Micro 66 - Robo's F11 (Game Over)

[Mitillos]

And here we go.

Vote: Tazaro

, for being a capitalist pig-dog.

[Mitillos]

In communism, the state will provide your food. In capitalism, the invisible hand of the market will.

NO SHAME!

Undecided? You could have just not voted...

Unvote

Vote: PMyst

[Mitillos]

And if you hadn't pointed it out, the mafia might have made a slip there, Taz. I don't think they would have, but you never know.

[Mitillos]

@Commie: I'll take any advantage I can.

[Mitillos]

1. Nickname you'd like to go by?
2. Gender?
3. Times you'll likely be able to post? Or not post.
4. Thoughts on meta?
5. Thoughts on reaction fishing?
6. How do you feel about walls? Do you make them?
7. Are you scum?

Eh, might as well.
1. You can call me Mit. No, not Mitt. Other nicknames can be accepted after being submitted and reviewed by a select committee and countersigned by the relevant appointed authority.
2. Male.
3. I am generally quite active. Unless I have nothing new to add, or am otherwise occupied. Expect several posts per day, excluding emergencies.
4. Meta can be useful but misleading. I haven't been here long, so I've only played with Klick and Cheery (sort of, his hydra), before, so I probably won't be able to use meta that much.
5. Again, can be useful but misleading. Against seasoned players it's unlikely to work too well.
6. Walls are terrible, we should all be free! Seriously though, brevity is important. If you have too much to say every time you post, you haven't been posting regularly enough, so stop lurking, lurky. I try not to make walls, but sometimes it is inevitable, when a lot of things happen in a short amount of time.
7. No.

[Mitillos]

Age: Older than both Tracey and Mala.

[Mitillos]

@Tracey: Is asking RQS a predominantly scummy thing? Is it something you habitually do as scum? Or as town?
And no, I'm not sheeping you yet. I like my vote on the person who, instead of not voting, or voting for no lynch, or voting arbitrarily for someone, felt they had to point out and reinforce their indecision by voting undecided. A vote on Riggs can wait until he does something scummier.

[Mitillos]

@Tracey: Actually, I'm inexperienced. And although I wouldn't ask RQS, I don't mind answering them.
Also, Cheery said that he was on his phone. I understood his post to mean that a) he's active, but unable to do much until he's on a proper computer and b) he'd be getting on one soon. He could start some proper activity then. PMyst, on the other hand decided to go with a pointless move, of "voting undecided". Note that he didn't simply say "I don't know whom to vote", or something similar. He used the vote format, showing that he really wanted to press home his indecision. Compare also to Newbie 1275, where as town he started with an actual vote instead.
Also, note that I voted for PMyst before Cheery said anything. Even if I'm wrong and Cheery's action is as scummy as PMyst's, there is no advantage on switching my vote between equally scummy players, unless one is closer to a lynch.
And yeah, Riggs' answer to question 7 is a bit iffy, because he's basically saying "I'm not scum, but I might be lying, can you figure out which it is?", but town can also do that. And like I said, he can be voted for, when he does something even scummier, it's not like a wagon has to form immediately.

[Mitillos]

So, Cheery, I take it you're on a computer now. How about some votes or reads?

[Mitillos]

Also, anyone who knows Jigglypuff before this game should hold off on how they think of him for now.

I don't know him, but I'm curious as to why you would say this.

[Mitillos]

Things happening, yay:

@Mala: No, that is not what I said. Indecisiveness itself is alright. What is scummy is coming and effectively saying "Look at me folks, I'm so indecisive, that I will make a big point of not voting anyone.".

@Klick, Mala and Cheery: This is a game of cooperation. Withholding information is scummy. Start talking.

@Tracey: Oh great, I was about to switch my vote to Cheery and you switched away. And I'm not scared of a wagon forming immediately, I just don't think that's necessary. We can have it form later too and it will be just as good. Only scum would absolutely want a wagon forming early, to make sure the conversation goes somewhere safe for them. Town would want to discuss as much as possible. Also, why is Cheery town now? His actions haven't changed because of post 64.

Anyway, I think the Commie wagon is a good one, but I'd like some answers from or about PMyst, before I consider switching to him.

[Mitillos]

Let me qualify. A wagon forming early is fine, in and of itself. But if it's formed spuriously, it's not. Aggressiveness is not scummy, manipulating the direction it takes, is. You seem to be happy with the existence of a wagon as long as it's on your scummiest read, so, no, I don't think you're scum.

And I already said why I'm not switching to Commie yet. I want more clarifications on the PMyst thing. Which he can do himself, when he posts next. If that satisfies me, I'll move my vote appropriately.

[Mitillos]

@Tracey: You are jumping wagons too freely. I think scum would be a bit less aggressive. I expect you to go through most players. If you ignore someone too obviously, then it will be manipulation.

@Commie: I take your point about the importance of pressure and so on. And it should be obvious whom I want a wagon on first. I'm voting for PMyst, so that's my first choice. And how am I eager to sheep Tracey? I have yet to move to either of the wagons she has spearheaded, whereas you followed her quite readily on Cheery's. I'd like the PMyst thing cleared, before I move to the next suspect, currently you.

Also: @Taz: Waiting on that promised serious vote.

[Mitillos]

Yeah, sorry, was answering Commie too, so I kind of missed that.
I was willing to vote Cheery after post 47 and later ones. Same reasoning as yours. By the time I saw that post though, the wagon had already crumbled. Is that what you are asking?

[Mitillos]

Now I see what you mean.

Here's the explanation. Cheery's origianl actions had been as scummy as PMyst's. I had said back then that if Cheery did something scummier, I'd switch to him. That wagon crumbled before I had a chance to do so. Also, Klick said what he said about not using PMyst's meta. I need a reason for that, but this (from my PoV) came after the Cheery wagon had crumbled. I think that Commie's actions were less scummy than those of Pmyst, Cheery and Klick. If I get a good explanation on the meta thing, I can start over with Commie. Clearer?

And @Mala: I didn't wait for a wagon to form to vote for someone. I voted for PMyst all alone. I'd have switched to the Cheery wagon, because the two had been equally scummy in my views and the Cheery wagon looked like it would yield more results (e.g. some sort of reaction). I am voting for someone, I have a case against him, I am waiting for people to tell me why I should throw my case out. If they cannot, they should also vote for PMyst. So, what exactly is it you want me to do that's different from what I am doing?

[Mitillos]

@Taz: Any comments on Tracey saying that cheery is town? After all, what she said in post 70 about him correcting Klick seems like a good point.

[Mitillos]

@Mala: Correct me if I'm wrong but what you are saying looks like:
1) PMyst is easy to read.
2) People who are inexperienced scum don't know this, nor would they be able to use his meta against him.
3) I used PMyst's meta against him.
4) I didn't accept that "We should not be talking about PMyst's meta" at face value and wanted actual reasons.
5) Therefore I'm scummy.

Either I'm not getting it right, or there's derpy logic at 4 and 5. Either way, this goes by the assumption that PMyst himself isn't scum. So, yeah, I'm not sure where you're coming from.

[Mitillos]

But the trap is meaningless. I gave reasoning for a read I had. Klick claimed that I should drop it, without giving any explanation. You supported him in this. Why, exactly, would you expect me to be satisfied with that and go "Oh, all right, sure, let's forget about this"? That would be a scummy thing to do anyway, as it would be trying to blend in and appease. If someone else pressed you for an explanation, I might accept it. But since I was the one who attacked PMyst, your "trap" is flawed.

Anyway, I'd rather hear something from PMyst himself. It's almost like you're trying to protect him from the rest of us.

[Mitillos]

I took your statement that we should hold off on what we think of PMyst to be that. I also took Mala's support on the subject to also be that. If I misunderstood, I apologise. Nevertheless, saying that we shouldn't mention PM's meta just struck a bad chord with me in general.

[Mitillos]

Also @Myst: Could you explain why you voted undecided, as opposed to the other options, like voting somebody randomly, not voting, or voting no lynch?

[Mitillos]

@Mod: Pretty sure you're missing a vote there. Mala's voting me, I think.

[Mitillos]

Argh, freaking wall. Here we go.

@Tracey: My PoV implies the sequence of events based on my timing. I left. Things happened. I returned. The part where I would have voted for Cheery and the part where I no longer would happened within that timespan. No, I think that Cheery and Myst were tied, followed by Commie, then Klick. But Cheery did new things and fell back. PMyst is still at the top, since he's not responding, so I'm still voting him. And no, I specifically said that Myst was to talk, before I'd switch to anyone else. That's quite a few misreps in one go...
Re 104: How am I squirming? I want PMyst to respond. He's lurking and everyone seems content to let it slide. Stop enabling potential scum.
Re 109: And town don't? You're suggesting that I'm scum because I know what scum would do? That is silly. And Mala seemed to be saying that we shouldn't be voting for PMyst or pressuring him. That's trying to protect him from some scumhunting from the entire town, not just me.
Re 117: Because I'm still waiting for PMyst's response. As I said, several times.
Re: Pressure: Your case does not hold water. Look over it again, please. And no more misreps, please.

[Mitillos]

@Tracey: The reason for the apparent contradictions is that reads change over time. For example, Klick's behaviour (saying that we should hold off on reads on Myst, then scumhunting, then voting Mala and so on) kept pushing him up and down on the scumminess scale. As for not bothering about Rigg's absence, I didn't notice it. I will admit to being guilty of tunnel vision there. But don't forget that PMyst isn't simply absent. He is also absent after coming in and talking but not answering questions that had been asked before he talked. So, it's not the absence alone. the absence compounded the issue. As for the "sticking to my guns" bit, assuming I moved, you could then have said that I" crumbled under pressure and must be scum". So, equally, I could say that "sticking to my guns" is indication that I am not scum, as I didn't react badly to pressure. So, that's an invalid argument and I think it's a nulltell, in any case. [Teacherhat]Beware of affirming the consequent. It is a very common fallacy.[/Teacherhat]
For 69 and 71, in 70 you said that withholding information isn't scummy. I accepted your view and said, fine, he can answer for himself, without Klick, Mala or Cheery needing to answer. Then I got a weak answer from Mala, which did very little to explain what the point of the thing was. That did not convince me to let go of PMyst. I didn't expect anyone else to come out with more relevant info, so I decided to wait for PMyst himself to answer, after that.
And I never said that I would categorically switch off PMyst if someone answered. I said I would do it, if the reasons satisfied me. Why would you expect me to stop attacking PMyst, if good reasons are not offered?
About Mala, it seemed to me that she was trying to stop votes on PMyst. There were plenty of opportunities for me to stop attacking PMyst. If we were the scumteam, I'd have taken one of them. Maybe not at the beginning but at some point. I could have made some silly comments about Commie's reaction to the wagon on him being weak or something and moved onto that. I did not. The reason is that I am not scum and I believe that PMyst may well be.
As for the "town don't say they are town" thing, I haven't said "I'm town". I have implied it several times. I often do this, because part of how I present my arguments and my reasoning is to refer to town behaviour. And because I'm the only one whose alignment I know in this game, I can either refer to what I do as examples, or to meta. If you think this is scummy, that's fine, but don't expect me to agree.
And PMyst may not have posted anything anywhere, but he has been on the site. His most recent visit (as of this moment) was approximately one day after his last post to this game.
Anyway, no one else seems interested in putting some real pressure on PMyst, which is really disappointing.

[Mitillos]

Well, now he'll see there's two votes on him. Maybe he'll actually respond.

[Mitillos]

I do nothing to you. You do it all to yourself, subconsciously. Also, what's "pinginess"?

[Mitillos]

Well, either way, I can't respond to something as insubstantial as "gut". @Tazaro: If you think I am scummy, by all means keep your vote on me, but do look for actual reads, based on reason, instead of feeling.
@Anyone and everyone: What do you think of Klick's insistence on not mentioning PMyst's meta, his vote on Mala and his subsequent unvote? What do you think of Mala's claim about PMyst's meta being too easy for scum to attack? Is either of those scummy? Both? Neither? I'd ask for thoughts on Riggs' lack of content too, but he said he won't be back until today, so that's another stalled place.

[Mitillos]

As I said, PMyst has been on the site, without talking. Either he can't talk, for whatever reason, or he chooses not to. If it's the former, there's not much we can do, unless either he becomes able to talk and does so, or he is replaced once a prod hits and so on. So, in that case, it is irrelevant (in terms of his reaction) if you vote or not. If it's the latter, i.e. he chooses not to talk, then more votes will mean more pressure, making him more likely to talk.

[Mitillos]

@Mala: I've never played with PMyst before, but because I stalk several games at a time, I've seen him before. I believe it was in Newbie 1275.

[Mitillos]

Doubtful. Policy lynches are probably not good ideas. What exactly were you thinking of?

[Mitillos]

I'd rather we get answers than risk a mislynch, without even getting information.

[Mitillos]

@PMyst: And you're still not responding.

[Mitillos]

@Tracey: I took Mala's 104 to mean what I said in 152. If you look at 106, I asked Mala if my understanding was correct.

@Mala: I'd imagine that scum would be more careful about saying something so inherently bad. (This refers to Tazaro's question about PLs).

[Mitillos]

Whoa, that's quite a long time... Any chance of getting more info about that vote on Tracey today?

[Mitillos]

@Klick: You seem to be saying that because you can't find evidence of Tracey being town, she's scum. Either that's sloppy reasoning, or I'm missing something.

[Mitillos]

Well, I'm not sure about post 36 either (it would seem to me that someone who loves reaction fishing will see it everywhere), but I'll concede that 42 can be bad.

[Mitillos]

It is very capable of working. But someone who hasn't said something townish would be null, instead of scum. Ideally one should both scumhunt and townhunt. Anyway, Klick's response was fine, you don't need to jump to his rescue .

[Mitillos]

Oh dear. It's going to be another bloody endless wall, isn't it?

[Mitillos]

Now you're just threatening us... (It'd be teasing instead of threatening, if it wasn't most likely going to be a 10-paragraph wall ).

[Mitillos]

@Tracey: What sort of reaction were you expecting? That I'd unvote him and vote you instead, or something? I'd like him to answer questions and start posting, before I consider moving off, as I said several times, so that's not happening, at the moment. Also, why is PMyst null-town? If anything, he should be null, from all the lack of posting, or null-scum from ignoring the questions directed at him. Unless you have reason to believe that his lurking and ignoring questions is a clear sign of townishness.

[Mitillos]

Gah, fine. But if he keeps prod dodging and not contributing absolutely anything, I'll expect you to lead his lynch. After all, as you just said, you know he does this as scum.

Unvote

Vote: GNR

The main reason is his 183. It seems like he's trying to push a specific example of his play with PM, for us to use as meta.

[Mitillos]

@Tracey: If you've seen a specific type of play by a player as being scummy, I'd expect you to take it as scummy when it's being used again. saying that "it could be town because you don't know what PMyst is like as town" seems somehow strange, to me. Additionally, PMyst as town seems to be bigger on things like RVS, from what I've read in his meta. He will happily put his random vote on someone. Perhaps as town, he does not worry about creating associative tells early on, whereas as scum, he does. I don't want to lynch him yet, because he's lurking and I think it is a terrible idea to lynch someone without giving them a chance to participate. I don't like lurkers, not because they are scum, but because if they are scum, the town can't catch them easily, due to lack of content. I want people talking first, not being lynched; that can come later. So no, I won't push for PM's lynch, yet. But if he continues to not participate, whilst not being replaced, I will certainly do so. If you don't think that you should do the same, then I'll chalk it down to a difference in idiosyncrasies.
As for Riggs, it is not about his lurkiness. As I said, it's mainly post 183. He is trying to guide us to a specific example of his meta. Lurker or not, this is scummy. Particularly with that addendum about "using that how we wish". The thing about this is that what it seems like he wants is for us to deduce that he's not scum with PMyst. If a number of people believe that PMyst is scum, this will imply that he's not PMyst's scumbuddy and therefore is not scum himself. There seems to be no reason for town to give us a specific game where he had been scum with PMyst, except as an attempt to colour our perceptions. Furthermore, he is only V/LA until Tuesday, so hopefully he won't be a lurker for long, anyway.
No, I haven't played as scum. My games are linked on my Wiki page. 3 completed, 1 ongoing with me dead, 4 ongoing with me alive. If you need more info about them, I will be happy to provide it, as long as it's not about the ongoing ones.

[Mitillos]

@Tracey: You're right, I did misunderstand. Anyway, I read a few of his newbie games. The one I mentioned before was 1275. There was also an ongoing one which I won't talk about and a couple of other completed newbie games, but I don't remember the numbers. I will look them up again later and let you know. As for no-lynches, I'm in favour of them, if they give town an advantage. If we can't get a good consensus and we're in MYLO, I'd say they're good. Otherwise, we're debilitating ourselves, by taking away our only means of eliminating mafia. About Riggs, I'm implying they are probably not scumbuddies now; they were in the game he linked, as he said. Linking that game could well be an attempt to make us see that they're not scumbuddies again. By extension, he could be trying to colour our perceptions of him, using one specific game, calling attention to that one in particular. And yes, your points are valid, but his reaction to someone saying he could be scumpartners with PM was still scummy in my mind.

@Violet: What countries are the exceptions? Also, I'd like to read your thoughts on Mala and PMyst. Cheery too, but he can wait for later. Also, since he was your slot, what are your thoughts on Riggs?

Klick: Are you claiming scumbuddies with Tracey?

[Mitillos]

Well, that's depressing.

Also, I meant to ask Violet what her thoughts were on Taz. And Riggs, obviously, but that's lesser, since he hasn't said much.

[Mitillos]

Well, that's depressing.

What is?

The robotic speak thing. And what's the laughter about?

[Mitillos]

Yes, the Taz/Riggs thing was me being derpy. And the reason I said that Cheery's reads can wait is because I've got a weak town read on him, so I'm less interested in him, as it were. I'd still like to hear your thoughts on him as well, though.

[Mitillos]

No, no, I'm not offended. Don't worry about it. You can explain it more clearly when you want. Even in the post-game if it's not that easy.

And @Violet: If you're a guy, sorry for the incorrect gender qualifiers. I took your name to be generically feminine; my apologies for this rather sexist lapse.

Also, where's that other post? It had better not be another wall, we already have Tracey filling the place with masonry.

p-edit: Oh there it is, never mind.

[Mitillos]

I think you messed up the beginning of your sentence again Cheery. Care = Share?

[Mitillos]

[Mitillos]

^Seconded. I'd rather have 9 players talking, as opposed to the current situation.

[Mitillos]

Well, I can't force PMyst to respond to questions, or Riggs and Commie to start talking, so I can't really be part of the solution.

As for your reads, I'm not sure I agree with Tracey/Klick team, but you are probably right on at least one of them. Not sure which one, yet.

[Mitillos]

@Tracey: I don't have something significant to add, usually because in the time between me being here there's a new couple of walls, 4 responses, 9 counter-responses and so on. There's very little for me to add, without just sounding like I'm repeating what other people have already said. As for Violet being right about one of you, I think that one of you and Klick is scum. I'm not sure which, yet. I might be wrong and I'm prepared to re-evaluate at any moment, but right now, I think that one of you two is mafia. If I had to guess, it'd probably be Klick, but I don't think it's both of you. And I'd like to hear more from the less active people; I don't trust lurkers, they must have something to hide. To that end:

@Mod: Can we get a prod on Riggs? Has anyone responded for replacing Commie?

[Mitillos]

@Violet: The thing is, I don't have much to say about you and Tracey. You guys are taking care of all that, yourselves. And I would like more people to participate, so I can have a more complete picture of everyone, before making up my mind. This goes back to my roboticness. Also, I really don't trust lurkers.

In all seriousness though, I'm far more suspicious of the lurkers than the active people. Whilst there's still lurking going on, the people talking are more townish than the ones not here. So, as far as I'm concerned, the scummiest behaviour is displayed by PMyst and Riggs, at the moment. Klick is starting to slip into that as well.

[Mitillos]

Yes, but so is PMyst who continues to dodge prods and questions.

[Mitillos]

Welcome, Thor and Nacho, you scummy pair of scummers you.

@Both of you: Is Tracey's insistence that PMyst shouldn't be lynched scummier or less scummy than PMyst's lack of anything of value to the thread? Also, I'd like each of you to tell me what you think of the things said by those you replaced. What do you agree or disagree with, from their ISO's? (They're fairly short, you shouldn't need too long to read them).

[Mitillos]

you better prove you got something exciting from it or I will hate you (more than I already do).

You hate me? What did I do to you?

And yes, I did get something exciting from it, but it will have to wait, until Nacho answers the question to, or refuses to do so. And yeah, this should have happened long ago:

Unvote

Vote: Pmyst

Someone who's playing exactly like their scum meta and unlike their town meta, deserves rope. I don't even know how Tracey and Mala convinced me to change my mind.

[Mitillos]

@Thor: Call me Mit, for ease. And I'd rather have you at least skim through what's happened before, than just go from what happens from now on. Even if you dismiss it afterwards.

@Tracey: When I was the one who originally wanted people to vote PMyst, in hopes of getting him to actually say something, I don't think you can call my jump on his wagon scummy. Especially with his more recent posts. PMyst's play has been scummy throughout. Both in terms of direct scumminess, as well as his meta. And, if you believe that we will get no reads from his flip, you are wrong. Interaction goes two ways. It's not only what PMyst says, it's also who says things about him and what those things are. Think of it as the difference between outgoing and incoming interaction.

[Mitillos]

@Mod: How about a Riggs prod?

[Mitillos]

@Mod: Thank you. Most gracious of you.

[Mitillos]

I thought I did see some massive Tracey walls in the Ladies' Night game. Not perhaps as many, but far, far longer ones.

@Thor: How could I have scumhunted, when half the players were barely posting, or not posting at all? The most I could have done was get in a wall fight with Tracey, or something and that's not my cup of tea.

@Tracey: So, here I am. Are you going to ask me to unvote PMyst again? Because, unless there is a good reason (as opposed to "I don't know his town meta"), that's not happening, when he's acting so scummily. If you want to have a look at his town meta, look at his games. He says he likes the RVS stage, he votes quite happily, instead of being cagey, he participates. If he is changing, then what is happening is that he is now always following his scum meta, even as town. But this lack of participation is terrible from town. So, I doubt that this is what is going on.

@Mala: No I'm here, but the invitation was issued when I was responding to another game.

[Mitillos]

@Thor: No, I'm not. I agree that I wasn't. You and Nacho replaced in, activity started. Scum #1: PMyst. Scum #2, after he flips, possibly Tracey, could be Mala. We'll see, depending on who votes for him and when.

[Mitillos]

So, how about lending me your vote, seeing as PMyst is being scummy and meta-scummy? Same goes for everyone else, who isn't Nacho, since he's already got the right idea.

[Mitillos]

@Tracey: Ask questions of whom? PMyst? I did. Commie? V/LA and then replaced. Riggs? V/LA, then disappeared. Taz? He was here then got replaced. You, Mala, Klick, Cheery? You were all already somewhat active. So what exactly did you want me to do? Engage in a wall-fight with you or ask questions which I knew wouldn't be answered, because half the players weren't here?

And I thought I made it clear what PMyst has done that is scummy. He did not participate in RVS - metascummy, as he has said (as town) that it is his favourite part of the game and does it quite happily as town. He either hasn't been reading the thread, or has and is feigning ignorance, but keeps dodging prods, trying to stay under the radar - scummy, because he's trying to keep a low profile, meta-scummy because he does this as scum. He hasn't responded to anything that was either addressed to or said about him - scummy, because he's hiding from it and letting it blow over.

@Mala: He has been prodded once so far. He keeps posting just at the right time to avoid prods, posting nothing. He is keeping himself from being replaced, quite well. As for CD, I thought his explanation for why he thought Tracey was scum seemed reasonable, if not necessarily correct.

[Mitillos]

@PMyst has not addressed this. In fact, he's avoided addressing all this repeatedly, by prod-dodging with content-less posts.

And although I can't link the first bit (I just noticed it's an ongoing game ), here are some links of him actually doing RVS as town:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 2#p4246072
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 7#p4269927
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 6#p4220696
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 5#p4249245

p-edit: @Mala: Hmm, maybe you're right. I'll have a look at Cheery's ISO later. Now I must be off for a few hours.

pp-edit: @Tracey: You had your own thing going on. I didn't want to butt in with my robotic style . But now that there's more activity, more PM votes, please.

[Mitillos]

That was supposed to read: @Thor: PMyst etc.

[Mitillos]

Back briefly for this:

@Mala: You didn't really poke a hole in my theory. In the game you linked, PMyst was still quite active. In this one, he's not. That game supports my theory, that PMyst is scum, though for a different reason. So, yeah, maybe he does sometimes avoid RVS as town, I'll concede that. But when he's offering nothing to the game, you have to admit it doesn't really match his town meta.

@Tracey: I have mentioned this before, but I am not an experienced mafia player. I've only finished 3 games, so far, and I didn't really do that well in any of them. What this means is that:
1) I'm not that confident in my scumhunting ability. I have trouble finding the right questions to ask and so on.
2) When a bunch of experienced players are having a wall-bout, I don't feel like there's much that I can offer to the proceedings. By the time I think of some question to ask or some point to make, someone else has already made it and I'll just sound like a broken record.

Also, I generally think that when two people are having huge arguments that go on and on, in the same vein all the time, they are usually town vs. town arguments. If I think that you and Vio are somewhat townish, for having a prolonged argument, what would be the point of looking for scum there?

Why am I making you uneasy? I'm such a nice, inoffensive guy. And I spell your name right . Seriously though, if your vote is about the way I express myself, you're waffling pointlessly.

And now I must meet my advisor.

[Mitillos]

@Thor: Yeah, read the first part of post 423, just above the links. The ongoing game thing refers to exactly what you're asking for, so I can't really discuss or link that. Sorry. Mea culpa.

@Tracey: You're ignoring the rest of it. You guys are more likely to catch each other out with your questions and comments anyway. And, to be honest, I'm not going to read 20 walls, to see if I can find one thing to ask AND check if no one's asked it before. If you want me to interact with you, don't use walls (you know, like now). And I've been using the noob card from the beginning. That happens when you're a noob. Why would that have any bearing on my alignment? In short, are you grasping at straws here, trying to get people off yourself and on me instead?

[Mitillos]

I didn't notice that Vio used that wording before, as I've been skimming the walls. Which goes back to my point that if I find something worth commenting on, someone's probably commented on it already. I'm not somehow magically more capable of spotting things that whoever you're wall-wrestling with.

Anyway, wanting people to get off PMyst is scummy in itself, when there are so many good reasons to believe he is scum and none to believe he is not, so I guess you're right, people in wall-arguments aren't necessarily always town. Well done for proving your point so flawlessly.

Unvote

Vote: Tracey

[Mitillos]

Also, about the games "under my belt":
In the first I was killed N1. Didn't do much.
In the second I replaced in and spent pretty much the entire game fighting with Majiffy. Didn't do much.
In the third, I almost cost town a victory, by not thinking things through, carefully. Didn't do much good.

So, yeah, I think I still count as a newbie, for now.

[Mitillos]

I'm not discrediting myself, I'm giving you the facts. Also, you're scum for knowing that PMyst's current play matches hi scum meta (from your own experience, as you said), that it doesn't match his town meta (from what others have said) and still trying to get votes off him. So it's not that you don't see what I see, it's that you refuse to see it, when it's plainly there.
And I didn't announce L-1, because I forgot about Cheery's vote and thought I was putting you at L-2. Looking back now, I see it. Sorry about that. So, yeah, L-1, no hammering without stating intent, asking for a claim, and all that.
Though it would be ironic if PMyst came in and quickhammered you, accidentally or on purpose.

[Mitillos]

@Mala: Was either of you scum at the time? Or both?

@Cheery: Good point. Although, I'm guessing Riggs might be replaced as well. And PMyst hasn't actually given content, but he may surprise us yet.

[Mitillos]

@Tracey: So now I'm robotic, I'm making you uneasy, I'm righteous town AND depressing? Wow, I wish I had that sort of effect on girls all the time.
Seriously though, I accept that I might be wrong about PMyst. But it just seems like he's trying so much to stay away from talking, particularly since he still logs on regularly (most recently, 4 hours ago or so), it just seems too much. And he even made the fatuous claim that he forgot about MS, when he's been logging on and just not participating. It just seems too scummy. And it didn't help much when 4 people suddenly jumped to his defense. I thought I was missing something obvious.
Not sure about the Violet thing though. He posted today saying he needs to catch up, which makes sense.

@Mala: Well, if he did that again today and Tracey was scum, I'd be glad he did. Not overjoyed, since we'd be missing out on more discussion, but hey, one scum down is always good.

[Mitillos]

@Violet: But Riggs has been prodded and could be replaced, so you never know. And I can't speak for Tracey, but what I'd like to hear is your thoughts on everything that's happened since the replacements. Any reads on Thor and Nacho? Did your previous reads change at all?

[Mitillos]

Of course they went unanswered. They went unnoticed. That's what walls do to questions; they hide them. Anyway, obviously I changed my mind about Klick and now I think that you are the one who is scum. As to why one of you would probably be scum, it's because you were buddying him and he was distancing you. Both of these are rather scummy things to do. I don't think it would be both of you, mostly due to gut. Which means that I still think that the other scum is a lurker, probably PMyst or Riggs. Which should also answer your last question to me.

[Mitillos]

@Thor: Yeah, he's still scum, Tracey's attempt at defending him hasn't changed that.

Unvote

Vote:PMyst

[Mitillos]

By never walling.

[Mitillos]

@Tracey: Chuckling is good. And, fair enough, maybe he's siteflaked. The only reason though, for the forum to record him as having logged on today, is if he visited the site today. But even if we don't get into the technical part of PMyst's disappearance, his actual posts have been few, far between and scummy. I predict that before he is due for prod or replacement, he will come again, post something small and unhelpful and disappear again. He has done this several times already. This is NOT town-motivated. It is scummy, through and through.

[Mitillos]

@Tracey: Stop misrepping please. I did have other thoughts. I posted them with my vote switch. I didn't vote PMyst because Thor told me to, I did so because PMyst is still scum. And Thor reminded me that I wasn't voting for him any more.

[Mitillos]

@Tracey: I didn't notice a misrep from Thor. He said that he requested from me to move to PMyst. This is true, he did ask me to get back on PMyst. I didn't do it because Thor requested it (I have a large beard too, so that's alright). I did it because I agree that PMyst is scum. And he's scummier than you, because although you protecting PMyst can be a scummy thing to do, you might be town who just really really wants to believe the best of PMyst (this is noble, but misguided). Whereas PMyst's scumminess is clear as day.

p-edit: @PMyst: Can't wait. Well, obviously I can; I've been waiting for 16 days already.

[Mitillos]

Aww, but I wanted to have a secret admirer/stalker.

Seriously though, if PMyst's promised post doesn't satisfy me, my vote is staying on him until someone outright claims scum, or something.

[Mitillos]

Re Tunnel: So you're saying that him coming in and promising a post soon is town behaviour? Because that's what prompted me to say what I did in post 500. He, once again, came in, said nothing and left. It's not tunneling, if they're acting scummy.

Re Thor reminding me to vote for PMyst: I was using colourful language. It's not that I actually forgot where my vote was, it's more that during that time I was also dealing with other things and wasn't being optimal with my vote. But now I am, once again.

[Mitillos]

My stance on Tracey hasn't changed at all, and my scumread on Klick has redoubled.

I'm thinking someone misunderstood something someone said. Possibly me.

[Mitillos]

@Tracey: If you also read the wiki entry you linked, you might see how I am not tunneling. My arguments against PMyst are valid, in and of themselves, and not because I have held them for a long time or strongly. I am potentially capable of changing my mind about him, but it's up to him to convince me to do so, by actually making that post he promised yesterday and making some valid points in it, for example. See, the difference between what I am doing and confirmation bias, is that PMyst's behaviour has not been townish yet, at any point in time. I am not ignoring some of his behaviour in favour of my pet theory; his behaviour has been the same this whole time. Again, if the target's behaviour is consistently scummy, it's not tunneling; it's common sense.
Anyway, my claim is not an excuse. I think he is the scummiest player in the game. I am voting for him, because I think he is scum. This is the best reason to have your vote on someone. Also, no, I'm not an alt. I wouldn't be a newbie, if I were, I imagine.
And me voting you was not optimal, because I am more certain of PMyst's scumminess, than yours. As I said, yours could be attributed to being protective of your town-read (inexplicable as it may be) and therefore not necessarily scummy after all.
You also mention the flow of the wagons. Let's see how I've voted so far:
Random on Tazaro. Then first serious vote on PMyst. Stayed on PMyst until you finally convinced me that I should give him more time to come back. During this time the only one voting PMyst was you, for a brief period as a "reaction test". Then I voted for Riggs. I was all alone on him until the replacements. I went back to PMyst, my original read. You can call this the first wagon I followed, but that is silly. Then I moved onto you, when there was a wagon on you, but this was because you continued to inexplicably protect PMyst. Then I moved back to PMyst, who, again, was my first and biggest scumread. So, stop trying to throw insinuations around with "just something to note", as if you're not trying to imply that the only reason for my votes was who else was voting whom. You're still misrepping and you need to stop.

[Mitillos]

9x8/2 = 36. You overcounted.

[Mitillos]

Except that that way you count the team (A, B) and the team (B, A). This is a very fundamental concept in combinatorics: whenever you want to find the number of possible subsets of size k, of a set of size n, where the ordering in the subsets is irrelevant, you take the combination function (also known as "choose"), C(n, k) = n! / [(n - k)! k!], where ! denotes the factorial function.
In the case where k = 2, this comes to n * (n - 1) / 2

p-edit: Ninja'd by Thor.

[Mitillos]

@Thor: He seems to be voting Tracey, actually.

[Mitillos]

@Tracey: I unvote PMyst and it's scummy. I vote for him and it's scummy. I'd say that you're the one with the tunnel-vision here. The point is, a better alternative has not presented itself yet. PMyst was, and is, the scummiest player this game. And you are misrepresenting me, because you assign specific motivations to my votes, which are completely different to my actual motivations, the ones I gave when making my vote switches. And when you say things like "You dropped your vote on PM in favor of Riggs three posts after I switched my vote to Mala." you're committing another fallacy (in this case, post hoc ergo propter hoc). If I only cared about being in wagons, why did I stay on PMyst that long, on my own, before switching to Riggs? Because I was voting him on my own, for a very long time. Your selective reading cannot explain this, because it ignores this. Not to mention that you claimed to be in favour of wagons from the beginning of the game. Why is someone on a wagon scummy now? And a read can stay for 22 pages. It can stay for the entire game. And it will do so, when it is a scum read, on a player who is acting scummily

in precisely the same manner, throughout these 22 pages

. If PMyst were to actually participate, I would have a reason to say "maybe he is town after all". He has not, so I do not.

tl;dr: PMyst is still scum and you're still using fallacious arguments against me.

[Mitillos]

@CD: Is PMyst a town, null or scum read to you? If town or null, why? If scum, care to restore the L-1 pressure that Nacho removed, so that PMyst might see it and maybe react?

[Mitillos]

@Thor: Because he said that he's waiting for something to happen and then he will explain things. I'd like to see his explanation.

[Mitillos]

Why didn't you? Anyway, I didn't think I needed to; Mala did so at that time (posts 509, 510). Parroting her is unnecessary, when she made her point cogently. Not to mention I've had Tracey on my back for quite some time now, so I've been concentrating on her.

[Mitillos]

@Thor: You should have, because if you believe I should have made a comment, you should also believe that you should have made one too. Unless, we have different alignments, which you would only know as mafia.
I didn't feel the need to ask, but I also probably wouldn't have done so, even if Mala hadn't, because I was concentrating on Tracey. She was not exactly preventing me, just overwhelming me with her walls.
Also, are you currently voting PMyst because you were sheeping Nacho or because you think he's scum? If it's the former, who is scum and why aren't you voting them? If it's the latter, jolly good.

p-edit: @Cheery: I did see that you had a town read on PMyst in the beginning. I was wondering if it changed as well as why it was there. Thanks for your answer.

[Mitillos]

@Thor: Well, about the Tracey thing, I'm just being honest. I know it looks bad, but there it is.

My reasoning for PMyst being scum is all over my ISO. Briefly, he's been hiding the entire game, dodging prods and questions, coming in to make posts to keep from being considered inactive, whilst at the same time saying absolutely nothing of value. I also compared thiswith his activity in a few other games he's been in; he was more active as town and less as scum, as far as I can see.

And the only person with no vote in play is PMyst, whom you're already voting anyway. You've been going on about "lackwits not voting", but in fact, almost everyone has their vote in play. It's just that the wagons haven't been too consolidated.

[Mitillos]

@Violet: Actually, Nacho is voting you and obviously doesn't think PMyst is scum, from his post above.

@Nacho: So what exactly were you waiting for? You've given your reads and everything, but you mentioned waiting for one thing to happen. What was it and where did it happen?

[Mitillos]

@Nacho: PMyst has been on the site (without posting here) in the last hour. In fact, he did post, a little, in some other games. He has been avoiding this game ever since the beginning. He only ever said anything whenever it was almost time for him to be prodded. Now, he's found an ingenious way to avoid even that. He went V/LA. Without bothering to announce it. Until the 18th. The deadline for this game's dayphase.

[Mitillos]

@Cheery: Notice how in the game you linked, he started with more activity and then when he wasn't active, he asked to be replaced. Note how this is not the case this time. The case against PMyst is not simply that he didn't vote during RVS. There's far more to it.

@Nacho: You're right that you won't convince me. I have a fairly solid town read on Violet. Also, I still don't see how you have a town read on PMyst. I agree that Riggs is almost as bad, particularly with his latest post, but I'd like an explanation on that.

@Riggs: What was the point of quoting post 595?

[Mitillos]

EBWOP: Oh, I see, you messed up the tagging or the spacing, or something. Carry on. With some reads, if you please.

[Mitillos]

@Riggs: Actually, I think post 531 was really good. If anything, it pointed out that Violet was counting himself as a possibility in the combinations for possible scumteams. Not a major potential scumslip, because it can be attributed to simply talking about theory, instead of this specific game. Alternatively, CD just threw it out there, specifically for people to see Violet as scumslipping, but now we're entering WIFOM territory, and I don't like alcohol.

In other news, I'm starting to see Riggs the same way Tracey said she saw me earlier. That is, I think he's slightly scummy, but I'm starting to think it may be more just his posting style, than anything else.

[Mitillos]

There's been a hammer. I don't really have much to add. I'm just waiting to see if I was right about PMyst.

[Mitillos]

@Tracey: Because I'm introverted and don't want to see more walls from you in twilight?

@Thor: On the other hand, you voted PMyst, even when you didn't need to, since Nacho had already hammered. If you were a less experienced player, I'd immediately assume over-eagerness to show that you are aligning yourself with the town, particularly if PMyst flips scum. So, even though Nacho's actions seem a bit peculiar, yours do as well.

[Mitillos]

@Thor: Did I say anything about either of you two being scummy? I find Nacho's actions peculiar. I find your actions peculiar. You say that Nacho's actions are scummy. I'm saying they may not be. I don't like it when people try to get others to commit to a future lynch, when we don't have all the information yet that we will have at the time (not just PMyst's alignment, but also the NK and possible investigation results, as the case may be). I don't think you're scum for doing this (as far as I can tell, you do it both as town and as scum), but I do think it would be foolish of the rest of us to blindly follow.

[Mitillos]

Holy shit, this started? I didn't notice it, because I didn't get a PM. Please give me some time to catch up.

[Mitillos]

OK, firstly, @Cheery: No, it doesn't make Thor obv-town. I already gave a counter to his "if PMyst is town, lynch Nacho" thing. If anything, Thor should be put under more scrutiny, because the only player he seems to have any respect for was Nacho.

NK analysis can sometimes be helpful. In this case, I think it might not be, since anyone could have easily been behind the kill, for whatever reason. I agree with Thor though, that the main reason for scum killing someone is that they're so town they won't be lynched. Of course, then they can do the WIFOM thing and let them live so that people will suspect them of being too townie to be alive and so on.

As for me "avoiding the thread", would I pull a PMyst like that, after attacking him so much for avoiding the thread throughout day 1? Don't be silly. I just didn't know we started and I always look for my games thread by thread. I thought this one had not started yet.

However, I am surprised you guys didn't lynch me yet, for leading that mislynch. I'm guessing that the mafia team felt that they could let someone else start a wagon on me first (e.g Mala) and then jump in, or that I might lead another mislynch. Oh well.

Anyway, had PMyst flipped scum, my main suspects now would have been Tracey and Mala. As he didn't, I don't know whom to suspect.
@Thor: Should I sheep you? If so, why? If not, whom should I sheep?
@Tracey: Who are your second and third scummiest reads, excluding me, and why?
@Mala: Even if I was avoiding the thread, how would that have been scummy?
@Violet: weren't you also calling it yesterday, as well? Nothing much seems to have changed in your arguments.

p-edit: @Violet: On the other hand, Nacho

did

suspect you. It's far less likely, I think, that only the mafia team "suspects" one townie, than one of the team giving suspicions on two.

I think I might be cool with a Violet wagon, but I don't want to rush like yesterday and cause another mislynch.

[Mitillos]

@Mala: I set no trap. I expected people to have voted for me already. They didn't. That was that. Also, I might be cool with a Violet wagon, because I think he might be scum. I don't know whether or not he will be a mislynch, or even a lynch, because I don't know his alignment. Which is why I don't want to rush into voting him. Perhaps it would have been clearer if I said "potentially cause another mislynch".
If you want it more clearly: My read on Violet right now is null leaning scum.

@Cheery: Well, I asked him (and others) a couple of questions. I am waiting for his answers.

p-edits start here.

@Thor: It happened to be right above another thread I'm playing. Also, I meant should I be voting Violet? If so, why? What is your case on him?

@Violet: I didn't ignore it. I just pointed out a counter-point. But the fact remains that, if Tracey and Thor are scumbuddies, they're working together to attack you, with not much support from the town. Wouldn't that be a rather bold move? Wouldn't they be more likely to have one person push and another hold back until the wagon got some steam? Because right now they'd needlessly be putting themselves in too weak a position, particularly if you were lynched and flipped town.

[Mitillos]

@Mala: For protecting him too much. But since he was town, it's moot.

@Violet: You know Tracey. From your knowledge of her, is this how she generally behaves? Would she be jumping between accusing you and me yesterday if she is scum?

@Thor: No, you shouldn't. (Unless you're scum. Then you should totally vote me.) But I could see how I might have been an easy mislynch target today. I'm not entirely sure what you're asking there with the PMyst wagon. Could you clarify? And I don't think I will sheep you at this time, but at least now I'm more convinced you are town.

@Violet: If Thor is town, is Tracey still scum? If Tracey is town, is Thor still scum? Why or why not? If neither is scum, who is your next biggest scumread?

@GNR: Now that you're back and more active, who is scum?

[Mitillos]

@Thor: The PMyst wagon wasn't scummy, but it was on a PR. People don't always decide who is scum by their actions, but by the results from them. In this case, the result of the wagon was that we lost our doctor. I would have expected both scum and town to attack me for the PMyst wagon, not because of its motivation, but because of its result.

@Mala: Not towards the end, but early on. Or at least I was under the impression you did. Maybe I was mistaken, but it makes little difference now.

[Mitillos]

I didn't say the result was scummy. I said the result would be an excuse for others to attack me. And town wouldn't necessarily attack me immediately, but there had been quite a few posts between the day starting and me actually getting here. In any case, I wasn't attacked, which is good, since it means the town cares more about motivations than other things. But you can't deny that this isn't the case with all players and that some players would, in fact, have attacked me, given PMyst's flip.
Think of it like Nacho's statement that he'd expect one of you and himself to be killed overnight (which was accurate). My expectation was not accurate, which is a good thing in this case, but it was a possibility.

[Mitillos]

No thanks, I'm good. You say Violet is scum. If he is, who is his most likely scumpartner and why?

[Mitillos]

@Tracey: Way to misrepresent, yet again. What makes it necessary for Thor to be scrutinised is that Nacho died and is the only player Thor seems to respect. If Thor were scum, he'd go for Nacho first. My read on Violet changed because of the various posts between the two you list. Which should be fairly obvious. Riggs is still leaning scum, because of his lurkiness. And I already said why I was not sheeping the wagon. An additional reason is that I think you might be scum, trying to get a second mislynch and put us in LyLo.

I have town reads on Thor, Mala and Cheery. I think that the mafia team is in Tracey, Violet, Riggs. In both cases, reads are in descending order of strength. The latest bout with Thor, about being on the wagon and so on doesn't sit right with me.

@Thor: Is Tracey town, null or scum? Why?

@Cheery: How is Thor clearing himself? He sort of voted for PMyst, after the hammer, so he is on the wagon too, in a sense.

@Mala: You seem to be saying that I am scum. If so, why, and who is my partner? If not, who is scum and why aren't you voting them, instead?

[Mitillos]

@Tracey: You misrepresented what I said about Thor. See the answer for the explanation. And if Thor had been scum, he'd be more worried about Nacho than the rest of us. Nacho's reads could change; just because he thought Thor was town doesn't mean he wouldn't at some point read him as scum instead. As for Violet, he keeps repeating the same things, which don't seem to constitute a good enough case, to my mind, at least. For Riggs, just because it's potentially just posting style doesn't make it non-scummy. He has posted, but his posts haven't been too helpful, I think. The reason I'm not sheeping came much earlier. Look further back in my ISO. The bout with Thor didn't sit right with me, in terms of Violet's alignment; not Thor's.
Voting can wait. It's not like I can only place my vote at specific time intervals. Ignoring the other questions, because they seem silly or unclear.

p-edit: Yeah, definitely not voting now. It can wait.

[Mitillos]

@Cheery: Except I did ask him questions and I think he's town, from his answers. How is that not scrutinising?

[Mitillos]

@Cheery: If you didn't like my questions towards Thor, that's fine. But I did not ask them under the assumption that he is town. I asked them to see what he would say and how he would say it. As for the Nacho thing, I believe Thor-scum would go for the most experienced player first. No silly things about who suspects whom, no trying to find PRs from nothingness, no relying on his twilight case. If I am wrong, Thor, could you correct me?
As for your last question, I'm not sure I understand it. Or alternatively, you didn't understand what I said. One of the two. Could you clarify? Use names.

[Mitillos]

Welcome new mod.
Alright, I think it's time I do this:

Vote: Violet

That is L-1.

[Mitillos]

@Cheery: I was trying to see what Thor really thinks of his vote. I guess we have an answer now. The bout with Thor thing seemed like a weak defense of a somewhat unnecessary action.

Now we're in this situation: Either Thor is scum who doesn't want to be associated with the Violet wagon, for whatever reason, or he's town who doesn't want a quicklynch on his town-read by the scumteam. I don't think scum-Thor would do the first one. So I'm inclined to believe that Thor does not actually have a scum read on Violet. If so,
@Thor: Who are your actual scum reads? Playing along with a wagon to see what you catch is all well and good, but at this point you should tell us what you really think and who is scum.

As for my reason for voting, I think Violet is scum. His defense from the Tracey attack didn't convince me, his reasoning for a Tracey/Thor team seems weak. What I was waiting to happen was for my patience to run out, with nothing else happening. It finally did, so I placed my vote.

[Mitillos]

@Tracey: Of course it was loaded. Needing more scrutiny is not the same as being scummy. In addition, Thor having less respect for other players is not the issue, in and of itself; the point was that Nacho died. The lack of context is a misrepresentation. And yeah, Thor is powerful, but eliminating the strongest players is just the most logical thing to do. And if Thor were scum, I imagine he'd want to eliminate Nacho, first and foremost. Violet is scummy because from how you talk about him, I think he'd be able to make more varied and better arguments. Additionally, ignoring your questions (as you pointed out) and attacking the wagon on him are also evidence of scumminess.
As for voting, I was waiting to see if anything would happen. Then I lost my patience and voted. Lo and behold, something happened. I also didn't want to sheep too early because of the result yesterday. I misled the town and we lost the doc. I won't take full responsibility for that, but it was partly my fault. And it's the first time I made such a big mistake. Also, it wasn't just 10 posts later. It was also 17 hours later. Not to mention I'd been holding off on my vote for quite some time, by that point.

As for your other questions, fine, I will look at them. What do you mean by "Uh?"? How about an actual question, there? Mala is prob-town and you are prob-scum, because her actions are less scummy than yours. This should be crystal clear. Thor is my strongest town read despite the bout, because the bout only made me read Violet as more scummy; not Thor. This should also be very clear.

[Mitillos]

So, Thor. Why is Riggs scum? From my reads it's obvious that I don't disagree, but why do you think he's more scummy than Violet? Or is Violet not scum at all in your eyes, any more?
Also, I'd say Cheery is obv-town regardless of my alignment.

[Mitillos]

@Riggs: Exactly what Thor said; I was talking about his post 796. Nice to see the quick reactions insinuating a scumslip, though. Particularly the one from you, since you referred to that very post, when asking me about my choice of words.

[Mitillos]

Oh, goody, more wall.

Your question seemed to be making an insinuation. It suggested that I was saying that Thor was scum for not having as much respect for the other players as for Nacho. Which was not what I was saying. I took that to be a scummy thing for you to do. And given the previous misreps you made of me in this game (and there were several of those), you can imagine why I'd snap at you after a while. Think of it as paranoia from you trying to attack a strawman repeatedly. In any case, I think we can move on from that discussion now.

I am paying attention to what Violet says about you. Why would you think I wasn't?

Maybe it's not long to you, but it seemed long to me. Is that a problem?

Me potentially suspecting you if PMyst flipped scum, does not imply you're indemnified from suspicion if he does not. That was a unidirectional conditional, not a bidirectional one. Your scumminess is not contingent upon PMyst's own; it stands proudly on its own. The difference with Mala was not just from the start of the day. I see her as more townish than you. You didn't do the same things. You are not equally scummy. And since PMyst didn't flip scum, that condition wasn't met, so it's not necessarily the case that you or Mala would be scum. But it's also not the case that neither of you is. Basically, what I'm getting at is, you're scummy. Most of the town doesn't seem to agree, so I'm willing to take their vote of confidence in you as indication that I might be wrong about you, but I still suspect you. Also, stop walling.

@Thor: Do you really consider Klick a weak player? But yeah, the Riggs case is good.

[Mitillos]

Seriously? Just ISO me and search for "misrep". You'll find them all. And why would I make a case against you, when I'm not actually voting you? For now, I'm content with a Violet wagon, or a Riggs one. When you're scummier than Violet, I'll let you know.
You didn't do anything significant in those 45 posts. I just went back and ISO'd people.

So, why are you placing me in L-1 without announcing it? After making such a big deal of this in 444, that's a bit hypocritical. Also, care to back that vote with an actual case?

[Mitillos]

@Cheery: I took Tracey's question to be insinuating that I was making a specific invalid attack that I wasn't making. You didn't ask me that question. Plus, you didn't make prior misreps.

@Riggs: Read what I said about post 444. There is context that you are either choosing to ignore, or just failing to see. I think it's the former, right now.
And since the Violet wagon completely crumbled,

Unvote

Vote: Riggs

Lurking, then being active only to make pointless attacks like that one, or when you are voted for is a big no-no. Even if you are overworked, you could make a bigger contribution once in a while, if you really wanted.

@Tracey: You say you countered them, but I don't agree. At least not with most of your counters. Also, why did you forget the lynch requirement? The post with that was right there and you definitely read it; you made that comment about it being early. You could just have easily said that you forgot that I had two votes on me already. I'd be more inclined to believe you if you said that you just weren't paying much attention to the vote count.

I'm also cool with a Tracey lynch as I said before.

[Mitillos]

@Mala: Not really. Or rather, I don't really feel like going back through your ISO's to get the various reasons. Let's call it gut and leave it at that, for simplicity. and I don't think I bothered explaining them before, so no post number.
Why would I not be cool with lynches on my scumreads? That's kind of the point of lynching. Also, why the quote marks?

[Mitillos]

I did give an explanation for that one. His case against Tracey and Thor seemed forced and faked to me.

[Mitillos]

Except I named my scumreads before that.
And who else is suspecting Tracey, other than Violet? Because I don't see any votes on her.
Anyway, if you want more about my reads, I'm accepting from Violet and Tracey that they know each other well, so at least one of them is making a good case. In addition to my own suspicions of them, one should be scum. I named Riggs as possible scum yesterday as well. Everyone else has been townish. I'm only looking for 2 scum, not 5 or whatever.

[Mitillos]

@Cheery: You could be right about Tracey and Violet both being town, but I think Tracey and Violet said they did play mafia together before. Or at least, that was the impression I got. If they do have experience with each other's style of play and behaviour, I'd expect at least one of them to be right about the other. But in any case, that's not the only reason for suspecting them. Their behaviour was individually scummy as well.

[Mitillos]

@Mala: Automatically? No. Likely? Yes. And no, they could both be scum, or they might not. And the last question is in essence the same as the first one. Which I already answered.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to get at, here. Either you think I am scum, or you think I am town. If the latter, how about unvoting me and telling me who you think is actually scum, if it's not one of my scumreads and why? You're a town read of mine, so I'd like to know your suspicions. (The same goes for Cheery). If it's the former, then your questions would be pointless and you should be trying to convince others to vote for me instead. Yet, you do neither of those things, choosing instead to ask me questions to which the answers are obvious. Of course there are no assertions. This is about probabilities. I think it very likely that the scumteam is in {Violet, Tracey, Riggs}. I could be wrong, just as I was wrong about PMyst.

@Violet: Why have you gone quiet, now that the wagon on you disappeared? If you're town, this is the perfect time for you to participate, since you're no longer under pressure. How about some reads, other than your scumreads on Tracey and Thor?

[Mitillos]

@Mod: V/LA over the weekend

[Mitillos]

@Riggs: Did I say Tracey was scum for forgetting to say I was at L-1? You're trying to shift attention from more important things (your scumminess) to less important ones (me calling Tracey an accidental hypocrite).

[Mitillos]

Well, I'm still here, but I don't have anything to add right now.
@Cheery: If Riggs is scum, who is his partner? If he's not, who is scum?

[Mitillos]

You consider me more townie than GNR, yet unvote him to vote me? You also don't like Violet's play and then leave it at that?
How the fuck is that pro-town?

Does your hammer policy include yourself?

[Mitillos]

@Cheery: Are you asking if I mind? Yes, I do mind. We've had one mislynch already; a second one will put us in LyLo. If you must, I'll at least tell you now that I'm a Townie (as in, not a PR).

@Thor: I would suggest you vote your biggest scumread. From your own words, that can't possibly be me. If first isn't good for whatever reason, second one instead. You named me as third, so that means you're skipping your first and second biggest scumreads to vote me. And no, I don't want you anywhere near L-1. I still think you're town and if you get to L-1, I consider it likely that scum will hammer. Sure, one of them will out themselves that way, but they get to eliminate a strong player.

[Mitillos]

@Thor: Hrmph. I hope you know what you're doing.

p-edit: I'd much rather we get scum. We only get one more mislynch. And right now I'm basically for the chop because of you (Cheery) and Tracey. At least one of you is likely to hammer me.

[Mitillos]

EBWOP: Never mind, Tracey is already voting me.

[Mitillos]

@Cheery: To convince you that I am town? If you want to change your mind, just ISO me. In any case, why would I have killed Nacho? What would my motivation, as scum, be? ISO him, as well.

[Mitillos]

@Cheery: It's exactly as Thor said. If I were scum, my choice would have been Thor, instead of Nacho. Beyond that, I can't offer you anything else.

@Mod: I think there's some mistake in the VC's somewhere. Specifically, somewhere between 877 and 907.

[Mitillos]

Why Thor? Because Nacho was calling me town. Not just calling me town. Remember what he said to Tracey (if I remember correctly) about needing to unblock my vote from PMyst. That means he was pretty convinced I was town. If I were scum, I'd absolutely want him around, supporting me. The relative experience of Thor and Nacho is irrelevant; they are both more experienced than the rest of us, as far as I can tell. Basically, I'd kill pretty much anyone over Nacho, at that point, if I were mafia.
Also, sorry for being boring.

[Mitillos]

@Cheery: But if it was because of "my partner" being heavily suspected, then he'd have to be Riggs. Look at where my vote is. Also, I think mafia would be less interested in keeping their partner by day, than consolidating their own position. And if it's WIFOM, then anyone could be scum, so you might as well throw that out the window.

@Mala: If Nacho thought I was scum, he wouldn't care about me looking elsewhere. He'd want me lynched instead. Town wants town to work together, because that's the way town can lynch scum. Nacho wanted me to stop concentrating on PMyst and look elsewhere, so he believed I was town. As scum, I wouldn't want him gone.

@Riggs: We are approaching the deadline...

[Mitillos]

Didn't I already claim? Townie.

Go Thor.

[Mitillos]

Yup, post 901.

[Mitillos]

Thor is scum, because he is still alive, whilst Nacho died very very quickly. Discuss.
I have no idea who the second scum is.

[Mitillos]

@Thor: Do you disagree that it is unlikely for you to not be killed ASAP as town, given your reputation?

[Mitillos]

@Thor: I recall at least a couple of LyLos you've had recently, by virtue of replacing in right at the LyLo. Are you counting those as well?

Also, Violet is town, Mala is null, now.

[Mitillos]

I was, but now I am not. Is that a problem? Would you like us to have a quick lynch in LyLo?

[Mitillos]

@Mala: Eh, you already said you thought I was scum, but now you want explanations from me. It seems to me that you're far less sure about my alignment than you claim, despite everything you said. If so, what are your strong reads, if any?

[Mitillos]

You didn't say it. But asking me why I'm not for someone's lynch indicates that you think I should be. And if you're sure I'm scum then:
1) Why aren't you voting me?
2) What's the point of asking me questions?
Scum is for hanging, not chatting.

[Mitillos]

@Thor: Fair enough.

[Mitillos]

Because I don't feel like it, yet. In my defense, I was going to look over a few of your games and see if there were such LyLos. Eventually.

[Mitillos]

I'm lazy temporally, not based on alignment.

[Mitillos]

Should I be using the neutral smiley at you now?
Temporally. Hopefully it's temporarily, as well.

[Mitillos]

I have no idea. You can look at my games if you want, they're all listed in my wiki page.
Incidentally, do you have any games with any of the other players (Tracey, Mala, Violet), where they were scum, you were town and they let you live up to LyLo? Or, if they were larger games, past the first few nights?

[Mitillos]

See, if I were scum, I'd have killed you. The reason being that I'd expect any scum to want to kill you. You have a reputation as a strong player, which means that anyone

would

kill you, so you'd be a good target, since your death could easily be attributed to any scumteam, and keep the confusion going. If you see what I mean. So, the fact that you're still alive means that either:
1) You're scum and so won't die overnight,
2) Scum are thinking that they can fool you through the game, so Cheery's death was more important than yours, or
3) Scum wanted to say that you must be scum, because you didn't die.
But the problem with 3 (and 2), from my PoV anyway, is that once I said it (and note that everyone had spoken at some point before I did, so others had a chance to say it too), Violet attacked me for it and Mala basically ignored it. And Tracey hasn't said anything yet, but there's no helping that. No one tried to even say that it might be worth considering. Here I am, offering the scumteam a perfect victory, and they don't take it.
At the end of the Discworld game, you claimed that you are overrated. And yet, here you are, still alive. How do you account for it? Who has left you alive, why, and why did they kill Cheery and Nacho?

[Mitillos]

I wasn't lazy in the UPick. In my opinion, anyway. And I offered theoretical scenarios of what I'd have done as scum in Newbie 1277 (the posts just before this one, too), Micro 56, Discworld Mafia and Micro 71. In all these games I was town. And in my other games, I was killed or lynched too early to participate in that sort of discussion.

I'd like links to some of your town games where you got to LyLo, without replacing in. Say, 4-6 such games? Preferably recent ones and non-newbie ones.

[Mitillos]

@Thor: I think you are misunderstanding the term "temporally". My laziness is time-based. The other games I've had are over, bar one. As for the limiters, I said "preferably". Anyway, even one game is something. And, do you really care if those limiters matter to me? Shouldn't that be irrelevant to you? Particularly since you still found a game, even with them? Also, am I Xil? It would really be simpler in general, if you just called me Mit.

@Mala: I'm sorry to not be thrilling you, but there's no helping that. Do you think I'm scum for not making a case against Thor, based on his play this game?

[Mitillos]

@Thoth: The limiters aren't that important, except the part about replacing in, since it eliminates 1) the possibility of replacing into LyLo and 2) the possibility of scum having previous plans about their course of action, which they didn't change after you replaced in. These are small things, but I think it's better to not have them at all. Newbie would be less preferable than normal (though not a big deal), because you'd most likely be an IC, which changes things, in terms of people deciding to kill you or not. I don't know when your reputation started building, so recent is for that; again, not that important. As for why they should be irrelevant to you, the idea is that the rest of us will use these games to see if there is any reason to suspect that you are scum. If you are town, it shouldn't matter to you what games we pick; if we decide you are scum, you can set us straight afterwards.
I haven't been lazy in any of my other games, I think. This includes my scum game that you mentioned and my town games. I am only in one other game right now, which I am obviously not going to discuss, but you're free to look for it and decide for yourself. I wasn't lazy in my completed games, not because of my alignment, but because I just wasn't feeling lazy at the time. So, I can't provide you with examples of lazy town play in my meta, because I don't think I have any.

[Mitillos]

And yet, I very specifically said why his past games might be important. To reiterate: I would expect town-Thor to be dead already. He is not. So, either he is scum, or he is town and the mafia decided to keep him alive, for whatever reason. On the other hand, they killed Nacho very quickly. So why would they keep Thor alive? I think only Violet voiced any suspicion on Thor yesterday, so if they picked Cheery based simply on townishness, why not Thor instead? They would be at least equally good targets.

[Mitillos]

I've been dreading this moment... I really don't know. I think that if Violet is scum, his partner is probably Tracey. I think that if Thor is scum, his partner is probably Mala.
On the whole, I think that the scumminess sequence is Vio, Tracey, Mala, Thor. Or I can't read people at all and it's the other way around.

@Tracey: Why did you popcorn to Mala? You listed me as your top scum-read and her as third. Also, why did you start with Thor, whom you have as your top town-read?

[Mitillos]

@Tracey: Read what I said. And then, answer my questions.

[Mitillos]

Since when are you dumb? Anyway, I used the same ordering as everyone else. Scum to town. Now answer my questions. And whilst you're at it, let's hear the reason you wanted everyone to give out their reads.

[Mitillos]

What game has she won?

[Mitillos]

It came and went. It might return. Does it really matter?

Why is a Thor/Vio team impossible? Why is a Mala/Vio team impossible? They can be unlikely, but impossible is a bit much. And I'd imagine that LyLo is the perfect time for scum to do some solid bussing. Town needs to lynch successfully twice. A good bus can make a difference; if town manages to get scum on their first lynch, they may not get his partner the following day.

[Mitillos]

Why risk lynching your buddy when you could win it today?

In case the town actually lynches one of you today and you need to consolidate your position for tomorrow.

Why no comment on my condemning Thor?

I haven't got anything to say about that. If I did, I would have said it.

[Mitillos]

@Thor: So, you're agreeing with Tracey that X/Y is impossible if X listed Y as their top scumread? Because, I'd say that that's the first place where the logic started leaving for warmer, more hospitable waters.

[Mitillos]

But you'd have them as your top scum read? Not your second-most? Or what of a town read? That's pretty unexpected, I'm sure.

So are you scum with Vio? You have each other as your second scummiest read. Or are you scum with Thor? You have each other as your top townie read. Or are you scum with Mala? You have each other as town reads.

@Thor: So, you're agreeing with Tracey that X/Y is impossible if X listed Y as their top scumread? Because, I'd say that that's the first place where the logic started leaving for warmer, more hospitable waters.

I would say that's a defensible position at least.

And I'd say that eliminating four teams as "impossible" (three of them containing your top scumread), based on spurious reasoning, is pretty indefensible.

[Mitillos]

"Everyone thinks I am town, and I think that Tracey is town, so Tracey's attack on me is pro-town". Not sure I follow.

She

is

using bad logic. You not attacking her much for it (in fact, slightly defending her) and persisting in your unexplained town-read on her is what is untypical and suspicious. Is it this game? Is it too unstimulating? Or are you just scum? That's my actual angle. Not Tracey's bad logic, but your rather passive acceptance of it.
What's even worse, looking back, when I made an accusation against you, you immediately criticised it and went on the attack. Tracey makes a wall leading to an attack on you and all you do is once say that "her logic flew south" and then defend her for using bad logic. This is atypical. You are more interested in defending your town-read than re-evaluating it. This is not town-motivated.
The problem is, I think you're a much better player than this. So, either you're scum who views every player in this game as incompetent, or town who is being, I don't know, lazy? Uninterested? Something anyway.
Oh and whilst I'm ranting, where's your interaction with Mala? Over a thousand posts and you've addressed each other... 6 times? 7? Do you already know each other's alignment and therefore don't need to deduce it? You give each other as a town-read, with nothing much between you beforehand. I said that if you're scum, your partner is probably Mala, in post 1013, but you chose to ignore that (see post 1014).

Responses?

[Mitillos]

1. OK, so she might not do it as scum. But why would she do it as town?
2. OK. I guess I can accept that. Grudgingly.
3. Are you confusing Violet and Mala? You called Violet scum and he ducked you, but I don't recall you attacking Mala, or her ducking.

As for thoughts, I think I need to stop playing mafia. I suck too much at this... And I have no idea who is scum. You can safely disregard all my reads so far.

[Mitillos]

1. Unlikely is not impossible, but alright.

2. Hurm, indeed.

3. Yes, you did repeat questions to her. I think they were rarely answered, if at all. Evidence of dodgy behaviour, you calling her scum several times, yet you never even voted her. You jumped votes all over the place, avoiding only her, Nacho and Cheery.

Hurm, indeed.

[Mitillos]

1. I already attacked you. If she convinces me I was right, by presenting additional "evidence", maybe I'll vote you and then she can also quickvote you with her partner (either Violet or Mala) and win. This helps her scum wincon immensely, by fulfilling it.

3. Actually, two of those three were the night-kills but that doesn't really matter. But why didn't you do anything about her dodging? Why didn't you press her about it?

[Mitillos]

1. Everything else I said today, apparently.

3. Yeah, probably. Also making a case, instead of just saying she's also in your scumlist, telling people to vote her, actually voting her. Actually voting her, yeah, that'd be a good one.

[Mitillos]

@Mala: Let's see. One short interaction at 105-114, plus part of a solitary post (162), where he voted and quickly unvoted you, over the PMyst thing, another one where you voted him around posts 186-195 (in both cases, pretty much no one else was voting either of you, except Cheery's solitary vote on Mala) and then a couple of jabs, asking him to make a case on Tracey and read Violet. And then he replaced.

You were still voting for Klick, when Thor came in. You had him as a scumread. The scummiest, if we take your vote at face value. So, looking at the whole picture is even more baffling than the rest. So go on, explain where Klick's scumminess evaporated, after Thor took over his slot. Why did you not question him about anything much? How did he drop to a town read? Why did you dodge his questions repeatedly?

[Mitillos]

Oh, look, stuff.

@Thor: I'm for lynching pretty much anyone at this point. Mala seems like a very good candidate (see below). Also, I didn't shoot myself in the foot. If you knew who was going to die, showing how good your reads are, by never voting or calling suspicion on the people who will be killed, is a good idea. But yeah, it's a very weak case, which makes it strange that Tracey would push it too.

@Mala: When did anyone say they're lynching Thor? Only Vio had him as a scum read. It seems to me you were really hoping that these attacks on him from me and Tracey would lead to some sort of mislynch. And you berate him for answering questions directed at you

and then you do not answer them yourself until several posts later

? And even when you do answer them, you actually don't. You can see which of his questions you dodged, by making an ISO on him and searching for "Mala". You'll miss a few, but most will be there. And I didn't say you're paired with him because you dodge him. I said you're scummy for dodging. Also, if a slot has a scum PM, it has a scum PM. Just because a player is good at appearing pro-town, this doesn't change their alignment. And yeah, you "gave Thor time to redeem himself", but you were content to let him do that alone, instead of interacting with him and trying to see what you can find. This is not town-motivated.

@Tracey: I'm saying that your suggestion that scum wouldn't put their partner as a top scum-read is absurd. I'm also showing you that, even if you take that as a limiter, you don't get to eliminate too many teams, so it's all kind of pointless, anyway. And, in the end, it comes down to WIFOM, because scum will do what they think will give them victory, not what they think is safe.

[Mitillos]

Oh, yes, I'm very OK with it, which is why I attacked her for it.
Keep flailing.

[Mitillos]

Why the stagnation?

Still waiting for the promised Tracey post and Mala to answer Thor's question (or is she going to dodge this one, as well?).

[Mitillos]

Nah, it was still justified, since I asked if you were going to dodge, not if you had done. Good to see that you answered, but I have to say that your answer is meh. You're trying to show effort and all those lovely townish scumhunting behaviours, but all you're really doing is saying that I'm scum with Thor, or I'm scum with Tracey, or Thor is scum with Tracey. Violet isn't really showing up much, even though you listed him as your second strongest scumread. Your justifications for each of the possible partnerships are weak.

[Mitillos]

@Tracey: If you look back, I listed Cheery, Nacho and Mala as the players Thor did not vote. Not the ones he had no interaction with.

[Mitillos]

@Tracey: Not right now, no. If I had other comments, I'd make them. Do you have something specific you want to ask me? Or did you expect a wall in response to your own? Because you should already know that's not happening.

[Mitillos]

[Mitillos]

@Tracey: a) is beyond terrible. d) is not precise. The rest are iffy.

@Thor: Bad assumptions all around. Also, why are you getting so annoyed over a smiley? And I'm not sure what to make of 1101. Violet has stated repeatedly that he thinks the scumteam is you and Tracey.

[Mitillos]

I just want to point out that I understood what Thor meant and that it wasn't a scumslip, or anything like that. He's saying that we'll see if he gets quicklynched, which will end the game (given that he's saying he's town), and if he doesn't get quicklynched (which is what he expects, based on his reads), we lynch Violet today. Which is perfectly reasonable, both from the point of view of town and that of mafia, who is pretending to be town successfully.
What Thor is saying, boils down to "If no one quicklynches, one of {Violet, Thor} has to be scum".

[Mitillos]

I was asleep.

[Mitillos]

Good game. Thanks Robo. So, Mala, why did you kill me? Didn't you think it might be better to leave me alive so that 1) you'd be able to keep attacking me and 2) I might go for Violet or Tracey, instead?

[Mitillos]

I would also welcome everyone's comments and criticisms.

p-edit: But I called Tracey and Violet scum before. Didn't you think I might attack whomever of them was left, instead?

[Mitillos]

Oh and just to toot my own horn a bit:

I think that if Thor is scum, his partner is probably Mala.

[@Thor] I said that if you're scum, your partner is probably Mala, in post 1013, but you chose to ignore that (see post 1014).

@Mala: Yeah, I was hoping you'd take the fact I called them scum and gave Vio as my biggest scumread as something you could take advantage of, and keep me alive. Oh, well.

[Mitillos]

Actually, my attack on Thor was no more WIFOM than pretty much any other case. I would expect any halfway competent scumteam to kill him as quickly as possible, because

every

scumteam would kill him as quickly as possible, so his death would give no indication as to who they are.
Also, how about that QT?

[Mitillos]

It's a setup.

[Mitillos]

@Thor: You're sometimes left alive because of it and that's where it becomes WIFOM. But if we go by first principles instead, the conclusion is inescapable. But even if it's not a solid argument on its own, it is an argument that is valid. Plus, I really couldn't see any possibility of you not being scum on Day 3, because of who was left. And since it wasn't my only argument against you...

Still waiting for comments and criticisms, incidentally. Come on you guys, I was the newbie of this game, I need to get better at this.

[Mitillos]

It was the one I expected to carry more punch. It didn't. Live and learn.

p-edit: Time to go back and check what it was.