BIOCHEMISTRY - game over, finally, it's only been 5 months

[Spiffeh]

VOTE: Ser Arthur Dayne

[Spiffeh]

VOTE: Marquis

Sakura is town

[Spiffeh]

Marquis you made the worst post in the game so far

[Spiffeh]

Nevermind Marquis is town

VOTE: beeboy

[Spiffeh]

Marquis is probably town but that's not why

You don't think Marquis is capable of pulling that "slip" as scum?

PEdit: @Firebringer

[Spiffeh]

I didn't like the switch between townreading Marq and scumreading him

Marquis' first post gave me gut scum vibes. He then proceeded to directly address my naked vote on him and explain what he would do as scum in that situation, two things I don't see him doing as scum.

And his subsequent posts make me even more confident. So now I'm town reading him.

Early game read changes occur often for me.

[Spiffeh]

Marquis you made the worst post in the game so far

This posts reeks fake holy.

Seems like he's trying to imitate his town game but it lacks any emotion.

Lol this is garbage

You can point to literally any post in the game and attach this reasoning to it. What "emotion" do you expect me to have?

[Spiffeh]

Yeah that too, "I have Marquis townread now for ~secrets~".

I can buy Vifam believing that a sudden read shift would be grounds for suspicion but you're better than that

The expectation that early reads are going to be static is fucking ridiculous and you should know that

[Spiffeh]

I have early town reads on Sakura Hana, Rem and Ram, Marquis, BigYoshiFan, and kinda on Rick and Andrea

These are subject to change

Because it's early

And that's ok

VOTE: SAD

[Spiffeh]

I immediately regret my inclusion of Rick and Andrea in my town list because their most recent post is very bad

[Spiffeh]

I immediately regret my inclusion of Rick and Andrea in my town list because their most recent post is very bad

By this I mean 130

[Spiffeh]

Why are you town reading Rem and Ram?

~Rick (Fire), Leader

Gut

[Spiffeh]

Firebringer how do you feel about SAD?

[Spiffeh]

Earlier someone asked why I was voting beeboy

He is mostly a gut scumlean atm. The playfulness in his response to Sakura seemed overblown.

[Spiffeh]

Nothing alignment-wise, but I liked his vote on you.

~Rick (Fire), Leader

What did you like about it?

[Spiffeh]

It was mostly cuz you pointed out how Marq had the worst post then you go on to townread after, I thought that you'd still be vigilant on him even if he started looking town if you really felt the post was that bad. I see your point tho

At the time I did think he had the worst post in the thread

He then made posts that immediately made up for it

[Spiffeh]

43

[Spiffeh]

His responding to Sakura's question that seemed like busy work.

[Spiffeh]

Lol this is garbage

its actually a post.
not garbage.

i got you some glasses because i think you need them:

If you color the glasses black I might make that my new avatar for a bit

[Spiffeh]

Hey SAD

Marquis you made the worst post in the game so far

This posts reeks fake holy.

Seems like he's trying to imitate his town game but it lacks any emotion.

Lol this is garbage

You can point to literally any post in the game and attach this reasoning to it.

What "emotion" do you expect me to have?

[Spiffeh]

VOTE: beeboy
See ya guys D2.

Zomg!

*hugs*

~ObvTitus

This is weak but I think this is way more likely to come from the cutesy, troll scum!Titus than it is to come from any town iteration of Titus I've ever seen.

[Spiffeh]

it really isnt.

Why not?

[Spiffeh]

I feel no type of way about it

It looks weird on the surface but from my experience scum!Firebringer trolls and acts like he doesn't care early on and I've only seen town!Firebringer get down to business right away.

So while I disagree with his assessment I think he's more likely to do what he's doing as town

He has had some other questionable posts that are worthy of suspicion but I don't think the push on you is one of them

[Spiffeh]

I'm not scum reading SAD because of his tone or for his opinions being disagreeable?

He basically plucked a post of mine and gave the most surface level reasoning for scum reading it. I wouldn't have a problem if he found my posts "fake" or w/e but the fact that he tries to overjustify it with bullshit reasoning makes him scummy

[Spiffeh]

Nope

I've mislynched Firebringer for nonsense pushes in the past (very recently actually)

Yeah I guess he could be compensating for his meta but he's not at the top of my radar atm sorry

[Spiffeh]

And I can even kinda see where he's coming from?

You're generally an easy player to read and valuable when town. I can see town!Firebringer recognizing this and pressuring you early to confirm you're town and be able to work with you from there

I don't agree that pressuring you early makes it easier to get a read on you, but I can see why he would do it as town.

But you can do whatever, it's early and if Firebringer continues making shitty posts then I'll pay more attention to him

[Spiffeh]

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=68775

The Thing Mafia

Day 5 he scum reads me out of nowhere and pushes me for bullshit reasons

I find it weird that he scum reads me suddenly despite being obvtown all game. I lynch him the next Day. He flips town.

Obviously not the same situation but this is why I don't find weird pushes from FB out of the ordinary

[Spiffeh]

SAD if you're looking for me to get off you then ignoring me is the worst way to make that happen

[Spiffeh]

I will be interpreting this non-response as a scum claim until further notice

There's literally no reason for you to ignore my problems with you

Especially since I agree with you on Titus and if you were town we could have a nice little thing going if you try to address my concerns?

[Spiffeh]

You're annoying

[Spiffeh]

VOTE: Voices of Truth

[Spiffeh]

VOTE: SAD

Going back here

[Spiffeh]

That post was fine. If Titus is town it will become apparent. SAD's ignoring me is something I'm deciding not to let go and I still think his early scum read on me is worse than anything Titus has done.

[Spiffeh]

also, spiff, seems more like firebringer was annoyed at you that game than scumreading you. and when he did start saying you might be scum, it at least came across as reasonable from a framework of OMGUSness. where this push on me just feels a lot more like him trying to fake paranoia of me.
i humbly disagree with your comparison between this game and that game.
if there are examples that illustrate the point better i'll lurk them.

Whatever

He's more of a null read currently so I don't feel the need to continue defending him

[Spiffeh]

The Rem Ram wagon makes no sense to me

Someone should elaborate

[Spiffeh]

Cool to hear other neighborhoods are being used.

What's this even supposed to mean?

You have made exactly one post in it

[Spiffeh]

Speculation about the amount of scum in each neighborhood is completely useless

[Spiffeh]

Oh ok

Hey SAD can you hit me in the face with why R&R is scum?

[Spiffeh]

Yeah Rem Ram posting on page 13 felt super icky. I actually kinda liked their posting before that, but the double-team thing on page 13 felt forced.

I'm glad you're bussing early Voices.

???

[Spiffeh]

Why are you avoiding interacting with me at like every turn?

I'm asking because your explanation in 331 doesn't do it for me. What on page 13 felt icky/forced and why?

All of your "pushes" are surface level bullshit and the fact that you refuse to engage with me doesn't make me feel any better.

[Spiffeh]

Yeah it was so I look busy

Not because I'm scum reading you and want you to elaborate on your opinions so I can see if I'm actually on to something

[Spiffeh]

Does this help the Rem and Ram scum case at all, or no?

Yeah

I'm getting noob town vibes from the thread which is why I wanted SAD to elaborate on his read there. But I understand if the neighborhood is a different story.

What was unsatisfactory about their responses in the neighborhood?

[Spiffeh]

All of your "pushes" are surface level bullshit

Sadly this is why I barely give explanations anymore most people are logical or tonal or meta reads.

I get epiphanies so it's hard to put into words and when I do people are never satisfied with the reason and always want ~more~.

It's fine to not really know how to explain why you're scum reading someone if it's just a gut thing

The issue I have with you is that you've twice now tried to justify scum reads with buzzwordy phrases that don't really seem to hold up to me, and when I question you about it you completely ignore my concerns.

I don't recall you behaving this uncooperatively in DEFCON

[Spiffeh]

Sakura don't make me regret town reading you so early

[Spiffeh]

Sakura what do you think of SAD?

[Spiffeh]

Feeling tempted to go back to SAD, but Rem and Ram aren't helping themselves.

They literally haven't posted since the wagon on them formed so I don't know how you can say they're not helping themselves?

[Spiffeh]

Uh yeah I interpreted that as if he thought they posted since their pressure

Because that's a weird thing to say about them otherwise

But ok

[Spiffeh]

@Sakura I thought your interaction with Firebringer seemed like your town self

I also sensed that your initial beeboy vote could have been for ~neighborhood reasons~ which I might have made up

Was that the case?

[Spiffeh]

Do you have any scum reads atm?

[Spiffeh]

It is perfectly plausible for two scum to be in the same neighborhood

[Spiffeh]

beeboy why are you scum reading Rem and Ram?

[Spiffeh]

I have read their posts lately

I don't see anything not within my expectations of noob-town play

[Spiffeh]

I have read their posts lately

I don't see anything not within my expectations of noob-town play

You know noobs can roll scum too, right?

Of course you know that

Yeah I'm aware

This doesn't change how I feel

You're more than welcome to elaborate on why you think they're scum here

[Spiffeh]

Whatever.
I think scum are on my wagon so...
-Rem (Ali)

Who are the scum on your wagon?

[Spiffeh]

You just asserted it with no argument to back it up.

Hey this sounds like all of your posts so far!

It's just a gut thing I get from their posts, nothing I can point to specifically. Which is why I've been asking for reasons they're being scum read.

The only person to answer me with a reason that wasn't terrible was BYF, who said it was based mostly on neighborhood things that I can't verify myself and don't feel comfortable sheeping

So here we are

[Spiffeh]

Majiffy I have ISO'd you and remain unconvinced

What do you think of SAD?

[Spiffeh]

SAD's read on me continues to be bullshit

What am I supposed to have "followed up" on?

The reasons I asked those questions should be abundantly clear, but you ignore that and do anything to paint me in a scummy light

SAD town reads are no longer acceptable

[Spiffeh]

I could probably point to several other questions people asked that weren't "followed up" on

But you single mine out because you need to discredit me before my true tunnel is UNLEASHED

You aren't town

[Spiffeh]

Ok great now all of you vote for SAD

[Spiffeh]

SAD maybe you should check literally every town game I've ever played if you think any of those things come exclusively from my scum game

You're devoting a lot of time to justifying your scum read on me, why aren't you voting me?

[Spiffeh]

Sakura is no longer a town read of mine

Her recent posts are disgusting

[Spiffeh]

Maybe my neighborhood consists of the scum team and myself

That would be fun

[Spiffeh]

Titus can you explain your RR scum read/point to me where you did

I have faith that you will actually follow through on this request unlike everyone else I've asked

[Spiffeh]

Oh it will most certainly inflate my ego sorry to disappoint you

But thanks!

[Spiffeh]

I was thinking something more along these lines:

[Spiffeh]

<------------

Vote SAD

[Spiffeh]

In other news guess who doesn't deserve all the town reads he's getting?'

Gorkington

[Spiffeh]

How can you believe much less be certain that Creature has reads at all with the Reasonably Rational vote?

Why are you acting like this is a big deal

It was obviously a joke

[Spiffeh]

<------------

Vote SAD

Hey, I had gut from the early posting but nothing I could hang my hat on.

Then, they began posting off in the hood when I suggested wagoning SAD. They said essentially "don't bother, they'll get townread". Yet, they didn't appear to be SRing SAD.

We pressured more on that by asking who we should shoot if we had a Desperado. They said someone in the hood, so Vifam. (Around 4 pm yesterday) They never justified this. They had issues with BYF too, so a PoE to

In 416 through their next chain in public, they complain about being run up for playful and deflect hard core. They pushed one scum in the hood since the start (and I let my hydra partner run with that), and have been attacking the hood almost exclusively.

This is why neighborhoods suck

It seems like hood reasons are primarily why R&R is being wagoned and I'm not going to put my faith into something I can't evaluate myself

I don't think attacking your hood exclusively is all that scummy. I don't think it'd be out of the ordinary for a town!newer player to get frustrated and lash out against the people that are scum reading them if they think they're being pushed for bad reasons.

R&R calling out that there are scum on their wagon seemed town to me, especially since I generally default to that same reasoning if I believe the pushes on me are unwarranted.

[Spiffeh]

Hi Sakura.

You want to dance?

~Titus

@Spiffeh, You know my history with "jokes".

I have no idea what you're talking about

[Spiffeh]

Gorkington

SAD has claimed to not be moving off of Titus today

All the while he's been finding everything under the sun about ME that he can paint as scummy and hasn't justified the Titus scum read at all

Does this not bother you

Along with everything else I've pointed out about him?

[Spiffeh]

There's several things missing from SAD DEFCON than SAD here, but that doesn't make him scum.
I am more concerned that he seems bent on more posturing than pushing, but posturing is a go to for him regardless of alignment I think.

-Rick

This is a good post

[Spiffeh]

Yeah Spiffeh, I am not lynching SAD today unless Maria strongarms me.
Still want Creature.

-Rick (Fire)

I was in complete agreement with you like 10 posts ago and then you pull this 180 out of nowhere

What changed?

[Spiffeh]

beeboy is a good candidate for scum

PEdit: @Gorkington do you have any scum reads currently?

[Spiffeh]

Lol what.

Yeah I completely missed a page when reading up so I take that back

You're still probably scum though

[Spiffeh]

@Spiffeh – read 714 and tell me that isn’t Town Gork …

I've never seen his scum game and I don't think that's anything that would be out of the realm of possibility for him to fake as scum.

I think people are writing him off as town way too early. There's a noticeable lack of presence here that I haven't experienced in any other town games of his. He voted for Creature awhile ago and I still don't know why. I don't really recall him ever making a vote that wasn't backed up by some line of thinking.

I don't think this is a smoking gun or that this is necessarily reason to scum read him. If he's town I'm sure it will become extremely obvious at some point when he gets his head in the game.

He's just not obvtown levels of town that some people are making him out to be.

[Spiffeh]

beeboy is a good candidate for scum

So Spiffeh ... what do you think of Vecna / Majiffy / Sakura as of now?

Majiffy's a town lean, the other two are null

Vecna's actually null, I'm probably gonna read his ISO when I'm done catching up and see if I can form an opinion.

Sakura I keep going back and forth on

[Spiffeh]

beeboy is a good candidate for scum

PEdit: @Gorkington do you have any scum reads currently?

Cause my posts are too cutesy or w/e you said?

Nah

You're parked on Titus and don't seem to be doing anything beyond that? You engaged with Sakura for three posts about a game that you admitted yourself you didn't even read which makes me think you want to look productive.

Titus has posted a decent amount since you called her "obv scum". What do you think of her recent contributions?

[Spiffeh]

speaking of wagons now that Titus asked some meaningless questions and did a fake desperado shot can we vote her some more.

Ok I see you briefly mention her here though

I disagree with you though, I think her recent posts were much better and in line with what I expect from town!Titus

[Spiffeh]

Human Sequencer's posts make me even more confident in my R&R town read

[Spiffeh]

Anyways, right now I am not 100% against SAD lynch, but I am worried about Beeboy and Creature atm, because I feel Beeboy reads and thoughts are just empty space. Creature with his reads just being super bad.

I agree with beeboy, but I feel like I go through the same song and dance with Creature every game

You should know by now that Creature's reads being bad/making no sense doesn't make him scum. As far as I know he lurks super hard as scum and has trouble making his posts sound natural. As annoying as it is, I feel that his many posts proclaiming that the same three people are scum as well as posts like "why aren't scum lynched yet" are more likely to come from town!Creature than scum!Creature.

Wasn't it you who said something similar earlier?

[Spiffeh]

I am on SAD too and im not moving because he's been changing his stance of me over time ever since my vote on him.
Sorry Jiffy.

Seriously?

My read on you has been changing constantly too. It's perfectly natural to have stances change as the game progresses and you should know this. I even agree with him that your posting since early game has gotten notably worse.

[Spiffeh]

beeboy is a good candidate for scum

PEdit: @Gorkington do you have any scum reads currently?

Do you disagree?

[Spiffeh]

VOTE: Steven Quartz

This vote stays until a fuck is given by this slot

Yeah this is awful

It's inevitable that this slot will be replaced. You seemed to have some strong opinions as you caught up but opted to do the least useful thing you can do with your vote.

[Spiffeh]

Your stance change makes sense, his feels unnatural since it only started happening since my vote on him.

Eh

He said earlier that he reads people better if they are pushing him (which is something I do too) so I don't think it's scummy at all

[Spiffeh]

beeboy is a good candidate for scum

PEdit: @Gorkington do you have any scum reads currently?

Do you disagree?

[Redacted]

What?

Answer the question

[Spiffeh]

Also Spiffeh, ill decide whats a usefull usage of my vote tyvm

Yeah I'm sure that vote will really compel Yume to start participating

I'm telling you the slot will get replaced. It doesn't make sense to me that you'd vote there over someone like MoI who you've seemingly been going back and forth with all game.

[Spiffeh]

I'm not

[Spiffeh]

That's more of a testament to Titus' towniness

I'm pretty confident she's town here

I have been second guessing myself on SAD because I think his attitude towards his wagon is pretty town but I can't shake how awful his push on me has been

Instead of genuinely trying to parse my alignment it seems like he tried to cherry pick posts of mine that he could cast in any sort of negative light

[Spiffeh]

Spiffeh MIGHT not be as scummy as I thought I need to reread him

SAD it's really difficult to view this as genuine when in your recent review of me you literally tried to paint everything I've done as scum motivated.

Spoiler: What I'm responding to for reference

First time he voted was I'm assuming RVS. But without any real emotion attached. Actually I think that's largely the problem I had with Spiffeh early game. He seemed to be trying to come off as a ~passionate~ player but it came off so robotically. This is pretty noticeable when he took an p random Marquis post and called it "worst post". 2 things wrong with that. First off all, the "game" was not that long at that stage. When people say "you've made the worst post so far in the game" usually they do it when there has been a lot of substance/meat in the game, not on like page 2. Second, with no reasoning attached and the Marquis post not being obviously bad at all, it just looks contrived that he would take a random player and call one of their posts bad. It feels like he's trying to get a 1v1 going, scum love to have back and forths with people because it keeps them busy. This is also extremely apparent when he continues to "get annoyed" when I do not respond to him. Why does he care so much about me responding to him if he has already deemed me as scum? I understand when someone wants to interact with his scumread to maybe realize they are wrong, but Spiffeh's approach borders desperality, almost like he's begging for a 1v1 to happen. It's similar to what I did in Masquerade ball with Shadow, I repeatedly continued to focus his attention on myself so I can hide in the spotlight, it's a pretty good scum tactic to employ and one I think Spiffeh attempted to use here. A lot of little things in his ISO give off HUGE redflags. Post 265, I have not mentioned or cared about his vote on me, and he starts it with "if you want me to get off you". Again, back to the forced 1v1. Post 512, "before my true tunnel is UNLEASHED". Cringey forced, and again, I don't care about him or his vote I pointed something out and he took it upon himself to try and direct my attention on himself. Post 755, "All the while he's been finding everything under the sun about ME that he can paint as scummy and hasn't justified the Titus scum read at all" Even if we assume he missed the page, again, a person can have multiple scumreads and early vote locations can be used more to pressure than to just put it on top scumread. Even IF I had justified my Spiffeh scumread more, that a) does not mean my scumread on him is stronger nor b) mean that my vote belongs on there.

I don't know where you get that I was trying to come across as passionate? I noticed things and said how I felt about them. That's how I play early game.

I am at a fucking loss for how you could possibly interpret my comment about Marquis' post as me looking for a 1v1. You try to pass my scum read on you as the same thing. This point is so clearly drawn out of thing air so you can act like this is some sort of pattern with me.

My scum read on you has been well substantiated and the reasoning should be abundantly clear by now. I gave a shit when you ignored me because I was scum reading you and felt you answering my questions would help confirm if my suspicions were sound. You opt to view this as me trying to cement a vendetta against you so I can "hide behind it" rather than the obvious, town alternative. This is the shit you've been doing all game. Cherry picking posts to construct narratives that make me look bad.

This is not someone that's genuinely trying to read me. There's not one iota of consideration that I'm town, despite how he said that I might not be as scummy as he thought. I understand town confbias exists, and that SAD is apparently an arrogant player and probably more susceptible to thinking he's right all the time. But I struggle to see how town can confbias to the point of pulling shit out of his ass that he pushes as if I've had some master plan all along, when nothing even remotely CLOSE to what he's saying actually exists.

[Spiffeh]

{Spiff, MoI, SAD, Majiffy, Gork, Vifam} <--- Don't want to Lynch today tier

Yeah please enlighten me on how SAD can possibly be in this first tier after his performance today

[Spiffeh]

SAD if you're actually town I suggest you look over a town game of mine.

At the very least you should be able to recognize that my performance here is nothing like DEFCON

[Spiffeh]

P much exactly like DEFCON where I had you nailed but people kept townreading you and I let that influence my read on you and I didn't push it as hard as I should have.

This is actually something I haven't considered

It is kiiiiiinda plausible for SAD to be super hard on me after DEFCON, where I was also universally town read but ended up being scum

So in some form I can see him not wanting to let go of a bad feeling about me

But I still don't think this excuses the lengths at which he's trying to make me look bad

[Spiffeh]

@mod please prod Steven Quartz

[Spiffeh]

VOTE: Sakura Hana

[Spiffeh]

I'm starting to buy that SAD believes all the shit he's spewing

Which makes it all that more unacceptable

[Spiffeh]

It's mostly a placeholder until I bother to go back and reevaluate because I don't have any rock solid scum reads anymore

She's had several bad posts ever since I wrote her off as town early game

[Spiffeh]

@mod V/LA til Sunday the 5th

[Spiffeh]

hey guys I'm back but not really because there's too much for me to read rn so I'll be here tomorrow

[Spiffeh]

Spiffeh seems to be really interested in seeing me go off on MOI, and I could see naughty reasoning behind this since I do tend to tunnel quite hard once i do go off (which is a fact well known to spiffeh).

First of all, that most certainly is not a fact well known to me? We have no completed games together so idk why you're acting like I'm some expert on how you play.

Also, the above quote shows that you were at least suspicious of me. This was right before I went V/LA and I've only made a handful of posts since then. Yet you say this:

I liked a few posts from Spiffeh but we'll see how he does from now I'm interested in keeping him on my radar.

I also liked most of what he posted.....I just want him to get back in here and produce more stuff for me to like

I'm surprised that your opinion on me can change so dramatically when I haven't even been posted. Where is this sudden "liking me" coming from?

[Spiffeh]

I'm still towards the beginning of my catch up but I am retracting my town read on Majiffy

I town read him early for his "I don't give a fuck" attitude but ever since then he's been tunneling people I perceive to be both obvious town and lynchbaity which isn't worthy of a town read

[Spiffeh]

Ima go post more reads and then get scum read because I don't have time to push people.

Yeah it's pretty garbage that beeboy sees he's being scum read and he defaults to "let me make a reads list"

This is the second time he's done this

It feels like scum that can't really actively engage with the game so he does something that "looks good" instead

[Spiffeh]

Spiffeh - I still liked how he was actively pressuring me a lot in the early game (even the pregame which felt really town) so town.

Also this isn't really true?

I asked him like when question in the neighborhood and never really followed up on it

[Spiffeh]

I am confident that Rick and Andrea are town and I don't see that ever changing

[Spiffeh]

Lol?

I'm catching up and giving opinions as I read

Where the fuck is this coming from

PEdit: Yes

[Spiffeh]

What a wonderful participation Spiffeh

No one is even advocating a R&A scumread, why the fuck don't you do something useful

Like even this last page of catch up is probably more "useful" then most of what you've done all game

Sooooooooo

[Spiffeh]

Yep I'm getting hardcore Goatmeal-from-Thing vibes from beeboy

He's identified the influential players and is either town reading them for weird reasons (me) or devoting walls of text to appeasing them (Gork) while doing almost no scum hunting on his own

[Spiffeh]

while doing almost no scum hunting on his own

Reading on a bit more this isn't really true but there's still something to be said for him only participating after being called out

[Spiffeh]

She has several bad posts every single game

FTFY

Nah I've been able to identify you as town extremely easily before (as you know) and I'm really not seeing it here

Yeah you say you're apathetic but that's not really an excuse for what I'm seeing

And I seem to remember you pulling a similar card in Musical Mafia where you were scum which I might look for later

[Spiffeh]

I think MoI is more likely town here than not

I've been a little hesitant to commit one way or another on him because of Thing Mafia but I think SAD is right in some respect that his pushes here for a lot like town!MoI.

In The Thing he was scum and it felt like he tended to go with the flow and buddied me hard to the point where it felt his reads only existed to coincide with mine

Here I feel like he's not concerned what people think of him and seems to actually believe what he's pushing

[Spiffeh]

The lack of “presence” I don’t see how you get that to this stage. This is a Large game and Gork is as active and engaged as I saw him in both TV Characters and Defcon. Not seeing his scum game really is a non-starter for me .. why haven’t you gone to do some looking to see what scum Gork tends to do?

As far as I know scum!Gork has never been a thing

I'm pretty sure Cheet has no completed scum games that occurred after I joined the game

So I don't think his scum!meta would be very reliable

This is mostly moot because he's become more engaged and is probably town

[Spiffeh]

I'm pretty sure Cheet has no completed scum games that occurred after I joined the

SITE

EBWOP

[Spiffeh]

HS can actually read quite well. The fact she's obviously lying about my meta makes me think she's scum.

This is a train of thought that Creature continues pushing that makes me pretty sure he's town

This is something I do often as town if I'm being scum read by someone that I feel should recognize that I'm town. The fact that he initially brought it up and is still pushing it despite everyone ignoring it is really town

I feel like everyone's ignoring the valid meta arguments that Creature is town here

If there's one piece of meta that I feel I can use reliably it's Creature, his play here and what I know from his scum game are like night and day

[Spiffeh]

Vecna's reaction to MoI's push and his subsequent push back looks town

[Spiffeh]

spiff was in mafiaception.
hes going to back me up here.

hey

I don't think this is anywhere near obvious scum!Titus levels like you're making it out to be

Titus has actual read progression here
Titus is actually making pushes that make sense to me from her point of view
Titus isn't hardcore buddying anyone like I'd expect her to as scum

Like the last thing I'd expect Titus to do as scum is step on your feet after you nailed her in Mafiaception

I see you're not voting here anymore but if you still feel this confident than you're going to have to walk me through it

[Spiffeh]

zzzzz

vote: creature

why

[Spiffeh]

There's also the fact that the other wagons gain momentum quickly, this has been slow going.

More indicative of a scum lynch.

Lol this is just completely untrue

[Spiffeh]

my reads were bad, there was a wagon and i disliked creature's engage with byf/r&r at the time.

I thought your read on beeboy was good

Why let that go?

[Spiffeh]

Since when would you trust someone's meta read on someone else over your own thoughts

[Spiffeh]

I think I wrote off Vifam and BYF as town too early

[Spiffeh]

VOTE: Ankamius

[Spiffeh]

Rick and Andrea talk to me about your MoI read because I have a town lean on him but you guys seem to feel differently

And we have the same recent "history" with him

Am I missing something?

[Spiffeh]

I'd like to know why you complain about people being unreadable while refusing to actually read the game

I'd like to know why you're asking filler questions just like you do when you're scum

[Spiffeh]

You're more than welcome to tell me why I'm wrong

Why jump to saying "you don't know my town game" instead of explain the things you're saying I know nothing about?

[Spiffeh]

I don't know where you're getting the idea that talking about my read on you would be fruitless

In case it wasn't clear, I want to know why you haven't read the thread and what you do when you don't have a foothold

Since I "wouldn't know"

[Spiffeh]

Ok I'm pretty much caught up

I heavily skimmed the last 10 or so pages but oh well

Town: {Rick and Andrea, Creature, Rem and Ram, Gorkington, Titus}
Townlean: {mastina, MoI}
Null: {Nahdia, SAD, Majiffy, BigYoshiFan, Vifam, Vecna}
Scumlean: {Ankamius, beeboy-slot, Sakura Hana}

I thought my catch up would give me a clearer view of the gamestate but it accomplished the exact opposite. I have no solid scum reads and too many null reads for my liking.

Bottom line is that Creature is getting lynched over my dead body.

I wish someone in the game that I trust had strong opinions for me to sheep but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I'll probably do more later to sort my null reads and we'll see where I go from there

[Spiffeh]

Ok Ank

Do you have any strong reads at the moment?

[Spiffeh]

I'll be here tonight

Creature is still town, I'll try to address the cases on him when I'm home

Gorkington if you're still voting for him I will have words for you

[Spiffeh]

Why is everyone scum reading my town reads

[Spiffeh]

Yep you caught our buddy so we have to keep discrediting your case

You're really catching on

[Spiffeh]

Sakura Hana - is that scum read formed from anything other than meta?

She's made several bad posts that I pointed out (admittedly way earlier in the game) and nothing she's done has really changed it

Some of it's meta too

I don't remember town!her ever being this disengaged from the game

[Spiffeh]

Majiffy and Vecna - Why is Majiffy not at least Townlean. And although I disagree completely how is Vecna null to you as you recently said you liked how he handled the pressure from me.

Up to this point I'm not seeing why you think I should be town reading Majiffy?

He's been pushing what I believe to be lynchbait all game, and I don't think he's done anything else beyond his realm of capability as scum

I know he's made a few "cases" on Creature that I haven't read yet so I'll read them over and hopefully feel one way or the other about him

Yeah I thought Vecna's spat with you was townie but there are also other posts that have given me pause that I can't be assed to dig up

Off the top of my head: he says "I miss Spiffeh doing town things" or something like that when he had previously only said negative things about me

[Spiffeh]

No SAD I'm being useless and catching up on things that don't matter in an effort to get to the things that do matter

[Spiffeh]

Hey Majiffy and everyone else scum reading Creature this is why Creature is town

Everyone is ignoring the meta arguments R&R posted because they are shit. I have a significant amount of experience with Creature, as do several of the people currently town reading him. You can't possibly compare a scum game with so few posts with any of his town games and say "the content is what matters". I am CONFIDENT that scum!Creature would cower away from the thread when being wagoned and hope his wagon lost steam instead of facing his naysayers head on like he's doing here. Every step of the way he's been fighting back with snarky replies and all the while still contributing his reads and thoughts on the rest of the game. I wouldn't expect scum!Creature to have this level of contribution while he's been the "target" for the whole Day.

In particular, his R&R read is something that really resonates as genuine with me. He feels that HS wouldn't be misreading him as town, which is something I completely understand. He's maintained this viewpoint even when people have completely ignored it. There's no opportunism with his pushes, there's ACTUAL reasons for them that make sense.

Yes Creature has put his foot in his mouth multiple times. Look at any of his town games to see that this isn't indicative of him being scum.

Wagon speed and anything similar means jack shit. You can literally frame any argument about wagon speed/counter wagons to fit any push ever. "Oh the Creature wagon is stalling" is not a fucking valid reason to justify parking there.

Bottom line: Creature is town and will not be getting lynched today

[Spiffeh]

Majiffy is clearly going into his Creature read with the intention of scum reading him. He's throwing

The problem is I think this could come from him as either alignment

I think the worst part of his push is that he tries to pass off EVERYONE defending Creature as a par of Creature's scumteam which is such a bullshit and ridiculous assumption to make.

Even if he's certain Creature is scum, the fact that he doesn't consider that town can disagree/scum could be bussing him shows that he really isn't doing any critical thinking and just wants to further his agenda more.

So I could definitely see Majiffy being scum

[Spiffeh]

Legit all 4 scum are in {Gin, Titus, Ank, RemRam, Vecna} with an extremely small outside chance of {Mastina, Yoshi, MoI}

Hold me to this post game as the mafia PRODIGY I am.

I thought I was in your scum pool?

[Spiffeh]

Titus I'm starting to lean heavily towards SAD being town

[Spiffeh]

INTERESTING I feel the exact opposite in every manner
~Andrea

Yeah I saw that and wanted you to elaborate on why you felt that way

[Spiffeh]

Yeah this feels like the thing Moi he goes for little things that you could see as scummy but if you look at the bigger picture really isn't anyone tring him I'm questioning

Are you saying this is a scum behavior for MoI?

Because I'd argue he does this as town too

[Spiffeh]

VOTE: Gin

[Spiffeh]

Seriously me/Maria/Spiffeh scumreading the slot should be more than enough evidence for you unless people think we're all scum.

Not really scum reading Ank anymore

[Spiffeh]

Like you have to be kidding me, how do you ignore my scum bee meta evidence and keep bee slot as a strong townread while pushing creature as scum by meta.

You actually expect someone to drop a read because you, who's been pretty fucking absent up to this point, claim to have meta that points to him being scum?

Obviously someone having meta from personal experience will be more valuable to them than someone else's meta

And you've done like shitall to push beeboy today so it's ridiculous to assume that someone would drop everything they feel about a slot to follow your lead based on what you've contributed this day

[Spiffeh]

Titus can you explain why you're scum reading Vifam/quote me to a post explaining it?

[Spiffeh]

Ank earlier you said you really disliked how the MoI wagon took off

But here you don't really seem to have a problem with how the Gin wagon took off

What's the difference?

[Spiffeh]

Hey Nahdia it is kind of concerning to me that you talk a big game about R&R being scum but the things you cite don't really back up that level of confidence?

For instance,

Scum Butts {Titusdra, Rem and Ram}

In what world do you think two scum are in the same neighborhood together?
-Rem (Ali)

this is a scum post this is a scum post this is a scum post this is a scum post this is a scum post this is a scum post this is a scum post this is a scum post this is a scum post this is a scum post this is a scum post this is a scum post this is a scum post this is a scum post

In what world does Alisae actually think that's a strong enough world to preface it with "In what world"?

In the world where they think there is one scum per neighborhood? Which is a genuine thought I can see coming from a player not experienced with setups like this. I think they even say something later that implies they are working under the assumption that there is one scum per neighborhood.

So like this isn't compelling at all and certainly not the slam dunk you're making it out to be.

[Spiffeh]

Is there any other reason you're scum reading them that I'm missing?

[Spiffeh]

Nahdia that doesn't make me feel better or address my issues at all

What about expecting there to be one scum per neighborhood is scummy? If anything I'd say that looks like a town mindset because I doubt that scum are evenly distributed across neighborhoods

So your point against them makes no sense

[Spiffeh]

I feel that if Creature actually scumread anyone, he'd make much more of an effort to get them lynched.

Gross

What makes you think he isn't putting an effort in getting his scum reads lynched?

[Spiffeh]

Sakura, here's my concern with ya.
Creature wagon makes an attempt to grow.
And here you are on just about every single counter wagon besides Ank.
Like up to now your talk with Majiffy it feels like you're trying to avoid this Creature talk and quite frankly it concerns me.
-Ali

Don't make me regret town reading you all game

[Spiffeh]

Majiffy why are you completely ignoring the post where I lay out every reason I am town reading Creature

[Spiffeh]

Ok I'm just gonna ignore you now

[Spiffeh]

is there anything stopping people from just ignoring majiffy, really? like. beyond the rhetoric, there really isnt any reason to engage him. either you think creature is scum or you dont. its frankly a waste of time to try and engage him with the intent of changing his mind.

[Spiffeh]

Majiffy what do you think of Gin?

[Spiffeh]

I received the watch and targeted Rick and Andrea. No one visited them.

While I'm still leaning town on R&R, their claim doesn't make them town so I'm confused as to why people immediately unvoted after they claimed?

VOTE: Ankamius

[Spiffeh]

I said this in the neighborhood but I found it really weird that Ank had such different reactions for the sudden MoI wagon and sudden Gin wagon

She made a huge fuss about how the MoI wagon came out of nowhere but the Gin wagon took off in a way that objectively looked MUCH worse

If wagon speed was such an issue earlier then why is it suddenly NAI when Gin is getting wagoned?

It seems to me like she saw her buddy going down but didn't want to jump in and save him because it would look bad after he flipped

Like all her posts around the Gin wagon look forced and uncomfortable and have a completely different tune when she defended MoI

[Spiffeh]

SAD's dying wish was that MoI get pressured

Like he literally left a "Last Will" in case he died

[Spiffeh]

I'm sad that no one is chomping at the bit to know the mastina drama in our neighborhood

[Spiffeh]

R&A seemed like the most likely nightkill other than myself

I'm surprised SAD is dead actually

[Spiffeh]

This day shouldn't be rushed

I agree that MoI's posts deteriorated as the day progressed but I think Ank is more likely to flip scum

I can't imagine her treating such similar wagons SO differently if she weren't scum with Gin

[Spiffeh]

Gorkington what do you think of Ankamius?

[Spiffeh]

I didn't like MoI's interaction with me either. Ermmmmm.
VOTE: MagnaofIllusion

Gross

[Spiffeh]

im gonna reread her reaction to gin-wagon.

Compare it with her reaction to the MoI "wagon" earlier where she belly-ached about wagon speed

[Spiffeh]

Ank why is Sakura scum?

[Spiffeh]

Sorry yesterday was balls so I'm catching up now

[Spiffeh]

In general I'm surprised that Creature is going pretty unnoticed today?

There were several people calling for his head yesterday and that's almost no where to be found today

Which could mean scum were pushing it yesterday and have stopped because they've realized he isn't an easy mislynch

Idk if this is even a plausible theory I'll have to check back

[Spiffeh]

Titus' Vifam vote is bad

[Spiffeh]

So where is the follow through Spiffeh? You think he ranted in typical derp SAD fashion that I had to die tomorrow and I killed him after helping push the Gin wagon over the top? I want to see a conclusion from you.

I don't have a conclusion

If I had one I would give it to you

[Spiffeh]

@Nahdia

R&A was heavily implying they were a power role (which may or may not be the case) and were really obvtown to me so I figured behind myself they were the most likely nightkill

[Spiffeh]

Since Gin was in our neighborhood scum already know this information so there's no reason to keep it hidden

mastina claimed rolecop inventor in our neighborhood. When the Gin wagon took off, she basically blackmailed us (Sakura and myself who were voting Gin) that she was already giving her rolecop to Gin and if we ended up lynching him then it would go to waste. And she refused to change it.

From what I understand she was basically using the neighborhood as a masonry (which I told her multiple times was stupid) and was pissed that we were deciding to lynch Gin without her being around.

So that's what SAD and Sakura were talking about at the end of Day 1.

[Spiffeh]

Still don't have a solid read on MoI

I think the Creature "compromise" vote Day 1 was pretty terrible. There was still plenty of time left in the Day and MoI doesn't seem like the type of town player to compromise, especially with how hard he was going after SAD and Vecna.

I also find it odd that he claims that scum hardcore bussed Gin but isn't really mentioning anyone other than Vecna. Who are the other scum that bussed Gin early on?

However, I still see a lot of town!MoI in his pushes. The stubbornness, and the take-no-crap attitude don't really remind me of scum!MoI I played with in The Thing. Here MoI doesn't look like he's trying to get on anyone's good side. He's been pretty hard on me in particular, someone I'd think he'd be wary of after The Thing.

So as annoying as it is I'm still at the "wait and see" stage with MoI

I'd like to hear where R&A's head is at with him

[Spiffeh]

In fact gin talked too mastina more than anyone else and mentioned her about 10 times in his ISO directly (probably a bunch indirectly because I see him quoting her a few times)

Unless you think Scum!Gin joins a game where he is getting pushed and decides to hard buddy a scum buddy, i am very sure he was trying to pocket mastina.

~Rick

I agree with this assessment

[Spiffeh]

Vecna clearly. You and Spiffeh possibily.

LOL where the fuck is this coming from?

Please elaborate

[Spiffeh]

I think R&R are coasting on their claim

They've done literally nothing since the start of the Day other than claim.

I understand the hesitance of lynching a claimed watcher inventor and I agree that they shouldn't be today's lynch but town reading them just because a watcher immune goon flips is stupid. There's no reason these two roles can't be scum together. In theory it just allows the scum team to assign a watch to whoever and not have to worry about it. Nothing about these roles suggest they must be different alignments.

I also hate the plan to force someone to watch them. Whoever receives the watch should consider it but go with whoever they feel is the best option. If they're scum, this is an easy explanation for staying alive through endgame. This is exactly what happened with EP in The Thing and I'm not taking that chance here.

[Spiffeh]

Majiffy should die sooner rather than later

[Spiffeh]

I was trying to emulate my PR-town play in order to draw a night kill since I figured out pretty quickly that there's a lot of 'leader' types and we really don't need another one.

Which posts of yours indicate you are trying to emulate your town-PR play?

Because this sounds like a load of BS to me

[Spiffeh]

Vecna why are you voting for Ank all of a sudden

If MoI is your biggest scum read, why wouldn't you want to keep that wagon as viable as possible?

[Spiffeh]

The reason is because she doesn't actually have a case. The entire way she's been going about this push on me is sketchy as everloving fuck and it's mind blowing that people are somehow thinking that it's worth sheeping.

I'm pretty sure exactly 0 people are sheeping mastin's case

[Spiffeh]

Mastina and Sakura Hana should be chain lynched in any order.
Spiffeh is likely scum.

Why do people think it's ok to suddenly scum read me without giving reasoning just because I'm not here

Please explain.

Also these reads imply that our neighborhood consisted of the entire scum team and SAD. Does this mean anything to you?

[Spiffeh]

People aren't exactly scumreading her for it either.

It looks like mastina being mastina to me and I'm having trouble understanding how you don't see that since (iirc) you claim to have a decent amount of experience with her.

Do you think scum!mastina blackmails our neighborhood to not lynch her scumbuddy when he's clearly going down?

[Spiffeh]

I've been scumreading you for a while, actually. The only reason I haven't stated it before now is because I have never played against scum-you as town yet.

Ok and I'm asking you why you're scum reading me.

[Spiffeh]

FB where are you at with MoI right now?

[Spiffeh]

In general I'm surprised that Creature is going pretty unnoticed today?

You know I'm still not that player that constantly spams the thread everyday, right?

Yeah I worded this weirdly. I'm not saying that that you're getting overlooked because you're scummy, I meant it more as I'm surprised the people pushing you yesterday are literally no where to be found pushing you today?

Majiffy, BYF, etc.

[Spiffeh]

Looking back at BYF's ISO I see he was vocally scum reading Creature yesterday but he has barely even mentioned him today.

And at the beginning of the Day he made a really awful vote hopping on the rapidly forming MoI wagon when the only time he almost never mentions MoI the previous Day?

[Spiffeh]

Because every time you've scumread me in the past, you've immediately voted and tried to put as much pressure on as possible. Your play looks more like you're trying to emulate that since you're doing the voting bit, but I never once got the feeling that you were legitimately trying to pressure me outside of the first 1-2 posts you made after your initial vote before you backed off.

Your responses to me satisfied me enough to look elsewhere. I'm pretty sure I made a post about reading you as town a little bit after that?

It's not like I've had this constant scum read on you that I've been holding in my back pocket to use in case a wagon on you formed. I didn't really scum read you until after the flip and until I noticed your asymmetric treatment of the MoI and Gin wagons.

And none of your recent posts make me feel that much better.

What are your thoughts on BYF?

[Spiffeh]

Hey Majiffy what are your reads beyond Creature scum?

[Spiffeh]

Gork, Vifam, Vecna, Creature scum

Ok literally none of these people are even close to getting lynched and you're currently voting Ank

So ???

[Spiffeh]

Thank you for that generic combination of words that isn't at all applicable to the situation

Also happy birthday!

[Spiffeh]

@R&A The whole "he did this as scum before" isn't all that compelling to me especially when it's about role shenanigans. I agree that his conclusion is wrong but town reading PR claims is pretty natural and he's certainly not the only one doing it here.

He's apparently scum reading me so I'm hoping he elaborates on that and then I'll be able to parse whether he's bullshitting or not

[Spiffeh]

I'm not assuming that you've held a scumread on me the whole time. I'm saying that when you did put pressure on me, it doesn't look like how you usually pressure me when you believe I'm scum.

I mean it's been at least over a year since we last played right? I don't even remember how I usually am when I pressure you, or why it would have to be the same every time we play together.

[Spiffeh]

I mean you said I'm likely scum

And I'm almost universally town read

So why wouldn't you want to bring this up to make sure I don't continue to get overlooked?

[Spiffeh]

Yeah but I had to pry the reasoning out of you

Did you think a naked scum read on me would have accomplished anything if you were lynched?

I still don't get why you wouldn't want your suspicion of me known and evaluated, even before you have a strong possibility of getting lynched

[Spiffeh]

Ok fine

Do you still believe that myself, mastina, and Sakura are the most likely to be scum? Do you have any scum reads beyond us?

You haven't addressed that we're all in the same neighborhood with recent scum flip Gin either, does that factor in at all with your read?

[Spiffeh]

hi I don't like this Vecna wagon

[Spiffeh]

hi I don't like this Vecna wagon

I have a few hours of driving ahead of me.

Why don't you?

Who do you like wagoning?

I'd like to amend my previous statement

Vecna, like MoI, has been someone I've been going back and forth on. His posting today actually looked more town to me than not so I'm confused as to why he's garnered so much suspicion today over yesterday?

Looking briefly back at his play around the Gin wagon, his vote doesn't look like a bus. If he were scum, why would he even bother threatening to unvote Gin after 12 hours? Why not just commit to the bus when Gin is already a dead man walking?

Can you explain why you're scum reading Vecna?

[Spiffeh]

Ank's behavior around the Gin wagon is still the worst out of everyone. I still don't like how she mentions a scum read on me in passing without pursuing it.

I ESPECIALLY don't like how she drops her Sakura scum read as soon as Sakura backs down.

[Spiffeh]

I think it's a bus mainly because of the D2 towncred grab.

Can you point me to this please?

Also can you explain why you are now town reading Sakura?

[Spiffeh]

It's looking like my initial scumread was justified after all.

Your scum read on me is still bullshit though?

Earlier you said that you were suspicious of how I handled pressuring you. Fine.

I've been engaging you a shitton today but and now that I'm going hard after you, your initial scum read is justified.

Do you not see the issue there?

[Spiffeh]

Antihero would NOT make a watch-immune goon with a scum watcher-inventor. He simply wouldn't. Antihero hates moderator shenanigans; that EASILY qualifies as a moderator shenanigan

im honestly kind of surprised that spiff didnt think of this when he said r&r shouldnt be given a pass.

Seriously?

First of all, I had no idea Antihero was so against "moderator shenanigans"

And this isn't even moderator shenanigans? It's not like the watcher-immune goon completely nullifies the watcher ability. If they die (like they did here) or for whatever reason don't make the kill, the watch is still useful. It's stupid to operate under the assumption that mastina's mod meta is accurate.

And you are the last person I'd expect to give R&R a free pass, especially after your opinion of them at the end of Day 1.

I'm not advocating lynching them today or anytime soon. If they are town it's likely they will get nk'd (especially with a watch-immune goon dead).

But do you not agree that their play has deteriorated significantly ever since they claimed? I'm not gonna let scum coast off role shit after the same thing happened in The Thing.

[Spiffeh]

Considering that your new reasoning for scumreading me is pretty blatant bullshit, no, there isn't an issue at all.

Are you talking about the Sakura read flip?

Because no that's not bullshit.

You stated earlier that Sakura, mastina, and myself were scum reads of yours. These happen to be the people that have been pushing for your lynch the most (other than maybe Gorkington). When Sakura unvoted and stopped pressuring you, you decided that you were no longer scum reading her.

You claim that after you looked back at some of Vecna's stuff, you are now scum reading him. Surprisingly enough, Vecna is ALSO on your wagon. So of the five votes currently on you, you are scum reading three of them (assuming you're still scum reading mastina).

This shows that you have a pattern of scum reading the people pressuring you and town reading those defending you. While this isn't really scummy on it's own, I'm certain that you'd be experienced enough to recognize that you were doing this. And you specifically have enough experience with me to realize that this is how I operate.

[Spiffeh]

Like even if you are still skeeved out by how I'm approaching pressuring you, what about everything else I've done?

You said earlier that some of my other stuff looked town. Why does my pressure on you looking "scummy" supercede all of that?

You're either EXTREMELY confbiased on me because I'm your biggest detractor or you're scum

Guess which one I'm leaning towards

PEdit: @Ank