Micro 991: Names on the List [game over!]

[Gimli]

Hullo! Hope you're all having a great christmas.

It turns out that DKkoba's theory was wrong and redflavor's opened came from town. I liked the theory, I think it's towny that dk thought this long and hard about it, and part of me was just curious enough to know so I decided to replace in when the chance appeared.

[Gimli]

Time is a constraint but I'll be around everyday

[Gimli]

VOTE: NotMafia

Why semi serious Dkkoba?

I might be squinting too hard but I like the question here.

Is there ever a reason to publish a list on Day 2? It seems like 2 misfades is a loss in this game.

I like this too cause it's a little awkward as an entrance to just go ahead and open with mechanics. maybe if ahsoka is mafia she'll open with some other thing.

anything other than a policy to explain the seriousness, other wise the seriousness is just fabricated.

and now I don't know. this is assuming too many things.

DK's subsequent posts: not towny.

[Gimli]

I can reveal that 3 of the following players are scum

DkKoba
clidd
Horsewoman
Ahsoka
Not_Mafia
Raya36
Your mum
volxen
RedFlavor
Radja

I thought this was a reads list and i was at the top and i was actually happy to see that i was townread early for once. Disappointment is immeasurable

I don't like this post. This feels like a lie and there's absolutely no reason to post that thought process other than to appear towny. only a few people posted so clearly NM's list isn't a reads list...

#townslip gang

how about you let other people decide if that is a townslip? also fair to note DK was annoying my slot cause redflavor had like a small hint of being mechanically aware, and now they're looking like they don't know anything at all about the game they're playing. so how does dkkoba know there's a doomcounter and they don't know there's 3 mafia?

ahsoka again with mechanics. not sure what to make of it but maybe that's still town.

VOTE: dkkoba

the townslipping mention bothers me a bit.

YES! someone is saying something right for once. I like radja already.

dkkoba's reaction makes me wanna eliminate them.

volxen knows mech and I'm fine with that.

dkkoba and raya are too cool with each other, with no apparent determination to figure each other out. Not great.

dkkoba talking about other games + too clueless about mechanics while also talking a whole bunch of it + forced posting to and about players. so far this is a scumread I have.

[Gimli]

radja and ahsoka I think are town.

dkkoba I think is scum.

those are reads.

VOTE: dkkoba

[Gimli]

wow dkkoba has 34 posts and most of them are scummy. I can't wait to have the thread buried by scum!dkkoba and us never being able to eliminate it cause he is so loud.

[Gimli]

*they.

I'm sorry for misgendering.

[Gimli]

this setup requires strong play from town. we must find each other on this gameday, build a towncore with only town in it and crush the opposition. let's make every single real day count. I'm town, I'm on your side and I'm counting on you.

I'm back later today, or maybe tomorrow.

[Gimli]

Many of Gimli's reads in relation to DK seem like things that I could manufacture as scum to push someone, but I still believe that there is a scenario where he is not used to DK and, by default, interpreted his entire line of action as too weird to be town. I'm waiting to see which way my impression on him will go.

Hullo! I never played with anyone in this lineup except for horsewoman, so yes I'm not 'used' to the players. However, my scumread on dkkoba has nothing to do with 'weird'. I interpreted their posts, some of them at least, as dishonest or otherwise just scummy behaviour. Also I'm not sure you should say, even if you played with someone before, that out of their 34 posts none of them was alignment indicative. Surely you just can't read them either way and that's fine, and maybe if I had your experience with dkkoba I wouldn't read them as AI either, but that doesn't mean they're not AI. I liked your posts otherwise except for that word 'weird' which bothered me a little.

Raya with the softballs to dk again. No interest in koba's alignment while posting to them.

[Gimli]

Ahsoka didn't townspew yet, which is strange.

Not a ping, but something I found interesting to mention. She probably knows what I'm talking about, although we can't discuss it at the moment.

maybe you should. is she obvtown when she is town? is 'townspew' referring to some other thing?

[Gimli]

I see towns imploding and people dying with their secret tells, especially in a game such as this.

[Gimli]

last post of the day is a retraction of that ahsoka townlean after much consideration.

in fact I think her entrances in the thread are very bad with the flow of everything and point to scum.

will develop on this read tomorrow.

VOTE: ahsoka

[Gimli]

Hullo my friends! I wish you all a great weekend.

wheres the dishonesty?

cmon dude. lets see it. :lol

whats scummy about them? EGGSPLAIN TO THE CLASS

The dishonest part of your posting that I referred to was the comment you made about NM's list, saying you thought it was a reads list, which is probably a lie you decided to tell for reasons yet to be discovered. I'll let you know if I still find you scummy in a bit.

as to whether you could fake a particular thought process that looks like townslip, I'm in no position to evaluate and you made it a moot point by announcing your own posting as townslipping. Now it just reads as deliberately doing things just to get townread for doing them.

I have nothing to say to #99. we'll see where my read goes.

[Gimli]

Radja is obvscum

honestly I vibe with this NM read

how?

[Gimli]

I am not a player who would be unsure if scum.

That is not the way.

what is this?

[Gimli]

that's brilliant.

btw I like clidd's impression of volxen as towny and I like the way he is approaching ahsoka. seems like he is posting in good faith trying to parse out the slots.

[Gimli]

I would

never

succumb to the dark side like my master before me.

those italics are so scummy.

[Gimli]

Damn 6 pages ok i will read them..... Soon

where are you?

[Gimli]

People play expecting town to have reads, but a townie shouldn't have strong reads at this point in the game. I will converse as I see fit, and these conversations will look good to look at in hindsight, which is why I converse.

I have given my thoughts on the stuff that stood out the most.

a townie 'shouldn't' have strong reads as opposed to 'I don't have strong reads' points to someone trying to mimetize town behaviour as opposed to just being town.

[Gimli]

People play expecting town to have reads, but a townie shouldn't have strong reads at this point in the game. I will converse as I see fit, and these conversations will look good to look at in hindsight, which is why I converse.

I have given my thoughts on the stuff that stood out the most.

you're lockscum

I like this.

[Gimli]

I don't know Gimli, but I know you and Kkoba, so let's fight. Shall we?

I believe this push on me is fabricated. I believe there are town on my wagon currently, as I specifically do not think Gimli and Dkkoba are both scum voting me.

Clidd can be scum because they hard misrepped me right when momentum on me could have gone either way. They can be impatient town. Either way, this should end up amusing.

where were you misrepresented?

[Gimli]

I like volxen's defense of dkkoba as town with that early push on my slot, but I don't townread volxen for it.

[Gimli]

I might be strong townreading clidd after these pages but their scum game could be just that good. and then dkkoba to a lesser extent, given I'm reading some of the things they posted early in a different light. raja can be town, but her posts are still too easy to and about everyone.

as far as d1 goes, that leaves me with volxen, radja, NM, horsewoman, ahsoka. ahsoka is an actual scumread out of this bunch. everyone else should be solidly null, though I liked radja's two posts.

kind of awkward posting but I'm back later with more.

[Gimli]

Look at that hard discredit train of Gimli, just chop chop chopping me down.

That might actually be scum indicative. He made the choice to push further, almost unnecessarily, in a nitpicky fashion like the italics. Seems like they want to keep momentum going on me.

where did clidd misrepresent you?

[Gimli]

just so you won't think I'm picking on you, I just found all your posting to be scum indicative as I was catching up. I could be wrong of course.

[Gimli]

Not Voting [2]: Horsewoman, Ahsoka

[Gimli]

VOTE: horsewoman come play

[Gimli]

regardless of clidd's alignment, raya is my first locktown

[Gimli]

i think its not worth pushing volxen rn because they give me the impression of a player who thrives better when not pushed on. And if theyre scum they'll either scumtell hard or spew partners. (Or be spewed via a flip)

also im biased cause they correctly outlined my thought process uwu

this is funny. why are you saying this when raja is pushing clidd, and none of them are presenting a scumread on volxen, quite the contrary? who was pushing volxen to make this post sensible?

what do you think of clidd?

[Gimli]

page 9 is so thrilling.

[Gimli]

silence scum

that's aggressive. I asked you a few questions, you're free to ignore them, but you don't tell me to be quiet. I didn't disrespect you in this game and expect the same from you.

[Gimli]

if we're gonna start getting rude I have better things to do.

[Gimli]

I'm back tomorrow

[Gimli]

Hullo! I wish you all a great sunday ahead.

I'm not really following what Raya and clidd are arguing about.

Gimli's "regardless of clidd's alignment, Raya is locktown" seems really weird to me. Why would a clidd flip not make you reconsider your read?

Maybe if you understood their argument you'd understand why I'm so hard in leaning raya town. It does appear to me that raya, volxen and clidd are playing something of a game of their own, with all that combined meta and wits between the 3 of them. Raya caught clidd being too hasty in townreading volxen for something volxen did that isn't supposed to be read as towny, and I think the push in that direction was too nuanced to ever come from scum. Even if clidd is town, that doesn't diminish the towniness in raya's thought process.

Speaking of which, I was a little uneasy with clidd's strong TR of me, because my TR of clidd was weaking at that point and I think he noticed it (given I was open about strong townreading raya), and I felt that maybe clidd decided to try to maintain himself on my good side by pocketing me. I'm not sure my posts were towny enough to be townread that strongly.

[Gimli]

Raises Dkk because they also saw Radja being opportunistic.

Gimli switching is town.

So Gimli/Dkk both town, likely, that's 50% town block already then.

Ahsoka seems like a bit of an oddball type of player, and as an oddball myself I sympathize with how hard it is sometimes to make yourself understood. That is to say I might have been too hasty in identifying the oddity of her posting as scummy, and a post such as this appears to have layers of genuine solvey thought processes. It's not a strong read but I've been liking the way she responded to all the pressure.

[Gimli]

I agree on Gimli being town, but for different reasons.

And DK still seems null to me, nothing has hit me as strongly ai from them.

can you go over why you think I'm town? It might help the way I'm reading you now.

[Gimli]

12 pages and I have like one real read.

[Gimli]

did a re-read on the entire thing.

clidd is a stronger townlean now than before the re-read. I think what bothers me the most about him is townreading volxen based off nothing, then trying to act smart about it. I'm also townreading ahsoka now. I think the way she developed her posting in thread was very natural and the way she responded to pressure was good. it's not much but I gotta work with this townpool for now <raya, ahsoka, clidd>.

if I squint real hard, I can see something towny about radja. NM did nothing either way.

that leaves me with volxen, dkkoba and horsewoman. volxen's wall defending dkkoba's tripping over themselves at the beginning of d1 and then dkkoba going 'i feel naked uwu' and then defending volxen when no one was pushing him are all suspicious to me. + no one pushed horsewoman yet, someone who was just here to complain about a game having 6 pages 36 hours into it. if she was town there'd be a wagon already.

[Gimli]

I'll wait for you to catch up but jsyk I'm around if you have questions and am excited to play with you again.

[Gimli]

@Gimli - why do you town read clidd?

Also, liking Horsewoman's catchup. Should I be afraid she's trying to pocket?

I'm kind of thinking this is Dkk scum too.

I like horsewoman's catchup so far as well. I think you look towny when skimming through the pages so the lean on you is natural and doesn't feel pocket-y to me. I'm vibing with this post of yours as towny.

clidd's hinting at being town in some of his impressions. e.g. tone reading raya as town very early and reading my push on dk as easy to manufacture as scum were decent. I like how he pushed you and I don't think him voting you is opportunistic, although I understand why you felt that way.

at this point you're a bigger TR of mine than clidd fwiw.

[Gimli]

new townpool of <horsewoman, raya, ahsoka>

[Gimli]

horsewoman's read on me is pretty genuine.

[Gimli]

find the two townies in <clidd, volxen, radja, NM, dkkoba> for a solve

[Gimli]

I'm not moving my vote because I don't know where to go with this. I'm back tomorrow.

[Gimli]

a couple of things are bothering me with this string of posts:

- Volxen as third town. I checked volxen's post as scum that clidd posted here and it's not comparatively that different from his entrances in this game. His explanation on why dkkoba's early game stuff is towny is certainly crafty, but it's still superficial and easy to make as scum if you have all the tools that volxen clearly has. That post about dkkoba misses that dkkoba can just be doing things on a whim as scum which makes all logic moot. It's also making points that are too unnecessary, like discussing the possibility of dkkoba 'pre-planning' those posts and how that is only possible if we're both scum. It's pretty but it is not solvey. His posts to clidd aren't towny either. And since clidd is townreading all of that stuff, I can't help but wonder if the whole thing isn't staged.

- the votes on radja being possible busses don't feel right as an argument here. clidd is supposedly townreading that radja reads list, so when he talks about bussing (and gives it 30% odds which is very high actually) it feels artificial that his head went there instead of thinking radja looks like someone scum wants to eliminate. and since this is a 6v3 setting, 'bussing' shouldn't be something we're truly considering until people flip. In fact, I don't know where the scum are exactly but I'm almost sure there's powerwolfing going on in this game.

I don't wanna pile on clidd and I want to give this time for me to reevaluate but this last string of posting makes me feel clidd might be scum after all.

[Gimli]

I also think clidd was supposed to be townreading ahsoka and the reasons for his scumread don't make much sense to me.

[Gimli]

Hullo! Wish you all a great week. Hello Lostego, welcome to the game and thank you for participating. I'm sure trying to catch up on all of this in one sitting isn't a comfortable thing to do.

I have little time for mafia today but let's see what I make of it.

[Gimli]

Gimli, I don't think you're scum and if you feel like that about me you should probably vote me.

As long as you keep evaluating me, I don't see a problem, as I said to Raya.

I don't think I can clear you for a multitude of reasons but the way I'm trying to work out this d1 now is by finding the townies and then hitting scum with an approximate POE. I'm very far from tunneling and am always evaluating. I feel very uneasy being townread so easily by someone I'm scumreading, it's normally the other way around with things like that and I'll feel dumb if you're town here and I just can't see it, cause it certainly won't be your fault if so.

Before I forget:

Gimli>
- Why do you think I should be townreading Ahsoka?
- Is Volxen null or scumlean to you?
- If scum!radja were real, don't you think that scum would buss Radja if he's acting scummy?

- Let's see. By the time you made that post, I feel she was already towntelling with posts such as 259-260, and her reaction to your push looked towny for me. You have more elements now after she argued with dkkoba. I think your read there was too ecstatic when you've been taking the thinnest elements to townread other players such as volxen and radja.

- I think volxen has a higher than average chance of being scum, purely because of POE + his posts were not towny in the slightest for me. I haven't evaluated his replacement yet.

- Maybe they would but also I'm townreading the only person who voted radja late and that was horsewoman.

I really like working in a game when players like you are around

[Gimli]

If that game is over, was Gimli scum in that game? Just trying to understand what you mean about the quantity of reads/analysis.

I was scum if she didn't answer already. Her read on me in this game (worse posting as town indicative) is one of the reasons I'm strong townreading horsewoman here. Seems like the right kind of read to make anyway.

[Gimli]

thread needs more horsewoman.

[Gimli]

VOTE: Horsewoman

gimil you should like this vote. no reason to jump onto radja right now his death is already in pending.

I don't. my townpool is <ahsoka, raya, horsewoman>. my vote is just there because I didn't move it.

[Gimli]

thread needs more horsewoman.

I literally have almost nothing to say, this day 1 has been really weird and I'm kind of checked out. Dkkoba's hyperposting is dominating everything and I can't even read them because Im biased against them.

your input has helped this game immensely. if you don't say anything it's even more thread space that's filled with things I don't feel like reading either. what do you think of lostego so far?

[Gimli]

I town read Gimli and Horsewoman, and to a lesser extent, Raya. In what world would I see that, and the way you've been discrediting me here, and think you're automatically town?

what are you hiding?

I don't wanna interfere with your line of questioning but what are you seeing here?

[Gimli]

why was volxen scummy to you?

he wasn't towny. I never said he was scummy, but more likely scum than not once I established a townpool.

[Gimli]

I don't have a real established scumread yet and I want to stretch this gameday as long as possible until I figure things out.

Maybe lostego's catchup was towny. There are a few small hints in that direction like his progression on ahsoka that seems organic. also... maybe horsewoman's apathy is something many townsplayers are sharing in common in this game, which is a shame and that's all I'm gonna say on the matter.

[Gimli]

Yeah ok I think lostego is town.

[Gimli]

Lostego entry weak for me.

Extremely political reads

can you expand on this? I'm having the most difficult time with my volxen/lostego read and while I get in general why you found his catch up scummy, it's not enough to grasp your perspective. lostego being scum fits with how I'm looking at the game and at what direction I think the scum are pointed but their posts, as you said, can be attributed to town who is playing a lazy game which makes sense with how the thread developed.

[Gimli]

I honestly haven't gotten a strong impression from him yet but if he's town then he is a very easy miselim target at the current gamestate and I agree that it's odd Clidd didn't come to this conclusion first considering the townread on him.

I don't know if it was possible to absorb this in my explanation, but the scenario of scum wanting to miselim him was something that came to my mind primarily. The buss scenario, which came as a secondary, was an alternative interpretation that I considered as more improbable by comparison,
but not impossible.

I think this deserves to be quoted.

I don't think that's the case, but if my impression of radja is wrong and he is scum, I believe that the second vote could be a buss, actually, even the first is possible, keeping in mind that Radja theoretically got more scummy over time. But this scenario is meh, I'm giving it less than a 30% chance.

when you say less than 30%, is that less than 30% of the times when radja is scum, or less than 30% in general?

also you could be right about this. The way I'm looking at the game, you're either scum or you've townread scum with very slim reasoning, to the point of e.g. the volxen/you relationship in thread looking like you were either TMI townreading town volxen or townreading a scum partner. The same kind of applies to radja, who I'm probably null on at this point, and there's like 4 people acting like they know what's up when he did nothing to justify it either way. if I'm right and ahsoka, raya and horsewoman are all town, then I think it's possible scum is happily bussing and letting you eat rope for it afterwards. also I just noticed I'm only now starting to consider seriously that lostego could be scum and you could be town and not scum with him. the same sort of situation applies to most people in the POE, it's really amazing how weak your relationships with my POE are. but man if you're town I wanna be able to sort this out cause you're showing your reasoning a lot and I'm supposed to.

sorry for the big post everyone, I'm off for the day

[Gimli]

VOTE: lostego

[Gimli]

anyone who quotes #426 is on my blacklist

[Gimli]

Hullo! I don't have much time this morning so let's see.

if im reading your posts wrong, your read on horsewoman is prior experience exclusively no?

How would that be a read? If the entirety of my thoughts on horsewoman isn't based off this game, then there isn't a read. I'm townreading things she did in this game of course.

(maybe I need coffee and these posts will suck, we'll see)

lostego's posts are really scummy. I might be moving onto something definite here.

what should be asked is if the consensus aligns with town being on the right track or not.

OK this was ignored by about 3-4 people so i think scum is not interested in this wagon at all which makes it officially bad. when you have a near-consensus the best thing for scum to do is either insinuate that it's the right move or instill a sense of disbelief (if its wrong) for towncred. i am no longer supporting radja

Like this is so farfetched I'm not sure it can be a real thought. radja is far from being a consensus anything + this is not how you're supposed to scumhunt.

'these reads were never set in stone'. we all know that, so why the defensiveness? I don't think I'll make myself very clear now or case lostego for the right reasons but I get a very strong sense that his posts come from scum as there is no effort to solve and all of his opinions lack nuance.

Lostego is making me rethink my read on Volxen, I need to go back and reevaluate what I was seeing on him.

your current stance on lostego is very important so I hope you did or will reevaluate soon.

[Gimli]

I had 2 hours of sleep

[Gimli]

I have to go do lots of things today and idk when I'll return or if I can post today so I'm making an effort while really sleepy to advance some thoughts.

clidd is almost in my townpile after his interaction with dkkoba. I've been having similar thoughts about koba and most of his interactions with my POE point to possible svs, specially to volxen/lostego, and I'm glad clidd got there and did so naturally.

[Gimli]

thread needs a lot more of everyone that isn't koba, ahsoka, me or clidd. I'm looking forward to hear more from you radja.

[Gimli]

you should apologise for bad content.

[Gimli]

I can agree on Raya/Ahsoka being on town PoE, but horsewoman is a slot that you should probably revisit, it's not someone I'm very confident about.

I ISO'd her again yesterday and I came out of it with an equally strong impression that she is town. And yes it'd be so much easier if she was actually playing the game but I don't think it's scummy that she isn't. I don't think this game presents a challenge for scum to come and post.

[Gimli]

<ahsoka, raya, horsewoman, clidd> is my townpile atm

unsure pile is NM and his arch nemesis radja

dkkoba and lostego are both scum

this is where I'm at and feeling very good about it too

[Gimli]

silence scum

[Gimli]

I can agree on Raya/Ahsoka being on town PoE, but horsewoman is a slot that you should probably revisit, it's not someone I'm very confident about.

I ISO'd her again yesterday and I came out of it with an equally strong impression that she is town. And yes it'd be so much easier if she was actually playing the game but I don't think it's scummy that she isn't. I don't think this game presents a challenge for scum to come and post.

I'm not entirely sure you're not attempting to pocket me here. Have to remain alert to this possibility.

if my solve is right you don't have to worry about me. I just really appreciate the angle you're coming from with lots of things, from your description of dkkoba's early posting to your evaluation on me (including this post which is just very unnecessary if you're scum from my POV cause I know I'm town and you have no reason to shade me). The more you post the townier I think you are.

if you're growing doubts over this, consider if scum!me needs to pocket you or if I pocketed anyone as scum in our last game together. do you think scum!me gives your minimal posting such a hard townread? unless me and all my buddies are floating outside POE, I don't think I could possibly do that. Consider who is pushing you instead and why. I know you're already there but paranoia can take over anyone.

[Gimli]

I missed something from clidd I need to answer but he posted so much since that I don't know where it is. It's something about radja emotional posting being towny or something to that effect.

[Gimli]

I don't care about addressing any of your points. feel free to vote and case me all you want.

[Gimli]

if someone who is town or minimally nice wants your questions answered they can ask me and I'll do that.

[Gimli]

Spoiler:

Don't you think it is inconsistent for scum!Radja to not follow a vote in his elimination pool and sound dissonant by voting you?

I imagine that scum!he would look at the elimination pool and think "man, I need to vote for someone I mentioned in the pool that I want to eliminate" or "I'm going to add Ahsoka to my elimination pool so people won't question the consistency of my vote. ''

Or even ''well, I don't think it'll be good to say that I want to eliminate x and vote on b''.

Don't you think it is inconsistent for scum!Radja to not follow a vote in his elimination pool and sound dissonant by voting you?

I read it more genuine than that. Makes sense to want to sort someone null that has some traction right now?

I mean more in the sense that this would be a line that I think Scum!Radja would try to avoid.

Don't you think it is inconsistent for scum!Radja to not follow a vote in his elimination pool and sound dissonant by voting you?

I read it more genuine than that. Makes sense to want to sort someone null that has some traction right now?

this and the fact that 2 people I'm townreading were voting there at the time.

clidd seems to be the first one picking up on me voting outside of my execution pool. More town points for you.

The quality of my read on you depends on whether you are more dissonant as town or scum. I'm currently considering town, because as scum you would review your reads before posting and reflect on how other people would see your content.

I'm hoping to be right about that, but I don't think it would hurt me to find out that I'm wrong. Let's see

Radja, if possible, I would like you to take the time to interact in real time. I am interested in seeing how your opinions are expressed in short periods of time.

As a starting point, I wanted you to talk a bit about your impression of Raya (251) and what did you like about her post.

Hmm, let me read back on that a bit to provide some examples. I guess it was mostly a gut thing?
I try to be as transparent as possible and pretty much post whatever comes to mind as I catch up.

- saying DkKoba's "townslip" could be fabricated.
- I liked her push on you(clidd) because it doesn't seem like an easy path to me. To top that off, despite being unsure about you, Raya didn't back down to join an easy wagon when she could have easily done that.
- understanding what I was trying to do when I voted Ahsoka: sorting a null slot that my townreads were voting.

Some of those things happened after my reads list, so there's my read progression for you, in case you were interested.

I also found towny the way she approached my slot.

It reflected as genuine in the sense that she had reasons that, when I was trying to put myself in her place, made sense from a perspective of "I want to try to know your alignment", which is something that I also assimilated a little to the impression I had of Gimli. I don't think the fact that I was her scumpartner in our past game has any influence on that, because at no time did she create a parallel between the two games to justify the push in isolation (which is another positive thing imo).

Changing the subject, the fact of you voting someone null and not exactly someone in your execution pool is probably the point that I am most sympathizing with my tl on you. It seemed very genuine in the sense that you did not feel obliged to necessarily explain why you were not voting for the execution pool, as it was something that was already on your mind, and as I also unconsciously omit details sometimes that are part of the process of how I get to some conclusions (mostly as town), I believe that we have something in common (which is giving more emotional substance to my read on you).

You don't need to detail or make a wallpost, but I would be grateful if I could see what has changed in your reads after the last events.

I honestly haven't gotten a strong impression from him yet but if he's town then he is a very easy miselim target at the current gamestate and I agree that it's odd Clidd didn't come to this conclusion first considering the townread on him.

I don't know if it was possible to absorb this in my explanation, but the scenario of scum wanting to miselim him was something that came to my mind primarily. The buss scenario, which came as a secondary, was an alternative interpretation that I considered as more improbable by comparison, but not impossible.

These are the things of my read on Radja ^

I see. I read all of those posts, my problem is that I can't possibly give this any weight the way you're doing, and then there are things in radja's posting that could also be looked at as scummy, as noted by horsewoman for instance. I think my radja read will keep at null until he has something of an impact in the game. It's not someone I'm willing to flip today, that's going straight to either dkkoba or lostego.

speaking of which, I'm fine with moving to d2 as long as we're eliminating one of these two. my townpool is done and unless radja and NM start doing something different, it's not likely to change anything in this gameday.

[Gimli]

VOTE: dkkoba

I think it's better to eliminate them now so we don't have to deal with all this horrible spam. before someone says this is policy, they're as much of a scumread of mine as lostego, and they look like they're scum together in many places in the thread, including volxen's wall townreading dkkoba's starting posts and dkkoba defending volxen when no one was sussing him. notice none of the millions of dkkoba's posts are towny. it's just a bunch of badness. this is not only just scum, but very poorly played, and once we established a towncore this scenario is actually quite clear to me.

pedit: I'm not as nice as you are and I'm just ignoring them. I asked them some things very nicely earlier and they said 'silence scum' and treated me like garbage. I don't have to take the high road now and I know exactly what this strategy looks like. they're cluttering the thread to mess with town now. there's no rhyme or reason to anything. trust your gut on this, you know koba is probably scum by now. it's better to flip them than to give them all this attention.

[Gimli]

I won't ask you anything anymore in this game. feel free to whine that people caught you for the wrong reasons postgame.

[Gimli]

I can agree on Raya/Ahsoka being on town PoE, but horsewoman is a slot that you should probably revisit, it's not someone I'm very confident about.

I ISO'd her again yesterday and I came out of it with an equally strong impression that she is town. And yes it'd be so much easier if she was actually playing the game but I don't think it's scummy that she isn't. I don't think this game presents a challenge for scum to come and post.

I'm not entirely sure you're not attempting to pocket me here. Have to remain alert to this possibility.

if my solve is right you don't have to worry about me. I just really appreciate the angle you're coming from with lots of things, from your description of dkkoba's early posting to your evaluation on me (including this post which is just very unnecessary if you're scum from my POV cause I know I'm town and you have no reason to shade me). The more you post the townier I think you are.

if you're growing doubts over this, consider if scum!me needs to pocket you or if I pocketed anyone as scum in our last game together. do you think scum!me gives your minimal posting such a hard townread? unless me and all my buddies are floating outside POE, I don't think I could possibly do that. Consider who is pushing you instead and why. I know you're already there but paranoia can take over anyone.

here are some thoughts on why horsewoman is town for anyone that's interested I can expand on those.

[Gimli]

I'm referencing the posts she made in the posts I made about her already. her evaluation on me was towny, also her thoughts on you and other emotional things I picked. she is assertive and reasonable, how I expect her to be, and I have no reason to suspect she is scum cause she never made a scummy post unlike you.

[Gimli]

answering me in absolute bad faith cause POE'd down scum (or like completely unhinged). scummy around ahsoka, scummy around clidd, not a single post looks genuinely solvey... it's all there. I don't have all the time it takes to be arguing about it anymore than I have already, my thoughts have been posted and I have other things to do. back tomorrow or maybe in a bit depending on who's around.

[Gimli]

she said I was more likely town cause my posts were worse than those of when I was scum, and her ideas about it were spot on (worse cause real evaluations and not just faking them).

[Gimli]

you don't know what her evaluation on my slot looked like and you just posted a bunch of crap again.

[Gimli]

I just don't wanna chat with you. xoxo

[Gimli]

I'm trying to stop talking to you cause I can tell you're scum. if you're town I'm just really sorry for what's going on with you and you need a break from playing mafia cause it's frying all your circuits.

seriously if we talk I'm gonna just get nasty and it's not good for anyone, myself included, cause I suffer from high anxiety and don't wanna be fighting people on the internet.

[Gimli]

P
O
E

and all your posts are crap mate. I'm sorry that's just how it is.

[Gimli]

I don't start games by finding scum cause that's really hard. what I found was 4 people I think are town, and out of the other 4 you're showing like a sore thumb

[Gimli]

sorry for the personal attack. I'm off.

[Gimli]

POE is me sitting my fucking ass in this every day having to parse out all the combined apathy looking for towniness.

[Gimli]

nah you're just trying to make this look tvt. you're scum.

[Gimli]

The things I'm most strongly associating with town when it comes to horsewoman have to do with how she is handling my slot and I don't know if I can expand more than I did already. Since you're not on my shoes I think that perception is forever lost in translation from subject to object to subject to object. I feel very strongly that she is town but I agree it's not with a multitude of elements in thread. do you think she is scummy somewhere?

[Gimli]

I said a couple of mean things and I regret participating in this kind of deterioration of the threadstate. It's antitown and my bad for my part on it.

[Gimli]

Hullo! Got a bit of a headache but I'm here catching up.

I'm fine clearing clidd for now. He is in thread constantly and is always evaluating in a way that'd be incredibly tiring for scum. the way his brain works is very different from mine, and therefore he uses other tools to scumhunt. clidd has a sharp memory and catalogues a lot of information. he always remembers details of people's posts and what his impressions of those were, and when he reevaluates it's much more common to see him remembering his first impressions and maintaining those than changing his mind about it. that looks great but it makes scumhunting very difficult, as he needs too much raw data to evaluate anything and his worldbuilding is slow. I found his reads list quite disappointing, as it doesn't even have a POE or anything resembling a solve yet. But I think that makes so much sense with town!clidd and I'm glad there's someone with such an incredibly different brain working this game out with me.

[Gimli]

My vote right now would be on N_M, but it's a meh wagon to push.

no i disagree, n_m has come through with assured reads and nothing to back them. i know this is kinda his thing but it doesn't excuse the behavior

VOTE: not_mafia

Lostego has defended radja before with the thinnest of reasons, saying that was a bad wagon because it was too consensus-y (which wasn't true). Interesting vote as he just explained before voting NM that NM's posts are patently NAI. so what lostego is suggesting here essentially is for us to policy elim NM. At no point there's a suggestion that NM is scum, nor the vote is designed to make him evaluate NM. This is furthering my scumread on the slot.

[Gimli]

what i want to ask those who are actually listening what hypothetical partner would allow koba to post or play in this type of way in a 9-player game. the PoE will eventually become very narrow and this is not the type of game for chaotic scumplay to be successful.

I'm sure nobody can control koba, but just so I understand this is clearing koba because their play is bad if scum? So essentially the same thing clidd has suggested. This is lacking for me, it doesn't feel like a real evaluation of a slot. Once you figure out that you're actually wrong about this, and there's no way a partner can dictate what koba does or doesn't do in thread, which quite frankly is pretty obvious, then will that change your read on koba?

[Gimli]

im not sure where you interpreted it as defensive. do you think there would have been anyone who would have disagreed that radja wasn't scummy? when i made that post i didn't find literally anyone who was defending radja or even considered them to be possibly town. that is what i meant by consensus. re-read my post with that in mind and then tell me what you think.

I think clidd and raya spent a good portion of d1 talking about how radja as towny. I suggested his entrance posts were towny as well and never voted or cased or shaded him in anyway. so your 'consensus' was lack of reading the thread at best.

[Gimli]

gimil your responses to koba seemed much more emotional than you want them to (you yourself recognize this and apologize) so reel it back in and then speak to me whether or not you actually scumread koba outside of your emotions.

koba is someone I decided not to talk to directly because they were rude to me when I asked them things before. It bothers me because I've been tolerant to koba who I could tell from their very entrance is not someone that matches well with me personally, and I expected them to be minimally diplomatic to me as I was doing the same. That has nothing to do with my read. koba is someone I constantly read as disingenuous, and they haven't tried solving the game in any direction yet. the majority of his posts are too self absorbed to be meaningful to the game. his pivoting from me to clidd was completely artificial and unfortunately everyone decided to agree with clidd that was somehow towny.

[Gimli]

Something I'm suspicious of with Koba is someone (I think Clidd but I can't remember) called them out for not playing their typical aggressive townplay. Koba claimed that's not how they play anymore but then I saw a huge change in attitude from Koba over the next few pages and the more aggressive play came out. Scum trying to appeal? Gimli still seems fine to me in context of the read on Horsewoman. This looks like Koba forcing a tunnel.
I think it's time I move away from Clidd anyway, VOTE: Koba

not focusing on koba but instead what you mentioned about gimil/horsewoman because that's been something that i've been focusing on as well. i mentioned horsewoman's displayed apathy and i dont think it makes sense and seems a bit exaggerated. from what i gather, gimil responded to me that no, he does not read horsewoman based on experience, yet his ISO doesn't determine anything to state otherwise. his read on horsewoman seems more like a comfort, but part of me is starting to think that if gimil were to be scum then he is only latching onto that familiarity. i actally think it's decently obscene how much he seems to want horsewoman to play or to show up early in his posts. what do you think of this?

Ah, I like this from you.

just so we get this out of the way, you asked if my read was solely based off experience and it isn't, because I need posts in this game to evaluate her based off my experience with her, so it's always a mixed bag of past and present things.

I was excited to play with horsewoman and was disappointed that she wasn't around. then she started arguing things that we better ignore and I tried to help her come to the game. I started fixating on her when my worldbuild needed her input cause I didn't know what to do with her slot.

[Gimli]

pedit: I'm sorry, you noticed I was calling you 'they' and then started to forget to do that midway through the post. apologies.

[Gimli]

i think its not worth pushing volxen rn because they give me the impression of a player who thrives better when not pushed on. And if theyre scum they'll either scumtell hard or spew partners. (Or be spewed via a flip)

also im biased cause they correctly outlined my thought process uwu

this is funny. why are you saying this when raja is pushing clidd, and none of them are presenting a scumread on volxen, quite the contrary? who was pushing volxen to make this post sensible?

what do you think of clidd?

silence scum

that was me in good faith and the exact moment you lost it. I don't want to talk about this any further.

[Gimli]

he said he didn't want to interfere and gave reasons for it. also he was calling you scummy before we had that 1v1.

[Gimli]

I'm starting to need more from horsewoman as her actual content posts are too minimal and I didn't love her last entrance in the game.

[Gimli]

I asked you things and you told me to shut up instead of answering as a reaction test? and then when I was clearly uncomfortable, did you apologise? did you even answer my questions? and now I have to engage you again FOR THE GAMESTATE oh give me a break koba.

[Gimli]

he said you were scummy before the 1v1 and didn't want to interfere as things could get worse and he evaluated you from them. he actually interfered once and asked me to be nice and answer if you remember that.

[Gimli]

I'm simply describing what happened in the thread. and either way I'm gone for now.

[Gimli]

The next thing Im going to do is read clidd, lostego and aasoka and my opinions WILL be substantive and they will bw good your socks will be knocked off

I'm just about to stop townreading you and I don't like that you feel the need to promise stuff instead of just doing it. the posts are really not coming through, are they horsewoman?

[Gimli]

Okay so now. Talking about the actual game. Raya36 is a player I didnt realize was in this game. However I like her willingness to ask questions that arent just empty, they GO somewhere. I think there is a lot of good analysis and reasoning. Town.

Clidd and aaasoka are slots that have attracted a lot of controversy and I need to read them more closely. None of their posts have struck me.

Kobas fight with gimli isnt really AI from me. I think koba has made a lot of drastjc tonal shifts this game, but what im not seeing is the REASON for those shifts. And as someone said earlier, koba started acting comically aggressive after it was pointed out that they were aggressive as town. Town would shift tone for genuine emotional or other reasons, not to look good. I also think that there are some scum actinh loudly and engaging in theatre because there are 3 scum to play with and a lot more to position/play creatively. Hiding isnt going to work.

the more I read this post the more I dislike it. you said koba's fight with me isn't AI, but then proceeded to describe his act as 'comically aggressive' after someone pointed out they weren't being as aggressive as their town selves. isn't that supposed to be an AI aspect of his behaviour when we were arguing? and if you think there's scum acting loudly and engaging in theatre, is there anyone but koba doing so? how does that not leave you with an actual koba scumread?

[Gimli]

of course your great read on my slot could be just TMI. for someone that dislocated from the game, your townread on me is just super impressive.

[Gimli]

VOTE: horsewoman

[Gimli]

I understand how that makes me look if horsewoman is indeed scum but I gotta be honest with my reads.

[Gimli]

people who aren't koba: is koba actually just like this? people who know him are like, null?

[Gimli]

*them

jesus I'm sorry

[Gimli]

I feel really terrible for how much misgendering goes on when I'm posting and not editing before sending. I'm working on that and I promise to improve.

[Gimli]

Hullo! not much to catch up today so let's just get on with it.

Relax, Gimli. She said she will provide reads, so we can wait and evaluate the content, and yes, Dk playstyle is just like that.

Just so we're clear, my current scumread on horsewoman is based off my interpretation of #665 and not because I think horsewoman won't post her reads eventually. I don't like that she felt the need to promise work instead of doing it, but that's minimal in comparison with her thoughts on koba and, now that you and raya mentioned it, I also find her thoughts on raya in this and 666 to be quite troublesome. The townlean is fine of course, but the strength of it seems off somehow and in many directions.

Speaking of which, I'll post a theory I have but it's not worth to talk about it further because it's an associative read that's more likely wrong than not, but I think dkkoba and horsewoman have a decent chance of being scum together. koba's push on me for my horsewoman read might be the single most surprising behaviour they took this game, and once they decided to pivot from their tunnel koba said me and horsewoman have to have the same alignment. I thought this was very interesting given my more or less universal townread status, as it could be a play designed to help horsewoman go deep by hard associating her with me as her guarantor if you will. I've seen no actual reasoning to why I must have the same alignment as horsewoman instead of e.g. just being wrong about her being town, so I'm very suspicious about this line of reasoning.

[Gimli]

I like raya's posts as towny thought processes quite a lot and I also liked lostego's entrances. I have nothing else to say about those and now I'm gonna let it rest.

[Gimli]

the question is why you were thinking me and hw share the same alignment, unless 669 means you stopped thinking that.

[Gimli]

"if the list were to confirm one cant be scum, the other cant be either IMO." don't you think this deserves to be expanded upon? I have no idea how you came to this conclusion and your posts say nothing about what your reasoning is.

[Gimli]

VOTE: dkkoba

happy new year everyone

[Gimli]

the question is why you were thinking me and hw share the same alignment, unless 669 means you stopped thinking that.

[Gimli]

why would town!me imply town!hw?

[Gimli]

it's funny you were bothered I didn't want to engage with you yesterday and now you're acting just as obtuse as always. happy new year koba.

[Gimli]

Hullo! welcome all new people to this game.

I've done a re-read of the first 13 pages and my current horsewoman scumread is really bad. I forgot how towny her posts were. Also been reevaluating on koba, and I feel part of why I was scumreading horsewoman has to do with conditional reads that don't make sense for me to even make without a flip.

I agree the radja slot is scum but I also think we need to extend d1 in order to allow for the replacement to catch up.

[Gimli]

I'm really trying not to, I know how bad that is for the game.

As per horsewoman's posts that I deem as towny, I think this one stands out the most:

Back from doing Christmassy things

Anyway, notes:

DkKoba's reaction seems alright. I'm fine to back off from now. A bad play doesn't necessarily make it a scum play. In fact, DkKoba's follow up scumhunting of Redflavor for knowing the setup is equally bad.

Gimli seems alright, but might just be good scum.

Not going to bother sorting Not_Mafia. Wildcard as either alignment, if playstyle hasn't changed. Interesting question though: Not_Mafia, have you played with me before? I remember mostly modding games you were in.

Raya and clidd's posts are pretty good.

Ahsoka is unreadable for me at this point. clidd's attempt to get Ahsoka involved seems good though.

I'm not really following what Raya and clidd are arguing about.

Gimli's "regardless of clidd's alignment, Raya is locktown" seems really weird to me. Why would a clidd flip not make you reconsider your read?

Reads:

Townpool: DkKoba, clidd, Raya
Scumpool:
idkpool: volxen, Not_Mafia, Gimli, Horsewoman, Ahsoka
Pool of execution: Horsewoman, Not_Mafia, Gimli

VOTE: Ahsoka

This seems like a pretty good wagon to be on.

Okay this reads list is so bad I'm joining this wagon

VOTE: Radja.

I'm caught up, it was super easy and fast because most of the 12 pages was dkkoba spewing nonsense. Although I don't mind making short multiposts, I think posting as much as koba is is kind of anti-town (at least on mafiascum, where games are soooooooo slow), so I would advise koba to cut that aspect out of his playstyle/this game.

Gimli's playing pretty differently than he did in our game together. And by that I mean worse. I think paradoxically that makes him more likely to be town here? He's producing less reads and less analysis but that might be because he's only producing genuine reads/analysis. Want to see more from him. Koba has made a lot of posts I disagree with and posts like 223 really rub me the wrong way. Radja's reads list is so atrocious I don't think it can come from anyone trying to solve/read the game. I'm kind of biased against koba because he's accused me (without evidence) of being an alt of a guy who was apparently banned for sexual harassment, and that's a really fucking uncool thing to do. So I've got personal animus there. Post 217 from clidd I really dislike, the thought process of 'I agree with him so he's town' is itself, really artificial. I liked ahsoka's posting a reasonable amount.

I like how succint and direct this post is. all the comments made here are pertinent. 223 is that koba post that looks incredibly detached from the game, where they say something about not wanting to push volxen when no one was doing so. 217 from you does look artificial. I agree with her thoughts on ahsoka as per this post as well and now that I read again, I think her correct lean on me looks natural.

As time passed I began to only catch up with recent posts and so I started to lose the big picture and my reads where going to any direction. I will say that while this is absolutely my fault, for the last few days everytime I started to post my attention got shifted to koba writing something to me and we started arguing. Posting in this game started to feel like a chore and it was hard to maintain patience.

[Gimli]

I haven't evaluated her replacement yet, and I'll first finish reading the entire game when I have the time. A note on the replacement though, is that since infinity was reading the game before replacing in, there's probably nothing in a towny looking post of his that can't be attributed to pre-rand towny thoughts he had while ignorant on alignments. even if I think he is towny (not sure yet) I'll take the whole thing with a grain of salt.

[Gimli]

gimil/radja could be partners? n_m if i reach page 16 and you changed you vote from radja you can be in there too

lostego, do you remember why you thought that I could be radja's partner?

[Gimli]

i take back what i said about clidd after seeing the way he discusses his reads unprompted. seems more rehearsed than i previously read

I think this is a very organic post to make about clidd. also while re-reading the game, the volxen posts look fine so I'm starting to townread the slot.

[Gimli]

theres just something that surprised me - > the way you townread me is like different from the way you caught me as scum last time, i.e. I would expect you to point out that I didn't exhibit that tell there.

maybe that games just been so long ago but yeah.

The readslist thing, or the fact that you've kept up your solviness all day phase?

Idk, the way I read you involves a lot of gut and that was the best way I could describe it. I was TRing you before the clidd push but that whole sequence is something I can point to specifically as being very unlikely to come from scum. Clidd said the same thing, but he didn't weight it heavily enough imo.

when did the clidd push happen? I'm currently on page 20 and I see nothing about it that looks hard to fake as scum, if that's what you're referencing. I'd like you to expand on why any of the clidd/koba interactions look particularly hard to fake as scum by koba.

[Gimli]

A lot of lostego's posts give me a lot of pause and IDK if it's because they're scum or just replaced in and are too unattached from the game to post properly, but there are things like asking ahsoka what is he 'hiding' and then #494 that just vibe strangely for me. there are good things as well so it's a mixed bag of meh.

[Gimli]

<ahsoka, raya, horsewoman, clidd> is my townpile atm

unsure pile is NM and his arch nemesis radja

dkkoba and lostego are both scum

this is where I'm at and feeling very good about it too

just so everyone knows where my reads are at, the townpile remains the same after a read up to this point, and the unsure pile contains everyone and I have like no actual scumreads.

[Gimli]

the thing about radja is that while they're pretty POE'd down as scum, ahsoka and everyone else that pointed so are right that this is the most LHF slot in the game and it makes a lot of sense that all of those strong pushes are just looking for a miselim. this is not how we should evaluate radja though, but rather on the likelyhood of them being scum without such associatives.

[Gimli]

Literally whenever gimli posts a read it feels like he's glossing over it a bit. It feels like he isn't giving his own reads the time they need to be properly articulated, which is super scummy.

would you care expanding on this? I agree my posts can be sometimes hard to read but why do you think not giving posts a proper edit is scummy? you're a 2013 account so you're at least familiar with the idea that scum needs to actually edit their posts more because of all the faketies in their reasoning, while town has an easier time just writing what they're thinking, which means their posts might look more unarticulated as a result.

[Gimli]

thank you for 820 clidd, I'm really trying my best so it's good to read that.

@infinity: you are right that I was appealing to horsewoman, but more in the sense that I wanted her to have an open channel with me so we could do things in the game together. she was already townreading me when I wrote #545 and I figured she could draw further parallels from my scumgame that she participated in to come to terms with my slot. you're right I was too uncharitable, but in my defense I simply forgot about her other posts as newer impressions replaced older ones.

pedit: you could be right and I share the same suspicion.

pedit2: I agree this might be too farfetched to take everything infinity posts with a grain of salt just because they were reading the game prior. but I think e.g. the reasoning behind you being a deepwolf if radja is is something very simple that anyone, as detached as they are while skimming through this game, can come to. the same is true for everything in that reads list he made. I'm still looking at his posts with more attention now so we'll see.

[Gimli]

can we ask for an extended d1? I don't know what the procedures or rules are for things like that but it's new year and there's been a lot of unfortunate rep outs. I don't think it's fair to end the gameday so soon. apologies if this is improper to ask but I'm concerned.

[Gimli]

infinity, that's a fine way to interpret my posts and I have nothing to say to that.

I understand the townread on koba now logically but I don't see much sincerity in their posts, it all looks like theatre and especially when you quote those in sequence. they said they caught me cause I said I needed coffee for instance. I don't think that's ever a genuine read.

[Gimli]

they said I hard scumtold.

[Gimli]

@infinity: well I never played with this person and I'm not in their head to tell if their disingenuity means they're scum, but point taken.

[Gimli]

I look at games differently and it's all I have to say about that.

[Gimli]

I search for genuine or fabricated thoughts, it's hard to know what scum is plotting to tell whether something 'makes sense' or not. we don't have all the info to know what makes sense.

[Gimli]

sorry for spamming one liners but this is something you and clidd might have an easier time doing. If I look for what makes sense the way you're suggesting I'm never going anywhere.

[Gimli]

I can't post properly today but I'll try to do that eventually, sure.

[Gimli]

last post of the day. love the catchup and I think this wagon is officially bad. scumreading raya strongly has such a nice ring to it. I don't know if I'm here tomorrow but I'm against eliminating amélie.

[Gimli]

that's a lovely tunnel and I hope you're town, infinity.

[Gimli]

it means I think you're reading the things I do as scummy instead of properly weighing in because you're stuck in a tunnel, or at least I hope so because that's what it looks like and I think it's towny. if you're scum shading me with this I'm gonna be very surprised.

[Gimli]

interesting. let's see what everyone else thinks about these developments, I'm in no place to argue rn.

[Gimli]

VOTE: lostego

that's E-1. I was going to ask lostego to claim and just realised town has a doom counter doesn't mean one of the town players is a doom counter lol. funny cause that's what redflavor openclaimed and was pushed for being 'mechanically aware'.

[Gimli]

I have no idea what 'makes sense' for scum!lostego here. did he think I could get rope? if he did, then maybe that points to both infinity and dkkoba being town. but even then, what are his team mates and how awkward would it be for them to turn and vote me here? If I try to think if this makes sense, my mind draws a blank. but the vote is pretty bad and I think he had several moments of flat out scummy posting, and there are angles to look at volxen's posting, for instance how unnecessary a lot of his points in defense of koba were, that makes me feel ok with this. also fair to note lostego never had one really towny moment, just some pings here and there that don't amount to much.

[Gimli]

clidd, I was hoping you'd expand a bit on why the gif reaction to amélie's catch up. I guess you're waiting for her to finish it before properly reacting to it but if you're not I'd like to know what's on your mind.

[Gimli]

if anyone wants to hammer, post intent first and let amélie finish her catch up, unless you want me to spend the entire day 2 trying to get you yeeted.

[Gimli]

Massive post incoming.

[Gimli]

Hullo! Let's all have a great week.

I've spent some time working on the game while the thread was closed, and I believe my current leans are starting to near a solve. There are many premises I'm going to make to come to my current POE, and from then to my current most likely team combinations, and I hope you bare with me through it. I hope this post comes clean and helps town.

My first premise is that clidd is very likely to be town and someone I'm hardclearing through the rest of the game. He's been tirelessly solvey throughout, and now that volxen flipped we have a greater understanding of how clidd's treatment of the slot doesn't point to a scummy agenda. A post such as #310, that puts me, raya and volxen as top towns feels dangerous if he is scum because his top townleans are either all town or not scum with clidd, since raya isn't scum with clidd (I'll get to that in a bit). His handling of the volxen slot continues to be majorly interested in solving it rather than push for something easy, as #540 shows. Note the handle of the slot is the opposite of what raya initially suspected clidd of doing (setting up a push). Basically, if clidd is scum then he has no reason to continue voicing that volxen townread he had earlier, since only clidd thought volxen was towny and got pushed for it. Post #540 is too late into d1 for him to keep bringing up that point again if he is scum.

Of minor importance but still relevant are clidd's unlikely pairings with the POE. The one I investigated is his relationship with koba in thread. The clidd and koba interactions, starting at #447 makes them unlikely to be scum together, with posts such as #456 where clidd says koba's entire ISO is scummy, and I think #469 is too genuine and nuanced of a read to come from a fake svs interaction, calling koba 'super selfish if not scum'. the #474-81 follow up also makes them an unlikely pairing and I think koba's handle of clidd would give me the same impressions, like that moment koba stopped tunneling me to push clidd.

Related to my clidd locktown read is my raya locktown read. They're very likely at least not scum together, as raya's entire push on clidd came way too soon, strong and reasonable. Starting with #139 where raya says 'For all I know the reason you're potentially setting up a push on volxen instead of the other options you gave is because the other options include your partners'. Follows up with a vote on #207 for a very good reason (that weird 'villain' post clidd made to ahsoka) and all of her posting to clidd (216-18-21-22-31-34) is the most genuinely towny thought process anyone has made in this game. She is absolutely coming with the right perspective here, pushing someone she isn't scum with and who certainly doesn't look pushable for scum the way clidd played d1. That makes raya town almost always. In #612 raya's scumpool is composed of literally the two loudest players in the game (clidd and koba). She is moving from strong loud player to strong loud player, both unlikely to eat rope and never low hanging fruit. #727 has some cool takes.

Alright, now that these townleans are out of the way, we have our POE. It's fair to note that if I'm right and raya and clidd are town, then we only need to kill one scum to effectively win the game, as with 3 living town players scum will never reach parity. So given these leans I currently have,

I'm against using the doomcounter.

We can't afford wasting a flip and I'm unlikely to change my mind about this, at least given the current gamestate.

So now we have the POE of <infinity, koba, ahsoka, NM, amélie>. Find two towns and win the game. If we can't do that, then find interactions and leans between the players that make them unlikely enough to be scum together so we can remove them from possible scum team combinations, and that way we can find the best possible elim with the highest likelihood of hitting scum. This isn't gonna be as set in stone as my locktown reads. From the POE, interactions between these players could be faked and everything should be taken with a grain of salt. Having said that, I think I had some fair premises to come to my most likely scum teams and my lockscum read. The way NM played this game and given my solve just went there regardless of the hammer (which I'm satisfied not talking about any further as NM is probably scum and playing to his wincon) I feel very strongly that we have no other elimination to make. If he is town there's nothing I can do cause he never showed any signs of it.

Ahsoka

The ahsoka-koba interactions are actually weird and it's hard to pinpoint much about it that makes it unlikely to be svs theatre, at least at first. I feel that ahsoka is always trying to disengage with Koba in their discussion. #169 where ahsoka says they'll 'take the game out of rvs' seems a little detached from the thread as many AI things have definitely happened already. I'm not sure what to do with their interaction with koba early but it's weird. in #260 ahsoka is already calling koba town because 'they also saw radja being opportunistic'. This is a bit of a stretch as koba's description of why they voted radja doesn't imply anything in the sense of opportunism with the ahsoka vote. in #292 ahsoka is calling koba scum again. #331 is good though! And this will be something that permeates ahsoka's posting throughout d1. They come to the conclusion that there's at least one scum in their wagon between <gimly, koba and clidd>, clears me and then says koba and clidd probably contain one scum but not both. I feel this might actually point to ahsoka not being scum with Koba but it's kinda farfetched. The follow up is alright though. Their discussion from #334-351 where ahsoka goes 'it's you or clidd. what's your read on clidd?' point rather strongly to this not actually being scum theatre. So I'm fine removing ahsoka/koba teams for now.

#359 from ahsoka is really important. It at the very least points to a radja/ahsoka/koba being quite impossible. They're all scumreading and attacking each other here. I tend to like these ahsoka posts to koba quite a lot. I have the feeling ahsoka and radja are unlikely to be scum together because of ahsoka's thoughts when koba voted radja, and also because radja voted ahsoka without putting ahsoka on their leans or explaining the vote. I feel this is too incredibly detached of a vote to be on a scum partner that's getting heat. This isn't set in stone but I think ahsoka is unlikely to be both scum with koba and with radja. I do not think koba is unlikely to be scum with radja based off koba's posts though.

Horsewoman/Infinity

#287 followed by #288 by horsewoman is very interesting if she was somehow scum with Koba, meaning I think this somehow creates a separation between the two and makes them an unlikely team. I'm not going to read into the other stuff too much because I don't know if that entire thing didn't blow out of proportion precisely because they were scum together. #291 seems a little pushy for a svs as well. #293 doesn't contain a thought process as to why the radja readslist is bad so it doesn't quite look like bussing. I feel the amélie/infinity/koba is not too likely given the vibe of this post. also #502 might point to radja/infinity/NM being unlikely as well. These are weak-ish reads I'm making trying to get somewhere. #503 is literally pointing at a koba/NM interaction as possibly svs for a good reason so I'm fine writing off the koba/infinity/nm team.

I'm left with

ahsoka, NM, infinity
NM, infinity, amélie
NM, amélie, Koba

and NM is scum.

[Gimli]

tell me what, if anything, you find suspicious about it, then I'll think if it deserves any explanation. have you done any work in this thread?

[Gimli]

damn almost like WIM in a setup where scum have an advantage should be a huge green flag for you

done talking to you. cya all tomorrow!

[Gimli]

Just so we're clear, the doom counter suggestion being brought up right now is that we trade one elimination for a list of FIVE players that the MAFIA picked. If we hit the button and we miselim today, we LOSE THE GAME. The list can be completely useless as mafia picked it for us.

If you're town and you think this is reasonable, I suggest some you do some reflection on it.

[Gimli]

I trust my fellow team mates to think logically. We should play this montainous, my friends! Find the town and win the game, it doesn't get any simpler than that.

[Gimli]

can't post rn but why do you think the list will help with that?

[Gimli]

pedit: A mechanical aid may be useful to clarify any loose ends not only in my reads, but in others too.

that's not enough for me. I'd really like to understand how exactly can you parse out NM and amélie through a list. Maybe give me an example of how would that work? You understand if we use the list and miselim today, we lose the game?

Honestly your posts this gameday are confusing me. I'm gonna trust my work in this thread and not bother too much, but I really expected you of all people to see that using the doomcounter is a mechanical throw. Also it all seems very lazy from where I stand, but I'm not gonna hold you to a higher standard than everyone else I guess.

Raya, I'll respond to you tomorrow.

Infinity, I have not played with not mafia before.

[Gimli]

The list is even worse if we have a strong base. If we have a strong base, then we need to flip the people in the POE, not use a list the mafia made and lose one flip with it.

[Gimli]

infinity, who are your confident scumreads?

[Gimli]

if we had 4 townreads, the game would already be over by POE alone since mafia can never reach parity. Even in your description using the list would be completely pointless.

[Gimli]

you still didn't answer how you could possibly parse out who is scum and who isn't between nm and amélie, but that's ok. I'm upset with your mechanics more than anything else.

pedit: yes that's great

[Gimli]

Hullo!

I'm clearing ahsoka and un-clearing clidd. Ahsoka's string of posting today is only less towny than some parts of raya's d1.

I need to worldbuild with these new developments so this will take a while.

Ahsoka, you are so important for town, you have no idea. I was starting to feel like the game was lost after my conversation with clidd yesterday, and I didn't want to say how scummy I think his d2 has been but I'm quite alarmed that clidd did not even try to solve the game from a POE standpoint. He made like no solvey posts this phase, coasting and asking questions, and it makes very little sense with how I assume his personality as a mafia player is. What you did just now POEing down the game is what I expected from all town players.

[Gimli]

I don't talk to you because you're disingenuous and everytime I did it it made me anxious and didn't help the game state in any way that's worth it. I'll keep doing that so save the questions xoxo.

[Gimli]

[quote="In [url=viewtopic.php?p=12479196#p12479196]
I don't think I'm following the 287 and 288 point about Horsewoman and Koba? Could you go into more depth with that?
[/quote]
Thank you for reading and discussing my post, raya.

I don't think I explained what I saw in 287 and 288 well. I feel like horsewoman's post to koba ('I'd vote you on page 2 as well') followed by a reasoned suspicion of me for lazily reading koba's posts as scummy is a nuanced enough stance to make me feel they are not too likely svs together. All my premises after clearing you and clidd were increasingly weak and I expected those interactions to be dissected by town today so we can figure things out. I'm un-clearing clidd, I certainly don't feel strong enough about him being town now to defend him against you and ahsoka who I feel more strongly is town after her d2 posting.

[Gimli]

I just have anxiety like, the syndrome.

[Gimli]

I don't wanna talk about my issues but you're asking stupid questions about it.

[Gimli]

I'm guessing that I would probably know after seeing the list, depending on who was on it.

Or not and I would have to use any information, however small, from the list

I want you to give me an example of a list that makes you parse out amélie from NM as it relates to which one could be scum, which one could be town, which is what you said in #926.

[Gimli]

I'm sure it'd be beneficial to scum to push for the doomcounter today, especially if NM is town but even if he isn't and scum has another target to push through, since a miselim in this situation loses us the game. The only people voicing concerns over the doomcounter were NM and infinity as far as I can tell. koba was pushing for it with a terrible reason (they don't want to play montainous) and clidd was suggesting it for a reason that makes no sense (can parse out NM and amélie).

[Gimli]

<koba, clidd, infinity, amélie, NM>

find two townies and win the game.

[Gimli]

I'm back later.

[Gimli]

2 scum in a pile of 5, in exchange for +1 for scum to reach parity and putting us in elim-or-lose this very gameday. brilliant plan. 2/5 isn't much higher odds of hitting scum than 3/8 which is what we have right now, and since we won't use the doomcounter that's actually much higher odds than 2/5 since we have 3/8 now and then 3/7 on d3 if we miselim. you're essentially throwing the game by using the doomcounter.

I'm thinking of this clidd-infinity relationship. the way they're approaching each other, I agree with ahsoka that there's a scenario where infinity is simply being pocketed, and also I'm starting to consider that these interactions are likely not svt if infinity is mafia. Also the way my POE evolved in d2, there's scum in infinity/clidd unless the team is exactly koba/NM/amélie, which is one of my initial combinations I worked with starting d2 but I'm beginning to think that is quite unlikely.

[Gimli]

Koba, if you want me to talk to you and answer your questions, I would like you to 100% acknowledge that using the doomcounter this gameday is a mechanical throw. I will not 1v1 you anymore which I'm sure is the only thing you want when asking me things that won't help you discern my slot, but I can explain why working with a POE on d2 is how town should play and how someone as competent as clidd was supposed to be doing just that instead of just showing up and posting all the lazy things he posted (sorry clidd).

[Gimli]

you don't have a cop check with the doomcounter.

[Gimli]

since you remain dishonest with your posts to me, I'll keep ignoring everything you ask me.

[Gimli]

2 out of 5 isn't a lot better than 3 out of 8 which is our current gamestate. if we use the doomcounter and we miselim there will be no d3!!!! don't you understand this??

[Gimli]

let me break the math down for you

say we use the doomcounter and elim in the 2/5 list. if we do so randomly, the odds of hitting scum are 40%. 60% of the time we simply lose the game.

say we don't use the doomcounter and eliminate randomly in a 3/8. the odds of hitting scum are 37,5%, as opposed to the 40% with the list, and if we don't elim scum it we'll have a 3/7 chance next day, which is a 42,8% chance. the odds of randomly hitting scum here at least once in two shots is 68% (I think). your opinion here is so bad.

[Gimli]

Not interested in answering that either. deal with the fact that you're grotesquely wrong about the doomcounter first.

[Gimli]

I share the same excitement about our townblock and our chances to win this mountainous.

[Gimli]

VOTE: koba

[Gimli]

Lostego suddenly made me miss being on their wagon

VOTE: Lostego

VOTE: Lostego

ur subtle vote on lostego was scummy though and ive been increasingly suspicious of how youve been playing since that. Scum FL goes for discrediting town!koba everytime. Keeping me in a POE is how youd make the play as town.

[Gimli]

your vote was subtler than ahsoka and you voted after she voted and now you're shading her with it. shame on you if town.

[Gimli]

great theory, as good as the doomcounter one

[Gimli]

I think I wanna trust ahsoka's scumreads, I admit it's incredibly hard to read the people in the POE and I have no experience with y'all. NM and amélie remain completely unreadable, and the other three have given me a multitude of reasons to suspect them and, in other situations, to TR them. to answer koba's question, that's why I'm trying to work out the possible pairings more than finding scum. to me koba is scum, but people that know them think this is AI, for instance, and IDK what to do with my feelings on the slot.

pedit: you were literally not the 2nd vote on lostego zzzzzzz

[Gimli]

gimli answer fast, which vote do you think i was?

first came raya i think, then ahsoka, then you, then me, then nm

[Gimli]

no you dummy

[Gimli]

you're always wrong, it's ok

[Gimli]

[Gimli]

I wish I felt the same way. I really dislike your solve rn. you think between ahsoka and dk, the scum is ahsoka? you think there's one scum between me and raya?? why? it isn't a necessity given your reads.

pedit: oh god you just put yourself in our towncore lol. well played. now idk. you're good.

[Gimli]

clidd keeps pocketing me if he is scum and I need help dealing with that.

[Gimli]

It does feel like clidd's more nuanced reads considering POE are only coming because he was hardpressed to do them.

Ahsoka, if you feel that strongly about clidd near the end of the day, I think I'll join you. Right now I'm really just confused though. that 180 degree read putting both of us in his towncore is really shameless if he is scum.

pedit: good stuff raya. I think you're missing the point that our 3/8 comes with a 3/7 next gameday if we miss, and we don't have that opportunity with the list. I broke down the math somewhere in this game.

[Gimli]

I shared a lot of similar thoughts to raya's MQ, especially about clidd. since there are so many people in this game whose reads are so dissonant from mine and I've been liking and agreeing with raya through much of the game, I'm not going to afford myself to be paranoid about her slot.

[Gimli]

I forgot about this game. I'll get back to this first thing after work I promise.

Amélie, we are waiting for your input.

[Gimli]

Ahsoka has created some of the most beautifully AI reactions in this game. I think page 45 is very important, as there seems to be an understanding among the players, particularly clidd and koba, that ahsoka is very dangerous in both alignments and is probably very competent town. Koba's vote on clidd comes after koba spent the majority of this gameday feigning a scumread on me (or, if they're town, I just don't understand how they think), and then this:

VOTE: clidd
fuck it
gut read from d1

Is a direct result of ahsoka's pressure. Koba seems terrified. 'gut read from d1' reads very pooly for me, because the justification is bad. Clidd has been especially scummy this gameday and if koba is still scumhunting (I doubt it) then they are evaluating clidd on d2 just like everyone else.

Then comes clidd with a rather obscene sequence.

{DkKoba, Ahsoka} -> 1 scum among them.

Nah, this isn't a certainty.

I think the game would be more fluid if you two were town. There's scum between you two.

I don't really buy that this is the reason. The game isn't fluid and that means there's scum between them sure, but ahsoka has been particularly flow-y. This seems like it's using a correct indication just to go ahead and point at the wrong direction. Then comes 1123 'I think we are dealing with scum!flavor here' followed by 'ahsoka broke the character and is playing like scum!flavor imo', followed by 1125:

I think town!FL would scumread me harder here.

Lots of flexibility around my slot that I don't like.

All the structuring of positioning to solve the game entering D2 is also something I am not buying from a town!FL mentality.

and then I post meme indicating that I'm with ahsoka and against clidd, and he simply says 'My new top 3 town is Gimli, Raya and Ahsoka '. I'm not buying anything else from clidd after this sequence. I'm really going to feel dumb postgame for how much inside the pocket of clidd I have been. This sequence of hard scumreading ahsoka to then completely shifting just because I posted a meme, and townreading me for it, of all the things i've done this game that are reasonable for me to be townread for. I fail to see how that ever comes from town.

[Gimli]

and I think the reason clidd is playing fast, cause if he is scum that's playing really fast instead of thinking he might have to stick around to f3, is because our POE could be choked with town. clidd was playing slow cause he didn't think he needed to effort.

[Gimli]

Hullo! Not much time today, let's just get to it.

I'll pocket you again Gimli, if you give me more time.

The difference is that I'm town doing this.

I'm not in a hurry, but you made it hard for me if you're town here. I had already cleared you d1 and was unwilling to reconsiderate. At least you're townreading the towncore, which is the minimum I expect from you this gameday, and it was clumsy enough that it can come from town.

Idk what to think about Amélie.

Would like thoughts on her.

I've read her catchup already and I just don't think it's too AI either way. She needs more time in the thread so we can judge imo.

We can also stick with a plan of solving with town!Clidd theory and then consolidating into a mislim on me at the end of the day to deliver the correct information about the influence of my alignment on reads/affiliations/etc.

No.

I'm wondering if you all just want the list because you're eager to get new information no matter the cost, but be aware that this is something the mafia also probably wants.

[Gimli]

I'm going to assume infinity's 'tunnel' and lack of any solvyness or interesting thoughts this gameday means he is scum. I was TRing horsewoman and thought she wasn't svs with koba but infinity has buried my goodwill towards the slot.

[Gimli]

I would like to see more opinions on Infinity/Dk/NM.

My opinion is yes.

[Gimli]

Good morning. I need to get ready for work but I will be back to finish reading right after.

I appreciate your work and am sorry about the pages where me and koba are arguing.

cya all later

[Gimli]

I meant your catchup from today wasn't AI, amélie. I liked the one from d1, it was a breath of fresh air, and I was against your wagon, but I didn't say you were town.

[Gimli]

I'm wondering if you all just want the list because you're eager to get new information no matter the cost, but be aware that this is something the mafia also probably wants.

I was thinking about mafia wanting the list or not and I don't think there's been enough of a push for it for them to want it that bad? It's possible they're worried about the list and how to slots are turning out D2. Also most likely in the same way there's strong pros and cons of both for town, I believe there are pros and cons of both for scum too. I still think overall it's to town's advantage to publish the list though.
And not to be pushy about this but I really think we should be talking about this more. There are clearly 2 very different outlooks on publishing the list and we need to figure out what's best for town soon. We have just under 6 days and if we do choose to publish the list we need time to consider it and reevaluate.

now that its over I'd like to compare my vote on Lostego as similar to my vote on TGP in this BoonSkiies game here: viewtopic.php?p=12441568#p12441568

I vote and then scum come in and quickhammer, I am not happy at this point as I was still gathering info. this is the same vibe i had with lostego

Why are you defending yourself unprompted?

Raya, I'm sorry if this comes out a little blunt but I have given the exact reason why using the doomcounter today is throwing the game and so far I read nothing but wishful thinking from you. If you wanna talk honestly about it, then please give me a PRACTICAL example of how the list can make us hit town TODAY because that's what we're going to need in order not to lose. Think, for instance, of the likelihood we're flipping NM this gameday and how the list would help either showing he is town or POEing him down as mafia assuredly. can the list do that? otherwise this is my last thought about the list:

let me break the math down for you

say we use the doomcounter and elim in the 2/5 list. if we do so randomly, the odds of hitting scum are 40%. 60% of the time we simply lose the game.

say we don't use the doomcounter and eliminate randomly in a 3/8. the odds of hitting scum are 37,5%, as opposed to the 40% with the list, and if we don't elim scum it we'll have a 3/7 chance next day, which is a 42,8% chance. the odds of randomly hitting scum here at least once in two shots is 68% (I think). your opinion here is so bad.

If you wanna argue in favour of the list, you have to show how my math is less important than the list.

[Gimli]

Amélie with that gimli tunnel and now it's amélie, koba, infinity and NM scumreading me this gameday. Hopefully that's at least 2/3 scum, and there's a chance amélie is just having a hard time with her reads so this is fine.

pedit: neither are we 'shooting blind' by eliminating without the list. what I used was math, the best way math can be applied. all you in favour of the list have given me is that you wanna use the list.

[Gimli]

@koba: if NM is town we're gonna lose by using the list, because we're going to just go for the compromise. if he flips mafia the game will get easier, sure, but we can flip mafia!NM today and then use the fucking list on d4 if we want to all the same.

@amélie: I'll talk about your catch up with you tomorrow, I wanna post good thoughts about it and now I'm too rushed to do that.

[Gimli]

You know what, fine. This reasoning is decent (it's wrong and it's throwing, but there's reason there) and my classes are starting again so I can't get too involved with these forum games. if you and ahsoka want to do it, I'm okay with this.

JSYK, if NM is town this will cost the entire thing.

[Gimli]

It's wrong because nothing justifies losing if our guess is wrong. But you know what, I get it. I don't wanna play d3 either if NM is town anyway.