Micro 488: Forest Fire - Endgame

[sangres]

as in, over the last 24-48 hours zmuffin's questions to us and posts about us give me some vague town glimmers. The thing that especially hit home was his comment about piggy-backing. Maybe this is something that's been obvious to other players, and maybe some of the doubt about us springs from the way my read formed - in catch-up mode trying to adapt to a gamestate where nacho was scumreading zmuffin and I didn't understand why.

But, it's zmuffin that actually articulated it and pinpointed what has felt strange to me about my own stance - I've been presented with a fact - Nacho scumreads zmuffin, and rather than form my own read I've been trying to reconstruct and confirm Nacho's read.

So, to me his comment was extremely perceptive and I want to call that kind of perceptivity town, because it's not shallow. But...zmuffin is terrifyingly good at scum and maybe I'm letting my guard down too easily.

Interesting. The openness here actually makes me feel a little better about you since it doesn't really look like placating and I am not sure you would have backed off rather than continuing the push.

That said, I probably would have noticed the same sort of thing if I were scum, so it's also not a particularly town thing for me to notice I think. I feel there are probably things in this game that I might not have said or thought as scum, but this is not one of them, so meh. If this is all it took for me to make you start doubting a scum read, then I don't really know what to say.

It's the sort of observation that I think can be used with devastating affect on a town player, at least a town player like me. It could have turned a strength - that despite Nacho's push being hard to grasp or explain, I was plugging along doing my thing with the exception of how I was approaching you and mostly picking up town reads - into a possibly fatal weakness. You didn't set up to do that, or start an all-out attack on that basis. And Nati wasn't really supporting your read of us, which is also pretty key to my interpretation of that post.

Regarding S&S vs this game, I'm going to read the game again today. Started it while writing this post because there was something in that game I wanted to quote if I can find it but I've given up for now. I reread it a few months ago when playing a game with f-16, and most of my observations about Pie from that read-through had to do with interactions between her and f-16. Both the game and the later readthrough were in timeframes where my mind was on a lot of stuff besides mafia, so a fresh read can't hurt.

[sangres]

Soft-spoken, now what?

[sangres]

it appears that all the questions, comments and exclamations for Sangres atm are addressed to or are about Nacho. I'll go back to rereading S&S.

PSA: I consumed 60 mg of prednisone today, and will be taking the stuff for the next two weeks. prednisone does strange things to my mood and personality. I won't apologize in advance, because sometimes I'm more amusing than annoying when I have to take this hellspawn medication.

[sangres]

oh and i would very much appreciate some power-posting from ffery ATM because the more nacho posts the less sure i am about sangres town

My "what now?" question got an answer!

There are a ton of questions for my slot atm, but they're very specifically not questions for me.

Unlike Nacho, I feel like there's an inevitability to Yuriko getting lynched today. I'd want for other stuff to happen first, and I think most players aren't willing to end the day yet, even if they're voting Yuriko, but once inevitability locks in and becomes momentum, the gamestate is different. I can't count the number of times I've supported the lynch of a relatively unknown and new-ish looking player whose posts look scummy and they flipped town, so I can grok Nacho pushing for people to keep looking today in ways they might not until day 2 if we settle on Yuriko as early as it looked like we would.

[sangres]

@ Molla

- Want your current read on Pie/Us/Muffin with explanations behind them in detail plz.

Townish/No Idea/Scummish

Hey, bbMolla. I know there are a lot of walls in this game and it might be hypocritical of me to say this, but just because he asked for detail, doesn't mean you had to write so much - you could have been a little more concise.

Sorry I just wanted to prevent people from actually reading my posts so I made it as long as possible.

This was cute and all, but plz put in some reasoning for your reads now.

[sangres]

My "what now?" question got an answer!

There are a ton of questions for my slot atm, but they're very specifically not questions for me.

Unlike Nacho, I feel like there's an inevitability to Yuriko getting lynched today. I'd want for other stuff to happen first, and I think most players aren't willing to end the day yet, even if they're voting Yuriko, but once inevitability locks in and becomes momentum, the gamestate is different. I can't count the number of times I've supported the lynch of a relatively unknown and new-ish looking player whose posts look scummy and they flipped town, so I can grok Nacho pushing for people to keep looking today in ways they might not until day 2 if we settle on Yuriko as early as it looked like we would.

Do you have a harder scumread on any other player? I'm kind of hitting my end of D1 slump which is, in this case, stacking with several off-site distractions right now, but I don't know who else I'd really want to be running up right now with any remote amount of surety; most of the people in this game have been sitting on their own wagons for the majority of the day which is stymying potential interactions.

If you've got a different direction you want to go, I don't know that you've made that really clear enough right now (I am reading Nacho as the one who has moved your last two votes -- let me know if that's wrong but I don't think it is, and that's got its own set of issues [namely the lack of any real explanation other than he wants a flip that isn't Yuriko])

-b

I don't know about harder scumread, but the other player I feel least town about is Quil. It could be that from a meta perspective that I don't have, he's a shining beacon of town by now. Without meta, there's a lot I don't like about his play, most if not all of which has been brought up by other players.

Nacho moving our vote to Quil is the first of our votes that I feel quite good about.

[sangres]

Without meta, there's a lot I don't like about his play, most if not all of which has been brought up by other players.

Can you be more specific? I'd strongly prefer your explicit stance on the slot even if it's just agreeing with things other people say.

-b

The first thing that bothered me was that I feel he was slow to get serious about the game. I thought this could be because he knows the player list really well and was enjoying the early game and wasn't in a hurry to get to the serious lynching and killing. But, as the game has progressed, it's come out here and there that most players don't know him well as a player and don't have a ton of experiential meta with him. Nor he with them.

I liked that someone reacted to Soft-spoken's early posts because I hoped the way Ss engaged with it would give me some data for reading him. Ss didn't react as I kinda expected, but has been really, really town in other ways. The only thing that bugs me a little is the way he kinda lags, reacting to stuff from 2-3 days earlier, but it does track with his availability to play. I mention this because to me, it's just about the only thing that still gives me any pause about Ss at this point, Quil is still scumreading him, and in fact is the only player voting him, despite making noises about his read softening.

[sangres]

Not really. he's a low-ish meta priority for me because I know Nacho has played with him more.

I didn't specify that his read/vote has a sticky feel to me, though it's in the subtext of what I wrote. he's holding onto the vote in the face of a lot of posting that looks pretty damn town to me, and has garnered quite a few strong townreads from other players.

p-edit yes I do. strong townreads narrows my lynch pool down to quil and Yuriko, with bbmolla as a distant 3rd.

[sangres]

Not really. he's a low-ish meta priority for me because I know Nacho has played with him more.

Do you find not getting serious quick enough is objectively scummy overall in your experience?

-b

depends on context and timing. Someone basically making their entrance on page 10 of a fast moving game and doing so with an rvs-esque post bothers me, but I'm accustomed to it. rvs is sort of an entitlement to some players. Floating along in the game, passing up stuff to jump on looks objectively scummy to me. Quil and bbmolla both were in that mode for a while. I liked the way molla finally engaged when he engaged more than I like the way Quil did.

[sangres]

bork, I think you know that the early phase of day 1 is one of the most enjoyable aspects of mafia to me. It's also a part of the game where some of my most enduring reads form.

I've tried to map Quil's play onto how I feel about the early game, and there are things that just don't feel right, and the Ss trajectory is very troubling. Another trajectory that made me wonder was his rvs vote on us. We came under fire for the Rancid read and vote. I haven't looked back to confirm (will do that in a bit) but I remember thinking that Quil didn't seem really invested in sorting us during that, though his vote was still on us.

[sangres]

Not really. he's a low-ish meta priority for me because I know Nacho has played with him more.

Do you find not getting serious quick enough is objectively scummy overall in your experience?

-b

depends on context and timing.

Someone basically making their entrance on page 10 of a fast moving game and doing so with an rvs-esque post bothers me, but I'm accustomed to it. rvs is sort of an entitlement to some players. Floating along in the game, passing up stuff to jump on looks objectively scummy to me.

Quil and bbmolla both were in that mode for a while. I liked the way molla finally engaged when he engaged more than I like the way Quil did.

I am having trouble relating with a lot of what you're saying in general this game because you're not being specific enough.
Did quil actually do any of the underlined? How did you like how molla engaged?

I kind of hate the fact that I feel obligated to constantly grill you about this stuff as it's really flying in the face of several things I was really comfortable about from you in particular (Nacho I am having no real luck deciphering this game) and I am constantly feeling unsure how to resolve my read on your slot

-b

What Quil did was the second. I mentioned the first because in the last game Sangres completed, Nacho voted someone for something like the first, and I wound up shortly after with a town read on the slot.

anyway. Let me go back and get post numbers for you and make sure my memory is good.

[sangres]

re Molla, it was his yuriko push. objectively I hated his saying she was firefighter or scum, but the subtext there was "and I'm so sure she's scum, I'll say it".

[sangres]

I don't think analysis is going to be my forte today. :/

[sangres]

Ok, so first off - bad memory about his trajectory on us. he did move his vote - to Pie. which doesn't stick out in my mind because it looks like a go-with-the-flow vote. he asks pie a question about what makes a stance weak and strongly implied pie's stance was weak in 108. In post 129 his scumread appeared to have crumbled and he's mediating between Pie and GB. 133 I wasn't sure about, partly because I'd recently caught the full withering effect of regfan's scumread in a game. 135 is where his read goes to town. but he didn't unvote. voteliness is next to godliness? he throws out more questions to pie and seems to wobble a bit on the read. 296 he kinda makes it official the read is shoring up.

All of this without a resolution of some sort.

Then he votes Soft-spoken. And the trajectory is similar. Read softens, vote stays. This time it feels like the original reasons for the scumread stay in place and I don't get the impression that anything in Ss's play since the vote has been taken in. 583 was his case, and one of the final thoughts there was that he didn't want to let go of the read because too large a town pile. This gives me some townfeels (and it's not like his iso is completely devoid of townfeels) because I feel like it's the sort of thought process a scum player would want to censor.

And there's much less reaction to other people's reads changes.

594 is interesting, because I think it may be true of Ss' scumgame.

612 is jarring because it's like Quil didn't get why people thought Ss scumslipped and didn't try to go back and work it out. which ties into my feel that his vote and stance are overall too sticky given the data.

619 struck me as phenomenally tonedeaf. or throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

854 and 855 give me townfeels, though. Like finally he's addressing why others are townreading Ss. Will be interested to see what Nacho thinks of them.

[sangres]

oh and i would very much appreciate some power-posting from ffery ATM because the more nacho posts the less sure i am about sangres town

My "what now?" question got an answer!

There are a ton of questions for my slot atm, but they're very specifically not questions for me.

Unlike Nacho, I feel like there's an inevitability to Yuriko getting lynched today. I'd want for other stuff to happen first, and I think most players aren't willing to end the day yet, even if they're voting Yuriko, but once inevitability locks in and becomes momentum, the gamestate is different. I can't count the number of times I've supported the lynch of a relatively unknown and new-ish looking player whose posts look scummy and they flipped town, so I can grok Nacho pushing for people to keep looking today in ways they might not until day 2 if we settle on Yuriko as early as it looked like we would.

i dont mind pushes on people who arnt yuriko... i actually favor it. i dont read yuriko scum at all im just kinda being pragmatic and accepting its probably a decent lynch with no major scumreads. the problem i have with nacho is that his pushes are incredibly unconvincing on the last few pages ... look more like throwing a vote around randomly tbh... and IIRC he has implied that he thinks yuriko is scum several times so i dont really see the point from his perspective

it's a philosophical thing. If she's lynched and flips scum where does that lead tomorrow? What associations has she left? If it leads to us, that's fine, but it won't net a second scum lynch. The more time we spend scumhunting today before lynching her, which I pretty much expect to happen, the better shape we're in tomorrow. And if we're wrong about her, even more so.

[sangres]

I'll get to questions and things tomorrow, most likely. I've just wanted the opportunity to gather thoughts and type them up on a computer since phone posting has obviously not been going so well.

I personally still want to lynch not-Yuriko. There are probably no impressive theory reasons behind the desire to counter Muffin's reasoning, I just think whoever the scum are (if they aren't Yuriko) are playing well and I'm more interested in looking there instead of pushing Yuriko since the case on her is lurking + "I have 7 town reads, two can't be wrong even though one most definitely is". They aren't bad reasons, it's just boring as hell.

[sangres]

nacho makes my head hurt...

[sangres]

Response to GB's Pieguyn thoughts:

Pies reaction towards Muffin in Post 13 / Post 17 felt over-the-top forced.

I didn't agree with this because I had the opposite reaction, for reasons I'm sure to explain later. Calling a post like that "over the top forced" automatically turned me off to your case against Pieguyn because I figured that anyone who knew Pieguyn well or knew how to read her tone would be having the opposite reaction.

The quoted bit below reads like utter bullshit - We haven't "pushed" you at all, I've merely voted you saying that your posts read over-the-top (Something that both Ffyer and Muffin have agreed with)

I disagree with this.
I think that it's reasonable for pie to approach your initial vote on her as a push because of how it was worded; you called her post "over the top forced" which is language that is strong enough to be considered as a push in my mind whereas language like Muffin's "he thinks pieguy might actually be scum" is language that isn't strong enough to considered as a push.

mentioned that I dislike you being online but taking an age to get in here for content (Which did occur).

meh

The whole "It's an awful push, they're scum!" reads as an attempt to de-credit and OMGUS

I don't think that pieguy would want to OMGUS you in this place for a multitude of reasons, but the main one being the making a gigantic enemy early and the game being far too young to put yourself in a position like that. I agree with pieguyn that your push was a bad one because it wasn't really all that aware of Pie as a player. That's not to say that your logic was bad or that the push looked scummy to me, but it wasn't a push that I was getting behind because it didn't take into account pieguyn's personality.

the attack on Quilford for being "Waffly" while doing the same thing with your Muffin read doesn't add up at all,

I believe that Muffin is probably the best scum player on site. People being waffly on him makes sense.
Quilford not taking strong stances in general (pie's point) is a different thing entirely.
The comparison doesn't really make a lot of sense here.

also dislike your lack of comment on Bork given he's the largest poster here.

I don't think anything Bork had done up to that point was revolutionary, unfakeable, or unlikely to be faked. I believe that people write Bork off far too easily because he has a very town way to approach games, so I completely understand where pieguy is coming from with her stance on him. I also don't think that pieguyn not commenting on the top poster is a big deal or scummy in any way whatsoever and would be curious why you believe otherwise.

I think I agree, if you were reading the game you'd have noticed our vote wasn't initially on you and was rather on Quilford

this is a dumb point; you're implying that pie missing your initial vote means that pie didn't read the game.

It wasn't a "everyone lynch Pie, he's scum, we're positive!" vote at all, it was a vote saying "I feel more comfortable being here"

ok. i'm sure that's what your vote meant. it's not unreasonable to take it the way pie did based on the wording.

So you making out our vote was a "push" is ridiculously scummy, like insanely scummy - it shows you haven't read the thread properly and rather are just pushing back on us.

And no, different interpretations don't mean that she isn't reading the thread properly.

I can continue quotestriping on where I disagree with your push, but I covered the main brunt of it here.

[sangres]

Nacho - what, in this post, was muffin supposed to town read pieguy for? And why is it not likely for him to think it's an overreaction and scummy, especially considering he was concerned about pieguy before this post?

my initial thoughts re: that push was that it was a strange line in the sand (and a horribly horribly horribly horribly early one) for pieguy to draw. when you make a push like that as scum, you're putting all of your eggs, all of your hopes and dreams, into a basket. when you push a player like that as scum, they will scum read you pretty much every time, and it's very very hard to make that suspicion go away after you make a push like that, especially after you give up your power after being inevitably forced to town read the slot. these risks are compounded exponentially with the setup. if you do successfully mislynch them by some stupid, stupid, miracle they are still alive forever to fuck you over. if you get them to give you a little space, fucking sucks for you because can't kill them the first night and killing them in the second is a massive waste. I didn't think pieguy would be willing to take a massive risk as scum so early.

this is why i thought pieguyn's first post was town, again

i didn't read it town for a

specific

reason, i read it as town because it was a very unlikely approach from pie-scum to take so early in the game. i think it makes more sense for pie to react like that when muffin starts pushing her (because that could actually go somewhere and is much more understandable than crazy people paranoia on a slot that will obvtown itself).

i mean, sure. we've all thought of scumgames where we go all-out aggressive immediately for no fucking reason because it looks town but we don't because there's very rarely an opportunity to push insanely stupid aggression reasonably and on page 4 and the last thing you want to do as scum is start screaming ridiculous shit at the very very beginning of the game before people have preconceptions and biases.

there are some specific phrases that sound genuine, sure, but that's not why i was townreading pieguy at that point. i think pieguy is a good enough player as scum where she can fake some town phrases like "this is one of the most lol things I've seen and I don't believe that a player of your calibre would consider this a cogent argument" pretty effortlessly.

to being your vote, the deeper you can run me through your thought process on her the better essentially.

I was tired. I was phoneposting. I was paranoid. The phrase in particular that really creeped me out was the one where she said that we had success in the past reading each other early and didn't have to think about it because there was an ongoing game at the time where she was living and scum and I was pretty fucking incorrect about her alignment on D1, and the "oh we don't have to think about our reads on each other" bit felt like blatant manipulation.

I also felt that Tammy's point about her not really doing any scumhunting past that initial GB push was fair and that also ended up feeding into the paranoia a bit; but then pie posted #784 and then that paranoia disappeared pretty much entirely.

[sangres]

we town-read almost everyone in the game (Exceptions being Pie and maybe Quilford) which makes Yuriko VERY likely scum via PoE alone, if by some chance Yuriko is town I'd rather know sooner than later since it'd mean stepping back and re-reading the whole thread and if Yuriko is scum well then boom we hit scum and can reread the thread with that in mind - there's a few players mentioning or comments on Yuriko that we think are more/less likely to be partners with her. I'm also growing extremely tired of her "I'm catching up" with zero, absolutely zero game-related content.

If I'm reading people honestly, I have townreads of varying degrees on everyone except for Yuriko. This means I am reading the game wrong. The only thing flipping Yuriko tells me is if I'm reading the game wrong (yay), or if I'm reading the game super super wrong (boo). Saying that I am not willing to lynch Yuriko today or that I don't want to lynch Yuriko today is probably being overdramatic, I do think she's the likeliest to flip scum but I'm not ready to flip her right now, especially since a Yuriko townflip would honestly just break me.

[sangres]

Empires preoccupied by RL things, was hoping he'd be the one to come in here and pretty much say "What the fuck are you doing this game" to Nacho since I think it'd have more impact and Nacho would be more likely to respond to him rather than brush me off but since he's busy;

I'm not meaning to brush you off intentionally.
I actually have been stupidly and uncomfortably busy lately and don't like phoneposting in this game because phoneposting is actually hell here. Normally I don't mind it, but explaining myself in full and responding to multiple points is hell hell hell hell, especially when I don't have time to form full thoughts (since posting needs to take place during a work commute or a work break or waiting for something when phoneposting usually). I brushed you off initially because your push on pie was something you had thought about for a while and believed in very strongly. I realize I'm not going to change your mind by half-assedly giving you half-thoughts and only kind of sort of refuting your case, and I didn't really want to waste the precious little time I had.

[sangres]

I wanted to make a pieguy-town wall too, I didn't really have time to finish it, but the two posts i've talked about/i can see where she's been coming from for a majority of the game is the brunt of that read.

[sangres]

How much of your read on me was you *actually* thinking that something I did was scummy and how much of it came down to a lack of town read?

My initial push on you was "Hmmm, maybe this is coming from RBD-scum". The rest of the push was more "nope, don't really see anything scummy anywhere else, don't really see any of this posting as town town town".

[sangres]

@sangres: which of the stuff in #888 has been brought up by other players, as you implied in #882?

Reg referred to your early posts as awkward. And Empire called your early play underwhelming. I called it slow to get serious about the game I think. Gold Saucer talked about not being satisfied with your explanation for the comment about betting GB drew scum in this game, though they later had you leaning town. In 649 I'm interpreting bork's comments about you as a reads readjustment due to having too many townreads, somewhat based on your Ss push looking bad.

That's pretty much where I'm at, as well. I feel like you could be scum because of PoE. I can nitpick your iso (and did), but in a different game a similar level of engagement and style of play would probably be a weak-ish townread or null read at this stage of the game. Doesn't make me super comfortable, and I'll overall be happier to see a Yuriko flip than yours today.

[sangres]

@Quilford:

Why is Pie town? Why is Rancid town?

[sangres]

ffery here. Not CCing

[sangres]

still liking quil for the partner in a sort of half-assed way. will think on it from other directions overnight.

back at L-1?

[sangres]

should we end this? more to talk about?

[sangres]

that's why I asked. Sure, will wait.

[sangres]

so Nacho

when you get a chance, talk to me about

BBM

Ok to assume this is now moot?

[sangres]

ALSO I JUST GOT A JOB INTERVIEW FOR A PLACE UP IN MADISON, FUCK YES FUCK YES FUCK YES

Whoooooo! When? On site?

[sangres]

I pretty strongly feel that Quilford is the partner. I don't really think anyone else makes sense, but probably want the game open tomorrow since I will have rare laptop access.

[sangres]

@Rempire:

(honestly, Nacho/ffery being there for me was really the only thing that made me feel like I could continue in this game - with that gone, it is really painful for me to even want to do anything here)

I want you to talk about this post. This post, if pie is scum, is very very harsh emotional manipulation (the only reason I've been able to stand this game is because of Nacho/Ffery townreading me). I wouldn't be capable of this sort of shit as scum. I don't think Pie would be either.

Also walk me through your Quilford town read because that seems like very obvious last scum while thinking Pie-scum requires jumping through a lot of mental hoops (oh maybe pie just played really really well and took all these risks because she had a terrible partner).

[sangres]

the advantage of that is he wants to look like he has a point here and hope people accept it as truth without actually thinking critically/checking what actually happened.

People usually can't get away with pushes like that. Regfan doesn't have a scum game where he tries to get away with pushes like that.

These kinds of odd conclusions that presume the other players in the game are mindless idiots (including the one I pointed out in #133) are really stopping me from being able to put pieguyn in the townpile which I kind of have been wanting to do based on her emotions when reacting to GB

I don't like this push. This push is essentially Quilford saying "oh, I find the emotional responses really, really town but there's this *one point* I disagree with and so I don't think Pie is town". It feels like Quilford is just keeping his options open, especially since its just one single point he's concerned about and he doesn't really make any real effort to address it on his own (he prods pieguy about it a little bit, but doesn't make a conclusion or attempt to make one based on her response).

[sangres]

#367 was pretty underwhelming as an assessment of the first 5 pages. I really don't like how he responds to sangres' question, it wasn't even directed at him. Padded out by a response to a joke by molla and a response to a post of mine that's already been thoroughly discussed, the whole thing reads like scum trying to look busy. There's not any actual scumhunting. Also don't like how he says he'll read pages 6-15 and then drops that as well, think he's afraid of people cottoning on if he puts out even more fluff. Last thing is that the abrupt change of tone in #410 is also a bit weird, oh and the fact that he hasn't explained any of his townreads and hasn't declared any scumreads at all.

I don't like this case. This case has essentially been Quilford attacking S-S for... not writing that much (in particular, the "underwhelming catchup + not catching up on pages 6-15 attacks are particularly egregious) and the rest of it (change of tone, answered a question not for him) is just padding. One of the things that very much stood out to me in his ISO is that he flirted with most Yuriko alternatives (S-S, pie, us, don't think he went after muffin but I could see him avoiding that one) but didn't actually bring attention to Yuriko even though that's where he should have been brought after his S-S push became less and less likely.

[sangres]

I think the slip is eminently fakeable (and am definitely going to look into it more when I'm not on my phone)

I didn't like him brushing off the townslip in the way he did, either, and I don't like the "I'm going to look into it more when I'm not on my phone" bit because why does he have to look into a townslip? Either it was real or it was fake, looking at it with a bigger screen doesn't affect that at all.

[sangres]

I would also like how making a big attack on a player who is obviously town is optimal scum play. When you have a weak partner in a playerlist where getting mislynches is hard, you need good credibility to force through the mislynches you need since you can't rely on town error. Making a big attack on someone who will obvtown themselves pretty much immediately means you are going to be proven wrong in a big way, which kills credibility. The actual optimal strategy with a shit scum partner is to have an interaction that makes you look as town as possible, and then start making big plays after they're dead and you are swimming in town cred from their death.

[sangres]

I would also like how making a big attack on a player who is obviously town is optimal scum play. When you have a weak partner in a playerlist where getting mislynches is hard, you need good credibility to force through the mislynches you need since you can't rely on town error. Making a big attack on someone who will obvtown themselves pretty much immediately means you are going to be proven wrong in a big way, which kills credibility. The actual optimal strategy with a shit scum partner is to have an interaction that makes you look as town as possible, and then start making big plays after they're dead and you are swimming in town cred from their death.

Because when said obviously town player has identified both you and your partner almost immediately, the only thing you have left to do is to attack the player and discredit his posting. It's a last resort kind of thing.

At any rate, I personally am still waffling on pieguyn but both Regfan and I still have problems with her play.

This argument is arrogant. It additionally implies that your initial vote on Pieguyn was a push since it was apparently strong enough to push him in last resort mode.

[sangres]

Uh dude, Regfan wanted me to tell you that he doesn't townread Quilford and that he thought his last few posts made that obvious...

You two believe pie is more likely scum than Quilford, correct?

If not, then I apologize >.>

[sangres]

I don't want a hammer until tomorrow.

I will have laptop access tomorrow, but probably won't have laptop access for the rest of the week.

[sangres]

aka until like next Sunday and probably not even then

[sangres]

Well, at least on my end, I'm waffling pretty hard between them. Like, I acknowledge that pieguyn has some town posts (I believe I even pointed a couple of them out) but the issues remain.

Anyway, if no objections, I'm going to hammer since we can just keep talking tomorrow.

So, again: why are you townreading Quilford? What are the reasons you are reading him as town?

[sangres]

Hey sangres, now that you're scumreading me would it be reasonable to expect that you would be beginning to look at my meta? Especially since both of you have a sum total of peanuts' worth of experience with my scum play?

I've looked at your meta as much as I'm probably going to; don't really care much for meta that isn't experiential.

Are you going to address my points or no, not feeling that?

[sangres]

1. No, wrong, and your shitty paraphrasing begs the question. "so I don't think Pie is town" is not at all what I said.

Your position on Pie gave you an avenue to attack her/jump on her wagon later, which was the main concern.

[sangres]

Perhaps that might indicate to you that I didn't find her response conclusive.

So where do you stand on that point now?

[sangres]

1. Not writing that much was a scumtell in context. It's certainly where the scumreads on Yuriko started from.

How does the context make that any more of a scumtell than it would normally?

[sangres]

2. Answering a question not for you is a great way to pad an already thin post out.

This is a weak post.

[sangres]

Point*.

[sangres]

3. The change of tone read as a way to look engaged in the game directly after saying he wasn't going to read nine entire pages of it.

I understand the general point is that he was acting like he was passionate to be engaged or whatever but there's not really any sort of evidence in thread that points to this being the case.

[sangres]

4. You didn't chase my case up at the time. You didn't even bother to mention it, which is odd considering one of your strong-town reads agreed with it. For you to do that now smacks of opportunism.

I was pursuing a different suspect at the time. I thought your case at the time was bad but well-intentioned; I'm currently pursuing alternatives to that theory.

[sangres]

5. The problems with Yuriko's posting were and are obvious. I was looking in other directions.

This isn't a position I'd expect you to take.

[sangres]

Softspoken, if Yuriko is scum, who do you see as possible partners atm?

[sangres]

problem is I have slightly more with Pies at the moment (The comment you quoted about Pie not replacing out is something I'd have agreed is a town-tell in the past but in the last 6 months I've seen 5+ players as scum fake-considering or actually fake-replacing out to then take the slot back as a strategic ploy to be town read so it's not something I really want to read much into).

The fake replace-out I don't give a shit about, the specific town tell I'm talking about is how she's reacting to the lost townread. She stated, in no uncertain terms, that our townread of her, that us understanding her play, was the only reason she could continue playing this game while going through shit in RL, which is very very strong emotional manipulation if scum.

[sangres]

This is likely going to be a long series of posts, I'm typing and thinking and whenever I do that I get paranoid I'm going to lose shit.

Pieguyn:

First of all, I want to establish the type of mindset pieguyn likely had during the game if he was scum because you had some preconception that Pieguyn would be taking huge risks and breaking out the last resorts

immediately

, which I very strongly feel is not the case and wouldn't have happened. When people are intimidated and facing scary fucking odds, the very first thing they do is not put everything on their line and go batshit insane; there are a good number of mental obstacles to jump over first. I've never seen scum or been scum facing ridiculous odds at the beginning of the game and then seen that scum commence to do a bunch of things they've never done before. It sounds absolutely lovely in theory, yes. Very very rarely happens in real life. I'd also like to establish that Pieguyn had shit going on in RL during the entirety of this game and has generally been pretty fucking busy, which makes it even less likely that he's bringing out all these new tools to play with.

Now, keeping that in mind, look at this:

Also, pieguy is probably scum.

how'd you figure it out?

This is the first time that pieguyn has ever jokeclaimed scum. Breaking out of the comfort zone, taking risks out of the gate is already a little bit impressive, especially in a situation like this where he doesn't have to say jack shit about it and no one has any reasonable pushes to make on it. This is significant to me because town-pie making this joke really isn't that big of a deal and barely carries significance, but it carries quite a bit for scumpie.

GB is scum, or at the very least their push on me is one of the most awful things I think I've ever seen. I haven't been fond of their other posts, either. more elaboration on this incoming.

This post, on page 4 (or 5, or whatever), is a significant risk. This post is a big play very very very very early in the game when it doesn't make any sense at all for it to be a big play. You can tell me that she was intimidated by the playerlist, fine. That doesn't mean that she has this strong of a reaction and railroads herself into this type of position early. Muffin brings up that getting into a fight at the beginning is a pretty solid scumtactic that he has to use, and I agree completely, but the reason I haven't used this type of scumtactic often is because of the difficulty in finding the proper openings and the problems with bullshitting a push like this in a strong playerlist on page 4.

I also haven't seen scumplay from pie that demonstrates or even implies that she's willing to take risks like this. Sure, I've seen her play good scumgames, but I haven't seen her do anything unconventional; she tries to sound genuine, she tries to make sense. So, in order for her to be scum here, not only is she taking specific actions that she's never tried before, but she's somehow changed how she approaches scum completely in a situation where she's stressed in real life and under serious pressure in game when experience shows time and time again that people drown under pressure.

As for 112 itself, the mistake she was making was holding you to an unreasonable standard and expecting you to be a bigger fish than you are, which is fine, celebrities seem very very large for us peons sitting in the seats. The points themselves?

1) Your Bork townread was too strong.
I agree that your Bork townread was too strong. Bork, in person and on forum, has one of the most natural scumgames I've seen because of how well his personality meshes with mafia as a game. He approaches the game in the way where it feels like he's taking it apart, but he

can

and does fake it very effortlessly as scum. The part that is unreasonable is Pie expecting you to know better, which I don't think is unreasonable because of the whole celebrity thing.

2) Your Yuriko scumread.
Also in agreement here, don't think Yuriko having incorrect reads on setup is actually scummy. It's a valid route to argue that it was scummy she speculated on the setup and did nothing else, but the "wrong = scum" fallacy is usually how scum push through mislynches, so you pushing this point on the easiest target in the playerlist is a perfectly reasonable thing to scumread.

3) The online argument.
Pie was annoyed he was pinged on activity tells when he wasn't doing an activity tell thing. I fucking hate activity tells. There is a correlation to posting and alignment in certain situations, hell yes. But it still occasionally gets under my skin when people incorrectly accuse me of scumlurking or posting elsewhere or shit like that because there's not really a way to defend that most days without site rules or lecturing about my life and all of the hardships in my life. Contextually, your argument was also pretty shitty, since pie was posting in discussion threads and not in games and usually people see if the posting elsewhere bits are substantial as opposed to seeing if they're just posting elsewhere.

voting me is pretty fucking obviously a push. this is even more so the case when you have had said vote on me for the entire game and have continually laid out additional reasons for me being scum over the course of the game. so, how is that not constituted a "push"?

Your problem with this is that it wasn't a push, but your language was strong, and, if pie is expecting you to be the mafia celebrity you're rumored to be, strong language is very easily push. The only motivation pie has as scum for calling it a push is to make her attack on you back more believable as "attacked townie responding", but it seems incredibly unlikely that pie really wanted to attack you THAT badly. Even if his tactic was to look really town by flipping out on the first person that attacked you, there was no reason she needed to force it in that particular situation and no reason she would want to.

the ffery town read is entirely about her confidence. this probably sounds really dumb but that's how I always read her and it's always been right, so it works for me. I don't think she'd immediately jump in and push Empire first thing in the game if she was scum here for this reason (it would be a more bold move than what I'm used to from her).

As I've talked about before, this felt town because on paper, they're not great reasons to townread someone. But they do have a pretty good basis in reality (I find myself noticing the confidence very very specifically), and while this isn't exactly the most compelling reasons because I'd expect Pie to read us correctly here regardless of her alignment, the way it unfolded was a minor townread. I also like how here and in her Yuriko read she forms reads and then has trouble explaining said reads afterwards. I think this is something more likely to happen as scum than town (or at least it is for me). Whenever I form a read as scum and don'

[sangres]

This is likely going to be a long series of posts, I'm typing and thinking and whenever I do that I get paranoid I'm going to lose shit.

Pieguyn:

First of all, I want to establish the type of mindset pieguyn likely had during the game if he was scum because you had some preconception that Pieguyn would be taking huge risks and breaking out the last resorts

immediately

, which I very strongly feel is not the case and wouldn't have happened. When people are intimidated and facing scary fucking odds, the very first thing they do is not put everything on their line and go batshit insane; there are a good number of mental obstacles to jump over first. I've never seen scum or been scum facing ridiculous odds at the beginning of the game and then seen that scum commence to do a bunch of things they've never done before. It sounds absolutely lovely in theory, yes. Very very rarely happens in real life. I'd also like to establish that Pieguyn had shit going on in RL during the entirety of this game and has generally been pretty fucking busy, which makes it even less likely that he's bringing out all these new tools to play with.

Now, keeping that in mind, look at this:

Also, pieguy is probably scum.

how'd you figure it out?

This is the first time that pieguyn has ever jokeclaimed scum. Breaking out of the comfort zone, taking risks out of the gate is already a little bit impressive, especially in a situation like this where he doesn't have to say jack shit about it and no one has any reasonable pushes to make on it. This is significant to me because town-pie making this joke really isn't that big of a deal and barely carries significance, but it carries quite a bit for scumpie.

GB is scum, or at the very least their push on me is one of the most awful things I think I've ever seen. I haven't been fond of their other posts, either. more elaboration on this incoming.

This post, on page 4 (or 5, or whatever), is a significant risk. This post is a big play very very very very early in the game when it doesn't make any sense at all for it to be a big play. You can tell me that she was intimidated by the playerlist, fine. That doesn't mean that she has this strong of a reaction and railroads herself into this type of position early. Muffin brings up that getting into a fight at the beginning is a pretty solid scumtactic that he has to use, and I agree completely, but the reason I haven't used this type of scumtactic often is because of the difficulty in finding the proper openings and the problems with bullshitting a push like this in a strong playerlist on page 4.

I also haven't seen scumplay from pie that demonstrates or even implies that she's willing to take risks like this. Sure, I've seen her play good scumgames, but I haven't seen her do anything unconventional; she tries to sound genuine, she tries to make sense. So, in order for her to be scum here, not only is she taking specific actions that she's never tried before, but she's somehow changed how she approaches scum completely in a situation where she's stressed in real life and under serious pressure in game when experience shows time and time again that people drown under pressure.

As for 112 itself, the mistake she was making was holding you to an unreasonable standard and expecting you to be a bigger fish than you are, which is fine, celebrities seem very very large for us peons sitting in the seats. The points themselves?

1) Your Bork townread was too strong.
I agree that your Bork townread was too strong. Bork, in person and on forum, has one of the most natural scumgames I've seen because of how well his personality meshes with mafia as a game. He approaches the game in the way where it feels like he's taking it apart, but he

can

and does fake it very effortlessly as scum. The part that is unreasonable is Pie expecting you to know better, which I don't think is unreasonable because of the whole celebrity thing.

2) Your Yuriko scumread.
Also in agreement here, don't think Yuriko having incorrect reads on setup is actually scummy. It's a valid route to argue that it was scummy she speculated on the setup and did nothing else, but the "wrong = scum" fallacy is usually how scum push through mislynches, so you pushing this point on the easiest target in the playerlist is a perfectly reasonable thing to scumread.

3) The online argument.
Pie was annoyed he was pinged on activity tells when he wasn't doing an activity tell thing. I fucking hate activity tells. There is a correlation to posting and alignment in certain situations, hell yes. But it still occasionally gets under my skin when people incorrectly accuse me of scumlurking or posting elsewhere or shit like that because there's not really a way to defend that most days without site rules or lecturing about my life and all of the hardships in my life. Contextually, your argument was also pretty shitty, since pie was posting in discussion threads and not in games and usually people see if the posting elsewhere bits are substantial as opposed to seeing if they're just posting elsewhere.

voting me is pretty fucking obviously a push. this is even more so the case when you have had said vote on me for the entire game and have continually laid out additional reasons for me being scum over the course of the game. so, how is that not constituted a "push"?

Your problem with this is that it wasn't a push, but your language was strong, and, if pie is expecting you to be the mafia celebrity you're rumored to be, strong language is very easily push. The only motivation pie has as scum for calling it a push is to make her attack on you back more believable as "attacked townie responding", but it seems incredibly unlikely that pie really wanted to attack you THAT badly. Even if his tactic was to look really town by flipping out on the first person that attacked you, there was no reason she needed to force it in that particular situation and no reason she would want to.

the ffery town read is entirely about her confidence. this probably sounds really dumb but that's how I always read her and it's always been right, so it works for me. I don't think she'd immediately jump in and push Empire first thing in the game if she was scum here for this reason (it would be a more bold move than what I'm used to from her).

As I've talked about before, this felt town because on paper, they're not great reasons to townread someone. But they do have a pretty good basis in reality (I find myself noticing the confidence very very specifically), and while this isn't exactly the most compelling reasons because I'd expect Pie to read us correctly here regardless of her alignment, the way it unfolded was a minor townread. I also like how here and in her Yuriko read she forms reads and then has trouble explaining said reads afterwards. I think this is something more likely to happen as scum than town (or at least it is for me). Whenever I form a read as scum and don't give reasons, I usually have a reason behind them ("Why?" is the most basic question ever and if you don't know how to respond to that as scum you are really really fucked), but those two reads in particular didn't feel like Pie had that.

Although, as I write this out, I note that this point is less strong for expected meta reads thanks to that whole expected thing >.>

the above 2 posts literally made me lol. please hold.

This also reads town to me because it's a very vivid reminder of that one newbie game where I totally owned pie; she tends to get really excited when she's responding to someone she has a strong scumread on and usually makes these little "just give me the time it takes to type a post and bury the living hell out of you". I'm not sure she has these same tendencies as scum.

COME OUT AND PLAY, REGFAN

You don't get to write a bunch of walls and then go "herp derp, wall wars are anti-town". I, on the other hand, love wall wars, so good fucking luck pushing any more blatantly false arguments against me here.

I need to eat/shower. I'll respond to other posts when I get back.

I actually had a long thought on this post after Muffin noticed that it was a copy of a post of his in another game; it initially seemed strange to me that Pieguyn would think to mimic a Muffin post when frustrated and pushing against who he thought was scum with the possibility of scum, but her tone when pushing you two has been pretty solidly confident the whole way through, which is again, another reason to read her as town. It's around this point where scum-pie had to have been feeling some sort of pressure to back off, but this post and her tone surrounding this post how no signs of that at all and still have that "I caught scum!" glow around them.

this can also function as a tl;dr case, I guess. I hope this better explains where I'm coming from here.

Rehashing the case in the way she did also felt very, very town. There's an undeniable need to be understood and pride in her scumhunting behind every post that she makes, which is a large part of why I'm townreading her and a large part of why I'm townreading you. I think scum in gigantic wall wars are less likely to make every part of their argument parsable; one of those lovely advantages of being in wall wars as scum is that a vast majority of people will not read them in depth.

I do tend to feel guilty playing scum though.

This quote I'm pulling to establish pie's mindset as scum a bit more:

She feels guilty when playing scum. Yes, it's fun to manipulate and trick and defeat adversaries, but she's one of those strange players who feels guilt when lying and manipulating the hell out of anyone whenever possible. The more guilt a player feels while playing scum generally, the less likely they are to attempt serious emotional manipulation (which is what that super town post I quoted would be, still don't care about replacing out).

barring myself, you're essentially left with Yuriko - arguably the lowest hanging fruit in the game - and 2 people who both, up to now at least, have been giant lurkfucks. while I suppose logically there shouldn't be an issue with it, it feels extremely naive. do you really not have any second thoughts about everyone within the "meta-circle" being town?

This paranoid sentiment is a good one, especially since the it's very very much in scum's advantage to hide in the meta circle and let town blitz-lynch everyone outside said meta circle before actually looking into it.

I almost wish I was scum right now just so I could thoroughly enjoy watching as Regfan expends all his effort trying to lynch me and fails. ~

This sort of cheekiness/confidence is unprecedented in pie-scum games.
Again, I don't think she's found some ridiculous batshit scumgame out of nowhere while being in an RL-slump, but your case requires that and that's why it's a bad one.

hmmm

@ffery:

would you say that my original angle that Regfan was saying I was scum "lying about what a push is" was reasonable? aka, if you agreed that was what he was doing would he be scum for it?

I don't have any intention to push it further; I'm asking for an entirely unrelated reason.

I thought turning to ffery to get a second opinion to determine if how Muffin was approaching the game was town or not was town. It also shows continued conviction that she was correct in her side of the argument; there's an incredibly strong temptation as scum pushing a bullshit argument to sort of drop that argument forever and always once you don't have to deal with it anymore, but the continued focus on it is added focus that it's genuine.

pedit makes me sad

[sangres]

I can get into later posts as well if you really really want me to, but to the best of my knowledge, you are bothered by early ones still.
I also can't emphasize the towntell in 784 enough.

[sangres]

I had BIG PLANS to make more posts about other people but I got carried away with pieguyn.
In other news, I'm ready for a hammer now.

[sangres]

yeah, not gonna wait for anything else, just gonna hammer

Vote: Yuriko

[sangres]

Vote: Quilford

Good morning.

[sangres]

Regfan, you are the worst.

Unvote

Uh, I need to look back at interactions and stuff whenever I get like the 5 minutes of free time that I can. Regfan told me that he thought Yuriko's reaction to Drake's PGO claim points to them being town and I am inclined to agree.

I disagree.
What type of reaction did you expect her to have if Muffin was her scum buddy?

[sangres]

I don't have a particularly strong conviction that Quilford is scum, I think that I'm just mostly bothered by his play because it's annoying.

Muffin, why do you need Nati around to do things?

[sangres]

$query=iso%20ctrl+f~yuriko$results?

gold saucer= 68
GB = 67
sangres = 42
ME = 39
pieguyn = 31
RBD = 30
quilford = 10

discuss

what do you make of it?

[sangres]

Fair

I think we're the only slot with 2 pages of iso. 42 is the number of mentions in our last 60 or so posts.

[sangres]

Empire have you had a chance to read through Nacho's late-day-1 posts about pieguy?

[sangres]

which reminds me of why i thought a sangres/yuriko scumteam was plausible even before any claiming happened. nacho treated yuriko like i would as scum

Nacho's approach to weak partners is much like Empire's.

Will you talk to me? I feel like I've been trying to get into your thoughts about this game with very little success.

[sangres]

Are you scumreading us?

[sangres]

i feel kinda detached if you havnt noticed... my mind is kinda in a puddle when it comes to mafia and i dont feel like i have much to offer other than probing

P-edit: nobody and everybody is scum imo

Pretty sure you're not. Your posts flicker with paranoia. I've only seen a couple players at MS who are able to turn on paranoia and appear spontaneous with it. You might be another, but I think it's genuine. All the other stuff you've done that feels town, I feel you could conceivably do it as scum, too.

[sangres]

ok what if i said you were scum and voted you with a serious face? what then?

I'd wonder if it might lead to a better gamesolving mode than the no-interaction we had going day 1.

[sangres]

I'm nervous about nati. About zmuffin, too, but I think his play is highly impacted by availability so far.

[sangres]

quil why is bbmolla in the mid-tier?

[sangres]

those are both RBD right?

Right.

[sangres]

ok hint: there is more than BBmolla being on that list that is whacky about it....

discuss. im out for real this time

yeah there is. but that's a pretty big piece of the gamestate floating in mid-ocean there.

[sangres]

reasons for those reads?

[sangres]

I don't have much of an issue with your having 2 in your bottom tier. But some reasonings would be pretty awesome.

[sangres]

You brought it up.

[sangres]

Quil - "2 in my bottom tier, guaranteed wrong"

ffery - "I don't have an issue with 2 in your bottom tier."

Quil - "Why WOULD you have an issue?"

ffery - "you brought it up?"

Seems to be a failure to communicate. p sure it's not my failure.

[sangres]

Quilford. :/

[sangres]

Bork what are your reads?

And also can you tell Tammy if she doesn't start playing the game that I'm gonna spite vote her and start practicing for bucket?

[sangres]

What do you think of quilfords "that's cool I'll be the first confirmed town"?

I kinda liked it, but it's also the kind of post I could see myself making as scum.

I still have a pretty wobbly read there. I'm hoping that when Quil finally makes those substantive posts he's promising, I'll have a better sense of his alignment.

[sangres]

Pie, what do you think of me townreading you based on that post?

[sangres]

if you're really in the area where you're not super fucking sure I'm town then I'm kinda at a loss.

Why? What have you done this game that's been overwhelmingly town?

Can you really not understand why I would have an extraordinarily high bar for townreading people this game?

[sangres]

Like you know Boris been town as fuck. You know I'll town, but you see an opening to be uncertain about us and so you're taking it.

Where?

[sangres]

if you're really in the area where you're not super fucking sure I'm town then I'm kinda at a loss.

Why? What have you done this game that's been overwhelmingly town?

Can you really not understand why I would have an extraordinarily high bar for townreading people this game?

Also also also this is bullshit in light of your super strong town read on pie from one post.

Just because I have a strong town read centered around one post doesn't mean that I haven't had a high bar of townreading people.

[sangres]

VOTE: sangres

He's scum.

Because I'm challenging your slot to get more involved in the game?

>.>

[sangres]

I don't know that rereading gb vs pie for the fifteenth time is going to really get me anywhere. GB responded well to my probe at the end of the day. Tammy says they're town with bravado even if she hasn't explained it in detail over skype.

The thing that most strongly rings town about me wrt Regfan is how passionately he believes in and backs up his pushes, and how strong his sense of urgency is when he's prodding and getting content from other people (for example, when he's prodding me to provide the reasons for townreading Pieguyn). Why do you think he could be scum?

[sangres]

nacho why u not know that GS is toe?

I think they're town.
I do want them to engage more.

[sangres]

Like you know Boris been town as fuck. You know I'll town, but you see an opening to be uncertain about us and so you're taking it.

Bork's

VOTE: sangres

He's scum.

Oh fuck this noise.

[sangres]

wait a sec that is ffer

No it wasn't

[sangres]

Like you know Boris been town as fuck. You know I'll town, but you see an opening to be uncertain about us and so you're taking it.

Bork's

VOTE: sangres

He's scum.

Oh fuck this noise.

Fuck your noise.

Now seriously. If Quil isn't scum, who do you think is? Or is he just scum and it's game over?

That's the goddamn question I have on autoloop this week.

[sangres]

Like you know Boris been town as fuck. You know I'll town, but you see an opening to be uncertain about us and so you're taking it.

Bork's

VOTE: sangres

He's scum.

Oh fuck this noise.

Fuck your noise.

Now seriously. If Quil isn't scum, who do you think is? Or is he just scum and it's game over?

That's the goddamn question I have on autoloop this week.

Gee I don't know. To reading my posts, which apparently neither of your heads are doing.

I've read your posts. I'm asking you what your gut wakes you up in the middle of the night and tells you about this game.

[sangres]

If I had a clue, I would say so.

You're voting us. You're obviously either clueless or scum. You're waving bork's towniness around like it's a flag that obviates you doing enough to be readable on your own. And voting us while I've been every bit as obvtown this time. You've never taken a stand on that read, just cast doubt on me from the start.

I think you're town. But neither Nacho nor I have you in our tippy-top townreads and for me it's mostly your lack of engagement, along with a paranoia about bork that I think is likely baseless.

I know you're busy, but it's ridiculous what it's taken to get you to engage us.

[sangres]

how many votes are on Quil

[sangres]

looks like maybe 3. I was concerned he put himself at L-1.

[sangres]

if you're really in the area where you're not super fucking sure I'm town then I'm kinda at a loss.

Why? What have you done this game that's been overwhelmingly town?

Can you really not understand why I would have an extraordinarily high bar for townreading people this game?

VOTE: sangres

He's scum.

Because I'm challenging your slot to get more involved in the game?

>.>

Full stop real quick:

Which of you posted the two of these I actually can't tell right now?

-b

they were both Nacho.

[sangres]

If I had a clue, I would say so.

You're voting us. You're obviously either clueless or scum. You're waving bork's towniness around like it's a flag that obviates you doing enough to be readable on your own. And voting us while I've been every bit as obvtown this time. You've never taken a stand on that read, just cast doubt on me from the start.

I think you're town. But neither Nacho nor I have you in our tippy-top townreads and for me it's mostly your lack of engagement, along with a paranoia about bork that I think is likely baseless.

I know you're busy, but it's ridiculous what it's taken to get you to engage us.

The scum or clueless argument really doesn't become you.

I have been readable on my own, just maybe not here as much as people like.

That's fucking bullshit about us not engaging you AND you were in hard boiled you saw what nacho did, I think if you were town here you'd see where I'm coming from, but instead you give this whatever the fuck this is.

It's town is what it is.

[sangres]

What are you doing to solve that auto loop question? Bork says you're in game solving mode, but I'm not seeing it.

I'm in a little bit of a holding pattern waiting to see Quil's reads and reasoning. If that read goes town, then RBD becomes my focus. I'm really concerned that Nati got involved just enough to mollify my concerns on day 1 and then p much disappeared.

[sangres]

Like you know Boris been town as fuck. You know I'll town, but you see an opening to be uncertain about us and so you're taking it.

This, Tammy.

You've never really earned that can-read-ffery card, I guess.

I'd rather drink sangria than yell at you for having a dumb read on us.

[sangres]

bork, when Nacho and I talked about this game over night 1, I had felt like I was going to end day 1 with a god tier townread on your slot. It didn't happen. Our strongest townreads are elsewhere. In the last few games where I've played with town-tammy, she wound up a very strong town read on day 1.

We want to put the niggles to bed and stop worrying.

The things that bothered me come down to feeling like your interactions with me have been somewhat formulaic, day 1 felt almost like I was re-playing the script from the mafia on the air game in some ways. That was town-me and town-you, so the dance of recognition being similar should be encouraging. Which is why I said likely baseless paranoia - how much variance should there be? I dunno. And I feel like this is a level of paranoia that is never going to coalesce into a vote. I'd just like to feel more certain.

Sometimes I visualize mafia as a trapeze. Town players let go of the bar and fly into the hands of someone they want to trust completely. In the air, committed, no turning back is an awful place to start doubting.

[sangres]

Like you know Boris been town as fuck. You know I'll town, but you see an opening to be uncertain about us and so you're taking it.

This, Tammy.

You've never really earned that can-read-ffery card, I guess.

I'd rather drink sangria than yell at you for having a dumb read on us.

Stop antagonizing Tammy if you don't want to be antagonized back.
Remember Vesperia?

-b

I didn't start this.

[sangres]

And tammy, you know how that hard boiled game worked out. I doubt scum-nacho will ever take that approach in a game with you again.

bork, if you have stuff you want to talk about, I'll be checking in a few times tonight. If we can get this shit sorted out that would be great, but mostly I'm waiting to see some stuff from Quil and Rancid right now.

[sangres]

Pie, plz find time to get caught up. On night 1 I felt like had some awesome reasons why you're town. But, it's not the kind of read that survives without reinforcement.

[sangres]

No idea how scum-us would handle it. Don't have to think about it. We've already done stuff that I wouldn't have wanted to do if we were scum, so probably not defend the crap out of pie and probably go for max towncred in our yuriko stance. trying to lynch you is FIRST not what we're trying to accomplish and SECOND not a strategy we'd take as scum anyway.

[sangres]

bork, when Nacho and I talked about this game over night 1, I had felt like I was going to end day 1 with a god tier townread on your slot. It didn't happen. Our strongest townreads are elsewhere. In the last few games where I've played with town-tammy, she wound up a very strong town read on day 1.

We want to put the niggles to bed and stop worrying.

The things that bothered me come down to feeling like your interactions with me have been somewhat formulaic, day 1 felt almost like I was re-playing the script from the mafia on the air game in some ways. That was town-me and town-you, so the dance of recognition being similar should be encouraging. Which is why I said likely baseless paranoia - how much variance should there be? I dunno. And I feel like this is a level of paranoia that is never going to coalesce into a vote. I'd just like to feel more certain.

I really don't know what to say to this because I don't know how it constitutes a fear of something I'm doing that I shouldn't be. You basically just said "You acted like you did the last time you were town and for some reason that bothers me"

Unless you want to qualify "formulaic"

So again, what are you worrying about?

Like after all this "your play is not unfakeable / not super town / making me paranoid" I don't think either you or Nacho has talked about an actual tangible thing I've done the entire game.

-b

This has been a recurring theme. I talk in generalities and you ask for specifics, usually specific posts. That drive to granularity is something that I associate with your town game. In tales of you, you pushed me for a short while and then settled into a town read that I was happy to trust and accept because of our previous two hydra games, where I felt like we had started to develop a decent understanding of each others' approach to mafia.

In mafia on the air, it took a lot more interaction before you were comfortable I was town, and I'm not sure it was ever a strong read before I claimed mason on day 3 or 4 or whenever it was. But, what you wanted in that game was signs of analysis, and I think what you were looking for from me was signs of a process of developing reads.

This game, you push for details - what specific post made me have thought X about a player. In one instance, I pulled up an ISO and did a somewhat intentionally sketchy job of backing up my generalities with some specifics. I was surprised you didn't dig into that more deeply.

And that's what I mean by formulaic. The push was there, but in that instance especially, it didn't go further and I thought it would.

You're pushing for details, but your read for the most part, when you've indicated you think I'm town, has been based on tone and mindset, not details.

And that's not entirely unreasonable. As scum, I am good at details when I need to be. What I really have to reach for is tone, and the ring of truth and confidence about my stances. So, the slight disconnect between what you push vs what seems to convince you I'm town when you're convinced catches my attention, and makes me wonder. But I'm very doubtful it's indicative you're scum. Because I read you by mindset and by tone. And those channels of data tell me you're town.

[sangres]

What specific person are you talking about that you did an intentionally sketchy read?

heh.

your question was 895

my iso dive was 901

[sangres]

This game, you push for details - what specific post made me have thought X about a player. In one instance, I pulled up an ISO and did a somewhat intentionally sketchy job of backing up my generalities with some specifics. I was surprised you didn't dig into that more deeply.

I wouldn't mind seeing this at some other time; I doubt it will be pertinent for me to read you at this point and I'm sure it won't be pertinent for you to read me since you've exposed your motivation about it.

I really do need to go to bed now but I think what I'm ultimately getting out of that is that my scum/townhunting style is a lot less formulaic than yours is / than you think mine is / should be.

My tone, is, as you have pointed out, not.

-b

I don't think you're getting the right things out of it, but that could be the sangria getting in the way. I don't think my methods of forming reads are formulaic at all. I've been surprised many times when someone said they look for "X" in my towngame, when "X" is something that I did or articulated once, in some game from a year and a half ago and never before or since.

We can try to hash it out further tomorrow.

[sangres]

What specific person are you talking about that you did an intentionally sketchy read?

heh.

your question was 895

my iso dive was 901

You're responding to Tammy but I assume that was meant for me.

I remember reading that post but I think you can plainly see I never commented on it at all - I didn't say anything like "yep that looks good" and I think you're holding me to an unreasonable standard that I should have dug into it - I can think of any number of reasons I might not have done that, ranging from simply forgetting to / skimming it / running out of time / found other more pertinent things to talk about

Otherwise I simply don't think you're being fair. You should have pinged me about it if you wanted my attention.

-b

I have stared at this post for several minutes trying to see this as an issue of fairness.

And then I laughed. I think I see what makes my style of play ambiguous to you sometimes.

Participation changes people's behaviors that I'm trying to observe. It also changes how I perceive the behaviors because I'm part of them. Sometimes in mafia I want to make things happen. Sometimes I want to see how things unfold without jostling too much.

I don't expect scum to make a major misstep, and I do expect the last scum to he hard to find. The bar is high, not because "this is what we expect of bork". It's high because holy shit I can find decent reasons to think nearly everyone is town.

[sangres]

also, the read itself wasn't sketchy. the problem with my post was that the specifics didn't line up very well to the generalities I'd laid out earlier. Which was a problem with my generalities. I expected some grilling and I left an opening for that to happen rather than sew it all up tight in the one post.

[sangres]

Pie's done plenty of things that have pulled me in both directions.

What are the things that pulled you in the scum directions specifically?

[sangres]

When you have a weak partner in a playerlist where getting mislynches is hard, you need good credibility to force through the mislynches you need since you can't rely on town error.

How does this factor into your Quilford read, then?

Based on the scumgames that I've read from Quilford, I don't think he's the type of player to think much in a scum game beyond "survive".

[sangres]

The only person you could challenge to be more involved in the game is me. I'm the one who's bern busy. Borks been here trying to figure out the game. If you were town, you wouldn't be ignoring that.

How have I ignored that Bork's been trying to figure out the game? I'm not pretending that he's been sitting here the entire game doing nothing and I haven't said that your slot was scummy or bullshitting or useless. I do want to see more from both of you because I feel like your voices aren't as front and center in the fray as they could be.

[sangres]

And honestly, I don't know whether that belief is because I haven't read the game closely enough or you guys have been slipping into the background a bit. Don't care. I don't have as good of a grasp as I should on your perception of the game state, and the way I'm going to do that is by prodding.

[sangres]

But you're doing the same exact thing you did in hard boiled. You thought I was lynchsble then so you completely overlooked my toe tells and why I was town because you thought you'd be able to lynch me in that player list, and here you suddenly can't see where Bork's been super town and you're ignoring what you should not be for why I'm town.

I don't think your slot has been so untouchably town where me pushing you to feel more confident in reading your slot us somehow unacceptable. If the "super obv town" you're referring to is prodding and pushing and trying to figure out the game, all players alive minus Quilford and BBMolla have showed a pretty solid scumhunting effort, but doesn't make them untouchable.

The only similarity to my play this game and my play in hard boiled is that I confronted you in both. The obvious difference that you're ignoring for some reason is that in hard boiled, I called you scum for bullshit reasons and tried to mislynch you. In this game, I'm saying I have a town read on you but want to get more comfortable with my read on you by going through your views on the game with you. But instead of addressing my concerns or putting down analysis, you're accusing me of ignoring everything you've ever done in this game, which is a bit dramatic.

[sangres]

And completely inaccurate!

[sangres]

But hey it's okay! If you need bucket go for it, but you better work extra fucking hard in the coming days to look town because I'll be a confirmed fucking town voice pointing out your bullshit and maybe just maybe region will get over that 100% inexplicable town read on your slot.

And, as I've said a couple times already and will probably continue to say far into the future, I'm still townreading you. I want to see more from you. I want to see more from Bork.

From Bork's end, I want to see why he has trepidations with Regfan's play. I want to understand his position on Pieguyn because he seems to share a perspective with me re: that emotional town tell thing and I want to understand why he's town town town.

From yours, I know zero of your reads except Regfan town. I haven't seen you make a concerted effort in actually gamesolving. I want you in the game thread not only to quiet my own concerns, but also to help me form a clearer picture of the game.

[sangres]

imo it looks like gold saucer is offended that riding on town-read laurels wont cut it

Yeah, you're righ congratulations!

Nacho is being opportunistic as fuck.

The argument is that I'm riding on Regfan's coattails in order to secure a mislynch on you is ridiculous. First of all, Regfan's argument in that he was paranoid of Bork because Bork played optimally is a shitty argument and very obviously isn't going anywhere. Secondly, we still would have a viable mislynch in Quilford that we would most definitely need and wouldn't be so confident in getting that we wouldn't do things that could get us in trouble while mislynching him until we mislynched him. Thirdly, do you

really

think that this is the playerlist to mislynch you in? And that this is a game where mislynching you would be an idea that's not completely stupid?

[sangres]

if we arnt lynching quil its RBD or or GB. im entirely agnostic when it comes to these 3

Why do you think GB could be scum?
Why not lynch pie?

[sangres]

And hey I get regfan being somewhat paranoid, thigh he really shouldn't be, but he doesn't have experience with Bork so needing me to post to feel better about our slot makes sense. It shouldn't be coming from you, not in the way it has.

What do you mean, in the way it has?

[sangres]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Quilford

Can we just do this? I think I'll be 9000% more useful once you guys don't have to worry about my alignment and I don't have to worry about you guys worrying about my alignment.

And my reads will come soon, I just was checking MS over lunch and saw shenanigans happening here

This seems really really stupid and out of the blue. Why decide to self-vote while Tammy and I were arguing? Clearly momentum is shifting away from you or everyone wouldn't be talking about second suspects.

[sangres]

I still need to evaluate Nacho's push on them.

You don't have any initial inklings about it?

[sangres]

If I had a clue, I would say so.

You're voting us. You're obviously either clueless or scum. You're waving bork's towniness around like it's a flag that obviates you doing enough to be readable on your own. And voting us while I've been every bit as obvtown this time. You've never taken a stand on that read, just cast doubt on me from the start.

I think you're town. But neither Nacho nor I have you in our tippy-top townreads and for me it's mostly your lack of engagement, along with a paranoia about bork that I think is likely baseless.

I know you're busy, but it's ridiculous what it's taken to get you to engage us.

I would like you to substantiate this. When have I not been doing enough on my own? Since day start?

Mostly what I want you to substantiate is this "it's ridiculous what it's taken to get you to engage us." Because from where I'm sitting you haven't tried not once. I looked at your posts since day start, and you didn't address us at all. You didn't engage with Bork when he was here and posting, so how is it ridiculous because to me this looks like word vomit designed to brow beat me into a town read on you. You've been pulling the scum or dumb crap since day one and it's nothing more than you going oh watch out if you don't town read me I'm going to scum read you.

If you and Nacho spoke about the game and it surprised you to find that we weren't your top town read, how come there wasn't a peep from you guys until people started worrying about us? Because there's been absolutely no indication that you're worried about us until Nacho asked Bork what he's done that's so town. And hey, maybe you don't intend to mislynch us today because yeah that probably wouldn't be good play, but laying the groundwork for it? I can totally buy that.

And speaking of, we are not going to go through our iso and tell you why we're town and what we've done so town. I swear you guys are not reading our posts. I want to see you guys come to a read organically. Talk to us. Tell us what you have a problem with. Do your read thing because that's what will help me determine your alignment not threats of being scumread or nebulous insults about my cluelessness. In final fantasy x when Nati/I were paranoid of you, you expressed the concern that I was reading you incorrectly much more naturally, here it feels forced like you're going through the motions of it to get me to back off.

And also while we're at it, why are you just sitting around waiting for Nati to show up? You've played plenty of games with muffin, so why aren't you trying to read him either?

I'm in a ton of pain and a terrible mood. probably related.

I can't answer this the way I want to answer it right now, so this is acknowledgement that I see it and will get to it later. maybe tonight. I don't want to inflict my current mood on the game again.

From what I've gathered from your other posts today you're addressing Nacho but this one is mine.

[sangres]

If I had a clue, I would say so.

You're voting us. You're obviously either clueless or scum. You're waving bork's towniness around like it's a flag that obviates you doing enough to be readable on your own. And voting us while I've been every bit as obvtown this time. You've never taken a stand on that read, just cast doubt on me from the start.

I think you're town. But neither Nacho nor I have you in our tippy-top townreads and for me it's mostly your lack of engagement, along with a paranoia about bork that I think is likely baseless.

I know you're busy, but it's ridiculous what it's taken to get you to engage us.

I would like you to substantiate this. When have I not been doing enough on my own? Since day start?

Yeah I was thinking about since day start. Didn't express myself very well. What struck me as absurd was you going from zero to full blown scum-read because Nacho basically asked you to step it up.

As background, we talked about our mutual feeling that you hadn't really made a major mark on the game on day 1 during night 1, and were hoping to see more from you today. A couple times, in our drive-by texts to each other, I asked Nacho if he thought I should poke you, and he thought no - that it would be a more productive engagement to just ask you what you're thinking. So, I held off, kinda expecting that he'd ask you questions if you didn't just spontaneously get more active.

Mostly what I want you to substantiate is this "it's ridiculous what it's taken to get you to engage us." Because from where I'm sitting you haven't tried not once. I looked at your posts since day start, and you didn't address us at all. You didn't engage with Bork when he was here and posting, so how is it ridiculous because to me this looks like word vomit designed to brow beat me into a town read on you. You've been pulling the scum or dumb crap since day one and it's nothing more than you going oh watch out if you don't town read me I'm going to scum read you.

Where did I pull scum or dumb on day 1?

I do feel like you should have been able to read me, and I was annoyed that you said (more than once) that you didn't get the townreads on me because I hadn't done anything I would only do as town. It annoyed me. I felt like you were undermining other players' reads on me and not making any obvious effort to refine your own read.

Bork and I didn't really cross paths during day 2 until two nights ago or whenever it was.

I'm not going to substantiate that statement because it's a bad statement - more about what's been going through my mind - WHEN is too long? WHEN do we stop waiting - than what had happened in the game thread. I apologize for saying it.

If you and Nacho spoke about the game and it surprised you to find that we weren't your top town read, how come there wasn't a peep from you guys until people started worrying about us? Because there's been absolutely no indication that you're worried about us until Nacho asked Bork what he's done that's so town. And hey, maybe you don't intend to mislynch us today because yeah that probably wouldn't be good play, but laying the groundwork for it? I can totally buy that.

We know you've been busy. You're not a scumread. I really wanted to put the niggles to bed and move on, but was letting Nacho handle the pace. I have some more to say about my overall play around you. It will come at the end.

And speaking of, we are not going to go through our iso and tell you why we're town and what we've done so town. I swear you guys are not reading our posts. I want to see you guys come to a read organically. Talk to us. Tell us what you have a problem with. Do your read thing because that's what will help me determine your alignment not threats of being scumread or nebulous insults about my cluelessness. In final fantasy x when Nati/I were paranoid of you, you expressed the concern that I was reading you incorrectly much more naturally, here it feels forced like you're going through the motions of it to get me to back off.

I don't get what you mean about threats. Nacho threatened to spite-vote you, not vote you because he was scumreading you.

I think my last paragraph, if I write what I mean, will explain some of the rest.

And also while we're at it, why are you just sitting around waiting for Nati to show up? You've played plenty of games with muffin, so why aren't you trying to read him either?

I basically get two kinds of zmuffin reads - A quick, early "Oh hell yes and thank Tlaloc, he's town!" and "hellifino" - which is hell to resolve and too often resolves in a misread. I've never gotten the former when he was scum, except for the first game I played with him when he came back from a hiatus in 2013. I don't often get the latter when he's town, but it does happen.

Nati is a hell of a lot easier for me to read.

But, muffin is also pretty absent lately, so I don't really feel like I can do a lot there atm either.

So, to what I was going to add here. I've been uncomfortable playing with you (and Ceph) ever since early days of the smite game. It's not at all your fault and it's something I have to work through, and I feel like this game is a pretty decent move in that direction whether you read us correctly or not - I'm more concerned that I can do what I need to do in order to read you. Bork mentioned the vesperia game. I don't feel like my willingness to engage and expectations for how it will work out when/if I do are at that level of godawfulness, and I feel like this game marks an improvement in my own attitude, but it's a long, unpleasant slog and as the game has progressed - especially in the last 2-3 days - I've recognized that it's not just that I'm not back to a point of feeling "let's get the sorting over and proceed to gamewrecking", it's that I don't think that kind of cooperation is even possible this time. And that's probably ok. I'm looking for a new equilibrium, not a return to an old normal. I need to keep that in mind and not get stressed.

Part of me really does want to call you names for misreading us this time, when I feel like I have been as transparent as I can be in a hydra situation where our gears aren't meshing all that well for some reason. But, the seeds of the misread are probably right there.

All in all, I'm feeling pretty discouraged. The players I feel most like I need to sort aren't doing much. And I feel like I finally pushed my read on you guys to rock-solid, but can't really be happy about it because of the cost involved.

And I'm enjoying (not!) a certain sense of deja vu about the situation. So many times, in playing short-deadline games, I wound up using antagonism as a means to develop a difficult or ambiguous read quickly. And so many times, I wound up with a townread on the player at the expense of (usually temporarily) cratering their read of me and cooperation with me. Because that's what happened here. I think this was a town reaction to Nacho on both your parts and I'm done worrying about you guys.

So yeah, discouraged. If shit starts to happen this weekend I'll get it in gear. If not, then I'll try to pick back up on Monday, hopefully with less attitude and more brain cells. On top of everything else going on this month, I'm on a bunch of different medications for nerve pain. Right now some are being phased out and others are being ramped up and I feel like my system's a toxic waste dump.

[sangres]

pieguy, in 1349 you laid out reasons why Quil's play doesn't make a lot of sense from scum. In 1397 you still seem to have him scum by PoE.

This mirrors my feelings about Quil pretty well - if I didn't have too many decently strong townreads I'd be looking elsewhere.

What's your GB read? I looked through your day 2 iso and you haven't had much to say about them lately.

[sangres]

sigh.

I wish you could keep playing.

[sangres]

I don't disagree with 1400. I asked because it didn't seem like you had articulated a new stance on GB, but the scumread appeared to be gone given you said you think scum are in Quil/RBD in 1397.

[sangres]

have you played with scum-Nati before?

[sangres]

A couple times.

I'm kinda meh about explaining what I think she does (or did) as scum in those games because meta arms race, but she is worrying me.

[sangres]

post 357 gave me townvibes too. I dunno if that sort of thing is in his scum repertoire, but I've only seen him make that kind of declaration as town in the past. Which doesn't get to the question of where to find mislynches at all.

I do feel like we're not easy to mislynch in this player list. But, it's a pretty tough player list to find mislynches in, period, IMO

I'll probably say more about the specifics re Nati if I still have concerns after one or both of the check back in. Tone's part of it, but it doesn't reduce to tone-only.

[sangres]

UNVOTE

speed read plz and give your thoughts.

[sangres]

pie, I've read your posts. am afk for the next several hours. will reread and give you my thoughts tonight or tomorrow.

[sangres]

if we arnt lynching quil its RBD or or GB. im entirely agnostic when it comes to these 3

Why do you think GB could be scum?
Why not lynch pie?

do you have a scum read on me?

no

[sangres]

although i've recently had paranoid flashes because it would suck if you were scum
but then again i've had paranoid flashes about everyone!

[sangres]

So your turn. Do something. Show me you're actually trying to figure out the game because you don't get to sit up in your condescending chair and claim we should be doing more while ignoring every thing we have been doing, not doing a damn thing yourself, and sitting around and waiting.

woah woah woah this isn't fair
just because i want you to put my paranoid fears to rest and also help me do stuff doesn't mean that i'm ignoring things. and while my contributions have been spaced apart, they have been there. sure i didn't participate in you and empire talking about meta but i did participate in pushing quilford as recently as whenever i posted last.

again, just because i'm asking you to do things doesn't mean i think you've done nothing. it's that i'd like stronger reads on you and i'd like a stronger effort to figure shit out, which isn't an unreasonable request from any player in the game. it's a hard game.

[sangres]

Something that just occured to me while reading the latest Gold Saucer vs. sangres stuff: so we know that trees that get mislynched get to stick around forever basically unless they get doused/ignited (a process that takes at least two day phases to do)...my question is how do you guys expect this to inform the scum strategy in this game? I have some theories about it but I'd like to see what all of you think first.

As a hint for what I think: we might be approaching this game the wrong way.

i expect that scum won't push for mislynches that will kill them afterwards and won't make pushes that compromise the everliving fuck out of them

[sangres]

Sooooooooo you're voting quilford, but you don't have really any particularly strong convictions that he's scum. Why are you voting him then?

i don't have any particularly strong convictions that anyone is scum
i'm voting the person who i feel has the highest chance of being scum

[sangres]

tried reading again. Nacho, why do you need GS to be "more invested" in the game than they currently are? do you think they might be scum or do you just want to hear their thoughts on the game? if it's the latter, why is that apparently necessary enough to keep poking at them (despite a lack of time due to RL coming from one head) over it?

I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to get out of doing this.

both

i'm trying to feel really really really good about the slot
and i'm trying to see where they stand on the game to see what they're picking up on and i'm missing

[sangres]

i feel sort of weird in this game because when i don't know who's scum i tend to just flail around and attack things and let paranoia run free (or lurk). and i feel that people should know this about me by now but everyone in the game is giving me weird looks for flailing around and attacking things? maybe I don't do it as much as I thought I did?

[sangres]

Ffery says that you guys talked over and discuss REITs. If that were the case and you were surprised that we were in your top town read then if there was any concern at all how come that wasn't put in the thread. It would says that you guys talked over and discuss Reads. If that were the case and you were surprised that we were in your top town read then if there was any concern at all how come that wasn't put in the thread.

i don't put my paranoia in the thread all the time
particularly my paranoia on you
you have strong reactions to me paranoiaing on you so i normally wait until i have something substantive

[sangres]

How I feel about this game

i support your efforts!

[sangres]

How I feel about this game

i think quilford-slot is probably the last scum still!

[sangres]

maybe!

[sangres]

On phone while walking so I'm not going to quote, but you didn't call me scum in hard boiled, you assessed the game state and had your town reads as ones you had to have and needed to review me and cephrir. You ignored the reasons why both of us were town as well as ignoring a pretty strong townslip by me. The closest you really came to calling me scum was saying that my response to you needing to feel better about me wasn't passionate enough. Then you claimed you were tricking me into obvtowning.

You're doing the same thing here. You are assessing the game state for your reads and concerns. You're seeing what you can get away with.

i don't remember hard boiled because i don't have a mutant memory
that's probably not how i'd approach it as scum in this player list. playing with fire is kind of a really stupid move most of the time.

[sangres]

i think quilford-slot is probably the last scum still!

Would you consider his replace out a sort of depressed "we've-lost" replace out then?

yeah
being in his position as scum in this game would be absolutely torturous because he knows he's going to lose
but he also knows there's going to be pages and pages and pages and pages of discussion and that people will expect him to produce a lot and nothing he ever produces will be good enough and bleh

[sangres]

hold on, will finish that thought soon

[sangres]

yeah
being in his position as scum in this game would be absolutely torturous because he knows he's going to lose
but he also knows there's going to be pages and pages and pages and pages of discussion and that people will expect him to produce a lot and nothing he ever produces will be good enough and bleh

i can see him having trouble finding a reason to post anymore, especially after his first couple of attempts to push people off him fail
i can't see him having that much trouble as town in this game

[sangres]

Fairly confident Quil is playing to his scum meta btw

What distinguishes his scum game?

[sangres]

thoughts so far?

[sangres]

this is ffery.

When you hydra do you usually synch before posting analysis?

I'm pre-inned to a game that's going to start soon, and I can't handle lots of simultaneous games right now, so I'm exercising draconian self-control and not looking at queues right now.

[sangres]

This is my first game with hito as a player, too. I adore his game designs.

[sangres]

Fiery I still need to respond to your post but I have a terrible headache and don't want to respond on my iPad, so I will later.

No need to respond, uinless you have questions for me about it.

[sangres]

GG I'd really like for you guys to get caught up enough to opine about S-s.

[sangres]

Mostly, what your fresh eyes think about Pieguy's case on S-s.

[sangres]

will look at it in detail later but hydra dissonance to protect a partner/push mislynches is a very good scum tactic and I do it often

Our hydra has arguably been as dissonant as Rancid, if not more so. We were split on our Yuriko read, among other disconnects. What was it about Rancid's play that caused their dissonance to stand out to you when ours apparently didn't register?

Nachoffery...... Ffery is the easier head to read, though I'm no slouch at nachoscum either. Nacho is better at scum IMO. He will dominate most of the hydra if they rolled scum. Ffery was towning it up and getting reads and opinions on people and interacting and all that in a manner that I don't think she's capable of as scum. She would just sit back and let town destroy themselves.

And this is not how we operate as a scum-hydra.

[sangres]

MS, what happened to your legendary speedreading ability?

[sangres]

happy scum day, sangres

Spoiler:

We're two years old!

[sangres]

I've asked nacho if he's seen pieguy's scum-case on SS. he hasn't, though he might get to it soonish since I mentioned it.

I could work up a serious head of steam being paranoid about SS, but I don't feel like it's particularly reality-based right now. I'm more or less waiting to see what ms and hito spit out once they've digested the game. And waiting for muffin or nati to get caught up and put some developed thoughts into the game.

[sangres]

Soft-spoken. :/

[sangres]

Rancid. :/

[sangres]

We agree;

VOTE: Rancid

[sangres]

I think that's L-1.

[sangres]

Remind me why pieguy was a solid town read?

[sangres]

Yeah I'm more comfortable voting Rancid.

[sangres]

Pie? Do you have some more Rancid-town case that you want to put down?

I really don't think it's S-s. I don't feel strongly that it is Rancid, but there are stronger reasons to see everyone else as town at this point.

If there's a day 3, then I think it needs to start with a hard look at GG and GB.

[sangres]

@Sangres, I imagine the above post is a ffyer one, am I right?

You are right.

[sangres]

augh the wait.

[sangres]

Yay!

[sangres]

Thanks for the game, Phenenas.

Thanks for running this! As the first mod to run this setup, what are your thoughts about it?

As a player, I felt like the player list deeply influenced how the game unfolded.

Nacho and I commented to each other night 1 that in a way, it was a shame that Yuriko drew scum. If both scum had been part of the meta-circle day 1 would have been a much higher likelihood of a mislynch.

GG replacing in probably saved that slot from being the day 2 lynch, though I was not feeling our vote and was casting around for other possibilities long before they replaced in. I felt like my ambivalence about Quil being scum was causing some scum-vibes about us in other players, though. distancing is a thing and so is looking ahead to the next mislynch.

[sangres]

yeah the setup didn't really get exercised this time out. . I'd like to see it run a few more times.

[sangres]

Thanks for running this! As the first mod to run this setup, what are your thoughts about it?

Hey now....Im suprised no one knew about this game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=58803.

I didn't watch as much as I would have liked, but it was cool to see someone else running this setup. If I find time I might run it again some time this fall.

Anyway, congrats to the town for a perfect win!

Wow, that game went several game days with fewer pages than this one. I'll read through it - should show how the mechanics work much more thoroughly than we did.