Micro 792: Three in One (Day 6)

[Mathdino]

Declaring intent to NEVER HAMMER THIS DEAR GOD WHY ARE WE D1 LYNCHING GAMMA EMERALD

[Mathdino]

Math is town something just clicked. Gamma is a bad wagon. The worst vote is actually the first

i have no idea what reasons this post was made with

but yes gamma is a bad wagon yes yes

[Mathdino]

If NSG is scum, we're in a situation where we likely have one PR alive after NSG forces a counterclaim.

So yeah Red's idea isn't THAT bad.

Although obviously it would be better to lynch her scumpartner straight up. Lowkey think anyone could be the partner other than Red/Smart.

[Mathdino]

I think they have a PL partner because their first posts were about being absolutely opposite to PL'ing

okay yeah this is the best point i've ever seen made by red

NSG/N_M or NSG/Bambi confirmed

[Mathdino]

i welcome you to go into her post history and find out if she has a generally anti-PL stance

like she can correct me if i'm wrong but i haven't seen that kind of thing from her

[Mathdino]

i mean there's also the fact that both bambi and N_M are unwilling to vote her and haven't really done anything to indicate that they're not partners

i would question that idea more if there was

any interaction

at all

[Mathdino]

A search for the word "policy" in her entire MS post history.

She has:
- Opposed a policy lynch in MyLo (go figure)
- Opposed a policy lynch on someone she's townreading (I do that too so)
- Questioned someone trying to policy lynch Bambi for playing like a survivor when Bambi-scum had not, in that game, played like a survivor
- Opposed a policy lynch in MyLo

[Mathdino]

Who said I'm unwilling to vote NSG?

What part of "I'll Lynch North if Dino is confirmed town" didn't also suggest that?

I'm looking for every option other then having you decide shit again. NotMaf, who do you think is more likely scum, Gamma or North?

both of you have previously stated a theoretical willingness to vote scumbuddies without actually ever doing so

obviously if you're town, then yeah, i trust that you're willing to vote NSG

but since you haven't, i can't rule you out as potential scumbuddies

[Mathdino]

i welcome you to go into her post history and find out if she has a generally anti-PL stance

like she can correct me if i'm wrong but i haven't seen that kind of thing from her

lie.

"policy lynches are scum garbage" ring a bell?

i actually forgot to check your alt history

but i accept your argument that your scumbuddy is not necessarily N_M or Bambi

[Mathdino]

but i accept your argument that your scumbuddy is not necessarily N_M or Bambi

Stop speaking to me like this.

no i'm serious

the only value in red pointing out that you were anti-policy lynch was to propose a NSG/N_M or NSG/Bambi scumteam

seeing as you've shown that you are generally anti-policy lynch, that gamesolve is now null

[Mathdino]

okay well

say we're both town and this is one of our collectively worst towngames ever

who's scum in that scenario

[Mathdino]

Votecount 1.9

Gamma Emerald

(3): Not_Mafia, PenguinPower, Bambietta Basterbine

northsidegal

(2): Mathdino, Red Flavor

Mathdino

(1): northsidegal

Not_Mafia

(1): CheekyTeeky

PenguinPower

(1): Gamma Emerald

Not Voting

(1): Something_Smart

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to achieve a lynch.

Deadline in (expired on 2018-03-26 09:00:00)

nice try

[Mathdino]

wow it's not like the gamma wagon has scum on it regardless of NSG's alignment

[Mathdino]

i'm not taking a 1/3 shot to catch scum

honestly i wouldn't be totally surprised if you were scum but the gamma wagon is just annoying me right now because it's clearly a counter to NSG

[Mathdino]

That only works if you think I'm scum with red (crazy cuz obvtown) or penguin (understandable position)

Also doesn't fit the usual idea of counterwagon, since I was the one who started the NSG wagon in the first place

[Mathdino]

Also if either of those things were true, Gamma would be the correct counterwagon to me, not NSG

[Mathdino]

We should really really be getting claims here soon

Lynchpool is still NSG nm bambi

[Mathdino]

it just today occurred to me that you and i were in fact scum together in anything upick

and you totally lied to me in be yourself

if you're town i'm going to say you gotta get good at townhunting

i've left myself open basically all day to being convinced out of my NSG tunnel

and the only argument so far has been gamma's "WELL SHE DIDNT JUMP ON MY WAGON SOOO"

so like i said, god help me if this NSG's first towngame in which literally no one townread her

[Mathdino]

why would scum-NSG, observing that your reads almost entirely consist of "scum is the people scumreading me, town is the people townreading me"

decide to go and piss you off and field another vote on her wagon

[Mathdino]

mayhaps my perception of you as "easy to get townread by" has been wrong

[Mathdino]

i should probably round out my reads with a metadive on penguin while we pass the time

[Mathdino]

ok all the good meta is like a year old

his scumgame looks a lot like creature's scumgames lol

[Mathdino]

That was hammer, yeah.

[Mathdino]

Confused why N_M would hammer NSG but not me.

[Mathdino]

But I've been campaigning for lynching you :/

[Mathdino]

You think N_M would scumhammer his buddy before she gets a chance to draw ccs?

[Mathdino]

You think N_M would scumhammer his buddy before she gets a chance to draw ccs?

Your insane bias on NSG is mind blowing even if you're right.

Just trying to figure out what you're saying.

Like if NSG is town, that doesn't at all explain why N_M lolhammers her but not me.

[Mathdino]

You think N_M would scumhammer his buddy before she gets a chance to draw ccs?

Your insane bias on NSG is mind blowing even if you're right.

Just trying to figure out what you're saying.

Like if NSG is town, that doesn't at all explain why N_M lolhammers her but not me.

Oh really? Who have we been stating is our first suspect if NSG flips town?

Why would he lynch a player doing all the hard scum work for him?

You're the only one who's been saying I'm the prime suspect on NSG-town. I've already gone over how NSG townflip clears me IMO.

Telling me that NSG townflip tells me N_M is scum with me is useless and obviously doesn't answer my question.

[Mathdino]

Gamma thought this was TvT, and Bambi kept telling me and NSG to back off and focus on Gamma. Red and N_M didn't comment on NSG townflip, and the fact that Smart has ignored the two of us implies he thinks this is TvT (correct me if I'm wrong).

[Mathdino]

If you were sure it wasn't TvT, why didn't you vote between us when it was basically a 50/50 coinflip?

[Mathdino]

I mean i was pretty sure it wasn't tvt until that scumhammer

To me NSG town clearly means Not_Mafia scum

I can't shake the paranoia that that was actually a coordinated quickhammer

I just hope one of the 3 of us gets cleared tomorrow

[Mathdino]

On the other hand NSG has been site active all day so I feel like she's actively trying not to give anything away

[Mathdino]

I was cop with inno on NM

Had you have claimed my vote would have most likely been on Bambi as well, but ces't la vie, we won anyway
Also Math gets his wish of Jay not being in the next game I guess

yeah but does it matter if NSG isn't in next game

NSG functions as my confirmed townie when she's around, this makes the game that much harder

[Mathdino]

also my 2 scumreads going into the night were cheekyteeky and penguinpower

so i appear to have the opposite problem as jay

anyone i'm scumreading is either scum, VI, or a power role

[Mathdino]

also REDFLAVOR MVP

made 3 votes post-RVS, 2 of them on scum

i've never seen red as town before but i was fucking impressed

called the scumteam before any of us did

[Mathdino]

I was cop with inno on NM

You know the game isn't actually over, and that Bambi could be pissed off town screwing with us...right?

Oh fuck I retracr just in case

also this was fantastic

literally planning for this exact scenario

[Mathdino]

Roleblocker - hoping to all hell the setup was Jailkeeper and Doctor, but there being a Cop? Yeah, I would have lost.

jailkeeper/doctor is notoriously townsided

i have seen the kill stopped 3 times over with JK/doc

cop/doctor is pretty good for town if the mafia doesn't immediately find the doc and block them N1

so well done on that

granted, i would've been wrong had i been alive in the morning with the amazing lynch order of

CT or PP --> N_M --> Bambi

but still, you got me killed gj

[Mathdino]

ah yeah RC pulled that

the only scenario in which scum would claim tracker though is double mafia goon

[Mathdino]

Wow everyone thought it was me

the scumhammer on your buddy reminded me too much of jester nightless tbh

i really wanna see the scum PT tbh

[Mathdino]

fucking lol

[Mathdino]

Checklist for L-1: Is Not_Mafia on wagon?

VOTE: Penguin

[Mathdino]

Wouldn't have worked though, that was outright a bad strategy

Claiming tracker only works if you have 2 goons

[Mathdino]

I was all for the bulletproof strategy but I don't really see the benefits of the tracker strategy yet. Don't really want to claim anything for now.

[Mathdino]

You were literally the one offering the highest effort pushback lol

And yeah it's another case of "PR or scum?" that befalls all my reads

[Mathdino]

If there's 7 of us now and we mislynch today thats LYLO tomorrow right? Math you must be scum for throwing caution to the wind.

VOTE: Math

can't tell if RVS

the only players off-wagon were you and gamma

a quickhammer would be a scumclaim from both of you

all i care about is not_mafia not_hammering

given that you guys are not_not_mafia not_hammering i see my trust was well placed

yo gamma do you have reads

[Mathdino]

what if i put a cannon to your cranium

would you be able to force reads

[Mathdino]

okay let's play a better game

say you were scum and i was all "ey dude i'm fukin vigging u if u don't come up with reads"

what reads would you fake

[Mathdino]

This Math push seems tactical

you're not wrong

[Mathdino]

i'm 90% sure that had to do with me

tbh that's a major downer

reality of NSG/jay not being ingame when i signed up for the playerlist
is kinda sinking in

although i do like repeated playerlists, which is a townsided mechanic (although probably cancelled out by daytalk tbh)

[Mathdino]

60% chance double no lynch results in living cop and no guarantee of having enough to solve

40% chance it just puts us in LyLo with 13% chance of winning

i'm good thanks

so on the one hand, red is doing the "nuanced posting" thing again

but on the other hand his bluntness is actually reminding me of polygamist

red explain this post:

I think I want to lynch Gamma today.

His posts are too short, even cautious
Is this why you want to lynch him?

This is weird...why didn't you just ask me why I wanted to lynch him? Why lead in?

I read his iso and 2 worded posts just seemed odd

[Mathdino]

Math, do we lynch gamma emerald

if you think i'm any good at gutreading gamma emerald on like page 2 you're gonna be real disappointed

honestly locking 2 VTs as town is really all we need to solve this setup since we can just lynch everyone else who's not a PR and win

[Mathdino]

gamma strikes me as a bad wagon considering he towntold twice

success is not guaranteed with reading gamma tho

so right now i'm playing dumb or scum with penguin and red

[Mathdino]

I think I want to lynch Gamma today.

His posts are too short, even cautious
Is this why you want to lynch him?

No...it's no different than how he started the last game.

I just gut want to lynch him right now.

VOTE: Gamma

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Ia gree with that gutread, they were really different

like this shit is baffling to me

PP: Let's lynch Gamma.
RF: Why, because his posting is cautious?
PP: No, because he started the game exactly like last game.
RF: I agree, he started the game completely differently *vote Gamma*

like what the fuck is going on here

[Mathdino]

no yeah obviously red and penguin don't make sense

at the same time red is producing more content than penguin

whose point i still don't understand yet

[Mathdino]

no yeah obviously red and penguin don't make sense

at the same time red is producing more content than penguin

whose point i still don't understand yet

Since when do you think in terms of quantity vs quality?

since i have a strong record now of reading redflavor the more he posts

and penguin is near unintelligible to me

red will spew himself one way or the other today

[Mathdino]

i don't know what you're trying to prove to me

my ISO is also full of clutter

and no, i'm calling this content:

The PP wagon went to L-1 within three posts of the day starting... how hard is it to look at who's on it?

Do you think chweky is scum for asking that

I wanted to quicklynch PP
(joke, I wanted to see if anyone would hammer since it would out 2 members of scum team)

Id like to hear more from pp and ge and md

It became L-2 after I voted, if there were immediate hammer after mine it would out 2 scum members

No, I think you are town and I think math thought same thing with me while voting

His posts are too short, even cautious
Is this why you want to lynch him?

I was memeing PP but you never realized that

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Ia gree with that gutread, they were really different

I read his iso and 2 worded posts just seemed odd

If I seem cautious it's because this setup is AIDS for the PRs most likely

Why

Yeah, claiming being cautious of getting pr hunter is opposite of being cautios

Claiming that you are afraid of getting PRhunted is basically claiming that you are a PR. But if you were really cautious of getting PRhunted you would not mention being cautious of getting PRhunted, because saying that you are cautious of getting PRhunted is basically telling scum to kill you.

Yeah, claiming being cautious of getting pr hunter is opposite of being cautios

Yes, aaaaand hypocrisy is a towntell.

Gamma is town GG.

Yeah or that is an excuse for scum to being cautious

Maybe doc should out themselves so cop wont get shot or town will have an ic?

[Mathdino]

you know there's a difference between "dumb content" and "scum-indicative content" right

gun to my head, i'd be townreading him

there's a certain kind of thought process i haven't seen him fake as scum

the waffling is solely from me wondering if his towntells this game are an anomaly and if he's just playing his most advanced scumgame yet

but that's going to be easy as fuck to tell as long as he keeps talking

[Mathdino]

Yep I saw Red as scummy too but don't think Red and Penguin make sense. I'm thinking Red/SS.

VOTE: Red

yeah no this is predatory as fuck

CT assumes i'm greenlighting a red scumread based on previous post when i was more greenlighting penguin read while WTFing at the gamma wagon in general

VOTE: CT

current thought is CT/PP make sense

[Mathdino]

it means that you're literally equating dumb to scum when i know you can do better than that

[Mathdino]

So does that mean you're scum WK'ing town Red or is this a chainsaw?

vote me if you're confident

[Mathdino]

if i told players every single time they towntold then scum-them would waltz past me

i'm paranoid this game, people's reasons for townreading/scumreading people were on full display last game and good scum can use that to their advantage

regardless, i'm not doing a lolcase until everyone's really checked in

tl;dr your case on red is in no way scum-indicative, and you took my post calling out red/penguin as an excuse to call out the townier of the two

[Mathdino]

since i have a strong record now of reading redflavor the more he posts

and penguin is near unintelligible to me

red will spew himself one way or the other today

you're also completely ignoring this

my point is that red is far more than active enough to spew himself as town or scum at some point today

hell, i'd even argue that activity is alignment indicative for him

so why would i pressure red in this situation when i can just ask him "wtf are you thinking"

[Mathdino]

Now I'm looking forward to your argument for why scum Mathdino wouldn't push CheekyTeeky and a townflip still means you're town.

Pedit oh now you're calling him townier than Penguin.

penguin made 2 nullposts and has a read i disagree with

also wat

would me making that argument be scum-indicative for you?

that argument doesn't even apply this game, if town loses this game then i have no chance of winning the whole tournament anyway

[Mathdino]

are you actually even scumreading me...?

[Mathdino]

my misread was because he was a power role

while i'm still recalibrating that whole scumreads = PRs problem

that doesn't mean i should play with my hands tied behind my back just because of the danger of hitting a PR

and i never even said penguin was a PL-able type of player

again, 2 unreadable posts and a read i disagree with

nothing else stands out other than your push here

and it sucks that the wagon died down before he could react to the seriousness of it

[Mathdino]

are you actually even scumreading me...?

I didn't want to as I realised I approached you wrong yesterday but you're so obv scum voting me the way you have today.

all of your pushes yesterday either

- Made some kind of clear sense
or
- Were a piece of some larger theme

here it was

- Mathdino makes a post calling out Red/PP
- CT is like yeah I agree on red *vote red*
- Mathdino says "nah i'll be able to read red easily with his activity levels, penguin is better"
- CT is like "you call these 5 RVS posts content?"
- Mathdino is like "no i call these dozen posts readable content"
- CT is like "yeah it's shit content"

like it seems like your full reasoning for that vote is out on the table

and it just makes no sense to me

you're fully capable of telling the difference between dumb and scum

and not being able to tell that difference was something i remember from BYM

[Mathdino]

I was scum in BYM. Pretty sure that's what he's implying. Funny that he's ok using meta on me today when he purposely didn't use meta to TR me yesterday. Lol EZ lynch. Gamma does make sense as buddy nice spotting.

i didn't have any town meta of you at the time, and only had the experience of having been fooled by you

i now have personal town meta and scum meta

and i think you can be read by burden of proficiency, if by nothing else

[Mathdino]

@penguin: so you're saying gamma started exactly like he did last game and that makes him scum
can you explain that in more than one sentence thx

also the predatory thing is the fact that CT at no point labelled anything in red's ISO as reasonably scum indicative, just was calling it garbage
and leading people on isn't even a factor in red's scumgame

it's lazy, and red is widely known to be an easy mislynch

[Mathdino]

there's also the fact that CT is majorly slipping a "i'm not actually scumreading mathdino" POV

so in this case, CT scumflip is actually what clears me, not CT townflip

[Mathdino]

and i think you can be read by burden of proficiency, if by nothing else

That was always my fear and why I act all over the place/have added extra fluff to give my scum meta a chance. I don't see it here though.

Pedit I never said I wasn't scumreading you? You're officially lock scum. Mathdino is scum. Doubt = Zero!

your playstyle reminds me of thor in a lot of ways, just with the added fluff and holding cards closer to your chest

i don't know if you read the rest of fferyllt's game, but play that i basically can't otherwise read is often easily readable in micros by whether or not you're forced to make dumb pushes by virtue of too many town

in BYM, you were forced to make a dumb push on me, bus your buddy, and then i kinda took over so you didn't have to be responsible for the bad pushes on gamma/UCV

last game your pushes, even when wrong, were complex

in this game you literally made a case on a lynchbait player talking about how shit their content is

and now you're making a push on me for calling it out

so yeah you're the equivalent of thor in that game

[Mathdino]

aggressive, deliberate, tries to put players in a situation in which they spew their own alignment

and can be read off BoP

if i ever have to play "dumb or scum" with them, scum is the correct choice

[Mathdino]

i'm actually good with thor's playstyle, it's really good when he's actually town

also other than the question on how gamma is town, i don't see any questions that i haven't already answered in some form

i'll explain the gamma thing if it actually becomes a point of contention

[Mathdino]

i feel like i've explained that

y'all might be equating predatory to opportunistic

opportunistic is pouncing on a bad push

predatory is when an experienced rhetorically solid player pushes newbtown/lynchbait by using outdated tells

or otherwise puts said players in a position where they falsely spew themselves as scum

[Mathdino]

not to mention thor's hard mathdino push when i called him out for it

it's the same damn tactic

[Mathdino]

Newbie 1856

that was a bit of misrep, he was attacking my slot already, and was attacking my slot for my tracker fakeclaim primarily

so it's not exactly the same in execution, but the fact remains was that was the pivot he made

[Mathdino]

And clarify who MF is?

Summary: Thor is scum with DDS, {Cake, MF, Marah} are newbtown

thor initially pushes MF who was insanely obvious newbtown

then pivots to pushing marah, who was also obvious newbtown

both times the reasons he used were rhetorically solid, but his tells were outdated and as the most experienced IC he knew better

i replaced into marah's slot, fakeclaimed tracker

so he switched to a {DDS, Cake} lynchpool

when i revealed it was a fakeclaim, it became {DDS, Cake, Mathdino}

notably, while nullscumreading his buddy, his trajectory never got around to actually voting said buddy

[Mathdino]

predatory is when an experienced rhetorically solid player pushes newbtown/lynchbait by using outdated tells

You're WhiteKnighting then. Red is likely town.

you do realise hard defending people and voting people on bad wagons on said people is literally my exact scumhunting strategy in every game where i have reason to believe i can read more than 2 players

yet

somehow

here it's WKing

you're using buzzwords to mask actual nuanced pushes my dude

[Mathdino]

Who the fuck else does town me push FYPOV

I'm not claiming NSG level confidence, but CT/PP is a fantastically consistent start here

Red/Gamma bad lynches, Penguin still a scumread but I'm not one to go for the easy lynches

I don't see town winning with you in lylo

[Mathdino]

Town always wins with me in LYLO. Unless I'm scum. Which you're so certain of in such a BS way.

If you're town, your reads have been awful and thus town loses lylo

If you're scum, I don't see myself getting your lynch tomorrow if I'm even still around

And tbh almost everyone kills me as scum in this playerlist so I have no confidence in that either

[Mathdino]

It screams that you're in a position where I have to be removed in order for you to win, yeah

NSGs mistake last game was not being around to push me hard enough

She could have if she tried tho

I think you fundamentally understand that

[Mathdino]

NGL I expected her to flip town like always

Your assumption of my confidence levels when I openly do this to advance the gamestate is
Questionable

[Mathdino]

If you were ever this confident about an incorrect scumread as town I might believe you tbh

But AtE and shout matches are within basically everyone's scumrange

[Mathdino]

I feel like cheeky will scumread math no matter card

What

Guessing he means CT scumreads me I'm this situation regardless of her or my alignment?

I mean i don't disagree

I think CT as town here pushes me

The whole point tho is that if CT were town tho her pushes wouldn't be bad, because there would be actual scum out there to push

Because CT is herself scum, she's forced to make bad pushes

[Mathdino]

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=73171
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=73237&start=1550
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=73520

Look at my ISO, ctrl + F "doubt =" check the alignments of myself and the person I'm scumreading to see how serious I am AS TOWN. It has a 100% accuracy rate D1. D2 is not so great for god knows what reason, 100% fail rate after D1.

OK

So that's really just a good objective argument for flipping you to confirm my alignment, which is something I advocate anyway

[Mathdino]

Will also answer any questions but I don't think i miscommunicated anything here

Like you can't simultaneously argue you're great at d1 reads while arguing youve made bad cases as town and thus my BoP argument is bad

Scumread was originally a "oh let's push here"

Then apparently you assumed it was a hyperconfident read and went fucking balls to the wall on this one

So yeah I'm good with this

[Mathdino]

I'll write up a comparison if anyone actually gives a shit

But there's a difference basically

[Mathdino]

The point is semantic

Mine is just that her pushes last game were very different from her minicase on Red this game

[Mathdino]

Yo can we agree that if CT flips scum and i get killed

That we ignore everything cheeky said after she voted me

Because like this is deterministic, she gets lynched either today or tomorrow

Primary benefit to drawing things out would be faking some associations

[Mathdino]

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=73171
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=73237&start=1550
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=73520

Look at my ISO, ctrl + F "doubt =" check the alignments of myself and the person I'm scumreading to see how serious I am AS TOWN. It has a 100% accuracy rate D1. D2 is not so great for god knows what reason, 100% fail rate after D1.

didn't think it was deterministic until this

like if it's at the point where 100% of your "no doubt" reads flip scum when you're town

i'm inclined to take you at your word on this

objectively, either
A. CT/Math scumteam
B. CT is right on Math
C. CT is wrong on Math and thus has to be scum

[Mathdino]

Yeah let's flip you to see which it is. Your push is worse than mine on Red. You're not being objective at all. Also my worst fear is that you talk your way out of getting lynched tomorrow. You're not this wreckless knowing it's Lylo tomorrow if you're wrong. No idea how noone else can see it. Grrrrrr.

And you are?

I voted you as a countervote to Red scumleaning you on the basis of "Tbh CT is better than this" and you suddenly take it as this hail fucking mary of "Oh Mathdino can't POSSIBLY be this confident when he knows it's LyLo if he's wrong!"

Like, fuck, I've done literally nothing to canvas votes, I never asked for a hammer, I'm leaving my vote here and watching what people do.

Since said vote, you've basically handed me my case. Again, if you can literally do no wrong on your 0% doubt reads, then that means you can't be town.

[Mathdino]

Like who is even my buddy right now?

i'm not answering this one

you're not even trying at this point

AtE works for CT better than cases and logic do tbh

worked on me before

Also my worst fear is that you talk your way out of getting lynched tomorrow.

so much deja vu...

i mean the deja vu i'm getting is seeing CT shout her way from 1:4 to a double mislynch and a win

like that's the problem here, everything she's done this game is by-the-book scumhunting and lashing out

these are by far the easiest things to fake

there's no nuance, or gamesolving agenda

regardless, if anything the benefit we get from things not being nightless is that i get sorted by the nightkill as per fuckin usual

[Mathdino]

here's the difference

Spoiler:

Hi North

VOTE: NSG

Pedit kind of? I like them.

Ok Math/NSG can be town.

VOTE: Something_Smart

NSG back to null :/ SS can be town.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

You literally just said you were sure she's town.

VOTE: Mathdino

Tempted if only for the mental breakdown I'd trigger, but I shant

LOL! I wish you had.

VOTE: Bambi

I like your reads and associations Bambi. Sorry for causing ruckus D:

VOTE: RedFlavor

Ew I just realised I was voting with my strongest scum read.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

NM makes a convincing argument.

VOTE: NorthSideGal

Ok thank you!

VOTE: Not_Mafia

Fine let's get a claim. Math if you're scum I'm going to say I knew it from the start even though I was too pansy to push you.

VOTE: NSG L-1

Can some intent and ask for a claim?

this is every D1 vote

NSG vote: adds early pressure
SS vote: NSG becomes townread, switch to new standard reaction vote
N_M vote: reads change on Smart, swap to new scumread (which is heavily backed up by meta)
Math vote: notices inconsistency in progression, votes to get an explanation
Bambi vote: correctly realises how nonchalant bambi was about me getting potentially hammered
Red vote: reads change on Bambi, scumread on Red

again backed up by meta knowledge

N_M vote: reevaluation, swaps to scumread
NSG vote: i honestly forget what this was for
N_M vote: back to scumread
NSG vote: ready to end the day vote

every vote is a deliberate step in moving the game forward for her
it's something i initially saw as political until i realised the purpose each one served (partially after I was dead and she literally told me on D2 to have some faith)

as opposed to

If there's 7 of us now and we mislynch today thats LYLO tomorrow right? Math you must be scum for throwing caution to the wind.

VOTE: Math

can't tell if serious
if serious, lazy and has been repeated like it's out of a playbook
i can name 3 players who know me for my recklessness; i've voted every player in 2 different 5p lylos

Mathdino locktown ofc

Ew. VOTE: Something_Smart

i'm like 80% sure smart was joking here as a response to my question to gamma

so we got a vote for a joke

So then if you're town, take your vote off town

I wouldn't be town if my votes didn't hit town at some point during the day. But fine..

VOTE: Red

Same question to you about your PP vote.[/quote]
red vote literally because smart asked

VOTE: Mathdino For reasons

this one's unclear so w/e

Yep I saw Red as scummy too but don't think Red and Penguin make sense. I'm thinking Red/SS.

VOTE: Red

here's the key

while she was voting me, i made a post WTFing at the gamma wagon, particularly at penguin and red

directly after my post, she pivots from voting me to voting someone she thought i was scumreading who is a known lynchbait player

if i were scumreading red, red would be EASILY lynched. straight up. this is an apparent opportunity

not gonna rehash the argument over red, i made it clear that was bad

it means that you're literally equating dumb to scum when i know you can do better than that

Way to completely discredit my read instead of providing any analysis...and coming from the guy who believes Red is anything but dumb after recieving training from God Almighty Mathdino. You know better than this.

VOTE: Math

and once i made it clear the red wagon wasn't happening (and, assuming red is town, especially wouldn't happen after red spews himself as town)

this is a vote for threat removal

it's not "lemme vote this person and see where things go"

it's "who can i get a lynch on today"

hence, scum mentality

[Mathdino]

Fuck off with your bs meta read. You can't meta me you've admitted yourself in the 2d3. You can't use it as a reason today that boat has sailed and you're twisting everything to fit your narrative. You're asking for votes with every post you make which I'm going to destroy.

i had no town meta on you at the time

if RC was fooled by personal experience with you, then of course i'm not gonna go and do cold meta on you

i now have firsthand experience with you AND how you've dealt with this playerlist

AND how you've dealt with me-town and gamma-town

all i'm gathering from that experience is:
- you're a good player and can be read by Burden of Proficiency in how shitty or good your reasoning is
- as town, every vote you make is following a gamesolving agenda
- as scum, you're more politically minded in terms of how to deal with the players around you

i'm motivation-reading you with the background of having seen how you go about playing to wincon

this isn't a case of "oh CT used this phrase here therefore she is scum by meta" (although people like NSG can be read that way)

this is a case of "CT's progression is not what i would expect from CT with a town mindset, having seen CT as town"

[Mathdino]

nah but i've seen you fight off a scumlynch before so i'm glad as hell this is happening now and not tomorrow

[Mathdino]

also i don't think "things happened in a low information stage" is an excuse for shallow thought processes at all

both gamma and red have dropped hints of thought processes that don't often come from scum, and that was in the first 2 pages of the day

tbh i get the feeling you WANT me to get involved with crazy wall v wall case v case chaos tho considering that's like the most anti town aspect of my behaviour

[Mathdino]

wat

i don't know you like i know NSG, of course i'm gonna approach those things differently

go meta my towngames if you feel like, but that "mathdino blows up the entire day over an NSG scumread" was a major anomaly for my playstyle

redflavor and N_M both modded games where i displayed all of those traits

except "too many townreads"

i generally don't have enough townreads (or any reads) if i don't know the playerlist

luckily i now know the playerlist

[Mathdino]

don't know what you think you're proving

[Mathdino]

i mean shit if you feel the need to do a full on "every single post" analysis then the case isn't centred around a solid foundation in the first place

i'll respond to shit on request from others

as it is, over half of it gets major things wrong about my playstyle and my evaluation of other players

Another red flag for Math is; if we compare his opening in the Bird 7p vs the 2d3, you’ll notice any of his usual setup spec/optimal play rubbish is completely missing. His opening in and of itself is beyond uncharacteristic. We might even be able to flip his own useless “buzzword” onto him and say BoP implies that Mathdino is scum based on his opening alone.

this is the most egregious thing

you want me to break bird 7p?

this setup has been around for literally over a decade, it's balanced and robust

i break setups that i feel are flawed (like the current newbie setup)

you're literally scumreading me here for not trying to break an 11 year old setup

[Mathdino]

My first real post of any useful content is 1103. Before that point it was all memeing and joking and Red being awkward. I vote Math for being the last one on the PP wagon because I find that uncharacteristically reckless for him. The reason putting someone to L-1 in this setup is risky, as opposed to others, is that scum could quick hammer and still end up having an advantage like this:

D1: (9p) Mislynch --> NK (5p) 3 town, 2 scum = LYLO.
Then we would lynch the person who quick hammered and assuming that they are in fact scum it would go:
D2: (5p) Scum lynch --> NK (3p) 2 town, 1 scum = LYLO.

All of this would have likely given scum victory because town would have been completely deprived of any information of substance so chances are 60% that we mislynch and lose the game, therefore this is the optimal scum strategy.

and what the fuck is this setup spec

if you don't think i thought this through before i put someone at lol-L-1 you're seriously underestimating me on this

scum deciding to quickhammer would be strictly -EV for scum, i would've welcomed a quickhammer there

If Penguin flips VT (3/5): Scum have a 3/4 chance of not hitting the cop. Autolynch the hammerer, maybe do a hypoclaim, and in the majority of situations, there's enough info to solve LyLo.

If Penguin flips Doc (1/5): Doc's only usefulness is as a named townie, stopping the kill is unlikely and only really strictly increases EV if it stops 2 kills. 3/4, cop still around, autolynch hammerer, solve LyLo on what's probably a coinflip.

If Penguin flips Cop (1/5): This is really the only situation in which we're utterly fucked, but the Doc is still around as a named townie, and if Doc survives to LyLo, that puts the game at a coinflip.

weighted by the likelihood of penguin flipping VT, scum choosing to quickhammer and scumclaim is +EV for town

[Mathdino]

All of this would have likely given scum victory because town would have been completely deprived of any information of substance so chances are 60% that we mislynch and lose the game, therefore this is the optimal scum strategy.

like fucking hell this is actually a straight up lie

i'm floored that you're trying to attack me on setup spec territory

[Mathdino]

Now to close this chapter, let’s think for a moment. Of all the players here who would Mathdino want to get rid of the most if he were scum? I’d say myself because I actually make AI content happen and most like PP because he is predisposed to pessimism with Mathdino. SS, Red and Gamma are all easily won over by and pocketed by Math. Funny how his voting is lining up with an easily predictable agenda. This also points to a NM partner as NM does not easily have the wool pulled over his eyes by anyone.

also you can have another buzzword

because this is begging the question

the fact that i'm not pushing smart, red, and gamma is consistent with my scumgame, therefore i'm scum?

you're making the exact same argument NSG did

like literally, the exact same argument, that "oh math's pushes are political and consistent with his scumgame"

not to mention the fact that i'm on record multiple times for saying that smart is one of the few people who's caught me as scum, and is thus one of the biggest threats to my scumgame

this idea that SS/Red/Gamma have "the wool pulled over their eyes" IS LITERALLY REFERRING TO MY TOWNGAME JUST YESTERDAY

[Mathdino]

just remember that anyone who L-1's anyone in bird 7p is scum

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Cheeky

[Mathdino]

wait i thought we were gonna get intent

cheekytown who's scum if i'm "gamethrowing town"

important question

[Mathdino]

Hardclaim cop guilty on smart

Interesting vote though

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Smart

[Mathdino]

Smart crumbed my role a while ago lol
Figured either VT or scum gearing up for the fakeclaim

[Mathdino]

Math, do we lynch gamma emerald

if you think i'm any good at gutreading gamma emerald on like page 2 you're gonna be real disappointed

honestly locking 2 VTs as town is really all we need to solve this setup since we can just lynch everyone else who's not a PR and win

gamma strikes me as a bad wagon considering he towntold twice

success is not guaranteed with reading gamma tho

so right now i'm playing dumb or scum with penguin and red

So does that mean you're scum WK'ing town Red or is this a chainsaw?

vote me if you're confident

First letter of each emoticon spells
Cool
Oops
: P

Smart literally crumbed Come On People
I was like are you trying to draw the kill or something

[Mathdino]

But yeah if it turns out he was actually trying to "dodge the nightkill" then there's no way he's VT

[Mathdino]

I absolutely didn't think it was serious

I thought you were pulling an Almost50 to draw the kill

But now you're claiming you wanted to dodge it

Just showcasing the scumclaim

[Mathdino]

Also I'm totally writing up the Almost50 Gambit as a wiki page in a few weeks

[Mathdino]

And why cop the obvious candidate for tomorrow’s lynch?

I completely fail to see how he was obvious lol

I copped him because he crumbed my role and I was having trouble reading him

Figured he would never get NKd after the end of day tunnel

I'll do a write up for the partner when I get back to a computer but I didn't exactly expect a scum check here

[Mathdino]

Because if you were a VT, you would've crumbed cop to draw the nightkill

I agree your meta is easily readable

But thanks to penguins hammer I had like no material to read you off of

[Mathdino]

Scum keeping the possibility open, yes
Scum who crumb can also just claim VT trying to draw the kill

Here's a better question
Why would I check anyone other than you

RedFlavor was a hard townread
Penguin was a scumread before cheeky blew up the day
Not_Mafia is always the wrong cop check
And gammas reads are generally awful and spews his alignment in lategame

I asked myself who do I not have a hard read on that I would love to have as confirmed town

[Mathdino]

You think Gamma is more easily readable than me?

Given that he towntold 3 times and you didn't, yes

Every game is different

If Gamma were playing as hilariously as he played last game, or as in tit for tat, then yeah I'd have resolved that shit

But Gamma once he spews town only gets townier

[Mathdino]

Also unrelated but the stupid crumb joke was not the first time this round that Math took a joke too seriously. The first time he did it was right after he memed by repeating what nsg said, and I memed by repeating what HE said but he didn't realize it and instead responded like it was serious. That was one of the reasons I ended up thinking he was scum.

What town meta of me are you using to argue my taking things seriously is a scumtell tho

My first game onsite I tried to hardpush someone who claimed scum in rvs xD

[Mathdino]

If Math/Cheeky is TvT, then the two of them get eliminated as punishment.

I don't mind that at all.

Fwiw I actually believe this is genuine and kind of a fair point :/

Working theory right now is smart busses penguin to draw the real cop out, hopes one gets lynched, kill cop, and lynch me or Not_Mafia in 3p

I don't think he noticed my pr play at all

[Mathdino]

You should look again at the circumstances surrounding the joke crumb.

Claiming that you are afraid of getting PRhunted is basically claiming that you are a PR. But if you were really cautious of getting PRhunted you would not mention being cautious of getting PRhunted, because saying that you are cautious of getting PRhunted is basically telling scum to kill you.

No? I'm cautious of pushing anyone because they might drop PR tells. Where did I refer to myself getting PR hunted in that post?

Come On People, i'm obviously town!

I literally quoted Gamma saying he was afraid of people dropping PR tells and used a smiley. There is no way that this could be interpreted as a serious crumb rather than a joke.

If I thought I found a completely serious cop crumb, I'd have counterclaimed you on the spot. I wasn't scrubbing people's posts hoping I could find scum prepping for LyLo. I'm completely aware I only picked up on it because it was that jokey.

The point is that when I saw it, I figured there were 2 options:
- You were a VT purposefully doing that to WIFOM the NK (the A50 gambit).
- You were scum trying to create a moment of plausible deniability, where you could easily point to the obvcrumb later on.

And the check was to tell the difference.

Like the fact remains that Smart crumbed his actual claim here. There's no way he literally openly crumbs his role as an actual cop, that much should be straight up obvious.

In short, "fuck you, no take-backs". If it's a joke, then it shouldn't be HIS ACTUAL ROLECLAIM.

[Mathdino]

Also if Smart is town then it's Math-Penguin

If Smart is scum, there's no clear partner here

I'm around 75% sure the partner is Penguin tbh. I've seen this play before from Pine. Much easier to claim a guilty on your partner to get PR ccs than to have to pull a guilty on an inno.

[Mathdino]

If it's a joke, then it shouldn't be HIS ACTUAL ROLECLAIM.

Why's that?

Humor is humor. I'd make that joke no matter WHAT my role.

I hate it when people argue this. NSG pulled the same shit of "oh I totally act the exact same as PR, VT, and scum" which is just straight up false. When you're a PR, you play with a different mindset. I played this one like shit and figured
- if CT flips scum, probably gg scum even if I get shot
- if CT flips town, at least I'm not getting killed tonight and can gamesolve tomorrow

You play more survivalistically, you're incredibly aware that the game could be decided on whether or not you get NK'd.

And you don't fucking openly crumb your role. People say they'd do that but they straight up don't.

So we should lynch Penguin today then

Gimme some time to metadive and if that looks right, then sure.

Tbh I kinda prefer to just resolve 1v1s on the spot with a pre-ordained lynch order afterwards, since there are more townies alive to talk about the decision. If one of them had the chance to flip information (like mafia roleblocker) or if there were a mechanical benefit to lynching confscum, then sure, but as it is, lynching the partner today just kills a townie.

[Mathdino]

So we should lynch Penguin today then

Probably, yes. Then it will be ONE of you/Gamma deciding rather than both (where both have to get it right).

okay yeah this is straight up scum motivated strategy tho ffs

[Mathdino]

And you don't fucking openly crumb your role. People say they'd do that but they straight up don't.

Eddie Cane did it in Chocolate Mafia.

Gimme a minute to go find the quote.

Eddie Cane is a more shoot from the hip player than either of us

[Mathdino]

i mean props to eddie cane but my profile on him as a player is very different from my profile on you

[Mathdino]

oh boy an updated wiki gimme a second

[Mathdino]

Eddie Cane is a more shoot from the hip player than either of us

Which has no bearing on whether he'd WIFOM his role like that.

And you KNOW that I would WIFOM my role like that because I did it in Lone Wolf.

i literally do not remember that you were even in that game

[Mathdino]

did a quick search for "crumb" in smart's posts

I noticed that you thought I was a gunsmith; that was more or less my plan. When I said "I know Espe's role" I (like Ari) thought he was a BG, but after he claimed miller I realized I could spin it into a cop crumb, so I spent the rest of the day implying that I was a cop (hence me putting so much emphasis on "maybe there's another role that will make miller make more sense"). I switched to JK kind of on a whim when EE claimed to have checked me.

this was as a 1-shot BP

smart does not crumb his actual role as PR, he crumbs in a way that draws or dodges the nightkill accordingly

this is playing smart

there is 0 fucking reason to think that mafia wouldn't just fucking shoot him straight up in this game for openly crumbing C-O-P

you know damn well that almost everyone in this game would, as scum, shoot you for that

[Mathdino]

So it's logical to expect him to comb for that sort of crumb as well, which seems to be what he did from reading further down.

This is not what I'm arguing, he obviously SAW it as I expected everyone to see it. I'm talking about him intentionally ignoring the possibility that I just wanted to make a joke because of some bullshit about how "a real cop wouldn't joke crumb their role".

literally correct though

this game is more evidence for that rule

[Mathdino]

do i really have to comb through smart's entire PR post history searching for crumbs when the point is that they don't exist

[Mathdino]

this game is more evidence for that rule

So... where is the OTHER evidence?

have you ever seen a player with a non-eddie-cane/MU-esque playstyle openly crumb their role as that role

[Mathdino]

if you're using eddie cane and RC as evidence that you would totally do those things when you clearly play more cautious idk what to tell you

smart rolls tracker here, can't find any crumbs off a skim

[Mathdino]

there is 0 fucking reason to think that mafia wouldn't just fucking shoot him straight up in this game for openly crumbing C-O-P

"There is 0 reason to think that mafia wouldn't shoot someone for making a joke."

Gamma. Listen to his argument here. Even he admitted that it was clearly a joke AND that his first thought was that I was VT trying to draw the NK... and now he says there's no reason to believe that scum won't kill me.

fucking wat

on this site, scum kills people for making jokes like that, full stop

AS A VT

making that joke would've been a great play, because it's clearly fake, but it's also the kind of thing that gets you killed

AS AN ACTUAL COP

that would be fucking stupid, because there's no reason to believe scum wouldn't just shoot you for even a joke

[Mathdino]

on this site, scum kills people for making jokes like that, full stop

Every time?

if they actually give a shit about PR hunting but are also terrible at it, yes

[Mathdino]

also keep in mind eddie cane and RC have massive targets on their backs as town anyway just by virtue of being them

so it doesn't actually change the equity of shooting them to openly crumb their role

the way they play evolved from very different experiences to you

Edit: yes.

dude the playerlist FYPOV is literally redflavor, N_M, mathdino, gamma, penguin

of these, i imagine i'd be the only one that's not shit at PR hunting

but if you were trying to dodge the kill from me, then openly implying "i'm tunneling math tomorrow" is EXACTLY HOW TO GET ME TO KILL YOU

[Mathdino]

So... I have no reason to believe that the scum are not terrible at PR hunting. Is what you're saying.

When you are in this game.

also keep in mind eddie cane and RC have massive targets on their backs as town anyway just by virtue of being them

so it doesn't actually change the equity of shooting them to openly crumb their role

the way they play evolved from very different experiences to you

Edit: yes.

dude the playerlist FYPOV is literally redflavor, N_M, mathdino, gamma, penguin

of these, i imagine i'd be the only one that's not shit at PR hunting

but if you were trying to dodge the kill from me, then openly implying "i'm tunneling math tomorrow" is EXACTLY HOW TO GET ME TO KILL YOU

pagetopping this shit

2 options here:

1. Smart thinks I'm not scum, therefore scum is probably shit at PR hunting. And crumbing C-O-P gets you fucking killed.

2. Smart thinks I could be scum, therefore scum is decent at PR hunting, YET HE LITERALLY SAYS WE LYNCH MATH TOMORROW FUCKING WAT

[Mathdino]

I never pointed to it as a crumb.

I'm freely admitting that I'd do the same as doc, VT, or scum.

It was nothing more than a joke, with maybe a bit of WIFOM added to make scum think I wasn't cop.

and i straight up believe this is a lie

scum don't pick up on WIFOM that deep anyway

[Mathdino]

Scum has killed the 1 person tunneling me end of day before and people just confirmed me as town by the hilarious obvness of the frame job

People are bad at nka - if anything you dying at night would ultra clear me

[Mathdino]

Spoiler: gamma probtown, lolcase city

nope

what if i put a cannon to your cranium

would you be able to force reads

very likely

Towntell #1
i have strong reason to believe that gamma as scum here would just make up reads if i asked
the fact that he doesn't even make up reads after i basically tell him "please make up reads" is super "idgaf" indicative
gamma-town appears totally useless early game

No...it's no different than how he started the last game.

I just gut want to lynch him right now.

VOTE: Gamma

Is that RVS? Why vote me for a joke?

Actually SS might be scum, this reads way too self-coinscious

Towntell #2 by interaction
penguin push on gamma is still balls and this jives very well with penguin-scum gamma-town

and he's the first one to call out something_smart here, this is literally an anti-scum thing to do if scum

If I seem cautious it's because this setup is AIDS for the PRs most likely

Claiming that you are afraid of getting PRhunted is basically claiming that you are a PR. But if you were really cautious of getting PRhunted you would not mention being cautious of getting PRhunted, because saying that you are cautious of getting PRhunted is basically telling scum to kill you.

No? I'm cautious of pushing anyone because they might drop PR tells. Where did I refer to myself getting PR hunted in that post?

Towntell #3
i really just don't believe this is something scum says

like it's not LAMISTy so it seems to genuinely be "oh boy if i push people they'll spew themselves as a PR"

but he doesn't even fucking explain that shit the first time (which draws suspicion to him)

as scum, the correct play here is to be like "Well yknow I'm being cautious cuz I don't wanna out any PRs, so instead I'll do nothing and call it pro-town!"
not
"I'm cautious because this setup is AIDS"
and only explain how it's pro-town after getting pressured to do so

tl;dr: this seems out of gamma's scumrange

[Mathdino]

not_mafia, if scum, has done basically fuckall for scum wincon other than halfheartedly jumping on a cheeky wagon

weirdly enough N_M can be read on motivation

so i'm seeing like 75% penguin 20% N_M 5% gamma here

penguin scum by PoE

[Mathdino]

Mathdino was the better lynch.

If this is town Math absolutely hangs tomorrow.

Why did you wait until this point to weigh in?

also while we're at it this is the 1 instance of any interaction or reference between the two of them

[Mathdino]

the 1v1 kind of ruined our ability to get reactions

is the main reason why i was explicitly not arguing for cheeky's lynch every post, it seemed like the two of us and you/red were the only ones really participating

point is i don't think fencesittiness is going to be AI for penguin or smart because they were literally not here

[Mathdino]

jingle's jester nightless and creature's bastard micro are really the only scumgames i'd call good

i'm fairly sure whenever smart refers to my scum meta it's exclusively a reference to jester nightless

N_M was scum with me there

[Mathdino]

How do you not think Math is scum for strongarming the Cheeky lynch? Do you think he and Cheeky are both that bad?

while i absolutely take responsibility for fucking up my read re: the original cheeky vote

i in no way "strongarmed" that lynch

i was fairly open about
- wanting to have discussion outside of that 1v1
- being equally willing to vote penguin instead

[Mathdino]

the fuck?

my scumread on penguin was independent of cheeky

hell, my scumread on cheeky was partially related to the scumread on penguin; it was fucking weird that she took my red/penguin call-out as reason to suspect red instead of penguin

penguin wasn't even active

when people put me in 1v1 mode (and i've gotten locked in these fights with strong town players before) it becomes a matter of survivalism

this game it became a matter of "i can't fucking deal with this 1v1 or it forces a claim"

but hey

GL in LYLO though, since apparently NOBODY can distinguish PR's from scum

pitch perfect description of cheeky's play

she's only seen me play VT or effective VT and i accept that my PR play is distinct

[Mathdino]

i consider my own value as a cop and as a town player staying alive

to be far FAR superior than trying to tell cheeky (who could've been scum at the time) "hey you might be scumreading me for being a PR"

hell, doing that would if anything have been scum-indicative for me, a showcase of more interest in not getting lynched than not getting killed

[Mathdino]

i consider my own value as a cop and as a town player staying alive

to be far FAR superior than trying to tell cheeky (who could've been scum at the time) "hey you might be scumreading me for being a PR"

hell, doing that would if anything have been scum-indicative for me, a showcase of more interest in not getting lynched than not getting killed

also fuck off with that shit

the 2 players who talked most about PRs hypothetically

were

Game 1: cheekyteeky, who was a cop
Game 2: redflavor, who was a doc

this kind of thing is obvious

that's why you crumb in a way that scum can't pick up on it

[Mathdino]

i mean smart is literally forced to scumread me here so this second opinion is gonna be lolworthy FMPOV

i can do a write-up on smart but along the same lines, i'd rather you just do it yourself due to Cardinal Rule of LyLo

[Mathdino]

i'm kinda peeved that you have your lylo trajectory handed to you on a silver platter tbh

like FYPOV smart "knows" the scumteam

i still have to hope my reads are right

[Mathdino]

EBWOP: *From His POV

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Penguin

hey gamma don't hammer

[Mathdino]

UNVOTE:

you're offline now anyway

[Mathdino]

hey gamma are you here

VOTE: Penguin

cuz N_M ain't

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Smart

solid

[Mathdino]

holy shit you weren't showing up as online dude

[Mathdino]

so from N_M's standpoint penguin is literally confirmed scum

are we done here then?

gamma where are you at with N_M vs penguin?

[Mathdino]

so from N_M's standpoint penguin is literally confirmed scum

are we done here then?

gamma where are you at with N_M vs penguin?

I feel like I'm liking Penguin's content more just by virtue of it being there?

dear god are you putting me in a position to argue against policy lynching not_mafia in lylo

[Mathdino]

Obviously scum are not going to show absolute intent to lynch someone as soon as they start the wagon.

But I don't think there's anything in there that indicates that riding that wagon as far as he could was not his plan

.

ok so
you're right, this was my plan

what the fuck else is the point of wagoning people

like i get annoyed when people think wagon shopping is a scumtell when it's probably the best way to produce game content

@Gamma: i should clarify that my intent wasn't to improve CT's play but to look at her reaction and see where her reads went
immediately tunneling me back was a shitty side effect

[Mathdino]

gamma give me reasons that penguin is town besides "he actually posted game relevant content"

because i'm feeling like N_M towntold a couple times in his N_M way

[Mathdino]

wait also

if something_smart calls a guilty on penguinpower, that means either

1. Smart thought Penguin was a Cop
2. Smart thought Penguin was just easily lynchable (basically lynchbait for Mathdino)
3. Smart wanted to guilty scumbuddy for towncred

#3 actually literally happened in Jurassic Park Mafia (the only time I've ever seen Pine bus) so i might be biased

but play devil's advocate for me

[Mathdino]

tl;dr:

Scripten Neighborizer
Mathdino VT
fferyllt Watcher

vs

Pine Goon
BBT Goon

scripten is basically conftown by play and role usage

pine opens D3 with a tracker guilty on BBT

fferyllt obviously claims watcher and we realise that there's no way there's a tracker and a watcher in the same setup

so by a series of "Mathdino gives the playerlist heart attacks" we narrowed down all possible scumteams to

Pine/Mathdino
Pine/BBT
fferyllt/BBT

pine's trajectory IIRC was intent to lynch BBT and then lynch fferyllt with the towncred

we only really won it because he was caught in the act of staging a hammer

i actually wrote about it in the wiki page for Quickhammer baiting

[Mathdino]

we ruled out fferyllt/BBT by hammerbaiting her as well

i honestly don't think that'll work on N_M because i think town-N_M just hammers confscum

regardless, my stance then is the same as it was now

i don't want to bring a 1v1 to 3p, so we should be lynching between me/smart while you and N_M are actually still alive

[Mathdino]

- Smart doesn't have to win today in that scenario. Recall just earlier Smart said that we should probably just lynch Penguin today (!!) which immediately gives his cop claim more credibility than anyone else. The point of guiltying your buddy is to out the cop (so their credibility gets ruined) and win in 3p.

- Alternatively, 3p LyLo with Not_Mafia. Which is equally bad if not worse.

[Mathdino]

[Mathdino]

PenguinPower (1): Something_Smart, Mathdino

Not Voting (4): Not_Mafia, Gamma Emerald, PenguinPower

VC when I was being hammer tested
We know SS and MD are TvS
By refusing to hammer I prove I'm not scum with Smart (as if MD is scum it's 100% him and PP)
So yeah I'm conftown
So I don't see any problem letting NM into 3p lylo? Whomever is the real cop is getting killed n2 if we lynch correctly here, so I always live to 3p, so we always have a conftown in 3p. So NM and PP just crossvote and I make my judgment.

no my point is that in the case that we lynch penguin
smart could just kill you, putting N_M in 3p lylo

you're right i don't see a problem letting N_M in 3p lylo if the goal is "read N_M correctly"

my problem is putting him in the position of deciding

see: N_M's 3p lylo history

[Mathdino]

gamma i'm seeing literally nothing AI in smart's interactions with PP vs N_M D1

there's just no interaction in either direction

how many games have you played with not_mafia? are you familiar with his town meta?

[Mathdino]

wait fucking lol gamma

penguin's been site active today

he's had more than enough time to check the fact that he has a fucking guilty claim on him

he's for whatever reason given up

i'm guessing that's directly related to my guilty on his partner

smart/penguin, and if it's not, penguin deserves the elimination for literally not playing the game when from his POV the game is solved

[Mathdino]

i mostly read N_M by "is he playing his scum meta"

him playing to scum meta is mostly just him playing to wincon given alignment knowledge

busses less than you'd think

here it almost feels like he's been too passive to be scum

[Mathdino]

Idk man there's like a 5% room for doubt there still imo

honestly i'm sure enough about this that i'd hammer test him if i didn't know he would just hammer as town anyway

and if i ask him "are you gonna hammer" he's gonna say no and then do it anyway because lolmathdino

so if you have any argument more than "not_mafia does nothing" which is immediately countered by "yeah but penguin has done even less, which would be pretty in line with his buddy calling a guilty on him (letting himself be bussed)"

then i'd like to end it

[Mathdino]

will you QH smart

[Mathdino]

I will QH Penguin, fair warning

also scum N_M optimal play here is to just convince me or you to hammertest N_M tbh

[Mathdino]

That wouldn't prove anything.

If you really wanted to hammertest Not_Mafia, you could hammertest him on yourself.

no, because i'm obviously the kind of player that clipboards "[ uv ][/ uv ]" in order to catch quickhammers

it would only work if i went offline, knew penguin was also offline, and made sure you and N_M were both online

none of this is possible

and fucking lol at trying to get me to self vote

manipulating my love of gambits

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Math
Math, if you really want to hammertest Not_Mafia, vote yourself. It's logically equivalent to hammertesting him on Penguin, and he's not going to quickhammer.

LMAO

[Mathdino]

so penguin's been active in the scum thread, huh?

[Mathdino]

sure sure

i believe you know penguin is available to quickhammer me and this is basically a last ditch effort to get your way

also stokes paranoia of smart/N_M team

dual effect of "create a winning scenario" and "WIFOM gamma up"

[Mathdino]

I am not waiting on Gamma's vote

gamma end it dear god

i'm not fucking self-voting

[Mathdino]

i am honestly floored that someone just tried to get me to do that too

[Mathdino]

also if you vote not_mafia in lylo without amazing reasons and get it wrong i will haunt you for the rest of our games together

[Mathdino]

N_M if i force gamma to vote penguin tomorrow by way of threat of RC-style mockery

will you hammer an L-1'd Smart

[Mathdino]

i don't want to prove anything

you misunderstand me

penguin at this point is literally not going to visibly get ingame so we can't get scum to bus

i just want to end the day

[Mathdino]

yes

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Smart

solid

i'm still voting smart

VOTE: Smart

what exactly are we waiting on here

[Mathdino]

yes i'm asking them what we're waiting on

[Mathdino]

NM I don't want you to just vote, I want to discuss with you. Thankfully PP's activity trends don't seem to indicate him being online at this hour so that's nice but I'd still prefer you unvote in case it's Math/PP

Alternatively, this confs me as town so you and I can talk all we want about Not_Mafia vs PenguinPower until smart self hammers

[Mathdino]

I mean optimal play is only for you to self hammer once it's proven PenguinPower could've hammered

By doing his job elsewhere on site because he's definitely not posting here lol

[Mathdino]

gamma are you trying to get a read on SS vs Math or PP vs N_M

if SS vs me, fine, but i don't know why N_M is your rock here

if PP vs N_M, you're not gonna get anything you like out of N_M

i haven't read him wrong since i mislynched him last; i just read him as town correctly after D1 locktowning him in a completed micro

so if that's the issue, just sheep me tomorrow

[Mathdino]

...then just talk to me and SS

idk what you expect to get out of not_mafia other than "gut"

[Mathdino]

I'm planning a big post, probably tomorrow.

i guess we're going balls to the wallpost tomorrow smh

tfw i've had to 1v1 a player every day i've been alive in this game

[Mathdino]

oh my god i'm gonna have to play with cheeky again in 5p

fuck me with a brick

[Mathdino]

well glad you saw the guilty claim at least lol

[Mathdino]

i'm guessing you weren't able to see how the scumteam is literally confirmed to be me/PP or Smart/PP unless my N_M read is shit

literally confirmed scum all day

[Mathdino]

yo i feel obligated to give some advice here because obviously this setup is essentially dependent on whether or not scum can shoot PRs

brb finding posts

[Mathdino]

I'm glad you thought I wasn't cop then.

i actually shot you first because i thought you were cop

then i switched the shot because i figured it'd be more ideal to shoot the doc and claim a guilty on the cop (who was clearly either you or gamma)

your COP claim made me think it could be gamma, but gamma HARD VT told for like all of D1

which was fucking ironic since his goal was to make things not aids for the PRs

redflavor was the obvious doc, i'm gonna go grab posts on how i knew that

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Smart

[Mathdino]

Smart played much less open and stream-of-consciousy

it was like he didn't WANT to be confirmed town by me

intuition picked up on the "i really don't want to be NK'd" at the end

and the C-O-P claim would never have been made by a D-O-C

N_M just wasn't playing like a cop i guess

so i figured gamma was cop but when day broke i realised how obvious VT he was and went with the original plan faking a guilty on the cop

redflavor was too anal retentive about PR talk, and he actually crumbed doc twice

[Mathdino]

so uh

tl;dr

don't crumb in a way that anyone will actually pick up on it

i'm kinda proud of the crumb haha

Edit: yeah i'm confused about this game

and i'm kind of annoyed that i had to lynch the only two townies who clearly knew what was going on in order to win it

i expected the entire town to be against me in the morning but then it turned out i didn't even have to fake a guilty to get people to wanna vote smart

[Mathdino]

i play to my audience

and S_S copped penguin, not me lol

but yeah i mainly just did exactly enough to get gamma to not scumread me, shot a "townread" (i would've been fucked if redflavor pushed me D2, which he would've), and lynched anyone who figured things out

i don't disagree that this isn't exactly my best scumgame
but again, play your audience lol

anyway
@

RedFlavor

:

Yeah, claiming being cautious of getting pr hunter is opposite of being cautios

Claiming that you are afraid of getting PRhunted is basically claiming that you are a PR. But if you were really cautious of getting PRhunted you would not mention being cautious of getting PRhunted, because saying that you are cautious of getting PRhunted is basically telling scum to kill you.

obsessing over people PR hunting or people softclaiming PR is a major PR tell

the fact that you were specifically paranoid of gamma's whole lack of clarity over whether he was claiming PR made it twice as likely you were ready to counterclaim him

Maybe doc should out themselves so cop wont get shot or town will have an ic?

i've done this before, the whole "what should someone with my power role do???"

as tough as it is to figure out what the fuck the optimal strategy is, don't ask people lol

you wouldn't have come up with this as a VT imo

VOTE: CTComputer Tomography scumread me for memeing about penguin's reaction to day1 tracker claim, and now she is not explaining her scumread on math

I FEEL LIKE THIS IS A BREADCRUMB BUT IM REALLY NOT SURE

COMPUTER TOMOGRAPHY SEEMS LIKE A REALLY UNLIKELY AUTOCORRECT FOR CHEEKYTEEKY

COMPUTER TOMOGRAPHY IS THE CT IN A CT SCAN THAT DOCTORS PERFORM SO

YEAH IDK

BUT I SHOT RED THINKING HE WAS FOR SURE DOC SO

[Mathdino]

Congrats anyway. Math you played amazing. Well done.

i appreciate that

i disagree, but i also accept that i did exactly what i had to do to win

find the doc and find the cop

had i not done that, there's 0 chance i'd have won on play alone

[Mathdino]

I'll give you that; but, tbf to me, I was playing my scum game outside of my wheelhouse by design.

yeah i specifically told penguin to not bus

while i tried to bus him hard

(this is opposite both our metas)

the original goal was to dick around on D1 followed by me ending up on a vanity wagon on penguin for some shitty reason

penguin scumflip clears me like it cleared me after lynching NSG

me scumflip lowkey clears penguin

cheeky hard derailed that when she went after redflavor

because a super central aspect of my town persona is white knighting my townreads

[Mathdino]

i was also trying to hard frame gamma as my partner
i lol'd when cheeky went in the opposite direction and put red or N_M as my partner
but as long as math/penguin seemed ridiculous i was good
was well prepared for the meta argument if that came up

1105 – Mathdino reacts to my vote. Tone is awkward, like forced casualness? And rather than respond to my accusation of his lack of caution in pushing PP to L-1, he dismisses it with “Can’t tell if RVS,” he also subtly implies both Gamma and I are town with his “I see my trust was well placed” comment about us not hammering PP. If the push on Penguin to L-1 was a reaction test, then the benefits did not outweigh the cost of town likely losing this game as a result. Mathdino of all people is smarter than this. He finishes this post with a deflection of attention onto Gamma “yo gamma do you have reads” yeah, awkward right?

this is correct, all of this

i don't play scum enough tbh

but yeah i started modifying my play after you wrote that case specifically to not get caught on this shit. i was in full on town mode in lylo

that said, the setup spec part was incorrect, and that really helped paint the entire case badly. bird 7p isn't breakable. i GUESS town me could've opened with a OKAY MOTHERFUCKERS, HERES THE DEAL, STOP MAKING IT OBVIOUS WHEN YOURE A PR

but that's about it

Smart literally crumbed Come On People

See, this is a scumtell for Math: taking things too seriously.

That was VERY OBVIOUSLY a joke and even though that IS my role there's no way he would have seen it as a serious crumb as town.

this was also true, and i also started modifying to be much less serious after this post

taking things too seriously is actually more of a "i'm losing" tell for me

but it's not hard to realise that in a situation where i'm a cop and have the entire scumteam nailed down, i don't feel like i'm losing

while if the entire town suspects me and i just mislynched the strongest townie, i'm going to be pretty on edge

so thanks for the tips guys

[Mathdino]

Yeah I'd like to know what I could have done differently to persuade town. I let my frustration get the better of me and you took full advantage of it. Yes you WK your TRs but the timing context of it was so obviously agenda driven.

I'm definitely impressed anyway.

Would love suggestions on how to improve my town cohesion skills. I felt pretty steamrolled and I knew it was coming but my flip should've made Math the autolynch today or so I thought.

i just wish i'd been around exactly at daystart to make it completely unbelievable that i was anything but cop

it should've made me the autolynch, yeah, but that's exactly why i prepped the copclaim when i realised there was no way i'd survive a game with both you and smart

cases are scummy, meta is trash

the paragraph i listed was probably your best point, but most of the day you instead hammered what was essentially a "math shouldn't be scumreading me, what a bad push, why's he metaing me"

which is really easy to paint as OMGUS, and reminded everyone of NSG last game. plus gamma correctly picked up on all the hints that i was genuinely scumreading you since "predatory" is a real scumtell i've dropped elsewhere with gamma present (although i misused it this game in hindsight)

i think getting involved in the 1v1 and even interacting with me in the first place was your downfall, since it made you look like the aggressor and the one blowing up the town

[Mathdino]

i don't play scum enough tbh

but yeah i started modifying my play after you wrote that case specifically to not get caught on this shit. i was in full on town mode in lylo

I should've ripped apart every post in our 1v1 but I was too frustrated to think clearly and Easter was taking up a bit of time. On me for not trying well enough...although I get the feeling people weren't really reading anyway.

post by post analysis just makes you look like a supertunneller tho

you had basically 2 rock solid points, don't let them get drowned out by the bad points. i think the weakest part of your push was actually exactly when you went super tryhard, because you accidentally included a bunch of confbiased bad points (which I can just refute while ignoring the good ones)

my case on NSG yesterday was literally 1 single point that was super drawn out, which is why i rhetorically beat her. she was trying to engage me on a post by post level but i kept repeating the same point

not ALL OF my posts were scum indicative, but a good few were, and the ones that were were SUPER scum indicative for me

i think had you disengaged yourself from the 1v1 aspect and instead repeated the scumtell posts, you would've gotten your support