Micro 800-A: Double Day Unlimited [Endgame]

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Vote: RedFlavour

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Unvote, vote: Dunnstral

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Heyy

That's fair.

Unvote, vote: singersigner

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Not worried about getting hammered, Pine?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Where were you getting the impression Pine was worried?

The question was based on him not showing outward signs of being worried (hence the "Not") - Pine seemed to talk around the issue a bit in #43 and #45 rather than addressing it. I did think he might be somewhat worried but that was just based on general principles. It also just felt like it made sense to poke the guy that's at L-1.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

You all realize we don't have to be as dumb as the other game, right? We can just take our time discussing things before we

randomly

lynch someone.

I feel like there are better ways to poke the guy at l-1, though. Like it kind of feels like a non-question to me. What would have been an AI response, for example?

I don't think I can give a satisfactory answer to that question at the best of times. The point of the question was partly just as a poke, without any particular idea in mind, and partly because I did want to know - I think even a simple yes/no answer would've helped in me understanding Pine's mindset.

Displays concern with *looking* anti-Town, less concerned with *being* anti-Town.

Can you elaborate on this, Pine?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Singer and plot unvoted.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Cogito, how serious was your dunnstral vote in 27?

I was taking the "Hey" as a very lazy scum tell.

his last post felt pretty illuminating that he was going nowhere with his pine question

I think you pretty much could've gotten that from the original post.

What do you think of the situation CES?

I think mainly that I really appreciate getting to talk to chamber to keep myself sane.

Pine's cogdis point feels pretty off to me (but I wouldn't expect anything else from mastina's team); if I were to give a reason for why you might be scum, it'd be pretty much the opposite - you seem to be commenting a lot about how you stand in relation to other people and how your reads change from a slight remove (e.g. in #143). Maybe that's just what you're like but the whole cogdis line of questioning sure feels uninteresting.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Singer, what changed between #173 and #194 that made you decide to vote for Katyusha?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Lycan pointed out that Mastina's read in 126 is incongruous with what she had said about me in her Team Mafia PT. Link here, screenshot courtesy of Edward Cannis. Where has Pine bothered to interact with me to get to Mastina's scumread of me? The only purpose of the posts Lycan and I agree could be considered "interacting with" were posts 109 - 142 were to take wind out of my push. Clearly not motivated by putting any effort to sort me, but to take wind out of my push. I had 10 interactions with Pine, Pine only has 6 with me at the time this was written and they're mostly just answering me. It's passive, not active.

That screenshot is clearly written from a scum perspective though?

UNVOTE: Singer
UNVOTE: Ploti
UNVOTE: Dunnstral

and for what it's worth this is a town n_m post I think

I initially reacted positively to it too (he's no longer doing the silly "vote for everyone" thing!) but he's still voting for 5 people. Like, concretely he's allowing a lynch on you or Pine to happen more easily without any accountability on his part and I can easily imagine both of you being town if he's scum.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

"both of us" = RedFlavour & CheekyTeeky in that quote, Dunn.

The post was made on the 19th and choosing games was finalized the 21st so I’m pretty sure it was meant in a general conext. I’ll admit I haven’t read the pt besides that screenshot being discussed in our team’s pt some time in post game, but that was the basis of Lycan’s argument there. It makes sense to me as a general thing anyway.

You really don't need any context besides what's in the screenshot - it literally talks about threats, PRs, nightkills and buddying. Yours on its own could make sense as a general thing, but if you read all of them, it's clear it's not a general thing.

the more i look at that votecount the more i want to vote for singer but i really want pine to be lynched today

Do it! We've got 2 lynches.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

@CES...why do you think I'm scum?

Mainly, you just feel quite anti-town - you pushed a Pinequicklynch that came quite close to happening without you making any substantive comment about it. You're pushing Katyusha now and I don't get your current certainty nor why you suspected her initially. I haven't liked what's been happening this game and you've been a real part of that.

Katya, is the point of that quote that you're giga?

I meant to say this earlier but I'm at the Shea London meet for a week. I should be able to keep up but I will be phoneposting.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

But you don't know why I'm pushing Katy? I actually admitted I could very well be wrong about my initial push, but my current one I was quite clear about. I think it's worth commenting on.

I do understand why you're pushing Katya right now, I think, but I guess they don't seem that compelling to me? Like the hydrabuddy thing, sure, but that also does happen? The "hyper aware that she's scum" thing, that's proper stuff, I mentioned a similar thing before, but don't you get a niggling feeling that that might just be her playstyle? That's what kept me from really pursuing and the kraskaquote pretty much put the issue to bed for me.

you point to my involvement of the Pine quicklynch? I'm curious what you actually thought my role (or lackthereof) in that was...

During the period with the greatest risk of a Pinequicklynch you were the main person cheerleading it. See #68 and #96.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Not_mafia, why did you unvote Katya and vote singer in #248?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

First off, sorry for the lack of posting - I was somewhat demotivated by having been wrong about singer and the dumb fakehammer did actually get me. The only good thing about it was that to clarify to me that I am properly townreading Katya - this is a bad lynch and I want no part of it.

@Katya, Pine mostly just feels like he could easily be a townie with some bad opinions (felt, partly, #324's straying into bad faith argumentation) while there seemed to be clear cases of antitown motivation in singer's case (I think the early stuff with Pine is still the best example - I felt that maybe if the town was slightly different, singer's comments do get the Pinelynch over the hump while avoiding most of the blowback).

Vote: Not_mafia

Vote: Pine

Not entirely satisfied with either vote but both lynches would be infinitely preferable to a Katyalynch so whatevs.

I want look more closely into Plotinus and RedFlavour but I think that'll have to wait until after the meet.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Do you have any reason for town reading Plot beyond the draft thing, Pine? Because Plot's wiki page literally has the phrase "I like being scum." on it.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

*

On the topic of "voting everyone"

, Pine is asked by Plotinus why he did not do it despite saying he himself considered doing so after RedFlavor did infact vote everyone at the start of the game. The action goes from

being dumb

when he supposedly considers doing it, but when forming an opinion of RedFlavor doing it,

it is scummy

. Either it is truly scummy, and Pine bit his tongue by calling it dumb in a very conscious post, or it is dumb, and Pine's motives for suspecting RedFlavor are bunk. Changing his opinion here amounts to voting low hanging fruit. RedFlavor was basically asking for it by egging Pine on-this was before the "more awkward in gd" meme.

I like this point. I don't particularly mind Pine transitioning from thinking of it as dumb to thinking of it as scummy but it seems very sudden and quite flippant.

My conclusion:

Pine is scum.

Rather than scumhunt, he discredits. The word choice used to call NM anti-town and later scum is of note. Being called wrong about the dissonance is [a] "personal attack and credibility assassination".

I also agree that Pine hasn't been scumhunting much in his exchanges with Katya. Especially in the most recent one, Pine seems so focused on himself, reiterating the story he's telling and trying to weaponize the singermislynch that he doesn't even notice the basic question Katya's asking (i.e. why he thought that Singerpost was so townie).

Plotinus, can you talk to me more about your Katyusha and Pine reads? You don't seem to have really commented on them in the last 10 pages; is any part of the Katyavote still a Pinesheep? Can you explain your townread on Pine in a way that might convince someone else?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I'm sorry to hear about Plot's health issues and I very much hope he gets better but I don't think anyone here had any idea something like that was going on. I don't think yelling at us is going to help.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I'm sorry to hear about Plot's health issues and I very much hope he gets better but I don't think anyone here had any idea something like that was going on. I don't think yelling at us is going to help.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Like me and Plot have worked together to solve and put a lot of content in the thread.
No one has bothered to really read into that they just said we're wolves for not engaging.
That's reasoning that's really easy for a wolf to stick and hold onto because it allows them to have to avoid any real evaluation and it just looks good as a reason.

I don't think there's anything wolfy about pointing out that your slot didn't really engage with the central things happening in the game from something like page 10 to page 20. Plot barely touched the singerlynch and has mostly just let the Katya-Pine duelling wagons happen without much of an effort to influence things beyond an annoying fake hammer. It certainly doesn't reflect badly on Dunn.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

News flash: they can swap places at will, this is bad wifom at best, straight up untrue at its worst

That was true in Team Mafia but here the other one has to be dead for the swap to happen. I don't think they predicted Alisae getting quicklynched in eir game.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

@Cogito Ergo Sum what are your reads?

If I had to guess, I'd say Alisae (#644 is pretty bad given his iffy Pinehammer)) and Not_Mafia but it also feels like we should just have this game on lockdown as long as we don't do anything silly? You're town; Katya's town, so we just lynch {Alisae, Not_Mafia, CheekyTeeky} and win the game.

I'll have a reread tonight because I'd rather finish things Today and avoid LyLo all together but I doubt my reads will change substantially.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

No.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Lycan/CES, if you want to drop a hammer, can you please talk to me extensively before you do it so I can maybe make you change your mind or leave something behind so that when I actually flip town, you will lynch Dunn AND Cheeky.

Can you give me an argument for Dunnscum beyond "his attack on me is just lack of engagement"?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Btw Dunn’s entrance today followed by “As much as I want to grudge vote, I owe to to my partner to try to win” is really scummy because it comes across as scum who thought that they could lynch quickly and instead their plans to quicklynch fell apart and has no idea what to do.

Like Dunn’s play this phase in general comes across as having no idea of what to do ever since I showed up.
Not to mention, Dunn thought that all 3 of {Pine, Lycan, NM} were town yesterday and now he’s suddenly willing to lynch NM. Like isn’t that just wierd to anyone else?

Like Dunn has been fencing and posturing on like everyone early D1, like he had literally everyone as lynchable D1.
Then he pushes me and refuses to say anything about why my play was scummy and had all of his arguements refuted on why they were wrong.
Then at the start of the day, he does this shit.


Like am I banging my head against a wall here can we lynch Dunnstral please?

Here CES

That sounds more like a Seinfeld routine than anything I care about. If it's Dunn-Cheeky or whatever, the idea of what to do seems fairly obvious - just get you lynched and get into an easy LyLo (also, just don't kill Ausuka). I could only really see Dunn being scum with you.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

What do YOU care about?

Less about this whole shebang since the other game was a farce.

It's probably just Alisae-Cheeky. #628 vs. #644 alone is probably enough to justify lynching you.

========[}
{]========

Vote: Alisae

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

CES interaction with Ali/Plot here is ? He's more commentating/mediating than trying to get a read?

He never answered my question btw, just double checked.

I was going for a more conversational tone (note the use of "wolfy"!) because I assumed (incorrectly) that there was some substance behind all of Ali's bluster. I mean, Plotinus had lots of detailed thoughts and replaced out citing an inability to express himself.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Wagonomics = NM town. *Bows*

Mucho compelling.

You're just trawling for reasons to call not_mafia town because pushing me is obviously the better strategic move (or no lynch, but that's obviously not happening). You're even still pushing the Gambler's Fallacy point.

Vote: Cheeky

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

CES interaction with Ali/Plot here is ? He's more commentating/mediating than trying to get a read?

He never answered my question btw, just double checked.

I was going for a more conversational tone (note the use of "wolfy"!) because I assumed (incorrectly) that there was some substance behind all of Ali's bluster. I mean, Plotinus had lots of detailed thoughts and replaced out citing an inability to express himself.

Ok thanks for showing up. Why do you scum read myself and NM? Conversely, why do you town read Lycan/Dunn?

I appreciate the thanks, less so the shade.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Explain this? How is this a good time to be observational? This is what I mean about subtly pushing wagons. You know Kat and Pine are having a massive 1v1, and you're clearly watching the thread seeing as you're keeping up with the vote count, but rather than give a stance on either player you just point out the vote count, further exacerbating Pine's scum read on Kat (and possibly others' suspicion too) whilst doing nothing to help Kat see why she could've been in the wrong.

It was already a dumb argument. Then singer made that post which seemed like it might lead to an even dumber argument, so I pointed out the facts so we could at least be talking about the actual game.

And I gave a stance on Katya like 20 minutes later? I agree that the singerpost was scummy but it's nonsense to lump my post in with hers.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

You're just trawling for reasons to call not_mafia town because pushing me is obviously the better strategic move

Really? I think the strategic move for scum me is to push an NM lynch no? That would be an easy lynch with both you and Dunn scum reading him prior to my digging right?

If you push not_mafia first, then you just look worse Tomorrow. You need to get one of {Katya, me, Dunn} lynched; you tried pushing Katya first and that didn't go anywhere; now you're pushing me.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Oh...I keep thinking it's Mylo. And would I look worse?

Essentially. If you go hard on not_mafia and he flips town, that obviously doesn't reflect well on you. But also very concretely, if you start pushing me and {Dunn, me, Katya} got not_mafia lynched, you can start making BoP arguments more effectively tomorrow.

Why is my push on you scummy? I'm keeping communication with you open and pushing you hard as my biggest lead. If I'm wrong please help me see it by giving your stances and trying to work with me to solve

It started off scummy mainly because you weren't applying even the slightest hint of skepticism towards your not_mafia town read. E.g. #105 you called town for aggravating someone who wasn't scum reading them but answering "you" to someone asking "who" is literally the most obvious response you can give.

You seemed to ask Plot a lot of questions that you neglected to follow up with Ali.

Yarr, Ali jumped in with basically all new reads. Going over what Plotinus thought in the past with Alisae seems like an unproductive exercise in general (and certainly not something I'd do in these specific circumstances).

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I mean Kat read him as town, noone seemed to have a problem with him (except maybe Pine but look at his Plot read) until late game, which leads me to believe he's likely been left as mislynch bait.

I think there's been a reasonable amount of suspicion on not_mafia; I've certainly been suspicious of him. I think partly that hasn't developed as much because the not_mafia wagon has never had the benefit of the "free" not_mafia vote to jumpstart it.

The one thing that could be considered scummy was his multivoting but even then, why would he openly draw attention to himself like that?

Because it makes not-him lynches more likely without any sort of accountability on his part? This is why I don't buy your thought pattern; you'll gladly jump on a factual comment I made as evidence that I was secretly trying to have Katya get lynched or whatever but you'll also happily wave away not_mafia's vote on that wagon.

Ive read CES's ISO like 4 times now and I can see him manipulating Lycan slot since early game, subtly and sometimes not so subtly encouraging wagons.

I think my play this game has been pretty straightforward, so I don't know what you're talking about beyond your earlier comment on my #158 and I think #813 should put that argument to bed.

It also explains why he thinks Dunn is being shot and left Lycan out of the f4 equation in the instance of a NL.

I haven't talked about any of that.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

First you have avoided explaining why you think NM is scummy

I mean, I don't really have a strong incentive to do so. I think you're the second scum.

secondly it leads to another point that you've actually failed to take strong stances on anyone this game apart from your town read on Lycan. It reads as if you're leaving all your options open, without leaving yourself open to criticism. You have a few posts that look like questions to sort people yet you don't seem to go anywhere with what few questions you have posed.

I was definitely the main person pushing singer. Did that make me more cautious with Pine and Alisae? Sure, somewhat, not overly so.

I think if NM was scum he'd be pushing for my lynch in some way. Currently he's backed himself into calling either Lycan or CES scum. I don't see why scum NM would do that when having x player plus me as his PoE pool would be easier to achieve. Say we lynched CES and he flipped town...how would he expect to win at LyLo with everyone suspecting him, trying to lynch Lycan?

I feel like most of what you've done this game is look through ISOs and look for evidence for what seem to be pretty predetermined reads. E.g. the relevant post here is #780 - look at it in context (#778, #779) and now it's very easy to imagine not_mafiascum making that post. Same with the previous point; I can see how you can get there just reading my iso but if you read my game, I think the idea that I haven't had strong enough stances or avoiding criticism is pretty silly.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Dunn, what are your two preferred lynches?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I still think it could be Cheeky, but obviously I'd rather lynch not_mafia than myself.

Vote: not_mafia

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

At least you can both see how I'm conf town now.

I agree the nightkill points away from you (I was not looking forward to an endgame with you and Dunn) but you're definitely not conf town, the same way I wouldn't've been conftown in the Dunn-you-me endgame. If you think you should be conftown here, then why wouldn't you make the Dunnstralkill as scum?

Were you willing to hammer not_mafia Yesterday?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

the accuracy of my reads

You seemed willing to hammer not_mafia in #918 and voted both me and Lycan. You did also give some lame reasons for town reading not_mafia but I don't see how you could think this is an argument in your favour.

because I left myself at L-1 without being hammered by two players who know me well

I appreciate you letting us vote for you?

CES talk to me about Lycans interactions with Plot/Ali. Do you think they were bussing when Plot left them at L-1 for so long?

Sure. Certainly on D1 there was the notion that there was at least one scum in Pine/Katyusha; Plot-that-is-scum-with-Katya can respond to that in various ways - bussing sounds like a perfectly reasonable response. Is this question based off of Plot's iso or off of reading the game?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Disappointed, but not surprised. I figured this is what Lycanscum would do. Even pushing the silly manipulation narrative that Cheeky put forward.

Cheeky, if you just look at ISOs, you don't really see what's going on - you miss out on the big Pine-Katyusha dust-up that explains Plot's actions and when you suggest this theory of me manipulating Katya, you don't see that most of our interactions were me answering her questions.

Pine and Singer wanted CES

I think we both know that Pine and singer'd be voting you here.

I think the question you should ask yourself the following question: which of us two has been trying to read you and which one has been manipulating you?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I just meant what you talked about in #935, the fact that Plot went after Katya. Pine and Katya were doing a 1 vs 1 thing and Plotinus would've been hard-pressed not to pick a side; the fact that he went after his scum buddy in that situation doesn't surprise me.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

In fact, Plot didn't really have a choice in the matter as he'd already stated a strong townread on Pine in #141. Notably, Pine had just about started pushing Katya at this stage but Plotinus doesn't mention her and yet most of the posts she quotes in #234 in support of her Katyascumread predate #141.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

CES can you please put a vote down?

Oh, whoops, I thought I had.

Vote: Lycanfire

CES has never been at the forefront of lynches. Nothing has been his original idea.

The singerlynch is an obvious counterexample. I was pushing Cheeky Yesterday too. Try a better talking point.

Chamber's presence is this game is missing. Chamber hates mafia (the game, not the role). There's no puzzle for Chamber to solve here.

Chamber and I always do our very best to not discuss backroom stuff in-thread - it's distasteful. Same way my presence wouldn't've been visible in the other game.