![Shifty-Eyed :shifty:](./images/smilies/icon_shifty.gif)
'k, gonna go read more than the first few pages now. WTF is with that Arko/Oc fight on pages 2/3, anyway? Did not care for Arko's posting to that point but going ALL CAPS over the word "technically", really?
Oh man I feel that so much. NVM, Aisa is town.In post 319, Aisa wrote: Day 3 of seeking an answer to this
I'm probably being a little petty because I can barely remember why I cared so much about this in the first place, lol
Now I know why I feel this slot so much...In post 362, BloodB0t wrote: That's right, I'm still the same limbaity badtown on a streak of dodging red role PMs.
In post 557, Bellaphant wrote: I really liked the catch up for town but dislike 555 quite a lot.
In post 572, Doctor Drew wrote:Also, this makes one of(if not both) Aureal and Vander town confirmed.In post 568, Enchant wrote: In long run it didn't matter it's all mafia ploy.
8 players
5 good
3 evil
And Aisa didn't vote for self.
So mafia helped.
In post 583, Bellaphant wrote: I guess I'd never seen it before? The reads from other people worked out in that depth seemed to have more scum than town utility. Especially in this game where we have to work out who's going to vote who If we end up at two two, etc. Can you talk me through your why a little bit?
Okay, I can see where you're coming from with that I guess, though I think trying to understand what scum's plan could be can be helpful.In post 588, Bellaphant wrote: @aureal, thats not what I said? I said it felt scummy because scum need to know more clearly with this mech who would vote who when, etc, Ans that's what it seemed a bit like.
I don't understand this either. The last stuff Aisa was saying indicated that she was very confused about how to feel about basically everyone. I don't think there's any 'extremely reliable kill' coming from her.In post 590, Bellaphant wrote: @vander it's the why I feel is missing? Maybe I'm tired but it feels like conclusions, not procees. This in particular ' understand why scum would want to send Aisa to heaven over me if they know that Ranger is town and they can get an extremely reliable kill there to win the game if they can lim someone other than Ranger today.'
Oh yes, absolutely.In post 593, Doctor Drew wrote: But as far as the Aisa read on Ranger, that really is a big wifom sandwich you are you are proposing here.
If I had explicitly spelled out the wifom argument as well for extra confusion and indecision, would it still be "defending without actually 'defending'"?Also you are defending Ranger without actually 'defending' her. A bit sketch imo.
In post 596, Bellaphant wrote: @aureal, aisa had been consistent about one of her trs being wrong, yeah. I'd been good with just auto-voting ranger or Dr drew but I haven't liked anything from enchant and they normally town it up, especially Inna game this mech heavy.
I don't know how I feel about what ranger said just then about aisa.
In post 597, Bellaphant wrote: For clarity, my read on Dr drew seems to flip every post they make: I didn't like their poarinf at all a few pages ago but liked their recent one. I don't know what that means.
Im pretty sure ranger/ox-enchant isn't scum/scum, can I get a sense check on that?
In post 608, AurorusVox wrote:I actually like the reasoning here from vanders, but as was then pointed out by Aureal, that was not a likely scenario to occur since Ranger was going to be likely limmed anyway…I mean, I can see a world in which vanders is making a play that they’re all about this scenario to distance from ranger should they flip scum with the ascension to heaven, but like, is anyone going to buy that after they flip?*In post 602, Vanderscamp wrote:In a world where Ranger and I are both town, if scum sent me to heaven yesterday and then get a miskill on a non-Ranger player today, they can probably just assume I will send Ranger straight to hell, right?In post 590, Bellaphant wrote: @vander it's the why I feel is missing? Maybe I'm tired but it feels like conclusions, not procees. This in particular ' understand why scum would want to send Aisa to heaven over me if they know that Ranger is town and they can get an extremely reliable kill there to win the game if they can lim someone other than Ranger today.'
So why not try to do that?
Aureal what are your thoughts here with the vanders questioning? Like I’m not sure what longevity a play has where vanders promises to judgement day Ranger if vanders is scum who’s looking likely to go to heaven?
Arghhh but then the thing that’s gnawing at me is I’m ALSO not sure why Ranger supported the vanders wagon, as town or scum that doesn’t make sense from Ranger if vanders is town. Unless it’s both of them are scum together and Ranger just got a bit eager and derailed his own partners wagon by offering support for it??
*actually…does vanders get more distancing cred with the above play if ranger is limmed, ie ranger flips scum and vanders then looks super townie for saying they’d judgement day them? Vs the distancing cred ranger would get if vanders was sent to heaven. Like could the play here have been gain the maximum cred for a d2 heaven vote for vanders???
:s
Like I said, our interactions have been pretty short-lived. In our first game he was coaxed into hammering me not halfway through the D1 deadline then everyone went quiet the rest of the game. He's replaced into a slot that was masons and that day didn't last 12 hours before there was a hammer and he got nightkilled. And he replaced into a banned troll's slot and was scum in a game which was winding down D1 and had many nightkills so all he had to do D2 was wait for a quickhammer opening.In post 610, Bellaphant wrote: @aureal, I'm pretty good at reading enchant! I'm surprised you've never seen him town it up, he often becomes obv! town, often by solving/mech, or obv scum by lack of engagement/effort.
In post 615, Vanderscamp wrote:Sure, but if Ranger is town, do you think it's better or worse for me or Aisa to be in heaven?In post 603, Aureal wrote: Because that "get a miskill on a non-Ranger player today" part seems like a potentially huge step? It seemed pretty likely then and still seems pretty likely that Ranger is the target today. You were calling for her to be snap limmed here and saying that if you were sent to the martyr thread that was your legacy.
You mean 547? "I think it's more likely they're town if Ranger is scum but I could easily be wrong. If I were 100% confident that it was spew, then I would townread him as strongly." This isn't really what I would call 'actively arguing against that line of logic'. This doesn't really have any sort of conclusion at all, it's a lot of handwaving. Rather like could come from a scumpartner who doesn't want to be seen as too strongly linked to Arko but not trying to actively sabotage Arko's rep since Arko needs to be credible enough to win a heaven vote (or not get chosen by the martyr thread on judgement day).In post 640, Vanderscamp wrote: How do you come to the conclusion that I spend about half of the game shitting on Ranger's Arko read, and then when someone (I don't remember who) asked me why I shouldn't have Arko as super town if I think Ranger is spewing Arko, I actively argue against that line of logic?
I like how you instantly responded to call your interactions "extremely unlikely scum/scum". As if that's exactly what you were trying to make them look like and are upset that someone isn't reading it like that. Doesn't really seem like a townie perspective- a townieIf that team "makes sense" to you with all of our imo extremely unlikely scum/scum interactions, wtf team does not make sense?
I don't think it should've been a surprise that you might vote her, no. I don't think it was entirely clear youIn post 647, Bellaphant wrote: @aureal, I don't think my aisa read was a surprise?
In post 645, Ranger wrote: Let me say as the party you both seem to think is scum; I believe you two aren't scum together, but one of you is certainly scum, pushing two town players as the team.
The key is figuring out which of you it is and then the likely buddies of that player.
Uh, I haven't even voted yet. I don't think you're paying a lot of attention to this. And the rest of that line makes no sense. You're the one who suddenly got upset and developed a scumread on me because I dared suggest that you could be bussing Ranger. Nothing remotely similar the other way around has happened. "I think they're bussing" - "shouldn't you be happy about it" is a rather silly train of thought. I think you're just trying to discredit the read.In post 653, Vanderscamp wrote: Well, by the same logic, shouldn't you be happy with my game-long push on the person you're currently voting for?
C'mon, this isn't that hard to think through. You were townreading Arko, but mildly, and arguing that Ranger's STRONG townread was in bad faith. You two got some mileage out of Ranger accusing you of hypocrisy for also townreading Arko- you haven't forgotten you were townreading him have you? Aisa asked if Arko shouldn't be spewed town if Ranger was scum and you basically said "I don't know". This makes perfect sense if you're hoping to get voted to heaven next phase and thus worried people will look back at that with the knowledge that you're scum.In post 655, Vanderscamp wrote: Arko read - someone's asking me "shouldn't you have Arko as super towny" and I explain why I don't.
That's my conclusion, it's not handwavey, and our conversation is the opposite of me trying not to sabotage Arko's rep.
Especially if you think I'm scum with Ranger, the best thing I can do in this situation is say that yes, I think Ranger is spewing Arko town and Arko would be obviously town if Ranger flipped.
If my goal is to look super good from hard bussing, why not do that?
Townie knows their interactions are scum/scum - Are you serious?
This is a higher level of "nitpicking" than whatever the hell OE was talking about on page 3.
Like, when I posted "FIRST" I know that I didn't do it as scum, because I'm not scum, but if someone tried to tell me that me posting "FIRST" was scummy, I wouldn't say "no way man it's impossible for this to be scum because I know that it wasn't a scum post."
I'm talking about what it should look like from your perspective and it's baffling that I would even need to explain this.
"It makes no sense for townVander to be outraged by a suggested team that includes the only two people he's scumreading." - I'm outraged in the sense that you saying this is extremely scummy because I find it very hard to believe that you actually think this.
Btw I agree with you that also hate Ranger's comment about there definitely being one scum between us, that made no sense at all and is scummy.
But I think your recent posts have also been extremely scummy and I think you're probably together.
In post 666, Ranger wrote:Difficult to explain exactly, but combination of gamestate and your reads/reasons.In post 652, Aureal wrote:"One of you is certainly scum" comes from where?
I am being near-universally scumread. You are the strongest two pushers of me being scum. You are both pushing me as scum with solves that are objectively terrible. Vanderscamp refuses to name a team of three, or even a team of two, involving me; your team involves Ranger-Vanderscamp.
The pushes are equally terrible and equally backed by bad logic. Yet, if you were scum together, you wouldn't be pointing out how the other's takes are terrible. Vanderscamp wouldn't be pointing out the flaw in your solve if you were scum with him; you wouldn't be so critical of him if you were scum with him.
Not following that logic. This isn't ELO, a quickhammer wouldn't end the game. If you're town, scum aren't all going to want to pile on just cuz since that will trigger judgment day for Aisa to make a last ditch effort to eliminate a mafiaoso. They ought to be worried about piling onto a bad wagon. Instead, what I saw was the two people I'm suspecting of being teamed with you voting you early and easily, which makes me feel they're not worried about being on a bad wagon. Even Enchant got worried at how fast that wagon got to e-1.The gamestate suggests one of you is scum because of how if both of you are town the scum would be doing absolutely nothing at all. It'd require all three scum within {Doctor Drew, AurorusVox, Enchant, Bellaphant}. Only one of them is voting me. If you were both town, then why have I not been voted by all three scum?
By the way, where does this come from? I don't see anything indicating you were reconsidering Vander before, you weren't shy about townreading him during the heaven phase:In post 648, Ranger wrote:You may have missed this, but I've been reconsidering my Vander read from as early as the end of Hell 1. I'm still figuring my read out on Vander.In post 646, Bellaphant wrote:@ranger, I asked you a question you may have missed.
In post 443, Ranger wrote: {Aisa}
{Vanderscamp, Bellaphant}
{AurorusVox}
{Bloodb0t}
{Doctor Drew}
{Oclaxian Empire}
Think I like this better.
In post 490, Ranger wrote:I agree Vander is town.In post 458, Aisa wrote:That’s maybe a townie perspective more than not.
In post 505, Ranger wrote: If Vanderscamp is town (my current theory), it's because the scum believe Vander in heaven is +scum.
Isn't making it seem unlikely that your partners are your partners kind of an important part of being scum? You're making an argument that it's unlikely that partners would spend half the game having protracted arguments and I just don't see what that's supposed to be so unlikely. There isn't a magic amount of arguing between people going on that erases their ability to be scum partners. I'm looking at theIn post 676, Ranger wrote: The words are backed by actions, and are not just words. Objectively, no solve isimpossible. Any team could happen.
Suggesting that team is disingenous, because the actions and words both back up it being quite unlikely.
From a post that got eaten by the thread being locked.In post 673, Aureal wrote:By the way, where does this come from?
Maybe I'm not making myself entirely clear here, but I think you ought to know what I'm saying with that. You're the one who strongly townread Arko because you don't think scum would think to say stuff he said in 26. That's what I did with Aisa, I was wondering about her a little and then she made one post that just resonated so much I had to call her town. And I was right. So yeah, I think that's a perfectly valid way of trying to figure alignment.In post 677, Ranger wrote:Well "from posting style" is a poor method of clearing slots in a team game where people have incentive to be strongly town as scum.In post 673, Aureal wrote:Ranger, if I'm to believe you're town, what sort of scumteam am I supposed to believe is reasonable? Bella and AV feel town from their posting style, so that would leave me just Vander/Drew/Enchant. And nobody thinks Drew and Enchant are scum together because of the Arko/Oclax fight to start the game.
Alignment doesn't change with the player.I'd also point out it IS worth reconsidering clearing the team from a fight involved between two slots no longer in the game. The Arko/Oclaxian fight looked unpaired at the time; it is worth reconsideringeveryassumption later on. In particular, the slots' more recent interactions.
Show me, then. What interactions between you do you think couldn't be faked? I haven't gone through a fine-tooth comb reading everything in the game with that lens. It's just something that occured to me, I posted about it, and the reactions to it aren't doing anything to send me in any direction other than continuing to consider it. After I posted about going through Vander's ISO, it didn't take long for me to realize that it was maybe a littleI feel your doubt of Vander-Ranger being antibuddies while clearing Drew/Enchant of the same is quite suspect for instance. There's far farfarmore evidence against Vander-Ranger than there is against Drew-Enchant.
In post 678, Vanderscamp wrote: VOTE: Aureal
Can you give an example of a team of three that has interactions and associative reads that you think makes less sense than Ranger/Me/Arko?
In post 717, Vanderscamp wrote: Because, while it's obviously possible from your pov that I as scum decide to HARD townside for the entire game, I just can't understand your perspective of thinking that this is actively a likely team from your pov compared to just a random three.
Like, you saw me play as scum in the Death Note game, and it's not like I was doing any real bussing at all in that game, I was pretty much exclusively pushing anti-town lines.
In post 751, Vanderscamp wrote: Sorry for that quote fail:
Can you explain that?
What was the reaction test?
In post 746, Aureal wrote: Bella, what do you think Enchant's motivation here is?
Sorry for trying to brainstorm in your mafia game. If you think my thoughts don't make sense, explaining why would've been more productive than going OMG YOU SO SCUMMY!!In post 712, Vanderscamp wrote: Ranger's first half of #676 and last part of #677 are pretty good explanations of why Aureal's stuff made no sense.
He? Who are you talking about here, me?He was giving a lot of credence to the Arco/Ox interaction as never being scum/scum, but not the Ranger/me interaction, when that interaction should have been far more obvious, and additionally I was the main person (correctly) advocating that Arco/Ox wasn't scum/scum, and he was putting me as the third member of that scum team.
It means exactly what it means. You spent all that time wanting to vote Ranger. Then after I said I was getting ready to do so as well, you jumped on me instead, apparently leading Drew to follow you because the other votes were on himself. If you'd stayed on Ranger I would've been a third vote there, and Enchant being Enchant would likely have hammered. You left me with the only option being to vote Drew out instead. I kept my vote out of play so long because there was no reason to risk the day ending quickly- I know Enchant likes hammers. AV was away, Ranger was sick, game activity was low in general, and I was trying to think and read things- that's not the time to rush a vote.In post 713, Vanderscamp wrote: Drew and I are open wolfing huh
Wtf do you mean "we could have voted Ranger here?"
You spent the entire day having the opportunity to vote Ranger and declined to do so, despite saying at the start of the day that my logic about Aisa or I getting voted to heaven was pointless because getting a non-Ranger mislim today was such an unlikely event.
In post 714, Vanderscamp wrote:Also, this post is complete nonsense.In post 690, Aureal wrote: Maybe it's confirmation bias but it's really hard to see these actions as something other than trying to get Drew limmed instead of Ranger because I spotted more opportunities to clear people based off of Ranger's flip. I've had the opportunity to hammer Drew for a while now but would have preferred Ranger for that reason. But with deadline 9 hours away, no word from Bella yet, and AV still vla I guess it's on me to do so soon here, before I go to bed. I'm the most confident that he's scum here anyway.
Wtf are you talking about with it being hard to see what I'm doing as anything other than trying to get Drew limmed?
This would maybe be believable if I had said at ANY POINT yesterday that Drew was scummy.
I never put any pressure on him at all and I think limming him in that spot over you or Ranger was absurd.
Can you quote anything that involves me "trying to get Drew limmed" to justify what you're saying here?
I'm super weird.In post 730, Vanderscamp wrote: Firstly, I think your progression on me this game on me was super weird.
Yup. I posted that, went to bed, and as soon as I got into bed I started thinking "but that's exactly what scum here are going to want to look like, ugh that was premature to say."You apparently deep dived my entire iso and called me pretty solid overall.
Yeah that was also actually a bit of why I thought AV wouldn't be teamed with you two, forgot to mention that- he wouldn't have brought that idea up in that case. I can't even remember for sure now, but maybe it was reading that that started me thinking along those lines, though I'mAfter that, you make post #622, which is essentially you starting to sheep a read by Vox of all people that Ranger and I could be distancing.
It's A. I was just answering Vox's question- looks like it confused me and I tried to think of explanations under the assumption that what he was saying was true. The scum lied about what happened and confused me. And I'm only just now realizing this, because I don't specifically remember writing that response but I do remember checking Ranger's ISO later expecting to see a Vander vote somewhere that got moved and being confused when it was just an Aisa vote.In post 731, Vanderscamp wrote: I'd like to address the bold part.
During that entire day, Ranger had Aisa as their top town, with me as secondary town, and never voted me at any point despite having the opportunity to hammer me to heaven, and instantly voted the Aisa wagon when it came about, despite voting with one of their scum reads Vox (IIRC), despite using Vox's "bad company" as a reason to not vote my wagon.
If you had had a look at this at all, you would have realized that Ranger "getting nervous that you would sway things to Aisa's side" is absolute nonsense based on Ranger's actions that day, it would have been trivially easy to see that that's not what happened EVEN IF we're scum partners together, so you making this statement and then putting us in a likely team together doesn't make sense unless you either
A) never bothered to check this
B) were lying about this being a relevant factor in your read on us two being scum together
In post 732, Vanderscamp wrote: Re: hard townsiding, yes, if your solve was Vanderscamp/Ranger/Arko, what would you call it?
If the three of us are scum, and my scum partner gives a town read on my other partner, and I spend probably more time than anyone else has spent going after any other player this game just relentlessly shitting on my scum partner for their terrible townread on my OTHER scum partner, what would you call that?
You're so over the top. Bussing isn't playing against your wincon, especially in this setup.In post 733, Vanderscamp wrote: Also, as I already said a while back, I don't think it's ludicrous to think that I could be bussing Ranger this game.
It's not actually within my scum range, but it's possible if you don't know me very well to think that I could be some kind of extremely playing-against-my-wincon maniac scum busser, and it's not ridiculous to think that it's at least an option.
What I do find ridiculous is for you to just casually mention that as a team.
If you thought Ranger and I were scum together, it's in spite of our interactions together, not because of them.
Right?
Are you disputing that, or do you think that someone relentlessly trying to lim someone is above random to be scum vs scum as a general rule?
I admit, the Arko as the third part didn't feel exactly right, but after ruling out AV that seemed the best fit. He was always on my scum radar, much moreso than Bella or even Oc.You never gave any real reasoning why you thought that that was particularly likely, and especially not for it to be WITH Arko, based on the nature of my push on Ranger, especially since you recently ISOed me.
You literally couldn't bus in that game. I already said that. Stop equating bussing with playing against wincon. What you did do in that game was get very highly townread as scum, so I know it should likely be in your capability here.I'm not trying to say that this is the same game as death note, but that was your experience of seeing me play as scum, and it certainly wasn't an example of me bussing / playing against my wincon.
Like, let's take the Arko/Ox interaction.
If we all saw this obviously not scum/scum interaction and I started saying stuff like "yeah I think Arko/Ox/Aureal makes a lot of sense, I can see Ox and Arko just raging at each other at the start of the game," and I didn't have any real reasoning about why I thought that combo of scum was especially likely other than just trying to discredit the reasons why it wasn't unlikely, I would expect to (rightly) take heat for that stance unless I could bring up some kind of relevant past player-specific history on why that kind of scum/scum interaction would be likely from either player.
In post 776, Vanderscamp wrote: But, if what you're saying is true, that "I left you with the only option being to vote Drew out instead," then why did you accuse Drew and me of open wolfing?
If I'm forcing your hand in that way, then surely you would have known that we weren't scum together, right?...
In post 783, Bellaphant wrote: ^ feels more like town enchant than any other post@ aureal