Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Legacy (Game Over)

[mastin2]

Whoah. Cool.

VOTE: Khan Man.

Policy.

Anyway, I'm typing this up in the slim chance I'm not NK'd after having replaced in. (I have, like, an 80% death rate for this kind of situation. )

Nero:

You've offered to hydra with me before, so why don't we effectively hydra in this game? I'm town, I think you're town, so tell me who's scum and who's town, so I can tell the town why.

Didn't really do much reading, just enough to get the above read, since Nero's who I see as the strongest scumhunter in this game, and I needed to see him being town.

/going to make a QT. Since I slacked off on reading overnight (for obvious reasons), I need to do so.

[mastin2]

Ah, Mastin, my replacement buddy! How are things?

Pretty good, actually. I was pleasantly surprised to learn I wasn't dead, but hey, the scum are going to wish I was.

Anyway, I'd love to hear your reads as well. You're not as strong a scumhunter to me as Nero is, but I still respect you, and would love to know who you think is scum and why.

Like, say, Yates. Is he scum? His post looks like scum.

I'd also love reads from Benmage and Tammy. I consider Nero a stronger scumhunter than them, but I still think they're some of the strongest players in this game. Between the four of you (Nero, AP, Benmage, and Tammy), you can give me a great head-start on the game.

[mastin2]

You scum this game?

If I were, I wouldn't have expected to be dead by morning, now, would I?

Melmond - 11 (Tammy,

zabriel

, Kublai Khan, Nero Cain, BloodCovenant, Benmage,

Yates

, AngryPigeon,

snifit, rapidcanyon

, mykonian)

The bolded catch my eye as looking like scum by gut, and the italicised look like potential candidates. I read the first few pages, so I know BC's town, I've said Nero's town, and I actually think Khan's town as well. I have nothing on Tammy or Benmage, but regardless of their alignment, their feedback is valuable to me. Same for AP. And I'll admit a strong unfamiliarity with myk, but just from Yates, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for the moment.

Unvote,
Vote: Yates.

[mastin2]

Derp. Got jason and BC mixed up. I forget what (if any) read I had on BC. Mighta still been town, but I'd need a good solid readthrough of the game to see for sure.

Since I'm on a desktop, I need to switch to my laptop; be back soon.

[mastin2]

Hmm, fair 'nuff. Makes Zoro look town as well, by the way.

Unvote,
Vote: Zabriel.

[mastin2]

Vote: Jason

Overreaction to Nero, terrible reaction to Zoro.

Eh, replace Zoro with whoever he voted for claiming Snake. Acosmist?

You think AV-as-scum would confuse his scumbuddy with the actually-claimed PGO?

[mastin2]

As for zabriel, it's entirely gut. Like I said, I haven't read the game, yet. Right now, I've got three in limbo (AP, Benmage, and Tammy) who I'm purposefully holding back on getting a read on for the moment, and six names to look at:

3. zabriel
5. Kise
8. PeregrineV
15. ThAdmiral
17. snifit
20. rapidcanyon

The others I see as town. Amrun and BC both had isos which looked town to me, hence why I eliminated them.

Ultimately, the goal should be to get down to 4-5 names, and right now, it's six-plus-three. (Consider limbo to be null.)

[mastin2]

That could easily be a 'slip'

Could be? Yes, it could. Actually is? I sincerely doubt it. Occam's razor suggests he simply got two people mixed up, and simple logic dictates it's doubtful he mixed up a scumbuddy with someone who's not a scumbuddy.

Anyway, right now if you couldn't tell, I'm skimming isos to get a better hold of the game.

[mastin2]

By the way, preliminary scumteam of Kise, Snifit, Zabriel, with one of/both of Benmage/RC (depending on 4/5 scum) is what I've got so far. Admittedly, the only one of 'em I've iso'd is Kise (and he's only mildly scummy), with the rest by PoE and sheeping Nero's last scum list, as far as I could tell.

Also, kinda sorta think AP's outta limbo and into town, 'cause I did an iso of IaI. Wasn't much, but what little was there looked town, which'd make AP in that same slot town.

[mastin2]

But seriously, why did you list Yates as possible scum, VOTE HIM, and then not include him in your formal scum list and then unvote him.

Because my Yates scumread was entirely off of his question to myk, and I was not only given a reason that wasn't scummy, but also given a strong reason to reverse my read--AV's vote on him.

Unvote,
VOTE: Snifit.

Further sheeping of Nero.

[mastin2]

By gods, RC's iso is horribad. How's he gotten away with it?

Also, it makes AP town; look at how RC's pushing AP-as-scum and tell me that's scumbuddy interactions.

[mastin2]

I'm conflicted on rapidcanyon. I'm getting scumvibes I can't put my finger on but his #160 is a solid post, trying to get into other players' heads. I guess I have to say town but I'll be looking for more posts from him. Interesting that he threw a vote in the same direction I did, and as a bonus he could even elaborate what bothered him about Shahrizai. Neat! Yeah town for now.

Can't get much more obvious than this that these two are scumbuddies.

[mastin2]

Nero, yes.

Also,

People suspicious of me for my Cyber vote yesterday are lazy. Do you honestly think that was a serious vote?

It's a very bad idea to lie when there's someone around reading that specific section of the game.

Cyber's ISO...really? It's all promises to catch up and whining that people shouldn't be voting for him. Good Lord.

Ugh. My desire to purge Cyber out of the game is strong but my read on Melmond is stronger.

What in here isn't serious about the Cyber vote?

Haven't had time to review Cybertronix and Melmond but I see Cyber's wagon is smaller so
Vote: Cybertronix

What in here isn't serious?

It certainly sounds that way to me.

[mastin2]

tl;dr, lynch all liars--snifit's scum.
You could also argue lynch all lurkers; he has the lowest post count of living players, other than myk and myself, who're both replacements. He's been here the whole game.

[mastin2]

Not sure what you're getting at.

You were justifying your Cyber vote.

You were giving reasons for the vote.

And those reasons sounded plenty serious to me.

You're claiming they weren't. You're claiming your vote wasn't serious, but yet your words and need to justify having voted Cyber suggested it was. Bluntly, you've been caught in a lie.

Now die.

[mastin2]

Cybertronix keeps showing up to promise more content later and getting involved in current (mostly useless) discussion. Pretty safe activity for scum.

Calling Cyber scum.

Getting a town vibe from BloodCovenant's most recent posting, so I might to rethink my vote. Not sure if I want Cyber or Melmond instead.

Calling Cyber/Mel scum.

Haven't had time to review Cybertronix and Melmond but I see Cyber's wagon is smaller so

Vote: Cybertronix

Votes Cyber.

The jester stuff is null, but at least he prefers Cyber to AP.

Cyber's ISO...really? It's all promises to catch up and whining that people shouldn't be voting for him. Good Lord.

Ugh. My desire to purge Cyber out of the game is strong but my read on Melmond is stronger.

Pushing a Cyber lynch (better than AP), says Cyber's iso is junk, says he wants Cyber dead.

And snifit's claiming the vote on him wasn't serious. It was plenty serious. Both before, and after, he was pushing it.

Lynch. All. Liars.

[mastin2]

I love how Mastin is ignoring RC's existence now that he has votes.

It's not that I'm ignoring RC. He's still almost certainly scum.

It's just that snifit

is

scum. He's caught in a lie, but beyond that, he's also been lurking the whole game, and if that wasn't enough, his content is junk and he's contributed virtually nothing of use.

[mastin2]

Do you honestly think that was a serious vote?

I knew I wanted to vote Cyber or Melmond. Just had to check which one I wanted to vote more.

These two statements are mutually exclusive.

He can't have wanted to vote Cyber/Mel, checking to see which he wanted to vote more, and followed it through with a vote, and have it not have been serious. The vote was premeditated, planned out in advance. I've quoted the evidence showing his thoughts before AND after the vote that confirm he meant it at the time.

And yet, now he's trying to claim that it wasn't serious?

Again,

SNIFIT IS

CAUGHT IN A

LIE

. WE'RE LYNCHING THIS BASTARD TODAY.

[mastin2]

AP, aside from gambits, what's the town motivation for lying?

...Yeah, I'm coming up empty.

AP, what's the scum motivation for lying?

...Do I need to repeat that statement for you?

There's a reason LAL is enforced.

And you're also ignoring the other pieces of the case.
Snifit's not just scum because he's caught in a lie. His iso is crap, his content is junk, he's been lurking the entire game, and his stances have been highly scumtastic, with opportunism abounding. You're ignoring that part of the case.

[mastin2]

Ok, if Snifit's lack of content is scummy, why is Amrun town?

Look at the difference.
Amrun was struggling just to keep in the game, and ultimately failed to do so. She was trying, and failing, to keep up. However, despite her failing efforts, she tried to contribute original thoughts to the game. I liked her push on zabriel, for instance.

snifit's lack of content is halfhearted. He was keeping up, but not trying to put any real effort into the game. In his lackluster content, his posts were highly unoriginal and contributed nothing really unique, with what little content he has being carefully worded and allowing him to back out if need be.

To summarize, it's tone and effort/intent/motive/general mindset. Amrun's posts were those of a stressed townie, snifit's have been that of a relaxed scum.

And, yes, there's motive as scum to lie. It's a

fundamental part of being scum

--to deceive the town, to mislead and misguide them by manipulation and distortion of the facts.

[mastin2]

And, again, AP, I'm not ignoring RC. I think RC's scum. However, it is possible (no matter how unlikely) that he's town.

Snifit, on the other hand, can only be scum.

[mastin2]

Myk, I think you're misreading what I'm saying.

I'm not saying he shifted a non-serious vote into a serious vote.

I'm saying he's lying about it ever having been not serious. The evidence is right there, in his iso. Both before, where he lays out Cyber-suspicion, and after, where he justifies his cyber-suspicion. He provided reasons before the vote. He provided reasons during the vote. He provided reasons after the vote. That's plenty serious.

[mastin2]

Myk, you know me better than that.

I don't BS as scum when it comes to suspects. (Maybe, say, when trying to come up with an explanation of why my predecessor acted the way they did, sure; I'll BS that. But suspects? Never; I believe every word, else I'd not say it.)

I really fail to see how you can't see the point about snifit. He's claimed his vote wasn't serious. All evidence points to it having been serious. His posts before suggested it would be serious. His posts after support it having been serious. That's not him having turned something non-serious into serious, that's him having always been serious with the vote, and yet, he claims otherwise. Hence, the lie. (Or backtrack, if you'd prefer--see below.)

And no comment on Nero?

[mastin2]

AP, I have had more against snifit.

Spoiler: Snifit Stuff

Melmond - 11 (Tammy,

zabriel

, Kublai Khan, Nero Cain, BloodCovenant, Benmage,

Yates

, AngryPigeon,

snifit

, rapidcanyon

, mykonian)

The bolded catch my eye as looking like scum by gut, and the italicised look like potential candidates.

Yes, he was only a potential candidate at the time, but his position and timing on the wagon is highly suspect.

By the way, preliminary scumteam of Kise, Snifit, Zabriel, with one of/both of Benmage/RC (depending on 4/5 scum) is what I've got so far, by PoE and sheeping Nero.

I'm conflicted on rapidcanyon. I'm getting scumvibes I can't put my finger on but his #160 is a solid post, trying to get into other players' heads. I guess I have to say town but I'll be looking for more posts from him. Interesting that he threw a vote in the same direction I did, and as a bonus he could even elaborate what bothered him about Shahrizai. Neat! Yeah town for now.

Can't get much more obvious than this that these two are scumbuddies.

You could also argue lynch all lurkers; snifit has the lowest post count of living players, other than myk and myself, who're both replacements. He's been here the whole game.

He's caught in a lie, but beyond that,

he's also been lurking the whole game

, and if that wasn't enough,

his content is junk

and he's

contributed virtually nothing of use

.

Which I go on to emphasize again...

Snifit's not just scum because he's caught in a lie. His iso is crap, his content is junk, he's been lurking the entire game, and his stances have been highly scumtastic, with opportunism abounding. You're ignoring that part of the case.

Admittedly, this is more of a "tell, not show" case, when one of the basis for being a good writer is "show, don't tell".
So while I don't go into great detail, I do elaborate, via a comparison to Amrun.

Ok, if Snifit's lack of content is scummy, why is Amrun town?

Look at the difference.
Amrun was struggling just to keep in the game, and ultimately failed to do so. She was trying, and failing, to keep up. However, despite her failing efforts, she tried to contribute original thoughts to the game. I liked her push on zabriel, for instance.

snifit's lack of content is halfhearted. He was keeping up, but not trying to put any real effort into the game. In his lackluster content, his posts were highly unoriginal and contributed nothing really unique, with what little content he has being carefully worded and allowing him to back out if need be.

To summarize, it's tone and

effort

/intent/motive/

general mindset

. Amrun's posts were those of a stressed townie, snifit's have been that of a relaxed scum.

The only way my case could be stronger is if I backed it up with quotes--yet snifit's iso is so short that you can do it yourself and see most of these points in crystal clarity.

Look at snifit now, for instance. He's not defended himself. He's not really posted at all. It's been others coming to his defense--he's letting others do his work for him. That kind of lurking, that kind of strategic inactivity, is the trademark of scum.

(That said, two others on my scum-list voting snifit does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling. )

[mastin2]

If Snifit flips town (mystically by some form of voodoo magic) what would your reads on Mastin, me and RC be?

I can answer this, minus the part on me. If for some reason snifit were town, you'd go from being slightly-town to super-mega-town.

RC would go from being probably-scum into almost-certainly-scum as well, and my reads on both zabriel and Kise would be reinforced, thanks to their having jumped on the snifit wagon.

I'm really weirded out that you're calling me a town-read and overall ignoring me.

Well, your iso looked pretty town, Nero had you as town, and your iso kinda reminded me of that Little Italy game you were in recently where you got mislynched. (Admittedly, I only skimmed that game, yet the similarity was there.) That said, I honestly have no way to gauge your abilities as town. I respect you as a player, but I don't have any reason to respect you as a scumhunter, if that makes sense.

It feels like a attempt to railroad a lynch.

Blatantly so. I'm going to force the snifit lynch through. If he flips scum, great; I have reassurance that I'm at least partially on the right track. If he flips town, I get mislynched on day three or four and the scum win because of town idiocy. (/1377 ref)

[mastin2]

SCREW IT.

Unvote,
Vote:

...I dunno.

Vote: Kise.

One scumread, fine. Two scumreads, lil' bit concerning. Three scumreads, either they're hardcore bussing, or I've gone horribly, horribly wrong.

[mastin2]

No interest in whether Nero is town or not, though?

The first thing I did when I offered to replace was do a Nero iso. I knew he was town instantly just from skimming.

more odd that he thinks Nero is a good scumhunter.

The reason Nero offered to hydra with me before is that his scumdar's better than mine, but his power of persuasion is weaker than mine. Nero's the best person in this playerlist at catching scum; I've yet to see him in a game where this hasn't proven true. Unfortunately, he's one of the weaker players when it comes to convincing others he's right. So in that regard, and in that regard only, is he not a good scumhunter.

(STOP NINJA'ING ME, PEOPLE!)

[mastin2]

Also, should be noted that I'm well aware that--despite his skill--Nero's reads are not a holy bible of scumhunting. His reads are a very good starting point, but they lack refinement. This is pretty evident in my reads already, in that while my reads started as sheeping him, I'm forming my own conclusions based off of what I'm reading. (For instance, he has AP as a suspect; AP's town. He has PV as town; I'm considering taking a look at him for possible scum.)

[mastin2]

Also, add ThAd to the list of "needs-a-look".

---

Benmage, where am I on that list?

[mastin2]

Might as well make this public:
3. zabriel
5. Kise
8. PeregrineV
13. Benmage
15. ThAdmiral
20. rapidcanyon

Suspect list, with three names in null--snifit (ambivalent-type; leaning town), Tammy (limbo-type), and pidgey (replacement dissonance-type).

[mastin2]

And uhm, I think I'd prefer snifit over tammy.

You have interest in a snifit lynch? Your words say otherwise.
(Yes, I know, comparing snifit to tammy != preferring snifit as a lynch, but it implies as much when you don't offer alternatives to both--such as, say, Kise, RC, Zab...*)

*In a sentence, myk: who

would

you prefer to lynch?

---

Also, before I forget:

Mod:

Note that I'm never available Sundays thanks to Round Dancing, and while I can theoretically make time for ms.net on Saturday, it's tedious for me to do so, and I prefer not to, especially with my Focused Playing theory. (See the MD thread.) And if that wasn't enough, I know for a fact that this weekend will be MUCH busier than normal, so even if I wanted to, it'd me far more difficult than most weeks, due to how much I have to do tomorrow.

tl;dr,

V/LA over the weekend.

Sorry. Shouldn't be much of a problem, though.

[mastin2]

And I'm not getting lynched. Nightkilled, sure, lynched, never.

But even if a lynch on me were possible, that'd still just be one of his suspects--in a game of this size, there's going to be 4-5 scum, so he should have 3-4 suspects other than myself.

[mastin2]

Well, nobody knows me better than me, so if you told me, I could tell you if you're right or wrong.

[mastin2]

Well, if you're feeling deja vu, (as much as I'd love to claim it'd make me town) it's probably a sign that whatever you're thinking of is null.

[mastin2]

All it took was snif cursing to get him to back off

False. I unvoted because Benmage voted. Snifit ninja'd me when I was typing my post; I didn't even read it 'til after I re-hit submit.

---

pidgey/mastin/zabriel/zoroaster/kise/nero/acosmist

Myk, bluntly, I'm town.
Zoro's town thanks to AV.
Aco's town.
Nero's town.

That leaves pidgey, zab, and kise in your suspect list. Kise is being wagoned, the others aren't.
[hr90[/hr]

While mastin is playing confidently, he's at the same time planning how to go on in the next days.

Nah. My plan's to get NK'd.
And as you yourself know, I never intend to outlive my scumbuddies, anyway. I have a 0% winrate as last-remaining-scum.
But you're right on one point--Tammy's meta reason for clearing me isn't very good. In multiscum games, my scumplay is actually at its closest to my townplay as it can be.

/caught up. The fact that most of my scumreads have scumreads on the other scumreads is really unnerving me, so I guess I need to read the game.

[mastin2]

I was catchin up to this game in the weekend but some shit came up and i couldnt finish, but i will today at night.

Im pretty confident just from a skim that thead looks town, at least. AP also looks like id imagine him to be as town. The rest ill talk about when im done YEAAAAAH

Why only those two?

[mastin2]

Can do.

Why don't you have any more reads than those two?
If you do, why are you waiting until you've read everything to post them? Why not post what you've got, no matter how bad they may seem?
Why don't you have a vote?

What about this game is making it hard to get into?

I mean, I replaced in at the same time as you, slacked off on reading overnight, and yet STILL got going fairly good despite not having read most of d1.
...Speaking of which, why didn't you read overnight? I mean, *I* didn't because I have an 80% deathrate for this kind of situation. I can't imagine you have that excuse. You shouldn't have slacked off, but you're implying you did.

[mastin2]

Also, why is it taking so long for you to respond to the above? You're still listed as being online, so you shoulda seen them by now.

[mastin2]

And I've been scum in 8/9 games with mastin2.

Pretty sure that we haven't had nine previous games together. Maybe nine total, including this one, but I seem to recall in SG-1 that I did the numbers and it was 6/6, maybe 7/7. Add in the next game, and that's either 6/7 or 7/8. Not 8/9.

Need to double-check to make sure, but this seems like a scumslip.

[mastin2]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?k ... mit=Search

742, Mafia 96, Desert Mafia, Brightest Day, Stargate, and Playground, that I can find.
/gotta go. Be back later.

[mastin2]

Unofficial Votecount:

Kise - 4 (Kublai Khan, mastin2, AngryPidgeon, jasonT1981)
snifit - 2 (Nero Cain, Kise)
Kublai Khan - 2 (Yates, snifit)
Benmage - 3 (Acosmist, zabriel, pidgey)
Acosmist - 1 (mykonian)
Tammy - 2 (Benmage, ThAdmiral)

Not voting - 5 (BloodCovenant, PeregrineV, Zoroaster, Tammy, rapidcanyon)

(myk changed from mastin2 to zabriel to aco
ThAd switched off PV onto Tammy
BC and RC are being replaced.)

---

Pretty sure Kise wagon is good.

[mastin2]

Also, people've probably guessed, am a bit busy at the moment. Am trying to play, but am juggling three or four things at once; kinda hard to strike that balance. Extra difficult thanks to not getting much sleep last night and what little I did get not being restful. So in a word, at the moment, my head's not much in the game. Thinking two scum not voting, by the way, and remaining 2-3 scattered throughout the votecounts. 1-2 of them in the three (2) wagons (guess is on Kise and one of--but not both of--Benmage and ThAd), with the remaining scum on Benmage. Don't think it's a scumdriven wagon, but if Benmage is town, it has one scum on it.

Basically, looking at RC and one of PV/Tammy, one of Benmage/ThAd, Kise, and one of Zabriel/pidgey as a scumteam, off of the vc itself. No clue how well this stacks up against interactions with these individuals, though. Like I said before, lots of names in there seem to be suspicious of a lot of other names in said list, and I haven't crossreferenced things yet. Need to do that when I'm feeling a little more coherent.

Still, though, liking Kise-as-scum more than most. Who'd be the scum on the wagon? Not me, not AP, not jason, and I'm thinkin not Khan.
If there's no scum on the wagon, why aren't they interested in voting him?

See also 1377 for how relevant this is; most of the counterwagons right now feel as if they're meant to disintegrate the Kise wagon, just as in 1377 with the falling wagons on fitz and especially UN.

[mastin2]

Busy with LIFE, not with games. As in, by tomorrow, will be fine. It's too short to declare a V/LA, since it's partially weekend-catchup (thanks to me taking the weekend off of mafia) combined with lack of sleep, and at most would be, like, 16 hours of "limited" access. (As you can tell, I'm still posting, it's just that the amount of thinking in each post is a lot less than normal, wjhich really says something. ) I know my game limit very well, and you're correct that I'm at it, but incorrect that I'm in any regards at less capacity than normal to play in this game.

It's just that TODAY, my posts are sub-par and not up to my normal capacity, since TODAY, I have a lot on m plate, combined with the lack of sleep. Hence, the slight incoherence. If you checked, you'd see this is the only game I'm in which is in day; I'm not juggling multiple games at all. I'm juggling three or four things, with two or three of them being real-life and the last being this oen.

[mastin2]

Was mnre a aerning about me multitasking at the moment, meaning that my thoughts for the rest of today will be slomewjhat scattered. Hence, the need for the warning. My posts are always slightly incoherent, 'cause I'm Mastin and making sense is typically a scumtell. But right now, they're going to be more incoherent than normal, hence the explanation. Like I said, juggling weekend stuff. Means that while I can give thoughts as I have them, I don't have the time to check the facts and stuff 'tl tomorrow.

[mastin2]

I'll take an incoherent mastin over a 'quasi coherent one' ...

Mastin,

take a gander at the Tammy points. Look at even AP's statement that Tammys view on suspects and what I would say as scumhunting is altogether suspect. But she was relishing the idea to dismiss whatever reasoning I had for calling her scum. As in shes more interested in proving my points wrong, than actually scumhunting.

Thats a strong scumtell I've seen before (I forget if I saw MoI or Glork referencing it).. but yeah essentially just trying to find faults in other peoples arguments is an easier veil for scum to hide behind than to put fourth actual scumhunting(because theyre scum!)

This is actually exactly the kind of argument I needed to hear from ya, Benmage. It gets you almost entirely out of the suspect list (not *quite* ready, but definitely on the right track--will wait ;til tomorrow when I can do more research to confirm), and puts Tammy into the line of fire--she's been null, so I can easily buy her being scum. Will check.

Butyeah. Your scumtell looks good, as does the fact that Tammy's not acting quite like I've come to expect jher to as town.

[mastin2]

That said, Benmage, is there a reason that you think Kie is town?

If you think he's town, why do you think his nice juicy 4 wagon seemlingl has no scum on it? Or do you have a suspect on the wagon?

[mastin2]

That your meta on me's not valid. If for no other reason than because this bame's obviously not multiscum. And you hsave to remember, in the endgame, it really wasn't anything that I said which contributed to my lynch. It was my predecessor, along with Cooldog. I was playing that whole game to my town self (especially given my approach to d1), no more so than on the last day. I said it then, and I'll say it again, had Nacho's and my positions been reversed, him the scum and me the town, my endgame play woulda been pretty much identical. Maybe there'd have been a slgiht difference I would never be able to detect, but it'd be soo slight that it'd be inivisble.

And after that game, I went on vacation for a few months. And wjen I came back, I promised to turn a new leaf, anyway, meaning that meta really isn't that applicableto me yet. You can read the last day of 1377 to get an idea of why. (Search for spoiler tags--under one of them, I say a far more explitative "screw meta", and explain the concept there.) The fundamentsal of my play may be the same, but the specifics will be different. You saw me in GvE, CvL under specifics. So your meta reason for me being tonw is omvalid. Just like AP's meta on me, since his meta's only based on one game. It's a more recent game, and I'm town here as well, bit that doesn't mean his meta tell is actually balid.

Basically, nobody can use meta to think I'm town right now. Sure, by play they can, since it's quite obvious with my general mindset and all that that I'm town, but on meta, not really. Not off of resemblance to town game, not off of lack of resemblance to a scum game, least of all a multiscum game.

[mastin2]

(Was to tammy. Funny thing 'botu multitasking, it takes you longer than normal to type things, so when you hit submit... )

[mastin2]

Vote: Jason

Overreaction to Nero, terrible reaction to Zoro.

Eh, replace Zoro with whoever he voted for claiming Snake. Acosmist?

You think AV-as-scum would confuse his scumbuddy with the actually-claimed PGO?

[mastin2]

^Above was to answer PV's question. Should also point out this.

That could easily be a 'slip'

Could be? Yes, it could. Actually is? I sincerely doubt it. Occam's razor suggests he simply got two people mixed up, and simple logic dictates it's doubtful he mixed up a scumbuddy with someone who's not a scumbuddy.

[mastin2]

That said...

PeregrineV:

Mind explaining to me how, exactly, you missed both of those quotes, despite the fact that they're on the exact same page I express my Zoro townread the first time?

[mastin2]

Unvote,
VOTE: Tammy.

Benmage's case is mounting, Tammy's reactions are getting worse and worse, and she was never in a good place to start with. Let's apply more pressure.

(STOP NINJA'ING THE GUY WHO IS MULTITASKING. This whole page is new. )

[mastin2]

(STOP NINJA'ING THE GUY WHO IS MULTITASKING. This whole page is new. )

I didn't see the claim 'til after I'd posted this.

And thanks to Tammy's claim.
UNVOTE:

Now I'm leaving for today, and by tomorrow, I expect this to make sense.

[mastin2]

Benmage, you've claimed your role, but not your ability; we need to know just how the heck you have a guilty on the claimed dayvig.
Tammy, you've claimed your role, and are willing to prove it; do so.

Everyone, how do you feel about a pidgey vig?

[mastin2]

If Tammy's lying and is not the dayvig, the dayvig will shoot Tammy.
If Tammy's lying yet the dayvig was one-shot, then they should probably counterclaim, since Tammy's not getting lynched otherwise.
If Tammy's not lying, she is the dayvig and can prove it with a shot.

[mastin2]

Why not a kise vig?

'Cause I'm going for a Kise lynch.

VOTE: Kise.

I also refuse to believe any possibility other than "Tammy is a day-SK", since that's pretty much the only option which makes any sense with her play, her reactions, her actions, and Benmage's result. Right now, that means she's under our reigns. She needs to die the day before lylo, but other than that, well, her shots are pro-town. AV was scum, and ThAd was someone a good majority of the playerlist had become suspicious of. You can claim that was a bad shot all you'd like because it didn't hit scum, but the fact is, it was a good shot. ThAd was acting suspicious, ThAd had a lot of suspicion on him already, and if not for being shot, he had a significant risk of being mislynched today, so that shot was not a bad one.

So as long as her shots continue to be pro-town, I'm going to advocate us keeping her around. She gives us a second lynch in a day; you can't ask for much better than that.

Plus, the scum are either going to have to kill her, or let that second shot give the town a lot of extra power. In other words, she'll soak up the nightkill, or the scum are screwed.

AS IF THAT WASN'T ENOUGH, a Tammy wagon SCREAMS of being scumdriven, because of the above--the scum want her out of the game. If they can do so via lynch,

we're doing the work of the scum for them

.
Tammy's scum, sure, but she's not MAFIA-scum, and that's who we need to kill.

So lynch Kise.

[mastin2]

Basically, looking at RC and one of PV/Tammy, one of Benmage/ThAd, Kise, and one of Zabriel/pidgey as a scumteam, off of the vc itself.

With a slight update, this is now:
RC, PV, Kise, and one of Zabriel/pidgey as the scumteam, with Tammy as the day-SK.

I haven't done my homework, yet, but it looks good in my mind.

[mastin2]

Iso time.

I saw your vote was on Zab, but the post I questioned made it seem less like you believed he was scum and more like you believed he was a smart flip. Those are NOT the same things.

Know how I said one of pidgey/zab as scum?
This quote strongly makes me think that if pidgey's scum, zab is as well. This is a preeeetty heavy zab-defense from Amrun.
That said,

On another note, I totally didn't realize we had a scum daykill hahahahahha that's awesome.

Much as I doubt AV got a scumbuddy mixed up with the PGO, I hesitate to think Amrun would miss the fact that she's now down one scumbuddy.

---

Spoiler: Kise

Hmm...zabriel, melmond, Zor, KK & Tammy are on my list.

Mel's town, Zor's town, Tammy's third party (so not groupscum), and KK's prob-town. So if there's a scum in here, it pretty much has to be zabriel.

For the record, that entire post is pretty much junk, and with his PV interaction, it looks like Kise-PV is half the scumteam.

Rereading IAI's last two posts, I see he's caught up with the game but is only setting sights on zab. What makes my eyebrow raise is how he prefaces the vote park by saying he may switch after reading other isos. So, let's just imagine zab is town and continues to get votes... Wouldn't it be opportunistic for IAI (assuming scum) to go "naaaah ima stay on this wagon. will read other isos later" I don't want to say too much until he responds but it rubs me the wrong way that he asks Ben for 4 suspects when only listing zab as his suspect.

In fact, pretty sure this makes zabriel the third, 'cause Kise is heavily attacking IaI, who is attacking zabriel. (VROOM VROOM!) Despite the fact that Kise himself had expressed zabriel suspicion.

Other minimalists/lurkers are Shah, Amrun, Zoro and Cyber

This is myk and pidgey's slots, for the record. Again, seems like there'd be scum here. Also, look at later in that post: He hasn't forgotten about zabriel, he says, with null-leaning sucm.

Also, looking at how much Kise mentions PV, it's pretty obvious that Kise and PV are scum.

In general, Kise's iso looks incredibly faked to me. I don't really have a way to put that feeling into words, but his posting just seems, well, to quote Khan, "cheeky".

---

PV's iso is basically a whole lotta nothin'. There's some pretty blatant distancing from zabriel, and a lot of RC hate, but that's pretty much it. PV's been lurking pretty much the whole game, both actively (not much content) and passively (via not posting much, but I'm fairly certain that's a null-tell for him). His posts come across as forced, and there IS that whole Mel/ThAd=masons thingy.
He does make me second-guess RC-as-scum, though.

---

Spoiler: pidgey

Anyway, I dont want to be apathetic since i've played with most of the player list before but i swear i will become better.

I've yet to see this. pidgey's done pretty much a whole lotta nothing. There is this gem, though:

AP why are you voting Kise btw

Why does pidgey want to know AP's reasons for voting Kise, specifically? He has a townread on AP.
+buddypoints

Add to that, he's had some rather anti-town ideas. He wanted Tammy to out the message. The messenger can out them when they choose to do so, and it's unnecessary now thanks to Tammy's claim. There's also this,

Goddamit this game is really hard to read!

Which just screams excuse.
His switch from Benmage to Tammy seems a little forced, and he jumps at the chance to lynch the guilty. Why? Because from his perspective, he knows that Tammy's not groupscum, and that the scumteam can potentially take out Benmage without having lost a member. He then asks for proof of a softclaim from Tammy, which is horribad. He keeps on pushing for a lynch on the dayvig. (Day-SK, but close enough.) Well after the claim. When if the claim was fake, Tammy'd be shot anyway. This, again, reads as scum trying to force a lynch through. He also pushes the angle that if Tammy flips town (which he "knows" she will) that Benmage is scum, potentially setting up a Benmage mislynch.

I've all-but convinced myself of Kise/PV/zabriel/pidgey being the scumteam, but let's go look at zab and RC to make sure.

---

Now on page 12, while I agree that the Zab wagon formed a bit too easily, it doesn't necessarily indicate that Zab isn't scum. Also, saying that he is town because the wagon was too easy equates to saying that scum don't bus. I think it is a possibility that scum voted him.

This does not sound like the post of someone on a zabriel scumteam.

My number one target is actually PeregrinV mostly because he is pretending not to read any of my posts.

-buddypoints; this comes from town.

Also, until I review the case on Melmond, I am going to

VOTE: PeregrinV

Might change at deadline.

As does this, and as does his tunneling on AP. I don't see that kind of posting towards someone often come from scum in this way.

---

As the expression goes, zabriel's iso is scummy-as-fuck.
It's a lot of nothing, and what little there is, is horribad.

Sorry for the wall, but I'm pretty sure of it now:

The remaining scum are Kise, PeregrineV, pidgey, and zabriel.

A lynch on any of them is a scum lynch.

[mastin2]

Yes.

You're not scum 'cause of interactions. Interactions contributed, but I looked at all of you, finding you all to be incredibly scummy.
Kise is bad, PV's worse, zabriel's the worst, and you're bad, pidgey.

The interactions are just the icing on the top of the cake for why you're scum.

[mastin2]

Melmond - 11 (Tammy, zabriel, Kublai Khan, Nero Cain, BloodCovenant, Benmage, Yates, AngryPigeon, snifit, rapidcanyon, mykonian)

Okay, so zabriel's clearly scum, here. However, I'm a bit concerned that he's my only suspect.
Tammy's day-SK (but not groupscum), Khan's a townread, Nero's a townread, BC's a weaker townread, Benmage is town, Yates is town, AP's town, and snifit's wagon was highly suspicious (see below), and RC's looking town via his iso, and myk's in my townlist. (Forget why; that might need re-visiting. But he's there, for the moment, for whatever reason.)

snifit - 4 (Nero Cain, mastin2, Kise, zabriel)

Add ThAd (vote #5) and Benmage (vote #6) here, and you get the peak of the snifit wagon. Nero's town, I'm town, ThAd's town, and Benmage is town. That really leaves only Kise and zabriel.

Kise - 4 (Kublai Khan, mastin2, AngryPidgeon, jasonT1981)

In contrast, this wagon is made up entirely of strong townreads, yet the wagon has consistently been derailed. Why? Why hasn't there been a stronger effort to lynch Kise?

And why, if he were town, wouldn't the scum have been interested in mislynching him?

I just don't see any scenario in which Kise is town.

(Also, note to self, do more wagon analysis for d1; there looks like there were quite a lot of wagons, and I want to see how they formed and why they did, along with why they--except the Mel one--failed.)

[mastin2]

zabriel - 4 (Tammy, Nero Cain, jasonT1981, Acosmist)
zabriel - 6 (jasonT1981, Melmond, Nero Cain, Kublai Khan, I Am Innocent, Zoroaster)

Two zab wagons. The second is ESPECIALLY interesting, given the counterwagon which instantly formed to try and dissipate said zab wagon:

I Am Innocent - 4 (Benmage, ThAdmiral, rapidcanyon, Kise)
AngryPidgeon - 5 (ThAdmiral, rapidcanyon, Kise, Acosmist, Nero Cain)

zabriel - 4 (jasonT1981, Kublai Khan, Zoroaster, Cybertronix)

And THIS is REALLY interesting:
AngryPidgeon - 6 (ThAdmiral, Kise, Acosmist, Nero Cain, rapidcanyon, Yates)
zabriel - 5 (jasonT1981, Kublai Khan, Zoroaster, Cybertronix, BloodCovenant)
Melmond - 4 (Tammy, Benmage, zabriel, AngryPidgeon)

And the next changed votecount:
AngryPidgeon - 6 (Kise, Acosmist, Nero Cain, rapidcanyon, Yates, jasonT1981)
Cybertronix - 4 (BloodCovenant, ThAdmiral, AngryPidgeon, Kublai Khan)

Bam, zabriel wagon is gone.

Gotta go, so no time to formally analyze the above (though I think you get the gist of what I'm saying), and I've still got a few VCs after that to look at, but to my eye, this is VERY reminiscent of UN in 1377.

[mastin2]

Benmage, of course she's lying. And of course she's scum. But again, her power's proven. We know there's a daykill, and unless there's someone else controlling it aligned with Tammy, we know that Tammy's responsible for it.
If it were a scum power, I could maybe buy them vigging a partner, but ONLY if it were public to begin with. (Heck, I've dayvigged my scum partner before. Was a marathon, but still.) That didn't happen. It was private.

A private daykilling on scum means that whoever killed it is not aligned with said scum.
Ergo, Tammy is not mafia.

Is she scum? Yes. Yes, she is.
Is she mafia-scum? No; it's quite literally impossible for her to be.

Hunting the SK who has been helpful to the town is doing the mafia's work for them. Yes, she's lying. Yes, she's scum. But her shots have been good, and we know it can't be a mafia-aligned shot thanks to the private d1 kill. The shots themselves are not lies. The shots themselves can't be mafia-aligned. The shots themselves speak everything which need to be said about Tammy--that she's working for the town, even if her ultimate wincon is not with the town.

Does she need to die? Eventually, yes. Should she be lynched today? No, no she should not. That's

exactly

what the mafia want us to do.

[mastin2]

What happens tomorrow when she rolls in with a fuckit mentality and shoots idno ... me the cop.

If she shoots someone like you, we lynch her. Simple as that. She shoots who we want her to.

Thad was obviously town.

To who? To you? Sure. But as much as you'd like to be, you're not the king of this town, whose words are treated as an almighty scripture. ThAd was under heavy suspicion. Many players, myself included, had him as potential (and even likely) scum. Add in perceived lurking, and he was looking worse and worse. He was headed for mislynch-territory.

If Tammy kills outside of a selected pool, she dies. I'd strongly recommend that the pool be Kise/zabriel/pidgey/PV, with potentials in the form of myk and BC.

All the players there are heavily suspected, and likely to be lynched. If she shoots them and they flip town, know what that means? That she saved us a mislynch. Yes, her shot would bring us closer to lylo, but so would the exact mislynch she just stopped, only it'd be with the added drawback of a town player dieing overnight as well.

Her alive right now is a second lynch. If she were a normal night-killer, I could hear an argument for lynching her. (I personally don't like to lynch SKs, since I see leashed SKs as being vigs, but hey, I know the risks.) But she's not. She's a day-killer. That's two kills during the day. Hers and the lynch. That's an incredible mechanic for the town to control, and the scum should be afraid of it. They should want it gone fast. They should want her dead.

And again, this brings me to the same point, which I will hammer home time and time again:

Lynching Tammy now is

exactly

what the scum want us to do.

[mastin2]

Benmage, if she kills anyone town, we'll know it's her.
If she kills someone we don't want her to, we lynch her. Plain and simple. She could send a "SCREW YOU" to the town, but doing so is against her wincon.

Hence, she's not going to kill you, or anyone we don't want her to. You'll continue to live, because it's impossible for you to be killed without Tammy suiciding.

VOTE: Tammy

2 days 2 scum down woowoo

I'm going to

murder

everyone who takes this stance celebrating two dead scum in two days when one of the dead scum isn't truely dead scum.

[mastin2]

Could use, yes.
Would use, no. If she shot anyone we didn't want her to, with any excuse at all, she'd still be lynched.

We have control over her right now. She can't get away with ANYTHING. No killing the cop, no killing a player we don't want her to. She does, she dies, period, end of discussion, no excuses accepted.

I'll repeat: lynching her is exactly what the scum want us to do.

[mastin2]

Not murder in-thread.

Murder, as in, track you down, find where you live in real life, and kill you for the

stupidity

of this.

[mastin2]

ThAd was almost universally null-to-scum in people's lists. There were decent cases showing why he was scum. There were many players who expressed interest in a ThAd lynch. There were almost none who opposed. Then, to top it all off, ThAd was caught lurking, having not posted despite being spotted online, increasing people's already quite substancial suspicions on him.

It. was. a. good. shot.

Yes. It hit town. But it was not a bad shot.

Shooting someone like Benmage, yes, that'd be a bad shot. Shooting someone like ThAd was

exactly

what she needed to do, and did.

[mastin2]

And again, I'll point out:
Tammy is not group-scum. She's lone-scum. She needs to get the game down to two players.
She's also responsible for the only scum death we've had so far.

The mafia are group-scum. They can win when they make up 50% of the town, and that's at a number substancially higher than for tammy, ~8.

The mafia are more of a threat than Tammy.
And Tammy is more of a threat to the mafia than she is to the town.

Ergo,

The mafia want Tammy dead more than the town do.

[mastin2]

Right now, we should be focusing on group-scum.
We KNOW that Tammy CAN'T be groupscum. And Tammy lynched will just produce dead town, with no dead scum.

We gain NOTHING from the Tammy lynch THAT WE DON'T ALREADY HAVE, yet we LOSE a valuable asset.

Compare and contrast to the scum. They know that Tammy is a thread, they know lynching Tammy will produce dead town, they know lynching Tammy will prevent there being dead scum, they know that they'll be removing a valuable town asset, and they know they can now focus their nightkill elsewhere. They GAIN a lot from a Tammy lynch and LOSE NOTHING.

[mastin2]

Mind if I sneak in a pidgey lynch in between? vote pidgey

Nope, not really.

Unvote,
VOTE: pidgey.

[mastin2]

A favorable position, might I remind you, THAT TAMMY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR.

[mastin2]

First off, warning for the rest of the day, yesterday was a very. bad. day. for me, and I woke up feeling quite bitter, and things which I could normally use to relieve my stress weren't there, meaning I've got a lot of pent up anger. So if I come across as a little bit snappy, I apologize; it'd be me venting frustration here.

Because SK Tammy shooting COP BEN gets power lynched so hard she doesn't know what hit her. Duh??

This is the exact reason why WE SHOULD LET TAMMY LIVE. All this "she'll shoot Benmage!" is a plain and simple Appeal to Fear. She didn't shoot Benmage today, she won't shoot Benmage tomorrow. She had her chance, and chose not to take it. Tomorrow she'll have a chance, and she'll once more choose not to take it. It's as simple as that.

So is the thought of Tammy being BP. Making her BP and making her a daykiller means that she's immune to the scum and can stop a lynch on her dead cold, by, say, vigging when she's been put to L-1, which resets the votecount. Same thing; it's an appeal to fear. Day-SKs are strong as it is. NK-immune Day-SKs are plain and simple OP. Maybe in a larger game, but with 21 players, you're looking at an SK who has AT MOST one advantage.

It's the fact that we can definitely lynch scum now or maybe lynch scum now.

Let's just do the certain scum today.

Aco, bluntly, I think you're town, but if you continue pushing this lynch, I'm policy-lynching you tomorrow for killing the one person who can safely target you using this logic.

Tammy won't flip mafia.

We can lynch maybe-mafia today (a suspect), or we can lynch someone who is definitely not mafia (Tammy).
Lynching Tammy is effectively lynching town. Yes, she won't flip town, but she's not flipping mafia, and we need to lynch mafia.

Because I'm scum and this is what I want, mastin.

Yes, you are.
VOTE: Kise.

[mastin2]

You won't get majority on anyone else,

I can certainly try. The scum want Tammy dead, and then you want Tammy dead, but there are plenty of people who are town and willing to listen to alternatives. The key is to coordinate which Tammy counterwagon to focus on. I'm advocating Kise, right now. Pidgey, myk, and BC are the alternative wagons right now. Myk, pidgey, and Tammy (the respective voters on said wagons) are almost certainly open to other options. (Especially Tammy.) And we're discussing them and coordinating them right now.

-antitown dead, helps reveal setup info check check

But not scum dead, and not revealing anything about the setup that we don't already know. It's impossible for Tammy to be groupscum. She'll flip day-SK, and that's it. No setup info at all. Nothing we don't already know.

-and eliminate future miskills check

Except she's not killing anyone we wouldn't mislynch anyway.

-day isn't dragged out check

What pro-town motive is there to end the day prematurely? We're discussing who the scum are. We know what Tammy will flip: non-mafia. So we're discussing who WILL flip mafia. There's nothing in that which we don't want to drag on; everything being talked about is things we should talk about.

-ensures no foul play, and cop remains alive check

Again, this plain and simple an Appeal to Fear, with no basis in facts. The facts are shown by the trends in-thread. She could have shot you today, Benmage. She didn't. She could shoot you tomorrow. She won't. Her play speaks for itself; she's in a town mindset, even if she isn't town.

-requires us to kill her at a later (maybe less fortunate position) This can be a minus or a check... we can't predict the future

I can. Tammy is lynched, flips exactly what we know she will, and we have a dead townie. We're no closer to finding scum than we are today.

- killing town minus

Again, anyone she'd kill is someone we'd have mislynched.

- killing town PRS minus minus

So don't have her kill without the target claiming. Instantly prevents this.

We don't need it, bottomline. No reason to risk her living.

There's plenty of reason to keep her living. You're right, we technically don't need it, but we also don't need her lynched; it works both ways.

As scum won't NK her, probably can't.

Again, THIS IS AN APPEAL TO FEAR. A Day-SK is already incredibly powerful. She can stop lynches dead by killing, and she can't be tracked, she can't be watched, and her kills can't be stopped. That's strongman, ninja, and semi-governor all in one packaged deal.
And on top of that, you think she's bulletproof?!?

Not a chance in hell.

[mastin2]

Can you please not make such posts?

Why? So I can let us do the scum's work for them, waste our lynch, and let us get nowhere? Heck no.

She fired off an awful shot today (on someone who just spent a lot of time convincing himself she was scum...HMM) and she's going to continue to fire off awful shots.

The fact that ThAd flipped town does not mean it was a bad shot. Again, how was ThAd a bad shot, when half the town was suspicious of him? And a lot more had him as null? And he was doing something questionable? Again, he was a good shot. I woulda made a similar shot as a day-vig.

You're giving her exactly what she wants.

And YOU are giving THE SCUM exactly what THEY want.

[mastin2]

I don't see him as scum advocating me staying alive if he believes I'm the serial killer, especially when I had raised minor suspicion of him before.

Hate to burst your bubble for thinking I'm town (again ), but honestly, lynching Tammy is so freakin' stupid to do as town that I'd probably do it as scum anyway, for specifically this reason, to generate towncred and say, "I told you so", that it was a bad idea.

That said, Tammy...would you be okay with vigging Aco tomorrow? It'd get rid of a player who we don't want around in lylo, and there's a fair chance that it would do no harm for you.
(By the way, remember how I said Zoro was town, thanks to AV? Only applies if Aco's claim is real. If Aco's scum, so is Zoro.)

[mastin2]

Town PGO, knowing that you would kill cop-claimed scum, would seem to be OK with the idea. You're response was much more on the nervous side than I expected. Since you realize you have to be lynched before lylo, why the sudden defensiveness?

So. much. this.

I'm beginning to strongly smell Aco-Zoro scum. Others, not sure, but it'd require re-evaluating my suspects.

Regardless, Tammy's not the lynch today.

[mastin2]

So please do.

It's not an unreasonable request, Tammy will follow it, so we can lynch someone else.

[mastin2]

Changed my mind.

Vote: Acosmist

I can support this:

Vote: Acosmist

Vote: Acosmist

Vote: Acosmist

:goodposting:

VOTE: Acosmist.

[mastin2]

I would rather see Pidgey, Zab or Kise hung today.

To be fair, jason, you've got the right idea; I have had scumreads on all of 'em.

However, Aco and Zoro are both scum. Who the rest of the team are can be sorted out on future days. It's probably within those names, and I'd give heavy scrutiny to the Tammy wagon, which is (put bluntly) incredibly scumdriven.

[mastin2]

Also, WC's blown any towncred BC had.

[mastin2]

Mastin you're going to be guilty tomorrow and hung for your derpness. Remember this.

No, I'm going to be dead, and you're going to have wasted your investigation.
And if we lynch Tammy, we'll be no closer to finding scum, with a useless cop whose result was wasted by targeting a guy who's quite frankly the most likely to die tonight. I predicted you'd be targeting me when I made that post about town being no closer to finding scum, just as I'm predicting me being dead, since guess what?

You're not hunting scum.

I am.

[mastin2]

By the way, did an iso of Kise again. It supposed Kise-Aco-Zoro. I've got a preliminary BC/WC as the fourth, and that was also supported.

[mastin2]

*supported Kise-Aco-Zoro.

[mastin2]

We have over 20 pages of nothingness. And Nothing will change until she hangs. You will continue to stall game progression, for what??? NOT KILLING A NONTOWN memeber.... yeeeeeeeesh.

Except, the nothingness won't go away because Tammy's dead. It'll be, in fact, the cause of nothingness if Tammy's hanged.
We already know everything we need to know about Tammy. Her flip gives us nothing, NOTHING, that we don't already have.

If we lynch Aco (who will flip scum), we have extra info, and we know where to go with it. We know the Tammy lynch was scumdriven (as Aco's flip would prove).

If we lynch Tammy (who will flip SK, as we already know), we have nothing we don't have right now, at this very point in time. Benmage's investigation will be wasted, and guess what?
The state of the game will be exactly the same as today, only worse, because now we don't have the daykill to give us that second lynch.

Logic.

[mastin2]

I'm going to say it, as many times as I need to say it.

Tammy. Is. NOT. Bulletproof.

Her daykill can't be watched, nor tracked. That makes her kill a ninja-kill, since as d1 proved, she can keep the kills private.
Her daykill can't be blocked by a protective role. That makes her kill strongman, since it overcomes any protection a player may have.
Her kill can act as a governor, since if she, say, used it near the end of the day, it'd reset the votecount as shown already, meaning that anyone close to a lynch no longer is.

On top of that, you're suggesting she ALSO has BULLETPROOF protection? That'd make it so that Benmage would be the ONLY role that could find her. Otherwise, she'd cruise to victory--no lynching, since she's a day-killing machine and her dayvigs would be seen as dayvigs, not as day-SK-shots. No tracking, since she can't. No watching, since she can't. Benmage would be her one. and. ONLY. weakness, if she were bulletproof. That'd be the most souped-up SK I've ever seen, so bluntly,

NO

.

Tammy's vulnerable to being nightkilled, and suggesting otherwise is ignoring basic balance, role mechanics, and in general, is just plain. simple. Fearmongering.

[mastin2]

The argument for letting Tammy Live:
Her shot gives us a second lynch, her lynch is not a mafia-lynch, she gives us a statistical advantage, lynching someone else sheds light on the setup and gives us new information, whereas lynching her gives us nothing we don't already know, the scum have to NK her sooner or later because they're going to need her dead, the scum are pushing hard for her mislynch, and probably half a dozen other points I'm forgetting.

The argument for lynching Tammy?
She's BP; the scum won't kill her (false), we don't need the advantage (but we can certainly use it), she's scum (she's not mafia, though), she sheds light on the setup (she doesn't; we know everything about her already), the scum can influence her shots (they can influence lynches just as much), "KK is advocating against it, so let's do it", she's muddying the waters so she needs to die (false--it's lynching Tammy which muddies the waters, and lynching someone else which gives us direction), and that we need to lynch her sooner or later (false--see also, SHE IS NOT BP).

Plain and simple. The points for lynching Tammy are subjective and have little basis in reality. Each has a grain of truth to them, but none of them when analyzed hold water.
The points for letting Tammy live are objective and have been clearly defined. A few of the points may not have been properly explained (like mine, that it's a scumdriven wagon, but I think that should explain itself when it comes down to motive), but most of them have.

tl;dr, Lynching Tammy is a strategical error based off of faulty reasoning.

[mastin2]

By the way, I will not be looking for scum outside the Tammy wagon. (With the exception of Zoroaster, who I suspect is only off the wagon because he's behind, and if he were caught up, would be on said wagon.)

The person on the wagon showing the most logic is Angry Pidgeon.

Angry Pidgeon

.

The fact that, of all the players on the wagon, the player being most reasonable is AP should give you an idea of what the nature of the wagon is:
Complete. total. Bullshit.

[mastin2]

All evidence points to a single-faction game.
Multi-faction talk, just like Tammy-is-BP, is nothing but fearmongry.

We have clear lynch candidates other than Tammy--strongest of them being Aco. Almost every single point made about Tammy being an optimal lynch (which, as my above posts demonstrate, is false) can also be made for Aco being an optimal lynch.
Aco muddies the waters with his claim, we need him dead sooner or later, the scum aren't going to kill him, his claim can't be proven, he can't be investigated, he's a distraction, he's not showing town motive, etc.

So why Tammy (sub-optimal) rather than Aco?

[mastin2]

Aco's play has been, in a word, safe.
He's never strongly pushed for something, he's playing reactionarily rather than taking actions, he's consistently on the defensive and showing concern for his own life, he's done very little actual scumhunting, his reads have been highly sheepish, so overall, he's an active lurker, who isn't at all using his PGO claim to push strongly against his suspects. (Speaking of which, he has close to none.) He's done plenty of buddying and lots of parroting others, not contributing his own voice to the discussion.
Interactions with other players I suspect are just the icing on top of the cake.

Add in all the points about his claim, and how they're much the same as the points for Tammy (only more optimized), and he's a VERY strong lynch candidate.

[mastin2]

The only lynch I will actually accept today that isn't Tammy is WC.

I would

prefer

Aco, but I can do that.

[mastin2]

Also,

Mod:

I'm taking the weekend off. Busy week this week has left me exhausted. I'm going to sleep in tomorrow and slack off the entire day.

In a few words,

V/LA over weekened.

[mastin2]

/got nine pages to read, but back.
Forgot that Monday was a holiday, and that I therefore would not be here yesterday; my bad.
78-86, here we go.

[mastin2]

By the way--I've mentioned Zoro's scum, right?

MoI just reconfirmed it. All his posts on the subject.

If he were town, he'd

know

better. Khan's right. Everyone off the Tammy wagon's right, on the game being double-day.

/on 83. But the scumteam's still MoI, Aco, Kise, and one more person on the wagon. (WC's my primary choice, but quite frankly, it's such a godawful wagon that I could see scum on ANY of the other five members. AP, pidgey, myk, snifit, and whoever else I'm forgetting.)

[mastin2]

Oh, right. Benmage is the ninth.

For obvious reasons, he's excluded. Butyeah. All remaining scum are on the Tammy wagon, and Aco/MoI/Kise are three of 'em.

If we can't convince the stupid idotic stubborn town players on said lunacy wagon to hop off, then Tammy will be lynched, I'll be killed, Benmage will waste his investigation on me, and we'll be here tomorrow, with people on the wagon going, "It had to be done!", "Well, that was stupid of me.", "WHY WAS MASTIN KILLED?!?", "Well...I'm clueless now.", "It was the right thing to do.", "What do we do now?!?" and so on.

All the while, the scum, which I'm pushing now, will have once more gotten away with nightkilling the players suspicious of them, and people won't bat an eye.

I'm calling that right now.

[mastin2]

VOTE: Pidgey.

[mastin2]

I dont really have a read on jason he is just useless.

:irony:

[mastin2]

Butyeah. While I'm not sold on pidgey being scum, he's in the pool, and I'd MUCH rather have him lynched than Tammy.

[mastin2]

Have I mentioned the part where MoI/Zoro is scum with Aco?
Yeah, he so totally is.

Even if you're town, we don't need you. Less crap cluttering the thread.

Let's analyze that statement, shall we?
Who has been crying nothing but "LYNCHTAMMYLYNCHTAMMYLYNCHTAMMYGOGOGOGO, LYNCHTAMMYLYNCHTAMMYLYNCHTAMMYGOGOGOGO" for, what, 40 pages now?
Yeah.

Who has been

actually scumhunting

and looking for

scum

rather than lynching someone we already know the flip of?

[mastin2]

Update, reaffirming that AP's town.
IaI looked town, AP's play has been town, his play is consistent with what I've seen of him as town, and coming to his senses on the Tammy wagon makes him town.

VOTE: WrathChild
CAN WE AT LEAST DO THIS OVER PIDGEY. WC IS CLEARLY SCUM FFS.

I'm ready and willing. Also can go for MoI today.

This is not a town-MoI. The reason why is simple motive. He's not done much, but he's done exactly what scuMoI would--protect scumbuddies (Aco in particular) and push a mislynch. (Screw it, I'm calling Tammy a mislynch even though she technically isn't, since for all intensive purposes, an SK lynch counts as a mislynch, since

it's not a scum lynch

, and the mafia KNOW it's not lynching one of their own.) He's hoping to coast through the day, coasting through a lynch, so that he can get into night and coordinate with his scumbuddies while catching up, since right now, he replaced in under pressure.

As did WC, with much the same results. His entrance, in fact, is tantamount to a scumclaim, as he said, "please don't lynch me yet", and tried to wiggle his way out of his own lynch. (As it turned out, there wasn't a threat of a lynch, but he THOUGHT there was.)

Also, myk's town thanks to MoI's push against him.

why does Mastin feel like he's obv-town?

Because I am.
I'm not pushing the Tammy mislynch; I'm pushing for an actually informative lynch. Preferably on scum, which Tammy is not.
A while back, pidgey asked me if I was threatening those on the wagon. My answer is that it wasn't a threat--it was a promise. MoI, Aco, Kise, and right now, WC are my choices for the scum. All are on the wagon, all continue to push it beyond reason. Pidgey's at a close fifth for much the same. (Ben's town, and snifit's the other. Snifit's not in my list of suspects thanks to interactions with Kise, but it is possible.)

I've shown pretty clearly why each of them are scum, or scum candidates. Interactions match up, scum motive match up, scum mindset matches up, general playstyle this game matches up. The scumteam's there.

[mastin2]

I can sum up MoI's play in a single sentence. Heck, with a single word when boiled down:
Discrediting.

MoI isn't hunting for scum. He's trying to discredit players. Not to lynch scum, not to look for who's scum on or off the Tammy wagon, not trying to catch up and make sense of the game. He's specifically trying to discredit players, to make people doubt their status as town.
It's the same thing WC's doing.
It's the same thing Kise is doing.
Heck, it's the same thing Aco's doing.

Anyone up for a flashwagon on MoI?

[mastin2]

Can someone please tell me your JASON read?

Look at AV's push on jason. 'Nuff said; jason's town.

Mastin if im your fifth scum choice why the flying fuck are you voting me.

Because you're a better lynch than Tammy.
If you're willing to vote for MoI, though, then I'll gladly switch with you.
Heck, if you voted WC or Kise, I'd sheep ya there.

[mastin2]

Screw it. A leader leads by example.

VOTE: MagnaofIllusion.

[mastin2]

Also, the more and more pidgey posts, the more and more I think derptown.
He'd still be a better mislynch than Tammy, but I think he's exactly that--a mislynch.

MoI, on the other hand...

[mastin2]

Hey, PV, what do you think of MoI?

Keep in mind, MoI = Zoro, who if I'm not mistaken, you had some suspicion of.

[mastin2]

Khan, do you think that this is town MoI?

'Cause to me, this most certainly is not town MoI.

I've seen MoI as both town and scum, and I'm telling you right here and now,

this is how MoI plays as scum

.

[mastin2]

@mastin2 - I'm leaning scum-MagnaofIllusion.

Alright, then.
1: Join me on his wagon. We're flashwagoning either him or WC, but pidgey's off the table, at least for today.
2: Unless you think your back-and-forth with MoI will further incriminate MoI, I'd advise you to stop it. It's cluttering the thread, doing exactly what MoI wants you to do. He WANTS to argue with you. He WANTS to enter a debate with you, because entering a debate clutters the thread and makes people think instinctively townVtown.

[mastin2]

Yes, the scum are entirely on the Tammy wagon, Benmage, because guess what?

Tammy isn't mafia.

So a cop claims. They have a guilty on someone who isn't group-scum. The scum know that the guilty must therefore be on someone who is a threat to them, AND as an added bonus, they think that they'll receive no suspicion for jumping on, because "herp derp it's a scum lynch". (No, it's not. For all intensive purposes, Tammy's a mislynch.)

This isn't rocket science. It's basic mafia nature. Tammy is a threat to the mafia, a lot more so than she is to the town. In fact, she's one of the town's strongest allies. The AV kill proves as much. They need her dead, and they want it to be a lynch.

It's probably not pidgey, but it IS Kise. It IS MoI. It IS Aco. And it's most likely BC as well.

[mastin2]

Because Zoro being town relies on Aco being town.
They share the same alignment.
If one's town, they both are.

However, far more important, if one's scum,

they both are scum

for that very same post. (AP, ironically enough, was the first to suggest as much, although he crossed it out.)

[mastin2]

You realize I'd be way more in favor of a Kise-lynch, right?

I know, but I don't think I can get enough support for him.
Plus, as much info as a Kise lynch generates, a MoI lynch gives a LOT more, as it also sheds light on Aco's alignment thanks to AV's post. And quite frankly, when it comes to scum players getting their act together, I don't really have much fear of Kise stepping up his game and suddenly becoming obvtown to all despite him being scum.
I do know that MoI can pull it off. It might not give him the win, but I've seen him get to lylo when by all rights he shoulda died long before. All it took was a single game night for him to compose himself, coordinate his play and plan with his scumbuddies.

So, while Kise is good, MoI is better. More support, more info to be gained, more reason to lynch him now.

---

PV, Zoro was town for Aco's claim and Aco's claim alone to me. I made an assumption, that Aco was town with his claim, and wrote him off. So when I discovered the Zoro-Aco relationship AV had, I made the faulty assumption off of my faulty assumption, that made Zoro town.

Then I did an iso of him. Nothin. Zilch. Nothing good, but lots of bad. Interactions only made it worse.
Then comes in MoI, giving up on a gamebreakingly powerful strategy (which, as you yourself mention,

is something town-MoI would never do

) in favor of pushing the easy way out, while discrediting everyone off the wagon without actual scumhunting.

It's bad to worse to worst. MoI's probably a stronger scumread than Aco, and is right up there fighting with Kise for #1. In fact, the more MoI posts, the more he begins to surpass Kise.

[mastin2]

By the way,

Im still on Tammy. Not moving my vote unless it's a hammer on myk. IF Tammy isn't lynched by Thursday, it'd be better (or at least convenient) for you all to discuss what to do now. There's no telling who will live overnight so perhaps a dead man's thoughts could be honored.

RE: Informs the mafia kill... scare tactic. Get your hands dirty in advanced. Scum have enough to go off of based on who wants Tammy alive and who wants her dead today. Depending on which side of the fence they sit, they'll manipulate whoever helps their agenda...if you've had as many scum roles as I have, the previous s is default.

This is pretty much as much of a scumclaim as you can get. He's explicitly spelling out the scum plan: get Tammy lynched, and shoot the people off of her wagon as they're the only ones showing reason. He's explicitly saying that the scum agenda is to lynch Tammy, and that they'll keep around those who are helping them do so.

[mastin2]

Oh how cute ... now that the pidgey wagon has been called out as low-lying fruit scum have regrouped and want to take a run at me.

Let me go find Mastin's quotes to see if what Peregrine is suggesting (that he's completely contradicting himself) is valid.

Again. This is not scumhunting. This is trying to discredit those off the Tammy wagon, with an added bonus of OMGUS thrown in.

MoI isn't aiming to lynch scum. He's aiming to cast doubt. On Khan, on me, on everyone off of Tammy, and on Tammy herself for that matter.

This. is. scuMoI.

[mastin2]

Throwing down 'Appeals to Repetition' doesn't make anything you say valid or accurate.

Irony at its finest.
Guess what the case against Tammy is?
The same points, hammered in over and over again as if saying them more times will make it any more true.

Guess what the case for keeping Tammy alive is?
Something which has evolved with almost every single post relating to it, bringing in good point after good point after good point with very little repetition, as each and almost every post brings something new to the table with why Tammy should live.

You are suggesting you know it is ScumMoI despite the fact that the only time I recall you as being in the same game with me scum (Zach's Large Normal) you completely failed to identify me.

I read games too, MoI. I've read many games with you as town, and many with you as scum. I can tell the difference, and this discrediting is practically your signature as scum.

[mastin2]

Yates, your read on MoI would be much appreciated. You're still on Aco, and your vote's not doing much there.
pidgey - 3 (Elscouta, zabriel, jasonT1981)
WrathChild - 3 (Tammy, AngryPidgeon, PeregrineV)
MagnaofIllusion - 3 (mykonian, mastin2, Kublai Khan)

We can't have it all three ways. Now, I currently think that pidgey's town, so lynching him is suboptimal. WC's viable, but not as good as MoI.

Seriously, who has a townread on MoI for his discrediting? I'll say it again. He's giving "suspects", but he's not giving suspicions. His "scumhunting" consists entirely of discrediting others. Discrediting Khan, discrediting mykonian, discrediting me, discrediting Benmage, discrediting Tammy. Again, that's not scumhunting. His posts have the scum motive in them, to cast doubt on others. Cast doubt on Benmage, cast doubt on Tammy, cast doubt on Khan, myk, and myself. That's not a town-MoI.

Town-MoI would be looking for scum, not looking for people to argue with and intentionally muddy the waters. Town-MoI would realize how gamebreakingly powerful Tammy's shot can be and want to use it. (What was that game which was brought up in the scummies thread? The one which had a double-day D1 and normal days onward? Where the double-day helped break the game? Yeah, MoI was town there and exploited that mechanic to its fullest.)

scuMoI is the kind of player to fight for the sake of fighting, discrediting to try and weaken opposition, would intentionally be muddying the waters, would want to get rid of Tammy because of the threat she poses, and in general? Would be playing

exactly as he is now

.
Add in Zoro's play to the mix, add in how it was a whole lot of nothing, add in how MoI's play is also basically zilch, add in the condemning tie AV made between Zoro and Aco, add in MoI's defense of Aco to solidify it, add in Aco's general play, add in Kise's defense of both of these slots, and you can't get much more obvious than this.

MoI is scum. We're lynching him today, not Tammy, not pidgey, not WC, not even Aco.

[mastin2]

MoI's first post--discrediting Benmage and Tammy.
Second post--discrediting Benmage, Tammy, and now Khan, throwing in a weak distance to Kise.
Fourth post--discrediting Khan and Elscouta, more distancing to Kise, and invoking faulty logic with regards to the kill. (It's been explained multiple times why lynch/lynch/kill is better than lynch/kill/lynch/kill for numbers.)
Fifth post--discrediting Khan and Benmage, voting Tammy as I predicted for that slot to do.
Sixth post--discrediting Yates. Carries through to the seventh post as well.
Ninth post--defends Aco, attacks Nero in an OMGUS, and--of course--discredits Khan and Tammy.
Tenth post--rolefishing, discrediting of Tammy, weak attack to Nero, all in one neat little package.
Twelfth post--discrediting Myk, myself, Tammy, and Khan, all in one.
Thirteenth post--an OMGUS discrediting of myk. Again, MoI's "suspects" are made up entirely of people throwing suspicion his way--Nero, myk, and myself to name a few.
The first thing he does which even remotely approaches scumhunting isn't until his fourteenth post.
Fourteen. Posts. for MoI to give anything resembling content. Everything before then was, as demonstrated above, just discrediting and OMGUS'ing. Even then, it's mainly discrediting again, this time aimed at everyone on the pidgey wagon along with more discrediting of myk.
Post sixteen contains a defense of WC as well.
Seventeen is discrediting Khan, eighteen discrediting me, Yates, and myk.
Nineteen is Khan, and twenty is a failed attempt at me.
21 is further attempts to discredit me, shows hypocrisy (repetition), and furthermore, shows how he's addressing someone he knows to be town, which is immediately contradicted by his posts saying he thinks I'm scum with myk. (Yeah, right. I would

totally

band together with my scumbuddy to hardcore attack a player like MoI. )
22 and 23 again show attempts to discredit me, while simultaneously trying to call me scum yet addressing me as town.

And as a final nail in the coffin, 24 is addressing myk as town, despite him calling myk scum.

Like I said. MoI has done nothing but discredit and OMGUS players since his entrance. This is

not

scumhunting, and if a player not showing interest in lynching Tammy asks, I can explain each post in more detail.

[mastin2]

@aco - does it say only night actions used against you?
p.edit: fck you daykiller for confirming day actions. But please, answer Aco.

Hmm...zabriel, melmond, Zor, KK & Tammy are on my list.

or is almost outside

, leaning null. As I kept reading, he becomes more interactive, less idle than when I first had bad feelings about him.

Might I add, calling out Khan yet not Aco is inconsistent for Kise.

I am a FOXDIE carrier.

Can you confirm/deny that FOXDIE can be a target of any person or is it safe to assume that if you have FOXDIE in the games, you'll have them here?

Yeah I didn't know if I should say anything, but in the MGS games, FOXDIE killed people with nanomachines in their bodies, so it feels like an idea for PGO that would be MGS theme exclusive. Outguessing the mod(s) may be healthy after all. I trust Faraday's knowledge of the MGS games.

Defend's Aco's flavor. And quite frankly, I don't buy that Kise looked it up for the game. I think it was discussed in the scum QT and/or given in the scum PMs.

Other minimalists/lurkers are Shah, Amrun, Zoro and Cyber... for some reason Cyber isn't looking suspect to me, but it seems like he should. Bigger fish to fry? Maybe that's why. He's not saying anything to move the game forward. I got no feelings for Shah. Zor is taking it easy. Consolidating my scumlist to a reasonable number, I'ma say KK, IAI, snif and Zor/Cyber.
I think BC's done good with highlighting the potential "there's 2 mafias" slip, but my GUT says to put zab on the scummy-leaning-null side.

though not a defense of Zoro, he keeps him out of the serious suspect list.

Aco is trolling the fuck out of you guys and I LOVE IT.

Not defense, but this, again, reads as cheeky scum.

I'd like Kise to explain his reason for posting this.

Back then, I didn't want to let Aco go conftown off claim alone so I had to be on his ass like white on rice. Did some research on FOXDIE and found out the above info. When Zoro asked something videogame/flavor specific about how FOXDIE should really work with Aco's role, I corroborated a similar thing I noticed from my research.

Again, this reasoning seems pretty BS, and doesn't seem to match the above.

LOL... best you got? I fail to see what I lied about. Did I say I've always brought up how stung I was in all our games? You do know the whole reason for me bringing that up is because you called jason town, without consideration that he may be pulling a similar stunt as you, which is what you're acclaimed for? As far as I know, you're the first person to dupe town by fakeclaiming miller. No one really doubted D1 miller claims until after you got away with the fakeclaim and won. You're something like a celebrity. Your act isn't something easily forgotten. So, yes, I brought it up only after you acted as if jason could not be playing any tricks, because I know you're not new when it comes to trickery.

Except it's not similar in any way. If anything Acosmist's claim is the most similar to what I did and no, I'm not giving him any clearance for it.

Keep in mind, you didn't just say "Khan is suspicious", you called me the shadiest person in the game. You still haven't attributed any scum motivations to my actions, you just insisted that I should be a lot more paranoid. Well, there's scum motivation in boosting paranoia and poking holes in other's scumreads. Especially townreads of people of people you don't believe to be scum.

Got nothing to do with Aco.

Note also--Kise pushes Tammy over Aco when Aco was a counterwagon.
Note further--Kise has dropped Zoro entirely from the suspect list, despite the above showing no reason for it.

He's called Khan scum, and might be calling me scum, and has called snifit scum, but he should have another name in there--yet nothing, other than maybe an attack on Jason who we know is town.

[mastin2]

Interesting that instead of pushing for either of the candidates you full support (pidgey, Acos) you choose instead to basically sheep a case (which is a joke, BTW) aren’t ‘sold on’. Noted.

Again, discrediting the people off the Tammy wagon.
And yes, I use the word discrediting, because it's perfectly accurate. Does MoI think the whole Tammy wagon is town? Does MoI think the entire scumteam is off the Tammy wagon?
His posts certainly would say as much, considering he's done nothing,

nothing

* to pressure ANYONE on the wagon, and is pushing EXCLUSIVELY off the Tammy wagon.

Again, this isn't scumhunting. I say it plainly, I say it bluntly, because there is no other word to describe it. It's discrediting, plain and simple. It's casting doubt on players. He's not trying to find scum--he's trying to make people doubt their townreads. Doubt the townread on Benmage*, doubt the townreads on Khan, doubt the townreads on me, on myk, doubt Tammy's sincerity, doubt Nero, doubt the players off the Tammy wagon in general. He's not applying pressure to those people because he thinks that they're scum. He's applying pressure to those people to make people doubt their credibility, to doubt their sincerity, to doubt that their course of action is the right one. Not only does that further the scum agenda of getting Tammy lynched, it ALSO casts doubt come night-time, making protective PRs second-guess their protection choices (allowing the scum to get away with blatant nightkills such as myself) and investigation roles to second-guess their choices (allowing the scum to avoid investigation and allowing the town to waste investigations on people who are likely to die, such as myself).

Bluntly, I'm not pushing MoI based off of his words. He's an airtight enough scum player that he doesn't scumslip, he doesn't do stupid stuff as scum, he doesn't say scummy stuff.
He

does

, however, show an agenda, as town and as scum. As town, the agenda is to find scum, using town's power to its absolute fullest in order to do so. Maximize efficiency, build in redundancy, use good coordination combined with good scumhunting and solid reads.

As scum, the agenda is, once more, exactly what he's doing: to hide scum from the town, to minimize town's power, to weaken their roles and make them lack the synchronization they are intended to have. Make them inefficient, leave gaps in their defenses, leave holes for the scum to slip through, where all the roles are made to be weak links--combined with pushing seemingly easy targets for halfhearted reasons, buddying hardcore to those who support him while viciously trying to discredit those opposed to him, without thought for them being town. Weak reads highly OMGUS in nature.

OMGUS by itself is not a scumtell, sure. (Quite frankly, I see the term as overused--so whenever I

do

use it, you have to realize that it's

serious

.) The

circumstances

, the

motive

, of the OMGUS is what makes the difference between town OMGUS and scum OMGUS. Town OMGUS is based on thinking that the attacks against you are motivated by scum. Scum OMGUS is motivated by trying to keep yourself alive and desperation. MoI displays the latter, because he's attacked literally everyone who's even shown interest in attacking him, and he's also reverse-OMGUS'd by doing the opposite for those who have shown thoughts of him being town, buddying to players like AP hardcore.

And again, if a player not interested in lynching Tammy doubts my case, doubts that what MoI has done is nothing but discrediting and is not actually scumhunting, then I can go into detail about each point--but because it's MoI who's asking, because MoI WANTS to fight, he

wants

to argue with me, to muddy the waters, to further cast doubt and cloud the thread, I won't do so with just his provocation.


*My bad. Forgot. He pushed Benmage a little bit. So it's technically not nothing. It's as close to nothing as you can get without being nothing, though.

[mastin2]

Also, ask yourselves this:
Where's the scum motive in letting Tammy live?

We've discussed the town motive for letting Tammy live compared to the town motive for lynching Tammy, but how about the scum motive?

She's known to be a threat to them. She's known to not be mafia, she's known to have KILLED mafia, she's known to be willing to cooperate, she's known to be a competent scumhunter, she's known to be a valuable, reasonable player, who is quite capable of (through rather objective reasoning) finding the scum--and she's not someone who would be fooled so easily by people defending her, by people saying she's town, so she would be willing to look off her wagon for scum.

In other words, the scum have nothing to gain by keeping her alive.

What's the scum motive for wanting Tammy lynched?
It's not an informative lynch, as we know everything there is to know about Tammy already. It gives the scum a free nightkill. They can hop on guilt-free, because they're sheeping a cop guilty which they

know

is not on someone from their team, so they have nothing to lose by getting on. Because they think Tammy will flip anti-town, they assume they'll get away scotch-free and that nobody will bat an eye at being on the Tammy wagon. (And if people ignore me, then they'll be right.) They can't afford, they literally

cannot live with

, the game being double-day, as that mechanic is so incredibly townsided it nearly breaks the game, so they'd need to nightkill her if she couldn't be lynched--but why waste a nightkill when the town is willing to help them? As an added bonus, it gets rid of a competent player who is a

damn

-good scumhunter, and KNOWN to have shot scum and be willing to shoot more scum. Because they gain nothing from defending her (see above), they might as well attack her, since they have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

In other words, the scum have EVERY single reason to want Tammy dead.

THIS

is why the Tammy wagon is incredibly scum-driven.

[mastin2]

Do you think the entire pool of players not voting for Tammy are Town?

As the above post demonstrates?

YES

.

See also, my experience in 1377. This push against Tammy is

eerily

similar to the scum's push against RM that game. That wagon had all three scum on it; it was an incredibly scum-driven mislynch. The push against RM became strongest after he had claimed VT, and the scum knew they could get away with lynching him.

[mastin2]

Does anyone outside of Mastin believe he's managed to narrow down the entirety of scum in this game Day 2 to a group that at worst is a 50/50 shot?

Yes.
Why?

Because, SCREW YOU ALL, I AM A SCUMHUNTING

GOD

.





/busy. But will say would rather no-lynch than lynch Tammy. Much would prefer MoI, though.

[mastin2]

Why is that? Don’t want to much attention to be paid to the case?

Honestly? I don't see a case. "It's in posts *numbers*." Yes, I see the case in posts *numbers*. I'm saying I don't see how the case is actually a case. All I see is scum OMGUS'ing and trying to discredit a player who has taken perfectly reasonable and logical stances.
As for the airtight comment--there is no contradiction. The statement is, simply, that MoI's words are solid, but his motives are rotten. This is displayed in his play. His attacks are worded in ways which show no scum weakness, but who the attacks are on, and why he's attacking them, are what make it scummy. Again, this is not looking at the surface. Superficially, MoI is a dang-strong player. He can make his words sound good. When it comes to the reasons he's saying those words, however, MoI is a far weaker scum player. It's one of the things I've seen at least twice used by players to catch him--including once by our very own Tammy. Bluntly,

mastin doesn’t want to get into a Case-Making battle with me because he knows he can’t win that.

This is entirely correct. In a wall-to-wall war, I can't win. MoI's a stronger player than I am, especially when it comes to manipulating the facts and the circumstances. His buddying up to the birds is evidence of this; it's a perfect scum move, because it gets the birds willing to support HIM and also makes it so that when he ultimately goes down as scum (which if I have my way, he will), they look like buddies. It's manipulation, pure and simple, that gets him strong allies and leaves him in a strong position.

However, once more, MoI is weaker when it comes to masking scum motive. His buddying is blatant, his OMGUSing is blatant, his discrediting is blatant, his all-around scum motive is widely on display for all to see--he wants Tammy dead, and he wants to mask his scumbuddies, to cause confusion to the town and leave them leaderless. He wants to create that chaos. And entering into battles with people like me and Khan is a perfect way to do so--because it makes the players doubt Khan and myself and everyone else he attacks.

But hey. MoI just gave me an idea. Never woulda thought of it if he hadn't taunted me.

I will enter into a 1V1 with MoI. If he flips town, then you can lynch me.

I'm that certain he's scum.

[mastin2]

I take it back, by the way. MoI-as-scum

can

make scumslips. Like this one.

Does anyone outside of Mastin believe he's managed to narrow down the entirety of scum in this game Day 2 to a group that at worst is a 50/50 shot?

Okay, so it's not a traditional scumslip, and it's related to how MoI's weak at hiding scum motive. Motive is deeply tied to mindset, and this post demonstrates a scum mindset.

He's addressing me as if I am town, here. He's asking if anyone other than myself believes that I've narrowed down the scum to an at-worst 50/50 shot.
Myself believing I've narrowed down the scum to a 50/50 shot.
Myself. Believing. Found the scum.

This statement REQUIRES me to be town, because if I'm scum, I canNOT truly believe I've found scum.

Yet he "believes" that I'm scum. But he's addressing me as if I'm town.
Again, this shows a scum mindset, for the simple reasoning laid out--he knows that I'm town, but is trying to convince others that I'm scum.
It's a mindset-slip. (So MoI's play isn't

quite

airtight, but thanks to the nature of the slip, it's dang-close.) He's not playing as town. He's playing as scum.

[mastin2]

Heck, why wait for tomorrow for the 1V1?
Benmage thinks I'm scum. Snifit's suspicious of me. Kise has shown interest in me being scum. (Though he refuses to explicitly take a stance one way or the other.) Pidgey thinks I'm scum. No clue on WC, but it wouldn't surprise me if he says I'm scum. Aco says I'm scum. MoI says I'm scum. AP has for some reason said I'm not, but given a 1V1 between me and MoI, for some reason he's been implying that he thinks that MoI is more town, and would take that side.

So almost the entirety of the Tammy wagon would like to see me hanged.
Why wait for tomorrow what you can try today? (Heck, even a lot of people off the Tammy wagon have expressed doubt on me. Nero, Tammy, myk, maybe even Khan, to name a few.)

It's not Tammy vs pidgey, Tammy vs WC, or even Tammy vs WC.
Nor should it be Tammy vs. MoI.

Let's make it Mastin vs. MoI.

We're lynching either MoI or myself today. It doesn't matter which. Heck, if it came to it, I'd self-vote. But I'm forcing my hand. Laying down the law.
I. Will. Not. Let. Tammy. Be. Lynched.

[mastin2]

Tomorrow if I am still alive I will definitely 1v1 with you. I’ll get you lynched and if you somehow don’t flip scum I’ll happily let Town lynch me.

Again, why wait? Why do tomorrow what you can do today?

A 1V1 later in the game is a tactic scum are willing to use. (I never have as scum, mind you, 'cause I know I'll lose 98% of the time. ) A 1v1 early in the game is something that locks the scum in, trapping them. They're left without an escape. MoI's plan is to 1V1 me on day three, and get me lynched, living 'til day four. That's a whole heck of a lot farther away than 1V1'ing me today, with him if victorious getting dayvigged D3 and him if he loses getting lynched D2. It gives him time to prepare a fakeclaim, it gives him time to instruct his buddies, it gives him time to prepare, it gives the scum more time to manipulate the town, it gives him more time to find a way out, or to minimize the damage.

So again. Why wait?

Specifically it indicates that his stance (All the Scum are on the Tammy Wagon) is ludicrous and that Town Mastin would know it was such. Therefore that line of thought is coming from Scum Mastin.

A look into MD will show this to be false. I've quite clearly shown why I can, have, and WILL take this stances in a game, if it's what the circumstances say.
Again, arbitrarily declaring certain number on, certain number off, is just that--an arbitrary, meaningless callout. It's the circumstances which show the truth. And just like in 1377, the circumstances here show that all the scum are on, and none of them are off. Saying otherwise isn't reasonable or even logical. It's quite the opposite: because it ignores the context, it's invalid.

But sure. If it gets you to switch your votes onto me, go ahead and believe it.
Again. MoI versus me.

Today.
Not tomorrow.

TODAY.

[mastin2]

Also,

Claim: Meryl Silverburg, VT

.

Why am I doing this?
Because if I were scum, I would be locking myself into a claim early, trapping myself. There's no backing out of it.
I do so now, because again, leaders lead by example, and I want to FORCE MoI to do the same.

FORCE him to claim, not only his name, but his role. Lock him in. Give him no wiggle room. Force him to lock into a claim, with no chance to backtrack.

[mastin2]

As for 2254, the answer to it is itself presented in the last line--I was busy. I had less than five minutes, so I didn't have much to say. Instead, I let out that line which I have been dying to say for a long time, even though I knew it was not a good answer and would risk blowing my credibility. (I even have a post in my QT about it. Says, essentially, "

Dang

, that felt good. Was incredibly stupid to do, but it felt good." )

[mastin2]

Note no claim of role, though.

[mastin2]

And again, this shows MoI's scum motive.
If he were town, he'd know that whatever his role were, the scum couldn't kill him without sacrificing me. That's a trade worth taking.
As scum, he knows that locking himself into a specific role will leave him vulnerable down the line.


Also, this is once more addressing me as if I'm town.

[mastin2]

Basically,

Scum have everything to lose by locking themselves in and nothing to gain.

This is what MoI is doing

.

[mastin2]

WC continues to scum up the thread.

MoI is a viable lynch.
Tammy is not.
I'd rather no-lynch than Tammy lynch.
I'd rather self-lynch myself than Tammy.
I'd prefer MoI be lynched, because once more, his play is nothing but scum motivated.

/busy.

[mastin2]

Almost as poor as mastins self death over tammy. I mean wtf is everyone smoke. Suicide self over a guilty.

Yes.

I'd rather lynch myself than Tammy.

Tammy's useful. Tammy's an asset. The scum want that asset lynched.
I want to force them to either nightkill her or let her devastate their team. (See also--the AV shot that people are conveniently ignoring.)
And if my death served to give her at least an extra day, bring it on.

But of course, best of all would be an MoI lynch.

[mastin2]

So it would appear I was the one the messenger chose to receive a message.

Reading stuff now, but should announce this:

Mod: V/LA until next week.

Completely forgot that this was Thanksgiving week, which means limited to no access Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday (obv) and maybe Friday with an obvious Saturday and Sunday.
I'll see what I can do, but I know for a fact that Wednesday and Thursday are a no-go (as in, zero possibility of access) days at a minimum. Quite the inconvenience, but anyway,

VOTE: MagnaofIllusion.

[mastin2]

I think Kise's input is pretty solid and augments everything I said yesterday.

Note that MoI has completely forgotten overnight that he locked into a 1V1 with me.
And note that he's continued not to claim, even after the night's over.

[mastin2]

Also, this is something I thought of over the weekend as a possibility.

Spoiler: Setup spec

I'm less than certain of it, but it would kinda make a weird sort of sense.

I still think that this game is single-faction, but it's

possible

that it's multiscum, and that both scum factions thought Tammy was a member of the opposite scum faction, hence their wagon on her. If that were true, AV-Aco-MoI would be one scumteam, obviously, but the other wouldn't be so clear-cut. Kise would be on it, but if multiscum, snifit wouldn't be a partner. WC would likely be scum, but the third member would be a little more ambiguous. Probably not myk, but possibly one of the birds.

It'd make some sort of strange sense, with people asking why others think it's single-faction, when they (possibly) know it's multiscum, and would as mentioned above help explain the speculation about Tammy being day-killing scum.

That said, again, the above is only my speculation for if the game's multi-scum. Since it's probably not, I'm going to continue as if it weren't.

Kise and Aco have my attention besides MoI.

Your behavior during last day seemed to look like you where way above this bar. What make you so confident? Have you already been so confident before? Have you already been so confident and failed?

What makes me so confident? Experience. I'd be the first to admit that my scumhunting is

far

from perfect; I

have

made mistakes before. But since my return, I've been right on the money. Scum have been pulling stunts which allow them to escape unnoticed that I pick up on. It takes me a while to find them (anywhere from half to a full game phase on average), but once I do, things just click into place. The cases write themselves, and all I have to do is bring them to the light. There's a reason scum have been killing me almost every game, and considering killing me in those games where they don't. Because--while my reads may not start strong--I am

very

good at picking up on patterns, on picking up on "what are the scum doing this game?" and getting into the scum mind-set.

The scum mind-set this game was that Tammy was a threat, which they needed eliminated. They needed to push it through, to muddy the waters, to throw up a storm, hammering in the same redundant arguments for why Tammy was the right lynch. (And if multiscum, believed they were legitimately hunting opposite scumteam.) They literally had no choice but to have her dead, and it quite frankly

needed

to be by lynch. Double-day with power roles added into the mix is gamebreakingly powerful, and no matter what they say to the contrary, Tammy would have given us that power. They needed to raise arguments which appeared to be reasonable, they needed to gather allies (such as the birds and of course Benmage), and (for the most part) they needed to avoid pointing attention to themselves, which is exactly the tactics the members of the Tammy wagon used.

Contrary to what AP said, I wasn't

that

confident on FP. I made myself appear that way, in order to push the lynch through, but I did my research on FP, found similarities in his play during 1377 to town play, but ultimately came up inconclusive. FP was more like 60-80% scum in my mind, lynched more for information than for anything else, as I had some great interactive tells if FP were scum and some decent leads if FP were town. And also contrary to what AP said, I did show doubt in my reads the next day, as I rapid-fire posted to try and re-establish my reads. (In other words, the doubt was there, it was just subtle. Exaggerating doubt to make it obvious is a scumtell from me, since I don't do that as town.)

[mastin2]

They literally had no choice but to have her dead, and it quite frankly

needed

to be by lynch.

The assumptions you have here lead to me being 100% confirmed town in your eyes. Do you want to walk this back or can we lynch you now?

Except, they don't. I've already explained in crystal-clear detail the difference between you and Tammy. Khan's already explained in great detail the difference between you and Tammy. Everyone off the Tammy wagon has already explained the difference between you and Tammy.

The points are there, in our isos. We lay out in detail why the scum needed her dead yesterday.

And we also lay out in detail why you're, in contrast, a very good lynch.

And let's assume, just for a second, that you're hypothetically town.
The scum can endgame a PGO. They don't need the PGO killed, least of all in the hands of a player who if town is a complete moron. They don't even need the PGO lynched, since again, the PGO presents no threat to them. As long as they leave the PGO untouched, there's nothing about the PGO which is a threat. The PGO only helps them, via town roles doubting the PGO claim and targeting the PGO, and/or the town doubting the PGO claim and pushing it through. There's pretty much zero scum motive to push for a lynch on the PGO, since again, the PGO once it's known to be a PGO is completely and totally harmless to them.

It's the exact opposite of Tammy. During the day, I imagine the scum

can't

endgame her, because she can still shoot. Maybe during the night, they could, especially since she wasn't bulletproof. They do need her killed, especially since she is a competent player who was clearly showing a town mindset. They could kill her, yes, and had we not lynched her, they would have, but because they could push her mislynch (AND I DO CALL IT A MISLYNCH!), they did so. Tammy had been shown to shoot scum. Tammy had been shown willing to play ball with the town, to roll with their ideas. Her role was already known and PROVEN, so there was no town doubt. She was an extreme threat, hindering them every step of the way. There was EVERY scum motive to want her dead, as laid out in my iso, among others. Tammy, once known to be a day-SK, was even MORE of a threat to them than Tammy was before she was known to be a day-SK.

The difference is as clear as night and day.

'Course, it's all pointless to talk about the difference between scum pushing the PGO vs. scum pushing the day-SK, since Aco

isn't

a PGO and is, in fact, still scum.

[mastin2]

This isn't some random hypothetical - it was EXPLICITLY PROPOSED that Tammy shoot me yesterday.

We've been over this. Tammy was pressured into proving her claim. There were something like ten names being floated around as vig targets. Most of the "Vig Aco" requests came

after

(not before) Tammy had already vigged, as vig suggestions for day three. And

that

is what Tammy agreed to do.

Only, whoops! Herp derp, she was lynched. So much for that!

[mastin2]

You seem incredibly angry the SK is dead.

Do I have reason not to be?
Tammy gave us two lynches. Nope! Not any more.
Tammy was the one role who could get rid of any doubt on the PGO safely for the town. Nope! Not any more.
Tammy was the one role who was more of a threat to the scum than Benmage, providing them with someone other than him to shoot. Nope! She got lynched rather than nightkilled.

Why, exactly, would I be happy that someone like that was lynched?


We're in the exact same boat as we were yesterday. Only, now there's no cop, and now there's no second lynch. We're no closer to finding scum, because we have ZERO information today that we did not possess yesterday. We knew Tammy was a day-SK. We knew Benmage was a cop. We knew his result. So what, exactly, do we have today that wasn't there yesterday?

Absolutely nothing. Tammy was the most godawful lynch I've seen in my nearly 100 games on MS. The nature of the game is an informed minority against the uninformed majority. The uninformed majority gains the advantage by gaining information. Tammy's lynch? Zero info. Benmage's nightkill? Zero info.

Why, exactly, would any town player be proud of a Tammy lynch?

[mastin2]

Hey mastin: bad or good thing that the SK is not around to kill the PGO for you?

Answer, go.

Need I answer?

That question answers itself. It's bad. So bad, it should never have happened. Again, the scum have no reason to want the PGO claim dead. The town has

every

reason to want the PGO claim dead, and Tammy was the

best

way to do so.

[mastin2]

It is very clear that you wanted him to hang yesterday or today. Given how your posts dripped of "you are locked in a 1v1 with me", i'd consider that you believe you have a reasonable chance of success. However, 2278 gives the impression that you would have satisfied yourself with forcing a MoI claim so that it'd come to hurt him afterwards.

You're gonna have to explain to me how these are mutually exclusive. Heck, even how they could possibly be detrimental to one another. They augment each other.

MoI should be lynched, but if not, then I'd take a consolation prize of him being locked into a claim, so that he can't back out of it, as he's attempted to do with his 1V1 versus me. Yes, I was the one who suggested the 1V1, but MoI clearly said he was accepting it. And now he's trying to back down, push a miklynch (spelling intentional), and force the matter on us day four. Where he'll try to say, "Oh, guess myk was town, but Mastin's still scum", try to get me lynched, and if successful, get into day five without harm. And if I don't get my way, without having claimed as well.

Bluntly, MoI can (and will) get away with not one, not two, but

three

days (plus a fourth of his predecessor) without harm, all the while coordinating with his scumteam, preparing them for victory, where he can eliminate all his opposition be it by nightkill or by lynch. MoI should claim, and MoI should hang.

Can you explain me what was your aim, and what did you expect (odds of success / failure, etc)

My primary aim was, to at all costs, avert the Tammy lynch. I failed, but my secondary objective was to get scum lynched. In this case, by locking MoI into not only a claim, but also a 1V1 which if he tried to back out of, he'd be confscum. (He did.) It had a tertiary objective as well--by locking myself into a 1V1 with MoI, I avoid my otherwise all-too-common fate of being the nightkill. (Most of the times, I'm fine with being NK'd, but in this game, if I got nightkilled, people would ignore the reasons why: because I'm on the track of the scum, because I know their plan, I can see into their heads and am hunting them down.) Since MoI is scum, he can't kill me without it being effectively suicide.

The same thing applies for today, by the way. I'm going to, at all costs, try and avoid a mislynch such as myk. I'm going to, as hard as I can, try to get scum lynched. I'm going to get MoI locked into a claim as soon as possible, and if I somehow fail on both objectives, my 1V1 with MoI ensures I live to push his lynch tomorrow.
The one thing I lost was any chance of being NK'd, since I'm now a claimed VT locked into a 1V1 with another player. (Risk.) There was everything to gain by locking this in, be it a MoI claim, MoI lynch, another scum's lynch, me living to push scum, and even giving me leverage to avoid further mislynches. (Reward.)
/Gotta go.

[mastin2]

Quick post; not much time.

Yet another reason why [Elo]’s a great lynch after mykonian.

Did I say

a

mislynch?
Make that

two

mislynches, and four days, and day six.
"Oh, myk was town? Well, he sucks. Elo's still scum, though, with Mastin who defends Elo."
"Oh, Elo was town? Well, Elo sucks. Mastin's still scum, though, so let's lynch him today."
"Mastin was town? Oh, well, nevermind on that whole 1V1 thing. Mastin was just an idiot who didn't know what he was doing; ignore him, please."

Mastin, aren't you speculating HEAVILY on where the scumteam is based off of wagon analysis from Yesterday?

Wagon analysis which we already had before the end of yesterday, yes. The Tammy wagon's composition didn't change at all from when I called it scum-driven to it actually going through.

Hence, why we learned nothing we didn't already know. We knew Tammy's flip. We knew who was on the wagon. What did a few deadline voters on her tell us? Nothing. The scum were already on the wagon, as I had outlined. Again. We knew Tammy's flip. We knew what her wagon would be made of. We knew everything then that we do now. Nothing has changed. The Tammy wagon was awful, and I'm lynching exclusively from those on it. In particular, MoI and Aco and Kise.

[mastin2]

Except that you paid the price of claiming for that. Which was unnecessary.

Don't see how it was unnecessary. If I wanted MoI to claim yet I didn't do so myself, despite me being the one forcing the 1V1, then it'd not only be hypocritical, but incredibly stupid, as it'd blow any and all credibility I have earned. The claim was a necessary part of the 1V1. If there was no claim, then I could do

exactly what MoI is doing

, and weasel my way out of the 1V1 to avoid being locked into it.
List the scum motive for locking into a 1V1 with someone who does not share your alignment on day two. It paints a giant red target on you saying "LYNCH ME", and if you get lynched first, says to the town "HIS OPPONENT WAS TOWN".
List the scum motive for accepting a 1V1, backing out of it, and then offering not one, but at least TWO people to lynch before considering the person said 1V1 is against.
...Do I need to say that twice?
List the town motive for locking into a 1V1 with someone you're as sure as you can be is scum with just a VT PM. Ohwait, I already did.
List the town motive for accepting a 1V1, then backing out of it while still calling the instigator of said 1V1 scum, while pushing other lynches. (Yeah, I got nothin'.)

It's there. MoI said it.

Tomorrow if I am still alive I will definitely 1v1 with you. I’ll get you lynched and if you somehow don’t flip scum I’ll happily let Town lynch me.

I offered the 1V1, he accepted the 1V1. And yet, now, he's pushing mykonian over me, he's pushing El over me (said that El needs to die tomorrow, with myk dieing today), and might even be pushing zab over me.

He's backing out. He's specifically avoiding locking in. Again, he said he would. His posts even before I made the offer pushed for a Mastin lynch. (I got the idea from MoI's posts, after all. I forget which, but probably some on page 90 where he says that he'd lynch me.) His posts after my offer said he'd take it.

And yet, now, he's pushing me to the backburner.
His words supported a 1V1 yesterday, yet he wanted out of it.
And today, he's followed through, doing everything he can to avoid the 1V1.

Why?

Because he doesn't want to be lynched, which if he took the 1V1, he would, because I'm town and he's not.
If he were town and legitimately thought I was scum, he'd be all over me. He'd be pushing for my lynch, thinking that I was scum. But he's not. Instead, he's going for everyone BUT me. Yes, he's still calling me scum, and everything I do as being scum, but he's not pushing for my lynch. He's pushing for the lynch of my "scumbuddies'", myk, El, and maybe now Zab.

I repeat.
This.
Is.
Not.
Town.
MoI.

[mastin2]

Once more, this is why MoI is scum.
He's calling me scum, but he's treating me as town.

I basically humored him enough to get the Tammy lynch actually accomplished yesterday.

What does humoring scum do to help get a Tammy lynch? If anything, it only serves as a detriment to said Tammy lynch, as said "scum" is pushing AWAY from a Tammy lynch.

Because he has no role-based reason for his claim (since he claimed VT)

And again, he's treating me as if I'm town. Yes, I have no role-based reason for my claim, but if I were scum, I would.

(Off topic, but his next line is also a misrep, since I have been hammering home point after point to show the scum intent, to show the scum motive.)

But none so blatantly as here:

My response is - He's wrong. And I'm a better scum-hunter than him anyway so if he is Town he should just sheep me.

Again. MoI is calling me scum. He's calling me scum with myk, he's calling El scum, he might be calling Zab scum, and yet, he's not pushing me. He wants me on his side, saying here that I'm town who should follow him.

Again. If I were scum, as he has claimed since I began pushing him, he wouldn't brush my attacks off to deal with "other scum". He'd be pushing me as being scum. He'd follow through on the 1V1 I offered, because from a town-MoI perspective, there's nothing to lose (since he's said it himself--he can beat me in a Wall War) and everything to gain (a guaranteed scum lynch from town-MoI's perspective). Yet...he's backed out of it.

He's avoiding the confrontation.

He doesn't want to lock into a fight with me, just as he doesn't want to lock into a claim as I have.
Again, there's zero town motive for his actions. There's pile after pile of scum motive.

[mastin2]

Why is the 1v1 a good thing? Please elaborate on your position and reasoning.

Why don't you want to make a commitment to mykonian read?

Again, this is why MoI is scum.
His position is faked--if it were legitimate, he'd know the reason why entering a 1V1 with a scumread as town is nothing but good.
Why?

Do I need to repeat that statement for you?

Entering a 1V1 with a

scumread

as town is nothing but good.

If he thought I was scum, he'd be jumping at the chance to lynch me.

Nope! Let's go mislynch myk first! Then let's go mislynch El! Then let's maybe-mislynch Zab! Or if not,

then

entertain the thought of 1V1 on a day far closer to lylo!

Yeah.

[mastin2]

Can you drop this, please? Not wanting to be lynched is a null tell.

1: Like hell it is.
As town, especially as a VT, sure, not being lynched is better than being lynched, but there's absolutely nothing which makes them unwilling to sacrifice themselves if they think they are contributing to a greater cause. Ergo, they have (or should have) zero fear of being mislynched outside of lylo, since their lynch gives information, cleans up the thread, makes them conftown and people can use the stances of the dead person. (This is much how I got Khan lynched in Desert Mafia--I lynched myself to lynch him. It makes sense in context.)

2: But this wasn't really the point of that post. MoI's showing a survivalistic attitude--again, very uncharacteristic of town. Town mentality is basically summed up as, "Well, I know I'm town, so I would

prefer

not to be lynched, but it's okay; the town can recover from my death, and it gives good info." MoI is showing quite the opposite, trying to avoid the lynch at all costs.

Mastin...you scum?

Not in a million years. MoI, however, is. And I refuse to drop my push on him. Over my dead body, in fact. Sure, I'll also vote for those who I think are his scumbuddies (Aco and Kise for a start), but I'm not going to push for their lynch; I'm not dropping MoI. I guarantee it; you can count on me to consistently push this through.

MoI is scum, who knows that I'm town. I know I'm on the right track with him, with Kise, with Aco.
You know I'm stubborn. I do not compromise unless it's on someone I also think is scum. (Okay, so I will even if I don't think they're scum, under one circumstance: if the dominant wagon is on someone I strongly believe to be town and/or useful to the town. As with Tammy yesterday.) I'm not backing down now. I'm not changing my reads.
(By the way, I'm absolutely convinced the messenger is town. I kinda got the impression they assumed their name would be sent with the message, even though it's anonymous. Their list of reads to me does look like town as well, so when the messenger does claim, they're conftown. And as a hint, they're not anybody I've been pushing.)

[mastin2]

Happy scumday, mod.

I dunno, I dont like that you both keep tunneling each other. Scum might be elsewhere.

Which is exactly what he wants.

I've been trying to avoid a head-on confrontation, a wall-to-wall battle, for exactly this reason: Because it makes people think townVtown, when it's not. Yes, I'm obvtown, but...

MoI im still not sure but his case on myk makes so much sense and its what ive been pointing out for a while.

...This is the exact reason that MoI is scum. He's using words which make a lot of sense to push on people who are easy to wagon.

Me, easy enough; people go "WTF?!?" with my posting and were not fond of Cyber's.
Myk, easy enough; people didn't like his predecessor and haven't liked some of his actions. (Mind you, they're ignoring mindset and intention. What's the scum motive for myk's actions? I've looked, I see the possibility, and I'll acknowledge that it

is

possible

to make a picture with a scum mindset. However, you also have to ask the counter-question: What's the town motive for myk's actions? And when looking, that is far stronger.)
El, pretty easy, since El's new to the game and El replaced RC, who was mislynch bait. (Bait I, for instance, almost fell into.)
Zab, easy, since Zab isn't the strongest player. (But this is Zab's town-play.)

He's making cases which appear to be logical based off of words, based off of surface-play, but his cases at their core are not addressing the fundamental nature of motive*.

*Okay, so he does paint a picture with myk to show scum intent, but only myk. He hasn't shown why I-as-scum would do anything I've done, nor any other suspect than myk. And as I said, though he paints the picture for myk-as-scum, and while I can

see

the

possible

picture, it's weaker than the town picture, the town reasons and the town motive.

In other news - was there anything of value in the message you received?

It's exactly as Tammy said--the messenger gave me a list of reads. That's the best way to summarize it. Sure, I could easily paraphrase what the reads were, but for obvious reasons, I would prefer not to. The messenger is town, and giving contents of the message can help the scum identify who the messenger is.

Feel like town MoI would agree in a 1v1 with Mastin, while continuning to argue with anyone else about everything. I feel like that is his normal scumhunting style and right now he's phoning it in or faking it.

Exactly my point. >_<
This is not his normal scumhunting as town.

She had proven she wasn’t going to test Acosmist’s claim when she shot ThAd.

Saying this more times won't make it any more true than it was the first time. She

was

willing, but most of the people telling her to shoot Aco suggested it

after

she had already shot ThAd, and she only shot ThAd because she was pressured into proving her claim then and there. Had she not been pressured to make a kill immediately, had people been allowed to get a consensus on her shooting Aco, she would have.

and then being lynched for not following orders.

Tammy shooting Aco: probability of living, compared to possibility of dieing.
Tammy shooting someone other than Aco, despite town ordering her to: Certainty of dieing, no possibility of living. We spelled this out yesterday. She could shoot Aco and be playing to her wincon. By

not

shoot Aco, she'd be playing

against

her wincon. This is not rocket science, and we laid this out yesterday. It's no less true now than it was then.

He’s saying that Acos (who he calls scum in that post) is only thinking about voting him because I am “crusading” against him (aka he is getting an unexpected avenue of possible attack from an unexpected source). Yet I’m scum (that where his vote currently is). So why is Scum-Acosmist only considering voting mykonian because Scum-MoI is on a crusade? It wouldn't be unexpected if we were scum together. That doesn’t make any sense if Mykonian actually believe that.

Quite the opposite to me. I don't see any contradiction at all.

I do find it likely that one of them is scum and one is Town given the fact that an anonymous Messenger (and both Tammy and mastin have said the person is anonymous) and Neighborizor could create a rather potent synergy with a Cop if all are Town (Cop and Messenger are Neighborized – Cop gets results and Messenger relays those results via anonymous message to an outside party which also serves as a scum-hunting tool the first time by seeing the reaction of the play to the message).

MoI, if you wanted to prove that the roles weren't town, this was not the way to do it. Role synergy like this is

exactly

the kind of thing a mod would have in a game. Town roles are meant to augment and compliment each other in a well-designed setup, with scum roles designed to disrupt and break them apart. Synergy-->town. So you just helped prove that Nero and the messenger are town.

Guys, we are somehow derping harder with Mastin on Vla.

There's a reason for that:
It's called I'm making sense, I'm town, and I'm one of the only voices of good reason.

---

Aco versus Yates is a Yates win.
Why?

The answer's with AV. Look at his iso--the only two he attacks are jason and Yates. Neither's scum.
More than that, Yates has consistently been raising good points, been scumhunting logically, and been showing a good thought process. His train of thought is so incredibly easy to follow as town it's amazing, but his train of thought as scum is broken and jarred.

Aco, on the other hand, has been consistently OMGUS'ing the entire game. No, seriously. Name one suspect. ONE. I dare you to. That Aco has attacked. Who didn't attack him first. I can't really think of any, since every time Aco attacks someone, it comes

after

that player has attacked him. Never before.

[mastin2]

OMGUS isn't a scumtell though.

Not once or twice, no.
Consistently and repeatedly, though, it is.

But, in general, people's opinion on the correct play wrt Tammy is not alignment indicative.

Except, it is, because as laid out, leaving Tammy alive-->town, pushing her lynch-->scum. I'm not dropping this. The Tammy lynch was scum-driven, and I'm not going to back down on that, ever.

Shooting him risked her dying as a response.

Again. Possible risk of dieing, versus guaranteed death if refusing. Saying Tammy wouldn't shoot Aco is pretty blatantly false, since she was willing to cooperate with us and had been doing so. She was going to get lynched if she didn't shoot Aco. We explicitly laid this out, with a "no excuses" policy. She couldn't wiggle her way out of that. There was no place she could have shot other than Aco today, because if she did, she'd end up speed-lynched for refusal to cooperate. We laid out a clear shot plan, that if she didn't play ball, she died. If the town wanted her to shoot Aco (we did), she'd shoot Aco or be lynched. Like I said. Possible risk of death versus guaranteed death. Add in her overall town mindset in the game, and she'd take the shot guaranteed.

This is why I'm not dropping it. Because these arguments were laid out crystal clear yesterday and ignored. She literally had NO CHOICE. To say she did is a flat-out lie.

Spoiler: Setup

So that is the kind of synergy you put in your Mini Normal right ... a Miller / Roleblocker/ Doctor. Oh that's right ... no synergy there at all. In fact just ways for all three roles to be disbelieved.

The whole idea of that game, though, was to break expectations. I specifically made that setup to mess with the typical expectations of Miller/Cop/Roleblocker/Doctor, in that typically, you expect either the roleblocker or the miller to be the scum there. (Though at the time the setup was made, far fewer miller-claims were doubted than in current site meta, since scum fakeclaiming miller was less common at the time.)
However, even with that in mind, the setup still synched well--the roleblocker and doctor working together could have (and almost did!) trapped the scum. By shutting down their ability to get a kill through, it'd give the town more days to get a lynch, AND force the mafia cop to give more results. And if the miller were considered town (they weren't, thanks to a normally-quite-good player being apathetic), then that'd further hinder the scum's efforts.

The synch was there, it's just that it wasn't utilized. From the perspective of a moderator, the setup worked well. It was slightly more swingy than preferred, but was still balanced. Yes, from the perspective of a player, the roles didn't augment each other, yes, from the perspective of a player, the roles were detrimental to each other, but from the perspective of a moderator, they worked well.

And from the perspective of a moderator, a messenger, a neighbor, and a cop working well makes a whole HECK of a lot more sense than a scum-messenger and/or scum-neighborizer working against a cop. Keep in mind also that a scum-messenger is a fairly useless role: why would they send a message to anyone? It does nothing role-related. It can't even be used to communicate with a scumbuddy, since it's sent at the end of the night, not during the day phase. It's an entirely useless scum role, but an INCREDIBLY strong town role.

Nero's also quite town this game, and furthermore, the neighborizer makes sense as town. It augments the town messenger, giving the town the chances to coordinate away from the eyes of scum. Rather than posting just during the day, town members in the neighborhood can coordinate secretly during the night, with the messenger being the extent of that.

It makes no sense from a moderation perspective to make those roles opposite one another, and it also makes no sense from a playing perspective. The messenger is town; I can guarantee that. And Nero's the neighborizer; he's also town.

[mastin2]

@mastin: I know it's taboo to agree with the 'enemy', but please check 2581 without bias and tell what you think of Els.

I'll admit, El's play on the surface is somewhat questionable, just as RC's play on the surface was quite questionable. However, beyond the obvious reasons of interactions (you call bias, I call scumhunting)--rather, the lack of bad ones--I also look at the mindset. My memory on RC's a bit rusty, so I'd have to double-check, but I'm pretty certain I saw a lot more town in his mind than scum.

El shows a similar picture. I can see him as being scum backtracking, but a far stronger picture is that he's town, frustrated at an inability to properly vocalize his stances, who's trying (yet failing) to show what the intention of his posts are.

MoI needs to die if he ever mislynches

Great, lynch him today! He already did.

For the record, myk's similar to El, like here. This is not a scum post. It's pretty much as strong as townposting can get.

@EVERYONE-THOUGHTS ON MOI AND KISE DERPING IT UP?

Refer to my vote on MoI, and refer to a control+F of Kise in my iso. Both scum. (As is Aco.)

/juggling.

[mastin2]

Anyone voting for pidgey seriously (or calling Amrun scum) is prob-scum

I'm going to flip this around and say anyone suspecting jason seriously and/or calling his slot scum is prob-scum.

Why?

AV's why. Look at where his nice juicy vote was placed and tell me that's a buddy-vote.

[mastin2]

Elscouta - 5 (Cheery Dog, Kise, Acosmist, AngryPidgeon, MagnaofIllusion)
Hmm...this seems strangely familiar......

Oh, yeah!

Tammy - 10 (snifit, Kise, Benmage, pidgey, WrathChild, MagnaofIllusion, Acosmist, AngryPidgeon, mykonian, Elscouta)
That's 'cause every single name on here was on the Tammy lynch!
It even has the same two people as the first two votes! (Cheery Dog is snifit.)

Yeah. This will go well.

El's one of the most blatant mislynches possible. Just as Tammy was not a scum-lynch, El will not be, either.

[mastin2]

Help us narrow down the Tammy wagon then.

At the absolute most number of scum possible in this game, the Tammy wagon would still be at least half-town.
The last votes on it due to deadline (that is, myk, Yates, and El) are actually the

least

suspicious. You know this trend all too well, with the all-town wagon in 1377 due to deadline. During deadlines, towns want a lynch, even if it goes against what they personally desire.

This is why I said that we gained nothing from the Tammy lynch. All the names on there before those last three were there for nearly the entirety of the day.
So when I say the Tammy lynch contains the entirety of the scumteam, I mean it.
But it's also entirely in the first seven.

As for myk being town, that read is entirely separate from MoI. I don't give a damn about MoI's scumreads. He could be bussing, he could be pushing town. Doesn't make a difference. He's scum.
I concluded myk was town on my own, entirely without MoI pushing him. I've explained the reasons before. Though it is possible to see myk as scum, it is far easier to see myk as town.

Yes certainly no Town player would ever want a Scum player like Tammy lynched.

Except, Tammy wasn't scum. She was a town-mindset day-SK, which for all intensive purposes was acting like a dayvig. Claiming otherwise goes against all in-thread evidence, from her posts to her scumhunting style to her shots to her promises to her post-lynch posts, everything. She was shooting as if she were town.

What people should also be considering is that Mastin is focusing on the Day 2 lynch (on scum) and not the Day 1 mislynch.

Oh, I haven't forgotten. BC = WC, a consistent suspect of mine. Snifit = Cheery Dog, who while not a consistent suspect, has been in and out of the zone, and is currently on the wrong side of null.
There's a reason I've been pressuring them. And AP's also there. AP's currently on the town side of null, but he's

dangerously

close to being on the wrong side.

[mastin2]

Thor, to answer your question:

Vote: Jason

Overreaction to Nero, terrible reaction to Zoro.

Eh, replace Zoro with whoever he voted for claiming Snake. Acosmist?

The beginning of the MoI case is that AV, the flipped scum player, confused one of his scumbuddies claiming (Aco) with another (Zoro/MoI).

Though this was the beginning of the suspicion, it soon grew. Interactive tells between Kise (scum), Aco (scum), and Zoro (also scum) all pointed to them being tied together as a team.

More than that, his iso is, in a word, shit. Nothin. Zilch. Nothing good, but lots of bad.

Then, MoI came in, playing to his scum meta rather than his town meta. Instead of taking advantage of a ridiculously powerful role and using it to break the game wide open, MoI chose to lynch it, while simultaneously (as Nero has been saying) trying to discredit pretty much everyone off of the wagon--
And even took some shots at the cop, Benmage, to try and throw his credibility into doubt.

He continued to protect Aco and has been pretty much ignoring Kise consistently.

Though MoI says a lot which on the surface looks good, it's in his motive, his mindset, and his intention that his alignment becomes evident, as he's not pushing things from a town perspective.

[mastin2]

Was he just on a focused SK hunt, or what? Seems like a Dayvig that shoots scum should be scum's problem - why'd she get lynched at all?

My point exactly--she

shouldn't

have been lynched.
The only reason she was is because Benmage was an arrogant idiot,

Spoiler: benmage rambling

(yes, Benmage, I am calling you out--you lost a game which DC gave you the chance to win by immediately voting without a second thought in lylo, ignoring Occam's razor with regards to setup design. You might have once been a good town player, but right now, I hold very little respect for you--you might earn it back in a future game when you prove you can actually put aside your ego and accept you're not a scumhunting god, and/or actually get reads which are consistently good*, but until I see it for myself, I hold none)

the scum wanted her dead, there were a few idiot-town on there, and deadline was coming up so there was no viable counter-wagon. (Also, we couldn't get a consistent counterwagon. Aco/pidgey/MoI were all attempted, with none of them getting quite enough support.)

But you're completely correct--it WAS the scum's problem.

But why is attacking a cop openly scummy?

Have you seen how Benmage is now dead?
How he died last night, despite being a claimed cop?
How he died last night, despite N1 having no deaths at all? (Which strongly suggests protective PRs are present.)

That

is why. Throwing doubt on the cop is a perfect way to ensure that the cop is not protected by protective PRs. And despite how much I don't respect Benmage right now (Benmage, read the spoilers, please?), a cop is still a cop, to be protected so they can get more results. The fact that he died anyway suggests that either the scum had a way to kill him through protection (Strongman), or that he wasn't protected. (It can't be 'cause the protective role was blocked, since the scum RB is already dead.) If the latter, then MoI accomplished his job quite well, no?

Spoiler: more for Benmage

*Your one good read that game was LV. You lynched Leon, who was obvtown to everyone dead, you spearheaded the charter lynch, and you voted Evan immediately in lylo. 1/3 is NOT a good record. At

best

, that's average. Then there's this game, where you appealed to fear and focused on lynching a serial killer--not scum. That was your one and only real read. Tammy-as-scum, your result. You might have had other reads, but you were so focused on Tammy that they've been completely lost to the town. Even if Tammy HAD been groupscum, that level of obsession over pushing her would obfuscate your other reads, and you should be aware of the problem that'd present, for people to think that was your only true read.
So you might be raging at me for saying the above now, but I'm only saying it because I WANT you to be better, Benmage. I WANT to hold respect for you. I WANT for you to be that scumhunting god. It's just that right now, with your current play...you're not.

I hold no grudge. I might be a bit bitter, but I've had far worse experiences, so your play doesn't bother me. It's that I just wish it were better than it is now.

[mastin2]

Im starting to wonder if Mastin is just saying bullshit intentionally because he knows its expected of him.

That

is

my scum meta, which I'll admit I'm largely playing to. Call it a bad habit, but I'm fighting a losing battle and everyone knows it. I'm a good 90% sure myk's town (see also, this, which I found in my research for a new MD post I'm working on at the moment), and about 85% sure El's town as well.

I can stop the lynch of one, but I'm not going to be able to dismantle both wagons. I've been trying. I've been failing. Simply put, too many people play to the surface and ignore intent. And those that

are

looking at intent are saying that they see the scum picture. If none were present, it'd make my job easier, but quite frankly, it's there. It's not very strong, mind you. The picture, while possible to connect, makes less sense than the town-picture I see painted before me.

But I'm having a hard time explaining

why

it's a stronger town picture. Hence, why I'm losing.

So yes, I'm fully playing to my scum meta...of taking a stance, trying to push it, but ultimately not pushing it hard enough to stop the lynch, so that when I'm proven right, I have more credibility on future days. (The part about not pushing it hard enough to stop the lynch is unintentional in this case, simply because I'm trying, yet running out of steam. In a way, I've kinda already given up on winning the fight. I know, that's bad, but you have no idea how frustrating it is, to know you're right but be unable to prove it. Just like 1377.)
Myk will flip town, El will flip town. And then people will begin to push my lynch, yet I will flip town, too.

I've been in enough games to have a dang-good idea of how things play out. I'm doing everything I can to prevent it, but deep down, I've told myself already that I've lost, and when I'm fighting my own subconscious as well as half the town, it's incredibly difficult.

So when you said “I will not vote Tammy and would rather I get lynched than her” are you indicating you aren’t Town or are just absolutely terrible?

Note how I said "towns". Not "townies". Towns, as a whole, want a lynch, even if it's not their preferred lynch and even if they think the person will flip town.
Townies, as players, are a little bit more, shall we say, wild. As members of the town, they frequently do the above, but if they think it is

just. that. stupid.

to lynch the strongest role in the game...
And you kinda proved my point, anyway. Yes, I was fully willing to get lynched day two, if it meant Tammy living. Lynched. Not just wagoned. Actually lynched, so that Tammy would have at least one more day to shoot, and/or the scum killing her and giving Benmage at least one more day to get results.

Heck, I'm fully willing to get lynched today to help prove my stances do not come from scum and that the town should sheep me in regards to MoI/Aco/Kise all being scum, and that everyone off the Tammy wagon is town. I've made my reads clear enough. (Though my BC/WC read might be changing thanks to Thor, the others still hold--snifit/Cheery on the wrong side of null, pidgey at null leaning town, AP at null leaning town.)

It's not going to happen, since enough players are smart enough to realize that I'm town, but not smart enough to realize that as town, I'm a competent scumhunter from mid-d2 onward.
(A fact that YOU, AP, should know better than anyone else--again, 1377 shows it perfectly. First half of d2 and all play before that, junk play with junk reads. Second half of d2 and onwards, spot-on play and spot-on reads, as I fought as hard as I could to stop the RM mislynch, while correctly pushing the entire scumteam of fitz/Kimor/UN.
This game, much the same. First half of d2, mostly-junk-reads, mostly-junk-play. Second half of d2, I clicked a switch, and suddenly, BAM! Nearly-perfect reads and nearly-perfect play. Fighting as hard as I could to stop the Tammy mislynch [AND I WILL CONTINUE CALLING IT SUCH, THANKYOUVERYMUCH], and now fighting as much as I can to stop the myk/El lynches.)

LINK TO HER POST LYNCH POSTS THAT OOZED TOWN!

Tammy's line of "I am always town" speaks for itself. She was playing as town, she was scumhunting like she would as town. Rather than show SK-like attributes of buddying to those defending her (such as me), she was scumhunting on them and showing caution, just as a town player being defended by others would. (Well, should. Da burds are completely ignoring MoI's defense of them. ) Most of all, she shot scum (the ultimate proof of her scumhunting) day one, and beyond that, chose not to shoot Benmage.

You can argue the last one as being survivalistic, but the fact of the matter is, she wasn't going to win the game. She could have chosen to screw the town over and shoot Benmage, hoping to write his result off as a gambit and/or as a framer and/or as Benmage's results being insane. Had she done so, in fact, it probably would have increased (rather than decreased) her chances of survival, as the town-dayvig mindset of cop-with-a-guilty-on-you is to shoot the claimed cop.

She didn't. She let him live, sealing her fate as being the lynch. You can't get much more town than that. For all intensive purposes, she was a dayvig. She shot like a dayvig, she scumhunted like a dayvig, she chose to let the town win and wished us luck after her lynch. She wasn't putting up appearances, either. She was lynched, it was clear she was lynched, there was no ambiguity to be had. So there was nothing to be gained in lying after her death, 'cause she's independently-aligned, not scum-aligned.

I'm calling it a mislynch for dang-good reason.

---

By the way, both AP and MoI have said my post where I say I haven't forgotten about the Melmond mislynch is an appeal to fear.
I was not aware that

giving reads

was an appeal to fear.

Also, it's quite ironic that they accuse me of appealing to fear, when they were the ones appealing to fear yesterday.
"Tammy will shoot Benmage!" No, she wouldn't.
"Tammy is BP!" No, she wasn't.
"Tammy is a member of a scum faction!"
No, she wasn't.

And the reasons why were clearly explained yesterday as well, yet they were never countered, with those lines repeated over and over again despite the fact that each had been methodically disproven. And all but the first are also evident in her flip, as she didn't flip member of a scum faction, and she didn't flip BP.

[mastin2]

El, you're town.
I get it.

I know you are.

I'm not going to lynch you.

But, uh, can't say the same for the rest of these guys.

So considering deadline's proximity, claiming should be done now rather than later.

[mastin2]

I'm the new Tammy.

Anyway, it should have been painfully obvious to anyone who's played any game in similar situations that El's refusal to claim was itself a claim. (I forget the timeframe of the lynch, so AP may or may not have been aware of this at the time of the lynch.)

But that said,
VOTE: MagnaofIllusion.

I'm reaffirming that both the messenger and the neighborizer are town.
Worth noting, Thor was neighborized (the timestamp says the 30th) along with me. I can confirm that Tammy did talk, AND that the neighborhood is night-talk only, so Nero wasn't telling any lie. His ability is X-shot, and instantaneous, as shown by both his dual-recruit last night and by Tammy being able to talk with him.

[mastin2]

Elscouta - 9 (

Cheery Dog

,

Acosmist

,

AngryPidgeon

,

MagnaofIllusion, Kise

, Thor665, Kublai Khan, Yates, jasonT1981)

I'm willing to be everyone after Thor was town.
El was obv-VT for the refusal to claim, but with deadline's proximity, a rush for a lynch and an understandable paranoia about El mean that the wagon on El--while wrong--was not entirely unjustified.
Also, Thor--who was WC--was killed. WC/BC were under quite the load of suspicion, so it means if he was killed, they had to have feared him somehow. (That, or they knew he was a PR.) If there were scum sheeping him (Khan/Yates/Jason), you'd expect for them to continue to let him live. (Also, Yates and Jason are both as good as conftown, and Khan's as town as I'll ever let myself read him as. )

[mastin2]

MoI and zab are scum together?

I buy it.

Great, then lynch MoI first.

[mastin2]

Mastin, can you explain why you think Mykonian is town for me (#BeConcise)?

Bluntly,
I follow myk's thought process as town. I'm more sure of it than ever before, in fact. I can see his train of thought, I can see where he comes from. His stances have a logical progression as town, while the scum picture is somewhat jarred and slightly broken. More than that, you mighta missed it in my MD article, but I linked to his old MD thread where he outlines how he plays as scum versus how he plays as town. As scum, he is a more calculated player, and this is not his scum-play. His focus is on scumhunting, not on keeping himself alive.

Compare him to El, in fact. Both show the same exact town trend--they'll address the cases against them, but they've been pushing their own reads consistently and stubbornly.

[mastin2]

Worth noting, Thor pushed on MoI and Kise quite a bit. Thor doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who likes to be subtle, so I'm pretty sure that aside from El, those two were his main suspects.

Also, he defended myk quite a bit. And defended Nero quite a bit.

And ended up dead for it.

Soyeah, MoI is the lynch.

[mastin2]

So, you think MoI is town, despite
-Throwing away a gamebreakingly powerful role and instead choosing to mislynch it d2, and
-Pushing a mislynch on El, who we now know to be town, and
-Pushing a mislynch on myk, who I now know to be town, and
-Pushing a mislynch on me, when I am town?
Wouldn't surprise me if MoI came in and began attacking Zab, either.

But I'm a good 90% sure Zab's playing inside his town meta right now, so that's not a lynch I'll support any time soon.

'Specially not when Aco--MoI's scumbuddy--is distancing MoI by putting him in the scumlist but refusing to actually lynch him.

[mastin2]

Except, MoI's meta as town suggests he'd have taken the gamebreakingly powerful strategy. I've seen him as town, and he won't waste an opportunity for one.
He did this game.

And it's more than being wrong. It's not so much who you're pushing, but why.

I do constantly re-evaluate, Yates.
Every damn day (not gameday, though I do do that as well ), more than any other player.

I think things through. I evaluate my stances. I review the evidence and look at what I know. I never tunnel, no matter how much it may seem like it.

I'm willing to acknowledge that MoI could be town. It's possible, yes. But it's not probable. He's not playing as town. He's playing with a survivalistic attitude, trying everything he can to get extra days in his life. Look at who he's pushed. He's pushing the easy mislynch myk. He pushed the easy mislynch El. Heck, the hardest lynch he's pushing is my own, and even then, that's not too hard to do, since I'm an extremely underrated player with an unjustified reputation for being anti-town. And on what MoI knows of me (I know more of him than he does of me), he'd believe me to be easy a-la-Palisade in Zachrulez's Large Normal.

He even backed his way out of the 1V1 successfully. His reasons for it were complete BS, but it slid away because he directed attention away from him and onto El and myk.

Again, this isn't confirmation bias. This is logic. MoI is playing to survive. He could be town, yes, but he isn't. He's pushing about every advantage he can, from myk to El to me to Tammy to Nero to the messenger. He's not scumhunting. He's casting doubt in all the right places, pushing all the easy lynches.

Oh, make that all the easy lynches except for the ones on his scumbuddies, like Kise and Aco.

[mastin2]

AP--
Yes and no. Yes, they were sheeping Thor, because Thor asked most of them to be on the wagon.
But they'd probably be there anyway even if he hadn't.

But there's more to it than that. The end of the El wagon is exactly like the end of the Tammy wagon--a deadline lynch, made because we literally had no other option and El wasn't being cooperative.
Those are circumstances which breed town players jumping on.

As for why I'm Tammy, it's 'cause in addition to being neighborized by Nero, I've also been sent a message by the messenger again. I now know who they are, and to answer that other question, because Nero is limited-shot, I'd much rather have the messenger target Aco.

Speaking of which, I want the town to swear to this statement:
If the messenger targets Aco tonight guaranteed, we put aside the messenger's alignment until tomorrow, since some of you think the messenger role comes from scum. If we can get a majority to follow this pledge, then the messenger should claim and agree to this plan. (Honestly, if they're just sending reads every night, there isn't much more they can do that they haven't already done. )

Spoiler: As for MoI...

The evidence for why a leashed SK

was

gamebreakingly powerful has been given to the point where if I stated it again, it would be repetitious. I've brought every single point forward as to why the stance about having the leashed SK was powerful--as a start, she could have (and would have, despite all arguments to the contrary; I've shown the in-thread evidence from Tammy multiple times already) tested Aco's claim, with zero risk to the town.

We've also dismantled (to the point where any further would be repetitious, as everything I've said before hasn't been, as I brought in new reason after new reason) the counter-arguments multiple times, showing why

they

were appeals to repetition and fear without logical basis.

To summarize, Tammy would have shot as directed, including shooting Aco, because she had an overall town approach to the game, had agreed to the shot for d3, knew there was a chance of survival if Aco was fakeclaiming, knew there was a potential chance for her to survive even if Aco wasn't (albeit highly doubtful), and knew that she would be lynched for shooting anyone outside of Aco, probably even if the person shot outside of Aco flipped scum, because she went against the town's will. She had been scumhunting (now verified by the neighborhood talks along with her statements after her death) and wasn't playing like scum: rather than trying to make allies (via buddying to everyone defending her, such as me), she was trying to find scum.
Saying she wouldn't goes against the in-thread evidence, saying she was a BP went against logic and setup balance (and now her flip as well), saying she was second-scumgroup went against logic and in-thread evidence (and now her flip as well), saying she wasn't going to play ball goes against logic and in-thread evidence...

Again, Tammy was, for all intensive purposes, trapped into doing something, but that something was something she (once outed) would have probably done anyway if we had let her. So she would have given that second lynch, which would have been able to get rid of Aco. And again, the double-day would be gamebreakingly powerful, because that's a second lynch. The argument against it was that "scum could influence it", but again, they can (and have!) influence lynches just as much, if not more, than the daykill.

If Tammy were a normal SK, the argument for lynching her would be a matter of MD debate. (It's well-known that I always side for letting them live, but I have no reason to doubt that MoI's stance would be on the other side--as either alignment, he has no reason to lie about a stance on a normal SK.)
But she wasn't. As was pointed out, the SK being a daykiller changed the dynamic of the debate.

And, yes, we know, some town players sided on idiocy by trying to lynch her. Benmage did (but again, Benmage wasn't playing optimally), WC did (WC's not exactly a strong player). Doesn't mean it was all-town, nor that people taking stances were doing so off of their beliefs as a person rather than a player.
I made sure to emphasize that in my article for dang-good reason. During the debate, I never once argued as a person. My belief as a person is to let them live. But I wasn't paying attention to that. I was paying attention to things as a player, where I saw Tammy as an asset, a double-killer who was acting town and had to act with the town, while potentially serving as NK-bait thanks to her obviously not being NK-immune.

This should be my holy rule #3: context is key. We weren't arguing about what, in general, should be done with serial killers. We were arguing what, in this specific game with a day-SK known who had shot scum, should be done about it.

The pro-town results of a double-day are self-evident. Two town-controlled kills rather than one.
MoI passed on that, in favor of lynching her.

Beyond that, you're also ignoring that I'm not just pushing MoI for pushing the mislynches.
I'm pushing him on the why, which I've done my best to show.

Not only that, but I've also shown a consistent pattern! He pushed Tammy, who for all intensive purposes was a mislynch. He pushed El to lynch, who we know was a mislynch. He's pushing myk for a lynch, who I know to be town. He's been pushing me as scum, and yet I am town.

Pushing one mislynch is not a scumtell.
Pushing consistent mislynches, especially from a player such as MagnaofIllusion, is.

[mastin2]

And unlike SOMEONE, I might add, I follow through on my 1v1s.

If MoI flipped town, I'd lynch myself. No questions asked. No excuses, no "welp, I'm sorry", no "MoI, you suck", no nothing.

He won't, though. As evident by his having backed out of the 1V1 for BS reasons. Had he ever gotten a mislynch on me, he would do exactly what AP thinks I would do. (AP clearly isn't familiar with how I do 1V1s. As a hint, I'm always the aggressor and initiate them, with as much confidence as I can be that I'm lynching scum.)

[mastin2]

Why not have Nero do it?

Because
-Nero is limited-shot.
-Nero's ability is more useful to the town.
-Nero recruiting Thor the same night the scum killed him--contrary to what anyone else may claim--DOES make Nero town. As scum, it wastes a shot of a limited-shot role. (Nero has no reason to lie about any aspect of his role, town or scum.) And, yes, Thor has a post in there, asking why he was neighborized, but neither I (was away over the weekened) nor Nero had the time to respond to it by the time day had started. So, he's more town than the messenger is. (Sorry, messenger, but you know it's true. )

Again, people have been supporting the plan for one of the two to target Aco. I would

strongly

encourage it be the messenger, whose role isn't that strong, rather than Nero, whose role is actually quite valuable, given that he and I can talk. (For instance, going into night, I can tell him who the messenger is, so that even if I die with the messenger unclaimed, he can still relay it to the town.)

So how does that sound?
Anything Nero would do to target Aco, the messenger targeting Aco can also do--but it has the added benefit of keeping a stronger role alive and letting a weaker less-valuable role potentially die.

[mastin2]

They requested for me not to.

But now that we know Nero's out of shots, let's go with the messenger-targets-Aco plan, shall we?
Agreed?

[mastin2]

Please note that Mastin has been challenged to provide a single link for a Town game from MoI showing that he would support leashing a Serial Killer.

Except that was never the issue. I said as much, in fact. Have said it. MoI continuing to push it is ignoring the fact that I've addressed why--
I never doubted MoI's stance on a normal SK. He has no incentive as either alignment to lie about it.

I do, and HAVE, doubted MoI's stance on an SK THIS game,

BECAUSE OF

the CIRCUMSTANCES of the SK--
It's not a normal SK, but a day-SK. More than that, it was a day-SK which the scum could LITERALLY

NOT

AFFORD TO KEEP ALIVE.

If you want insight into why Mastin is continually dodging this I think reading this should tell you the reason.

MoI's attempt at using my own threads is laughably bad, since I know them better than anyone else. He's

1:

Taking a link over a year old,

2:

From a post not even part of the guide,

3:

Which is from before the revised version,

4:

On a guide which I have consistently been rewriting, from "Thoughts While Isolated" and my recent Theory Project.


And Nero's still town. As is Jason, but not as much as Nero.

Let's review the motive for his actions:
-Neighborizing the scum NK as scum, wasting one of his very limited shots gains him...
...Potential WIFOM that scum wouldn't ever do that.

-Neighborizing Thor as town, using one of his very limited shots gains him...
The insight of a very strong town player (Thor) who thanks to suspicion on that slot is not likely to be killed, and yet is minorly suspicious, so talk in the neighbor QT could shed light on his alignment.
And if he's town, then the neighborhood would be made up of players who could coordinate with one another, bouncing ideas off of each other and getting their act together.
Plus, Thor is Thor. He's a funny guy all-around, and having him post in a QT will make your day better.

But let's go beyond his role. Let's look at his opinions, shall we? This scumhunting from Nero is in line exactly with what I see from him as town. He's been consistently on the offensive and never on the defensive (since even when he was defending himself, he was using it as an offense), pushing consistent suspects with a train of thought easy to follow. His suspects (MoI, Kise, and Cheery Dog. Oh, and if memory serves, probably AP as well.) are all pretty solidly placed; he's not waffling on them at all. But those reads aren't set in stone (confirmation bias), as they

have

changed over the course of the game, meaning he's willing to adapt his reads for new evidence, rather than morphing evidence to fit his reads. If that wasn't enough, he brings new insight almost every single time he posts, bringing new thoughts to the table each time, rather than repeating the same old stuff over and over again. *coughcoughmoicoughcough* Add in his stubbornness, and the guy can't get much stronger town on his play.

Nero is pretty much one of the worst possible mislynches in the history of mislynches.

[mastin2]

And again, this pattern shows why MoI is scum. He's pushing for the idea of:
-If one of the messenger and neighborizer flips town, the other is scum.
Meaning that he's got two mislynches lined up there.
-Pushing Zab as scum.
-Pushing me as scum.
-Pushing jason as scum.
-Pushing myk as scum.
-Pushed El as scum.

Just as El did, I can guarantee everyone up there will flip town. (Why? Because I'm a Scumhunting God, of course. )

More than that, he's consistently been defending and buddying Kise, Aco, the birds, while also pretty much ignoring Cheery Dog.
He's never really stated his opinion on most of the playerlist, in fact.

Only on the above.
-Plus, Thor had quite a strong push against MoI. And take Occam's Razor for setup design, advice from my Theory Project:
If speculation of scum actions requires the existence of an unproven scum role (in this case, that Thor was rolecopped), chances are quite high you've gone wrong.

Though it's

possible

the scum have both a roleblocker and a rolecop, it's not

probable

, meaning Thor was a good 85% likely not to have been killed for his role, but for something else. What else would it be? It'd have to be his reads.

[mastin2]

So I was thinking last night, about this game.
And just before I went to bed, I had a thought. The thought of,

"Hey! I'm obvtown. I can take control of this town!"

So I think it's about time I did.

After all, catching scum's worthless if you can't lynch scum. And I've been biding time this game, been essentially lurking, posting each day but not living up to activity standards because I lacked the motive.

Well, I just realized me lacking the motive is entirely my fault, and that I don't need to wait for another mislynch for me to do this. In fact, this might be my only chance. So let's get this show on the road, shall we? I can put off reading the new stuff for a while (rest of 123 and whatever's on 124), and for the moment, I'm going to be focusing on each player alive. Time to coordinate this uncoordinated town. Starting off of Aco. Each player'll have their own post.

[mastin2]

Acosmist:

Look, I think you're scum, and have been pushing you as scum, but because I'm town, and a plan is underway to test your powers, I

do

have to give you

some

benefit of the doubt, and be willing to see you as town.

As such, if you're town, I'd like to make this as explicit as possible: you're doing it wrong.

You've faded into the background for the most part. As a PGO who the scum can't kill, your job should be to be a strong town player, to have an extremely strong town voice present in the game, to be obvtown and to have your presence make the scum wish they could kill you. You...haven't.

Your suspects have been jokes, and your townreads not much better.

I want from you, an entire list of the town players--who you find scummy and a paragraph or so on why (and, no, you can't use "they attacked me" or any variant thereof as a reason), along with who you think is town and why (and, no, "they defended me" and variants thereof is not a valid reason).

Please increase your presence in the game. And if you're town, take action. Scum play by reactions, exactly like you have been. Town players play by taking initiative, and creating action--I don't want you to just give suspects and vote 'em, I want you to actively be trying to convince others on why your suspects are scum and why you're right and they're not. And I want you posting more often, since if you're town, lurking does not suit your goal.

As you are, if you're town, the scum couldn't care less that you're a PGO. Make them care. Make them want you dead.

[mastin2]

AngryPidgeon:

Look, I get it, you think I'm scum. Up 'til now, I haven't really given a damn that you think that, since (1) I'm town, and (2) I have some serious suspicion on you.

But if for no other reason than that you're currently still on the town side of null (albeit only just, and partially 'cause I've got a full scumteam already ), I've decided that, well, it is a problem, to be addressed now.

So bluntly, if you're town, you're being stupid again.
I am town. Unlike usually, I can't prove it with my role, but as always, the proof there is in my actions.

So as I'm town, please listen to me.

First off, some questions.
1: Why do you seem to only be focusing on certain players? The town-AP I know is scatterbrained, all over the place. That's not to say town-AP doesn't have conviction; I've seen it from you before. But the town-AP I know constantly re-evaluates things and can flip a switch on a read mid-day, kinda like me.
You haven't been doing that this game. You've been showing an unusual level of, well, focus on your reads, and quite frankly, that's one of the main reasons that you've gone back into my radar--because it freaks me out. Not because you have me as scum (been there, done that, don't care), but because you're not changing your reads, and you're focusing on specific players.

2: Why is MoI so town to you? And don't answer "because you're pushing him as scum" or "because he's pushing you as scum" or "because he's pushing *playername* as scum". I want reasons on why you think MoI's play has been town.

3: But why stop at just MoI? I also want a full-blown list of reads from you. I know you can do it. Reads on every single player in the game, along with a description as to why you've read them like that. (Though please do give more detail on MoI.)

(Bah. I thought I'd have more to say, but...well, I don't. I'll come back to ya if I think of more.)

[mastin2]

Cheery Dog:

The reason AP's on the townside of null is because you're on the scumside of it.

You're not being very active here, and I KNOW for a FACT that you can (and have) been active in the past. Why are you not paying much attention to this game?

Furthermore, you've replaced into a bit of a hot seat. Though it hasn't been pushed very hard, many key players have had you on their suspect lists--what do you have to say about that?

More than that, how much of the game have you read? I realize that it's a long game, but you've had, what, almost a month to read it? There's no excuse for not having done so. (Just checked--two weeks, actually.)
Even reading less than ten pages a day, you could have (and should have) finished reading it, yet I don't seem to recall you giving an update on that. Have you read it all, and if not, why?

Why aren't you voting anyone, either?

And who, exactly, do you suspect? Like with the others, I want the why as well.

Don't think you can get away from this game by lurking, because I'm not letting you go any time soon. I want answers from you, and if you don't step up your game, then you're a great candidate for lynching.

[mastin2]

Jason:

Look, I realize that you're town. It's painfully obvious, and everything I see only makes the picture stronger.

But strong as my voice in the game is, I'm still only one player. And while you've convinced me (which helps convince others, as I help influence them), you haven't convinced a lot of people. I want you to do so.

Show them why you're town.

More than that, I realize that you're not that strong of a player, but you kinda have to be right now. In this game, we need as many as we can get. So you need to kinda stop derping, no matter how much of a towntell it may be. You can start by giving me a full suspect list. Heck, make it a full read list and give the town as well, along with your reasons for why. I realize you probably haven't thought about a lot of the players in the game, but I would strongly urge you to do so. We need every town voice in here to coordinate their reads as efficiently as possible, so we can lock in on common suspects--and do so now, rather than when deadline draws near, so that we can get them lynched, rather than having three or four counterwagons to the mislynch.

[mastin2]

Kise:

You're another player who I think is scum, but you haven't antagonized me, and I owe you that same courtesy. So have a few questions.

1: What happened to your read on Khan? A while back, you offered to 1V1 him, yet now, you've pretty much completely dropped that, in favor of...
2: Nero. You've been doubting his role, but you have my word that it works exactly the way he says it does. So do you still think he's scum because of his role, or is it because of more than that? Do you have more reasons to think he's scum than what he's said?

3: For that matter, I've seen you focusing your reads on specific players. (Mainly suspects, not so much town.) Why are you focusing only on specific people, rather than on people as a whole?

4: So basically, (this is getting a little repetitive ) I want you to give me your rundown, on all your suspects and all your townreads, along with the reasons why. I need to see your stances crystal clearly for there to be any chance of you moving outside of my suspect list, 'cause you're currently second-strongest under MoI.

5: Also, why is your activity as low as it is?
The town-Kise I knew years ago was one of the most frequent posters in the game, posting almost every day with thought after thought after thought.
Yes, it's an out-of-date meta, but I still want to know what changed to make your posting be sporadic and infrequent; I can tell you right here and now it was not a change for the better.

[mastin2]

Kublai Khan:

Why has your activity level dropped off so much?

You were EXTREMELY active on day two, but somewhat less active on day three--yet still a strong presence there.

Today, not so much. You've kinda disappeared, so I'd like an explanation as to why.

Also, could you remind me of who your suspects are and why? I'm looking for not just two or three names, but more like your top five or six. (That's more scum than I think there are, but I don't want just who you think is scum, I also want who you think could be scum, and basically, who you're willing to lynch and why.)

[mastin2]

MagnaofIllusion:

Thought I'd exclude you, did ya?
Quite the opposite, I have a lot to say to you.

First off, let me say--you don't want to underestimate me. You've been laughing me off, but you're ignoring the critical factor of time. You've already made plenty of enemies for the Tammy lynch and for the El lynch. You'll make more and more with each mislynch you push through. I've made some enemies, sure, but I've made a HECK of a lot more allies. And I'll continue to make more allies, with every mislynch I defend against. From Tammy to El, whenever you win, you lose support. You're in a position where plenty of people have you as a suspect. Even if you're only the primary suspect of a few people, you're a secondary and tertiary suspect for many more, and lots of people lean null on you.

It's really a minority of the town which actually thinks you're town, and as the evidence mounts against you, as they see you be wrong time after time, and me be right, time after time, they'll stop supporting you.

More than that, I'm charismatic when I choose to be. I know how the system works. I know how to pull the strings, to strike the bargains necessary to push a lynch through. So far, my efforts have been too little, too late, but I'm starting early this time. And that means I can direct people, I can get them to go my way and follow me, and honestly, I think I can do that better than you can, especially given that you keep on being wrong and I keep on being right.


So again, don't underestimate me. More than that, don't antagonize me. Right now, for this post, I'm entertaining the idea that you're town. And I'm telling you that regardless of your alignment, having me as an enemy will not end well for you. So play with me for a while. I want you to tell me not just your suspects and not just your setup spec and not just who you're defending. I want from you, a full list of reads, on the entire playerlist. For instance, you've consistently dodged giving a reading on Kise.

Also, I want to know--have you read the entire game? You replaced in, you've done isos, you've been playing since ~5 pages before replacing in and maybe even some of the first pages, but I want to know if you've actually read the game in context entirely.


Arg, thought I'd have more to say. But eh, if there's more, I'll just ask, since for the moment, I'm going about things in a more civilized manner.

[mastin2]

Mykonian:

You're town, so I need your help now. Please don't go for pidgey. I know it's tempting (there's good reason to have pidgey be there, even though to me he isn't), but we need to focus. We're not getting a pidgey lynch any time soon, for the simple reason that pidgey is likely a mislynch, sad as that may be. And I'd rather not have a mislynch at all, so please focus on actual scum players.

For a start, I'd like you to give me all your suspects, along with a paragraph on why they're scum.

We can get a lynch on scum today, but we need to work together, and do so now rather than later when it's too late.

[mastin2]

Nero Cain:

You're awesome, and your reads are awesome. I think you're on the right track, so you don't have to convince me, but you will have to convince others.

So my request to you is quite simple: from you, I want you to give a paragraph or two on each of your suspects, explaining why they are scum.

I know, you have been doing so a lot recently, but I want it all in one place, all in one post. Preferably minimizing the amount of references to them attacking you for your claim. *I* know that it's suspicious for them to have done so, but most people don't, and will not take your case as seriously if you do.

Also, make sure to rank it from person you'd most want to lynch to person you'd least like to lynch.

More than any other player, your feedback is what I need right now, given as how we're effectively masons right now.

[mastin2]

PeregrineV:

Put simply, I need to know exactly where you stand.

You seem to be agreeing with all the right players, agreeing a lot with me, agreeing a lot with Nero, agreeing with Khan and all that, but...

Where, exactly, do you, yourself, stand on all players?

So yeah, from you I want a list of scumreads. Like with Nero, ordered strongest to weakest, along with reasons why they're scumreads. It can be anything from a sentence to a long paragraph long, but I need it from you, since you're one of the few voices of strong reason in the town right now.

[mastin2]

Pidgey:

Where are ya, man? You're normally so dang active to the point of being extremely annoying.

Right now, you've virtually disappeared. Contrary to what you might think, I actually

do

like having you posting often, derp as I think your opinion may be.

Speaking of which, could you give your opinions on every player? Again, I realize you've slacked off, but I can't seem to recall you once having gotten a read on all the playerlist. Your reads--similar to AP--seem rather focused, on specific players. Why is that?

And could you broaden your focus and give reads on everyone? Right now, I think you're town, but you need to step up your game, because plenty of people here don't agree, and you could be a mislynch down the line if you don't get in here.

[mastin2]

Yates:

Why, exactly, is MoI town to you? I want more than just a short description here. I want at least two or three paragraphs, since with how strongly you're advocating it, I expect there to be a reason for that level of conviction.

More than that, I also need a lay of the land from you--a roadmap to who you DO suspect. Most to least, along with a description as to why.

Also, if you have a townread on anyone else in my suspect pool (MoI/Aco/Kise/Cheery Dog), you're going to have to explain that as well.

Also also, why have you been so quiet as of late? You were one of the most verbose players on day two, but like Khan (only moreso), your activity has been dropping with each day. Please remedy that; we need a strong voice like yours in here if we're going to get a scum lynch.

[mastin2]

And last but certainly not least--

Zabriel:

Out of all the mislynches we could have today, yours would be the one I would resist the least. Why do you think that is?

And I know you can be more active than you have been in this game--why aren't you posting that often?

Also, why are you voting MoI? I want more than "because you've been defending me and attacking him" and more than "because he's been attacking me". I want more from you than that.
And if none exists, then I want you to make more. If the above was really your only reason for voting him, I want you to do the research on MoI and to tell me in your own words why you think he's scum.

Furthermore, I want you to give me your best reads on the entire playerlist. You might not have that many opinions, but you have to have more than two or three, and even on those you don't, you can at least try.

Here it is, for reference:
3. zabriel
4. Shahrizai mykonian
5. Kise
6. Cybertronix mastin2
8. PeregrineV
9. Amrun pidgey
10. Acosmist
11. Zoroaster MagnaofIllusion
12. Yates
14. I Am Innocent AngryPidgeon
16. jasonT1981
17. snifit Cheery Dog
19. Kublai Khan
21. Nero Cain

[mastin2]

Everyone:

Know this, that if you ignore any part of my post directed towards you, I'll start pushing for your lynch until you've answered.
I don't care if you've been my biggest townread; my questions are not unreasonable, my requests are good, and if you think I'm town, you'd be best not to tick me off.

Also, please read the parts directed towards other players. I don't care if you normally ignore my posts, and I don't care if what I wrote was directed to someone else. There's still stuff in each post that you can use, as each post is meant to give you ideas. For easy reference:
Intro,
Acosmist, AngryPidgeon, Cheery Dog,
Jason,
Kise,
Kublai Khan,
MoI,
Mykonian, Nero, PV,
Pidgey,
Yates, and
Zabriel.

Now I'm going to read.

[mastin2]

I notice you are talking out of both sides of your mouth in recent posts – I’m your top suspect and you are appealing to everyone to explain their Town read on me but you specifically say you are willing to entertain the concept of me being Town.

Yes, MoI, I'm willing to entertain the possibility of you being town, because I'm not tunnelvisioning and not a moron.

You're still scum, and this post pretty much just reaffirms it, from you twisting my words.
It's possible you're town, yes, but not probable. My request was not unreasonable, for you to do your best to convince me it's the other way around, for you to be probable town and only possible town. Instead, you do this, and try to say that I'm wiggling out of my read on you. Entertain the possibility is exactly that--willing to hear it. Nothing more. Saying otherwise directly contradicts pretty much everything, especially given that when responding, you saw how I treated Aco, AP, Cheery Dog, and Kise, all who I suspect, but all who I was addressing, for the sake of entertaining the possibility of them being town, as if they were.

I don't do this often. I don't treat my suspects this way most of the time. So don't waste it. I'm a nice guy, though, so let's give you a second shot.

I’ll tell you who my suspects are and why

And not more than that? I have no memory of comments from you on Cheery Dog. At all.
I have no memory of comments on Kise. At all.
For that matter, I don't really remember you having anything on PV or Yates, either.

I mean, I know who you're pushing as scum. I know you've defended Aco and the birds. I know you've interacted with Khan and can guess the read there.

Show me them. Show me Kise, Cheery Dog, PV, and Yates interactions.

[mastin2]

Hey Acosmist - I've had a Town read on you for your PGO claim and early ISO posting. Frankly though your posting in the last two days leaves a lot to be desired. Please do a better job of being useful. Lately you are hovering at a PMyst / T-Bone level of posting. That's not a good thing if you are Town.

Oh,

fuck me.

God

damn

you, MoI.

Anything.

Literally anything else.

You could say would probably not make me doubt my reads. That you and Aco are both scum.

GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.

VOTE: Kise.
While I go sort this out in my mind for a while. If MoI's scum and Aco town, if Aco's scum and MoI's scum, if both are scum and MoI a genius, or neither scum and me in need of rope.

[mastin2]

Mod:

As a note, I'll be V/LA over the weekend as normal. (Yes, I realize the parallels between MoI's activity and mine are uncanny. )

...Actually, let's extend that a bit further.

Mod:

Note that the holidays are coming up, and I often go LA two weeks before Christmas preparing for the V.
AKA, next week.

So, uh, let's just say,

V/LA (major, but short term) over weekend.
V/LA (minor, but long term) until 2013.

I shouldn't have to replace out, since I can probably maintain a decent level of access before and after vacation, and I know that when ON vacation, I can. (Albeit only during a certain window of the day and at dial-up speeds which are ungodly slow, so being ninja'd will be an issue. ) But it's not going to be even close to every day.

Anyway, reading 125-127.

[mastin2]

Why do you think Zabriel is Town Mastin (other than "Lulz you think he is scum")? I'd really like to see your support for the stance.

Honestly, I don't really remember. If I'd have to guess, it'd be something to do with his play reminding me of town games I've seen, and/or something about his iso looking genuine and his stances good, but I'd have to get back to you on that.

Do note, though, that of all the players we could mislynch today, Zab's the one I'd least resist. I have no intention to join that wagon, but I'm not exactly going to try and stop it, either.

Why is pidgey a townread?

Putting this here because it's identical to zab. Any answer right now would be me BS'ing my best guess, since I really don't remember why he's a townread; he just is.
I think it had to do with how his posting--though seeming derp--had an air of being legitimate, making me think derp-town.

You've been advocating him as town as well, so why do you have an issue with me having a townread on him?

Calling PV a strong voice?

Quality, not quantity. His posting's sporadic, but he brings up excellent points in most of what he's posting, even if his consistently-behind-the-game is incredibly annoying.

(Also, dodging. I'm treating Nero like a mason-buddy. I'm synchronizing with his thoughts for the most part, and I can't see him as anything other than town.)

Skimmin' the walls and might see if there's more content in there worth responding to, but for now...

Playerlist is divided good enough to make a sequel to West Side Story. Certain people don't want to lynch so-and-so because so-and-so won't lynch them, but will lynch similar 'suspects'. Do we have any odd men out that 8 of us can agree to lynch, or are we doomed to these cliques?

Funny, I seem to recall me suggesting something like this a couple pages back...ohright, 'cause that's what the whole point of my spamposting was, to coordinate our reads.

Moi, Mastin, I'm on my death bed. I call make a wish and tell them I want you two to find a common enemy and not let scum tip toe around your battle. What do you do?

I get him to stop focusing on myk and Nero (who are both town) and probably also on jason (who is still town). In exchange, I stop focusing on him and you (as you'd both be town here), and take that into consideration. We coordinate from there. It wouldn't be much of a base, but it would be one.
Also, we plan for me to end up dead before lylo, because I'd have backed out of my 1V1 despite having said multiple times that I'd never do that.

Also,

Vote: AngryPidgeon.

Note the lack of vote tags, since I'm not at all putting much stock into that read, but it's currently a better place than Kise is.

I can't believe I'm saying it (see also--I need to be dead before lylo for this ), but there's a very real chance of quite a deal of my reads reversing. Kise's answers on a glance look good, and MoI's posts aren't screaming scum at me anymore.
I still think one of AP/Cheery Dog is scum, but I'm not sure if both are, but I don't think neither is. It's not much (I've got a looooooot of rereading to do), but it's all I've got right now.

[mastin2]

Also, his stance on PV looks bad.
(*insert "FUCKYOUMASTIN RageHawk", the evolution of an "Angry Pidgeon" here* )

[mastin2]

Zabriel just dropped a huge town tell. Abort the wagon. Abort the plan. Everyone get on PV.

I see it. I agree with it, Zab's town from it.

Not sold on PV, though.

[mastin2]

PeregrineV - 4 (Cheery Dog, AngryPidgeon, zabriel, Kise)

HOLY CRAP!!!!

That PV wagon is so horribly scummy.

Also this.

I see the Zab towntell, so he's town.
I'm re-evaluating Kise, but he's been scum.
I want AP to be town, but I'm not sold.
And then there's Cheery Dog, who's also scummy-as-hell.

[mastin2]

@mastin2 - Did Tammy know that Nero Cain had a limited number of neighborizing shots (per discussion in QT)? Also, I want a good reason why the messenger's name should stay secret.

As far as I can tell, shots weren't discussed. It was exactly as Tammy and Nero said; they bounced reads off of each other.

And the reason why the messenger should stay secret is that they're town, I trust them, they asked me not to and I respect their opinion. Plus, it allows for less scum interference and keeps the scum guessing.



Side-note, the post shortly before this which quoted AP saying PV/myk as the messenger and PV/myk as scumreads makes me strongerly lean scum on him.

[mastin2]

Also, off of 128, I'd be a whole HECK of a lot more comfortable with an AP lynch than a Cheery Dog lynch.
Kinda sorta getting the vibe that he's town now. Have no clue why; call it gut.

[mastin2]

Also, though I think pidgey is town, if he's going to go all derp and try a 1V1 with myk, there's no question at all; I'm siding with myk.
That said, pidgey's still town. Idiotic derp-town, but town all the same.

[mastin2]

PeregrineV - 4 (Cheery Dog, AngryPidgeon, zabriel, Kise)
zabriel - 3 (Acosmist, MagnaofIllusion, jasonT1981)
AngryPidgeon - 2 (Kublai Khan, mastin2)
Cheery Dog - 1 (Nero Cain)
jasonT1981 - 1 (Yates)
pidgey - 1 (mykonian)
mykonian - 1 (pidgey)
Not voting - PeregrineV

Myk, pidgey, look here.
Your crossvoting is a waste. You're not getting support, and it's counterproductive to even try. Nobody's interested.
Yates, a jason lynch isn't happening now. If I had my way, it'd be never. But it's certainly not now. You're never getting enough support there in what time we have left for today, especially not when faced with such strong opposition.
Realistically, the only people in today's lynch pool are {PV, Zab, AP, Cheery Dog}. (Yes, I know, Cheery Dog only has one vote, but unlike jason, there actually COULD be enough support.)

Now, zab's towntold pretty hard. That wagon should disintegrate.
PV's not a wagon I'd support.

So really, for me, the choice today is between AP and Cheery Dog.
And I'd much prefer AP at the moment.

[mastin2]

Im not even going to answer you Myk. I already explained heavily why ou re scum and why your most current stance if a piece of scum crap. "You are voting for me? oh scum. You arent?!? SCUM!"

Vote me or myk people.

Its really damn simple.

to qoute Chris Jericho.

Would you please SHUT THE HELL UP!

We are not doing your stupid 1vs1. We are not going to vote either you or him.

We will vote who we think is scum, not who you bitch, whine and cry about.

Shut the fuck up about it.

Anyone who thinks jason is scum when he posts something like this is either an idiot or scum.
You can't get a much better way of saying it than this.

[mastin2]

And mastin agreed with my reasoning so I guess he kind of did too.

Indeed.

Zab lynch isn't happening.

We've got three options:

AP, Cheery Dog, and PV.

I'm reconsidering my PV read, since I got a gut feelin' all of a sudden last night that AP was town, but I need to think it through.

[mastin2]

Jumping ship.

Vote: PeregrineV.

[mastin2]

MoI, Nero's town. Period. Stop pursuing him. On the surface, his wording seems to contradict itself. I'll give you that much about him. But if you get into the mindset, you can tell that Nero (legitimately) believes everything he's saying. Between not remembering things perfectly and things which were implied without being outright stated, he's legitimately frustrated and confused as to why, exactly, people are pushing suspicion onto him when he knows he's telling the truth.

Jason's also about as town as he can be.

And myk's not getting lynched, like, ever.


If you want a lynch on zab, do better at convincing me. Focus on him. Show me more. I'll listen. But right now, your points against zab are footnotes compared to your points against the players who I'm not going to ever support a lynch of. You have me as town (albeit weak-town), so if you want me on your side, you're going to have to persuade me.
And right now, I'm not.

[mastin2]

Jason isn't Town via play. This is his scum meta to a tee. I should know we discussed it in QT both times were were partners in the past (Newbie game and Zach's Large Normal).

Show me in more detail. I'll listen, but I don't see him as scum. Yes, you're V/LA right now (I saw the tag); I realize you'll be limited for a while. But when you can, I want more--not links to other games (quite frankly, I don't open any links in cases), but quotes. Not just quotes from the thread, but also the QTs where jason was scum.

And I want you to show me a contrast between that and his townplay. With quotes from this game highlighting and clearly illustrating why his posts mirror his scumplay and NOT his townplay. That's what I need.

Quite frankly, I don't really have suspects at the moment. (Note the bold in my wagon hop rather than the vote tag.) I DO, however, have townreads. Jason's one of them. And no matter how little credibility you give me, if you think I'm town and you want me to follow you, you still need to convince me my townread is wrong. So show me why it is.

[mastin2]

Basically, I know you can't right now, but when you can, I want a jason case (preferably with the above format) and a zab case from ya.
I'll listen. More so now than at any other point in the game, given that I lack direction towards suspects.

But I'm not going to ever support a Nero lynch or a myk lynch.

If you want common ground, focus on jason and zab. I'm not so stubborn that I'll refuse.

[mastin2]

Also, hai, PV. You're the main wagon right now.

What say you to that?

[mastin2]

P-edit: you don't think Acosmist/Kise/MoI are scum any more?

Not particularly, no.

I mean, I'm not going to hold my hands out to them and frolic in flowers, skipping along in an unbreakable friendship...

...But I've lost my scumread on all of 'em.

Yes, I know, I have to die before lylo thanks to backing out of the 1V1 like this, but pending further rereads, I just don't have the conviction in my reads on 'em I had before.

When I do a full reread, sure, maybe I'll still conclude one/two/three of them are still scum, but at the moment, I have zero confidence that any of 'em are.