Secret Alt Mafia 2 – Game over!

[You are dead to me]

VOTE: Great Value

Serious vote.

[You are dead to me]

Why is it horrible?

[You are dead to me]

GreatValue, I'm not voting you for any of the reasons you think I am. I don't care about the "stifling discussion" point. It is dumb and not scummy. I didn't even recall that someone else voted you at the time.

[You are dead to me]

Also I'm townreading Greatvalue

For?

[You are dead to me]

That entry post and paragraph was far too strong-arming. "Look at me! I'm the guy with everyone's best interests at heart

Closer to my reason for voting him than what GreatValue thought it was. But not the same.

What do you think of his response to me?

[You are dead to me]

I've already established myself in an active town role.

Happy with my vote.

People townreading GreatValue: don't read his posts at face value. Read between the lines.

Dimitri Davidoff: welcome to my scumpile. Great Value, meet Dimitri. Dimitri, meet Great Value.

Tags fixed. ~Quil

[You are dead to me]

It would greatly help your win condition more if you were to be more articulate in explaining your stances and reasoning behind your reads.

This is newbtown.

[You are dead to me]

This is newbtown.

Out of all the reasons to townread him you put him as newbtown?
lol

He doesn't look new at all to me.

No, when I first read his posts, I thought he was town if he was a newb. He let slip that he was a newbie later on at which point I read him as town.

And yes, he's a newb. Less than 6 months to a year, I'd say.

Why doesn't he look new to you?

[You are dead to me]

What did I just read!?

This is attention-grabbing, considering that I was about to classify you as a VI myself.

Yeah, confirmed newbie.

For future reference, people who don't articulate their thoughts early game do it for a variety of reasons. Wanting to see the reaction of their target, wanting to see the reaction of other players, to see if others disagree and what it says about them. In my case, it was all of the above. If I ~couldn't~ articulate my thoughts, I'd have said "gut" or something similar rather than play hard to get.

[You are dead to me]

Vote Dimitri

Dead boy's a good vote, too. Both are scum. Don't know about Aristocrat. I'll wait for him to insult me a bit before a make up my mind.

I'm going to assume you have a townread on Greatvalue and a null-read on Shiba. Why?

[You are dead to me]

Natural Aristocracy can go in the townpile along with Shiba.

[You are dead to me]

Gumby can go into the scumpile.

[You are dead to me]

Great Value = town.

Because he dissed the RQS and then gave a paragraph-long explanation for why?

[You are dead to me]

This could be 50% bad town / 50% bad scum... so 100% bad but only 50% scum.

Lol, no. There are bad surface-level reasons to suspect Greatvalue: "stifling conversation" "not answering RQS because he's afraid he'll get caught" "overexplaining himself" etc. I'm not voting him for any of that shit, and I wish people would stop assuming.

There are mid-level reasons to read Greatvalue as town. He has a genuine-sounding tone. He talks like he believes what he's saying. People at this level are assuming I'm using level 1 reasoning to scumread him.

There are high-level reasons why Greatvalue is scummy. No one has touched on this yet. Natural Aristocracy came close but didn't nail them.

[You are dead to me]

Gumby can go into the scumpile.

Man, solid reads after one post, this guy must know his shit /s

Sucks getting caught after one post.

Did you read what I wrote about Shiba after the post you quoted?

[You are dead to me]

I wasn't explaining anything. I was correcting your assumption.

I don't see any towntells from Gumby yet. His reaction to me looked pretty scummy actually.

[You are dead to me]

Gumby can go into the scumpile.

Man, solid reads after one post, this guy must know his shit /s

Sucks getting caught after one post.

Did you read what I wrote about Shiba after the post you quoted?

I did. I disagree. You may see "someone who has lived here for under a year" as newbie, but I feel that once a player has completed 5 or more games, they are exempt from any benefit of the doubt (read: weak reasons to townread) from being "newbtown". Otherwise you're honestly suggesting that they completed 5 (well probably about 3 town games but ya know) games as newbtown without gaining enough skill to be read as anything beyond newbtown. That is rubbish.

Your strawman of my point is rubbish, sure.

That wasn't my actual point. I don't care about your definition of what a newbie is. Newbies sometimes give off the lost, clueless vibe that betrays that they are town. Shiba gave off that vibe when he accused Greatvalue. Not knowing his experience level, I hesitated to read him as town for it. But whenhe called me out for not articulating my thoughts, I realized that he was indeed a newbie and deduced that his previous behavior was town.

Your beef with isn't based on any of that. You first tell me I'm finding excuses to read Shiba as newbtown. Then you rant about how our definitions of newbie differ. Then you call your strawman rubbish. That's why I'm asking whether you actually read my posts.

[You are dead to me]

Gumby can go into the scumpile.

Man, solid reads after one post, this guy must know his shit /s

Sucks getting caught after one post.

Did you read what I wrote about Shiba after the post you quoted?

Good catch actually

but he is also dropping town tells.

Is this sarcasm or are you talking about the fact that Gumby didn't read my post? I can't tell.

[You are dead to me]

Gumby, I assume Shiba's played a lot of newbie games. It explains the strong stances on RVS vs RQS but lack of exposure to playstyles where people don't explain their reasons.

[You are dead to me]

For the people who have yet to show up, I assume a typical readslist will look like this:

Greatvalue - He's being "clear with his thoughts," "figuring things out" and explained himself well. Town.
Gumby - He's being aggressive and asking questions. Town.
Spider Gwen - He said what I thought and I agree with his suspicions of Dead to me. Town.
QuailfordLOL - His analysis that Shiba's RQS was bad is accurate. I agree. Town.

Natural Aristocracy - I like some of his posts but some of them look he's buddying. Null.

Shiba - His RQS didn't serve any purpose. Greatvalue made good points. Lean scum.

Dimitri - Bussing you are dead to me. Greatvalue also made a "good point" about buddying. Possible scum.
You are dead to me - She's an ass who isn't explaining any of her points. I hate that vote on my townread Greatvalue. She's also buddying Shiba and called him town too easily. Lynch with fire.

[You are dead to me]

QuailfordLOL - His analysis that Shiba's RQS was bad is accurate. I agree. Town.

Do you agree with him about Shiba being scum just because of that bad RQS though?
Because that looked like an awful lot of opportunist screening of bad=scum to me.

Read the heading. It's not my readslist. It is how I expect someone who hasn't checked in yet to read the game. We'll see.

[You are dead to me]

Gumby, can you paraphrase the wording in your role PM?

[You are dead to me]

That's still not a bad reason for this early in the game.

Actually it is.

[You are dead to me]

Yeah, which is the only reason I don't find him scummy.

[You are dead to me]

All naked votes are equally bad or just because you are townreading the recipient of the naked vote?

[You are dead to me]

I think Gumby's town.

[You are dead to me]

Can't say the same for Fear Thy Name is Dipsy.

[You are dead to me]

I like NA so far. Why is he scum?

[You are dead to me]

Your reads are more in line with mine and unlike most other people's. Do you have any thoughts on why that could be?

[You are dead to me]

Your reads are more in line with mine and unlike most other people's. Do you have any thoughts on why that could be?

I don't know exactly why. Yet the agreement I got when I read your posts made me place you as solid town. A few people were wagoned early and now most everyone agreeing with you has received a vote or two.

I think scum tried to wagon you, got called out for it, and are searching for easy pickings.

I also think I know who you are.

What do you think of Greatvalue accusing Dimitri of buddying him? You think they're both on a scumteam? You are also the first person to accuse Greatvalue since RVS. Care to share your reasons?

[You are dead to me]

All true. Regarding Dipsy.

Spider Gwen can go into the townpile.

[You are dead to me]

NA, I'm voting my scumread. But I think that was obvious?

If you are hoping for a better answer, you need to rephrase your question. People make lots of assumption about the purpose of votes and I'm not sure in which camp you lie.

[You are dead to me]

I'll vote who I want when I want. But thank you for the mafia advice. And I'm the last person you can accuse of coasting.

[You are dead to me]

Actually wait. Spider Gwen, why are you townreading me now? You had a strong scumread on me, then townread me because you thought you knew who I was - which you guessed wrong because you thought I was a guy - but once you realized that, why didn't that change your read back?

[You are dead to me]

Maybe I was wrong about NA being town. Hmm. Now this investment doesn't seem so good.

[You are dead to me]

You want to get the wagon off of me? I currently have two votes, soothsayer (RVS before I posted) and Shiba. Neither posted in fourteen hours. What is this "high-numbered" wagon on me that I don't know of?

[You are dead to me]

There's something dissonant about your posts. For instance with Shiba, I could tell easily that he was newb-town. With you, on the one hand your case on Dipsy suggests you played mafia for quite a while, and on the other hand, you keep talking about things like trying to move votes off of a wagon that's never going to go to lynch anyways like it actually matters that a couple of people are voting me which suggests not understanding how wagons work and looks like you are trying to kiss up to me.

[You are dead to me]

What I missed was Aristocrat's question. His walls are tedious to read.

[You are dead to me]

I must have.

Talk more about this extra barrier that you see with Dimitri.

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What do you think of Natural Aristocracy's posts?

[You are dead to me]

I was asking more about the manner of posting. His latest posts look forced and since you used that descriptor for Dimitri, I wanted to see if you think it applies to NA.

What is your opinion on Concorde's posting and the positions he took in relation to me vs general concensus?

[You are dead to me]

I wouldn't really say Natural Aristocracy has been immovable. I get the opposite impression. There's something slimy and smarmy about the way he talks and the language that he uses. This post is particularly bothersome:

Thanks, SpiderGwen. I definitely see what you mean. I was not a huge fan of Dipsy's entrance, myself, as it seemed to sling a bit of mud but not really achieve anything. It felt ephemeral and weightless. I suppose you're more on the money with actual criticism, there.

Do you think Dipsy's off-the-cuff approach and pushing could come from a town slot?
About how long do you want to interact with other players before going with a lynch for the first day?
If you could choose any single wagon to fold into yours on Dipsy, which would you choose and why?


I like that you are pulling this much from the few posts that Dipsy has. I wonder how Dipsy will respond--I was originally curious if your retaliation for him was solely coming from a place of OMGUS frustration and confirmation bias. It seems like you're extrapolating meaningful connections from his posts rather than just conjuring points out of thin air, so that's good.

[You are dead to me]

unvote

Vote: Natural Aristocracy

[You are dead to me]

I've fallen so far behind due to a lack of a computer. Although I've skimmed on my phone from time to time but no actual in depth reading.

Spider Gwen seemed like a good investment when he was parading his case around but with my fellow sharks so interested in leg-humping, I'm going to have to stay out.

Phantom of the Opera: you are a smooth talker but you don't have the numbers to back that up. You're a great salesman but you have a product, not a business.

[You are dead to me]

Personally, I think we can learn more about the alignments of players from who they are leg-humping and why than by going over the arguments they've made.

Phantom of the Opera: you described Spider Gwen as a "strong player." Talk about this more. What gave you this impression that he was a strong player over and above anyone else in this game?

To the person who was agreeing with Spider Gwen's cases and pushes and calling them "insightful," "good" and other such compliments, could you explain what exactly about them was good. If you don't off of your own accord, I will find you when I actually read the thread and check who said what.

[You are dead to me]

Soothsayer, did you actually read me as town off of a theory post where I explained the motivations for concealing early game reads? Please tell me you are not serious and if you are, explain why.

[You are dead to me]

Mr. Established Active McTownRole isn't living up to his name. Clearly he is drowning with real life work which absolutely takes precedence over an online forum game. Gee, what a believable excuse.

[You are dead to me]

Dead to me, I think this is an oversight. For the most part, I have disagreed with SG's cases. I still think they come from a town place though. She is pushing factually true cases based off her misinterpreting posts, thus leading her to the wrong reads.

I do think Phantom has a business I could see thriving. I just prefer my own business of lynching ST. Do you stand by your conclusions?

Your NA business is glitzy but lacks strong financials or a solid business plan. Do not invest.

Perhaps I was unclear. I don't have a lot of problems with Spider Gwen's cases and I think he may even be able to succeed without an investment. I find his cases fairly average but I distinctly recall people holding them (and Gwen himself) in high regard. It is those people I suspect have something to hide (crippling debts perhaps, or a scum-aligned role PM). I don't think that was you. I'll know who it was once I comb through these tedious balance sheets that people have put up in my absence.

[You are dead to me]

Looks like there's some catch up I need to do. I think I'll start from a blank slate and re-read from page one onwards.

[You are dead to me]

Mostly, I want to question soothsayer.

[You are dead to me]

I didn't like Dipsy's opening posts. I didn't read his later posts much in-depth but I wasn't impressed so no.

[You are dead to me]

Soothsayer, are you questioning Spider Gwen with (1) no meta assumptions or (2) do you think you have an idea of who the alt is and you think he's competent at the game and so you don't want to give him a free pass?

I don't want to know who you think it is. I just want to know if the answer is (1) or (2). If neither, elaborate a bit. I just want your thought process. I'm not asking you to guess.

[You are dead to me]

@Deadle: Thoughts on possibility of Aristocrat and Dipsy being on the same team?

I haven't noticed anything interesting in their interactions. Point me to the posts I should be looking at and I'll take note as I catch up.

[You are dead to me]

Why is your read on me weaker Soothsayer?

[You are dead to me]

Reading the first page reminds me of my GreatValue scumread. It doesn't look like he'll ever come back so I'll explain a bit. I wasn't scumreading him for dumb things like "stifling discussion." I was scumreading him for tone.

Look at the following two quotes:

Post edit: wow, you saw right through my façade. How insightful of you.

This is the kind of answer I see scum post a lot more than town. I'm not sure of the exact motivation for it, just that they do. My guess is that by discrediting the attack on them, they hope that the town will take the attacker less seriously.

But thank you for trying to call me out on this. It's a much more productive discussion than what you were originally going for.

This reads as "oh, look at me so not bothered by the scumreads" and also like an unsuccessful attempt to control the interaction. GreatValue tries to frame the conversation as if he's the one in control and calling the shots but in reality he's responding to Shiba's scumread. Scum tend to want to create the illusion they're in charge because feel like they can achieve their goals better. I occasionally see this type of behavior from town but it's more prevalent in scum. It's not spectacular reasoning but it's good reasoning and the best I had on page one so I voted.

Then he responds by omgus'ing me while at the same time pre-emptively suggesting that I'd discredit it as scum which I find a bit lame but not very alignment indicative.

Why is it horrible?

Because I'm calling out the BS early on, and choosing to put myself out there in doing so.

So if you're scum, that's the perfect opportunity to join the wagon with an easily faked scumread on me for "stifling discussion," when I've been completely upfront about how

yes

, that was obviously the intent.

And if you're town, you clearly haven't actually thought about it or even considered my points.

Why are you asking me if it's horrible?

When I ask him why my vote is bad, he speculates on my reasons for voting him which are just garbage strawmen. "Stifling discussion" is the stupidest reason to vote anyone ever. I felt like he would have asked me why I'm voting him but he never does even after I specify that I'm not voting him for the reasons he thinks I am. The part where he says I haven't thought about it or considered his points is even worse because he's again trying to draw conclusions without actually asking what my reasoning was.

You should suggest better ones then, instead of proceeding to brainless and strictly inferior RVS.

There are no better ways to start the game. Your random questions are brainless and strictly inferior as any RQS and RVS as your questions does nothing to help progress the game.

But how about to garner reaction? Well, that's what the brainless and strictly inferior RVS does too.

By the way, I'm more surprised that you expected nothing but a "RQS is bad" given that's what happens if you decide to RQS in this site.

I wouldn't categorize his questions as random or brainless (a word which you used twice!) at all; RQS has the word random in it, but it only applies to 1, 2, and 4 in the sense that they're questions intended to start discussion.

Did you even read them thoroughly before choosing that stance? In any other scenario they're decent at worst. It just looks like you're trying to buddy up to me with the Shiba criticism, the Yadtm vote, and that townread on me since I've already established myself in an active town role.

VOTE: Dimitri

Serious vote. Take note, Yadtm.

(Also, I'll note how rejecting the RQS post led Dimitri to reveal he's familiar with RQS attempts here anyway. Which isn't too uncommon, but it's pretty funny to me.)

Finally there's the Dimitry vote. It doesn't look like the thought process of a townie actually trying to read people. The whole crap about how he's an established active town role is kind of a stretch and also looks like another subtle way to imply that he's in charge. My guess was that Dimitry was scum with GreatValue and GreatValue is trying to make it look like Dimitry was "buddying" him so when Dimitry flips, people instinctually associate GreatValue with town.

The disappearing act since while not conclusive and may have external explanations obviously isn't sitting well with me.

So, when the entire town starts dancing to his tune and praising his reasoning, my first thought was "what the fuck is wrong with these people?" My feeling now is that a lot of the traditionally "weaker" players were in the game at that time and the stronger ones hadn't posted much.

[You are dead to me]

Why is your read on me weaker Soothsayer?

Find your focus of "Lets see who's called Gwen a strong player" in Post 485 when coming back the first time as well as your question towards me in Post 486 to be really odd areas to spend time on when returning to the thread, particularly the latter given it ignores a lot of why I actually town read you and tries it suggest it's "theory" based when it occurring in the game makes it the opposite.[/quote]
Fair. It's what I expected you to pick up on if you were town.

[You are dead to me]

Why is your read on me weaker Soothsayer?

Find your focus of "Lets see who's called Gwen a strong player" in Post 485 when coming back the first time as well as your question towards me in Post 486 to be really odd areas to spend time on when returning to the thread, particularly the latter given it ignores a lot of why I actually town read you and tries it suggest it's "theory" based when it occurring in the game makes it the opposite.

Fair. It is what I expected you to pick up on if you were town.

[You are dead to me]

I just wish I had the conviction you do, is all. Makes me curious if you're seeing something you haven't shared (you keep alluding to this, I don't think you ever dropped the bomb on it) or if you're just playing it up.

I've explained my read on GreatValue. Your total lack of reaction isn't sitting well with me considering how badly you wanted me to spill the beans.

[You are dead to me]

I just wish I had the conviction you do,

is all

. Makes me curious if you're seeing something you haven't shared (you keep alluding to this, I don't think you ever dropped the bomb on it) or if you're just playing it up.

This post is pretty scummy as well. Look at the phrasing and choice of words. "Is all." He's trying to minimize the extent of his suspicion on me to placate me rather than assertively probe me into giving explanations.

[You are dead to me]

@Deadle: You never told me what you thought about the Dipsy/Aristocrat back and forth.

Unfortunately I've been busy/lazy and only caught up to page 9 and the soothsayer's big reads list is going to take a bit of time to digest. I should be done by tomorrow so I'll get to it then.

[You are dead to me]

I was about to log off but since you are here in real time, let's talk about your read on Spider Gwen who I'm townreading fairly strongly at this point. Do you still have a scumread there or has that changed?

[You are dead to me]

Same as yours actually. But I'm weighing it more heavily. I've started townreading her for the initial Dipsy push but then had second thoughts based on her read of me. I buy the explanation that she feels she's working with a townie though as I've felt similarly in the past where you just know someone's town based on how they're talking to you and seeing the game.

[You are dead to me]

Probably scum. A lot of his posts look like he's taking potshots at people rather than figuring anything out (413). 410 is very surface level because he's clearing two people simply because a scumread called them scum. I can see where you're coming from regarding him trying to lurk out the day, yeah. Opera's ISO is a bit longer. Let me take a look.

[You are dead to me]

Skimmed Phantom. I think they're a hydra and I have a guess as to who one of them could be. If I'm right, I'm leaning scum because of the lack of any insightful commentary. I'm bored with the tediousness of their posts and it looks like they're trying to milk all the content in the thread rather than cut through the bs and focus on what matters.

[You are dead to me]

You keep substituting my actual words for shit you're coming up with.
Your 247 rubs me all kinds of wrong, especially because
A) That's bullshit. Town can be frustrated at that, too.
B) I'm not saying it's unfair or that there's nothing to argue against either. I've called out the points made against me as weak and thin.
C) You're insisting I am scum despite the fact I am not.

Basically, you're wrong, annoyingly convinced you are right, willing to disregard what I post to enable you being wrong, and you're acting like a smug sack of conf-biased shit about it.

I'm frustrated with you. I don't understand why people are townreading you outside of Soothsayer, who is relating to a moment where they scumread me as the same point you were hitting and seeing parallels in that process.

I never said "I am not ready to commit" in terms of holding onto my vote, which is what you are implying and flat-out saying elsewhere. I was never going to lay a vote on you, even though I agreed with Gwen's assessment of your slot. Stop insisting on this.

Huh. Looks like NA's actually town.

[You are dead to me]

@Deadle: The interaction starts at #236. I think it only takes a couple of pages. I'd like some thoughts on it, because it's really bothering me.

P-edit: Quailford is town. Vote Aristocrat.

What's bothering you? I can understand why you are bothered maybe and if two people who I think are good at mafia tunnel each other, I'd be a little worried that one of them could be scum and the other is seeing something I'm not. Neither NA nor Dipsy come across as particularly competent or insightful and I could see both as town since I'm townreading them individually.

Aristocrat is prob-town for the post I quoted and the reaction to Dipsy which looked like righteous indignation. It's a little different from frustration. Both town and scum get frustrated but only town have the sort of indignation. And there's these bits too:

Basically, you're wrong, annoyingly convinced you are right, willing to disregard what I post to enable you being wrong, and you're acting like a smug sack of conf-biased shit about it.

Honestly, Dipsy, your vote on me here is something I expected when I started giving your slot criticism. It's the perfect way to edge in a vote on a growing town wagon as scum.

NA is not a strong townread because his posting still looks slimy to me and the stuff he's saying looks more like he's sucking up to people rather evaluating their alignment but I also think there are town things in his posting.

I'm going to go with town on Dipsy as well. Conf-biased town based on the way he's pushing NA. 253 is a good example. What gave him pause in 254 is the same thing that made me read NA as town. So I can see where he's coming from.

[You are dead to me]

I don't get this though:

For what it's worth, I'm feeling way better about the Dipsy slot now.
I think that our approaches are inevitably going to butt heads, but at least I understand where Dipsy is coming from now.

You do? Where's Dipsy coming from?

[You are dead to me]

What do you think of those two both having little content/not even showing up in your reads there yet still voting me?

I think your loud and brazen play makes you a magnet for votes, for both town and scum.

Loud and brazen isn't how I'd describe his play. His play lacks a certain confidence in his reads. When he asks for people's opinions, it looks like he's trying to find others to validate his reads or to sheep them which makes him come across as both a weak player and scum. On the contrary, asking for people's opinions in a way to get reads on them (like what Soothsayer is doing for instance) comes across as both strong play and town play.

The theory is that weak players and scum don't know how to formulate reads where as strong players and town focus not on whether others will validate them but on what other's opinion of their play says about that other person's alignment.

The key is to figure out how much is alignment indicative and how much is indicative of how strong a player is. And that's something I'm not entirely sure of with Natural Aristocracy. He's a magnet for votes because of weak play. He's most certainly not being voted for "loud and brazen play." But how much of it is playstyle and how much is alignment?

[You are dead to me]

Concorde's lashing out at Shady in 396 is town.

[You are dead to me]

I found myself agreeing with most of Phantom's catchup.

What did you agree with?

I like the last post the most.

What about that post did you like?

--

Reading in context, phantom's posts are atrocious especially the attacks on Dipsy. The Dimitri read is mediocre but is propped up like a beacon of awesomeness. I don't understand why people are ready to sheep Phantom.

[You are dead to me]

I'm just trying to decide if their argument could be distancing or not. So far I've been looking at them separately. I'm just not sure if it makes sense team-wise, though.

Let me hunt up the posts.

Reading their ISO's, I think Dipsy is town and I'm back to scum on Natural Aristocracy.

I don't like Dipsy's first posts but later on, he spends his time looking at the game from a variety of angles and possibilities that I rarely see from scum not to mention some of them are actually good points.

[You are dead to me]

What's bothering you? I can understand why you are bothered maybe and if two people who I think are good at mafia tunnel each other, I'd be a little worried that one of them could be scum and the other is seeing something I'm not. Neither NA nor Dipsy come across as particularly competent or insightful and I could see both as town since I'm townreading them individually.

I'm scumreading them both individually, but I'm not sure if that is a fakeable interaction as scum. Since your reads were close to mine, I was wondering if you saw the possibility of scum theatre or if it was just impossible for them to be scum together.

I wouldn't have ruled it out because Dipsy seemed pretty sure about NA and his confidence level bordered on inside knowledge. But if they were scum together, I'd have expected a little more focus there. On the contrary his interactions with NA looked very much like his interactions with everybody else which points away from scum-scum. That and I have a townread on Dipsy individually.

[You are dead to me]

I think Phantom could be bussing Dimitri. Just making a note that even if Dimitri flips scum, Phantom shouldn't be cleared.

[You are dead to me]

Dead - you're saying all this stuff about NA being town. Then why is your vote still there?

I planned to put it in a better place after I caught up. Then I caught up and feel that he's scum after all.

[You are dead to me]

@Deadle: The interaction starts at #236. I think it only takes a couple of pages. I'd like some thoughts on it, because it's really bothering me.

P-edit: Quailford is town. Vote Aristocrat.

Why is Quailford town? I have him as possible scum but my current scumpool has seven people so I'm working on that.

[You are dead to me]

@Gwen: If I have to justify a scumread, then it's not worth it. It should be clear from the 26 pages we have so far. If I had any large new breakthrough case there, I'd throw it down.

@YouAreDeadtoMe: Show me where you explain the read in full.
Also, come up with more fiction to support your silly read on me, please.

560.
I think the non-fiction I've posted is sufficient. I'll post more when I feel like it.

[You are dead to me]

Glad you finally caught up, Dead. Can you color in the last vc with your reads?

I'm not going to color VCs but I'll make it interesting for you. If you can persuade Shady or soothsayer to do it, I'll go in with either of them. It seems like the sort of thing they would enjoy. We want 100% of your company (you'll be a paid employee that we can fire anytime) for the price of filling in the votecount.

[You are dead to me]

I can go with CellPhone.

unvote, vote cellphone

My scumpool is NA, cellphone, phantom, greatvalue, xxcumquat, megafan, and quail. Everyone else is town.

[You are dead to me]

Really want to see the rest of her catch up to solidify this read.

His thoughts on certain posts line up with what I was thinking when I saw them. I'm just seeing natural town development there. I don't think his stance on Gumby is as bad as you're trying to imply.

This is all you said about Quail. I just read his entire ISO and I don't see a thing that's town. The early posts, I don't know if it is trolling or serious. If serious, those reads are terrible. Then there's the Gumby suspicion and some scattered comments after that. I don't see town.

[You are dead to me]

I feel abandoned.

You wanted to be in my scumpool?

[You are dead to me]

Well I do, because I can see exactly where he's coming from.

Mind pointing me to specific posts I should be looking at?

[You are dead to me]

Megafan's probably scum. That vote on Dimitri fits with scum late wagon hop when the only thing he said about Dimitry before was a dislike of Dimitry's quail vote.

[You are dead to me]

Out of people that are actually contributing, Phantom is the scummiest. I could see a scenario where I'm wrong on NA but it is harder to see with Phantom. That Dimitri read (regardless of Dimitri's actual alignment) is empty aggression. There's a humongous pile of fluffy words that don't have a point and looks like commenting just for the sake of commenting and makes their/his posts a pain to read. I get the feeling that he's trying (and failing) to portray a lighthearted, upbeat demeanor with lots of exclamation marks and snappy banter but there's not much that matters beneath it. Phantom's case is that Dimitri hasn't developed his reads which is not a great reason and certainly not reason enough to push with this much aggression. I get the odd feeling that he's bussing but can't figure out the motivation for bussing on D1.

[You are dead to me]

Which posts of NA's are you reading as town?

[You are dead to me]

I'm going to need a lot more content from you, Greatvalue. Reads on people other than the two leading wagons for a start.

[You are dead to me]

How much of the game have you read?

You can expand on your reads D2 if you want but I want to see where you are at off the top of your head. It is most certainly useful considering I have a pool of seven suspects right now with you being one of them. I had an early scumread on you but you've disappeared since then and I don't have anything else to go by. I don't think you getting killed tonight is a possibility worth considering.

Who's blade?

[You are dead to me]

I mean, he's not getting lynched today regardless of alignment but I was hoping if he was town, he'd post something that makes him readable and narrow down my pool.

[You are dead to me]

You said you had reads. What are they?

[You are dead to me]

unvote

Feeling a little uncomfortable here. I'm still here. I'll revote if needed.

[You are dead to me]

Here's the actual votecount edited with updates:

• Votecount 1.16
  
  
  xXSexyKumquatXx (7)— The Phantom of the Opera, Natural Aristocracy, Concorde, Gumby, Quailford LOL, Spider Gwen, CellPhone
  CellPhone (6)— the_soothsayer, Shady, Megafan1998, xXSexyKumquatXx, Greatvalue, Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy
  Quailford LOL (1)— Shiba Tatsuya
  
  
  Not Voting
  (1)— You are dead to me
  
  It takes 8 to lynch or no lynch.
  
  
  Deadline
  
  
  >> Deadline hits in (expired on 2015-10-24 08:08:29). <<
  

[You are dead to me]

Agree on Shiba and Gumby. Why is my unvote concerning? I've accused you of being scum with Dimitri pretty early on so when you come in not having read anything or without any reads and keep insisting that Concorde hammer CellPhone who's a counterwagon to the Dimitri replacement, that does make me consider CellPhone being town and you two being scum.

[You are dead to me]

Haven't decided who I want to vote yet. Considering hammering Kumquat but I want to re-read his ISO.

[You are dead to me]

Going to go with this. This will be good for info as well. In other words, if he's town, that makes Phantom of the Opera even more likely to be scum.

vote: xxKumquat

[You are dead to me]

I agree.

[You are dead to me]

Wasn't a fan of his push. I'd say scum probably aren't bussing D1 in this game especially if there are only three scum like the previous secret alt game which had 15 players, 3 scum.

[You are dead to me]

I'm most grossed out by GV/Dimitri connection.

[You are dead to me]

I dunno. GV's recent posts were scummy as fuck and I wasn't comfortable letting the lynch he wanted go through.

[You are dead to me]

On hindsight, I should have stuck with Cellphone. I think scum in GV's place would be more likely to bus because both Cellphone and Kumquat will likely end up dead so holding out hope that I'd switch is a legitimate strategy. The "concern" with my unvote could have been knowledge that Cellphone is scum. Meh.

GV. Phantom. Cellphone. Kill all these people.

[You are dead to me]

You are not telling me you have a townread on Dimitri/Kumquat?

Like the majority of the playerlist has been obsessed with that slot since this game began. Cellphone will die anyways. This way gives us a lot more info. Don't stop playing the game. I liked reading your analysis.

[You are dead to me]

Lynching for information progresses the game much better early on. Nobody has perfect reads but if you lynch someone everyone wants to lynch, it forces them to develop new reads and re-approach the game and over the long term roots out scum.

CellPhone wasn't even my first choice. Phantom was. So, maybe I'm not seeing exactly what you are.

[You are dead to me]

Phantom pushed Dimitri wagon very hard when he could have pushed elsewhere. So, if Dimitri's scum, that makes Phantom a whole lot less likely to be scum.

GV's push could be bussing now that I think of it because Dimitri and Cellphone are both going to wind up dead soon. I was uncomfortable with GV pushing Cellphone (who was a counterwagon to Dimitri) when I suspected GV and Dimitri being scum together. I said this earlier in my case and I thought you agreed that it wasn't a natural town thought process. So, when GV started pushing the CW, that set off alarms.

[You are dead to me]

Your strongest scum read is Opera, he is voting Quat

Quat's flip will help me solidify a read on Opera. That's an example of what I mean by information lynch.

It's also a huge "fuck you" given there's 5 hours till deadline and Quat was intending on coming back to post as were others (like myself) and really doesn't make me want to bother with you or this game again.

My huge issue is less with Quat being lynched but how, who and why he was lynched, really not what I expected from you.

As far I knew, you didn't have a computer and I wasn't expecting further posts from you. I'm the US and the five hours are all in the dead of the night. I felt like I had to make a decision right then and I snap-decided on Quat because for one, it would settle the Phantom issue. I'd love to see what Phantom will post now that the Russian is dead. For a second reason, it would also remove a major distraction for the town. For a third, it would let me test my GV/Dimitri theory.

You didn't have an issue with my case when I tied GV and Dimitri together. You even claimed it made me town and scumread GV and Dimitri at least partly because of it (and I didn't see what was so town about GV to not give any reads and push Cellphone). So, to come now and claim that you thought I was seeing the same thing as you and get mad I voted Kumquat shows that you haven't really understood where I was at or what I was thinking re: my reads. I wasn't trying to give a fuck you to anyone and it is unfortunate that you see it that way.

[You are dead to me]

I get that people bus. But in this setup with 15 players and only 3 scum (using the last alt game as reference), bussing in the way Opera pushed Dimitri doesn't make any sense. In a different game, sure. But here, it gives us that information. It wasn't obvious that someone would be there to hammer. Concorde and I were the only ones posting and I wasn't willing to risk a no lynch. Concorde was counting on me to make a decision soon. My decision was made based on three reasons all of which I listed in the post above. It wasn't solely because GV was pushing Concorde (although that was a trigger) and in different circumstances like Dimitri not being a near universal scumread and the hope of refining my Opera read, I may have stuck with Cellphone.

Mind walking me through your GV townread? I could see the voting, unvoting, and revoting as town trying to make a decision but scum could do it too and the lack of anything else at all for the whole game is really concerning. The "concern" with my unvote of cellphone is similarly concerning and it looks like GV knew he couldn't make a solid push on me because I didn't come across as an easy target but wanted to take potshots from the sidelines. The "Yadtm is pushing the game forward therefore town, but the unvote is concerning, but it shouldn't really be since we don't know Cellphone's alignment anyways" is absurdly non-committal.

[You are dead to me]

I think in a game where the scum ratio is smaller than normal, scum wouldn't bus D1 because not only does it make the ratio even smaller, they also have to explain why they're still alive late game after leading that scum lynch long ago on D1 and with just two members, they'd be putting all of their eggs in a rather small basket.

I don't know who would have shown up and who wouldn't have. No lynch would have been a horrible outcome. Dimitri wasn't even close to being a townread.

I realize you hated my unvote but the issue I have with GV is his non-committal stance on me. You have a stance despite hating my vote.

I dunno. Maybe I made a mistake voting Dimitri at the last minute. If I did, I'll figure it out as the game goes on.

[You are dead to me]

Hello. Mind explaining why my unvote was "concerning?"

[You are dead to me]

Maybe if you read my posts, you'll see where I'm getting the smaller scum ratio as I've explained twice now.

What plan? What do I "absolutely have to do?" Why would I bus Dimitri just to tie him to you rather than take the Cellphone mislynch that was offered and bus him tomorrow?

What about my unvote was "concerning" to you?

[You are dead to me]

Soothsayer, I think I explained myself as much as I could so I'm not going to re-explain it when it's not like you need me to explain so you can read me. If I made a mistake, I'll figure it out.

I really don't like GV's 858 where he claims I'm scum trying to explain it away as it is just really dumb logic and the convenient timing after I pointed out that he's sideline sniping is even worse.

[You are dead to me]

Final townreads of this day are Shiba, Gumby, Yadtm, and weakly Sooth and Shady.

Scumread Cellphone remains alive.

How the hell am I a stronger townread than Sooth?

[You are dead to me]

Yeah, not going to explain again.

But Cell and Opera is who I'd lynch next as well so that works.

[You are dead to me]

vote: Cellphone

Should have happened fucking yesterday until ~someone~ decided it was a very smart play to not post for nearly ten days and show his valuable butt a few hours before deadline and pushed for a Cellphone lynch in a scummy as fuck manner.

Can't push GV until D4 though because I'm not voting anyone else until Cellphone and Phantom are both dead, and it still could be NA or Megafan with them.

[You are dead to me]

Soothsayer, explain the town thought process here:

Allows him to connect it to me further, and on a more flimsy note his constant reference to the slot as if it's still Dimitri falls more in line with a scumpartner mindset.

How is referring to the slot as Dmitri scummy?

I think it's merely you trying to explain a colossal fuck up as town

Yeah... I find myself continuing to revert to this thought. It's really depressing but it makes the most sense in my experience with people who play town like this.

I'm quite glad then that I don't play town by posting a couple of times in the beginning and showing up again at deadline with no reads, nothing and get depressed by people actually playing the game.

[You are dead to me]

Soothsayer, explain the town thought process here:

Allows him to connect it to me further, and on a more flimsy note his constant reference to the slot as if it's still Dimitri falls more in line with a scumpartner mindset.

How is referring to the slot as Dmitri scummy?

To explain what I'm talking about, this was posted after the hammer and I think it exists solely to display GreatValue's "townslipping" by not knowing that Dmitri was town where he is shown to be creating paranoid theories about Dmitri's partners.

If GV is scum, his plan all along was to bait me into voting Dmitri and he'd have almost gotten away with it if I hadn't realized it now. Baiting someone else into voting by pushing the opposing lynch works well because GV can be pushing the "right" lynch while someone else takes the fallback for voting Dmitri.

[You are dead to me]

YESSSS! Scum caught. When I click on a post, it says I'm not authorized to read the topic. Links back to the scum PT no doubt.

[You are dead to me]

For those still in the dark:

Code: Select all

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7333960#p7333960]post 885 [/url], Joey Tribbiani"]
[post=#7293524]73[/post]

I find the last part of this post (the part pertaining to the scumread of Shiba) to be town. Noticing that discrepancy between the ruleset and the perceived notion of being newbtown leads to more of the in-depth thought that comes with the town alignment.

That being said, it looks like he was preparing to vote yadtm with the last line and then his vote on Shiba seems unexplained, and being left to implication bothers me.

 [post=#7293524]84[/post]

Why did you instantly jump to discredit the read? I got a townread based solely off of that post, does that mean that  read is invalid?

[post=#7293524]108[/post]

This claim takes a lot of cojones to come from scum. My primary question why they didn't out it in their first post, however upon reevaluation I could make out the thought process of attempting to draw a nightkill by being one of the more evidently town players, and to have been initially responded to with a scumread shook that gameplan.

[post=#7293524]144[/post]
[/quote]

When you type:

Code: Select all

[post]74[/post]

for instance and click preview, the code changes it to something like this:

Code: Select all

[post=#7293524]74[/post]

so the actual post refers to the seventy fourth post in that thread which is given a unique post number across the board. So, he typed it all up in the scum PT and clicked preview thus changing all the post numbers to refer to ones in that Private Topic. When he quoted it again and copy-pasted it here, the unique post tags still referred to the scum PT posts.

[You are dead to me]

Eh, wish I hadn't done that. Would have been nice to make him catch up to all 36 pages but whatever.

[You are dead to me]

Quail is town. Could definitely find himself voting Quail isn't partner to partner interaction.

[You are dead to me]

Scum wouldn't show hesitancy in voting a partner. It looked like he wanted an excuse to vote Quail but is a little scared to push him hard and wants someone else leading that push. I dunno, I could see it as a potential out to bus later but it looks a lot more like careful treading the water around a townie.

[You are dead to me]

1. Cellphone (Joey Tribbiani)
2. Phantom of the Opera
3. One of Megafan, Natural Aristocracy, or Great Value

Game solved.

Unless we have another scum.

[You are dead to me]

You and Megafan both need to play the game and actually have reads on people other than obvious scum. Quail isn't scum for the reasons I listed and the post you quoted also doesn't make sense as partner to partner. I'm assuming you are reading Phantom as town considering you don't mention him at all. Why?

[You are dead to me]

Hi Wake!

[You are dead to me]

You must have a huge ego to think you can actually policy-lynch me but thanks for the laugh.

[You are dead to me]

If anyone's worthy of being policy-lynched, it is you. You did shit-all for all of D1, showed up 10 hours before deadline and starting arguing for a lynch with no reads, no thoughts, nothing. You can't even be fucked to read the game and you had the nerve to give me attitude for switching to Dmitri. You don't get to do that when you don't play the game. I was patient in explaining my thought process to soothsayer, and if you bother to read the thread and invest your time and energy into it, I'd probably be patient and courteous to you as well.

[You are dead to me]

Why is Quailford not scum? I think there's a fairly good chance of it right now, and something like "he wasn't bussing" doesn't really work for me.

He was null to me until I saw that Joey post. Using interactive tells to catch scum works for me and the way he talked about Quail looked a lot like he was trying to justify wagoning Quail at some point in a way that doesn't draw attention to him. I do think it was a fairly weak tell because it was a single post and I don't have Quail as solidly town. I'd put him in the bottom of my townpile.

Why is he scum though? You quoted a post. Talk about this more.

[You are dead to me]

You are not my top suspect or even my second suspect. I think it is unreasonable to sign up for a game and not participate claiming that you have better things to do while also bringing the attitude you did towards the end on D1. Joey's posts don't clear you. When I first read them, they looked informed like he knew you were scum. But that may have just been conf-bias on my part so I'm going set that aside and re-read with a clear head later. You haven't done anything of significance. While you are here, mind ISOing Phantom and giving your read on him? If you are town, read the thread and form reads.

The same goes for Megafan. I'm not even considering lynching either of you before D4.

[You are dead to me]

Joey is at L-2. No one vote yet. Don't want derp-hammers and I'd rather wait a couple of days to hear from Phantom and people who haven't posted as well Soothsayer's updated thoughts.

[You are dead to me]

I think Joey was earnest in his suspicion of Shiba and since he wrote this overnight, he had no idea who'd be vigged. If Shiba was the scum kill, I think Joey wouldn't have come across so earnest when suspecting him.

[You are dead to me]

Quail is town. I'll try and explain in a little while if anyone still wants me to.

[You are dead to me]

So the Joey post.

Gumby is town. Gwen is town because he's trying to align himself with Gwen defending Gwen from Dipsy. Strengthens my Concorde townread too.

NA read looks like weak partner defense.

Actually, I think it is just Joey, Opera, and NA.

[You are dead to me]

The attempt to start a quail wagon also felt good, because I find myself questioning the lack of one. As of 299, I would definitely find myself voting quail.

Here, he's subtly encouraging NA or others to look at Quail questioning why there isn't a wagon. This shows that he actually wants a wagon because his behavior makes it more likely that a Quail wagon will start.

If Quail was his partner and he wanted to distance, I think he'd just pointed out some Quail posts, called them scummy and argued with Quail, not this behind-the-scenes encouragement that he's giving. This makes me wonder about the NA read I gave in my earlier post too because he's trying to induce a behavior in NA. I could see the third scum being Megafan.

[You are dead to me]

You're talking about this section at the end, right?:

Something to note, I have a townread on Shiba as of page 12, but cannot ascertain the exact reasonings behind it. One thing that is jumping out at me is the way he was townreading all the major wagons- the odds that we had yet to wagon a scum at this point is pretty negligible. The attempt to start a quail wagon also felt good, because I find myself questioning the lack of one. As of 299, I would definitely find myself voting quail.

My readup is done as of post 14, I will likely continue reading coming into tomorrow. I definitely want to investigate the wagons that are evident at the end of the day, however, because I know I am town and kumquat flipped town means there is something very wrong going on here. I haven't gotten to any kumquat posts yet so I don't really know where the wagon is coming from, though.

This is in many cases more of a player-sensitive issue, which definitely doesn't help the read in an alt game, but I also find it odd how he immediately goes from "I would vote Quail" to just saying he's done with catching up for now and not placing any vote. As I said it might just be a player preference but it's only the start of day 2, and I don't think it's unreasonable to think that not voting Quail in spite of his pledge to the case and wagon that Shiba made could be a minor scumpartner tell.

As for talking about Quail a lot, he responds to or mentions Quail only once outside of that quote, while he responds to or mentions me in a negative way 4 times. Take that as you will, but from my perspective it really just looks like he's trying to set me up as a lynch (with pre-existing support in your read on me), while he "balances out" in a sense by not forgetting to include an actual scumpartner in his scumreads. Your token soft bus, as it were.

Bringing up another point from the Joey wall next, but want to post this in case the mod locks first.

The lack of vote doesn't tell me much. I suspect that he planned to vote after he finished catching up.

Even if I assume that his read on you is him trying to ride on my coattails to get a mislynch, he could still have a townie as a second suspect in case your lynch doesn't pan out which he probably knows it wouldn't considering I said I wasn't going to vote you before Phantom. That lets him "compromise" on the Quail lynch whose wagon he was encouraging.

[You are dead to me]

Don't you dare try to shift blame here, it's entirely on you, not GV.

I already get that you have a hard on for GV. You don't need to repeat it each time. I didn't lynch Dmitri by myself. There was a whole wagon of people on him. Sucks for you that you were relying on me. Get over yourself.

[You are dead to me]

That we lynched town over scum D1 is on the entire wagon and on GV. If GV hadn't acted scummy as shit, we may have lynched Cell.

[You are dead to me]

lol

[You are dead to me]

That we lynched town over scum D1 is on the entire wagon and on GV. If GV hadn't acted scummy as shit, we may have lynched Cell.

i hope to god no one actually believes this "oh he made me lynch town boo hoo!!!"

Explained already but the composition of wagons and who's pushing what does factor into my final decision as well the info I think I can gain from the wagon.

[You are dead to me]

I'm not going to keep arguing this point in circles. You're town and I'm town so this is futile.

Shady's last post is actually worrisome.

[You are dead to me]

I'm talking about 943. It doesn't matter if Shady disagrees. My alignment isn't in question for precisely the reason sooth explained.

[You are dead to me]

and it is not who GV voted, it is how he did it and the context in which he did it (after not having contributed anything of great value all of D1).

[You are dead to me]

I've already pointed out possible associative tells between Joey and NA. Keep up GreatValue.

[You are dead to me]

Sometimes it's hard for me to take you seriously.

Likewise. You need a serious attitude adjustment before you can be good at this game.

[You are dead to me]

That Shady read sucks. Are you actually claiming that someone having a caught scum as null is an amazing revelation? AND that it makes Shady town for pointing it out?

[You are dead to me]

Like I have a good reason to think GV is town but everything comes across as shallow and manipulative and I get weird pings from his posts. I'm chalking it up to playstyle at this point.

[You are dead to me]

This is probably the most concrete lead we have (besides Quail, potentially) so thanks for pointing it out. Seriously it's a really good find, constantly reliable associative tell.

Shady is more firmly in my town pile.

----------

Yadtm after this game please consider reevaluating the patterns of behavior that you associate with town and scum.

I really hope this post is sarcasm or some weird "making a point" post because I can't see how town would think that NA's nullread is "most concrete lead" we have and that it is a "constantly reliable associative tell." Wtf?

[You are dead to me]

The weirdness of his tone and phrasing could just be him trying to conceal his alt overly hard though. ISOing him, I realized he's more interested than most to keep his alt hidden which explains the fake-sounding posts.

[You are dead to me]

Great Value.

[You are dead to me]

Shady could be scum just for that post suggesting a policy lynch as well as suspecting me for accusing GV. It looks like he's going along with popular positions (sooth trying to pin the loss on me) and using it.

[You are dead to me]

That's a hammer. Vig Phantom please.

[You are dead to me]

I would not yell and complain if any of Shady, GreatValue, NA, or Megafan are killed but phantom needs a gunshot to the chest really, really badly.

[You are dead to me]

sorry i don't believe in artificially extending the day

lmao

[You are dead to me]

Actually I take that back. If there's a town vig that targets anyone other than Phantom, they should be ashamed.

[You are dead to me]

Phone posting but can't stress how bad that hammer is enough, there's still players yet to post today that may have had information to share. Please Lynch Phantom tomorrow, would go NA afterwards then Mega and Quail.

Never Lynch Gumby, Dead, Shady or Concorde. I still think Dipsy and Gwen are probably town but worth a relook at.

Sooth?

What's your read on GV? I don't care about how much you like his end of the pissing contest with me. I'm only interested in an alignment read, the strength of that read, and reasons.

[You are dead to me]

Not so convinced Shady is town. Quailford is town. Otherwise soothsayer's (Regfan's) list looks good.

[You are dead to me]

Would have said the same thing D1. Honestly, at this point don't care either way whether he's replaced or not. Hopefully not though because I'm pretty sure that slot is town and sooth seemed okay as a player for the most part.

[You are dead to me]

Wish one of the two people I see as detriments to the town slipped though. Sooth was far from the most annoying player in the game.

[You are dead to me]

I agree. It'll get rid of his annoying whining about the D1 lynch but he put effort into the game, I'll give him that. Whoever replaces him probably will be worse and will most probably have shittier reads.

Actually the mod said in the OP that he MAY replace people that alt-slip so it isn't guaranteed that we're losing Sooth.

[You are dead to me]

I fail to see how his whining benefited the town. But I suggest waiting to see if he's still in the game before committing to sucking up.

[You are dead to me]

You too.

Why is everyone assuming Sooth is gone for good? The mod clearly stated that it wasn't a guarantee.

[You are dead to me]

I do with it was GreatValue or Shady though. Town is going to win if these two are gone regardless of alignment.