Surreptitious II: Secrets and Misdirection

[Thor665]

Vote: Group B

Both Majiffy and I are inside of it - this sounds like money to me.

[Thor665]

Oh, screw the new school voting;

VOTE: Group B

The reason I chose this way to vote is so that voting is much much easier for me to keep track of; the contrast is very easy to see. If there are some circumstance that prevent you from using vote tags, let me know.

[Thor665]

UNVOTE: Group B
VOTE: Group C

This excites me more, especially with the odd groundswell of support its gotten.

[Thor665]

See the problem with this is that there are at least 3 confirmed SANE people in group C

How do you connect sanity to alignment exactly?
Because those players who are sane tend to be sane regardless and vice versa - so I'm pretty sure that you're debating a policy preference with me here, no?

[Thor665]

You can read it as not comfortable losing my voice in the day 1 lynch with this playerlist, when the voices lost by choosing group B are much easier to just be like 'bye felicia' too.

I'd be more fine with that than the sanity argument.

@Thor: What is up with you this game?

Nothing that I'm aware of.

[Thor665]

You can read it as not comfortable losing my voice in the day 1 lynch with this playerlist, when the voices lost by choosing group B are much easier to just be like 'bye felicia' too.

I'd be more fine with that than the sanity argument.

@Thor: What is up with you this game?

Nothing that I'm aware of.

They're the same argument lmao

As long as you ignore the voice part, sure.

@Thor: What is up with you this game?

Nothing that I'm aware of.

You seem to be a lot more sheepy than normal. This concerns me.

How am I being sheepy?

[Thor665]

Thor-Jiffy, who in your group do you think is scum? [/i]

It's day 1 in a large, anyone advancing any scum read as particularly meaningful is being silly.
I'd be willing to lynch any of them besides Majiffy, and it's not that I town read him, I just want him to live till the game is small enough we can sort of interact, get paranoid at each other, and set up a 1v1

Are you claiming you had your own reasons to vote your own group and that you weren't following the avalanche of B votes? What about your C vote? That group is starting to get a lot of attention now. Was your vote not influenced by that?

I would absolutely claim that about B.
At the point I moved to C it was smaller than B, so if my move was sheep oriented for C it weakens your argument for B to be sheepy.
Your move.

[Thor665]

It's day 1 in a large, anyone advancing any scum read as particularly meaningful is being silly.

example of you having this philosophy before plz

I'll offer a counter bit of research for you - go see how many Larges I choose to *start* in over the past five years and you'll get an answer pretty quickly.
I know for a fact I'm on record on site somewhere a few years back in a game advocating just lynching people for a few days to cut down on the noise. But I don't offer the thought a lot because I explicitly avoid the stage as much as possible. Because I have the thought.

[Thor665]

Verily.

[Thor665]

To be specific - start in the game and not replace into the game.

[Thor665]

Why are so many people town reading me so early? That is actually making me nervous about my own reads.

People are throwing out reads and adjusted reads like Skittles - why do you think it matters?

Creature often does lists as town.

Does he not do them as scum?

Oh god you're scum and want me to townread you in endgame aren't you

Nah, I want you to townread me until the day before lylo, then, at night I want you to figure it out, then I want to kill you that night for epic lulz and Dead QT rage.
You got me into a Large at game start - I'm going to kill you regardless of my alignment

This vote count is gold. The group B voters are so town rich I think I've got my daily dose of vitamins from just looking at it. In contrast there are a lot of people voting Group C that are null-scum with a only couple town reads sprinkled in-between. I think that the reason why is that in Group C there's a lot more reads that are all over the place while people are slowly forming a consensus on group B.

The only one that I think there is stark disagreement with among those voting in Group B is LUV (He's scum btw).

I don't even get this, scum are in two sets of 3 that don't know each other, so the idea they're going to bother to influence the Group selection much...meh? I mean, if they're doing it, great, but I'll be fascinated to learn their reasons.

It always takes me a while to sort out Thor, though usually I end up town reading him more than scum reading him. I am more familiar with him in newbie games than large games. Last time we were in a game together that was a large theme game, was the 42 player role madness game. He turned out to be scumz and even though I was a known and confirmed Mason, he still did not try to kill me. In fact he did not kill anyone for several nights in a row, which made everyone think that the red scum were all gone.

It was definitely not a play one usually sees from scum, and that is why I always am suspicious of him even if I think he is town.

And this is why I spend all of day 3 in most games with you battering my head against a wall?

UNVOTE: Group C
VOTE: Groub B

That is L-1 if the last voter tallied things right, someone should lolhammer.
Or, better yet, demand a claim and then get pissed when someone else lolhamers.

[Thor665]

VOTE: Group B

[Thor665]

Transcends' vote is pretty meh within the context of why Group B was a better group to select.
Not that I'm sure I'm buying that context, but if he did, then, y'know, suspect that skeeve.

PEdit - I refuse to use a "hurt" tag. I'm a man full grown, we don't admit pain.

[Thor665]

Lmao

Well if you think Majiffy is a lousy vote then tell me who you think a better vote is, because he's the only one in that group I remotely suspect right now. I tr everyone else.

[Thor665]

Okay, let's break down one of your town reads.

Why do you ton read me?
I haven't done SPIT this game.
So, why townread me?

[Thor665]

Well people are still readable if they don't do anything to solve the game

Some will argue me but naa

I feel like your entrance and confidence read town and your guns blazin' attitude if you know what I mean.

Yeah...because when I'm town I sob and sit silently in a corner.
But at least I'm CONFIDENTLY not doing anything!

[Thor665]

it seems like you don't want me to townread you

More that I'm choosing to point out how empty your reads are - but feel free to interpret it any way you like.

[Thor665]

this game is practically three 5-2 minis and can be treated more of as such.

No it can't.
And even if I were to accept that claim - feel free to explain the scumhunting possible in the group vote section.
Like, explain how scum are motivated and how you can possibly track that at this stage.
I'll wait.

[Thor665]

Town doesn't have the information to present a read that strong based on those two posts.

I 100% agree with this.
That said, town do it all the time.
Have you seriously never seen a town player do this/see it done like half the time by scum players?

That seems unlikely.

[Thor665]

So you're saying that's not a good scumtell but you're focused on pressuring the slot because of it?

[Thor665]

I scumread Mikan now.

[Thor665]

I mean I think you're wrong but if you actually believe that we can have the chat later.

Let's have it - I find analysis during that stage pretty laughable as literally the only possible thing a scum could do that a town wouldn't would be to try to kibosh the voting into a group where he has a buddy that he thinks is less likely to be lynched than another, and on Day 1 - I would pay a million internet dollars to *ANYBODY* who accurately called something outside of random chance percentages.

I'm busy at a con this weekend and I see that you have joined larges before so it would be VERY helpful if you just linked me 1 or 2 examples of thinking this same thing before ANYWHERE as town.

Literally there is no way I can do that search more effectively than you - as both of us would just be scanning ISOS, and since I'm not the one who appears to think that Thor would lie about this belief as scum when he holds the opposite belief as town I think the obligation of the meaningless grunt work falls solely on you, and I'll just mock it if you manage to cobble together anything from it
Honestly I don't even get why you're doing the make busy work here a thing, like, what's the theory scumtell even?

[Thor665]

I have said that I remember saying it - hence we currently have the same tracking info.
I'll agree I'm not on my phone, but as I said, I see no reason I should waste the time doing your legwork on a case I know is bollocks anyway.

[Thor665]

It would be like me saying 'Ellie, I can't believe you think that scumhunting on Day 1 in a large is so important - please provide me examples of you explaining, as town, this belief in a Large!"

Yeah, you could know I'm daft.
And you probably could go and search through games and find evidence that fits the need to clear my case.
But why should you, and why would you, since the case is dumb and it would eat up like an hour or so of your time?
It's my dumb case, it's on me to justify it - not on you to disprove it in a vacuum even lacking a scum case.

Pedit - like I said, I'd love to hear it. i think you're fooling yourself.

And good luck getting me lynched, I have people townreading me for basically existing.

[Thor665]

random chance is like 17% accuracy?

i can garuantee i can do better with just data.

Sure - but you'd need data that can be mined for info.
Which means you need trackable behavior that town would do more/less than scum and vice versa.
I am suggesting that we don't have the possibility to search the data in a meaningful way since the criteria is so unknown to us as to be mathematically inconsequential.

[Thor665]

i do have examples

past two games ive' played

lmao

Okay?
Even if true this hardly disproves my point or stance.
What the hell are we even arguing now?

[Thor665]

I would sheep Elli

Last I checked I am available to be lynched.

[Thor665]

if you don't think even a primitive system with human assistance that has enough sample size that tracks word choice, post times, and other concrete shit like that can't do better than random on d1 you're the one fooling yourself lmao

I do think that and expalined why.
Feel free to describe your criteria - as I've asked.
I would love to be able to mine the group selection voting. I just don't see how.

[Thor665]

if you don't think even a primitive system with human assistance that has enough sample size that tracks word choice, post times, and other concrete shit like that can't do better than random on d1 you're the one fooling yourself lmao

I do think that and expalined why.
Feel free to describe your criteria - as I've asked.
I would love to be able to mine the group selection voting. I just don't see how.

i gtg

but if this is sometihng ur actually interested in

how many games in a row do i need above random accuracy on d1 in a row for you to admit that there exists a method and that you just don't know it

you can't call sometihng luck forever.

i'm not planning on teaching or sharing in the near future and I gnerrally can make up reasons or find reasons that people will sheep after the fact so.

Interesting straw man - what do you think I'm actually arguing with you?

I'm specifically arguing that there is spit all to get from the group selection phase.
I'm generally arguing that in a large early accuracy is very hard.

I'd love it if you could disprove the first in any way at all.
I suspect it would be easy enough to show a Bell Curve edge for the second, but that won't change my stance nor actually affect anything as I do think scumhunting works, and have never said it doesn't.

[Thor665]

It's day 1 in a large, anyone advancing any scum read as particularly meaningful is being silly.

Like, pay attention to what I'm saying here sweet cheeks - it will help your claimed randomness average beating.

[Thor665]

yeah im saying they are meaningful

but yeah we can do this after the game when we don't have doubts about each other's alignments.

Why can't you discuss theory scum hunting methods in the group selection stage?

[Thor665]

Ik it's like his lack of understanding of mechanics makes him town even after playing in the first one

Oh wait it does

Considering your 'whoops, ruling out people as scum together in the same group, silly me!' moment - this thought process makes you my assured desire for death tomorrow.

[Thor665]

Well, for starters - feel free to justify the 'suddenly' because I've been expressing some issues with you for at least a day or two now.

Secondly, I think you proving some self awareness about the idea that setup slips are townish increases the chances of you, as scum, choosing to try a setup slip, and you otherwise have appeared quite comfortable and aware of the setup besides your slip, which made it feel not too legit to me.

[Thor665]

If you think my attempts at a setup slip are faked then I dunno what to say.

Could you at least justify the 'suddenly' part of your complaint for me?
Because that was totally made up and attached flair to your challenge as far as I could tell.

[Thor665]

you legitmately
cannot read me.

That's wrong

I've read you correctly as town before

This isn't it

When have you led a lynch on me when I was actually scum.

pedit: My lack of awareness.

How was it sudden?
I literally brought it up as an issue the instant you did stuff that made it look suspect.
Prior to that all I could have said was 'hey! Mikan's setup awareness is sloppy and uneven!"
Which would have been meaningless.

[Thor665]

"I suddenly scumread Mikan because LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL"

I'll also admit I don't get lack of awareness as your issue here.

[Thor665]

Okay, you started the conversation, not me.

[Thor665]

I don't.
I am just transparently town, and if people are having a hard time seeing that then they're Smurfing hopeless

That's certainly one possibility.

[Thor665]

I'm kinda liking both Momo and Eddie after that exchange.

[Thor665]

What do you like about it, Thor?

I like that both took strong stances, and were aggressive without going into full bore derptard wail or other lynch antics.
Made it feel like both of you thought you were 100% right but willing to at least hear the other sides' story before making a call.

[Thor665]

Being sort of a pool onlooker is not as entertaining as I originally anticipated.

I find the CMM wagon pretty interesting thoughb and wouldn't mind the flip, the way it felt like there was initial resistance and now a sudden blitz onto it feels legit.

[Thor665]

Being sort of a pool onlooker is not as entertaining as I originally anticipated.

I find the CMM wagon pretty interesting thoughb and wouldn't mind the flip, the way it felt like there was initial resistance and now a sudden blitz onto it feels legit.

scum

You realize I'm in the group and commenting about someone within the group, right?

[Thor665]

And another ml anywhere else doesn't?

Actually, as far as I can see, no it doesn't, because if you leave a group at a 1/2 town/scum all the scum need to do is to get a goon lynched and they win the game, yeah?

I'm not sure it's not worth it though, as it's an adventure we do need to do and, hey, better odds - but the theoretical best situation for town is to actually nail scum in a different group and replenish the town inside B and *then* go in with better odds.

The only advantage to going in on B again is to protect town PRs - and that then makes it risky if scum lose a goon from A or C.

I'm like pretty sure the scum on Group B are Majiffy and Thor.

Considering the NK, I fail to see much logic with that claim.

[Thor665]

This is how I expect scum!Thor to play.

In what universe do you know anything about my meta exactly?
Saying you find me scummy - sure, i can buy that because, meh, you don't play well.
But saying you have expectations on my play? I'd like to hear that one justified a little.
I've blatantly been the most townish player in my group, and the only reason I wasn't capped was scum picked up something on Rauth.

[Thor665]

I've blatantly been the most townish player in my group

lol what?

Even if you disagree with this I note that you are ducking my question about your claimed ideas of how I play as scum v. town.

[Thor665]

@Transcend - Yeah, total contradiction - please ignore the dozen or so posts between those statements

@Lil Uzi - to assess if he's scum derping or town derping.

[Thor665]

How is having expectations of your play alignment indicative? Do you believe he’s intentionally lying?

I know he's lying, I'm trying to figure out if it's intentional.

[Thor665]

What's your counter argument exactly - he's town faking/mistaking about his meta awareness?
Yeah, that's possible - but you should assess it to see if it's true.
I've absolutely caught scum lying about meta before, it's a thing.

[Thor665]

I don’t think you know for sure.

He could’ve talked to people who’ve played with you the most on here. He could have studied your previous games.

He could be misinformed. He could also not just have a good understanding of your play style. None of that makes him scummy

Yes - and if he's lying it does make him scummy.
So why shouldn't I investigate to figure out which is which exactly?

[Thor665]

What conclusion other than "ypu don't know my meta and I'd like you to explain why you think you do" have I advanced exactly?

[Thor665]

He hasn’t presented why he feels that way or how he perceives your play. I also don’t think he’s using it as the basis for his push.

He's absolutely using it as the basis for his push.

[Thor665]

There’s no way to prove he’s lying though in this scenario.

There are very few scumtells that are absolute, I agree.
But I can get more info in order to make an assessment.

[Thor665]

You can’t make that claim without any evidence being stated from him.

Why do you think he said it then?

[Thor665]

He could know for all you know.

He could not know for all you know.
What are you arguing here even?
As I said - what conclusions did I advance that are bothering you?

[Thor665]

Because you're citing me for "anger" and complaining about "conclusions"
And I'm not angry, nor am I advancing conclusions.
I'm asking questions.

[Thor665]

Like, if I claimed I had perfect meta awareness of you, a player whom I think we've had 3 or so games together - wouldn't you like me to justify that claim a bit?
Or would you just shrug and go 'guess Thor *might* have awareness, let's move on."

Because if you'd do the latter - I have total awareness of Creature's playstyle - and this is a potential scumtell from him and I need to investigate it

[Thor665]

I think he said it because he genuinely believes he has an understanding of how you play as town and feel this isn’t it. There’s nothing wrong about that. Now solely pushing you because of that is and I don’t think that’s mainly why he thinks you’re scum. If it is, I would need him to show some work.

So, basically you think he's genuine and think he's got a different case on me that he hasn't presented - and so it bothers you that I'm questioning him on these points?

That makes no sense to me.
Why not just let me question him?

You just said you know he’s lying. That is jumping to conclusions.

Whether or not he's genuine has no bearing on whether or not something is factual.
I *know* he doesn't know my meta - unless I personally have no awareness of my meta.

[Thor665]

My beef Thor is that you think Creature is lying when their is no reason to believe so currently and there isn’t any motivation to do so here. No one is going to solely lynch someone of off meta alone

and if you believe yourself to be the towniest of Group B by far, why would anyone else be worth saving from a scum POV?

And my approach was to ask him to back up what he says he knows...so...what's the issue with that?

I don't understand the bolded.

[Thor665]

If it's misinformation or a misunderstanding, and I'm town (or scum, frankly) - what is the problem with me forcing him to assess the misunderstanding in order to realize he's wrong?

My "conclusion" is one of factual reality.


"It is best for your personal health to drink milk after it curdles."

That is factually wrong, and even if I'm genuine in believing it does *not* mean it's okay to let me keep believing it.

I'm saying that, if Creature is scum, he's not trying to out himself - but that doesn't prevent him from outting himself.

[Thor665]

Creature: I don’t expect Thor to play like this as town.
Thor: You don’t know my meta, you’re lying.

It’s a jump that doesn’t make sense.

I don't expect you to play like this as town.

[Thor665]

Also, that's a sad strawman of my actual reply. Let's look at what I actually said.

In what universe do you know anything about my meta exactly?
Saying you find me scummy - sure, i can buy that because, meh, you don't play well.
But saying you have expectations on my play? I'd like to hear that one justified a little.

[Thor665]

How is having expectations of your play alignment indicative? Do you believe he’s intentionally lying?

I know he's lying, I'm trying to figure out if it's intentional.

[Thor665]

I don’t expect Creature to blow us away with a analysis of your meta, but I don’t think you can prove he’s lying until he describes your town and scum game. I also don’t think you can convince him he’s wrong.

Well, let's wait and see, and until then you complaining about me asking is derpy, and bad play.

Thor, who's scum in your group?

Because for me, by PoE it's you and Majiffy.

I strongly question how you have any PoE at the moment.

I'd softly put money on Majiffy and the Snowman guy.

I played Newbie 1725 where you were very very obvious scum but town just didn't get in time to start a wagon on you then completely forgot about it next day, remember?

So you're saying my scum meta is that I'm super obvious scum and that's what I'm doing in this game?

[Thor665]

Also, just double checking, have you read any of my games besides the one we played together?
Have we played any other games together than that one?

[Thor665]

So you're saying my scum meta is that I'm super obvious scum and that's what I'm doing in this game?

You'd probably be hanging back and only making sure the wagon isn't on you.

What makes you think that?
Also, since I voted B...

I'm still remaining very 'meh' on the group voting deal. Consider me voting whichever one gets biggest, and I'll Leeroy Jenkins the hammer given half a chance.
I'm willing to buy Checkers' theory plan, because it will still eventually give me my theory plan later as well.

[Thor665]

Vote: Mikan

[Thor665]

Vote: Mikan

I never did get an answer to my questions but I gather we hammered group C?

You kind of never got an answer because it was already answered.
Short version;

There are two ways to try to approach this setup.
Nuclear lynch in one group - destroying the scum to fill other groups with confirmed town.
OR
Recognize that you have up to two mislynches per group - spread those out in order to maximize time for town PRs to work, and also to give town the most potential info moving forward.
Then go nuclear on the one group you think you have the best info on.

Which sounds better to you and why?
And, even if you like the former (like I do, because I'm an extremist) recognize that the latter plan still basically plays to the former, so why oppose it on the off chance you *do* get more info?

Make sense?

I have hunted for a Creature lynch over 3 days when he was intentionally caught lying, called out on it, and then

continued to lie

about what he was called out on.

He flipped town.

This saddens me greatly.
I do agree with you about how psychotic LUV is being about it though - why do you take it as WKing as opposed to buddy defense?

I've got townreads on Eddie and Zak, Creature is probably VI, which leaves Elli/Assemble/Dan

I like the Eddie read.
Don't get the Zak read.
I think Elli is town.

Snowy's the towniest still alive in B

For just spouting nonsense cases based on one liners with no backing?
Tell me more about this. That slot is trash.

Thor tone is relatively the same town and scum after reading some of his game. What changes is the agenda. In town games he is actually trying to solve the game and his arguments are more natural. In his scum games he is basicaly avoids any game solving and spends most of his time arguing tangents and slowing the game down or placing his votes tactically.

The reason he is hard to read is his gimmick way of talking has a few layers of indirection. He does this to make himself harder to read. But his agenda is usually pretty obvious once you read past that.

I have a gimmick way of talking?
What's my gimmick?
...I just type like I talk...

Like here he has spent half the game arguing whether people can meta read him or not, instead of solving the game.

This is objectively not true - I have spent about, two posts arguing this. And I wasn't even really arguing this because no one has claimed the opposite (as Creature pretty clearly has backpeddaled from the position and half cowered away from explaining his logic)

I did spend a LOT of posts arguing with LUV that I should be allowed to question someone claiming they can meta read me - isn't that different than what you're claiming I'm doing here? Or are you calling my take on reality a lie here? Or do you consider even if I'm right your claimed tell still holds water?

So this is why they say you should never meet your heroes

Man I said this about Thor but goddamn it applies to Majiffy too

this is the stuff of MS legend? This steaming pile of dumb or scum?

You're talking a lot of trash for someone who hasn't seen many flips - are we getting into a wager for read accuracy here, or do you have some other goal in mind?

[Thor665]

I mean seeing how I explained IN THREAD how another mislynch in B can lose us the game even with perfect lynches from then on I'm pretty sure I automatically win any 'accuracy fight' you want to have thor "I'm an extremist" mcthorson

Pretty sure we will need to go deep regardless Checky Checkface, so all you're doing is avoiding the gamble in order to "mine" for info in a setup where scum aren't actually particularly informed.

And I'm okay with that, and I'm fine with the plan.
But don't try to tell me it's super brilliant compared to just biting the bullet either.

I have a gimmick way of talking?
What's my gimmick?
...I just type like I talk...

Well, you definitely have gimmick
Don't you see?
or is this how you talk all the time?

I lean on the former.

So you're saying my "gimmick" of formatting my posts makes them hard to read?

Bollocks.

Vote: Mikan

you aware that Mikan is not in game anymore?

Nope, I'd forgotten.

Vote: Ramicus

[Thor665]

If we compare the lists from the 2 analyses, there are no names in common. Unless, that is, we consider the unfiltered versions. In that case, we are left with only Transcend. However, I'm not ready to go down that rabbit hole, as I think he's actually town here.

Hey guys, here are these sets of random observations I'm going to post and then ignore and just vote strategically.

Hey guys, I'll complain about VCA type analysis and demand people go with more feeling based reactions, then when someone does exactly this I'll complain about that too

Also a lot of people ITT can't read we are wagoning Ginngie not Ramcius or Desperado

I think you're the one who can't read, because the vote count appears to show we are wagoning Ramicus

[Thor665]

VOTE: Ramicus

[Thor665]

you might be, but "We" aren't

"We" are on Ramicus more than Ginggie, so...

[Thor665]

VOTE: Ramcius

Won't be home tonight and probably most of tomorrow. I'll catch up when I can

Thor I missed something you asked me earlier if you could find it for me that'd be great ty

I challenged your Elli read and asked about your Snowman read - we're opposite on both.

[Thor665]

Momo is the only non-voter on v/la.
I'd really like to see Snarky and LUV weigh in on a wagon preference here.

[Thor665]

As an alternate thought - your reads could just be really bad.
In a game with scum limited knowledge you're sitting around proclaiming a wagon to be massively scum driven.
Seriously - you're being blind or are scummy as hell.

[Thor665]

Why are people town reading des? he is not being the abrasive in your face des I know him to be when he is town, and he is not scum reading me like he does when he is town.

I've lynched softie Des to less than brilliant results in the past.
So I say 'meh'.

[Thor665]

Why are people town reading des? he is not being the abrasive in your face des I know him to be when he is town, and he is not scum reading me like he does when he is town.

I've lynched softie Des to less than brilliant results in the past.
So I say 'meh'.

Link?

You still haven't done the research on the last thing you made a stink about.
So by this stage I'm intending to just make more and more outlandish claims to see if you ever do

[Thor665]

do you ever use the phrase 'ruin game' thor

I might, but if I do it must be rare.

[Thor665]

VOTE: rach

[Thor665]

Ginngie and Rach's exchange makes me put Ginngie as a town read.

@Ram - yes, I'm scum reading your slot for Ali's play, I fail to see the issue there.

[Thor665]

Ginngie and Rach's exchange makes me put Ginngie as a town read.

@Ram - yes, I'm scum reading your slot for Ali's play, I fail to see the issue there.

Well, i'm town, but you scum probably, so yes, no issue i guess, carry on

I will take that as cowardly admittance that your core "complaint" about my push on you is meaningless and that you were just trying to act like my push was weak, when you recognize it is valid.
Feel free to explain how I'm wrong if you can.

[Thor665]

Valid? Yes, you are free accuse anyone you like for any reason you like, but i don't have agree with scumread on me, that's NAI. But that doesn't mean you are right. How many times have you played with town Ali? Cause from my personal experience he get scumread often.

I'm just defending from your crass and meaningless case dismissal of me, that you know you did, and now you're playing word games to avoid admitting.

I've played with Alisae quite a number of times.
I actually would suggest that as long as you have people who know how to read Alisae, then town reads are usually what you get.
I don't see that happening here.

What's your experience with Alisae and do you think their play was towny?

[Thor665]

In pretty much every game Ali got scumread, so either you have different experience somehow or you feel like you are very good at reading him. That comes from simple fact, you locked on read, you don't think "Ali is scumread most of time, so i will see what his replacement will tell", no, you just ignored me.'

Considering how you appear to know how often Alisae is scumread - did you check into, say, my games with her?

Now for the case, can you explain how i can know why Ali scumread people, why Ali townread other people? Or why he changed his read, when he did as momo case on me goes? Sorry, but Ali didn't left notes for me

I don't think you can know those things - but you don't need to know them to answer whether you think her play is townish or not.

Thor remembers mislynching softie Desp

Desp doesn't remember/can't find being softie mislynched by thor.

i stopped working on it cuz bored

but Thor lmao

like help us

If you come wrangle the background for this movie for a few days, give me the paycheck, and let me catch up on sleep and then do it - sure.
Otherwise, not so much.

[Thor665]

That seems super normal to me.

Like, I can remember I've eaten steak, ice cream, and churros.
But I would have a really hard time telling you which day of the week I last ate each of those items.
I've got a lot of games, they blur a lot.
If it doesn't do that for you - awesome for you. It very much does it for me.

[Thor665]

you joking, right? In what world i would say his play wasn't townish? That's straight up gamethrowing as any alignment, on top of that, he used gimmick and i haven't read anything past page 10 till i replaced in

The raw amount of double speak here curls my toes so much I'm tickled by the idea of lynching you.
The LUV scum case via posting just totally sold me on that slot's need to die also.

[Thor665]

Also, frankly, I think I'm town reading Ginngie.
Maybe it's just that the avatar looks so cute mixed with Elli's but, I'm not feeling the issues others appear to with that slot. It feels good.

[Thor665]

@thor

whats your read on Desp/Von

I disagree with pretty much all the Desp attacks except for Bulba's which...sounds legit, but I equally have reservations that it *is* legit since I don't think scum Desp would be that dumb.
I've come out against the wagon already and generally still hold that view.
I'd rather not see him lynched mostly because the wagon lacks internal unity, and thus feels lazy and hard to assign accountability and assessment to.

I'm fine with the anti-Von energy but see no reason to bother endorsing the wagon for the same reasons I have no issue with the wagon. it's a push on emptiness - I think that's perfectly valid play, but I also see no reason to endorse it over a wagon with a case on it.
Like, say, Ram. Who continues to be dodgy and is refusing to engage with me honestly despite repeated chances being offered.
What do you think of my attempts to engage Ram and his repeated twisting away from it?

[Thor665]

I felt at some point that you were putting words in his mouth.
I feel in general you are talking past each other.
I don't think Ram has avoided engaging with you.

1. No - I'm not. There is a marked difference between 'putting words in someone's mouth' and 'offering my opinion on what you're saying'. I'm being very clear when I do the latter, and I've not been doing the former at all.
2. Sure - but why?
3. Yet you immediately follow with admitting he, on at least one occasion, kinda did...

The only thing Ram didn't (directly) answer is if he thinks Ali was town, which I agree is somewhat weird, but not sure if I'm convinced by this given your reputation of making people trip in their own words regardless of your alignment.

So because I have a reputation of catching people in their own mistakes you're not sure it's a mistake?
Wouldn't that just make it an obvious mistake, and the only question is whether it's scummy or not?

@Thor. Can you ask Ram simple / direct questions without assuming what he is trying to do.

I think I'm already doing exactly that; let's look at a few of my questions, shall we?

Ginngie and Rach's exchange makes me put Ginngie as a town read.

@Ram -

yes, I'm scum reading your slot for Ali's play, I fail to see the issue there

.

I will take that as cowardly admittance that your core "complaint" about my push on you is meaningless and that you were just trying to act like my push was weak, when you recognize it is valid.

Feel free to explain how I'm wrong if you can

.

What's your experience with Alisae and do you think their play was towny?

Considering how you appear to know how often Alisae is scumread - did you check into, say, my games with her?

Those are all very direct, and I've gotten mush mouth for;
Every.
Single.
One.

Why?

Also why did you think Ali was scum and what do you think about my replace out explanation for them being town. How is this different from BlackVoid's replace out in our previous game together.

I found Ali scum for a number of reasons, but would generally sum it up as Ali (who has a lot of experience) claiming (for no apparent reason) that only scum would push strongly on a weak tell.
Like, she knows that's BS, basically admitted it was BS, yet acted as if it was sweet smelling scumhunting.
That' scummy.

There are a large number of differences between the two replace outs, and that you are acting like they're remotely equal level replace outs makes me squint (I'd love to see you expand on this as an idea you believe in if you can). My very short answer is this; Ali is easy to read when she gets emotional - she chose to escape the game before getting emotional even though she is aware that;
1. People who know how to read her do this.
2. That she is easy to read when this happens.

Which wincon does that seem more likely to support? I'll even agree she could have done it as town, but it also looks potentially strategic, and even if not strategic she also left long before hitting her usual emotional levels that are used to read her which makes me question the level of emotion she actually hit. I know she didn't hit her town level, which means I also know the emotion wasn't as high as you appear to think it was.

[Thor665]

@Toto

Let me even give my version of the discussion between Ram and I - and you tell me how you think it's a conversation with a town Ram and/or show me where I'm misrepresenting what was said;

Thor: Ali slot is scum
Ram: Thor's case is BS because it's based on Ali's play and not my play. Look, he even voted me by voting the previous slot holder!!!
Thor: Yeah, that's true - how is that an issue?
Ram: I'm town!
Thor: What's that have to do with having an issue with me voting due to Ali as opposed to voting due to you?
Ram: Nothing, what you did was valid.
Thor: Then why did you complain about it to attack my vote as though my vote were bad or scummy in any way at all?
Ram: ...
Thor

[Thor665]

Ram: Nothing, what you did was valid.

citation plz

Lern2red

viewtopic.php?p=9800501#p9800501

[Thor665]

I think they are similar in the sense that they are both triggered by frustration towards the state of the game which they perceived to be bad for town and there was nothing they could do to change it. In the case of Alisae she was being scumread and probably felt it was underserved, or for bad reasons, as they were trying hard to scumhunt and play the game and felt they were playing as obvtown (they were).

I will agree they are both replace outs citing frustration (which puts them into about 50% of replace outs, as the others cite availability).
But how exactly do you see them lining up after that broad stroke delineation?
Because this is the bare minimum of describing a frustration replace out. And they're not 100% town motivated.

I mean, let's look at the terrible pressure she was under...it wasn't much (unlike the other game).
It was also clearly described (unlike the other game).
It was also possible for her to debate these points, but she opted not to (unlike the other game).
Communication was hard shut down (unlike the other game).
And it happened very early, during a stage where it made sense for people to suspect her (unlike the other game).

But you see all of that as meaningless and the replace out generically townish?
Do you see 100% of frustration replace outs as townish?
Because I saw a scum one, like, just last month. It cited poor town play as the reason. It built up during the game. They happen all the time.
How do you define them as different/disagree with my above?
Because, obviously and objectively they happen, and they cite identical reasons - so you either need to be able to tell me how you tell them apart or you need to be able to admit they're non-alignment indicative. I'm fine with you picking either option or coming up with a third track that I don't see here and describing it to me so I can understand it - but blanket calling them town with no analysis is super empty, yeah?

There is also evidence this sentiment is not something that has started on this game but they have expressed frustration against the site for a while now.

That supports those claiming lack of alignment revelation, which is the reverse of your position - yeah?

Also, as we continue this discussion, I note you didn't address my question as to *why* Ram and I are talking past each other (because I think it's pretty clearly all from his end. Which should beg a question, yeah?) Or how he's continuing to try to hide behind Alisae's play and denigrate the position of attacking Alisae's play at the same time.

[Thor665]

Yes, we have, Thor: "I scumread Ali", Me: "Why you don't try read me? Ali isn't here anymore to defend himself and i can't talk for him" and we are stuck here

Within the last 48 hours I've made some direct and specific points about how Ram is playing - you're not dealing with those and are still acting like it's impossible to discuss the case, which just appears to be a new misdirection defense attempt on your part, quite frankly.

[Thor665]

Yes, we have, Thor: "I scumread Ali", Me: "Why you don't try read me? Ali isn't here anymore to defend himself and i can't talk for him" and we are stuck here

Within the last 48 hours I've made some direct and specific points about how Ram is playing - you're not dealing with those and are still acting like it's impossible to discuss the case, which just appears to be a new misdirection defense attempt on your part, quite frankly.

I will tell you 1 more time - i'm not discussing Ali actions, i haven't read from page 11 to like page 60, also i can't make objective read on my pred plays, because i share same rolecard, why you not try discuss with people, who were townreading him instead?

You're quoting me asking you to address the points I raised against your actions with a complaint that you can't defend against Ali's actions.

[Thor665]

Well, as I've already said (and, frankly Bulb is kinda saying above also) multiple of us get the feeling you're hiding behind the Alisae defense.
For me specifically I'd note that you straight up attacked my case on you, and when called out on the why you literally had no reason to deflect the case, but yet you're being very dodgy in avoiding wanting to admit that I'm allowed to, and quite possibly have perfectly valid reasons to have been and to have continued attacking your slot due to Alisae's actions.
You've also ducked debating with me about Alisae's meta - like when I explicitly asked you if you'd looked up games involving both her and I - and instead hid behind a very generic and empty "aw, she's always suspected" (which really just looks like an empty handwave that anything she did should be ignored)
Finally you've devolved to this oddball position of not having read half the game because, apparently, Creature told you to or something - which is meaningless noise that has nothing to do with anything, and you certainly could have at least looked at Bulb, or Majiffy's, or my own case against Alisae via a very mild ISO dive to assess which, if any, looked reasonable to you instead of doing the empty hand wave defense you're opting for to dismiss it all over.

Would you like to discuss how this defense from you is scummy and terrible as I've described here?
Or you could do the one Bulba did in spoiler above?
Or both?

[Thor665]

I mean, heck, while we're at it - how do you feel about Toto's defense of you and the discussion he's having with me?
How do you feel about the counterwagons surrounding your wagon?

You're sitting around not doing much of anything right now besides complaining about Alisae attacks while stating nothing can be done with them.

[Thor665]

I'd also note that I literally just got done listing fo rToto a series of questions I feel you ducked and dodged me over (I had a list with the questions in bold)
You could always go and quote your clear answers to those questions to showcase how I'm lying, or provide clear answers now to dismantle my stated issue.
That's something you could be doing.

[Thor665]

And to be fair, I'm off the Ram wagon giving him room to breath, since he seems to imply that's what's holding him up. I've yet to see anything that's impressed me.

Did he claim that?
Because it's not like he's spending time really addressing attacks on him either.
He's had multiple players defending him for some time (also based off Alisae's play as far as I can tell - but he has no issue with that ) so he should have at least been addressing or noting them also.
I always get curled toes when people don't acknowledge other players defending them.

[Thor665]

I agree he's not producing much, I only really have an issue with that if he's using all the time he's spending defending himself as an excuse for said poor production - because that's obvious hoo-hah.
It's not like he's alone in not producing much (heck, I'd toss myself in that category) so I have less issue with that in a broad spectrum look at this game.

[Thor665]

@Ram - all I see in that post is a giant list of excuses for you not to comment on anything.

[Thor665]

@Ram - all I see in that post is a giant list of excuses for you not to comment on anything.

if everything you want to talk is Ali, then yes, have a nice day

I gave a long list of non Alisae issues and you basically weaved around those also.
Also, quite frankly, it *is* valid to talk about Alisae - you can't offer insight from within her own head, but that is not a valid excuse to refuse to discuss the slot totally.
That's a cheap dodge.

[Thor665]

You got it wrong, Creature was only person telling me i should read thread, no one else gave a Smurf about if i read or not.

Okay, and? That doesn't mean that YOU need to not give a hang. Do you give a hang? Do you think you owe it to yourself to read or understand any of that? Also, if you didn't read it - why did you attack people for scumreading Alisae? You literally are claiming to have no idea if they were being pro town or pro scum yet attacked anyway and are now using no one asking you to read up on the game as an excuse to cover up your scummy actions.

I'm not hiding, i'm ignoring Ali content, it doesn't matter, if i say "yes, Ali was scummy" or "Ali was towny", i can't be objective on this matter, i'm in his slot, i know his alignment/role.

By that logic no one could ever assess someone being scum or town for attacking their own slot - which I know is objectively untrue. It's very easy to assess that - in fact I would personally argue it's easier than assessing them interacting with a slot you *don't* know the alignment of. This is just another excuse to avoid interactions or opinions.

Next, i won't look games, i'm not judging your ability read Ali, as you nicely put Bulb in, he pointed out that you rely on other people to read Ali, so i use my personal experience on how other people are judging his play. I gave recent game example to Majiffy - Fortnight, i was TRing Ali, majority didn't and lynched him.

You're the one who started up the Alisae meta conversation with me - why bring that up and then refuse to discuss her meta? That's yet another scummy dodge.

I'm not doing anything? I try get people on Von wagon and save Desp

Yeah, I don't think you're doing much. I'm willing to agree you're vaguely batting at the Desp wagon - if that's the extent of the bar for 'doing something' then I have no idea why you're suggesting Von isn't doing things. Why do you suspect Von again? It's the lurk and not doing 'enough' things, right? Pot kettle, yeah?

As for other people defending me, it's their business, i didn't asked anyone to defend me, i won't stop them either. If someone have different read from you, it's your business to convince them, not mine.

So you're not allowed to offer an opinion on that either? Scummy dodge, dodging scummily. Called out on it? Better dodge again and claim I can't discuss that because...well, no actual reason, just generically you can't comment on it apparently.
That's BS - you're scum.

[Thor665]

the more Thor speaks the more okay I am with the ram wagon again

Sheep me, I am feeling really good about this one now.
He's actively ducking at this stage.

[Thor665]

@Ram - all I see in that post is a giant list of excuses for you not to comment on anything.

if everything you want to talk is Ali, then yes, have a nice day

I gave a long list of non Alisae issues and you basically weaved around those also.
Also, quite frankly, it *is* valid to talk about Alisae - you can't offer insight from within her own head, but that is not a valid excuse to refuse to discuss the slot totally.
That's a cheap dodge.

Ok, let's talk, you say i do nothing, but what about other 5 ppl in group C? Desp, Trans, Rach, Von and Gingie? What they are doing to lynch scum so close to EoD?

P-edit: Gingie, when you show your towniness as promised?

I have openly stated that I don't find you doing nothing to be alignment indicative.

So...I don't get the point of this.

I *HAVE* said that you actively ducking stuff is alignment indicative and have called that scummy.
Want to explain to me how the others are actively ducking and offering excuses to avoid offering opinions?

[Thor665]

Because the only valid argument for the above question I see is probably Desp.
And you town read Desp.

[Thor665]

I agree he's not producing much, I only really have an issue with that if he's using all the time he's spending defending himself as an excuse for said poor production - because that's obvious hoo-hah.

It's not like he's alone in not producing much (heck, I'd toss myself in that category) so I have less issue with that in a broad spectrum look at this game.

Lern2red noob.

[Thor665]

Good plan, avoid discussing how you awkward straw manned me.
Avoid discussing my response to your question.
Instead tell a joke. Good joke. Everybody laugh. Roll on snare drum. Curtains.

[Thor665]

Good plan, avoid discussing how you awkward straw manned me.
Avoid discussing my response to your question.
Instead tell a joke. Good joke. Everybody laugh. Roll on snare drum. Curtains.

If you try insult me, least i can do is to tell you a joke, i think this is right, also it shows how much i care about your case at this point

You do care about my vote - it's why you keep trying to deflect and/or avoid actually addressing me about it.

[Thor665]

Thor’s vote in #310; I didn’t see an ‘odd groundswell’ would like Thor to clarify excitement reasons.

What part aren't you getting?
Because, objectively the votes exist and are there - so if you're disagreeing with 'groundswell' your disagreement is one of amount of votes - in which case this is already a dumb conversation that will go nowhere.
Do you disagree on the 'odd' part?

VOTE: Group A

[Thor665]

REGALE ME OH PEA-BRAINED ONE OF THE SCENARIOS I'M NOT ACCOUNTING FOR THAT MAKES C ANYTHING OTHER THAN A MORON'S LYNCH

If we mislynch

[Thor665]

VOTE: Group A

Is this a hardclaim of having a brain thor?

I have already discussed with you my thoughts on the lynch plan back on Day 2 and my vote remains in line with what I claimed as functional strategy then.
So if this is a hardclaim - it's a hardclaim of you not having a memory.

[Thor665]

REGALE ME OH PEA-BRAINED ONE OF THE SCENARIOS I'M NOT ACCOUNTING FOR THAT MAKES C ANYTHING OTHER THAN A MORON'S LYNCH

If we mislynch

Wat I don't follow. Mislynch in A means they kill in A what's the problem?

I was describing how a lynch in C could be helpful, not a lynch in A.

You were for the Smurf it yolo school of group picking right?

No.

Nah. Scum's Snarky and someone else. Likely Momo.

I like this theory.

His lynch was resisted by the ugly slots such as Majiffy and Thor.

How did I (or Majiffy) oppose the Von wagon exactly?
Because you're talking out of your butt.

[Thor665]

The group B stuff is a little funny because both players are arguing a fact while also arguing a derp at the same time, making it an odd sort of argument.

@Creature - yeah, lynching in B is fine this phase, the only potential negative with 1/2 is a rather potent Mafia PR (which is also potentially an issue with 2/1). The "inevitable" commentary is objectively silly though - there are multiple avenues to put off the B question till people feel more comfortable/informed about it. So stop derping.

@Ginggie - Just because there's actually no particular win in going into B over any other group outside of hoping to get PR info inside of B does not make B inherently a bad decision. For starters, 1/2 is not a town loss - go read the scum wincon and stop derping.

in other news;

V/LA - Christmas y'all, till 12/26

Or, because apparently this can be invisible nowadays

VOTE: V/LA - Christmas y'all, till 12/26

I personally still think A makes the most sense, but to be perfectly frank, as I discussed in the ancient times of Day 2 and Checkers forgot - I am fine with a lynch in any group at the moment, though I actually think it's beneficial to not combine in the ICs until after we do 2 lynches in A and another in B - but, hey, I also don't see it as tragic.

[Thor665]

I'd be willing to lynch any of them besides Majiffy, and it's not that I town read him, I just want him to live till the game is small enough we can sort of interact, get paranoid at each other, and set up a 1v1

Oh god you're scum and want me to townread you in endgame aren't you

I like that traitor crumb.

How is that a traitor crumb exactly?
I mean, I can see he's saying the word scum, but beyond that...?

[Thor665]

I'm trying to, but no one wants to vote group B with me.

Talk to me about that crumb and maybe I will.

Why did group C not get merged into A and B

Because there's still 1 scum in C.

[Thor665]

Agreed, that would be a silly conversation.

However, there is benefit to convincing me that Majiffy is scum trying to crumb to me.
Because then at least I could be trapped into bussing my buddy for you, right?

[Thor665]

At the very least it's a chance to expound on your theory and maybe convince onlookers to vote B now and sheep you.

[Thor665]

Or you could do a version of what you were complaining about Gingiie doing yesterday - and not expand on reads.

[Thor665]

It depends on you being scum though.

No - because Majiffy could be scum who thinks I'm scum.

[Thor665]

We're both in B - it's impossible for us to be scum together and know it.

[Thor665]

Or does your theory require we know it, and thus I've already crushed your crumb theory?

[Thor665]

So....short answer, I have already destroyed your theory.

[Thor665]

I thought I had been making a funny.

Let's lynch A for the moment, okay?

[Thor665]

Or, I dunno, maybe I'm dumb - can you show me where it says the Traitor's know their teammates?
I'm thinking they don't - it would change how I hunt if they do - but I think they don't.

[Thor665]

Yes, I agree with that.

[Thor665]

Just prove me wrong on the "know it" part of 4287 and I'll at least stop making fun of your non-crumb.

[Thor665]

@Mod I am uncertain which mafia members know the identities of which other mafia members. Could you please clarify post-haste?

Goons only know who each other are. Traitors do not know who the Traitors are and do not know who the Goons are.

Ugh, oh right.

I'd pretend to act excited that this might affect your reads in any way, shape, or form, but I've played with you before

A remains a better choice.

[Thor665]

Actually we don't need to straight out lynch Thor, this day is just about to start.

That should make everyone rushing to the B group stop and use their brains.
Not that I expect it to happen, but if you all want to be strongarmed into a group selection that's on you.

A remains the better group for town to lynch in.

[Thor665]

Actually we don't need to straight out lynch Thor, this day is just about to start.

That should make everyone rushing to the B group stop and use their brains.
Not that I expect it to happen, but if you all want to be strongarmed into a group selection that's on you.

A remains the better group for town to lynch in.

Because we might ML in A?

Anyway, there is very good rule for situations like this - don't trust caught scum

We might lynch correctly in A too - and we're obligated to lynch there eventually, so...?

I'm gonna laugh if Creature faked a guilty like me

It isn't funny.

[Thor665]

eventually, yes, but at this point we have no clear reads in A, and we get free shot in B and C for 2 next day phases, so we in no rush getting A

If your argument is you have no reads in a group then I would suggest you have issues in the concept of 'how to play' rather than 'how to play this setup correctly.

Also, you don't have a free shot in C at the moment unless your argument is that you're gunning for a mislynch there.

[Thor665]

eventually, yes, but at this point we have no clear reads in A, and we get free shot in B and C for 2 next day phases, so we in no rush getting A

If your argument is you have no reads in a group then I would suggest you have issues in the concept of 'how to play' rather than 'how to play this setup correctly.

Also, you don't have a free shot in C at the moment unless your argument is that you're gunning for a mislynch there.

Oh, i have reads, but what i mean is that we don't have reads as a whole group, or people aren't telling their reads in A as they do with B and C

as for free shot, i mean we can lynch and not lose on spot, this will give us time to take better look at A too

So your complaint about not wanting to lynch in A is that people haven't been obligated to offer some solid reads in A?

Want a hint on how to get them to offer reads?
Make the lynch in A.
Derpy dee.

[Thor665]

Town did form a coalition of like minded people fairly early who had generally correct reads - that's pretty much always a death knell for scum.