Street Racers: New York (Game over!)

[nhammen]

Very busy grading. Grades due tomorrow. Will have questions after this time. On the subject of No lynch, read the wiki:
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=No_lynch

It is a bad idea, unless you have reason to believe the game is power heavy. And the meta on this site is to be power light, so no lynch is a very very bad idea. Only newbs advocate it. Roger, in light of the above, will your behavior change?

[nhammen]

Questions I would have asked on page 1, if I had the time:

Aj The Epic post 19: Why did you decide to join the Dumbledore bandwagon?
theomoaner post 22: Why did you decide not to join the Dumbledore wagon?
njoseph post 23: Why did you decide not to join the Dumbledore wagon?
[/page1 questions]

By the way, Roger's totally scum.
TML's scum with him. Discuss.

Roger seems like a nulltell so far. We shall see. Although TML's post restriction assumption was odd, I do not see him as scum from any of his posts up to this one. But then again, I'm not the RVS analyzer you are.

Pursuant to the Monty Hall problem's take-away concerning probability, I will switch from my choice that has some/25 chance of being scum. Vote will be on someone.

UNVOTE

Monty Hall only has any effect if information has been revealed about the other doors/players. Other than the vote that occurs in your next post, did you see any information revealed that you want to share? If you did not, then why bring up Monty Hall rather than just vote for someone who did something with a potential scum motivation?

Also, I like your vote, for the time being:
VOTE: Bride of Sadistyx for placing a vote on Roger for a behavior that is suboptimal rather than scummy.

Also, Sixx is scum.

Okay, why?

Vote: Aj the Epic

He is obviously scum.

Do tell.

I want to bring a second emphasis to this.

And you're choosing not to vote...
...Why?

Is that an issue?

There is a link in my sig about RVS. I thought you had already read it.

FOS: Jacob

[nhammen]

Post 23 is your RVS vote. The question was why was your RVS vote on a player with no votes rather than a player with some votes.

[nhammen]

Its not the playstyle I choose, but OK. I would like to mention that it uses your vote in a way that does not apply pressure and produces no accountability on your part, and thus no ability to gain a read from this. In other words, I find this to be suboptimal play. But it seems to be a strategy many players apply.

[nhammen]

Cool. I'm an RVSwagoner myself. These page 1 questions usually don't amount to much, but they can sometimes show a contradiction in a player's playstyle.

[nhammen]

Indeed I had read it but by the time I arrived, it seemed RVS was over so voting without a reason would be silly in my opinion.

Ugh. RVS is over when you have found a scumread that is strong enough to have a nonrandom vote, and not a moment earlier.

[nhammen]

VOTE: Heather for not being here yet.

This appears to be an RVS vote, or nearly so. Do you have anything to say about the game so far?

So let me get this straight... Because I don't so readily give up all of my reads to you, I'm obvscum? I have formulated my opinions, I just don't readily share them with people because I'm not a book that you just read. I like to keep some things to myself.

Irregardless, if you must know, I voted Dumbledore to put pressure on. Admittedly, I went through the posts semi-quickly, but that doesn't mean I didn't read. I didn't entirely notice that he hadn't voted, but if you are so anal about it, I can go ahead and vote for the noob. He would be the second lynch for me, as is obvious for most, if not all, people.

Since Dumbledore hasn't even posted yet, I might as well switch now than later.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Rodger

Ummm... wow. This reaction is bad. Reads are the only weapon most townies have. They should be shared. Also, you had reads, but instead of voting your reads, you decided to RVSwagon.
VOTE: thezmon221
Before this post, I did not find you to be scum. Heck, I could easily imagine myself playing in a similar manner to the way you played. If I had no reads yet, I would have either joined the Dumbledore wagon, or created a second wagon to see where people went. To be honest, at the time of your vote, I only had one or two reads, so it is easily understandable. But if you had reads and still chose to RVSwagon, that is a different story.

Why thezmon is scum

59: Ignores essentially the entire thread to post a rv. Shows that he is actually reading the thread (responds to bird and beast's question about experience) but doesn't do anything productive at all with the gamestate.

67: suggests that it's good play to vote for who you think is scummiest at this stage of the game, still has a vote on someone who hasn't posted.

Mini already trying to look like he/she is scum hunting. hmmm.. Fishy!!!

I'm not seeing anything faked or "trying" here. I mean, it is an "RVS is over" case, which I don't really like, but it doesn't appear to be fake.

Honestly thez I don't need anybody to ask why I have votes on me, it is what it is and thats my basic reaction to any D1 situation. What bugs me right now is that you are curious to his reasons to me. Don't latch onto me, we might play together somewhere else but I'll still lynch you well before you get the chance to buddy-buddy and kill me. Same goes for how B&B is latching onto Mastin with the obvtown. Am I going to make a deal about it at all? no. Why? because its D1 and I'm considered new to them so c'est la vie.

Ya, Sixx is scum. Vote it up. Look at all of that waffling and 'woe is me' crap in RVS.

Agreed. That looks really bad.

[nhammen]

nhammen I'm policying Roger without a solid scumread. Why Bride over me?
And if it's still RVS why does thta matter anyways... whatever

Because I was still in the middle of my reread, and at the point I was in my read, he had a vote on him. Also, its not still RVS for everyone. Only for some people.

[nhammen]

Whoops. Bride is a she. SHould be obvious from the name. But i accidentally used he. Consider this an EBWOP.

[nhammen]

"unvote RVS is over" is a terrible strategy

[nhammen]

Also, Parama, on thinking on it further, part of it is also that you are stating right out that it is policy. Bride is not, so there is more possibility that it has scum motivations.

[nhammen]

No joke: it'd be easier to quote the parts of ArcAngel's posts which DON'T make me think town.

I don't see it. Arc is null for me. Maybe a hair South of null for #94, but it's not much. She could be removed from the game, and I would see no difference.

[nhammen]

Thez, mastin does this. Par for the course. Attacking someone for playing to his meta is bad, cuz he will do it as either alignment. Now, I have personal experience from a game in which mastin was dangerously wrong with one of his reads (I was scum so I was happy about him being wrong). This means, that although he appears town here, I'm not willing to entirely trust his reads.

[nhammen]

unseen, do you have anything to say other than unvote?

[nhammen]

Roger is a new player and new players usually be townie's.

New players are just as likely to be scum as experienced players. Roles are assigned randomly. But I get what you are saying: newb townies get placed under suspicion more often than experienced townies, so given that a player has come under suspicion, if that player is new, they are more likely to be town than if they are experienced. I think that's what you were trying to say?

I'm aware of that. It was mostly a reaction test, but I haven't really gotten one from him.

And what reaction did you hope to get?

Apple iss so hilariously scum
One at a time Parama one at a time

I can get behind this. I'm very seriously thinking it would be better than thez.

(Oh, and by the way--AJ's been kicked off the town list.)

Hasn't been kicked off my list.

[nhammen]

Because your response to Librarian's statement that you should be voting a scumread was that you didn't have any scumreads, so placed a wagonvote. I'm cool with this, and that's my MO when I have no reads. But then you said that you did have reads that you weren't sharing. In that case, why didn't you vote one of those secret reads.?

[nhammen]

Ummm... PM, weren't we in a game in which the Godfather was powerwagoned Day 1?

[nhammen]

Hey thez, you asked me about my reason for voting you, and I've explained it for a second time now, but you haven't responded. You keep attacking everyone else's cases though. I'm feeling a bit left out here. Why are you attempting to refute everyone's case but mine?

[nhammen]

Thez does not realize that you can scumhunt in short posts too.
Neat.

Question: Do you think this effects his alignment?

Instead of howling about short days / quick lynches, lets discuss something relevant then?

It IS relevant in some way, if we DO quick-lynch, it might lead to a catastrophe. We need a combination of Day and Night in order to win. Well, Town that is. Mafia really only need luck that they don't get caught and the Night to kill us Townies. In other words, the longer the Day goes, the more likely the Mafia will get caught.

When he says relevant he means something about the alignment of players rather than theory discussions over what type of lynch is optimal. Theory talk is a good way for scum to hide. What reads do you have?

I find it interesting that your reads do not match the reads of anyone in this game. Unseen as town really surprises me. You have a recent join date. Are you new, an alt, or a player from another site?

Go a head quote whatever posts you would like but i am not the scum
What do you mean Null? Define it.
And how dare you make statements like that i could be removed? What are you trying to achieve here? you don't even know a thing about me.

Null means that I have no read either way on you yet. Can be removed means that you have had no real presence in the game. Your comments have mostly been pointless. Of course there are some players who have only made pointless posts, so there are people who are worse.

I have to agree with Heather on this one. I find it difficult to look for scum when a single opinion is being shoved down my throat.

(A)

Thez will probably flip town and I will probably be labeled as scum for this post alone. But I suppose it's only D1 so there isn't really much basis for any vote.

(B)

B&B, if Thez ends up being mafia then I will give you credit where it is due, but if not then you are probably wrong about all of the others that you have labeled scum since your reasoning was simply because they defended Thezmon or opposed you.

Also, ArcAngel you clearly misinterpreted that last quote of yours. Thezmon put together a list of scummy people that were voting for him. He didn't say that everyone who votes for him is scum. This looks like an obvious attempt to twist his words, which is very scummy to me.

VOTE: ArcAngel

A) Why do you believe that this post will result in you being called scum? Why submit the post if you have this feeling? Isn't saying that sort of a self-fulfilling prophesy (woe is me etc...)?
B) I do not believe that was the source of his reads, and I do not believe that being wrong about one read generalizes to being wrong on all reads.
C) I asked you a question, and no answer is contained in this post.
VOTE: KillerApple

I'm aware of that. It was mostly a reaction test, but I haven't really gotten one from him.

And what reaction did you hope to get?

For reference

[nhammen]

@nhammen- I don't really understand what you are asking in that question. It wouldn't really make sense to

hope

for a certain reaction. If it were a town reaction, so be it. If it were a mafia reaction, so be it. But I didn't receive a reaction at all, so I let it go. It was a random and early vote. I posted the prediction of being called out as scum for my post to see who would fall for it, and you fell for it very easily. But I'm glad that you voted me instead of continuing the wagon on Thezmon. Now I can be sure that you are scumhunting and you are probably town.

I asked that question because I do not like your use of the "lol reaction test" defense. Which I notice you used again in this post... Now, I know that some people do use reaction tests, but this defense is a good way for scum to avoid accountability.

Nhammen, why does it matter that I have different reads from you? Why does it matter if I am a newbie or played on another site?

It is more that your reads are different from most other players that have stated reads. And there is a connection to where you have played before. Do you read threads in the Mafia Discussion forum?

it seems that you saw a bunch of people from another site and decided we must all be scum.

Pretty blatantly false as well. IDGAF where someone's from. I care about their alignment in this game. There are plenty of people in this game who are from elsewhere that we've read town (or null-town) and there are people in this game who aren't from elsewhere that we read as null or null-scum. As evident in our list of reads.

HeatherA, Sixx, Bride, Thez, Rob, and myself are all from the same site. I think the only ones who haven't played here before from us is Sixx and Bride, both of whom have played mafia for longer than me.

Ummm, you may not care where people are from, but that is de-facto where your reads are. Maybe you are seeing this other site's meta as scummy, or maybe it is something else, but you have a scumlist that just so happens to include everyone from this other site. That would be quite the coincidence, don't you think?

@Thez told you it was very weak. This is also an example why quiclynching is a bad move. Thez is becoming more and more town like.
His reaction under pressure to me stinks of being town orientated.

In other news ArcAngles last post is terrible. I know of no role that upon the flip of one player it causes another player to be confirmed innocent. To be it seams far too much like Scum trying to distance their buddy through the medium of WIFOM.

Thus;
VOTE: ArcAngel9

P.s. Merry Christmas to you all

Agree on thez, although I'm uncertain on how much i agree. I'm not sure what you are saying about Arc and flips.

[nhammen]

Eh, thez could be town. On the supporting side, multiple players vouching for thez equals either an entire scumteam trying desperately to keep a scum player alive, or as them actually being right.

Or town being on his wagon initially, but second guessing into the wrong decision. Not that I think that's what is going on (or I would have my vote back on him), but it is another possibility.

I received a test vote.
Figure me out, bros.

Took me a moment to realize what you were talking about here. This seems kinda scummy, but I think I'm reading more into it than I should. It seems like you are challenging AJ, saying he wont be able to get a read.

With such a big game, can I take it easy Day One? Is that okay, thezmon?

No.

Do you think Thez is truly scum or are you mainly on his bandwagon to get information from a lynch?

My middle name, Information, honey.

So you want to generate information on other players, but behave in a way that does not allow anybody to get any information on you? Doesn't sound like information actually is your middle name.

So you're saying you fully know, 100%, without a doubt, what my alignment is? Because to me it just looks like you are lynch-hungry.

Wait wait wait. I get that you misunderstood njoseph's post, but that just makes this weirder. I don't see how a townie could possibly ask that question to someone that is voting him. What answer could you imagine him giving and what response would you have?

How about this paradigm? Unvoting from you coupled with the assumption that you get investigated by a presumably existing investigative role?

Ummm... this doesn't fly. Directing the cop. Implying that a lynch isn't needed if you can exchange it for a cop investigation. No no no.

Okay, I think someone who is more likely to be scum is

VOTE: KillerApple

. I agree with BirdandBeast's thought on this one.

What thought?

Sounds logical enough. But is it too heuristical? Maybe not. Scum want to see what wagon there is that eventually grows.

Which post are you referring to here?

I liked the part about scum's being on a wagon later. Is KillerApple on the thezmon wagon?

Hmmm... "Can i make evidence for why the person my vote is on is scum" after placing his vote. I can see this coming from scum or a tunneling townie, but nj doesn't seem to be tunneling. But would scum be so... transparent? Hmmm...

[nhammen]

Yeah, that was a townie move from KillerApple (unless this is some sort of elaborate trick).
UNVOTE: KillerApple
VOTE: njoseph

[nhammen]

Yeah, I don't want this to happen.

unvote: thez

vote: Sixx

Sixx is scum. You all probably know this already, considering how glaringly obvious it is, but there you have it.

AngryMastin: I thought Heather was scum. I don't think Jal is scum independent of Heather; consider me torn on that slot's alignment. I have a strong feeling njoseph is ineffectually trying to fake his town meta. AJ is probably scum too.

Don't like this post. New vote saying Sixx-scum is obvious, when he had literally not mentioned a read on Sixx before this. Strange meta-faking paranoia. Lumping AJ in for no apparent reason. Scummy scummy scummy.

also going to make sure that everyone caught this
"yeah i reread the thread like twice and the one guy with the largest wagon on him seems like scum. also one other guy."
nope

I agree that this looks bad, and I found the previous slotholder scummy, but I don't know for certain whether this is just bad or scummy.

I've noticed throughout the game that lots of people aren't explaining their votes when they make them. Basically all of page 3 is an example of this. This is a pet peeve of mine, because without explanations votes do not contribute to discussion.

I should also note that I am entirely in favor of policy lynching bad players on D1 so long as there isn't a vastly superior choice.

Unvote

Vote BirdAndBeast

Does not compute. Your explanation was originally a feeling that they were buddying, but then that didn't make sense, and his switch on Roger, and his accepting of sheep. Accepting of sheep is playstyle and you even acknowledge this in your "playstyle meshing" comment.

The evidence you present does not match being "a vastly superior choice."

Apparently to you it does...

Okay, nhammen jumped off the KillerApple wagon. I no longer really like the thezmon wagon; I don't really abhor it, either. I am not pleased by the Ztife wagon, though. Ztife looks like null to town new player, and I think voting for him is scummy. That said, jeck has made sense to me before, and I do not want to threw out the credit I have given--I think I called him logical, but I think this Ztife wagon is an instance of wrong assumptions.

That leaves Sixx, and he's bad for being on Ztife wagon, and is not given the credit I have given to Sixx, nothing about Sixx has stood out to me as markingly, to me, townie. Markingly townie qualities is what makes the game good.

UNVOTE

VOTE: Sixx

Wow am I happy with my vote. If Ztife is scum, then this reeks of chainsawing. If Ztife is not scum, then you shouldn't be voting for Ztife. Thus, njoseph is a strictly better wagon than Ztife. The only "scummy" behavior he mentions is the vote on Sixx. What? And his mention of jeck is "hey! my reads are consistent! Look!"

Seeing that you started it, it wasn't a wagon until jeck went on it. But did you not intend Ztife to pay for his acts that may seemed to have reeked of scumminess?

Ummm... either Sixx is scum and there is no reeking of scumminess to motivate his vote, or Sixx is town and believed them to reek of scumminess. This post seems to implicitly assume Sixx is town while you are attacking him.

I don't really care about the answer.

Then why ask?

When you said this, which reads were different?

I'm not afraid to say my suspicions. Are you? Is there an underlying thought process that people who have different reads are more likely scum? You seem to be getting at that point without ever really raising it.

So come off it. Tell me. Why are you really asking these questions?

I played mafia on a different site for about the past 6 months. It is a different language so I never bother linking anyone to it. It also contains sensitive information that I would rather not share with the general populus.

Thank you for this. That helps. I will now state where I was coming from with my suspicion. There is a thread in MD about how to play as scum (I have it in my sig). If you are an alt, there is a high chance you have read this thread. Your play here seems to match what is suggested in that thread. One specific strategy mentioned is to have players who are unlikely to be lynched in your scumlist, which you have. Therefore, I wanted to know the likelihood of you having read that thread. Your answer strongly indicates that you have not read that thread, and so your reads do not indicate scum to me.

Would he not be scummy by his own admission if the other site's meta is scummy as you say?

Or maybe he knows how to read them better and they are not following their traditional town play?

Why are you applying paranoia to his scumlist when you should be applying veracity to it?

No, scummy means coming from scum. If he is misidentifying "coming from another sites meta" as "coming from scum" then this is not scummy behavior he is finding, and needed to be corrected. Mastin is a good player and that slot is probably town, and I wanted to help out. The probability that every player from that site ended up in a scum role is incredibly small. Why in the hell should I apply veracity to an almost certainly incorrect scumlist? That doesn't even make sense!

Who is more legitimate and likely to be accurate of reads - a person who never played on their site, or a person who knows their meta?

Person who knows their meta. Why ask this question?

I invite you all to come onto my Nhammen wagon. He isn't really doing anything to further town getting more information.

Honestly Bumi, I don't see what problem you are having with my play. This statement of yours isn't remotely true.

[nhammen]

EBWOP: In reply to post 527, it should be

The only "scummy" behavior he mentions is

Sixx's

vote on

Ztife

.

[nhammen]

And Ztife apparently.
Did you notice my post?
I'll quote it below.

Okay, nhammen jumped off the KillerApple wagon. I no longer really like the thezmon wagon; I don't really abhor it, either. I am not pleased by the Ztife wagon, though. Ztife looks like null to town new player, and I think voting for him is scummy. That said, jeck has made sense to me before, and I do not want to threw out the credit I have given--I think I called him logical, but I think this Ztife wagon is an instance of wrong assumptions.

That leaves Sixx, and he's bad for being on Ztife wagon, and is not given the credit I have given to Sixx, nothing about Sixx has stood out to me as markingly, to me, townie. Markingly townie qualities is what makes the game good.

UNVOTE

VOTE: Sixx

Wow am I happy with my vote. If Ztife is scum, then this reeks of chainsawing. If Ztife is not scum, then you shouldn't be voting for Ztife. Thus, njoseph is a strictly better wagon than Ztife. The only "scummy" behavior he mentions is the vote on Sixx. What? And his mention of jeck is "hey! my reads are consistent! Look!"

[nhammen]

I'll dig through tomorrow and illustrate why AA is scum. My vote will more than likely change at that point.

I'll be waiting to hear this before I make any judgements. But I am very interested to see where your ideas on Scum Group A come from.

Also,

V/LA over the weekend while en route to Reckoning

[nhammen]

njoseph said that my thought process made sense why would he do that if he's a scum? he would have wanted me to vote on thez and not on Sora/nacho if he was scum, thats why he doesnt look like scum, more like null-townish.

I'm not sure your expectations of scum-nj are correct.

You could show these connections about a large number of players in this game. I don't see anything special about the BB and AA connection you posit. Also, AA's dayvig stuff looks more dumb than scum.

JacobSavage is actively lurking. From his numerous posts I see little scum hunting, and dubious wagoning.

280 putting thez at l-3 and changing later when a quick lynch is not evident. This vote is really fishy to me.

He also posts pretty actively in other games, but hardly contributes anything here. Only scrum reads he has on 329 but elaborates little.

I have noticed similar things. Still not enough for me to vote him, but its definitely getting there.

Conclusion

- Extremely weak wagon. Only NM gives any valid reasoning and it is quite a stretch. Parama at least sheeped the best reasoning even though it was weak.

I agree. I currently have a null read on Sixx. This type of analysis also seems to indicate that you are most likely town. Unless Sixx is scum.

cum hunting

This is the best typo I've seen in a while

This is the best active lurking i have seen in a while.

Conclusion

- Fairly reasonable wagon. Though there are some very weak votes on this wagon, it appears there was much more thought put into the reasoning for the votes put on Thez by many players compared to the amount of thought put into the reasoning behind the current votes we're seeing on Sixx.

I had voted for thez, but I don't see my vote in this analysis. What gives?

I make perfect sense. but elobrate why I don't make sense please.

No you really really don't. Your "logic" is more convoluted than a tangle of spaghetti. Luckily, I have seen enough to know that you appear to be town, so difficulty in reads is a non-issue.

Bride of Sadistyx was someone whom I voted for and thought guttingly could actually be scum.
I tend to give weight to my first impression gut reads; I've been swayed when I had thought too much in the past about second-guessing. Anyway, replace KillerApple with Bride of Sadistyx for my reasoning, I knew it was a scummy slot.
I have similar rationale for SlySly and IdiotK's being more likely to be scum on top of their own lack of markedly town style:
SlySly replaced by scummy KA & IdiotK replaced by scummy Bride of Sadistyx.
I stand by my Sixx vote despite BB turning on me. Sixx doesn't feel right enough to let live.

The fact that you couldn't remember who he replaced, even though both potential slots were scummy, indicates to me that this reasoning is fake.

Slysly is scummy for considering multiball when nothing has hinted at that. Not town thinking. When I see two people being scummy and there's no way they can be together, I just assume if one flips scum in the future the other probably isn't.

Agree. I have a town read on SlySly, but if this game turns out to be multiball, that read flips to a scumread instantly.

[nhammen]

Sorry, spent all weekend with my brother, so did no reading. Will catch up today & tomorrow.

Who are you?

[nhammen]

Your scum buddy scenario seems to be that all the scum decided to buddy each other and made poor choices regardless of experiences. Not buying it. As Baby Spice pointed out, even if you think Bumi is scum, it's more likely he is just buddying Arc for being a newbie who would probably be ran up.

That's exactly my opinion of his hypothesis.

I don't care if you buy it or not. Face it, even people with experience fuck up sometimes. Some around this site just can't get that through their head.

Mastin does fuck up, but when he does, it is in entirely different ways than you are suggesting.

Seriously do people not understand large games?
It doesn't matter if you don't hit scum on the first day, you're removing what is perceived by half the game to be an anti-town threat. Find someone, lynch them, and get information night 1. Every. Goddamn. Game.
We don't need a month to decide on a lynch that's probably going to end up being on town, kthx.

From this logic and the current vote counts, we have a few possibilities. Worst case, both Sixx and njoseph are town, and we are running up two townies. In this case, I think that njoseph would be the better lynch than Sixx, because njoseph has been intentionally making himself unreadable, while Sixx does have connections that will allow him to be read later in the game. If we are not considering this case, and we are trying to decide who is scummier, then njoseph is the better lynch because him making himself intentionally unreadable could easily be scum motivated (but could also be derptown). On Sixx, I have a nullread with a very minor town lean, because his behavior matches with confused town unfamiliar with our meta. Either way, I see njoseph as the clear lynch choice for today, if we are deciding between these two choices.

It's not fair to assume that I won't be more engaged as more information comes to the fray later.

There is no evidence to support this. Why should we believe that your behavior will change in later days, if you have refused to change it now?

I am not creative right now; what would you want me to do? Give me example(s).

Examples: posts by pretty much any other player in the game!

If you're asking for reasoning,

reasoning is easily presentable.

Hell, I have no need to rehash cases or reread the thread, step up a bit and click his ISO. I can quote it for you if you would like, with my opinions on his comments, but again... rehashed and it is still a series of my opinions which you seem to have issue with here. It boils down to: I think him mafia, so I have voted him because he has a decent train and the others I think scum don't. What more could you need?

Considering there is a lack of reasoning on him, go ahead. Dumbledore challenged me to why I don't think he's scum, and he went V/LA. If you read my Post 635, I went through and explained why I felt it was a bad wagon. I have seen just about no reasoning behind the votes before or after that post so... what I'd like is for you to please give me reasoning to why he's scum, and if you can't do such, kindly turn your vote onto njoseph.

Also, look at SlySly's 616. I really am not seeing this Sixx case.

Hell, at least NJ is actually commenting on crap.

Umm, have you been reading the same game as me?

I think Ztife (Camo replacement) is scum. That post that Nacho called out a few pages back WAS really awful. I couldn't really put my finger on it at first, but it just looks like bad posturing. Jeck's read list was bad too. Im squinting at idiotking, but he might just be an idiot king.

I thought camo was scum, so I can definitely entertain this Ztife idea. I'll have to go back and look at the post in question. Also, I have a slight townread on Jeck, but his posts all seem to look illogical.

[nhammen]

Hi. I got prodded, while on the bus back from Reckoning. It has been a while since my last post, so I will take some time to catch up. My brief skim showed that Sixx flipped scum, even though I had him as null with a slight town lean. Very interesting. I will have to do my catch up with this in mind.

[nhammen]

Catching up on 20 pages of posts since I last posted is killing me. I briefly considered replacing out, but then realized that I would just be punishing my replacement by forcing them to read the same.

B&B will not stop defending AA. Scum defend weaker scum. Sometimes the obvious is good enough.

Ummm... Scum also defend townies, to take them down with them. Town defend townreads. B&B's defense of AA is quite strong, but I know for a fact that Mastin does this as town because an instance of this is why he is mastin2 rather than Mastin. It is part of his town meta (but a part I would have expected him to learn from)

[nhammen]

The problem (just from reading this last page) is that you are putting a lot of emphasis on it. It's like you are desperately grasping for straws that make you appear townie.

[nhammen]

Oh, nhammen, have you ever been in a game where there was blue scum and there wasn't red scum?

Not that I can think of. Why?

[nhammen]

You know, I didn't state what I wanted to state because I was going for too much conciseness there. Why does it affect this game?

Note: I believe it is very likely multiball.

[nhammen]

Hmmm... I forgot about that. Tough one. You did consider multiball before everyone else, but the logic you used for many of these wagons was quite sound, and also I don't think scum would have gone out and reminded me to consider them as a scumread. As scum, I would think that you would hope I'd forget about that. I know that if roles were reversed I would. Also, a lot depends on what I see during my catch up... which I still intend to do, although I have covered 2 out of 20 pages in the past 2 hours... But for the time being, that does not look as scummy as I had believed it would.

[nhammen]

Although, I was forced to ISO myself during my reread and I also made a comment that you are most likely town unless Sixx flips scum, and it is because your attempts to knock down the Sixx wagon looked townish to me. Now that we know Sixx is scum... not so much.

[nhammen]

Slowly catching up.

Seriously do people not understand large games?
It doesn't matter if you don't hit scum on the first day, you're removing what is perceived by half the game to be an anti-town threat. Find someone, lynch them, and get information night 1. Every. Goddamn. Game.
We don't need a month to decide on a lynch that's probably going to end up being on town, kthx.

From this logic and the current vote counts, we have a few possibilities. Worst case, both Sixx and njoseph are town, and we are running up two townies.

In this case, I think that njoseph would be the better lynch than Sixx, because njoseph has been intentionally making himself unreadable, while Sixx does have connections that will allow him to be read later in the game. If we are not considering this case, and we are trying to decide who is scummier, then njoseph is the better lynch because him making himself intentionally unreadable could easily be scum motivated (but could also be derptown).

On Sixx, I have a nullread with a very minor town lean, because his behavior matches with confused town unfamiliar with our meta. Either way, I see njoseph as the clear lynch choice for today, if we are deciding between these two choices.

This is a good way of putting the major argument of njoseph together in a semi-concise statement, so +1.

I encourage everyone to read Nhammen's latest post and tell me with a straight face that there is anything useful in that cloud of smoke.

Does everyone not include thez, since he had already shown something he felt was useful in a post between mine and yours?

Good for you, A.P.; look at how far down the spectrum nhamm is in my elevator to hell:

How is that relevant to the post you are referring to, other than a blatant buddying attempt?

I honestly didn't think of it like that when I first saw this. It's possible, but very weak. Very weak. Also, the same could be said of this post of yours. You seem to be coming to my defense quite a bit. Is there any reason other than a blatant budding attempt?

All of his post are packaged and pretty and filmed on a green screen. It like hes filling in Mad libs: player:____________ is alignment:______________ because of common-tell:___________________. Player:__________________, what do you think of Player:_____________?

Am I wrong?

I just ISOed myself to defend against this, and your statement is not remotely true. Could you give me a list of posts that you consider to be following this behavior? (Also, thank you soooo much for giving me extra work in ISOing myself. I really enjoy the feeling of being burdened with so much)

Ugh. The misunderstanding between PV and nj on p34/35 is where I am stopping for now. Need food and less stupid. At least both of them seem to be town so hey reads.

[nhammen]

Oh god! In the time I caught up on 2 pages, I think there were 2 new pages!

[nhammen]

Nope. Only 1... still bad.

[nhammen]

No wait, it was 2. Good god... this will go slow.

[nhammen]

Okay. The task of catching up has become more and more daunting, and so I get farther and farther behind, causing a viscous cycle. I have been able to skim, but skimming misses a lot. I don't know how Llama was able to catch up. As I see it, there are two real options for me: either replace out, or stop trying to catch up and just read the game starting at the current state. I will comment a lot on one post I noticed when I was skimming, because B&B seems to have a scum read on me for one post, and I think I can refute pretty much every argument that he brings up.

This just looks like bad posturing.

The reason I made the statement you are replying to is because the lack of comments did not match Jacob's meta at all. I have modded a Mini Normal he was in, and the main thing I remember is that on day 1 he was very analytical, with a spreadsheet he posted and everything. However, I did not want to make a big deal out of it, because his lurking might not be related to his alignment, and I was waiting to see what he did when he stopped lurking. I still haven't decided how I feel about him.

More really bad posturing. Townies defend scum. It happens. Why would a scum flip from Sixx change honest-looking analysis into scum-motivated analysis? This is just you trying to look like you have opinions (but you dont because you are scum)

This is actually a fair point. I had decided that scum Sly would have little motivation for this action if Sixx was Town, and Town Sly would have equivalent motivation for this regardless of Sixx's alignment. Thus, if Sixx flips scum (which he since has done), Sly would be more likely to be scum. But this difference is minimal, and so I probably shouldn't have made as much of a point out of it as I did.

So? Like half the game is lurking. Why say this?

Something about the way Parama did it annoyed me.

What gives? Ok, you are beating around the bush / trying to make slysly look bad. Why not just ask him / tell him

I... did ask him. In what you quoted. That's kinda what "what gives" is. And he answered by the way. I don't know what I was expecting from an answer, but I didn't get anything in either direction. And this wasn't trying to make Sly look bad. It was trying to see if I could make heads or tails of the fact that I was left out. Like maybe something alignment worthy?

Really? You tell your townread that his logic is bad. Without telling him why its bad? Just gonna throw that "Your logic sucks" out there for fun?

Jeck had been stating all game how wonderful his "logic" was, and I wanted to point out that it wasn't just one person who very greatly disagreed with that. I could say that the reason that I didn't tell him why is because his question was directed at another player (Sixx) and I didn't want to answer for someone else, but the main reason I didn't answer is that I don't even know where to begin.

Oh please. That is a terrible and sleazy way to call Nj scummy. There were so many replacements this game I gave up on tracking them. The misinformation doesnt mean anything.

Really? He had put Idiotking second to bottom on his scumlist solely based on the "fact" that Idiot replaced KillerApple and that Idiotking hadn't done anything "markingly townie". When informed that this replacement was not true, and thus his entire reasoning for putting Idiotking second from the bottom was nullified, his response was that this other player slot was also scummy so the list still works. Even though the ENTIRE reasoning for Idiotking's placement on it was shown to be false. That doesn't strike you as scummy?

You sure aren't treating him like a townread. And really you forgot about this? Slysly was one of the people you were posting about actively, yet you forgot about 2 things tht would make him obviously scummy after the Sixx flip?

I can sorta see why you would say that first sentence, since I did ask a question to help get a read on him. I just really liked the analysis he did, and thought it appeared townie. But at the same time, analysis such as that is easily faked, so although he appeared townie, I wasn't that certain of it. Also, I forgot about that post a WEEK LATER after I pretty much forgot about the game. Is that surprising? Heck, it took a while to remember why I made that Jacob comment at the beginning when I was responding to this post of yours.

[nhammen]

I'm the wagon du jour now? You guys need to get your head out of your asses.

We are either lynching AJ (the relational tells with sixx are astounding (have a link)) or NJ (his active lurking shtick is scummy as hell)

The AJ thing is possible. I noticed in that double iso that they ignored each other for a looong time. Other than that, the relational tells are actually not much. AJ attacking Arc for "fishing" for a dayvig, when Arc wanted Sixx dayvigged (and AJ was not alone in this). Sixx listing AJ as null. Minor things. But the lack of contact between the two of them could be something. A few people higher up the page are commenting on a lack of contact between Sixx and PV though.





Hey Jacob, have you been keeping a spreadsheet like you did in the game I modded? If so, could you ask the mod here if posting that would be allowed?

[nhammen]

Also, I'd like to point out that I don't like this Librarian wagon. I still have a strong townread on TML from the first half of the game. Additionally, his recent behavior seems to closely match my current mindset, except for his willingness to sheep, which is probably better than my lurking. In conclusion, his mindset clearly comes from a town perspective.

[nhammen]

You trio of non-voters, don't make me bitch.

Meh. All my scum reads are no longer scumreads (except maybe Dumbledore, but my main reasoning was the way he hopped on the Sixx wagon, so I'm not comfortable pursuing him at this time). I have a lot of townreads, and am strongly considering PoE, except the current wagon is on one of my strongest town reads. Also three of the two-vote wagons are all on players I have slight townreads on (yes, I have switched my read on njoseph to a very slight town read). I could go for kj though. I'll iso him now.

[nhammen]

That was fast. Mostly null. A few townish posts and a few scummy posts. It's not something I'd usually go for, but by PoE, it's acceptable.
VOTE: killerjester

[nhammen]

I'm not jumping to conclusions. NYPD is not MRC. Parama confirmed that in the game, cops are their own faction.

Parama never said anything about Cops being a faction. At all. But what he did do is mention Cop cars before anybody else (including the mod; including Sixx himself) had done so. It's too bad Parama isn't here to answer for this. I feel kinda guilty doing this to a replacement.
VOTE: Llama

[nhammen]

I'd like to apologize to everyone for flaking out. I think you have the right idea on changing your deadline rules Stranger; that D1 was awful. But that is no excuse for flaking, so I will say again that I am sorry.