Micro 940: A Normal Blitz II - Game Over

[shiki]

once more unto the breach dear friends

i think town!datisi would have opened with: "we have you surrounded mafia. please surrender."

VOTE: datisi

[shiki]

knowing town!datisi has never opened like that

datisi just recently learned to simply ask the mafia team to surrender and this is a blitz game afterall.

[shiki]

You realise they probably assumed I was joking until you just said that... right?

i would have assumed it was for my and datisi's benefit or a tribute to saudade had it not included umlaut.

[shiki]

Are you an alt and do I know you from another game? (can just say "yes" if you don't want to reveal who)

technically i am an alt (team rocket queen) and i do not believe you know me from another game unless you were playing on an alt.

[shiki]

Okay, because it sounded like you were saying something about me in particular involved and was wondering how you would meta read me like that.

i was saying that the inclusion of the other mason swayed me away from that interpretation of it.

[shiki]

Have though uncover any new secrets about our newest members. Do any reek of heretical knowledge?

unfortunately hoctac has no completed games. i have a sneaking suspicion he is an alt of someone i am familiar with but i have not yet put my finger on who. umlaut i have done a cursory overview of.

right i just remembered that shiki had an encyclopedia of meta on all of us, and that's like 2 f stops closer to creepy

if everyone kept their wikis up to date it would be a much easier mission. however, since i haven't yet attempted to edit my wiki, i cannot hold anyone accountable for this.

what's your read?

i remember georgebailey reacting very literally to a similar situation in the past so my initial read was towny.

[shiki]

In particular, quoting that part from Holden's shitpost to emphasise he's town.

he does seem to really want holden to know that he rolled town this time:

rolled town this time

rolled town this time

I rolled scum on Holden twice in a roll and stomped on the second time lol he never saw it coming

or possibly to celebrate.

Honestly I feel scum would either carry on with the joking to try and glean more info out of the situation or directly confront the lolclaim to figure out if it is true and get some traction going for scum. Georges posts just read more that he was confused about the situation given Ulmt's responses.

i think georgebailey simply took it at face value. he modded a game in which i was part of a hydra and my unnamed hydra partner impersonated me. at endgame, georgebailey continued to believe that the impersonator had been me, so i think him reading the mason claims the way he did checks out.

[shiki]

@shiki; you think that might be a town-indicative thing? as in, he's actually just really happy to roll town this time

i think it is town indicative because of the way he seemed to be celebrating his past victory. its kinda the inverse of something i felt last time from humaneatingmonkey when it felt like he was trying to get me lynched before getting lynched himself not to win the game but because i had been scumreading him all game.

[shiki]

Yes, I do think it's more accurate to say Hiraki is lurking than Madoka, which is why I think voting him and keeping my vote their is productive since it might produce some kind of actual pressure while voting Madoka is just a null-op.

i do not think hiraki's lurking is alignment indicative in the same way that i do not think hoctac's claiming masons is alignment indicative. hiraki is likely treating his vote as an egopost and waiting for the game to develop, which is in line with his play as either alignment.

[shiki]

shiki, madoka, any reads or feels so far?

beyond what i've already stated, i kinda feel like madoka may have asked umlaut to scumread me because she didn't want to do so herself this game. or possibly that hoctac saw that madoka posted so he suggested to umlaut that he vote me? more likely the latter i guess because madoka's answer to this question made a lot of sense to me.

i do not believe that hoctac and umlaut are masons. i do not see why umlaut would be openly frustrated with hoctac in the main thread if they shared a mason pt. when i was masons with menalque and i claimed, menalque was frustrated but he expressed that to me. this feels more like acting. it does seem like they are in contact with eachother though and this would be a weird thing for them to do as mafia partners so i would guess that they are neighbours.

I don't know Datisi's usual vibrant self, could you elaborate this into something others can agree or disagree with?

why ask this outside of the mason pt (if it exists)? i feel like the answer is always going to rely on hoctac's familiarity with datisi, and since you are saying you are unfamiliar with datisi and your first instinct isn't to familiarize yourself with his meta, what benefit do you see this having?

[shiki]

what's the likelihood that we're in the same/similar setup as of the last blitz and that one of umlaut and hoctac are scum?

probably ~about random, i'd guess these setups are pulled at random from the approved premade setups.

are you both assuming that i am right about the neighbourhood?

[shiki]

I can't think of a reason the Neighbors would co-ordinate a Mason fake claim, especially if they don't know each other's alignment (Neighbors usually don't right?).

let's assume we are masons. i claim our masonry in the main thread, and you are frustrated by this. i would expect you to open the mason pt and ask me why i did so, as opposed to making a show of it in the game thread, as doing so only compounds the issue that has led to your frustration.

now let's assume we are mafia. i claim masons with you, my mafia partner. i would expect you to open the scum pt and let your cat walk across the keyboard a few times before clicking submit. reacting otherwise seems unwise.

now let's say we are neighbours and you are town. i suggest we claim masons, you ask why, i give examples of similar claims used effectively as scumhunting and say it is fun. this seems somewhat suspicious of me but it is plausible you go along with it. in this situation do you think you would oversell your frustration?

now let's say we are neighbours and you are mafia. i suggest we claim masons. this is a very beneficial situation for you, as only having me evaluate your towniness is good if you think you can convince me you're town. in order to do so i assume you react very skeptically towards the idea but go along with it under the guise of sorting my slot specifically. in this situation do you think you would oversell your frustration?

i think hoctac would propose neighbours claiming masons or perhaps even do so without proposing it as holdengolden suggested regardless of alignment.

shiki is HG town?

it is very difficult for me to read holdengolden. he has seemed productive to me which i think is town indicative for him but the holes he is saying there are in the mason claim interpretations seem to simply be him not taking into account town or scum motivations for it, which could be malicious.

Shiki is HEM town?

i am townleaning monkey. he didn't give a really forced scumread on an rvs vote the way he did in both the last blitz game and newbie 1996 and i don't think mafia would be so eager to celebrate a recent scum victory. he also seems less mechanical (for lack of a better word) here than last time.

That said, I don't understand shiki's points in 174. Why would Madoka in particular have asked for me to vote you, shiki? Or why would I accept Hoctac's suggestion to vote someone in particular if we were just neighbors and I were town? And why shouldn't I ask Hoctac to elaborate his thoughts in here if I want to see how others respond to them and whether they agree? The benefit I saw it having was just what I said, I don't know enough about Datisi to agree or disagree so I want him to clarify here so others can agree or disagree.

madoka had just made her first post in the thread immediately proceeding your scumread of me, which didn't have anything to do with current events but rather from looking over my iso. like you were looking for a reason to give a scumread. if you and hoctac were neighbours and you were town it is possible that hoctac thought i would correlate these events and gave you that reasoning beforehand, which i assume town!you would have evaluated and potentially reached the conclusion that it was a good way of scumhunting, since you were seemingly already using your vote to create pressure. it felt more like you were trying to evaluate hoctac than datisi to me, which would be a very strange thing for a mason to be doing.

[shiki]

The townie motivation is to evaluate your partner then, correct?

both to evaluate your neighbour and to evaluate reactions to it. i claimed mason in a newbie game and caught scum by doing so before i derailed the game. i kinda think town might be slightly more likely to go along with a mason claim as neighbours because it is sorta risky. but i think scum would be more likely to oversell it because i think they'd want to seem really committed to the bit if that risk came to pass and it backfired.

[shiki]

UNVOTE:

[shiki]

Why'd you unvote here?

Also, have you had a look at my meta to see if I'm town?

i was thinking about the votecount and i was kinda townreading datisi (for something i know he is aware is town indicative for him so it was only a slight townread but still) and i wanted to move my vote but it seemed unwise to move it to a mason claim. thus i unvoted.

i get that we could be playing a game in which we woke up on day 2 and there was no nightkill and you claimed doctor and noone counterclaimed that i would probably still entertain other possible explanations. i know its unfair that had georgebailey hardclaimed masons with umlaut in his first post i probably would have simply accepted it and functioned as though they were confirmed town. but even being aware of it i really don't know how to address it at all. i don't even really think that you're the more likely scum of the two of you, but i do think you are the impetus if it is not a true claim. and you are the one that claimed regardless of its truthfulness.

shiki, is Hiraki scum?

i don't know. i think hiraki is generally pretty accurate but the differences in our reads on you come from such disparate places that it is hard for me to make anything of it.

i do zero meta and shiki does a lot.

honestly i think your faith in me is largely misplaced if not manipulative. in terms of the factual stuff i think i can be useful but in terms of turning it into reads i don't think i'm any better than random, which i think other players in this game know and it is strange to me that other than datisi (sort of) noone pointed this out. i just had an unusually good game last time around.

I haven't seen him tunnel other town, so I want to know from shiki if this is common town!Hiraki modus operandi.

i think in a lot of ways hiraki's pushes are his scumhunting as much as the result of his scumhunting, if you're asking if he commonly tunnels, which isn't really the word i would use to describe it. if you're asking me if he commonly 'tunnels' town as town i would say no but there isn't really a way for me to apply that to this situation until after the fact and it also doesn't make a lot of sense to do so because noone is 100% accurate.

Okay, I mean that's a weird policy and I think you should change it but that's confirmable if true at least.

sure this is true of

madoka

. the account specific consistency is kinda remarkable.

Nope. It's driven my games for a very long time now. Your buddy shiki can verify that or if he denies it, I'll do it.

i was thinking about this a lot while reading your games last time. i feel like you don't really get nightkilled despite having accurate reads, and this is likely the main reason. however, it likely also contributes to the frequency with which you get lynched day 2/3 as town.

GeorgeBailey

does this mean you think the monkey/hiraki exchange is town v town?

Her playstyle is quite different from when I knew her as TRQ so i'm finding it difficult to meta read.

team rocket queen was 0.0 and shiki is 0.1 and it feels as though it is time for 0.2 if i continue playing.

[shiki]

what do you think about his push on me?

i follow the logic of it but so much of it being predicated on the perception statement kinda devalues it to me. i didn't vote a mason claim because of how it would look.

shiki, what does scum!Hiraki look like?

mostly the same to me. i noted that he tone policed others in a way that was very uncommon for him in one of his scum games when i was looking over it last time.

[shiki]

Does version 0.3 come with a new account?

yes. i think it has to because of expectation.

[shiki]

what do you mean tone policed?

like he is generally pretty confrontational but in that game he seemed to care more about other people being confrontational, if i remember correctly.

[shiki]

{madoka, hiraki} - Actively not a Townread™

i think madoka is town in most worlds in which the mason claims are masons. the concrete nature of her reads being based on post by post analysis put her in a position where she would only be able to push you and hiraki at a time when there were two votes on her and no votes on either of you. it's possible the push on hiraki was coordinated because of this but that seems unlikely to me.

That being said, in general, I do not like how the George wagon is forming.

it kinda feels like our mason claims do not care who is lynched. umlaut is scumreading georgebailey for something i thought was kinda towny and hoctac is scumreading georgebailey for not responding to his request for reads promptly. umlaut voiced his suspicion of you immediately after monkey started the wagon and hoctac has jumped between the wagons.

[shiki]

You need to work on your mind reading skills, shiki. Most of my scumread on George has nothing to do with that.

would you mind explaining it to those of us whose mindreading skills have lapsed?

[shiki]

didn't you townread that:

I think scum!George would be more cautious/apprehensive than this

unless i am misunderstanding the oven/microwave metaphor.

[shiki]

-His positioning between the Hiraki/monkey wagons, and assuming it's TvS and but not that they're bussing. I didn't find the way he ruled out TvT natural.

i thought this was weird as well, though his explanation of what he thought town v town arguments looked like kinda resonated with me.

[shiki]

i meant this post:

Huh, TvT fights, from my personal experience, usually revolve around stupid pedantics on definitions or non-trivial issues that only Town would care about. Then usually someone's feeling get hurt, or someone rages.

[shiki]

So, from a bit of research, turns out George's tone is completely NAI, and he's actually just a really nice guy.

scum!georgebailey feels really aimless to me.

anyway, i remain unable to determine what this:

put me on blast in front of everyone.

could have been referring to if not this:

Are you two actually claiming Mason?

Yeah, I assumed it was a joke lmao

Umlaut literally confirmed it what are you going on about

Well, then a woosh is in order.

I think scum!George would be more cautious/apprehensive than this

[shiki]

I have never, ever fakeclaimed as town and I have gone on record as saying it's pretty much always anti-town to do so. Feel free to through my games and confirm. I'm telling you I'm a mason with Hoctac. So either you think I'm a mason with Hoctac, or you think I'm scum and probably he is too.

i feel pretty strongly that umlaut is scum here.

err, hoctac*.

ohh. hoctac is hectic. in that case, i am quite certain that hoctac thought umlaut was mafia as well. this:

No, shiki, it's in the same view as the murder mystery conspiracy.

is referring to this post by hectic in mystery box hate:

There's something that really intrigues me about this game; it feels more like some kind of murder mystery and less like a mafia game.

which i thought was referring to a game called muskoka murder mystery as i discussed in my neighbourhood from mystery box here:

viewtopic.php?p=11766940#p11766940

one of the posts made by the player that replaced super mario's slot in the murder mystery game contained a typo (mt instead of my) that read as though it was giving a read of one of the players in mystery box (morning tweet) that hectic wanted to communicate under the radar.

i believe hoctac's typo here:

*the same vien

was intentional to remind me of this. the game that hoctac is referencing with this post:

put me on blast in front of everyone

is the same game that madoka linked earlier: mini normal 2118. the specific post it is linked to is this one:

viewtopic.php?p=11613226#p11613226

which is an accusation by dsjstr of his neighbour, ame. if applied to the situation of this game, i believe hoctac was confirming that i had correctly deduced that he was in fact a neighbour (and lying about his role, as he did in mystery box also) and conveying to me his read of umlaut in case he died in the night.

[shiki]

we're massclaiming (i guess), do you mind? Same @shiki actually

i am a vanilla town.

[shiki]

VOTE: umlaut

[shiki]

Shiki, did you have an answer for this?

was waiting to see if either of you would point this out.

We have a mislynch, correct? I say we just lynch Hiraki and if he flips green it is HEM + Shiki.

this^ feels like it is attempting to set up a mafia victory. paired with the suspicious nature of umlaut's vote on me early game i feel like madoka is umlaut's most likely partner. madoka townreading my read of said vote and referring to it as paranoia could have been an attempt to subtly get me to stop thinking about it.

[shiki]

okay but what is madoka's meta as scum according to you?

on madoka she has never rolled scum. outside of madoka, i really don't think my meta on her is useful, as last time i applied it i did so incorrectly despite having read all of her games in order to do so. her effort is nai as hoctac said earlier. i think reading her intentions is the best i can do.

[shiki]

For what purpose?

it seemed like town would probably be slightly more likely to want the answer to it, and it didn't feel time sensitive.

[shiki]

If it has not influenced your read, what was the use?

it has influenced my read, but it certainly isn't the only factor. it has also influenced my read of monkey.

[shiki]

9: Hoctac retracted the claim but suggested what we actually did, saying either one of us would get shot instead of a real PR or else one of us was scum
10-11: I went along with it and specified "you just lolclaim and I'll come in and get pissy about it"

i would like to know the timing between 9 and 10 and wish hoctac were here to confirm. additionally 9 seems like a good reason for you to kill hoctac. otherwise, hoctac wakes up tells us the two of you were lying and voices his suspicion of you.

Shiki, who would you have voted to lynch yesterday?

if you are asking which of georgebailey and hiraki i would have hammered had my vote been the decider, the answer is hiraki. if you are asking who i thought was the scummiest out of everyone, the answer is umlaut.

The more that I think about it, the more I think gambit comes from town Umlaut. I think mafia would have been resistant to Hectic's plan, considering the backlash.

i would have agreed to the gambit regardless of my alignment and i find it very likely you would have as well. if your argument is specifically that town!umlaut would have participated in the gambit and that scum!umlaut would not have, i would like to know what that is based on.

like whether a Hiraki+HEM team is even possible (because if it's not I might even want to vote shiki as the PoE-d second scum with either one of them)

'shiki is scum because the two people who have been scumreading eachother all game are unlikely to be aligned' does not feel like a real thought process.

Soft defense.

this would be more accurately described as me giving a nullread and voicing suspicion of those scumreading.

More of a refusal to give a read than a read per se.

this one is more of a nullread than a refusal to give a read. what i meant by the disparate places is that i thought the differences between my and hiraki's read were noteworthy but not something that could be resolved logically. another example of that this game would be the differences between my read on datisi (town indicative emotional response) and hoctac's (scummy vote, scummy hammer).

[shiki]

I would have initially, and then outed once Madoka requested that I tell the truth. That would have been optimal as it would have likely given me town points from both the town and my neighbor. Also, do you not think scum would be weary of continuing the claim after town stated they would lynch them if it came out later that they were lying?

i think mafia would be likely to overcommit to the gambit if they went along with it in the first place. i do not think it would be optimal to abandon the gambit for 'town points' because it defeats the purpose of having done so in the first place. if you follow through with the plan as scum it is in theory towny because it shows that you were doing so for a reason.

Why do you believe I'm scum but also believe what I'm telling you about the PT is in any way true?

i do not think you would create an entire neighbourhood from scratch as opposed to simply summarizing the posts and editing them to fit what you wanted to convey better, especially since hoctac isn't here to confirm anything you say, as i previously mentioned.

It is a real thought process. What seems unreal about it? If I'm town and Madoka is town and HEM+Hiraki isn't the team, then you have to be scum.

it assumes madoka is town and at the same time does not assume that monkey and hiraki are not scum partners but rather something you'd like to look into in order to discover that they are unlikely to be partnered. like it's a plotted near future read instead of a thought process. i think about the day one wagons for twelve seconds and it seems unlikely they are partnered.

Would you say you still have Hiraki at null today, then? I mean, I get you think Madoka and I are scum, but looking at just Hiraki himself what do you think?

individually i'd say i still have hiraki at null. the way he connected madoka and monkey made sense to me and seemed like a reasonable thought process but it worried me that it came very shortly after i said madoka was your most likely partner. due to there being two confirmed town i think it is extra suspicious when people seem to be potentially angling for a compromise lynch. ie since i think madoka is your most likely partner and hiraki thinks madoka is monkey's most likely partner madoka could be a good lynch to both of us, and with the very limited poe that leaves hiraki to push monkey tomorrow. it just seemed like potentially convenient timing. this is further compounded by the fact that i previously observed that madoka and monkey could be connected due to the nature of the hiraki wagon.

Tried to put together a "shiki on HEM" quote post and only found one quote.

this feels willfully inaccurate, especially since your other posts detailing my reads were more inclusive.

In particular, quoting that part from Holden's shitpost to emphasise he's town.

he does seem to really want holden to know that he rolled town this time:

rolled town this time

rolled town this time

I rolled scum on Holden twice in a roll and stomped on the second time lol he never saw it coming

or possibly to celebrate.

@shiki; you think that might be a town-indicative thing? as in, he's actually just really happy to roll town this time

i think it is town indicative because of the way he seemed to be celebrating his past victory. its kinda the inverse of something i felt last time from humaneatingmonkey when it felt like he was trying to get me lynched before getting lynched himself not to win the game but because i had been scumreading him all game.

i am townleaning monkey. he didn't give a really forced scumread on an rvs vote the way he did in both the last blitz game and newbie 1996 and i don't think mafia would be so eager to celebrate a recent scum victory. he also seems less mechanical (for lack of a better word) here than last time.

honestly i think your faith in me is largely misplaced if not manipulative.

it's possible the push on hiraki was coordinated because of this but that seems unlikely to me.

If it has not influenced your read, what was the use?

it has influenced my read, but it certainly isn't the only factor. it has also influenced my read of monkey.

[shiki]

This stuck out as I find the later half a misrep of Umlaut as he had prior suspicions on Hiraki before the interaction.

i was disregarding the posts about hiraki's lurking because i thought they were unfounded.

The upper part I disagree with logically, but I'm fine with different views. However, Shiki states that the town read on Madoka is due in part to the legitimacy of the Mason claim which she ends up calling into question in this later half.

i was giving two simultaneous reads. if the mason claims were masons i found it unlikely that scum!madoka would put herself in a position where she could only push players that were not currently being pressured when she herself was being pressured. if the masons were not masons i found it possible that madoka was separating herself from her partner by fully accepting the claim and giving very detailed analysis of the other players.

[shiki]

11 hours guys.

i am aware of the deadline and will be active between 2.5 and 1.5 hours before it.

[shiki]

VOTE: hiraki

[shiki]

~Reading soon~

One question: who is neighbor with Hoctac ?

if you were not following the game how were you waiting in the wings to join it without it ever going to the replacement queue?

I have an example of a game where the mason + town-hood scenario occurred:

this game has been referenced a couple times. is there any reason to believe that 4 vanilla town 2 masons 1 town neighbour 1 mafia neighbour and 1 mafia goon is not a possible setup? i have not looked through every game in the micro queue to see if it has been played before (as unlike the normal queue there isn't really a searchable version) but that seems more likely to me than this game utilizing the same setup as boon gets pretentious.

Shiki seems naked scum in my opinion, but I will investigate the possibilities further when I get home.

this does not track to me. if you believe that we are playing the pretentious setup and that i am scum, why would i have killed a mason claim i thought was a neighbour instead of killing datisi, who basically claimed power role in this game the same way he did in chain of command:

I was pretty certain my reaction was gonna be a blatant Commander claim to scum but meh.

i think your reaction to quantumquasar was a pretty strong giveaway.

Which reaction in particular do you mean?

you being frustrated with his openly roleplaying chain of command.

[shiki]

2- Who mentioned it besides me ?

madoka and hoctac referenced it. and i referenced hoctac referencing it.

4- What is your current solve ?

i think {umlaut, clidd} is most likely.

Monkey, considering Holden's natural paranoia regarding your slot (which has already stolen 2 wins from him), did he demonstrate this in a genuine way during the game in your opinion ? What's your read on him now ?

? holdengolden is the other mason.

[shiki]

I dont feel Shiki was as much as a force they were in the first blitz game. I feel Shiki is quite passive in numerous posts outside of VCA analysis and tend to display commentary on events rather than direct constant investigation.

i think perhaps what you are picking up on here is my frustration with myself and with mafia in general. i only played this game to honor my pre-in and because it was a blitz game. at the time of the first blitz game i hadn't yet been notably wrong so many times. i don't have any idea how to get anyone to listen to me here and i'm not even sure if they should. this games feels identical to hungarian 2 to me, in which i was sure eve was scum on day 1 someone else was lynched and i was sure eve was scum on day 2 and i was ignored and then i was nightkilled. the only difference seems to be that i am alive for day 3. a very large part of me wants to simply vote for umlaut. i can bear the weight of being wrong again and that feels preferable to being ignored if i am right.

[shiki]

i feel like hoctac's gambit basically caught us one mafia and gave us two confirmed town on day two and still we're in this position.

[shiki]

Is there a section if Hoctac's gambit that outs who he was (which was the grevience I had in the PT). Was the game reference it?

my realization that hoctac was hectic was a joke referencing my earlier post saying i thought hoctac was familiar to me but i couldn't put my finger on who. i assumed from the name and the playstyle but this:

hello friends!

or should i say,

hi guys i am town

confirmed it to me as it is a reference to a game datisi and i played together that i talked to hectic about while we were hydraing together.

What do you make of ulamants stance during the Hiraki wagon?

i thought he was staying open and pseudopushing umlaut. like he was fine with the lynch but he'd be fine with any other lynch too.

[shiki]

this:

here is the post: viewtopic.php?p=11669803#p11669803

[shiki]

pseudopushing umlaut.

*hiraki

[shiki]

What do you make of HEM's progression on Ulmant and switch to Hirakis wagon day two?

i do not think it is enough to rule them out as partners, but it would be risky because monkey did not wait to see if others were scumreading umlaut as well. the switch to hiraki seemed quick, like monkey wasn't really interested in pushing umlaut.

She's the sort of player I would cop first if I could, because I will never get a read I feel confident in.

what sort of player is this? i ask because this is not a sentiment that has been commonly expressed toward me.

HEM/Shiki
HEM/Ulmant
Cli2d/Shiki
Cli2d/Ulmant

do you think clidd v. monkey would be a more desirable 1 v. 1 than me v. umlaut to {clidd, umlaut}? it makes just as much sense based on the worlds you presented and i previously expressed my willingness to vote.

Well when I compared the reads I got that:

Datisi:
Town lean on Ulmant
No stance given really on Shiki
Town on Hem
Scum on Madoka

Vs

Me:
Scum lean on ulmant
Scum on Shiki
Town on HEM
Scum on Madoka

if i work from the reads alone it points to scum!umlaut, which is wifomy but still more likely than clidd/monkey trying to use the difference in your reads to have the nightkill analysis point to umlaut, especially since neither of them tried to do so.

If Shiki + Umlaut isn't possible, I'll vote Monkey. Im not gonna lose to him.

so umlaut started the day saying monkey was scum, then clidd said i was scum, then a little while later umlaut switched to saying i am scum, then clidd said he will vote monkey. one if not both of {umlaut, clidd} are mafia so this has to be noteworthy in some way, but determining whether it is more likely for partners or non-partners to do this feels very difficult. on one hand it feels like they are trying to judge which lynch has more viability, in which case the fact that clidd simply expressed his desire to vote, going so far as to put a timer on it is also noteworthy, but on the other hand it feels kinda obvious? like something scum would try to avoid doing.

I'd be lying if I said I hadn't strongly considered just voting shiki.

a very large part of me wants to simply vote for umlaut.

hm.

[shiki]

like something scum would try to avoid doing.

*scum partners. like why would they both survey in this way when one of them could likely accomplish the same thing.

[shiki]

Considering the town lock from Madoka on HEM, I would imagine that it wouldnt be as favorable. It requires far more backtracking.

though that is a townlock that clidd himself only noticed recently if we are to believe him, i agree that it seems like a weird angle for them to take.

[shiki]

I also believe cli2d intial question on HEM is further evidence that they arent a team.

i meant that it was seemed like a weird angle for clidd to take if umlaut were his partner, though he did not follow through on it. unless this wasn't a direct reply to what was quoted.

[shiki]

But I can say at least that you strike me as more analytic than emotion-driven, and particularly as the sort of analytic player whose posts often lead me to feel like they could have written something very close to the same thing regardless of alignment, if only because to them the analysis is so plainly true that there is no point in trying to obscure it. I think for example that, if you are scum, you are saying I am scum because you genuinely believe that that is in some sense the "correct" conclusion for town to draw from the evidence available, even though you know it isn't the true one.

i have been trying to apply your view of me to this game, but it kinda falls apart when i try to establish why town!you would think scum!me would play towards the "correct" conclusion for town to draw as opposed to the most likely favorable conclusion for town to draw in this situation. i could simply choose to give analysis of a different set of events if i was scum in order to push the most likely favorable outcome. maybe you could argue that they are one and the same, but it feels like you're just trying to give a plausible explanation for scum!me to have the same read on you that town!me does.

[shiki]

How would it benefit scum!me to argue that town!you would also say I'm scum in this scenario, and then say that nevertheless you're scum? I just don't see how that can possibly make me look ant better because it is basically saying it's understandable that a town player might scumread me now.

I guess the part of your statement implying that town!me would have the same read of you didn't come across very strongly to me.

[shiki]

it's just an inversion of my statement. it benefits scum!you to argue that town!me would also say you're scum because it benefits scum!you to say scum!me would say you're scum in this situation. it isn't necessarily designed to make you look better but rather to make me look worse.

[shiki]

but it kinda falls apart when i try to establish why town!you would think scum!me would play towards the "correct" conclusion for town to draw as opposed to the most likely favorable conclusion for town to draw in this situation

why do you (umlaut) think scum!me would play towards the "correct" conclusion for town to draw as opposed to the most likely favorable conclusion for town to draw in this situation?

[shiki]

my interest in the question was only partially game relevant. i've played ten or so games and noone had previously expressed a difficulty in reading me in the way you had. the "inessential detail" felt like it was angling toward a goal.

[shiki]

like if it was due to a genuine inability to read me, i was curious as to what it was about me that caused that. but it feels more like you were covering for townreading me and then having to reverse yourself when you realized you had trapped yourself after holdengolden presented his view of the possible worlds.

[shiki]

VOTE: umlaut

[shiki]

have a gif prepared for when someone hammers clidd.

i always have this one prepared but it didn't feel particularly fitting here.

[shiki]

thankyou for moderating.

well played all. monkey mvp as you'll see from the mafia pt.

Well played to Shiki btw for the very nuanced breadcrumb scum read btw. That was a work of art from both alignments.

thankyou. i had to make up for killing hoctac over datisi when i knew hoctac wasn't a mason and that datisi was a pr.

i think umlaut's description of my play was fairly accurate, though i'd disagree with the analytical v. emotional aspect of it.

[shiki]

What made you guys decide to kill Datisi rather than me?

monkey thought it was better strategically and i thought it was kinder.

[shiki]

this is shitty given your role

I DONT MEAN THAT BRO. I'M SORRY HIRAKI. I LOVE YOUR PLAYSTYLE.