Micro 892: TemporalLich's Micro Normal [Game Over]

[Klick]

I figure I should claim this sooner rather than later - Bella and I are lovers.

VOTE: Chemist
Fool me once...

[Klick]

Im all for moving out of RVs as soon as possible,

You had a perfect opportunity to make this happen by letting a few more people react to the Lover thing - why shut it down?

[Klick]

Hell yeah, he bought it Bella

[Klick]

Also, I asked you that question, not Locke! Rude.

[Klick]

It's been ages since I've seen a fake Dayvig lmao.

[Klick]

I mean, the main reason was because I found it hilarious.

There's also a reason related to getting out of RVS or something. But mostly lols.

[Klick]

viewtopic.php?p=11129464#p11129464

@locke - fair. Didn't feel like fake claiming on day one was helpful, especially with ice's reaction. I wanted to focus on his weird reaction to a 2 vote wagon

On the contrary, I feel like letting it go a bit longer would have been fairly helpful. Gives us a starting point for discussion, yeah?

Agreed that Icon's start was a bit jumpy, but I wouldn't necessarily say that's AI.

[Klick]

> says they're good RVS shenanigans
> tries to dayvig the person doing them

so we are both town

Spoiler:

Yeah I fake dayvigged someone I found was doing shenanigans

that I found scummy

whaatup?

Elaborate?

[Klick]

Hi chemist

Thoughts on shenanigans?

[Klick]

Datisi can be town. Her sorting feels genuine.

PEdit: Hi Menalque. Do you have an opinion on that question yet?

[Klick]

Datisi can be town. Her sorting feels genuine.

PEdit: Hi Menalque. Do you have an opinion on that question yet?

Which one?

Is Icon scum here, or mislynch bait? Which way are you leaning so far?

[Klick]

Menalque's words, not mine!

[Klick]

Spoiler:

Im all for moving out of RVs as soon as possible,

You had a perfect opportunity to make this happen by letting a few more people react to the Lover thing - why shut it down?

Dont see the point of pushing on bell over this.

Yes she

could

have but she didnt, and its not like its an alignment indicative thing.

I'm not going to say it is shading directly, i dont think it is, but i still dont like this post.

Hm? Why mention that if you dont think its AI at all?

The question was valid. Bella claimed to want to move out of RVS ASAP, but her actions said otherwise.

I guess i can understand it being a friendly gest between two people that know each other, but then why the fake pressure in post 22? Doesnt add up.

It wasn't fake pressure.

[Klick]

Spoiler:

Im all for moving out of RVs as soon as possible,

You had a perfect opportunity to make this happen by letting a few more people react to the Lover thing - why shut it down?

Dont see the point of pushing on bell over this.

Yes she

could

have but she didnt, and its not like its an alignment indicative thing.

I'm not going to say it is shading directly, i dont think it is, but i still dont like this post.

Hm? Why mention that if you dont think its AI at all?

Great, a wiseass.

I'd appreciate it if you could keep the snark to a minimum, especially if its going to be unfunny snark like this.

It's a genuine point against what you've said. You don't like it when I point out something that's NAI, yet you do it in the same post. I don't see how Town!you can find that scummy when you're doing the exact same thing.

I'm also rather confused by you finding me scummy, yet not scumreading me.

[Klick]

I'm not. Did you understand what i was trying to say? If you say i'm doing the exact same thing, you havent.

I'm not really sure what this means, sorry.

Why do you townread Icon?

[Klick]

To see you cry about it?

Great, a wiseass.

I'd appreciate it if you could keep the snark to a minimum, especially if its going to be unfunny snark like this.

[Klick]

I know it was fake, but you said in 51 that you dayvigged who you found scummy, so I'm a bit confused is all.

And didn't I say I thought him 'panick claiming' lovers for the least amount of pressure was scummy?

I guess what I'm missing is the 'why' on this being scummy behavior. Was it simply peculiar and something you wanted to pressure a bit? Or did you see actual scum motivation?

[Klick]

Then vote me, honestly surprised you haven't yet

Did you misread my post? Maybe I posted it weirdly?

I was agreeing with you that Bella was overdefensive there, and she's my top scumread right now but it's early for something concrete

Hihi datisi.

I'm scum reading locke. His last post to me was slightly more reassuring as he acknowledged a few mistakes but his interactions with me don't feel like someone who's actively paying attention to the thread. I also think his interactions with ice feel wrong on this page.

I'm not actually scum reading ice. I'm not sure why he's locked on to 'omgus'. His posting on this page feels a bit...scattered, but genuine and the overall thought process about the vig seems legit.

You and menalqe look the most town, but as I said, I'm cautious about you.

I'm negatively reading dong, but am aware it might be more based on posting style ,- it's a slot I need to read more.

I'm super null on most people. I've only played f2f with klick (got him turbo lynched the one time he was scum). Noone else has posted enough to read.

And this, my friends, is what we call Fencesitting

Tbh both of these posts look equally like fencesitting.

[Klick]

Hihi datisi.

I'm scum reading locke. His last post to me was slightly more reassuring as he acknowledged a few mistakes but his interactions with me don't feel like someone who's actively paying attention to the thread. I also think his interactions with ice feel wrong on this page.

I'm not actually scum reading ice. I'm not sure why he's locked on to 'omgus'. His posting on this page feels a bit...scattered, but genuine and the overall thought process about the vig seems legit.

You and menalqe look the most town, but as I said, I'm cautious about you.

I'm negatively reading dong, but am aware it might be more based on posting style ,- it's a slot I need to read more.

I'm super null on most people.

I've only played f2f with klick (got him turbo lynched the one time he was scum). Noone else has posted enough to read.

Bolded seems like the natural progression of winding up with a bunch of reads early on that you're not confident in.

Leaning town on Bella, I could easily see this being her town game.

[Klick]

Dong, what are your reads?

[Klick]

Thanks menalqr, appreciate the response.

@locke, what made that defensive for you, rather than suspicious?

Thoughts on the other pages?

@datisi, this is what I do day one - I ask a lot of questions. I'm trying to get a read on people, not necessarily direct the thread.

Could just be that I'm bias against people voting people voting them on page 1, almost always seems at least a little OMGUS to me. I know I certainly didn't seen any reason to find his reasoning fake as you put it
Overall liking datisi, always like an active sorter, klick is there, not really sure how to feel about him at the moment, liked menal's entrance, chemist is mostly nothing at the moment, pot calling kettle black I know, dong's funny so my read maybe bias but leaning town currently. And the rest of your posts don't make me feel more inclined to consider you town so I'mma keep my vote on you

To see you cry about it?

'
Could just be that I'm bias against people voting people voting them on page 1, almost always seems at least a little OMGUS to me. I know I certainly didn't seen any reason to find his reasoning fake as you put it'

Where did this happen?
You really think he thought he had a legit reason to place a serious vote, rather than something mainly created to move out of RVs?
Thoughts on menalqe's post on datisi and her scum play?

I mean his reasoning was "seems opportunistic" so it reads to me like a gut feeling that he followed very early so as to move out of RVS. So from my pov it looks like a bit of both.

I'm sure he's right about her scum play, afterall he's played a game with her, so she will be one to keep an eye on throughout the game

Datisi and Bella feel town to me. I'm beginning to lean that way with Dong as well - I'm having trouble gelling with Dong's thought process and I didn't like Dong's comment earlier about 'going through the motions' (that is the opposite of what you should be doing as town), but despite that, the motivation behind Dong's posting seems to be sorting.

I'm annoyingly null on Icon and I'd like that to change soon. Other than that, I need to see more from everyone else before I can get a decent read.

[Klick]

Whoops, quotes

[Klick]

which would have been understandable since quite frankly if I wasn't me I'd be voting me right now,

Expand on this, please.

[Klick]

Do you feel like that's a mistake that scum are more likely to make than town?
How did that mistake happen?

[Klick]

Oh shit, week-long Days?
I think i'm still fine with my vote here for right now. I want more from Chemist, and there isn't a better place for it right now.

[Klick]

Icon where u at

Menalque, could you sum up what it is that makes you think Dong is scum? I agree with you that a lot of what Dong says is inconsistent, but I'm not getting the sense that Dong would be playing it differently as town.

[Klick]

I think I want to lynch in [Chemist, Locke, Heaven, Icon] today.

[Klick]

I have townreads on Bella/Datisi/Dong. I'm not sure on you (I think I'm a bit paranoid because I was impressed by your play in Pokemon Ruby Mafia), but I like your posting so far and if you're town I'd like you around longer.

So by PoE, I could see two scum in that group pretty easily.

[Klick]

You had a null read Icon in 168, has that changed?

Not really?
It's complicated - I'm null on him, but equally I feel like out of everyone I'm null on, he'd have given me a reason to feel otherwise by this point if he were town. His posts just feel

odd

- whereas my other null reads don't feel any particular way.

I guess you could say I'm null-leaning-scum on Icon without much to back it up other than gut?

I'm curious, out of your lynchpool who do you think would mostly to be scum partners?

I can't give any meaningful answer to that. Chemist and Heaven are too inactive for associatives with anyone, and I don't lean one way or another about a theoretical Locke/Icon team. There hasn't been nearly enough going on yet for associatives.

[Klick]

@klick, you said chemist had fooled you once...am I to assume his scum game was more convincing than this? Everything he posts makes me want to lynch him today - does anyone have experience of him as town?

So the only time I played with Chemist, he was scum and I had a pretty strong townread on him until I replaced out. I thought he was town because he didn't seem to be pushing any sort of agenda/I felt like he would be trying to actively convince more as scum. But from what I can tell now, he plays passively as either alignment and I have no idea how to read him.
Therefore, with a decent amount of townreads in-hand today, I feel like he would be a pretty good lynch.

Locke's posting on this page has been pretty good. I think he transparently cares about a lot of things he wouldn't bother with as scum.

[Klick]

@TL: Can we get a prod on Icon?

Datisi, where's your mind at currently?

[Klick]

What this game really needs is nine slots that are actively posting.

Bella come talk to meeeeee. I know your Locke read has changed over the last few pages - anything else change/update?

[Klick]

How/when did Icon enter the top pile?

[Klick]

Also in regard to 83 and 84, not sure how you come out with TRing Bella over Klick? I don't find the posts you listed in 84 as particularly scummy. Also, while both their posting at the start of the day was null-ish, I don't think Bella's further posting has been especially great.

I dont tr bella, nor do i sr klick. I'm going through the motions, i think saying that i have strong reads on either would be stretching it right now. I do have a townread on ico however.

I mentioned bella because in the Bellaxklick discussion i thought she was by far acting more genuine compared to klick.

Not gonna fly with just saying the last posts are bad, provide examples if you want this cart rolling.

I think this post is particularly towny in context. After saying I was scummy, Dong clarifies that it doesn't have a scumread on me - Dong just saw a singular scummy event that didn't paint an overall picture of Dong's read on me.
That feels like insight into Dong's mindset that Dong!scum doesn't bother to make.

[Klick]

@Menalque:

I don't think I can accurately read Chemist - in Ruby I felt as though he

was

doing things and trying to solve in his own way/by his own time, and that was a big part of my townread on him there. I'm not married to the idea of lynching him, so if you want to leave him today that's fine. I don't really think it's a smart idea to leave him until a potential LyLo situation though - I've learned my lesson from the last game I played that just because lurkers can be lynchbait sometimes doesn't mean they can't be scum.

Straight-up, I don't think Dong ever types the words 'I'm going through the motions' if Dong is scum. There's a level of nuance there that Dong doesn't

need

and I don't think clarifying that benefits him at all from a scum perspective. Looking at things from just a positional standpoint, I can see keeping your options open being a useful scum tactic - but I can't see it being presented in the way it was.
Like, try to imagine you're Dong, you're scum trying to survive, and writing Post 97. I struggle to put myself in that scenario.

Oh, and last point: I kinda doubt that there’s two scum in (locke, heaven, chem, icon) because that would mean that if we kept going that way we’d have a 50/50 on lynching scum D1 which is almost always a loss in a micro and I feel like there hasn’t particularly been a push to lead the game away from that pool

So I think prob only 1 scum in that group

I'm confused by this post. Do you think anyone out of that group of four is in a position to push away from that group in the first place? Heaven/Chemist aren't contributing, Locke has been spending time addressing the pressure towards himself, and Icon hasn't been around the last couple of days. In most scum pairings within that set, I don't see much of a change in current play.

[Klick]

I'd probably be okay to take a shot at Heaven today? The town is towny enough

[Klick]

If Heaven is scum, when is a more appropriate time to lynch them?
If Heaven is town and continues at this level of activity, how are we going to avoid mislynching them later?

I think Menalque is trying to control the narrative of the game in a way that is NAI at the moment. I felt a bit odd early on about him shutting down my Datisi townread, but his explanation for it was reasonable and I can see it coming from town. His push on you is logical. Overall he's giving lots of content we can use to help read him later on, and I don't have sufficient reason to want to lynch him today.

[Klick]

Yes, but if Heaven is town and continues to not post, how are we going to achieve our wincon? We're going to struggle to read their slot later on regardless, because they aren't doing anything. If anything we'll struggle more, because we'll know nothing about a slot that may or may not be vital to cooperate with if we want to win.

I think Mena is solving tbh? Like I can see what you're seeing but I think it's a playstyle thing. In fact, it's different to how he was when I played with him when he was scum - when he came in, he took hard stances and was fairly aggressive.

[Klick]

Tbh I think this is transparently my town game and I'm surprised you of all people don't see it.
In regards to the whole 'easy lynch' thing, it's convenient that what's easy happens to correlate with what's likely to be right. Idk, maybe I'm paranoid after last game where the scum were the two least active players. But I am genuinely getting town vibes from most of the active posters. You and Dong are my strongest townreads. Locke seems genuine. I could see myself being wrong about Datisi I guess? But I don't think so.
I've talked in detail about my feelings on Menalque just recently, and I'd wager if he were scum his partner is in [Chemist, Heaven]. His posting gives off the impression that he'd be carrying whatever scumteam he's in. But I'm leaning town on him and feel as though this game will be better off if he's not lynched today.

By PoE on my reads alone I'm left with [Icon, Chemist, Heaven] as likely scum. I don't particularly care how easy it seems - it feels right to me. Avoiding 'easy' lynches got town into a trap last time I played and I'd rather not go down that path again.

[Klick]

Consider my vote split into thirds on Icon, Chemist, and Heaven simultaneously.

[Klick]

You've mentioned having a feeling of construction about a few players. I think that's a quirk the current meta as opposed to a scumtell - I've seen several town players lately with a really structured way of posting/approaching the game that feels inherently fabricated at first. Ofrhz did it in Pokemon Ruby, and I got the same vibe from Emperor flippyNips in my last game. Dong is doing it a lot here too, and I think Dong is town. It's a struggle sorting through what parts of that are today's playstyle and what parts of that are actually scumtells.

PEdit: I'm processing your Datisi stuff rn. I do see what you mean, and I could see scum!Datisi trying to clearly project her read of you as something complex and ever-changing. It's not really unlike how she played last time and what I've read of her past games, though.
My Datisi townread has progressed to be one of my less strong reads, but I'm still leaning town there.

[Klick]

Also, the smiley is there because I know I'm being a bit cheeky saying you should townread me here. I do mean it though - I think if you ISO me you'll see my thought process pretty clearly from a town perspective.

[Klick]

Dong, I don't necessarily think you're on the wrong track, but I disagree with your reasoning and with the idea of Menalque being a good lynch today.

Heres what i see:
Menalq is pretty much confirmed scum to me. Him putting words into my mouth and cutting parts of my quotes to fit a narrative is bad enough,

Are these things typical of scum play? Do you have a read on Menalque as someone who would purposefully do that as scum?

I can pretty clearly see how he has come to the conclusions he has about you. The problem is that you've used the wording '

a

readslist on page 8 is troubling', provided context, and then given support for that context without actually ever supporting the original claim that 'a readslist on page 8 is troubling'. You still haven't given a good reason to think that. You're claiming you meant something else entirely, but that doesn't match up with the words you've said.

I don't think it's a convincing argument myself, but I can definitely see town!Menalque thinking so.

on top of that he has been very wishy washy in posts like 246, where he just makes statements without much backing them. His chemist and ico reads seem ingenuine to me and overall i cant see town making the posts he made. Besides, he is townreading chemist but he hasnt bothered to actually persuade us why and seeing as he is a player nearing the lynching block i see this as more of a "see i told you" after he flips town rather than trying to save or work together with him.

With the amount of content Icon and Chemist have given, I don't have a huge problem with either of those reads. I agree that they're wishy-washy but frankly I'd be more surprised if he had a hard and fast stance on either of them.

[Klick]

Let me ask it this way:

Why mention 'a readslist on page 8'

at all

? What significance does it have?

I think that's the root of what Menalque is suspicious of.

[Klick]

So what does his scum game look like?

[Klick]

Vex, I'm going to assume you made most of your quotes/questions as you were reading without reading ahead? Because I think everything you asked me goes on to be answered in the posts shortly after the quote.

If you're town, then Icon/Chemist are a good place to look for scum - I'd expect at least one there, if not both.

[Klick]

Then vote me, honestly surprised you haven't yet

Did you misread my post? Maybe I posted it weirdly?

I was agreeing with you that Bella was overdefensive there, and she's my top scumread right now but it's early for something concrete

This is definitely fencesitting, just as much as Bella's post was. 'I have a scumread but I'm immediately going to lower the impact of it.'

Yeah it's completely natural to be null on everyone. Not. However, how is it that your thoughts are like this:

Person X doesn't have strong reads and calls a lot of players null. That means this person is town. Doesn't make sense, bro.

At page 7... I think it

is

fairly natural to be null on most of the game? Especially when playing in a meta you're largely unfamiliar with.

I have a townread on Bella because I can clearly see her thought process and feel a level of nuance in her reads that I don't think would be there were she scum. I'm probably assisted in making that read by knowing her very well.

Your views in this game surprisingly lack nuance in a way that I'm finding scummy.

Ugh. It feels a lot like you really *wanna* lynch me, but can't cook up enough reasons to justify it. Fortunately for you, I think scum would actually try to make up more reasons, so this could be town :s

I mean, you're right. My gut is telling me to try and lynch you today, and now that you've come back I'm starting to process the reasons behind that gut feeling.

Both of these posts are awfull. Pushing the single most inactive slot in the game just for a lynch is terrible.
Same as with me, you seem to be going after the low hangers this game. Why?

I was really clear about this in a post shortly after those two I'm pretty sure? With my townreads on Bella/Dong/Datisi/Locke, it's highly likely to me that scum are in the remainder.


@everyone, but particularly Datisi and Menalque:

I think Icon is scum and I'd like to lynch him today. The biggest thing bothering me about his posts here are that they feel... empty. Sort of devoid of meaningful content, in a way that I didn't feel last game. Early-game I felt something was off, and I think the problem was that it looked like he was

pretending

to sort. I think he's trying, and failing, to emulate certain parts of his town game.

I've read a few of his town games and a scum game, but you two seem to have more hands-on experience with him. I feel like there's something here. If you see it too, I encourage you to back this. But if you're not seeing it at all, that's fine too, but I'd like to sort through it with one/both of you.

VOTE: Icon

[Klick]

How is calling someone your top scumread fencesitting, please?

It's more interesting to me how you townread Bella off of nullreads, moresow then Bella actually having nullreads which is mildly interesting at best.

Bella made her reads extremely clear in Post 144. She just used words that were easy to pick at. Her thought process is obvious to anyone looking for it.

This is, what, the third time you've said the reason I townread Bella is because of her having nullreads? I've repeatedly said otherwise.

You gave yourself an out with your Locke read in the same post you made it. For the purposes of scum, that's glorified fencesitting.

[Klick]

The more toxic the Dong/Menalque exchange gets, the less motivated I am to have anything to do with this game. And 99% of that is Dong's fault. That's from the perspective of someone who thinks this is TvT.

Might come back to this later tonight, but yeah. I'm not having it.

[Klick]

UNVOTE:

okay so it's this kind of game lol

ftr i fully believe that claim because of

reasons

UNVOTE:

[Klick]

If it's any consolation, I think you come out of the exchange looking fairly towny and we can now move on and lynch actual scum

[Klick]

If Heaven is scum, when is a more appropriate time to lynch them?
If Heaven is town and continues at this level of activity, how are we going to avoid mislynching them later?

I think Menalque is trying to control the narrative of the game in a way that is NAI at the moment. I felt a bit odd early on about him shutting down my Datisi townread, but his explanation for it was reasonable and I can see it coming from town. His push on you is logical. Overall he's giving lots of content we can use to help read him later on, and I don't have sufficient reason to want to lynch him today.

Curious about what you think I was doing up to that point that was trying to control the game narrative, particularly compared to others. Like I haven’t had enough time to post here to really try and control the narrative I don’t think.

Early on you tried to talk me down from an early solid TR on Datisi. And I'd consider your Dong vote/reasoning the only solid push in the game up to that point.
A fair bit of it is probably just my perspective, though - I get the vibe from reading your posts that you're more of a leader than others, particularly in this game. Regardless of whether that's something you're trying to do or not.

[Klick]

Chemist, how am I supposed to read you? Because I legit can't see a difference between this game and Ruby.

[Klick]

...

Tbh I think Icon is the type of player who would just roll with it and not kill Dong at night if he were scum here. Not certain on that but I guess I'll leave this bullshit for tomorrow.

I'm around basically all day to place a vote but idk what I want to do with it yet.

[Klick]

chemists vote on me is bad.
im fine with lynching dong, however, site issues might just slow down stuff even further.

VOTE: dong

L-1

This post is really, really bad
VOTE: Vex

[Klick]

Oh wait, you only saw the deadline at the top of the post and thought we had 3-4 hours left in the day, didn't you? That makes that post make a lot more sense.

UNVOTE:
I've gone wrong somewhere.

[Klick]

Neither of those sound like sufficient reasons to lynch Dong, especially since you were leaning town on Dong before all this.

[Klick]

Take a step back for a second and tell me how many times out of 100 you expect Dong to flip scum if we lynch him today.

Because I'd say 1, maaaaybe 2.

[Klick]

Menalque's frustration with you was genuine and I'm pretty strongly convinced it was town-motivated.

Tell me what the SCUM motivation is in him butting heads like this with you today. I know you're saying he's putting words in your mouth and trying to spin his own narrative to get you lynched. But he really doesn't have to double down like that and bring attention to himself if he's scum here, and in fact it's much more likely that he'd sit around in the sidelines letting the easy lynch happen. Because he wasn't in any danger of getting lynched today until he got into this fight with you.

This level of stubbornness on both sides comes from town so much more often than scum. And I'd wager both of the actual scum are sitting on the sidelines letting this trainwreck happen.

[Klick]

Sorry, were you trying to get yourself lynched in your chats with menalq?

I hate chemists latest post, it feels incredibly fake. And bothers BN me for -reasons-. I want to leave the dong/icon nonsense for tomorrow and just lynch probable scum, instead of messy.

I'm not seeing that in particular tbh? It feels to me like Chemist saw the deadline, went 'oh shit', and voted for a slot he felt was both scummy and lynchable. And I don't necessarily disagree with a Vex lynch today.

[Klick]

I also think I was too early to cross off Bella and that she could plausibly be in the 'scum taking advantage of the Mena/Dong fight' category.

With the assumption of this Mena/Dong argument being one big distraction, I'm left with a PoE list of Bella, Chemist, Locke, Vex, and Datisi. Chemist/Vex isn't feeling particularly likely at this point based on Chemist's push - I don't think he panic-limps into a wagon on his scumbuddy (and I'm not getting the impression that he's resigned to his own lynch either).

Therefore, I think there's at least one scum in Bella/Datisi/Locke. I'd also argue that those three have managed to benefit most from the Mena/Dong dichotomy, staying relatively out of the discussion.

[Klick]

Okay that one was pretty funny

You're still both town though.

[Klick]

(busy rn, no time for a real response)

[Klick]

I mean yes, you have pinpointed my exact frustrations about the Dong/Menalque debacle. They're both arguing about things that are ultimately pointless and either NAI or even more likely to come from town than scum. But in the thought experiment where we're forced to assume one of them is scum, it'd be Menalque over Dong.
I think Menalque is just (understandably) frustrated that Dong is getting away with the shit he's getting away with, and it's frazzling him and putting him off his game.

(@Datisi/Icon)

I'm drawing heavy comparisons between Menalque/Dong here and Luca/Tchill from last game (and it also feels a bit similar to the argument Icon and I had early D2 when I felt his actions were unjustifiable from a town perspective).

I still think you!scum benefits massively from the huge distraction that is the Dong/Menalque argument, especially since you were getting some minor pressure earlier in the Day.

I wouldn't consider Vex relatively

un

lynchable. Vex having zero votes on him isn't that relevant - no one had votes on them except Dong, Menalque, and Chemist himself. I've shown willingness to vote the Vex slot and no one has really expressed a townread there.

Expand on your last point. And also on your read on me in general.

PEdit: that list sure does contain a lot of anti-town things. I've (unfortunately) seen town do many of those things. Hell, last game town-Tchill fake-claimed Tracker in Lylo to spite town-Icon fake-claiming Cop earlier in the game.

Menalque, the problem is that in an ideal world, the things you're saying Dong is scum for should be scumtells. But on forum dot mafiascum dot net, some of those things are far more likely to come from town with specific personality types instead of scum.

[Klick]

Apart from the pressure (I don't think I was ever in lynch zone once I started 121 with locke and dong) early day, what you've said is true for any!scum..or even both!mena-dong!scum shifting up the thread.

We've stepped away from my original point.

Dong!town and Mena!town get into a big argument. This puts all the focus on them. In this situation, where are the scum hiding and how are they reacting to this situation?

I posit that scum let the town tear themselves apart. They focus on other topics and give their occasional feedback on the situation, hoping they can get Dong and Menalque to implode with little influence on their part.

Now, who has been playing to that archetype?

Datisi's progression onto the Dong wagon isn't pretty. She goes from feeling Towny about Dong to voting Dong after Dong doesn't answer her question, and after the Mason gambit thing, she places her vote back on Dong. I'm not super convinced Datisi has put much thought into whether Dong is actually scum - her jump onto that wagon feels opportunistic and safe. She fits the bill.
Vox pretty explicitly says he thinks Mena/Dong is TvT and he doesn't want to sort there today. That changes after the Mason claim, but all in all I think his approach to the situation is null.
Locke's content has felt detached from the main narrative of the game because he's been doing recaps page-by-page. He states he's 'not impressed' by either of Mena or Dong, but he feels it's TvT. He goes on to agree with some of Dong's points against Mena and throw a bit of shade there. From the lens of someone taking advantage of the Mena/Dong argument, I think Locke looks bad.
Chemist is an interesting case. From a survivalist standpoint, I don't see why Chemist wouldn't use the Mena/Dong conflict to his advantage? He has thrown shade on Dong occasionally, but he voted Icon when push came to shove (very early in that wagon), and when that didn't seem to be an option he switched to Vex. Chemist actually leans town from this lens.
And Bella, I think your actions make plenty of sense if you're scum watching Dong/Mena implode. You townread both Dong and Mena, but don't put in much work trying to convince either of them they're on the wrong track. You talk about the game as a whole from a more passive standpoint while they continue to spam the thread with their argument. I think as scum, you let the situation play out basically like this.

So yes, I think you, Datisi and Locke all don't look great if you assume Dong and Mena are both town.

Not unlynchable, sure, but not today - I don't see the point in town lynching a slot with less content/associayives over one with more.

If you actually think that, then why is your vote on Chemist?

My last point is just ... I guess I'm surprised by how much I've followed your thought process this game and am stuck between 'that means he's town' or it just means 'hes reasonable'. I think it also means that when you do think differently (like, legit that post from chemist was shit, his content isn't great and you've kinda backed away from a lunch on him without me being able to really pinpoint -why-) it rings alarm bells.

Have I backed away from a lynch on Chemist? Before this post, I mean. It's not a terrible lynch, but I'm questioning whether it's ideal/whether others are more likely to flip scum.

The post you think is scummy by Chemist seems NAI to me on its own. I see 'survivalistic', and I think town!Chemist and scum!Chemist are both survivalistic in this position.

[Klick]

Like, yes, anti-town stuff can come from town. But if you actually think that it’s anti-town you should lynch it every fucking time because it’s going against wincon

Like what, would you be listening to me more this game if I’d just fucking trolled for like 18 pages? Because that’s honestly the impression I’m getting

Who won that game you’re talking about with Luca/tchill btw? Right. Seems like doing blatantly anti-town things crazily seems to correlate with town losing, but somehow those things get a pass if “certain players” do them

I'm not going to go against wincon in this game by voting someone I strongly believe to be town just because they are doing anti-town stuff.
Anti-town stuff comes with the meta these days. You either have to adjust your standards of play or make sure you're playing with people who won't be anti-town.

[Klick]

I can't remember exactly (and maybe I wasn't actually reading carefully oops), what's the comparison? Other than the obvious "argument that keeps on going".

Was your and Icon's argument about him fakeclaiming Cop? (I'd go check, but MS machine is broke.) If so, I feel like there's a difference between fakeclaiming Cop when you're a Loyal Mailman (which is basically a stronger, more flavorful Cop) and fakeclaiming Masons when you're not a Mason, then claiming some mysterious role things that justify it.

Tchill-town and Luca-town get really set in their views. Tchill fakeclaims to get his scumread pushed through(/to spite Icon). Luca is convinced Tchill has to be lying and therefore must be scum, and can't see it any other way, especially since he think LUV has to be town. They go back and forth arguing that the other person is ridiculous until gobble/LUV swoop in for the hammer.

Icon-town and Klick-town get really set in their views. Icon fakeclaims. Klick can't see the town motivation and therefore assumes Icon must be scum. Icon can't see how Klick could come to that conclusion, decides that means Klick must be scum. We go back and forth arguing that the other person is ridiculous until I have reason to question the situation.

Dong and Menalque get really set in their views...

That's the parallel I'm seeing. I think they've both slotted into those positions as stubborn personalities in a way that feels town-indicative.

[Klick]

I think you run with the Mason claim as scum, and Dong seems to have role-related reasons to think so.

Bella and Datisi were both uncomfortable/defensive at the suggestion that they might be in a good position if they're scum here. I'm feeling at least one scum there and I'd vote either of them today at this point if anyone else felt like going there.

But I guess this is better than the current alternatives:
VOTE: Chemist

I'll be around to vote later today if needed.

[Klick]

I'll reread her in a bit and if I'm not fairly convinced she's town I'll go for it.

[Klick]

I'd like to look at this tomorrow but actually I don't think we get five town on Bella in 11 hours even if she's scum.

Join me on Chemist. Out of the three wagons, this one plausibly hits scum.

[Klick]

Klick - trib no. Read me overnight, and I'll r e-read you. It's a back of my head tingling, but I'm open to the possibility I'm just paranoid - why isn't that the same for you? Also, can you explain your chemist progression? It was very recently you were throwing shade at me for doing...basically what you just did, for similar reasons

You're making several confusing assumptions about my mindset recently. What gave you the impression that I'm not open to the possibility of being paranoid?
My willingness to lynch you today was much less about your own play and more about the fact that you're very likely to flip red if Mena/Dong are both town. I think scum is laying low in the battlefield Mena/Dong have created and I think you fit into that spot pretty well.

I'm confused by your last point. I'm not ecstatic about a Chemist lynch - I don't think he's particularly scummy - but I could feasibly see him flipping red here, which is better than what I can say for Dong or Mena. Based on his own content there are a couple of places where I slightly lean town on him. His recent content has been good and feels like town giving reads and trying to solve, but I don't think it's necessarily out of his scum range.

[Klick]

Oh, by the last comment, did you mean trying to achieve any lynch that wasn't Mena or Dong? Because I'm pretty sure I didn't shade you for that?

[Klick]

You're getting particularly defensive at what was basically me reconsidering my townread on you and it's making me uneasy.

[Klick]

I think you should go ahead and post whatever you found out from your reread, Bella. Or at least initial impressions from it.

[Klick]

Tchill played far more anti-town in that game than either LUV or the A50 slot, and he was bleeding town. I had to keep reminding myself that he wouldn't play the way he was playing as scum.

Regardless, Dong's explanation for his behavior is fucking terrible and I'm starting to question how many more fucks I give.

Ill probably feel a bit better about it tomorrow when I'm not a bit drunk though.

[Klick]

And besides, i have something that will make me confirmed town at an instant. So im not worried about you pushing me for now. Push me to l-1 if you want to, just know that nothing will come out of it.

VOTE: Dongempire

Nah I'm sick of you withholding shit. You're going to show your cards now or get lynched.

[Klick]

@klick, disagree hard about the dong thing - it was pretty clear at the time what he was doing and why so his explanation has just...confirmed what I was thinking

Not really sure what this is in reference to?

Also Dong are you going to explain why you waited for Bella?

PEdit: No, I'm not playing your game anymore. I think you're town but I'm also starting to think that if I'm right about that then this game is probably a loss. You're going to stop flagrantly withholding things, or you are going to get lynched.

[Klick]

Klick why are you changing your stance on dong now after hard defneind him D1?

I haven't. I still think he's town and if he stops fucking around and starts working with us I will continue to defend him.

[Klick]

So your vote was a pressure vote that prett clearly wasn’t a pressure vote because you were never actually likely to lynch him and he had no reason to think you would?

No - if he doesn't stop screwing around now, I'm going to stop giving him the benefit of the doubt and lynch him regardless of my read on him. I'm near the point where I think the odds of Dong flipping scum outweigh the odds of town winning this game if Dong is town.

[Klick]

UNVOTE:

Tbh in that position I'd have just said nothing and made no fuss at all about Bella, and just silently assumed she was town.

Bella, if you protected anyone but Dong then this game's in a pretty good place.

[Klick]

If i was a rolecop i wouldnt even bother with revealing her role and just kill her at night

this

Today's lynch is in [Datisi, Vex, Saudade]. We're going to work on couple's counseling for Dong and Menalque over the next couple of Days so that we can actually lynch correctly in the increasingly-likely 4p MyLo of me/Dong/Menalque/(scum).

[Klick]

I wouldn't be opposed to a massclaim tbh. We had such fun with it last time

[Klick]

Menalque, what motivation does scum!Dong have to say anything at all about the info he got about Bella today?

PEdit: You're really not reading the room. You're not getting lynched today. And even if you did and you flipped town, Dong wouldn't get lynched tomorrow.

[Klick]

I have a strong TR on datisi

You should expand on this. Do you have any reasons outside of interaction with Dong?

[Klick]

Dong has claimed Follower, and he saw Bella use a Protective action last night. The Mason claim was a troll claim.
Bella has claimed Doctor.

[Klick]

Menalque, what motivation does scum!Dong have to say anything at all about the info he got about Bella today?

PEdit: You're really not reading the room. You're not getting lynched today. And even if you did and you flipped town, Dong wouldn't get lynched tomorrow.

Literally exactly the way he’s played it. He’s gonna go for the one other person who’s calling him scum (who I’m p sure he hasn’t actually done dick to case btw, just said “oh I didn’t like her EoD”), then tomorrow he’ll revert to “I’m pretty sure mena’s scum and as it’s mylo we should lynch there”)

Why do you think there’s clearly such a strong motivation for him to not reveal it and just NK her tomorrow?

This hasn't really addressed my question at all. Why does he claim anything about any info he got on Bella? All it does is confirm Bella as town (unless she's Dong's partner). I don't see any scum motivation in it.

[Klick]

Dong has claimed Follower, and he saw Bella use a Protective action last night. The Mason claim was a troll claim.
Bella has claimed Doctor.

combined with no night kill, with Ico as Bellas target right?

Correct.

What mechanics conf town Bella

The fact that dong is claiming a protective and she confirmed it and having targeted icon who didn’t die last night

I highly doubt scum gambit there

Im not claiming a protective

I clearly meant protective result

That's not really clear to Saudade, who hasn't read the thread. I'd say it was worth pointing out?

[Klick]

Technically Dong isn't clear. He's claimed Follower, but there's nothing confirming him.

He's town though so that's a fine assumption

[Klick]

Technically Dong isn't clear. He's claimed Follower, but there's nothing confirming him.

He's town though so that's a fine assumption

Unless there's a 3rd PR claim I think a doc+follower is a reasonable town pr set

Agreed, which is why I'm fine with a massclaim at this point.

Menalque, would you be opposed to massclaim? That might make things a bit more clear.

[Klick]

{Myself, bella, dong}

{mena}

{klick, datisi}

{}

- Null

{}

{ico}

{sauce}

bella and dong are confirmed via claim, altho i feel like dong could potentially be scum. thats a tinfoil thought i really dont wanna think about rn tbh.

@dong

Did you catch that Icon was Bella's target last night?

[Klick]

Mena, I'd be fine with just a tl;dr on your Datisi townread if that would be simpler.

[Klick]

Can you give me a snapshot/a reason to think you already have this opinion outside of thinking she can't be Dong's partner?

[Klick]

yeah i have a PR on top of neighbour
i don't see a point in claiming it until EoD tho

If this PR has any real significance, then I'd argue that should heavily affect your view of Dong and/or Bella. Three decent PRs is townsided in a Micro, particularly by cfj's standards.

Talk to me about your lynchpool? Is it just that you have a townread on Datisi/Vex, or?

[Klick]

Locke wasn't particularly scummy, and his ISO has sorting in it. Why would anyone want to lynch good ol' Saud today?

I'm going back and forth on my Locke read. I thought his interaction early on in D1 with Bella looked towny initially (where he basically went 'welp I fucked up sorry'), but I'm reconsidering that - I don't think there are many other ways he could have handled that situation as either alignment. Reading his contributions towards the end of D1, I felt as though a lot of his posting was detached from the narrative of the game. It felt like he was avoiding interacting with people beyond a surface-level read. I don't have a huge problem with the idea of him being scum here.

Why do you think he looks town?
Why do you think Datisi looks town?
Why do both of these now seem to outweigh your previous townread on me?

I'd also really appreciate you at least giving an idea of how strong your PR is. If it's anything more than 'minimal' then that introduces balance problems if all three of you/Bella/Dong are legit.

[Klick]

Also you forgot the Vex slot existed.

[Klick]

I'm a VT.

Doctor/Messenger/Neighbor-Enabler (with a town-scum neighborhood)... My gut says this is scumsided.
Follower makes a bit more sense as a Town role here imo. And it makes sense theoretically - if the Enabler dies then the Messenger still has a way of communicating results with the Follower.
Throw in something like a Mafia Traffic Analyst and you have a wacky-yet-balanced setup.

[Klick]

Okay Klick and Datisi

Why don't the both of you make a PoE list with the currently available information?

Tbh at this point I just think the scumteam is Vex/Saudade. Datisi's claim is super clean and I don't think it's scum.

VOTE: Vex

[Klick]

VC 1.12

Chemist1422 (5) - Locke113, Bellaphant, Klick, Iconeum, Dongempire

[LYNCH!]

Dongempire (4) - Datisi, Vex Vience, Menalque, Chemist1422

[L-1]

Not voting:

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 will end in (expired on 2019-10-02 15:00:00) or when a lynch is reached.

Menalque is V/LA until Wednesday evening.

And, on top of that PoE, who should we lynch ON-wagon based off of that information? Because what are the odds this is an all-town lynch?

Ignoring PoE I'd actually say the odds of Chemist being an all-town lynch are high enough,

especially

if Dong is town. The wagons were 5/4 and you/Bella are clear. Do you think scum needed to join a Chemist wagon in order to push their agenda yesterday?

[Klick]

VC 1.12

Chemist1422 (5) - Locke113, Bellaphant, Klick, Iconeum, Dongempire

[LYNCH!]

Dongempire (4) - Datisi, Vex Vience, Menalque, Chemist1422

[L-1]

Not voting:

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 will end in (expired on 2019-10-02 15:00:00) or when a lynch is reached.

Menalque is V/LA until Wednesday evening.

And, on top of that PoE, who should we lynch ON-wagon based off of that information? Because what are the odds this is an all-town lynch?

Ignoring PoE

I'd actually say the odds of Chemist being an all-town lynch are high enough,

especially

if Dong is town. The wagons were 5/4 and you/Bella are clear. Do you think scum needed to join a Chemist wagon in order to push their agenda yesterday?

Basically the point I'm making is that 'there has to be 1 scum on the Chemist wagon' isn't valid on its own. Taking my reads out of the picture, I see no problems with five town deciding to lynch Chemist yesterday.

[Klick]

Tbh with Datisi's claim and her clearly knowing about the neighbors, I don't think Datisi kills Icon last night.

[Klick]

Eh, it's very unlikely I think, but definitely possible.

Well assuming you're town it's significantly less possible - the only option left for two scum off the wagon is Vex/Menalque

Thoughts on PR stuff? I struggle to see the balance in Doctor/Messenger/Neighbor-Enabler being the only town power (unless anyone else is planning on claiming).

[Klick]

Dong is toxic, and anti-town, and on a shitty omgus tunnel from D1 but also, irritatingly, town

Explain how you came to that conclusion so simply after over a week of badgering about you/Dong being TvT.

[Klick]

I'm glad you finally came around

Further extrapolate that my actions today/at the end of D1 make very little sense from the perspective of scum with either Vex or Saudade, and you arrive at the solve.

[Klick]

I can understand that point of view. And honestly, on a surface level, I could easily see myself wanting to keep you and Dong around and fighting as long as possible if I were scum and you two were town. It's what I said scum would be wanting to do towards the end of yesterday.

It wouldn't look quite like this though. I've actively argued towards this eventual PoE pool that includes myself (and presumably my partner). If I'm scum, I've argued myself into a losing position under the current assumptions when things would otherwise have been going just fine. I can't really see myself doing that.

[Klick]

I think Vex's current level of effort is NAI - he's already said he has something more important that he's paying attention to over this for right now.

[Klick]

I struggle with obtaining a non-PoE read on Vex. I think I just struggle with obtaining *scumreads* in general (see last game lmao). Vex/Korina plays significantly differently from the average site user that I don't really know how to go about reading him on his own.

That being said, the one thing that's really pinged me about Vex was his lazy Dong vote at the end of D1. I originally let it pass as something he did because he thought there were only a few hours left before deadline, but then he argued for it. The reasons he used felt super baseline in a way that seemed like he hadn't actually thought about whether what he saw made Dong scum.

PEdit: Datisi, do you think if Vex is scum in this situation but also super busy with a group project, he's more likely to ignore his project to engage with the game than if he was town?

[Klick]

{myself}

{mena}

{datisi, bella}

{dong, chem, klick}

- Null

{ico}

{locke}

{}

heres where im at with reading. ill post my catchup in a bit, but:
mena seems townie from the last game we played.
datisi seems townie, but i cant shake the feeling that datisi is playing scum like last game
bella i came around to tring later
dong ive been shifting reads on, and im currently leaning null-town
chem i cant read in general, kinda thinking hes town-ish.
klick im hovering around null on. im not really getting pinged strongly one way or another
ico pinged me as scummy early on and with them just lurking now it hasn't really changed
locke i need to read more deeply, but at the surface, its pinging me as scummy.
im obviously

town

cult.

Can we also talk about this readslist? It's actually kinda bad...

Puts Datisi on top of townlist DESPITE Datisi 'playing scum like last game'??
Hedging reads on Dong and Klick
He can't read chemist but still, townread.

Incredibly surface level reads all over, with not a single one explained how he got there.

He also put both myself and then Dong back to back to L-1...

Vex, what was scummy about Locke (your D1 scumread that you never voted), and your D2 scumread in Saudude?

Tbf Vex did say his Chemist townlean was for reasons he couldn't talk about.
But the surface-level feeling you're seeing is kinda similar to what I saw towards the end of D1 with his Dong vote. Not exactly the same, but similar.

[Klick]

Heres the plan: we abandon both vex and saudade wagons, give saud more time to play the game as i was townreading locke spot, i make a case on menalque, we close the book on that chapter. Townbloc, what are your thoughts?

No because you're both town

[Klick]

ik ive been lurking because of the project, but like, how tf does this post come from town?

Well your fos is voting me so you should vote vex just to spite him

Vex and Saudade are cross-bussing in an attempt to not look like partners, and this post is the clearest evidence of that.

Not sure what the logic in that is, Icon?

[Klick]

Whyyyyyy can't we just lynch scum

I'll swap to Saudade if it makes things easier but we need to get five people on a lynch and I really don't think it's Mena.

VOTE: Saudade
L-1

[Klick]

Dong is toxic, and anti-town, and on a shitty omgus tunnel from D1 but also, irritatingly, town

So scum is in (VV, sau, klick)

Like, you've said before that you don't get why dong would play around you specifically, but I think it makes quite a lot of sense if you look at dong's play overall. Goes after getting a TR from you D1 and plans to lock that in by killing you, then after you get saved and become conf!town pushes for someone who isn't their biggest SR (!) by going after dats -- incidentally, why do you think the push dong made today is in good faith if you're TRing dats? Then tomorrow they've got you pocketed to take their pick of who they wanna push tomorrow between me/klick/VV (prob me and working on the basis that saud is the more likely partner). So they only need to convince 1 of klick (maybe saud)/VV to vote for me along with you and get a quickhammer off for the win

Lets say that i did all of these. In that same night i "rolecop" (not even what i claimed) bella, also try to kill ico, who im trying to pocket, then instead of shutting up about it and killing Bella at night i make a ruckus, and tell ico my night result in the neighbourhood without anyone asking me in the thread.
Why?
If im pocketing hım i dont try to kill hım,
I never claim masons while ico iş getting lynched because chemist is already an easy mislynch for tomorrow,
I dont confirm both myself, ico and Bella with my night action.
I dont do anything you say that would make sense as scum.

Like, you've said before that you don't get why dong would play around you specifically, but I think it makes quite a lot of sense if you look at dong's play overall. Goes after getting a TR from you D1 and plans to lock that in by killing you, then after you get saved and become conf!town pushes for someone who isn't their biggest SR (!) by going after dats -- incidentally, why do you think the push dong made today is in good faith if you're TRing dats? Then tomorrow they've got you pocketed to take their pick of who they wanna push tomorrow between me/klick/VV (prob me and working on the basis that saud is the more likely partner). So they only need to convince 1 of klick (maybe saud)/VV to vote for me along with you and get a quickhammer off for the win

why does Dong bother fake!claiming masons and get a shitstorm over him to stop my lynch from happening if his plan is to NK me anyway? You are literally saying he set me up as conftown only to NK me?

yeah that is kinda weird lemme think about it

Bc dong and icon are right that this doesn’t make sense with scum!dong and I can’t think of a gambit where this fits with him being scum

This was such a weak limp off the Dong tunnel and his thought process makes much more sense as town who has realised he's on the wrong track than scum who has decided to look elsewhere.

[Klick]

None of you are of particular interest to me and neither is a game i sub into where you already lynch a town d1

So tempted to self vote

Then why did you even replace in? You

chose

to join this game.

PEdit: I will be very surprised if Saudade flips town. But in that hypothetical, I struggle to see any scumteam that doesn't include Vex? So probably, yeah.

[Klick]

PEdit: I will be very surprised if Saudade flips town. But in that hypothetical, I struggle to see any scumteam that doesn't include Vex? So probably, yeah.

So you have a team of Vex/Saudude but if Saud is town you still wanna lynch Vex

SO WHY NOT LYNCH VEX

Because you jumped off the wagon? I think they're both scum and I wanted one of them lynched.

[Klick]

TOWN
Icon
Dong


Datisi
Menalque

Vex
SCUM

That's where I'm currently at.

[Klick]

I'm curious what Datisi thinks.

[Klick]

Who did you follow dong? Because if you followed me you have at least a soft clear on me so can you actually think about it for a second

If it’s not on me you need to claim it because it takes the odds to 50/50 rather than 1/3

That's not quite how that works I don't think. Wouldn't Follower be functionally identical to Tracker here?

[Klick]

Right. First and foremost, I think that selfhammer was fucking bullshit.

Dong and Icon, barring ungodly levels of shenanigans, are both Town, and I'll take the loss with pride if it somehow turns out one of them (or both) are scum.

Which leaves {Vex, Klick, Mena}. Means definitely at least one scum in my old TR's. Shit.

Flip my name with yours and you have my thoughts.

I

think

you're town here Datisi. Your claim feels legit and I don't think it's a scum role. I have zero reason to think Vex is the town here, and while I thought Menalque looked town in his arguments with Dong, at this point I'm willing to accept that my read there could be wrong.

PEdit: Nah, that's not sufficient reason to not lynch Vex today. I still think he's by far the most likely scum by play.

[Klick]

Which Mena post?

[Klick]

Plus the fact you’re clearing her through mechanics while calling vex scum by play

Then again, I reread dats ISO p recently and came away thinking she’s strongly town

So I could also see you bussing today from early to try and get the towncred to win in 4p mylo

So it's scummy that I think Datisi is town for role-related reasons but Vex is scum by play. But you then call Datisi town by play and use that to imply a me/Vex scumteam, despite your mechanics-based hesitation to lynch Vex today...

[Klick]

Menalque, tell me what the difference is between how you handled you Dong read here and how you handled your Gamma read in Ruby. What can I look at between the two games that you did differently here, that shows you're town?

[Klick]

Do you wanna answer 930? Also yes, there’s a distinction which is that you’re doing mechanics based on pure speculation, whereas mine is based on a conf!town saying that vex did not kill last night ie something that we know

When did Dong actually become conf!town? I feel confident he's town and he's never getting lynched, but he's not conf!town. You didn't think he was conf!town for a while yesterday. So where did that come from?
I said yesterday that I don't think Datisi kills Icon N1 with the knowledge that there are neighbors (and she clearly had early knowledge of the neighbors in some capacity even if she's scum). That's not a simple mechanics-based read.

I'll look at 930 after I look at Dong's case on you. But frankly, my off-the-top response is that right now I think the most likely scumteam is you/Vex and I don't really want to make a case for a scumteam that I'm not actually seeing. Curious why you're not seeing Vex/Datisi as a scumteam though, since you seem to already have a take on this.

[Klick]

Spoiler:

I mean I'm about to have dinner but if town is so deep into the too scummy to be scum wormhole then I guess lynch me so long as dong never ever ever lives past tomorrow

I, however, am not way too deep up the too scummy to be scum wormhole, so I'd rather just lynch scum today

VOTE: dong

he literally claimed masons only to have that outright counterclaimed

then he self-voted, which again, why does town do that here?

The classic "lynch me but lynch this guy tomorrow" ultimatum. I dont need to point out that this only comes from scum unless the guy saying that has already claimed and is getting lynched. Reason being that this makes it seem as though they are risking something by saying they arent afraid of a lynch. Menal is pretty much the golden boy for this kind of behaviour, almost all of his posts after my mason claim include some sort of "lynch me idc town sux" even though he is under flak by no one besides me and possibly ico.
And the self vote is pretty obviously a martyr play to let ico live another day which i gave up on when i realized i can probably make better use of a follower pm.

I think there's some merit to this, actually. Especially considering his tone today re: not lynching Vex because of your Follower result. I don't think 'lynch me today as long as you lynch Dong tomorrow' and 'we shouldn't lynch Vex because he's now statistically less likely to be scum' come from the same town mindset.

Spoiler:

Take a step back for a second and tell me how many times out of 100 you expect Dong to flip scum if we lynch him today.

Because I'd say 1, maaaaybe 2.

plus dong selfvoted and left a cryptic message saying once they flip, well see why they claimed masons

this is a good reason for why the number is probably closer to 75 there

dong is just scum who knows that getting lynched D1 is almost certainly losing for scum so he's made up a bullshit claim in the hopes that icon would back it in self-preservation as he made it when icon was looking like he might be lynched. this prob does make icon town though, as I think scum just backs the lie that they're both masons once dong has committed them to that

Kind of a nitpick and i dont know menals style so idk about this but i think someone who is this deadset on me being scum would go for a higher number than 75 here. Every post he makes i get lower on his readslist yet he doesnt call me 100 scum.

I don't really agree with this point on its own, but in the context of Menalque being willing to get lynched himself to get Dong lynched D2, 75% isn't really good odds against the possibility of back-to-back town lynches.

Spoiler:

@Bella here is the rough bullet point version:

- dong instantly starts trying to discredit me the moment I put a vote on him
- dong consistently avoids actually engaging with content while making excuses about how it's filled with traps for him should he try to engage
- dong also claims that my content is void, and refuses to even point out the various obvious traps that are mentioned
- dong regularly misreps me throughout the thread by leaving out context
- dong lies about being a mason with icon
- dong self votes
- dong LIED ABOUT BEING A MASON WITH ICON
- dong makes some bullshit argument about how he should be let live until tomorrow because iMpOrtAnT rOle StUFf
- dong again, outright lies by saying that I didn't explain my chem progression
- DONG LIED ABOUT BEING A MASON

at the very best, his play is anti-town because he's straight up lied more than once in thread. at the far more probable worst, he's scum who is deliberately lying to both try and avoid being lynched and to set the mislynch on me because it's p much the only option he has here now

if you think all that comes from town then okay I'm just done with this game

but will keep trying because, again, dong is scum and if we lynch him this game is borderline won for town

See one point that ruffles my feathers is that menal puts questionable, gambit play and instantly tosses them into "anti-town" bin, even though my supposedly "anti-town" play just earned us 3 confirmed town today.

Nah, tbh I have to agree that it was anti-town to fakeclaim Masons. I could easily see town!Mena holding that opinion and even wanting to lynch you for it. It's a large part of why I have been townreading him in his exchange with you.

I think a few points in your case fall under this category and I'll just skip over them. In general I think Menalque's

approach

to scumreading you is really similar to how he'd do it as town.

Town would try to analyze why scum would make that kind of thinking and engage if it didnt make sense to them, and vote if they were certain it had a scummy agenda. Scum condition themselves to see it as scummy because of a possibly flawed line of thinking and dont try to rationalize the one posting it. You fall into the latter category.

I think both Mena and Vex have done this a bit - it's the main thing I've been complaining about irt Vex, that he isn't looking at things that actually make someone scum and I struggle to believe he genuinely believes what he's saying.
I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility for Mena to do this as town though, annoyingly.

Spoiler:

If you’re not gonna vote dong then go ahead and fucking vote me because I’m not backing off it at this point

Then after I flip green you can keep your shitty TR on him because he’s just a certain type of player with a “specific personality type” and go ahead and lose the game

Let’s totally ignore that I’ve got scum right D1 on like 4/5 of my most recent towngames but because I’m not the best at explaining people don’t fucking listen to me. And I tried to adjust for that this game based on feedback from other games but apparently trying to actually explain things doesn’t count for jackshit in this game. Even in the game where I didn’t push scum D1 I was on him early because that’s the game where I talked myself off korina onto mislynch bait

Do you want the others? Got scum skitt + epic creeper D1 in 1951/53 whatever it was

Got pine scum D1 in added to the group chat

Got icon scum D1 in purge

And in my first mini normal (can’t remember the number) I got luv scum on D1

I think I’m missing pfup as it’s my first large game, and obv I’ve missed my scum game but my point is my reads are actually pretty fucking good and constantly get ignored because of a mixture of not really being great at the persuasion part of the game and not having a strong enough reputation to just get sheeped on shit

Again, more AtE saying that you're always right so you should be trusted on me read or you may as well die. Town would bite the bullet here and start making associations, instead of trying to get the moral high ground every chance they get.

See that would be great if it were true, but this is one of the posts that still has me struggling to commit to a Mena scumread. This genuinely reads like town who's pissed that they are basically being ignored. But I will concede that there's obvious scum motivation in

making

the post (AtE was being townread earlier in the game, why not try to pick up some of that?)


All in all I can see some of your points, but I'm not persuaded by a fair bit of it. Regardless I'm starting to come around on the possibility of Mena-scum for my own reasons.

[Klick]

ok, i saw who said im scummy by play. kilck, i'm not scummy by play. sure lurking is part of my old scum-meta and you could theoretically read me on that, however, that's literally the hardest one to read me off of since i do it as both town and scum. mostly when im not into a game, but it happens as both alignments. you trying to tell me my play of lurking due to IRL is scummy is scummy itself.

VOTE: klick die scum

I have not once said you're scummy because you're lurking.

You don't actually think I'm scum.

[Klick]

Now I’d like you to answer 930 because right now I think (klick, vex) and (klick, dats) are both more likely than (vex, dats)

Tbqh trying to look at this game from an outsider's perspective, I think the only conceivable person I could possibly see myself making sense as scum with is

you

, Menalque. My play over the last two days is ridiculous if I'm scum and you/Dong are both town.

Upon a double-ISO with Datisi and Vex, the two say hardly anything at all to each other in a way that makes me think they're not partners. Like, I think Datisi in particular would be trying a bit harder to interact with her scumbuddy even if he was a bit inactive.

[Klick]

Klick, you wouldnt mind pocketing my vote, right? Too many a time we got a mislynch through because of split wagons and time constraints so i need some backup vote with me. I assure you i'll listen to what you have to say but i need cohesion in my wagons so it doesnt get counterwagoned and quicklynched.
Pedit: i'll respond to that

Okay. I think that's a valid approach to this MyLo situation.

VOTE: Menalque

[Klick]

Also if dats and vex haven’t actually said anything to each other that’s actually pretty worrying bc it’s one of vex’s scumtells

Oh? Talk about this.

[Klick]

Now I’d like you to answer 930 because right now I think (klick, vex) and (klick, dats) are both more likely than (vex, dats)

In context of your thoughts on that... this post doesn't feel like a genuine opinion with thoughts behind it.

PEdit: it still makes zero sense for me to be scum with literally anyone I could be scum with in your eyes and I feel like you're not really considering that point

But fine UNVOTE:

[Klick]

I'm probably going to wind up sheeping Dong and/or Icon today. But I'll give that it's a bit early to progress today.

[Klick]

Now I’d like you to answer 930 because right now I think (klick, vex) and (klick, dats) are both more likely than (vex, dats)

Like, you made this post

but nothing you've said gives me any indication that you believe this? You've just said that you didn't really put any thought into a (Vex, Datisi) team. So what were you even thinking internally when you made Post 940?

You're also saying that you've been thinking Datisi is town for a while, but that doesn't explain why you think (Klick, Datisi) is more likely than (Vex, Datisi).

[Klick]

Dong, how confident are you on Menalque actually? Because I thought the answer to that was 'really confident' but the last page has me doubting that.

[Klick]

Because if you're not actually super confident then might I propose an alternative lynch that is highly likely to flip scum: Vex Vience

[Klick]

the big personal problem I have with your play here is that just because you have a statistically-high scum hit rate, you wanted everyone to forego their own reads and listen to yours (and still feel it was the right thing to do even though it would have led to a guaranteed 1-2 town lynches from your perspective).

Like... I've disagreed with you all game on Dong. My reads matter just as much as yours from a general standpoint (and more to me personally, because I know I'm town). I didn't think the reasons you were scumreading Dong actually meant Dong was scum, and I explained the behaviors that I didn't think scum!Dong would do in this situation and mostly got responded to with variants of 'thinking anti-town behavior can come from town is bad'. And in this case I'm really fucking glad I've listened to myself there because at this point it's widely accepted that that read was spot-on.

I think there are times and places for lynching someone for poor play regardless of the implications that has about their alignment. But you can't just assume anyone who's playing to a lower standard than you're happy with must be scum.

[Klick]

The thing that has me questioning my previous townread on you most (besides Saudade flipping town) is actually something that I think you'd relate to - I felt like your near-obsessive tunneling on Dong in the first Day-and-a-half was anti-town. You've been pushing that slot to the detriment of paying attention to other slots. Any time you did give other slots the time of day, it was through the lens of whether or not they were scum with Dong (when I asked you why Datisi was town yesterday -outside of your read on Dong-, you did initially straight-up tell me that your primary motivator was Dong being scum and Datisi not making sense with Dong).
Tbh even if Dong was scum here, I feel as though an extremely narrow tunnel on him would be slightly anti-town because of how limiting it was to discussion.

And normally I wouldn't really see that as super scummy. But when my options have dwindled to you/Vex/Datisi, and you yourself have said that anti-town behavior should be treated as scummy yet you've been consistently anti-town, it starts to make me wonder if you did it on purpose.

PEdit: getting food, will respond later

[Klick]

Upon a double-ISO with Datisi and Vex, the two say hardly anything at all to each other in a way that makes me think they're not partners.

Like, I think Datisi in particular would be trying a bit harder to interact with her scumbuddy even if he was a bit inactive.

What makes you say that? At first I thought it was because you're familiar with 1949 (I remember it being linked in 2095), but you later said you don't know about that scumtell of Vex.

I've read a few of your games. It was a while ago (for last game) but I have a read on you as being the type of scum player who wouldn't just ignore your buddy. I think that's true of most players that aren't totally new tbh - it's natural to not want your interactions with your scumbuddy to stand out, and a lack of any meaningful interaction stands out.

I could be wrong, but your interactions with Vex just don't feel right if you're his partner.

[Klick]

Also, in 922 (and i think in some other posts tho I haven't gone and looked) you say Mena's acting towards Dong made you think he's Town, but in 936 you bring up his scumgame and potential similarities? Why only bring it up now?

The difference I've noticed throughout this game between Ruby and here is that in Ruby, he just went really really hard on Gamma and it seemed as though he didn't have sufficient reasons to be that committed to the read. Whereas here, he didn't actually start with a ridiculously strong SR on Dong - it built up as the two of them kept pissing each other off. (So basically the exact behavior Menalque said would be the difference between him being town and scum here.)

Earlier, I'd been attributing that difference in behavior to Menalque being town and considering his points more thoroughly. I'm now starting to question if the difference is just that he replaced into Ruby with reads that he was able to push right off the bat, whereas here he started at the beginning and had to establish a position as the game progressed.

The catalyst for me reconsidering this was Saudade flipping town.

[Klick]

The thing that has me questioning my previous townread on you most (besides Saudade flipping town) is actually something that I think you'd relate to - I felt like your near-obsessive tunneling on Dong in the first Day-and-a-half was anti-town. You've been pushing that slot to the detriment of paying attention to other slots. Any time you did give other slots the time of day, it was through the lens of whether or not they were scum with Dong (when I asked you why Datisi was town yesterday -outside of your read on Dong-, you did initially straight-up tell me that your primary motivator was Dong being scum and Datisi not making sense with Dong).
Tbh even if Dong was scum here, I feel as though an extremely narrow tunnel on him would be slightly anti-town because of how limiting it was to discussion.

And normally I wouldn't really see that as super scummy. But when my options have dwindled to you/Vex/Datisi, and you yourself have said that anti-town behavior should be treated as scummy yet you've been consistently anti-town, it starts to make me wonder if you did it on purpose.

PEdit: getting food, will respond later

Yeah, I mean that’s fair. That was a bad play of mine and I get why people can SR me for it. I’m a believer in the ABR school of thought on catching scum, as that was one of the first articles I read on the wiki and it’s something I’ve tried to emulate since then.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... em_Lynched

It’s something I’m reconsidering in my game because as I’ve already mentioned the getting people to follow me on stuff bit is actually one of my weak spots. And now that I’m thinking about the game more from a holistic pov I do think that dats/vex makes more and more sense. They’ve both consistently sheeped me throughout the game, which would make perfect sense knowing I was wrong. Let me lead the lynch, then let me take the fall for it.

I was thinking that their behaviour was pro-town bc they were the only ones looking at scummy behaviour the same way I was. But that makes sense from scum who see it as a chance to follow me on a push, then justify it by saying “yeah but the behaviour looked scummy and it was mena who forced it through”

Sitting on this for a bit. Because your play makes plenty of sense from that lens, but I don't really know what that implies about your alignment. I'll reread with this in mind when I'm out of uni.

[Klick]

Icon I keep dropping lower and lower down your list throughout the reading of this page

I didn't get to reread yesterday but here's where I'm currently at

Klick/Icon
Dong

Datisi
Mena
Vex

[Klick]

Datisi definitely shouldn't be on the same level as Dong

Based on play today the four players who fit into the category of 'trying to power-solve because it's MyLo' are you/me/Dong/Mena
and the two people who fit into 'comfortable with the gamestate' are Vex and Datisi

That alone has me questioning my townread on Datisi atm.

[Klick]

Fair enough. In contrast I think Mena has looked pretty town today in his solving though.

VOTE: Vex

[Klick]

Not even that upset tbh. Well played.