Micro 1034 | Meet me on the Astral Plane | Game Over!

[Andresvmb]

I really wouldn’t mind being Scum like once. I don’t even remember the feeling anymore.

[Andresvmb]

I’m baffled by the amount of times some of you guys can actually post. And 5 pages in the hood already? Amazing.

[Andresvmb]

Koba not going to lie - if mollie flips Town here, I would agitate hard to get you executed.

[Andresvmb]

You’re discrediting them a bit too hard for this early in the game, even including the interactions that are potentially happening in the hood that no longer seem to be occurring.

[Andresvmb]

I think they are scummy for reasons outside of how they are reading me and it is precisely because of the way they are parsing my slot i think they have viability to be town - now

How about IV?

Anyways.
What do you think of IV? They outted your hood btw

This is incorrect. I will not expand further.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t have a view on IV yet. The evil laughter with their vote on you made me laugh haha I won’t pretend to have a solid view there yet.

[Andresvmb]

viewtopic.php?p=12074280#p12074280
Btw here's proof of me beint against hood claiming as town, and it being scum trying to suggest claiming. Thus why I was immediately on top of IV claiming his after i warned not to.

I hope no one sees this and immediately assumes you’re Town for pushing the same strategy you did when you were proven to be Town. It’s too easy.

And IV is not technically doing what you’re claiming they’re doing. It’s one thing to encourage other players to Claim. It’s another to jokingly slip that you’re in a hood.

[Andresvmb]

I’m a bit sick unfortunately. I’ll be back tonight @Mod.

[Andresvmb]

I felt worse than I anticipated yesterday, but I will return to this tonight. I don’t have much time during the day unfortunately.

[Andresvmb]

Alright, I probably won’t have time to read really in detail but I’ve been reading most posts and have a vague sense of what’s going on. Unfortunately until I do a deep dive, I won’t be able to place a vote with confidence. I can’t say that I trust Wright and Justice in this game just yet, so I can’t sheep there either.

@Flea, you gave me some good vibes. I think you’re probably the only slot I wouldn’t vote. IV seemed okay actually, but that’s about it.

[Andresvmb]

649 - Yeah I just have to read every post before I can tell you what I feel. And you’re right that I’m not particularly good at reading you actually. But that’s mostly because I tend to give you the benefit of the doubt more often than not btw (I TR you too often is what I’ve found, but we work together well once we’ve overcome early uncertainties).

[Andresvmb]

@Koba I had early pings from Facebones. Frankly that’s all I have. I think Flea’s reaction to your fight with pirate mollie was highly Town indicative, and I have a general sense that IV is probably Town. That’s it though. Until I read the fight in detail, and really scrutinize Holden (who seems highly competent), I am hesitant to put a read out there.

[Andresvmb]

I think Wright and Justice can be partnered with HoldenGolden. I think they push the same agenda. I will elaborate on this later.

In particular this read on Holden is complete hogwash and meant to discredit the town fulcrum as well as leader ^

Holden is the towniest player by far this dayphase. I will not be taking criticism. There is overwhelming evidence if one even bothers looking in how Holden approaches the game.

So, I have been reading closely. Spent the last few hours just trying to absorb most of what’s been said. And I wanted to stop here. AliceK’s take that they felt you could be partnered with Holden matches an identical reaction I had reading through the game. And it has to do with how you both partnered rather seamlessly to sideline piratemollie.

You want to know what else I found interesting? Your pushes exactly solve for who the Friendly Neighbor is, provided you make the assumption that one of {GH, T3} is your Partner (which based on in-game interactions, seems entirely possible, though I’m going to agree with the majority of posters here that T3 seems like Town).

[Andresvmb]

IV is pushed to the brink, reveals who their Neighbor is, and then all of a sudden you back away (despite the detailed, rather compelling case from GH I might add that you never up to that point actually went back over, and after you confidently declare them Scum based on meta and their self-sabotage) to push on a slot that could clearly reveal who the last Neighbor potentially is (and since you’ve already revealed who your Neighbor is in piratemollie, there’s really not that many choices left).

[Andresvmb]

Now I’m going to go finish reading, so maybe I’ll change my mind. And yeah, I can’t say that I think Holden is Scummy individually actually. They have a straightforward way of looking at the game and again, seem mighty competent. But it’s miraculous that IV got so close to the brink, revealed who their Neighbor was, and all of a sudden the votes there disappear as does the case. I need to read through the progression obviously, but I’m intrigued. This game is a very interesting read actually. I have a feeling the Scum Team is playing at a high level.

[Andresvmb]

i actually don't love that koba backed off me so quickly it's weird and almost pockety that they were lockscum on me and suddenly are voting someone else.

They thought you were the Friendly Neighbor. But then doubled down and got on an IV/Mollie scumteam trajectory and then you claimed, and then they backed off. They were trying to link you to Alice before you claimed a hood with Facebones.

They are looking for the FN. Not scum.

Which has been my point for a while now.

I mean I am coming to the same conclusion. It’s actually somewhat blatant.

[Andresvmb]

I was hesitant to push on IV earlier because I thought they were FN for a while - mollie knows this. If I was scum who had an agenda of just outting the FN I just skip that step and push them or just let the townies push them when theyre already getting pushed.

Like this makes no sense. You thought they were FN, so you held on pushing them, but then why didn’t you question Holden’s case more aggressively? It came quite early, so you should have pushed back on it somewhat if your belief that IV was FN was genuine. But… you didn’t. You quoted it multiple times as legitimate in fact.

[Andresvmb]

I've been communicating with him, albeit rather cautiously. It's not like I've been flat out ignoring him or anything. The opening few posts of the hood was a straight up scumfession from IV who had been allegedly suffering from a guilty conscience and it made me mad paranoid. I felt like I had to pick my words carefully/not get into detail because it might make it's way into the maf PT which would only aid their cause

Huh. Fascinating.

[Andresvmb]

Mollie
Wj
Holden
Facebones
Flea
IV/Andres
Alice

I can see where this is coming from.

Btw if AliceK flips Scum, execute IV without prejudice.

[Andresvmb]

Andres - I understand being sparse in content is NAI for you ,particularly now. However - we have little time left now. Please at least force out a perspective by now. I think you should try to read in the slots that aren't Me(because you have uh yeah been inaccurate with me)/Holden/Mollie, and I wanna know how you feel about players like Flea/T3/Alice/Facebones

I might be overthinking things frankly, but I need to let my thoughts settle for a day and I’ll come back to it tomorrow.

In summary, I read through Holden’s case against IV and I thought it was well thought out, reasonable, compelling. I can see why one would immediately TR it. Hell, I did. Which is why I understand why you keep asking piratemollie about their opinion of the slot - it’s the strongest TR you have, and so you want to see how other players read there for I’m going to guess a simple reason - to figure out whether they are looking at the game similar to how you are (which might help sorting them). If you flip Town btw, I would take that particular read to the grave. And yeah, I think it was Flea who said that they can’t understand why anyone forms lockTown reads D1. I disagree - in a select few instances, some players really Town tell to the point that they don’t make sense as anything but Town.

T3 is notoriously hard to read, but I have now made detailed cases against them in two games when they were Scum, and they’re just not pinging me here at all. So I would place them as Town until something changes. They just haven’t been chaotic, and I haven’t seen any perspective slips (which T3, you did have in that game you were complaining I had you from meta, which wasn’t true. I just didn’t point it out in time).

Flea has a relatively high degree of emotional content - which screams Town to me. They’re not really forming solid reads so it’s hard to base it off of anything else.

Now, IV is interesting. They have a few posts in there about how Holden should not be Town locked entirely, and could be deep Scum. It’s either Town that’s deeply paranoid, or Scum trying to make sure the execution pool stays as wide as possible. The thing about this game is that the options for Partners start dwindling quickly once the hoods are revealed (and for the most part, we know what they are). So Scum have to resort to this somewhat. Otherwise the pool narrows too quickly. It’s why hunting for the FN is key (and why piratemollie’s skepticism of you Koba makes some sense to me).

Facebones is probably okay. I liked the thoughtfulness behind 466. Now it does express a SR of the W&J slot, so if that’s wrong it’s something to think about. But the analysis itself didn’t scream Scum to me.

I am not entirely sure what to make of AliceK yet, but I have strong reasons to think that if they do flip Scum, then IV should be executed.

[Andresvmb]

Andres - I understand being sparse in content is NAI for you ,particularly now. However - we have little time left now. Please at least force out a perspective by now. I think you should try to read in the slots that aren't Me(because you have uh yeah been inaccurate with me)/Holden/Mollie, and I wanna know how you feel about players like Flea/T3/Alice/Facebones

I might be overthinking things frankly, but I need to let my thoughts settle for a day and I’ll come back to it tomorrow.

In summary, I read through Holden’s case against IV and I thought it was well thought out, reasonable, compelling. I can see why one would immediately TR it. Hell, I did. Which is why I understand why you keep asking piratemollie about their opinion of the slot - it’s the strongest TR you have, and so you want to see how other players read there for I’m going to guess a simple reason - to figure out whether they are looking at the game similar to how you are (which might help sorting them). If you flip Town btw, I would take that particular read to the grave. And yeah, I think it was Flea who said that they can’t understand why anyone forms lockTown reads D1. I disagree - in a select few instances, some players really Town tell to the point that they don’t make sense as anything but Town.

T3 is notoriously hard to read, but I have now made detailed cases against them in two games when they were Scum, and they’re just not pinging me here at all. So I would place them as Town until something changes. They just haven’t been chaotic, and I haven’t seen any perspective slips (which T3, you did have in that game you were complaining I had you from meta, which wasn’t true. I just didn’t point it out in time).

Flea has a relatively high degree of emotional content - which screams Town to me. They’re not really forming solid reads so it’s hard to base it off of anything else.

Now, IV is interesting. They have a few posts in there about how Holden should not be Town locked entirely, and could be deep Scum. It’s either Town that’s deeply paranoid, or Scum trying to make sure the execution pool stays as wide as possible. The thing about this game is that the options for Partners start dwindling quickly once the hoods are revealed (and for the most part, we know what they are). So Scum have to resort to this somewhat. Otherwise the pool narrows too quickly. It’s why hunting for the FN is key (and why piratemollie’s skepticism of you Koba makes some sense to me).

Facebones is probably okay. I liked the thoughtfulness behind 466. Now it does express a SR of the W&J slot, so if that’s wrong it’s something to think about. But the analysis itself didn’t scream Scum to me.

I am not entirely sure what to make of AliceK yet, but I have strong reasons to think that if they do flip Scum, then IV should be executed.

^hunting for the FN is key as Scum*

[Andresvmb]

Okay I’m caught up. Someone ask me something.

[Andresvmb]

Also, perhaps I need to detail why I’m being so skeptical of W&J. Because as much as I hate to say it, they will do anything and everything to win within the bounds of the game. I have seen them get into heated fights with their Partners, absolutely railroad players that weren’t sufficiently loud but had a good grasp for what was happening, engage in blatant manipulation, claim a nonsensical PR (and get away with it!), and even outright spam the thread as Scum. Everything that’s been said about their Town game is accurate btw - it’s based a lot on gut and emotion, but it tends to be mighty accurate. They can also switch on a dime. Which is why it’s so hard to pin them down early, and why I would caution anyone about forming a hard read of the slot unless they’re leading consecutive Scum executions and truly don’t make sense as Scum (though by then, they’re usually just NK’ed).

[Andresvmb]

Oh and I’m aware there’s only 2 Scum in this game. Which is the point - you can never be sure that Koba is Town here, unless they outright win the game (and the Scum will probably be too scared to keep them around for too long if they start hitting things on the nose).

[Andresvmb]

Also, perhaps I need to detail why I’m being so skeptical of W&J. Because as much as I hate to say it, they will do anything and everything to win within the bounds of the game. I have seen them get into heated fights with their Partners, absolutely railroad players that weren’t sufficiently loud but had a good grasp for what was happening, engage in blatant manipulation, claim a nonsensical PR (and get away with it!), and even outright spam the thread as Scum. Everything that’s been said about their Town game is accurate btw - it’s based a lot on gut and emotion, but it tends to be mighty accurate. They can also switch on a dime. Which is why it’s so hard to pin them down early, and why I would caution anyone about forming a hard read of the slot unless they’re leading consecutive Scum executions and truly don’t make sense as Scum (though by then, they’re usually just NK’ed).

You can stop right fucking there. Koba is not the only one steering this slot, and yet your words here illustrate that they’re the only one you’re really perceiving. That is extremely reductive and I want you to stop.

-Justice

It’s not reductive - I have a hard time reading a hydra slot, since it’s the same as trying to figure out two slots in one, and I have a much better sense for how Koba plays (even if I acknowledge that they’re really tough to fully settle on).

Oh and btw, you don’t get to tell me how I form my reads. So you can’t tell me to stop. I’m not being toxic, or minimizing your individual contributions (which btw there aren’t many, and you’ve already stated that your reads agree with Koba’s, so it’s not like there’s any meaningful differences even if your tones are different).

[Andresvmb]

You can start complaining if I personally attack you or pretend like you don’t exist. That’s not what I’m doing. What I am doing is cautioning players from settling on the collective read they have of your slot because I know a member of the hydra is willing to go to great lengths as Scum to win a game. Not sure what’s so controversial about that.

[Andresvmb]

You can start complaining if I personally attack you or pretend like you don’t exist. That’s not what I’m doing. What I am doing is cautioning players from settling on the collective read they have of your slot because I know a member of the hydra is willing to go to great lengths as Scum to win a game. Not sure what’s so controversial about that.

Do you think I’d sit idly by and let Koba do things I disapprove of? I’m pretty sure I’ve already had to bring them in a little. It just seems like you’re completely ignoring my influence, and that offends me. Being marginalized is one of my pet peeves.
This also feels like you’re throwing paranoia our way for very little reason. Do you ACTUALLY think we’re scum rn? If not, why the shade?

-Justice

You are assuming I’m ignoring your influence. I have never said as much. The idea that your slot is being marginalized is a bit laughable - the game state revolves around your slot to a large extent. And it’s not “very little reason”. I’ve played multiple games with Koba. They’re extremely good at covering their tracks as Scum, and of making pushes that seem reasonable and aggressive as Scum. For the record, I don’t think your slot as a whole is engaged in that, particularly since you’ve switched to mostly ignoring piratemollie while calling them Town. But if you had railroaded the slot and it flips Town, then absolutely I would be on high alert. I have already said as much. You’re almost asking me to be absolutely certain about your alignment with no flips or other information. It’s just not reasonable.

[Andresvmb]

I didn't find Holden's case towny since it is predicated on IV's readslist being scummy for being nuanced. I

do

wonder how much of this is impacted by my hard tr on IV.

I also find it interesting that Holden is saying that when a game is this sludgey, it usually indicates that scum are okay with the gamestate - which seems to be slowly moving to an AliceK lim - and then says that they will lim Alicek.

Let's be honest, at that point in the game, town was too dysfunctional for AliceK to be a scum!lim.

My biggest thing on Holden is that he is trying to force a narrative (scummy motivated) rather than to probe deeper into why there is a lack of a town cohesive one (town motivated).

And there is Gamma, and Gamma is pretty scummy here.

eta: lol. I guess Gamma went AWOL. That isn't Gamma., lmao

Well, here is where I would disagree. Holden could be wrong about IV. There’s some really excellent Town players out there, and still no one has 100% accuracy. But the way the case was laid out and explained - that to me seemed to come from a Towny mindset.

Holden has done this a lot (and it’s something I do too) which I think speaks to such a mindset: they lay down a general point of view as to what it is they’re looking for, and then they explain how it might be what they’re observing a specific player do. Holden has basically argued - Scum need to leave multiple avenues open for executions early in games, because they don’t know how the game is going to develop (and they need flexibility), and so they’re more likely to express wishy washy reads (I’m summarizing rather crudely, but I could quote the posts and I think it’s somewhat fair). Town on the other hand is just trying to figure out who is Town and who is Scum, so they might argue more forcefully for a specific read early in the game (on average, Scum do tunnel, it varies, but you get the gist). What was IV doing? Being wishy washy, expressing significant uncertainty with every read they made, and in fact repeatedly emphasized how they didn’t have any Town Reads or Scum Reads (just Leans). You might disagree with the assumptions or the conclusion, but it’s clear where Holden is coming from. That’s Town indicative to me. I could be wrong in assuming that obviously. So you could question

my

assumption, or highlight inconsistencies, or perhaps argue that there’s a specific agenda behind what Holden is doing or it’s not sufficiently well reasoned. But I didn’t read Holden’s case and think to myself “this is a reach”, or “this seems superficial”. It can be wrong, and it’s not beyond what a solid Scum player can do, but I have to go off of what I have now and I don’t find it Scummy.

On the point about the game state, I don’t know if the point about the game sort of being stagnant was made when AliceK was the leading vote getter - I would have to check. The general point is something I’ve felt in other instances, so I wouldn’t dismiss it out of hand.

I would prefer if you could detail specifically how Holden is pushing out a narrative instead of solving the game. I don’t think you’ve conclusively made that point.

And I don’t know if Gamma has been all that Scummy. Them getting all sensitive about how I’m discussing their contribution to the hydra far more often comes from Town than Scum I feel, so not sure I would agree with that.

[Andresvmb]

its been a sludge because the 2 main pushes have been mostly quiet and not active and hey - that kinda makes it *hard* to get movement.


notice how nobody is sheeping you on my slot now?

Are you a scumhunting genius now? That you can see through me so well when others have seen the same evidence and said basically "nah thats fucking NAI garbage"

humble thyself.

Koba I have seen you dismiss cases against your slot this forcefully as Scum though, so maybe take it down a notch? You can disagree with piratemollie’s case without minimizing their actual ability as Town.

[Andresvmb]

Thank you for bringing that up. It is sorta strange how quickly everything disipated after IV revealed his hood with me. The wagon which grew and suddenly disappeared on IV consisted of WJ, T3 and GoldenHolden, right?
And now T3 is voting Alice due to POE and agreeing with WJ's read?
It seems a bit sheepy and I'm not sure what to make of it.

Do you think it's possible that IV is scum here?
If IV was town, would scum let them off the hook so quickly after getting them to turn suicidal and being one vote away from hammer?

You might've been asked before, I dunno- what do you think about IV claiming to be in a hood with you? Do you think he was trying to fish for the FN?

I don’t know that I’m thinking of T3 as entirely sheeping W&J here, but I would agree that they’ve pursued similar avenues of inquiry, and at times adopted some of the same reasoning. But this is my memory of it - I would have to re-read the ISO to make sure I’m not just ignoring reality.

Yeah I think it’s entirely possible IV is Scum. I will say, that little tantrum they threw together with the self-vote - IV did that in a game we were in together as Town. But they maintained the self-vote and was actually executed (and I was the one that pushed them really hard initially, arguing they Scum slipped, and then I realized I was wrong and started defending them). Here, they didn’t maintain the vote for that long, though I wasn’t around for it.

The interesting thing about that little joke claim is that I have a hard time seeing when it ever works as a pro-Town tactic. I am mostly dismissing it as NAI right now, since I think it would be a stretch to argue it was an outright fish for the FN.

[Andresvmb]

Okay I think I have given enough time on this and I’m not getting a response.

I highlighted 701 in the way that I did because in my hood with AliceK, Alice did something very similar to start the conversation. They told me they had a secret to share, and that they were Scum. In response, I indicated that I was fascinated by the reaction test, and would not use it against her if she was using that to see if I was Scum by taking the easy out.

Though the test itself didn’t ping me any which way, I thought it was fascinating that Facebones faced the exact same reaction test in their hood. That’s a bizarre coincidence. It seems almost pre-planned, but I am also thinking that it’s a completely silly way of giving away the Team.

[Andresvmb]

This is why I’m arguing that if AliceK flips Scum, then IV should get executed.

[Andresvmb]

I didn’t want to have to out this, or my hood, but I do really feel like it’s just too much of a coincidence and I can’t hide in. Particularly because if AliceK flips and flips Scum, I’m getting NK’ed and this information would die with me.

[Andresvmb]

^hide it*

[Andresvmb]

AliceK should be able to confirm the gist of the conversation, even if they disagree with what I’m arguing obviously.

[Andresvmb]

I’m just thoroughly confused as to what the odds are that two different people in two separate hoods would articulate a similar point to get a reaction of some sort out of the other hood member. Like if they’re both, that’s really absurd.

[Andresvmb]

^both Town*

[Andresvmb]

At the same time, I feel like it’s too silly and I don’t want to use that to establish a vote.

[Andresvmb]

But I’m almost compelled to VOTE: AliceK.

Last I checked that was E-1.