like a primal imperative. Add the new kill flavor, and Vaya was my main suspect for SpyreX's death.

GreyICE, you seem to be living under the delusion that other people could not be smarter than you. Luckily for you, and everyone you play with in the future, I am here to teach you this is not so. I can notice things you don't. I can draw conclusions you can't. I can think of scenarios you could not dream of. Bottom line is, I am better at mafia than you are, and so are many other players in this game. You badly need a lesson in humility, and you are about to get it.

And even now, the question of who injured Gaggle remains unanswered.

[Feysal]

FTR, our wincon had nothing to do with killing the dragon specifically. We just knew that he was evil. But yeah, we have no idea who hit Gaggle.

I remembered that Vaya had declined to share his win condition, so I imagined slaying the dragon might be it. And I believe you. When Snow_Bunny mistakenly listed Gaggle as healthy in the first vote count today, GreyICE seemed to have no idea that he should be injured.

But your keen insight and dogged pursuit of the truth, Feysal? It stymied me. You stopped me in my tracks, Feysal, stopped me cold.

Such praise! I am not worthy!

The sarcasm of your reply is not lost on me. At least this time you managed to be sort of funny. It will of course be even funnier when you have to repeat that, without the sarcasm.

Oh, and thank you for the perfect opportunity to use that quote. I've been wanting to say it for months, but the right moment never came. Just now you were practically begging for it.

Just in case I annoyed someone else with the tone of my last post, I know perfectly well that the rule about there always being someone smarter also applies to me. I have been humbled more than once during my mafia career, but this is not one of those games. Here the accuracy of my scumhunting has been exceptional, and here it is GreyICE who gets to eat a large slice of humble pie.

GreyICE, I will make one last effort to make you understand what everyone else, including your allies, already has. I'm dead. I claimed a role that guarantees my death. Whether I was scum or serial killer, by tomorrow I will be alone, and the only one who might want to keep me alive any longer is Baby Spice, to have more time to look for her target. If I was scum, I would gain absolutely nothing from a charade such as this. The only reasonable conclusion from this is that I am not scum, I am exactly what I have said, and I want to finish off the scum and get my points so we can end this.

Why do you not understand this?

[Feysal]

@Feysal: What happens when you win? How many points do you need to win still? Are you able to get those points or are you a lost cause?

I don't win until the game ends. When I get the required points, nothing happens. I need seven more points, and I am able to get them by tomorrow.

If enough support can be garnered for a Feysal lynch today, I'll be on there.

Why? I have said I would commit suicide by claiming my name once I have enough points.

In other news, GreyICE is an idiot. No wait, that is not news to anyone, is it? The funny thing about his case on me is that he has contradicted it himself, and is too stupid to see it. I expect he is too stupid to understand it either, even if I were to explain it. Anyone else is free to ask.

As for Bunnylover and Bowser, has it not been accepted long ago that they are town?

[Feysal]

Yes, but bowser is undead /drool

Like I said, only if sgr flips scum.

Has it occurred to you that if Baby Spice is correct and SGRaaize is not the lich, the real lich is still out there? Maybe you and Baby Spice can team up against the lich and leave Bowser alone. That would serve both of your ends with minimal impact on the town.

Perhaps we should here how Feysal intends to achieve his 7 points he needs. I'm all for everyone, but the mafia, winning.

I've already explained this twice, for the first time when I claimed and the second in response to Gaggle. One more time.

I have currently at least three points. One for killing implosion, another for killing PeregrineV, and a third for hammering Vaya. Maybe a fourth if my attack hit Katy when she died, but the different kill flavor makes it doubtful.

I can get one point today by hammering whoever we decide to lynch.

I can use Temptation today. I have no control over the wish, but as long as it harms someone, I get five points.

I can attack someone tonight. If that someone dies, I get one point.

This would bring me to a total of ten points, just enough to win.

Also, Feysal. Is your killing ability a spell or an attack?

I have no killing ability. My only attack does six points of damage, which is either enough to kill, or not.

Temptation is my only spell-like ability. My other two actions are listed simply as abilities.

[Feysal]

For the Love of God.

Last night I went to sleep after reading GreyICE's post, I was too angry to reply to it. And now I see even more irrational nonsense from him, delivered with the customary arrogance, that makes me want to carve a chamber pot out of his skull.

So be it.

I will hold nothing back.

I had to sanitize part of this post after seeing Snow_Bunny's warning to GreyICE. I despise him, but tempting the wrath of the moderator does not appeal to me. I will post the uncensored version in my private QuickTopic with my other game notes.

If for some gawdawful reason we don't lynch Feysal, the only way I accept this is Feysal does me. Gaggle's hard to safely target now, but try doing an RBT to me, Feysal, I dare you. And if it doesn't happen geology phase? Entire party knows, can't deep six us all.

I'll wish for Feysal to die, obv.

Wait, what? Do I hear right? You want to have my wish?

You?

After all you've said and done to me, what makes you think you would deserve such a gift?

Gaggle dying is a matter of concern for me though. I only have one shot at winning this, and my only chance is to grant the wish to someone who does not die immediately. My preference would be Bunnylover, as closest to confirmed town after Gaggle. Maybe Baby Spice, to increase her chances of winning so we can all end this tomorrow. I could even consider an Adventurer, Gandalf or WrathChild or Vaya, but that would essentially waste the wish.

But GreyICE?

Not a chance in hell.

I'd sooner claim my name now and expose him for the idiot he is than let him have the pleasure of ending my life. I'm not even sure if I would get any points from that wish, and even if I did, GreyICE is the last player in this game I would give anything.

In other news, GreyICE is an idiot. No wait, that is not news to anyone, is it? The funny thing about his case on me is that he has contradicted it himself, and is too stupid to see it. I expect he is too stupid to understand it either, even if I were to explain it. Anyone else is free to ask.

I'm rather disappointed that no one asked. I wanted to show to everyone how GreyICE fails to understand his own case and contradicts it. Let's see how many quotes I need for this.

Today we lynch Surye. There are several good reasons why. One is that restricting SGRaaize obviously did not prevent SpyreX from dying or

Gaggle getting injured

.

And even now, the question of who injured Gaggle remains unanswered.

The question of who managed to kill RBT and injure Gaggle during the combined twilight and night phase that passes before we get to see the HP changes is indeed open, Feysal.

It is in the last post where GreyICE's logic falls flat on his back. He

recognizes

that the identity of who injured Gaggle is unknown, but fails to understand the relevance of this fact. SGRaaize and me were restricted by GreyICE himself, and he apparently knows he was successful. We did not injure Gaggle, so who did?

But yeah, we have no idea who hit gaggle.

Gandalf says it was not the Adventurers who injured Gaggle. I believe him. As I said before.

Oh, but did Gaggle receive damage during the twilight or the night phase? I asked this question before, but later realized that Gaggle had said which it was when he said he had been injured in the first place.

I was hit by 12 points of damage

last night

, not sure

why

it's not showing up in the votecount though.

So there you have it. Gaggle was injured during the night, and not by me or SGRaaize. Clearly there must be someone other than us who is responsible... for example Surye?

Feysal tried to lynch Surye for mechanical reasons when there are NO MECHANICAL REASONS if we killed SpyreX.

Yes there is, Gaggle was also injured. The very person GreyICE is trying to sell his nonsense to.

Oh, and by the way, GreyICE is completely wrong if he thinks I suspect Surye only for mechanical reasons. Here are my reasons for suspecting Surye.

Now, can we get down to business and lynch Surye? I am confident that he actually is scum, and that SpyreX was making a fool of himself by defending two scum players yesterday. The case remains the same as it was then, the Amished tell combined with being absolutely useless even while he still was in the game. And the fact that LMP gave me a town read for a very weak reason, as if he feared retribution from me.

We have three unconfirmed players in game, those being SGRaaize, inHimshallibe and Surye. There must be scum among them, but there must be town also. Surye is my best bet for scum. For additional evidence, look at the vote count at the end of day two, the day we could not unvote. That day some players made themselves conspicuous by being off the Surye wagon, resulting in a no lynch. SGRaaize was one, but he voted Vaya before anyone had voted Surye, so he gets a pass. Both inHim and Zdenek however wasted their votes, on Gandalf and Bunnylover, while the Surye wagon was already happening. Why would they do that? I think that they were purposely dividing votes in an effort to cause a no lynch. If Surye was town, I bet that Zdenek would have voted him.

That was a lot of quotes. But I have one more. Now GreyICE seems to have decided, apparently out of nowhere, that Baby Spice is also scum. Ridiculous. I need to put him into his place.

Adventurers, want to win?

Vote Baby Spice with me, and tomorrow scum plus you will outnumber the town, and we'll be able to co-ordinate for a joint win.

So, GreyICE, explain this again. Gaggle is injured, you don't know who did it, and the people you suspect include two you personally ensured could have nothing to do with it, and one who Zdenek wanted to lynch when he tried to deal with you, obviously because he thought she was the serial killer?

You just flunked Mafia 101. Shut up and go sit in the corner before you embarrass yourself any further.

[Feysal]

Feysal, gaggle easily could have took the damage in twilight. I don't believe you're told how much damage you have taken until the end of the night regardless of when it was taken.

I'm not so sure about that. It would make sense to me that players are told if they receive damage during twilight, even if the rest of the town is not, since they may be able to do something about it during the night. Since neither of us or any of the other Adventurers seems to have ever taken damage, we don't really know though. Gaggle himself may.

@Gaggle

: Can you confirm whether you took damage during the twilight or the night phase?

1) why do they believe Feysal's claim, given everything he's posted, and all the ways he's shown he's mafia?

I have shown no such thing. Instead I have shown your points to be logically unsound, and given multiple reasons why I am what I have claimed, which you either don't see or refuse to see.

2) If you are not voting Feysal, why do you believe that SGRaaize is so blitheringly, mind numbingly stupid that he forgot that RiceBallTail was

CONFIRMED WIGHT BY WAY OF DYING DAY 1?

He claimed scum when he claimed to use a damaging ability to confirm otherwise, why do you believe ANYTHING DIFFERENT?

From the context it was clear that SGRaaize was concerned about Riceballtail having had his role changed when he was revived. He had forgotten it was Katy who revived him, which is understandable given how long the game has been. Not so long ago people were still asking who had brought Bowser into the game.

3) How many times does Feysal have to hit the post reply button before an obvious lie becomes truth?
- Feysal claimed that he knew AP killed SpyreX from the start

I did not.

And yet I did suspect you.

Not immediately of course

, but the more you kept avoiding the topic like a hot potato the more suspicious you became. And to think that you thought you were torturing me while you were busy exposing yourself.

- Feysal attempted to lynch Surye because he was not blocked, and SpyreX died

I did not. I wanted to lynch Surye for reasons given in posts #2515 and #2539. I did not even know whether Surye had been restricted by you at the time, you did not reveal that until post #2549. And even after that there was no reason not to suspect Surye, because Gaggle had also been injured by an unknown attacker.

- Feysal claims to be helping the town

This is true.

Which of these are untrue? Is it possible that all three are true? If so, how?

The first two statements are not true, as proven by quotes. Only the third statement is true.

If you don't answer these, label yourself a

failure of a human being

. Feysal and SGR exempted of course, claimed scum claimed.

I will remember you said this.

As for the wish, Feysal, I'll roleblock you if you target anyone other than me. Done, and done.

Not going to happen. Even if you were not acting like a jerk, you said you would use the wish for a purpose which may cause my loss. There is no way I'm ever going to give you the wish now.

This arguing is pointless, and not advancing the game. I would prefer Surye to be lynched because I'm not sure if I can kill him for the point I need, and Gandalf would prefer SGRaaize so that his and Vaya's points could not be messed with by a roleblocker. We don't even disagree that both need to die, only on the method and order. Very well, I can compromise. I propose the following plan of action.

Today we lynch SGRaaize. I will deliver the hammer vote. If he is town I will be sorry, but I can live with that.

If SGRaaize is revealed as town when twilight begins, I will have to assume that he was the lich, and that Baby Spice will leave the game as twilight ends. Naturally this means I cannot grant her a wish in that case, and I am willing to grant it to an Adventurer instead.

If SGRaaize is revealed as scum, I will grant the wish to Baby Spice, to be used to achieve her win condition by tomorrow.

I ask that Surye not be harmed until the night. During the night though everyone is welcome to assist me in killing him.

As for inHim, I leave his fate for you to decide. Now it seems that most believe him to be town, and I myself have been leaning that way for most of the game. If anyone wants to kill him just to make sure, that is their choice. I will not touch him.

I can see no better plan to ensure that we can all end this game tomorrow in a shared victory of town and third parties.

Any comments, or can we get to business?

[Feysal]

Vote: SGRaaize

That should be the hammer and my fourth point. I have no time for a longer post, but there is little to say anyway while we wait for twilight to begin.

[Feysal]

Looks like SGRaaize was much bolder scum than I gave him credit for. Did not help him in the end though.

well feysal is being my GENIE tonight. he's already said he was happy getting lynched tomorrow right? no problem then!

Sorry to say it, but it may be for the best that I don't grant the wish to you. You were my preference over SpyreX partly because he was wounded and you were not, thus I had more faith in you surviving until today. Now that you are wounded, if I were to grant you the wish, it could paint a huge target on you and result in your death before you ever got to speak your wish. If I grant the wish to Baby Spice, she will use it to try and achieve her win condition, so we could all finish this tomorrow.

I don't think I said I'd be fine with being lynched tomorrow. I said I would claim my name and die as a result, so you won't even need to lynch me. That remains my plan if I survive the night.

everyone should drop their items so i can go around and collect the fucking things like a magpie. i when I collect 5 items.

This is impossible. You can only pick up one item every 24 real time hours, and there is not enough time left.

Feysal, you don't be submitting something to AGOG this phase, you don't be submitting it at all. I be chargin my post restrictions...

Before this you said I should not grant the wish to Gaggle since he was too easy to kill. That is still true, and for that reason I would prefer not to.

Then I'll probably end up smacking him tonight. I said I don't think he pulled a gambit, but it's still in the air. Or I can just remove him tonight.

I don't know if you're bluffing about being able to remove me from the game, but I don't object to the idea as long as you do it during the night phase. That is when the wish will be made and I will make my last attack, so I would not mind leaving the game that same phase. I think that it would be more useful if you could assist me and Gandalf in attacking Surye though. I will be out of the game tomorrow anyway.

[Feysal]

I'm not dying. I'll be around for tomorrow. It's guaranteed via what Gandalf gave me.

Guaranteed you say? Then I have nothing against giving the wish to you.

[Feysal]

Yeah don't kill Feysal with it. Like Baby just said, it'd be a waste since he's already offering himself up tomorrow. And Feysal's claimed that he doesn't think he'll get points for his own death anyway, so you're kinda just being a jerk if you kill him and he turns out to be telling the truth.

I don't know if I would gain any points if the wish was used to cause my own death. That would depend on how you interpret the original wording of the ability. I'd rather not risk it of course, and using it on me would be a waste anyway.

And you shouldn't kill Surye with the wish either, just because both Feysal and the Adventurers are probably going to be killing him tonight, and the kill would stop us from getting points from the kill, with kills resolving before damage.

I guess I should clarify this. Temptation is a miscellaneous ability, and thus the QuickTopic is opened after all other actions have been resolved. I don't know when the wish itself would be resolved, but my guess is that it would depend on the wish and how it was worded. The wish does not need to be used to kill someone either. When I paraphrased the ability in my claim, I said I would receive five points if it was used to harm or kill another player. Damaging another player also counts, so the wish could be used to, for example, deal ten points of damage to Surye without it screwing up me or Gandalf getting points.

[Feysal]

You CLEARLY stated that if someone dies as a result of this ability you gain 5 points, and that you can win when dead.

Correct on the second part, wrong on the first. I can win when dead, but I never said that that someone would need to die.

Temptation

Opens a QuickTopic for the phase after the ability is used. My identity would not be revealed, but I would be obligated to say that I can grant one wish to the player I talk to. The wish can be anything in theory, as long as Snow_Bunny approves it. However, only some wishes will actually work, those being the ones I get points from. I get three points if the player wishes for an item, and I get five points

if the player wishes to harm or kill another player

. If the wish is anything else, the wish is not granted and the wisher takes 4 HP of damage. When the phase ends, the QuickTopic is closed, whether a wish was made or not. I can only persuade the player to make a certain wish, but I cannot force anything. One shot.

THERE IS NO INTERPRETATION.

Of course there is. You act as if I would win as long as someone, anyone, dies from the wish, but that is not what the ability description says. I get five points if the wish is used to harm

another player

. Another player besides who? Me, the wisher, or both? According to my interpretation it is both, and I would not get anything if the wish was used to kill me.

Unless you want to start rapidly modifying your claim, of course.

I grow tired of your insinuations. I have never modified my claim, instead this is the third time you tried to claim I had said something other than what I did.

It's always so amazing how the flailing and weaseling starts when the dying time comes in the scum fakeclaims, isn't it?

You might consider waiting until the dying time before opening your mouth. I have repeatedly said I have no problem with dying

tomorrow

. Today is another matter, as I need the day and night phases to get my final points.

[Feysal]

FEYSAL

Dear lord, now he's not even sure the ability will work on him.

Who me? I did not even say that, Gaggle did, and I think he is mistaken about what I said in post #2633.

I have no reason to believe the wish could not be used against me, and I have never indicated otherwise.

[Feysal]

*blink*

I survived? I won?

And

the town won? I thought this was impossible!

My moment was stolen from me. Whatever, I'm doing this anyway.

HEAR MY WORDS AND KNOW THEM TO BE TRUE!

I AM FEYSAL THE GLABREZU, DEMONIC SERIAL KILLER BY NATURE, ALLY OF THE TOWN BY CHOICE.

COME, DEATH, AND CARRY ME TO THE GLORY OF VICTORY!

Yes, I totally had that pre-written. I was going to nameclaim in my first post of the day. But surviving to win is even better.

Fun fact: I have never before won a game on mafiascum.net. Do you know anyone else whose first victory was as a serial killer?

QuickTopic links: my personal notes, and the wish QuickTopic with Gaggle.

There was only one moment when I consciously acted in my own interest instead of that of the town, that being when I attacked implosion instead of Zdenek, who I suspected more. Still, I feel confident in saying that I was more town than many actual town, and for a serial killer that is saying something. I was wrong about SGRaaize and inHim in the end, but that mattered little. They were doomed to die anyway due to process of elimination. Emphasis on the elimination, since we ended up killing everyone who was not confirmed. Surye being the lich surprises me. I wondered why SGRaaize had not been counterclaimed, and that was part of why I trusted him, but it never occurred to me that it was because the true lich had flaked.

[Feysal]

Also, huh... Why did GreyIce get modkilled?

From reading the Adventurer QuickTopic, it was because Vaya found out I was right about the Adventurers being a threat to the town, and GreyICE blew up as a result. I did try to tell him to ask Snow_Bunny about that, I'm glad that at least one Adventurer did.

[Feysal]

BTW SNOWBUNNY, HOW MANY POINTS DID ICEYCUPCAKE MANAGE TO GET?

According to the spreadsheet, 2. You were voted 19 times during the game, each player counted once each day. Only two more votes would've earned you yet another point.

Looks like I got more points from kills than I expected. I did hope that I had gotten points for CMAR and Katy, but I could not count on it. On the other hand, I only got one point for a hammer vote, meaning the Vaya hammer apparently did not count, since he did not die.

What was the deal with the kill flavors? I had an alternate theory that the number of pieces people were torn into indicated the number of people or factions involved in the deaths, but that does not seem to have been correct either.

[Feysal]

CHESSKID

CHESSKID

[Feysal]

Also if anyone can give me a points breakdown of each member of the Adventure Party, it'd be much appreciated.

Vaya: 3 points (lynched Riceballtail, killed SpyreX and Surye)
Gandalf: 1 point (killed Surye)
GreyICE: 2 points (19 votes, 1 point for 7)
WrathChild: 2 points (survived)

[Feysal]

I honestly don't know where you got the idea that Vaya should get two points for each evil kill. His role PM, both the one posted in thread and in your QuickTopic, says he should get one point for killing an evil player. Not two.

Not that it matters, you exceeded your point requirement anyway.