micro 429: m9++. epilogue.

[BRantz]

VOTE: VysePresident because I was right last time!

[BRantz]

Mykonian you confuse me... I feel like you are trying to pick fights with people, and then when they respond you give them a hug...

[BRantz]

@BRantz - Why no thoughts on the wagon? I'm kinda surprised to see you not weighing in here, especially compared to last game. Holding my vote for now.

@Cyrus/Vyse: So I was waiting for Willow to get back before commenting on the wagon, and now get home from work to find two more pages (which is a hell of a lot faster than anything progressed in the newbie game I just finished, which I like). I wanted to see what Willow had to say about the wagon/speculation around his first post because it influences what people are doing on the wagon. So here are my reads on all of that.

Sordros: I don't find his initial reactions scummy, I like that he is trying to create dialogue, and gain information. But after failing to do that I find it kind of strange how he just sort of completely changes tactics and says he is okay with all of it. It seems very strange, but I don't know that it is scummy. Nullish leaning town for now.

mykonian: He was on the wagon, while actually apparently trying to distract from it by engaging dave about completely irrelevant things, and seems to have no interest in scum hunting at all. Seems fairly scummy so far to me.

Tier: I like Tier for actually trying to push the game, get people talking, and get more information out in the open. That being said, I'm not sure I believe that the whole thing was a reaction test for him. I like the pressure he put on dave, but am uncertain about the immediate unvote afterward. Null for now.

Willow: This play is pretty much in line with how he played as town in the newbie game I was just in with him, so I like that. He can be town for now.

Dave: Also is playing a lot like he did as town in the newbie we were just in, but he didn't bend to people pressuring him in that game like he just did to Tier. Mildly scummy for now.

VOTE: mykonian

Reads on those off the wagon:

Cyrus: I don't like that he spent four posts saying basically the same thing (all about it being a day vs night start), in one of which he threw in a sentence about not finding Sordros scummy. But otherwise avoided interacting with the wagon at all. Null.

FuDuzn: Not really enough info to go off of to make a read on him yet. I like the reasoning in his post voting dave though.

Vyse: Vyse seems town so far, but his play is similar to the newbie game where he was scum, and I was town reading him most of the way there until he defended his scum buddy until she died. Mild town read for now.

@dave: Scum in one of which four?

@vyse: Sorry I was away at work sweetie.

[BRantz]

@Vyse: Agree that it isn't always pro-town, but attempting to get more information into the open is always going to feel more town than scum to me. Creating dialogue is the best way to do that, so it reads as townie to me.

As for the reasoning in FuDuzn's vote post, to me it feels like dave was trying to throw smoke with the omg scum could quicklynch post and FuDuzn is calling him out on that. This is the reasoning I like.

I never claimed cop. My post just had some weird formatting issues.

@Willow: Why lie just for the sake of doing so?

I also don't like dave bringing up a potential quicklynch as a reason people should unvote him. It neither defends himself from any of the allegations against him, nor does it try to interact with any other player in a meaningful way except to try to bully them into removing their vote.

[BRantz]

I'll be blunt here, because it's bugging the shit out of me.

I can't see

ANYTHING

that I've done as the

SLIGHTEST

bit scummy. It is textbook town.

WTF is wrong with all of you?

What do you think textbook town play is? You have done very little except yell at people and promote LaL except that you don't seem to feel that way except in the case of tier, when willow and to a lesser extent myko did the same things. All I am seeing is a player self destructing. I just haven't decided whether you are scum or town doing so yet.

[BRantz]

@Cyrus: How is myko even possibly a town read right now for you? What parts of your case against dave do you feel are original? All I can see is you repeating that he is bowing to pressure, and that you agree with myko about things he has done that are scummy.

@Tier: Why skip me in your reads? Am I that unmemorable?

I like daves more recent posts now that he seems to have calmed down a little bit. I agree with tier that your hypothesis is flawed though. If, as you acknowledge, the hypothesis is wrong, doesn't that make all the analysis around it useless? Wouldn't it just be better to analyze players based on their play and interactions than create "if this then this" boxes to fit people into?

I really want to see some actual content out of Willow, myko, and FuD.

[BRantz]

mykonian: He was on the wagon, while actually apparently trying to distract from it by engaging dave about completely irrelevant things, and seems to have no interest in scum hunting at all. Seems fairly scummy so far to me.

VOTE: mykonian

[BRantz]

Brantz seems to have a murderboner for Myko, which I don't get. Not sure if he has town or scum motivation with this.

I don't think this is a fair assessment. I made the point that myko had made no effort to be involved in scum hunting or discussion which I found scummy, and reiterated it once later when asked about it again.

That being said. I agree that his 156 is very good. I don't like the fact that he feels like he needs to treat us all like we are dumb, but that isn't scum motivated. UNVOTE: .

[BRantz]

Myko do you think Vyse is more likely to be scum than dave?

I don't like that Sordros has kind of just faded into the background now that there is no pressure on him any more. 112 stinks as well (which is his last post).

VOTE: Sordros

[BRantz]

DAVE DO SHIT INSTEAD OF SELF META BULLSHIT

This made me laugh really hard.

Since Cyrus has done nothing to combat the case against him, and Tier wants a sheep. I will do so.

VOTE: Cyrus

[BRantz]

First off, fuck all the lurkers.

Second,
@Dave:
1. Willows response was basically exactly what I thought it would be. So I got confirmation of what I was looking for. Not happy he is lurking now, and even called it out.

2. See 170 for my current thoughts on Sordros.

3. What is the point of you commenting on my myko thoughts? I voted him in that very same post, it feels like you are trying to manipulate what I did but I don't know how or why.

4. Tier's unvote and your unvote were very different, thus the different reactions? I don't know how you could think they were the same?

5. Very unhappy willow is lurking, but there isn't a lot I can do about it right now, I think there are much better choices today.

6. This is what happened. You said I'm not voting until I am sure a bunch of times, then finally said Fine I'll vote. Tier unvoted and said it was a reaction test, and then you basically immediately unvoted. How is that not bowing to pressure? See here is the thing, I never read peoples posts as anything but self serving until I have decided they are town. Clearly your shouting about how town you look and telling people they had better read your posts as complete honesty sets off alarm bells for me. Lucky for you you are only 3rd on my scum list right now.

7. Really unhappy with the Vyse lurk as well.

[BRantz]

@dave:
If you actually don't understand that unvotes look and feel different when they come at different times and in different contexts then I don't know how I can make you understand. Also, you're telling me you unvoted someone you had a scum read on to vote someone who you were angry at?
I can't help but notice you are still voting the person you have a town read on.
I never said myko was more scummy than willow recently. Way to try and put words in my mouth. Myko is no longer in my top 3 scum reads as of 156. Hence why I changed my vote elsewhere.

@vyse: I get that but when 4 of the 9 players in a game are basically lurking I have to say something about it. You got extra attention because I was asked a question about you but I am just as upset with Willow, Sordros, and to a little bit lesser extent Cyrus. I am sorry things are rough for you right now.

[BRantz]

You certainly aren't one to complain about people misreping what you say. At the moment Willow is more scummy than myko but neither are people I want to lynch today.

[BRantz]

Also dave way to ignore the parts of that post that were actually relevant to my read on you.

[BRantz]

Putting the same question again, which is more scummy Willow or Myko.

Do you even read what I write?

[BRantz]

Also dave way to ignore the parts of that post that were actually relevant to my read on you.

I think I'm just going to stop caring about your read. If the literal truth (already stated multiple times) does not convince you then nothing will, and I'm wasting my time.

You keep using this word truth. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[BRantz]

I did answer. Go back and actually read 216

[BRantz]

You are third on the list behind Sordros for the reasons I stated in 170, and Cyrus who I agree with Tier on, and also don't like the disappearing act he has pulled in the last couple pages. At the moment I think cyrus is more likely of the two to get lynched so am voting him.

On the truth thing. I really just wanted to quote the princess bride. But I do think that you basically saying everything I've said is true and you people just aren't listening is scummy.

[BRantz]

Hi Pro. Glad to have you here.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

[BRantz]

Back but exhausted.

BRantz. I posted that I was V/LA. There was no "disappearing act" and as far as I can tell, I've answered every point that has been brought up against me. I don't understand the wagon on me and unless someone gives me something

new

to defend, nothing that I haven't already replied to, I won't. I don't have the time or the energy to continuously repeat myself.

You're right. Sorry I missed your V/LA post.

@Vyse: I am voting Cyrus because I don't like how pretty much the entirety of the early game was speculating about whether it was a day or night start while avoiding commenting on the wagon at all. Then he votes dave for trying to avoid attention, which it seems like he has basically been doing the whole time as well until this point. Then when talking to me about myko I don't like how he calls myko a strong gut townread, but then kind of gives himself an out to throw that away in 151. It feels like he is setting up to be able to jump onto a myko wagon if it happens. He agrees that he hasn't added much to the game (which is the main thing he and Tier argued about). 280 throws a negative light on Tier again, even though he just argued with FuD about something else that did roughly the same thing. Saying Tier is his top townread. But, I'm not sure how his giving up makes me feel.
Cyrus and Sordros were pretty much on the same level, but I have liked Pro's posts since he joined the game so Cyrus is my top read at the moment.

Welcome SB.

[BRantz]

I see that as you saying he unvoted because Tier told him to, which pairs Tier and dave.

[BRantz]

I don't deny that is what happened. I understand what you are saying now, but I'm just saying at first it appeared you were trying to connect them (i.e. "coaching").

[BRantz]

Tier, when and how did I go from probably town to someone you want to lynch?

[BRantz]

@vyse: His posts just feel very similar to the way he posted in the newbie game, that is why I like them.

Myko you were doing so well at using your words... what happened?

[BRantz]

So no case from myko I expected. Vyse voting me without a case is troublesome. At least as far as i've seen his play in the last game and this one. But 2 votes against me with no case presented? Something in that stinks. Leaning Vyse over myko just based on what I know of both of their play styles. Will be on more after I get off work tonight.

OOC: I hope everyone had a great holiday!

[BRantz]

@myko: what don't you like about the sordros vote? Do you think it isn't weird that as soon as people stopped paying attention to him he disappeared (obviously it was more than just lurking, since he had to be replaced but I didn't know that at the time)? Also yes the meta is weak but i've only played one game here and hawk is playing a lot like he did then, and he was town there.

[BRantz]

@Vyse: In fairness people in this game are a lot less willing to engage when I ask them questions. Between that and the periods of stagnation in this game getting people to respond to any pressure has been difficult. Except for the original sordros wagon there has been very little back and forth between anyone and the people they think are scum. Also if you missed it the last two people I have voted both almost immediately got replaced. If I am one of your top sum reads because of your gut at this point in the game that is a problem. There is tons of information out there. Gut shouldn't be your only reason anymore.

@myko: what is wrong with either of those posts the first came on page two when you were attacking Dave about his experience and when he asked why you cared you said because you care about him. Why single Dave out? The second post you have presented without any context. Nor any reasons you find it scummy except that you feel it is weak?

[BRantz]

I decided to change my vote because wagonning a player that was here and responding felt more beneficial that being the lone voter on someone who had disappeared at that point.

[BRantz]

That is manipulation of what happened to suit your theory myko. I unvoted you after you finally decided you would play this game instead of actively hindering the rest of the town by being obtuse. I liked what your logic was, and changed to sordros; this was well after any wagon on him. The whole time I was on sordros I was the only one on sordros. Explain how that is an opportunistic vote?

[BRantz]

You and I don't agree on the context of opportunistic for the game if mafia, buy I get where you are coming from.

The thing is it was very obvious that tier wasn't interested in a sordros lynch, and fairly obvious you weren't, so with both of the main wagon pushers off the lynch, what is the opportunity there? Also call it a weak early game if you must but I can't do anything about the fact that I went to work near the beginning of page 2 and when I got home we were on page 4 or 5 and out of rvs/early game.

[BRantz]

Dave you know what helps get your top scum reads lynched? Voting for them. You wanna talk about being opportunistic, pot meet kettle.

[BRantz]

Assuming I don't get lynched today, I will be rereading the game over the course of the night phase. I've been needing to do that, but haven't really had time. Will have more and better direction tomorrow (game day) assuming I am alive.

pedit: Let me iso Fu real quick and get back to you Vyse.

[BRantz]

There really isn't a lot of substance to Fu at all is there. Using his own words, he seems to have a murderbone for dave, and has spent very little time talking about anything else. Almost half of his posts are promises to catch up (which in this game I think is fairly null but still annoys me). He just jumped way up my scum list.

My top 3 scum reads:
Cyrus/TTH (though this one has gotten a bit weaker with TTH's posts, I am still not convinced this slot isn't scum)
davesaz (I just don't know how his play could come from a town perspective on the whole)
FuDuzn (not much substance, which is why he was null earlier, but there is a lot more to have been talked about at this point)

Tier and myko are both town in my eyes. Everyone else falls in between.

Though as I said, some of this may change with a reread.

[BRantz]

If TTH doesn't happen, I would be open to a Fu lynch, yes.

[BRantz]

I'll give intent to hammer on Fu, claim please.

[BRantz]

Well I am not comfortable lynching a claimed cop unless someone counterclaims them. Even if their claim is a bit weak.

[BRantz]

But, I do agree that trying to call those posts breadcrumbs is awful, and a huge stretch.

[BRantz]

I think, we are at L-1 on TTH again? Agree that we should not no lynch.

Mod could we get another vote count?

[BRantz]

Myko breaks the tie.

QFT. You are just going to have to wait for myko like the rest of us Vyse.

[BRantz]

I am also in the Mountain timezone dave! Probably going to be doing the same thing if it doesn't happen soon.

[BRantz]

Are you counterclaiming SB?

[BRantz]

Good enough for me.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: FuDuzn

[BRantz]

Why is me being uninterested in lynching a claimed pr without a counterclaim on day 1 scummy SB?

[BRantz]

Hey all haven't had a chance to do my reread due to new years stuff, and will be v/LA until Sunday night. But will be caught up on monday. Sorry everyone.

[BRantz]

Starting my reread tonight. More coming in the next few hours.

[BRantz]

Apologies for the wall!

Day 1:

So the first 9ish pages almost completely revolved around Willows fake claim, and Sordros/dave because of it.

I really like Tier's play in these pages. Dave is just as perplexing the second time around (will talk more about this later). Myko starts out awfully, but at 156 he really turns it around (this is when he goes from scum to town for me, posts 168, 238, and 401 were really big in reinforcing this for me). Cyrus backgroud pushes dave during his whole wagon, while letting others do the heavy lifting, and avoids ever really being involved with the sordros wagon except to say he finds sordros town once. Sordros became one of my biggest scum reads at this point because he just completely faded away once there was no attention on him (though he disappeared from the game completely, so not lurking). Vyse does a lot of nothing in these pages (he says a lot of things, but never really does anything. I didn't notice this the first time, but ProHawk points it out in 265. Then in Vyse's next post he votes Pro for it.)

On page 10/11 dave and I argue back and forth and it has been questioned at least once why I never voted him here. I figured out why dave was never my top scum read while I was rereading all of this. The problem I had with dave most of this time was that his posts all felt very anti-town, not scummy, just anti town (in 449 I touch on this a little with the fact that I just can't see his posts coming from a town perspective, but even then didn't realized that I didn't necessarily think they were scum motivated either.) His play was not great in the early game, but rereading it feels as if for the most part he is just very frustrated the whole time, and is lashing out because of it.

In pages 12-16 we get a bunch of replacements, and it seems to reinvigorate the game (with a break around Christmas). ProHawk gives a bunch of reads, and pokes and prods at people that he finds scummy to flesh them out. I really like his play in the game. SB posted somewhat sparingly but with a ton of content when he did, and made some good points (not really a lot of point in talking about it since he was town). I like TTH's first post with reasoning on Fu, but then she does a lot of nothing for most of the rest of the day, which is why I stayed on her toward the end. It was a lot of the same problem I had with her predecesor in Cyrus.

Inexplicably, with two wagons to choose from (TTH and FuDuzn) Tier tries to start a wagon on ProHawk (411) less than two days before deadline. This looks really bad upon reread. The other thing I like about TTH toward the end of the day is her arguing toward Tier here. Not loving the Hawk OMGUS vote on Tier here either. But more importantly when no one else votes Pro, Tier makes post 424 and switches back to TTH with the only reason as "reread TTH's case on Fu", and she even tries to justify it further in post 425.

FuDuzn finally shows back up in the game, but does almost nothing except make a couple of air posts. Interestingly Vyse is the person orchestrating the lynch of Fu the whole time, while after her intial case TTH seems content to let things fall where they will (though admittedly this is because she was certain she would be lynched).

As we approach deadline Fu claims cop. Tier, myself, and Pro all don't like the claim, but none of us are willing to lynch a claimed pr without a counter, which SB does shortly.

Based on day 1 people who are almost certainly town: Vyse, TTH, Myko

[BRantz]

Day 2:

@Tier: Why would it matter if the other seeking mason claimed at this point? Why would you not want a "confirmed" townie in the game at this point?

Possible setups:

MMI (tracker and seeking mason left)
MMJ (1-shot JK and seeking mason left)
MMT (seeking mason left)
In all cases, 1 goon left.

At least 1 living town player knew that the FuDuzn claim had to be false, and one more could have known it was very unlikely without knowing of the existence of seekers.
It will take some time to do my own analysis.

This is wrong. In the MMI, and MMJ set up it would be a Roleblocker left. Intentionally misleading?

I like Vyse's 621 and 623 even though I feel they are misguided. Also like Pro's reads post 634 but again disagree with the myko read.

I don't understand the argument going on between Pro and TTH about TTH not claiming at all.

Oh. Myko is the other seeking mason.

I am curious as to what myko thinks the scum slip from Pro was in his post 674.

Don't like that dave throws suspicion at prohawk, then when questioned on it says he doesn't really have a reason.

@Tier:
697: Prior to my reads post about Fu on page 4 he had made 2 posts 41 which was his "I'm here post", and 61. The only common theme in the two posts is that he doesn't like dave at that point in the game (which develops into a theme later). How much of a read one way or the other could I possibly have? The only thing I liked about him at that point is that he called dave on the bullshit about scum quicklynching, dumb or not it is what it is.

689: See my readdressing of the dave situation in my day one post for why I never had dave as my top scum read. Ditto for my myko scumread.

703: Yes because me calling him one of my top 3 scum candidates is avoiding giving a read. *rolls eyes*

I don't like myko's aversion to reading analysis as our only "confirmed" town player. Even when the analysis is against me and wrong.

Still don't understand myko's scumread on me, but I doubt I am ever going to get a better answer than I've already gotten.

Really hate the dave "sheep" onto me, feels extremely opportunistic.

VOTE: davesaz

If the scum isn't him then it is probably tier.

[BRantz]

I am mostly ignoring Fu because he had almost no interactions during the day. He called some people town, and others null/scum, but he mostly avoided interacting seriously with anyone.

[BRantz]

I think it became quickly obvious that dave was not going to be a serious lynch target, and thus he felt fine parking his vote there.

[BRantz]

Look the fact of the matter is, I doubt I will convince anyone that I am not the lynch today. But I am sure as hell going to try, so that at the very least you have thoughts to go off of tomorrow.

[BRantz]

So then dave, have you since gone back and double checked why you felt that way? Yeah. I agree you said I don't remember why and don't have time to look over and over, but really that is the same as saying I don't really have a reason unless you back it up at some point isn't it?

[BRantz]

As for BRantz, well, Tier already hit most of the points that have me looking sideways at him but I'll elaborate anyway. If I rewind my reads back to when they actually made sense, I was actually toying with a FuDuzn/BRantz combo, because of the way BRantz gave a silly Town read for FuDuzn, and the way FuDuzn avoided giving a read on BRantz. His last read on FuDuzn also feels off. (During the period when we were nearing the lynch.) There was significantly more to the FuDuzn read than him not contributing.

I'm not actually bothered by the points TTH brought up regarding the lynch - I don't want to dive too deep into meta when half of you won't even know what I'm talking about, but I think it's worth noting that I feel BRantz is the kind of player who likes all his bases covered and double checked.

However, by extension, that leads me back into the problem I mentioned earlier, during my brief lapse into insanity. BRantz seemed too complacent for his playstyle, making reads I wouldn't have expected from him, and pretty easily at that. That goes against what I'd have expected from him, and it feels scummy.

So first off Vyse. I never townread Fu. I was null on him most of the game until asked to look at him again (this is when I realized he had all of, at the time, 17ish posts). I liked a single thing he had done. Also notice, that it was all dave all the time, right up until we approached day end. Then suddenly it became me because he was "confused". Then he votes Tier out of desperation to try and get a different wagon than his to be the lynch. He completely stops talking about dave toward the end of the day. Which also set off alarm bells to me.

My Fu case was more than that he didn't do anything. The dave tunneling was a big part of it as well. The fact that he actively avoided having meaningful interaction with literally everyone was a problem too.

I don't even know the point of you bringing up insanity "scum" reads.

Sure, I'll claim. I am a Vanilla Townie.

[BRantz]

Blech... this whole thing was awful. I feel like Fu ruined us. GG

[BRantz]

Also, just a quick note. There was no plan around what happened at the end of day one. It got to a point where I figured I needed all the bussing cred I could get, and then when Fu claimed Cop it was fairly easy, I should have moved sooner, but since I wasn't the only one waffling on it I figured that wouldn't condemn me. Great game everyone. I had a good time even though it feels like I never really had a shot.