Micro 1041: Geriatric F11 [Postgame]
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joqiza Goon
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Infinite town. You go on the site to towntell, but the towntelling never stops coming out of your posts. You have to start refreshing the thread every two minutes to keep up. You try to clench your hands closed but that makes your insides hurt. The towntelling accelerates. You call 911. The paramedics call for doctors. The doctors call for specialists. The story trends on Twitter. You turn down talk show appearances. Your keyboard fails. People form a cult. Your computer is finished. Volunteers arrive with mutes and sitebans. You are completely used to the post spam. The towntelling accelerates. You are moved to a personal thread in your own sub-forum. The towntelling accelerates. The volunteers abandon the site and flee to MafiaUniverse. The towntelling accelerates. A candlelight vigil forms around the site. One of the workers starts reading and can't free himself. The towntelling accelerates. Someone tracks you down IRL and tries to disconnect your wi-fi. Your posts keep coming anyway. The towntelling accelerates. The force now propels you forward and upward. Vigil-goers grab at your legs. The towntelling ignites from their candles. The Facebook live event hits 1 million viewers. The towntelling accelerates. You are 30 feet in the air. The fire engulfs the vigil and your house. 60 feet. The towntelling accelerates. The torrent underneath you is deafening. 5 million Facebook live viewers. You try to close up shop but the thread disintegrated long ago. 120 feet up. Your house explodes. The towntelling accelerates. 1000 feet. You are now tracked on radar. You try to change your angle of ascent but you should have thought of that way earlier. The towntelling accelerates. 4,000 feet. NORAD upgrades to DEFCON 3. Concentric circles of fire engulf your city. The towntelling accelerates. You have broken the sound barrier. 30,000 feet. You no longer take in enough oxygen to sustain consciousness. 60,000 feet. CNN is reporting on all the post-count records you've broken. 200,000 feet. You are no longer alive. The towntelling accelerates. Your body disintegrates but your posts keep coming. NASA can no longer track you. You break the light-speed barrier and we can no longer bear witness. The towntelling accelerates. Forever.-
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joqiza
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joqiza Goon
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Going to ask you to cite examples of town lolhammering someone in RVS because it's pretty rare in my experience. I'm not sure I believe thatIn post 17, Andante wrote:town lol hammers all the timeyoubelieve that you were just going to get run up and die.-
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joqiza Goon
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Your post doesn't actually match what she's saying. Andante's claim is thatIn post 21, Dwlee99 wrote: I've seen lolhammer in RVS, typically from scum though, or in a meme game. I don't think it is scummy to question that line from Andante but I don't think that line is AI from her either.townlol hammers all the time, not scum. Her top SR is Roadkill for putting her on E-1, the implication being that Roadkill is scum hoping a town might lolhammer her.
There are two questions here. One is whether what Andante is saying is true. I think it's not. I don't think town lolhammer in RVS very much, I think early E-1 wagons are pretty standard, and if Roadkill is scum I don't think that's his angle. The more important question is whether Andante believes what she's saying to be true. Maybe that's the case, and she's had specific experiences that lead her to this belief-state. Hell, maybe I'm just wrong on my first assumption and town really does lolhammer all the time.
I'm writing this post because you said her post was NAI. I think that's sort of true but I found the way you said it reductive. It's an early lead that might go somewhere and we shouldn't brush it aside. I'm not condemning her for it but I want her to explain once she's back from V/LA.-
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joqiza Goon
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joqiza
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joqiza Goon
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"Bad" is a loose term, anyway. What did you even mean when you called her post bad? Did you mean it was a post a wolf was more likely to make? Did you mean it was anti-town or illogical? Did you simply disagree with what it was saying? Those are all valid interpretations and even though I assume it's the first I can't actually be sure.In post 36, Umlaut wrote:Oh well if you say so.
Everyone, Esther has clarified that her post isn't bad, nothing to see here.
You could be calling her post bad and she could be denying it and you might even both agree with each other but you have different definitions.
I've used "bad" as casual shorthand myself so I'm not trying to act superior. I've just given it some thought and maybe instead of calling things "bad" (or, on that subject, using the impossibly vague and somewhat offensive "gross") we could make it a habit to explain what we mean in precise terms.-
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joqiza Goon
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To put what I said into practice... I'm assuming bad means wolfy here, but why is 4th, 3rd... wolfier than 3rd, 3rd?In post 35, mc esther wrote:actually he was just third on both wagons, that's not anywhere near as bad.-
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joqiza Goon
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I'm not surprised at the adverse response. No one likes it when their use of language is critiqued. I would just say this, though. I think that we as humans are generally biased to think our arguments and reasoning are more self-evident than they actually are to other people.
When I read 16, I also thought it might be "bad." But my bad is different from your bad. My bad was: I doubt the speed of the wagon indicates anything at all. But my "bad" feels different from your "bad" because your bad is more about towny vs. wolfy whereas I see poorly applied resistance reads from town all the time and so I shrugged that off. What makes it more complex is that I did also wonder if 16 was a wolfy post. Not for the reason you said, but rather because "kinda idk" seemed wolfy to me from what I doubt is anything other than random pattern matching.
I know phenomenal players who just quote posts, say "bad" or "wolfy" or variations of that and follow-up only when necessary. They read consistently above rand, have a reputation for doing so, and effect the chops they want. I'm not arguing you can't make that playstyle work and if you want to play closer to that paradigm be my guest. I'm more quietly dreaming. One last thing to note (and this one I know will fall on deaf ears) is that calling people's posts bad is just mean.
I think 39 is a good post. It's encouraging communication and is very noble and I think it had an effect on how you wrote 58. And if you keep it in mind my job will be accomplished whether you admit it or not.-
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joqiza Goon
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joqiza Goon
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Meh whatever. I'm thinking about it more and getting after people on language use is pointless. Y'all can talk how you want to talk.
It's just something that has bothered me for a long time. Quote a post and call it bad. Call it weird. Worse, call it "gross" or "disgusting." Quote a post and say "I hate this." Not saying any of those latter things have happened this game, but they've happened in my other games before.
Why is it so hard to call things wolfy? I don't even really like the word scummy. Scummy is still kind of offensive. No one wants to be scummy. Wolfy seems fine. Wolfy is like, I love dogs.-
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joqiza Goon
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joqiza Goon
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joqiza Goon
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joqiza Goon
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joqiza Goon
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joqiza Goon
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Andante your 83 is ridiculously uncharitable.
Do you really not understand why I was skeptical of your opening post? It's not something I've ever actually seen and asking you to give examples is not something crazy.
You can't even provide any examples. It would take one post to say "yeah here you go." In theory you shouldn't have to rereadyour own gamesin order to find one, that's what I'd have to do to verify it, but you'd just remember and be like... "Yeah, here you go. Let's move on."
FWIW I was prepared to accept something like "Yeah idk I can't think of any examples, guess I just spoke heat of the moment." But this is... A lot
Your other comments on my posts are so aggressive and... Unpleasant, some not even making any reference to what my alignment would be just attacking the way I post. Nowhere in my suspicion of you did I ever address you or treat you like that and given that we know each other and have played with each other before I want to believe it's just because I caught you and not because you actually think any of this stuff?
What does this reference to Dwlee and the turbo game even mean? It just confuses me.In post 83, Andante wrote:
64 "I really need Andante to come back. My train of thought is unresolved there and I feel like everything will click once I get a read on her." Is this to just buy you time to actually put any effort into this? "Oh I don't have to try till she shows up and links games" like, I'm pretty sure Dwlee was there for turbo mode game, and you're all " they ain't partners"-
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joqiza Goon
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Why even post this. So unnecessary and mean spirited. I hope your wifi goes down next time you wanna watch NetflixIn post 83, Andante wrote: 62 "Meh whatever. I'm thinking about it more and getting after people on language use is pointless. Y'all can talk how you want to talk." wow. pointless to go after how people talk? who'd have guessed?-
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joqiza Goon
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Andante idgaf if you tr me or Sr me. If you don't think my iso is towny I'm w/e, but if you make posts like 83 you can expect a response.
@SA what did I do to be your strongest TR
@mcesther why did you vote me when you did? You said you were thinking of voting me earlier but didn't find Umlaut's points convincing, then you voted me after andante posted. Does this imply you found andante's posts convincing or is something else going on?
VOTE: Three I want to see what shakes out from this.
All of you are wolves imo until I find mafia, if I had to bet my life on Villa reads it would be umlaut and roadkill but atm I have low confidence across the board. Players like mc Esther have towny pings at times but it's not like anything they've said is really unfakeable from a wolf alignment. Will expand on all of this in a couple hours when I'm on lunch break-
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joqiza Goon
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EBWOP: will finish it this evening, ran out of timeIn post 97, joqiza wrote:Will expand on all of this in a couple hours when I'm on lunch break-
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joqiza Goon
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Umlaut what you are saying with your analogy doesn't feel right to me because I wasn't really trying to catch Andante in a contradiction, I was trying to understand if it was plausible for her to believe what she purported to believe. To reframe your analogy fmpov, it would be like this:
Alice tells Bob, "Watch out while you're walking around outside today, there have been a lot of shark attacks in the area"
Bob asks, "When has there been a shark attack recently on land?"
After some consideration I figured Andante could fear being lolhammered in RVS from seeing lolhammer outside of RVS, and that wouldn't be that much of a logical leap, but at the time I just thought "Do you really think this is gonna happen now?"
Frankly I wasn't so much looking for her to actually put forward an example, I haven't even looked at the game she linked yet, I was just curious how she'd respond. I think I said what I was looking for in either direction earlier, but she kind of chose this third way which was over the top flaming all my posts and I'm still mixed in how I feel about it-
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joqiza Goon
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This is a misrep because I expressed my suspicion of Andante long before anyone outed any kind of read on me. Also, I fail to see how anyone actually reading the game critically could propose that this is what's happening when I basically made clear that I was waiting for her to come back rather than immediately condemning her. Asserting that someone has not towntold to you yet is not equivalent to calling them scum.In post 78, Andante wrote:like there are definitely joq posts I looked at like "I really don't tr joq" and him being fascinated by me here feels like maf trying to take advantage of the fact I've put 0 effort into this. it's like "Hey look!! yall may not tr me, but andante over there? looking like a real good vote!" like, just chill, it's still D1, I was busy IRL, here now... thus I'll be working on reads. Umlaut town is something I feel good about though, also have only skimmed so far.
I actually kind of agree / like this post, although it feels hasty.In post 79, Andante wrote: 2/10 - doing 1 post per person I think, just gotta figure stuff out
wh4t has less content than me?? an rvs vote + this?? It genuinely doesn't feel like there's any effort even here, like "you said something was bad? bad isn't a reason to SR, what about it is bad" that's kinda the vibe I get, 4 TRs and no reason for any? "I'm on my phone so I cant" like, you could give post numbers "I liked post 21 from SA" or whatever, like, yes I know we have limited postcount, but it's not an excuse to not give reasonings for reads, - just realized joq said the "bad part" I hated, so like, are you agreeing that joq had the bad post?? either way, for this being your ONLY post of anything. this is terrible, looks like maf posting once a day to avoid prods.
If you're calling 4 people town, I want something, or an immediate followup. "I'll explain later" ok, it's a new day now and still 0 explanation.
It is absurd that you phrase this as "wasting posts" when, as you ended up doing, you can just link the game along with another post. Given that Andante did eventually link me a game I will forgive the initial deflection here.In post 83, Andante wrote:4/10
has the highest postcount here - that alone means nothing, but I did notice that
ok, most of these posts are saying nothing, like you're all "go show me where town lolhammers" like what? do you want me to waste posts on that? waste time talking about something that barely applies here? I've had plenty of games recently, E-1's just got yeeted cause why not? and honestly, I'd probably yeet an e-1 for lols, depends, but that's besides the point.
Rereading this again makes me lean wolf on it because she's trying to characterize my request as something out of the ordinary. I feel my request was reasonable and this feels like it could be gaslighting.In post 83, Andante wrote:then in 23 you go on to talk about whatever lolhammer related thing, that again, REALLY doesn't matter here
When I look at my question here I think it's actually quite a good one. Esther's 35 was not at all straightforward, and as I look at your post here, I actually get the sense that you read my 40 with my ISO open without any regard for what esther's post actually was and whether it made sense for me to ask that when I did. It's true mafia often ask questions just to look busy, but to call it meaningless is wrong... we derived meaning from esther's response in 55. I think if you were considering my alignment genuinely, you would have included some reference to 35 here.In post 83, Andante wrote: 40 is asking a meaningless question, feels like you're just trying to look busy, like I don't get the point of it
No real comment here.In post 83, Andante wrote: 60 is all "the word bad can be used so many ways!!" like, an essay over using the word bad? how is that even relevant? who cares? you're the only one caring/trying to make a thing out of it
See above re: initial deflection.In post 83, Andante wrote: 61 yet another post telling me to link games, I'm not reading my past games, but there has definitely been speed hammers where town and maf hammered an e-1 like, a full DAY lasting a few hours? yeah.
Still don't know what mindset is required to post a comment like this. It's pretty hard not to see this as an attempt to belittle my concerns / make me look ridiculous in order to discredit my suspicion of her.In post 83, Andante wrote: 62 "Meh whatever. I'm thinking about it more and getting after people on language use is pointless. Y'all can talk how you want to talk." wow. pointless to go after how people talk? who'd have guessed?
I still have no idea what the Dwlee turbo mode game comment here means, and it's weird to me that she typed this up and posted it as if I would have any kind of understanding as to how whatever she is talking about should influence a teamread on them.In post 83, Andante wrote: 64 "I really need Andante to come back. My train of thought is unresolved there and I feel like everything will click once I get a read on her." Is this to just buy you time to actually put any effort into this? "Oh I don't have to try till she shows up and links games" like, I'm pretty sure Dwlee was there for turbo mode game, and you're all " they ain't partners"
No further comment.In post 83, Andante wrote: so that is the entirety of joqiza's ISO, and I don't like it, most posts here, and wh4t put more effort into the actual game... wh4t gave "reads" there is NOTHING of that sort in joqiza's ISO, joqiza probably maf-
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joqiza Goon
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Well, I did add "to me." That clarifies that it's my perspective rather than an objective truth. (The idea is I acknowledge/take ownership of my misreads and don't blame others for not towntelling in the way I expect them to.)
But I mean, yes. I do it all the time and I'm a hypocrite. I was cursing myself for getting on my high horse earlier today because I sorta just want to get toxic.
I guess it's the effort that counts?-
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joqiza Goon
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Why does the first half of 72 "scream" maf to you? That part of the post seemed fine to me. I think I agree with your take on 55. Note this is mc esther's response to the post that Andante accused of being a meaningless question. Rest here seems okay to me.In post 85, Andante wrote:5/10
I wouldn't necessarily say mc esther's ISO is bad, but it's also not great, first half of 72 screams maf, but 2nd half I can see town saying and actually kinda like. I can see 55 being town that just realized "oh wait I was wrong in that thinking" I've definitely had arguments like that where I go "wait it's not how I thought?"
I'd like to just see more in general from mc esther, I know overall it's a lower postcount situation, but still, not a whole lot given for TRs/SRs on people, voting wh4t without saying why? like, as I mentioned earlier about someone, a simple reason is good enough. "I'm voting wh4t now cause they're not talking" ok cool, a reason is better than no reason.
overall - need more from mc, basically agreeing exactly with 70 from Three
I guess I don't really have a problem with anything here. The conditional TR of sleepless is a bit of a complex thought, actually. This is the first post where Andante seems to go back and forth at all on my alignment.In post 87, Andante wrote:6/10
LOL I love the Dwlee/Roadkill stuff, it honestly feels like something I'd do as town, like, none of that feels forced, it's like a natural "haha got you both, vote your partner" whether or not it was a serious sr doesn't matter, it feels like something more likely to come from town. 31 is awesome the reasoning feels like genuine town to me, not maf stuck in a "oh no. must explain what I said. uhhh" only exception to me loving 31 is if joq and you are partners, cause it's either a town response, or maf talking to a partner, with 0 fear of being SRed for reasons. - which is awesome news that I don't tr joq. making life so much easier!
rest of your ISO is alright. it's like, if joq is town, I have no doubt you're town.if joq is maf, you could be town or maf. So I guess I'll go with town lean here, not as strong of a TR as Umlaut,Three, and mc esther might be above you, or yall are equal right now, thinking about it, I'm a tad paranoid of Sleepless/joq team, but I'm sure as there's more content, I'll be ok with a TR or I'll SR you, I need either more from you, or just need to let time go by and see
63 is "Umlaut, how is explaining my reads on Dwelee and Roadkill fluffy? Also your reads are about opposite mine so... yeah. This game could be awkward."
like, you're acknowledging opposite reads? you don't want to try and explain why a sr of umlaut is town? or why an umlaut tr is maf? instead of just calling it awkward, you could work with umlaut? just an idea. another perspective can sometimes help with reading people. Actually, this post is just telling me I need to revisit my read here later, we're gonna go withSleepless not town, but I'm also not entirely sold on Sleepless maf yet, so just in the middle, definitely want more in terms of content
Something caught my eye here. Let me get this straight: you're saying that upon your return to thread, your method of catching up was to ISO slots one by one.In post 88, Andante wrote:7/10 LOL ok, I have an ISO pulled up, and I type, I've realized not all my posts seem super clear with who I'm talking about. each person has their own post, and no I'm not concerned about post count, burn 8 catching up/making my thoughts clear on each person, leaves with 2 left, and there's 10 more soon
~ This post is on Dwlee (see, super clear! post before this was Sleepless) ~
lol Dwlee trying to pocket me I see... also if you know pony? idk you XD (maybe I do... idk lol)
I like 21!! it's like, kinda sticking up for me when I wasn't here "yeah it's not AI" like, thank you!! lol me getting hammered there was a genuine concern, cause I feel like I'm definitely the kind of person to get lolhammered
ok, thoughts on dwlee!
32 good reaction to the "bus your partner" also, did you just call out a bad read on you from Sleepless? like a forced read from sleepless? (ughh my brain doesn't work in ISO mode like this, but it's the easiest way to catch up.. Something there with Sleepless? who knows??)
Instead of... just reading the 5 pages of the game?
WTF?
I'm pretty suspicious of this read on Dwlee because I don't think Dwlee has been particularly towny. I think he has been more null and I'm not sure I believe how Andante is taking his posts here and reaching the conclusion that he's one of the towniest, unless she's just particularly partial to his defense of her. I think this could be a pocket attempt.In post 87, Andante wrote:
"My post was in reference to the fact that we only get 10 posts per day, but someone has to be the first to use one to get the ball rolling onto something. " like yeah, I think it was fin, even if it was a wagon on me, like, someone has to do something, and I fully believe maf was more likely to just blindly sheep a wagon than start one
My response to 38: Same. thus I signed up for this to litrerally just to show yall I can play off 10 posts a day instead of 100 lol
51 -LOL yeah! roadkill brings up a great point!! Why no wild spam this game?? suspicious.
57 are good takes, and the way you said them, you're not like trying to go "HEY WORLD HERE'S REAS!! TR ME!!" just a casual "thinking this"
Response to 74- what do you mean no memes?
uh yeah, so Dwlee is probably town, town lean, like, they're solving, but not solving for the purpose of being TRed (I think that makes sense) like, maf cares about appearance or coasts, there's no in between ever, So far my reads are looking like:
Town to Scum:
Three/Umlaut - tied for towniest
Dwlee
mc esther
Sleepless
Joqiza
and I need more from wh4t before I put them anywhere, I'm not putting someone in a reads list off 1 post-
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joqiza Goon
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I don't have a line-by-line breakdown of 89. There's nothing in there that strikes me too much, I mostly just think it's a whole lot of words that results in basically a nothing-read.
Last thing I will note is that I did read Andante's linked game. Hammer as referenced occurs here: viewtopic.php?p=13176390#p13176390. Not sure if anyone other than me even gave a shit about that. I don't even particularly care anymore as it feels like there are more AI things available.
I'm going to
VOTE: Andante
at least pending a response, because, I struggle to interpret a lot of these posts as town. One thing that I'm almost certain of now is that Andante did not read the game when she returned to thread, instead she started opening up ISO's one-by-one and started doing her write-ups on slots. I think this based on her own comments directly, and just a general sense I had that she's unaware of context (i.e., calling my question to esther meaningless, while deriving a read from esther's response to that same question.)
This method of reading itself is not necessarily something a villager couldn't do, but it's a strange choice to make in such a short game, and feels indicative of a wolf forcing content by checking off the ISO's one-by-one.
The reason I waited a bit to go through these posts is because I wanted to make a response that wasn't based on emotion/partiality.
I do have some reservations. One is that Andante's sudden string of posting demonstrated a lot of energy which did feel a bit towny to me while it was being delivered. The second is that I wonder if Andante is spewed town by the threadstate, as Dwlee/Three (and Umlaut, I should note, though I read him as uninformed), and indirectly mc esther, have essentially defended her posts or sided with her. I am encountering a sort of resistance that, in my experience, has not signalled d1 wolf flip.
Regardless, her posts feelbadenough that I'm happy voting here.-
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joqiza Goon
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Very dismissive post tbh.In post 115, mc esther wrote:do you usually pbp someone so comprehensively just for scumreading you? idk, "comprehensively" is the wrong word because you no-commented about half of it, but the point is that you quoted (all of? a huge portion of?) a scumread just to say "no im not" and then omgus (okay, "omgus" is kinda uncharitable here, but i think your case is overall very unconvincing). i'll admit that i want to see an answer to "why did she evaluate a question she got information from as non-useful?"; overall though, your posts seem, idk, kinda overblown as a response to an [imo] thoroughly ordinary (if a little long and questionably-structured) scumread.
I went through all her posts and tried to break them down because I found parsing her posts pretty difficult. Either she is just thoughtspamming as town or she is writing a gish gallop as a wolf. Either way it poorly formatted and I had to convert it into something easier for my brain.
The other thing is that she is going through ISO's and referencing people's posts, so it's useful to me to break down her lines like I did so that I could open up the posts she is referencing and try to determine if it makes sense for her to believe what she's posting based on what she's reading.
I suspect no one else actually read her posts closely.-
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joqiza Goon
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I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't understand this. What was the "given game state" and why wouldn't scum try-hard in it?In post 116, Dwlee99 wrote:Andante has zero reason to tryhard like that given gamestate if scum. Don't understand the vote there at all-
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joqiza Goon
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To respond to 120:
I'm in a position right now where I'm pushing a scumread and getting absolutely no traction. Perhaps contrary to popular belief I do not see this as a good signal. From my perspective all the points I'm bringing up are being ignored and Andante is being defended for reasons I don't think are particularly AI.
There are two universes in which this could occur. In the universe where she's a wolf, she has at most one wolf partner to defend her; in this universe there are multiple villagers who are just completely blind to her scumminess. The other universe is the one where she's town and in this one there are two wolves who could take the position to defend her, my scumread is based on my own flawed perception, and there are villagers defending her because they're picking up on the town notes that I'm unable to see. When I compare the two universes I need to ask myself the question, "Do I really think I'm smarter than everyone else?" And the answer right now is, not really, no.
I've correctly tunneled a deepwolf against thread consensus before, but in those situations I've been very, very confident that said person would flip red and this is not the case yet.
My vote here is far from toothless though because this kind of thread state read is only one thing I'm considering and I have enough problems with her posts that currently outweigh it. I want to see what her answer is to what I brought up.
To respond to 119: I'd like to townread the effort, too. It's strange to me that your response to my case is simply that you "Don't understand the vote." If you are town I'd expect you to be trying to parse my motivations and your response is as if I placed down a naked vote without further clarification. What is your read on my motivations? And do you have a response to the specific points I brought up about her?-
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joqiza Goon
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@Andante
Asking for my reads on the other slots is a fair ask so I will do so. If you're town I am begging you to give the game at least one chronological readthrough or skim when you catch up. I have nothing against you ISOing but it feels like you are picking out individual posts without any idea of the context they exist in.
Also, as for responding, it would help if you respond to the specific questions I asked you. My reads on the rest of the game are as follows. (You asked for it so here comes the spam.)
~
First of all the two slots I'd put as town areUmlautandRoadkill. Aka if a bookmaker were to offer me odds at rand, I'd bet some money on them being town. But not an enormous amount. Of those two,Umlautis my strongest TR by far. His posts demonstrate he's both paying close attention to the game and thinking critically about it. His read on Dwlee in 58, the way he considered my posts there, and the analogy he provided in 99, just really feels like town thought to me. It would not, like, absolutely shatter my universe for him to be scum, but if he is we are all fucked since he's already capable at playing at a level at which he won't get caught. I can go into more detail if needed, but it's somewhat hard for me to articulate, and it seems like a consensus read anyway.
Roadkillis my other townread. This one isn't as strong but I noticed he is paying incredibly close attention to the game as well. For example, in 68 he pointed out that Umlaut has sort of parroted other arguments in thread, which is something I also noticed. His take on was the exact same as mine, too, because he didn't necessarily see it as a scumtell but more as somethingcurious. His tone in general feels inquisitive in a towny way. He has fallen off a bit but promised to catch up today.
So, starting with a base of those two slots, we can try to reason out who is scum in a universe where we are both town. You asked me to think of it as finding your partners, but that won't necessarily work for me. For example, if you were to flip red, one of your potential partners might be Sleepless Assassin, because of the post where you said you'd have no doubt that he's town if I flip town. That seems like an ideal if possibly too blatant way to lim a townie and townread a partner. However, that connection only holds if you're red.
The other thing is that there is a very specific gamestate present if you're town. Although I've made it clear now that I'm still considering, I think at first it might seem that I'm very locked into my scumread. And from you, it would certainly appear the case that you were committed to scumreading me. So mafia will be playing around that accordingly and using the TvT as a vehicle to get through today, and possibly tomorrow. I've been keeping my eyes open and analyzing accordingly.
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First ismc esther.I thought her vote on 84 might be opportunistic, given I didn't think your case was convincing. On the other hand, I could see the response just coming because, she started TRing you, and given the context you being town automatically raises my scum equity. I'm not really sure yet. I've looked some of her posts because they feel like she is being honest about her process, and in posts like 55 she says things that are basically like, "it just felt that way to me" and I do kind of intuit how she could feel that way. I think that is difficult to fake as maf and have it actually hit right. I also like that she questioned my resistance read in 120 because this makes sense for her specifically to question, given the way she was reading resistance earlier in the game. So, this slot could be town.
Next isSleepless Assassin. Frankly I am inclined to this slot because he defended me in 102 and I would love to believe that this is just town with a good read on me. However, realistically, I'm not sure that anything precludes that from being a pocket. Looking at his other posts I'm mixed. One thing that was felt weird to me at the time was the fact that after our discussion about town not really lolhammering, he went ahead and scumread Roadkill for the E-1 thing without really seeming to directly reference the conversation we just had. So this is contrarian, but I'm not sure if it's in a towny way or scummy way. I guess I don't know. His early reasoning on both Dwlee and Roadkill felt and still feels flimsy, but it was also early day 1. I think I'm not really townreading this slot, but I do want it to be town. I also kinda think mafia would just angle a TvT to get me limmed rather than knight for me but w/e.
Dwleekinda sus because he just seems to be slapping the TR on you without really digging into why or where a push from you is happening. I'm referring to 21, 74, and 116. 74 was particularly eyebrow-raising to me because you hadn't posted at all yet so he'd just gone from saying one line from you is NAI to saying you were towny without really clarifying. That all said, as dumb as it is I like how he said "kinda townie" in 74 because it feels like he is kind of sheepish in saying it but feels the need to say it anyway, which would feel like a thing a villager would do. IDFK this dude needs to make their thoughts clear.
Wh3tis just wildcard slot to me rn, first glance was that I thought he was being a contrarian asshole to me and I townread it, second glance was whatever those four townreads need to be explained. Now I'm just waiting on the replacement.
ThreeI don't think is particularly scummy from just his own posts but I'm suspicious of how he's seemed to stay out of the conflict between our slots entirely. He is confirmed to be here due to 106 so he should have a stance on your alignment and mine by this point. He is saying some of the right things at the right time for me, such as TR'ing Umlaut and Roadkill when I did, but I don't vibe with all his reasoning. I.e. he ostensibly TR's Roadkill for pushing us out of RVS which seems... IDK actually as I type this it seems w/e. This slot is where I'd expect a wolf to be in a TvT but that's circumstantial and it might even just be obvious town, in which case I will probably get lambasted in every direction for daring to SR it and then I will know.
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Tried to format this as best I could, I know it's a lot. I'll have a bit more time this evening when I get back from work.-
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joqiza Goon
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joqiza Goon
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To be clear, I don't find ISOing strange, I just find it strange to return to a game after two days and not choose to at least skim the thread before diving into ISO's and putting out conclusions on slots. I've always used ISO's as tools to better understand a game rather than as the main method of delivery, so that was difficult to swallow.In post 123, Umlaut wrote:
I don't think this is actually that strange (I did pretty much that to form reads on the players in my "that leaves..." category in my earlier post) but even if it were strange, how is it alignment-indicative?In post 113, joqiza wrote:Something caught my eye here. Let me get this straight: you're saying that upon your return to thread, your method of catching up was to ISO slots one by one.
Instead of... just reading the 5 pages of the game?
WTF?
Also, like, I just had this moment while reading through her posts. She called my question to Esther meaningless, and I thought, "was that question really meaningless? I don't think what Esther said was clear at all. Does it make sense to call this meaningless?" And I got the sense that, andante hadn't even really thought about whether my question made sense in context, she just called it meaningless, just because.
Then I get later in her posts and she says she's ISOing and I realize she's numbering her posts for each slot, and I have this mental facepalm moment, because I realize what's happening. She's going through the ISO's one by one, and like, the post Esther made, and the question I asked her, aren't even connected in her brain, they're like two completely and unrelated spheres. And I just think Oh My God.
Do I think it's a wolf? God I really want it to be a wolf, and I think I have the right to think it's a wolf because wolves have every incentive to do that, just ISO players one by one and take surface level readings of their posts and call them scum. But do I really REALLY think it's a wolf? I don't know, I just think Oh my God. She is deadset on me being scum when I'm ISO 4/10 and she's read less than half the players in the game. Oh My God.-
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joqiza Goon
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My surprise isn't that her posts were ISO's. It was that she hadn't read the game first, and was saying as much, unabashedly.In post 134, Roadkill wrote: however...
this might seem a little... 'really dude?' but did it take you that long to realize that andante was doing individual isos?
and onto points that probably matter more, what is the incentive for andante to approach the game like that, as either alignment? you've touched a bit on why she does as mafia, but why as town?
(you seem like you enjoy these sort of tangents/thought experiments in game but if it's not something you'd want to use up a post on i understand, but i think that... ah. understanding the motivations a bit or trying to helps sort beyond the 'oh my god' state you're in?) (i have my own interpretations as well that i'll offer if you want but it defeats the point a bit, to go first when i'm asking.)
also, do you consider yourself a dramatic person/have a flair for it?
[3/10] (my spoons are rattling away swiftly, so i'll return later with more comfort/attention.)
I'll do my best to explain this. The initial suspicion I had was that she was a wolf picking things out of my ISO, but even in this universe I had, it would still involve her having read through the game first.
Like in my view the diametric opposition is:
- Town reads the game, might open up an ISO to try to get a better read at a slot, with that game context in their head
- Wolf reads the games, might open up an ISO to try to make a case against someone, selectively ignores context in order to make their push
And at first, like where I was talking about the "my question, mc esther response" thing before, I thought that she was falling into the second category there. My realization upon reading the part of her post where she says...
...is that she is doing neither of those things. I mean she is telling us right there, it's not like she is being deceptive about her reading method.In post 85, Andante wrote:(ughh my brain doesn't work in ISO mode like this, but it's the easiest way to catch up.. Something there with Sleepless? who knows??)
It seems like, you and Umlaut don't really share my view, that this is a strange way of digesting the game... maybe it's not? It is just really alien to me, and I can't ever imagine being able to... idk, be a person, who could come to a stalwart conclusion on a slot, by just ISOing it without actually reading the thread straight through. I think I had my Oh My God reaction because... well first it was just a sort of, "surely, this has to be a wolf, right?" and then I think, as time has passed it's more like, I have to figure out a way to communicate with this person, who plays the game very differently from me, if they are town.
To answer the dramatic person thing, yeah, probably. I end up spamming a bit more on this site for some reason. You can probably just... look at my games and see for yourself. All my recorded games are either on this site or mafiauniverse (same account name: joqiza). Homesite was EpicMafia but that site went down and my games there are no longer available.-
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joqiza Goon
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To respond to 136, I would say, yeah, some of me vs. Andante could be characterized as a slapfight, but not all of it? Andante extended me a bit of an olive branch with 121, and I responded with 124, which is my theorizing on other slots keeping in mind the possibility of a TvT... so to say I need to focus on other slots is sort of... well, it just doesn't seem quite right to me. I'm sorry if you think I'm long-winded but, on the other hand, it's a 6 page game. I really don't think it's that bad... (I've played in a 17,000 post game before, so.)
Are you able to explain what makes you so confident on this? In my view, he's sort of the conundrum of, lowposting wolf vs. LHF bait.In post 136, Three wrote:However I feel confident that I'm currently voting scum and would like to stay on Dwlee.
Not sure if the discussion about a Looker policy lim is serious or a joke but would add that I am down for said policy lim for the sole reason that his avatar is HORRIFYING.-
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joqiza Goon
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Mixed feelings on 136 as I look at it more because, well. When my eyes are glazing over in games I'm a wolf. As town it's easy for me to hang onto posts because it's an interesting mystery. And it's hard for me to self-eval, but like, I do think I had AI content in that "slapfight."
The Looker thing is like... actually pretty deadpan if it's a joke. I'll wait for follow-up.
I thought 135 might be a reaction test but Andante seems serious in 142. How is she so sold on these reads? The Looker suspicion does segue from her earlier post about Wh3t, but... I feel like I'm trying to collect scraps of posts to build a sense of each slot, and then I look up, and Andante has taken those same scraps and built herself a spaceship to Mars.-
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joqiza Goon
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Andante you aren't reading my posts... I gave you a whole reads list based on the premise of you being town, I'm in no way deadset on you being mafia.
I will even go ahead and UNVOTE: as Andante feels genuine in her last post.
I want to try to work with you... your Looker read could be tea but we can at least let the guy make an actual post or two first. Don't really vibe with the MC esther, I get that your theory is she's poisoning the well but I think her interpretation of Three's comment was valid. I say that because I got tripped up on the policy lim thing too.-
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joqiza Goon
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@Looker did you not look at the setup before you repped in? And have you read the whole game?In post 158, Looker wrote:This sequence makes me think it's mc esther and Andante, especially if there are only two scum.
I think that at least one of mc esther/Andante are town for the reason Roadkill posited in 162. Assuming you're not fully caught up yet, I'd be interested in hearing your take on Andante when you have the chance to do so. I've been struggling with my read there a bit and if you've seen her as both town and scum, your full download on the situation would be... enlightening, I think.
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@SAIn post 160, Sleepless Assassin wrote: I really thought you were about to say Andante/Dwelee could be a possible team. What made you think pocketing if you don't think Dwelee is likely enough to be town to have earned a spot in the middle of a reads list? What reason would Andante as scum have to pocket a town Dwelee?
My intuition is that Dwlee doesn't make 74 in a world where he and Andante are partnered. At that point in the game, Dwlee has the spotlight on him, and I'm crowing about Andante a decent amount. I just think it feels tooboldfor Dwlee to defend his one-post partner so randomly and so blatantly, in that situation. The second part of your question I'm not sure how to answer, I would say that town!Dwlee seems like a valuable game piece to scum!Andante since in this world he's basically just a potato who sits there and townreads her.
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We still have a couple days left. So, take your time, but. You know, don't take too much time. To give you a view of where my head's at right now, I'm trying to figure out if you're one of those players who struggles to post as wolf. Baring your thoughts for us a little bit would help me eliminate that possibility.In post 153, Dwlee99 wrote:My mind has been entirely not on this game. I'm gonna be up late probably and will take some time then on my computer to do something. On mobile right now and won't be able to give proper consideration to walls-
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I'm... very frayed right now. (Nothing related to this game). My main thought right now is that mc esther's posting on the past couple pages feels ridiculously towny. I don't know what I'm seeing differently from other people, but her consideration of Three feels like bleeding my obvious town regardless of what Three is. I'm shielding this slot and prepared to pay the price if I'm wrong.
My townreads are Umlaut, Roadkill, and MC E. Need to head back to work but will try to phonepost while my boss isn't looking.-
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joqiza Goon
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VOTE: Dwlee99
I just find their contributions really lacking, impressively so over a 10-day timespan. However, I'll be honest that no one reads partnered with them to me at all.
I would vote Looker or Three to break a deadlock, with a slight preference towards voting Three if the wagons were tied. No interest in voting any other slot today.
172 makes me think Three might believe what he's saying, though, @mc esther it seems like you interpreted him saying "I'm pretty sure the slot isn't being town read" as a 'retrofit' for his original comment, I think that's the wrong interpretation and he was using the statement as, like, an addendum for why Looker would be a good choice. Still find said original comment to be weird but just wanted to mention that.
@Looker I don't really agree with the Roadkill push, although, the two posts you quoted from Roadkill are actually two that I was initially suspicious of as well. And then, the rest of his posts start feeling much better to me. Have you read the whole game? (I feel like I've been asking you this.)
Reads list looks something like this:
if they're mafia I suck:
Umlaut/Roadkill/Mc esther
could be town:
SA, Andante
both wolves in here hopefully:
Looker, Three, Dwlee
Andante still feels weird. So many of her posts hit my brain and say "WOLF." but 122 makes me reconsider everything.-
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joqiza Goon
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Looker/Dwlee just feels wrong because you'd expect scum!Looker to bite on mc esther or Three wagons, rather than try to start one on Roadkill that probably goes nowhere. I could be wrong on Dwlee/Andante, but I really don't think they are partnered based on a lot of things. I think they have consciously tied themselves together too much to be scum together.
Dwlee/SA would be weird because of SA's push and Dwlee/Three is just suicidal.
My mind is flipping back and forth between these non-teamreads and a "don't do pre-flip associatives" mantra. Last-minute towntelling from the slots in my PoE would be appreciated, my mind isn't made up yet. I'll be working near deadline but should be able to be at thread for final minutes and flip.-
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joqiza Goon
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Ugh, okay. I'm considering it. Why are you opposed to voting Dwlee? The argument that it's uncharacteristic of him to not engage with the game felt, well... it was convincing to me, I guess. I've played with a lot of wolves who just struggle to post as that alignment. Do you disagree with that meta or is there some reason to TR him through it?-
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I don't really have time for this kind of cattiness, if you think someone is being survivalistic say it with your chest and we can go from there, as it stands I'm not sure who or what you're referring to.In post 211, Looker wrote:Are there any cases other than thinly veiled survivalism
The case on Dwlee is based on them being extremely passive, which, according to Three, is uncharacteristic of their town game. Dwlee hasn't rebuked this claim that I am aware of.
Case on Three is fencesitting a potential TvT between myself and Andante and a weird comment about policy limming you.
Not sure what cases are on Esther or yourself. Andante seems to think you are mafia for reasons that I don't understand.
Note that these are not exactly airtight cases, so yes, you reading the game prior to your replacement would be greatly appreciated. Your reads on Dwlee, Three, and Andante are what I'd be most interested in.Last edited by catboi on Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.-
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joqiza Goon
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Three, I think mc esther saw your "Looker slot isn't being townread" line, and assumed that you meant that, like, Looker saw that Wh3t wasn't being townread, and so used that as reasoning to sub in, lol. Which would indeed be a really weird and convoluted thing for you to think, but I also think that wasn't what you meant at all.
I could myself be misunderstanding, but I think there's a possible miscommunication there.
@Umlaut Okay, I'm weighing your post.
@Andante I'm not voting Esther, I'd go Looker. I'm debating between Three/Looker/Dwlee right now.-
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joqiza Goon
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joqiza Goon
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VOTE: Three
I reserve the right to switch if Three starts outing massive towntells. I need head to my second job where I'll be able to look at phone a bit less but will still be present and able to post if absolutely necessary. And I should be free and completely present for lasdt 40 or so min of the game day.-
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joqiza Goon
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joqiza
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Sup. Sorry guys. Back for real this time.
I need to review the past couple pages in more depth but as of right now, I'm still at Umlaut/Roadkill town. In the remaining matrix of possible teams I don't think Sleepless/Dwlee are partnered. Andante/Looker and Andante/Dwlee, I also think, are unlikely to ever be partnered. There may be further teams I can cross off my list, but need to sit down with the game and eval.
^ I will expand on the above thoughts this evening when I finally have some time set aside for this. (I promise.)
Also on my list is to review the Dwlee activity stuff (I... don't really think much of activity tells in general, more curious if there was a deliberate lie or omission somewhere in the previous conversation.) And I'd like to actually meta-dive Andante, to see if I can reach a point of confidence that she's town. I'm still undecided on her... partially because, I'm just having trouble "finding" her as town, and for reasons I can't go into I'm not sure it should be so difficult for me. But, if her posting does really put her out of scumrange, this game gets a bit easier for me.-
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joqiza Goon
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I want to figure out if it's in character for you to say, as town:
then vote mc, out her as cop, and then the next day, pivot to saying,In post 147, Andante wrote:Looker and mc are both literally maf.
without any trace of self-doubt.In post 354, Andante wrote:Looker and Sleepless are maf.
I'm considering Looker/Sleepless, but there are a few odd notes to consider, such as 247 and the subsequent post.
A few questions (which I expect you will ignore)
- Were you still SR'ing Looker when you put Dwlee on E-1 in 314?
- When did you decide me/Looker can't be a team?-
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joqiza Goon
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Below is my associatives matrix, which is something that helps me with sorting in small games.
I usually assess all teams, even those with my townreads, but I'm feeling lazy so I just eliminated any team with Umlaut/Roadkill. If one or both is scum then lolme I guess. I'd re-eval if I ended up in limlo with them of course but until then I feel they're just townier to me than the other slots in the game, by a lot.
In the below chart, red means I think the team is unviable/I've crossed it off my list. Yellow means I don't really think they're partnered but I guess it isn't unviable. Green means I haven't eliminated it as a possibility yet.
If you think a team I've marked as viable is unviable, or vice versa, let me know which one and why. I didn't include myself on the chart obviously, if you want one with me you can make your own.
Some explanation on the unviability reads:
3:At first I thought there was a chance Andante might be hellbussing, but at this point it just seems as if it's gone too far for that to be true. She hasn't dropped suspicion or pressure on him at all this game, d1 nor d2. There isn't even much in the way of potential theater, it's just straight Andante trying to noose Looker. Not teamed.
4:Similar case to the above team, just a lot of SA trying to noose Dwlee without much in the way of the theater/performativity you'd expect from an SvS. 202 feels too persistent to me to be what you'd say about your (somewhat endangered) mafia partner. It'spossiblethat SA simply calculated the Dwlee wagon wouldn't go through... but... nah.
5:I've spoken about this already a bit. I can't mark this as completely unviable since they've defended each other throughout the game. However, my suspicion is that 74 doesn't come from one mafia about their partner. Andante hadn'tposted anythingexcept her very first intro post, which I'd been critiquing heavily before that--I think scum is a bit too self-conscious to just gas up their partner's one post like that. 289 also reads unpartnered.
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I haven't gotten around to taking a close read through teams1,2, and6yet.
My individual social reads are prolly something like:
Umlaut/Roadkill (town)
Andante (? town.. maybe?)
SA (townread on me earns him a brownie point)
Dwlee/Looker (still need to dig into the Dwlee activity stuff).
The Dwlee/Looker activity argument may actually let me mark team 1 as unviable / determine at least one is town.
Will resume this after I watch some anime.-
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joqiza Goon
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In post 359, joqiza wrote:5:I've spoken about this already a bit. I can't mark this as completely unviable since they've defended each other throughout the game. However, my suspicion is that 74 doesn't come from one mafia about their partner. Andante hadn'tposted anythingexcept her very first intro post, which I'd been critiquing heavily before that--I think scum is a bit too self-conscious to just gas up their partner's one post like that. 289 also reads unpartnered.-
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joqiza
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joqiza Goon
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I'm TRing Looker I think. And I still feel good about Roadkill. I still don't think Sleepless/Dwlee are ever partnered, so that leaves me with two possibilities:
1) Andante is a wolf, and town!Umlaut's TR on her is wrong
2) I miscleared Umlaut and he's powerwolfing us
In possibility two, Umlaut's most likely partner is Dwlee, who he's been chainsawing for. (Could theoretically be partnered with Andante herself, but I think him saying he'd "eat a hat" if she flipped scum is... too bold for SvS).
Still need to dig into Dwlee activity stuff. Should have some time this evening.-
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joqiza Goon
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My responses in bold to the questions above.In post 368, Looker wrote:- Are you saying I'm only partnered with people I've voted?
Correct, although if you're town then accurate assessment would show you as unviable with everyone.
- Is Sleepless Assassin saying they have a townread on you really the only reason you're not voting for them?
Yeah, pretty much. If someone outs a townread on me I don't want to vote them unless I'm sure they're scum.
- Re:Andante/Dwlee - Are you saying that they can't be scum together because they defended each other in thread?
No, I think them defending each other actually gives them some equity, which is why they are only colored yellow rather than red. I explained why they don't read partnered to me in the original post.
Also, are you actually assessing the arguments people used to suspect each other or using this as an excuse to avoid reading a picking a side?
I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, but yes, I'm actually assessing people's posts.
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joqiza
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joqiza Goon
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Dead game tbh. Not that I blame anyone as there's nothing to go off of.
I read through from the top and I'm officially marking Dwlee/Looker as unviable on the teams matrix. Both for the argument on Dwlee's activity today and for the timing of 268.
I'm mustering up the energy to take a look at the Andante coalition scum game that esther referred to.
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