Micro 621: Mafia in Rarefaction (Game Over)

[RedCoyote]

VOTE: Kappy

Doing what he thinks he's "supposed" to do. Artifical-feeling.

[RedCoyote]

That would be a serious vote, Rach.

[RedCoyote]

Sorry, shotty, I was busy living the biggest and most important city in Texas.

Actually, if you read my post, you'll see that I have rationale behind casting that vote. If you wish to dispute my argument, you're certainly free to do so.

[RedCoyote]

Yes, I get it, despite the fact that I'm from Houston.

I actually live outside of Houston proper, but it's close enough. I wonder if I should just change it to SE Texas sometimes... or just Texas.

Whiskey sour sounds good right about now. All I have is some crappy vodka the liquor store was trying to get rid of.

[RedCoyote]

You gotta start somewhere.

[RedCoyote]

I thought Dallas was bigger than Houston?

Population-wise, it is not. Popularity-wise, it probably is.

[RedCoyote]

I find shotty's vote the more suspicious one though since it seems red said you got to start somewhere, and then shotty sheep voted.

Its enough to make me suspicious, but not enough for me to scum read him yet.

I don't know why either vote has to be suspicious.

---

Infinity, I feel like you're being super reachy; trying to analyze RVS behavior helps, but trying to draw actual conclusions seems reductive. plus, relatively speaking, I feel like RachMarie has contributed a higher then average amount so far.

There's some truth to this, I think. He seemingly keeps going and I wonder if it's helping him much or he's just doing it to make it look like it is.

---

Every game there's someone who says "why do you have such strong reads it's too early" but in reality pretending to have strong reads is what generates the reactions that allow you to get actual strong reads.

This is true. There's such a thing as going overboard, too. Knowing when to step back is just as important as knowing when to step up.

Anyway, some town pings on tne's posts 47 - 52. I liked how she admitted that she was getting town feelings on Infinity, only to do an about face when Infinity kept going (noticing a pattern yet?) and turn around and call him out for LAMIST. Like, I can see those gears turning in her head because I've got similar ones going in mine.

[RedCoyote]

Rach, no, I don't. I think starting a wagon is a reasonable thing for town to do. I know you aren't interested in joining the Kappy wagon, and that's fine, but that shouldn't necessarily mean that it's a scummy wagon. Pressure is the only thing that helps us scumhunt.

[RedCoyote]

Rach, it's starting to interest me how often you keep harking back to the Kappy wagon. You can see I'm not really promoting it (there's nothing to promote while Kappy lurks), but I think you've talked about it more than anyone else.

81 & 83 seem weird to me, especially given that you're voting tne.

[RedCoyote]

Infinite vs. Xyzzy is scum vs. town.

Vote on or the other plz.

Lets not dwell in these RVS votes.

This is not good enough for me to switch votes, but I'd be more partial to Infinity here if I had to pick.

---

TNE seems pretty town to me atm.

I wouldn't get too comfortable with her if she's sitting there saying there's scum between you and xyzzy unless you are pretty confident that xyzzy is scum. If I was in your shoes, I'd have to think on that one long and hard.

[RedCoyote]

Oh, wow. I just realized that Kappy is V/LA until the 5th. I had no idea.

Mod

, I take it Kappy is staying in the game? I generally pay no mind to V/LA's because I assume either they are for 3 or 4 days or the slot gets replaced.

UNVOTE: Kappy

So, great, that roleslot basically gets a free pass D1 if he stays in the game. In the mean time, I'm going to VOTE: Infinity 324. This is a more productive use of my vote. LAMIST has been brought up, but, additionally, Infinity strikes me as highly... I don't know... removed from the game? I don't mean literally in that he's not around, he very much is, but he comes across as though he's observing or commentating on the game more than he does playing it, if that makes sense. I can go back through his posts and expand on this if someone is interested, but I hope I can get a wagon going here.

[RedCoyote]

I don't, but I don't hold out hopes of convincing you. Let's see what others have to say.

[RedCoyote]

Mine?

lazy mod

[RedCoyote]

@red please do expand because I have infin and you both as town reads.

Okay, let me give you a couple of examples:

• I think the natural town reaction when someone before you gave no reason was to give a reason.

  How many times do you have to read that above quote before you get what he's saying here? This just sounds strange and convoluted. It could be put much better. That's not really scummy in and of itself, just an example of Infinity's weird and overly academic rhetoric.
  

  The only way to actually get out of RVS is to pressure people and see how they react and how others react, yes my reads are weak and will probably change but if I don't exaggerate them I get less alignment-indicative information.
  
  Also in post 15, "after someone else before them said nothing" is the important part. TNE at least said something that could potentially be analyzed, my gut says that the second person to say absolutely nothing shows a bit of awkwardness that is more likely to come from scum.

  This is a good example. Tear this quote apart intellectually and see if you arrive at the same conclusion I do. The first part is full of game theory. He's using a lot of words to say, "I use pressure to scumhunt". There's nothing substantial here, just lecturing.
  
  The second part lays the word salad on even thicker. I get what he's trying to say, but he bogs it down so heavily with unnecessary words that it's easy to get lost. He's saying here that his xyzzy vote is justified because xyzzy extended RVS artificially.
  
  Now, stop there for a second. There's nothing wrong with saying that, but did you get that from reading what Infinity wrote when you first read it, or was my summary necessary for you to understand it? Did you have to go back and do a thorough investigation over what he actually meant?

These are just a couple examples. I could give you more, but this post already feels very bloated. Chew on what I said above and get back to me, Rach.

[RedCoyote]

How do you want me to respond to you, Infinity? I don't expect you to admit you're scum. I laid my argument out as clearly as I could for Rach, not for you.

If you are saying you have no idea what I'm talking about, I think you are being disingenuous. And if your only response is some silly strawman about "writing well", then I'm happy with my vote.

shotty's pretty much on point here, but I didn't see his defense personal so much as it was fallacious. It was bad nonetheless, however.

[RedCoyote]

I expressed my sentiment in a different (and, I guess, scummier) way than you expected.

This. Right here. This is exactly what I am referring to, Infinity. You don't see it? Your comment is so, like... what's the word xyzzy used? Distant.

"Noted. I suppose that comment was different and scummier than was to be expected."

It's incredibly hard to quantify what I'm saying here. It's a tone. It's not about writing "well" or not. That's completely beside the point. You're, deliberately I'd contend, removing yourself from the game, I think. I don't know if I've ever made a scum case against someone for this, but it's the best I can explain it.

[RedCoyote]

I don't know if I've ever even seen anyone do this, to my recollection. Perhaps Ghostwriter would be the closest example I could come up with?

[RedCoyote]

In fact, I think you're right that I am detached from the game, since a couple days after it started. I think it's a result of the game being relatively uneventful.

This is a much, much better response than 157 was. The fact that you didn't just say this earlier is concerning.

In any event, I'm more interested in responses from people not named Infinity at this time.

[RedCoyote]

I'm here. Just busy with the holiday. Let me check the thread.

[RedCoyote]

It looks scummy to me, but it's almost too scummy to be scum. That's why I asked xy how confident they were in their scum game.

This doesn't really bother me, but I may be bias because I see the same thing.

---

RE: Shadow's 190

Shadow called tne out for her wagon position. When tne protested, he said there was more to it than that. She pointed out 98, and Shadow effectively responded with, "Oh, I was just testing you lol".

I do not like this, Shadow. tne has clearly contributed more than just solely defending herself. I haven't even been paying much attention to her and I can tell you that. Why are you trying to force this scumread?

---

I think TNE is being passive and observing but not scum.

We'll look into her more later.

(emphasis added)

Yeah, we let's lynch this, please.

---

Don't be fucking stupid and vote him. He's ob town.

Why is that?

Will lynch: Infinity, Shadow
Maybe lynch: Rach, Kappy
Won't lynch: MM, NM, xyzzy, tne

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: Yeah,

we

let's lynch this, please.

[RedCoyote]

Not good enough. Is this a meta argument?

[RedCoyote]

See: 156. Rach asked me to make that post for her and I doubt she read it. Perhaps you will.

[RedCoyote]

Fair point, Shadow. I just looked at tne's ISO, and everything is straight defense for the past week. There's no offense, questions, pressure, or other intereactions at all. I will back off my initial bad reaction to your attack.

[RedCoyote]

Hey all,

I see the site is back up. Going to read over the last couple of pages.

[RedCoyote]

Mod

, I'm moving this weekend so my activity may be sparse the next few days. If Comcast does what they say they are going to, I should be fine come Monday, but we'll see.

[RedCoyote]

I'll get out the most important part of this post first, so no one misses it: I'm the innocent child. obviously there's lots of incentive for scum to nightkill me now, but hopefully something more productive than killing me can be done day 1.

I don't think you had to claim, but I see why you did. It's unfortunate that you had to since I think your wagon was a poor attempt at shielding scumInfinity from lynching, but c'est la vie.

---

Not_Mafia's 221 vote is scummy; putting someone at L-1 and then saying an hour later that you've just decided your vote is a serious one isn't great.

Agreed, but I am willing to cut NM slack on the back of shotty's very pro-town start. We clearly see the game differently, but I'm not going to jump on that as a scummy thing yet. Still, that vote was rather poor no matter how you slice it.

Noted on the pronoun.

---

Wagon hop looks bad in retrospect

The second pro-town thing I've heard from you. I wish you would've backed it up a tiny bit more, but I do like the immediate backing off.

---

I read it, I just do not agree with it. I still have Infin as a town read. I just would think if he were scum here, he would be laying a lot lower and trying to appear townie, not taking charge like he has, and I feel xyz is scummy.

It would've been nice of you to respond to me instead of leave me hanging, Rach. I do not like it when players ask questions and then do not follow up. It reads to me as though they are just asking questions for show rather than trying to scumhunt.

---

Yes but it's functionally identical to LyLo

Why is Equinox's name would you not unvote here? :/

---

Mod

, based on 246, are we to conclude that xyzzy is lying? Aren't you supposed to confirm them if they're an IC?

[RedCoyote]

I cannot continue reading until I get an answer from the Mod... UNVOTE: Infinity 324

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: Why

in

Equinox's name...

It sucks when you make a typo in your joke :/

[RedCoyote]

Okay, I forgot the rules for a second.

Infinty, I have never said you weren't trying to scumhunt? Can we address this now? Are you still online?

[RedCoyote]

Granted, but scum can act pro town. Wouldn't you agree?

[RedCoyote]

Yeah, can you admit you are scum so we can get a free lynch, please?

[RedCoyote]

Shadow, who would you vote between NM and Rach?

[RedCoyote]

Yeah, can you admit you are scum so we can get a free lynch, please?

I wish I was scum to make this true and give you guys a good start, but alas I am not. Were you scumreading my previous slot? I kind of doubt Kappy even posted (Haven't checked)

Uh, you just said you read page one and Kappy posted 3 times of page one........................................

[RedCoyote]

*said = implied, but you get what I mean

[RedCoyote]

In a perfect world, Infinity, Fire and Rach would all die instantly and town would win the game, I think.

[RedCoyote]

I did respond Red, I stated I disagree with your reasoning.

Which post, Rach?

[RedCoyote]

See: 156. Rach asked me to make that post for her and I doubt she read it. Perhaps you will.

I read it, I just do not agree with it. I still have Infin as a town read. I just would think if he were scum here, he would be laying a lot lower and trying to appear townie, not taking charge like he has, and I feel xyz is scummy.

Here Red

I mean before I called you out, hon.

[RedCoyote]

Sorry, I've been totally swamped with work and moving. It's completely sapped my energy for Mafia.

[RedCoyote]

Shadow Step dropped out of my lynch pool because, after speaking with him, I came to understand his tne wagon better and respected his aggression as more focused that I had previously assumed.

[RedCoyote]

That sounds pretty reasonable, I could vote TNE from what I have read, though I want to discuss and interact with everyone more and don't want to put her at L-1 right now.

Town shouldn't be scared of putting a scum read on L-1.

VOTE: FA

Re-reading over some of the end of yesterday trying to wrap my head around why Shadow was killed instead of xyzzy, and this is the best motive I can come up with so far. Anyone else have a theory?

[RedCoyote]

I'll come back in a day or so, hopefully things are going better then

RC

- If you feel your theory on shadow's NK is sound, what reason do you have for not voting FA yet?

I'm considering it. I'm also concerned about Rach. NM hasn't brought as much to the table as I'd have hoped either. 421 and 419 read a bit concocted.

[RedCoyote]

Not necessarily, but that doesn't mean I like his defeatist attitude, nor do I like the hammer.

I am also hoping that, if we do go into rarefaction, that you are in a cell separate from notmafia because I don't think I can take you continuously tunneling him for "hammering tne" the way he did even though you know people have done it before as town, and that town have gambited the way he has.

I'm also pretty upset that the hammer had happened while I was busy and didn't get a chance to interact with people this day phase

Maybe I am wrong on Marangal.
Meh.

I don't feel like hunting much. Its:
VOTE: Shaddowez

You literally just got through telling us that you'd self-hammer if we didn't vote Rach.

[RedCoyote]

I can't tell who is worse between NM and Fire and their gratuitous flip-flopping. I kind of think they'd both be scum if NM wasn't voting Fire.

[RedCoyote]

I actually am trying. I had a few days where I was busy with work, but I am trying desperately to think objectively about your roleslot vis-a-vis the nightkill. No one has obliged me except for Rach and her agreeing with me.

[RedCoyote]

Also, you aren't going to self-hammer. You're not in a bad enough position as scum to do it, and you'd have more scruples as town. Grow a pair and sell me on someone else.

[RedCoyote]

VOTE: shadowez

NM could've voted Shadow. Why didn't he?

[RedCoyote]

Also, no one "wants" you to self-hammer, so you can't use that as a defense of NM. Regardless of alignment.

[RedCoyote]

Good for you, here's your medal.

[RedCoyote]

You literally just called him "strangely town" and stuck up for him to my dislike of his vote hopping. Are you just annoying me out of spite?

[RedCoyote]

What's frustrating me is there's a little man in the back of my head that hated... HATED Infinity in this game earlier. Like, I was literally the only one fighting for that lynch yesterday. I just don't get why you wouldn't appeal to that. Town or scum Fire. It's frustrating and it's making it hard for me to read you objectively.

[RedCoyote]

I have no townreads in this game aside from xyzzy. This really sucks.

[RedCoyote]

I'm going to step back from this game because the town has the luxury of time at this point, but y'all know where I stand.

[RedCoyote]

As I said, you won't. I'm confident enough in that to forego voting at this time.

[RedCoyote]

Scum only have to have one left alive in rarefaction to win, but not killing xy (assuming he's the IC) almost guarantees we get one of the scum. If anything, don't you think it more likely that the Shadow NK was a ploy to frame FA? (granted, that could lead to a whole lot of WIFOM). I just find it highly unlikely scum would do something that blatant leaving a claimed IC alive.

This is a copout argument and you know it. Why do you and Fire insist on sticking up for one another with so little ground to stand on? The only thing holding me back at this point is that the conclusions I'm drawing seem too obvious to be real.

[RedCoyote]

VOTE: Rach_Marie

I gave scum plenty of time to hammer me, but they were cowards.
I am 99% likely still going to be lynched, but hey I gave scum an even easier win.

Atta boy. This post reads more town than anything else I've seen from you today.

Is Rach the only scum on your wagon?

[RedCoyote]

No, it's not specific to you necessarily. I think him voting anyone besides himself is more town that voting himself. I'm just trying to get a sense about him before I vote. As I said earlier, we have time, so there's no sense to have this sort of defeatist, "woe is me, let me just hammer myself ;_;" attitude. That doesn't help the town at all.

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: than

[RedCoyote]

Back. Was out of town last weekend, but I am home and Comcast is finally stable as of this morning. Checking out the thread now.

[RedCoyote]

Okay, so should we focus on our (xyzzy, myself and MM) cell today? I'm thinking that's our best shot at hitting scum. I'm going to try and not even worry about the second cell for now and just focus entirely on selling MMscum here.

Let me start off by saying that I'm a upset that MM hammered FA when she did. We still had time to deliberate and I wanted to engage other players more. I was coming around to a townFA stance despite feeling very confident he was scum at the start of D2. I said at least twice that we had time to keep talking and we shouldn't feel rushed into lynching FA (or anyone) until we had discussed it thoroughly. Especially given that xyzzy claimed early on, I think the town needed to use up as much time as it could so that scum would be forced to vote/unvote/make alliances/etc. I take some blame for not having enough presence as I should've, but yesterday I really wanted to start a Rach wagon and see how that turned out with NM and MM. If I had to guess right now, I'd slightly prefer Rach/MM over NM/MM just because NM has actually shown a little reluctance at pushing FA yesterday, whereas Rach seemed overly confident the entire day. Then again, that may mean exactly the opposite. Thankfully, I don't think we should or have to flesh that out right now.

I just saw xyzzy's post 538. This is a fair point. I mean, we needn't get too bogged down with this. Either we make the "harder" choice first to get it out of the way, or we save it for D4 so that we have better odds of hitting scum today. I personally think it's better to go for the "easier" choice first just because I'd kick myself more if we were wrong about the second cell than the other way around, but it's not a huge deal, ultimately. Additionally, I use the terms harder and easier just to convey the odds, not necessarily because I think I'm obvtown or MM is obvscum.

[RedCoyote]

I'd like to see xyzzy and MM in here, yes.

[RedCoyote]

I found this pretty interesting in the sense that, I could not, for the life of me, figure out why scum would allow the ic to be in rarefaction when they had the chance to get rid of him N1 and not opt to have both cells each with three unconfirmed alignments and Im thinking that over confident scum could be a reason

Yeah, but you have to believe this given your position.

I'm knowingly declining to vote you at this point in time because I'd like to discuss with xyzzy (and everyone, frankly) which option is best. I'd just as soon as be done with it and take MM on today, but I see the rationale for going for the other cell, too. I don't really care all that much, but I don't want to waste energy arguing MM if xyzzy up and votes someone from the other cell.

What the hell, you, too, MM. Did you want to go for me vs you now or go for the other cell and why? Your vote notwithstanding.

[RedCoyote]

Oh, I didn't realize that.

VOTE: Ms Marangal

[RedCoyote]

the fact that RedCoyote allegedly didn't realize that we could only vote within our own cells feels potentially fake, but it's possible I'm just being paranoid.

I've only played Rarefaction once, and I was killed on N1. This shouldn't be alignment indictive one way or the other.

[RedCoyote]

You know, I can't do a damn thing with the other cell if the other cell ain't doing shit

This. Really, I'm just waiting for xyzzy. I have opinions about that cell, but I've already made them known.

[RedCoyote]

I feel like shaddowez can be treated as confirmed town, because there's no reason for scum shaddowez to not just hammer and win. I feel like out of RachMarie and Not_Mafia that RachMarie is more likely to be scum. I feel like out of Ms Marangel and RedCoyote, RedCoyote is more likely to be a scum partner with RachMarie. if I had to vote for someone immediately, it would be RedCoyote. I'd prefer to hear what others have to say first, though.

Well, I certainly disagree with that. Would you like me to make a case against MM? I don't mind giving my opinion on her or on the other cell; I'm moreso waiting for what you have to say. I maintain that our best bet today would be lynching MM, but I recognize my thinking is coming from a position of bias.

In any event, let me know if you want me to chime in about anything vis-a-vis ping-ponging opinions back and forth.

[RedCoyote]

Oh, crap. I could've sworn this game ended. I swear I read a game over post. I think I got his mixed up with another ongoing game, or maybe it was a newbie game I was reading with MM in it to try and pick up on some meta. I was waiting for xyzzy to do something and just forgot. Let me go back over MM's posts (for real this time).

[RedCoyote]

I'm going to ISO shotty/NM/MM and look for any connections between the two slots. I'll spare the game any trivial arguments over what "sounds" town or scum. There's not sense in doing that. Hopefully y'all, like myself, are more interested in connecting the scumpartners as that is something concrete and rational we can do to try and figure out the last scum. It goes without saying that I'm bias. xyzzy is a big boy and knows that. He should consider everything I say through that lens and go back to verify all the points I'm making here. I do not want these points to just be accepted at face value, and I'm glad to argue any of them with either him or MM. That said...

---

To start, WIFOM says that shotty/myself don't make sense as partners early on (see: 20, 23, 26 and 28). Not the kind of banter scumpartners generally go through. Also notice how quickly shotty jumped aboard the Kappy wagon. It's clear here he was trying to buddy me now. He laid no groundwork for getting on Kappy, and Kappy hadn't made but two posts.

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RC|MM
00|01

Here's a juicy one: shotty leaves the Kappy wagon before anything happens with his vote to join the Rach wagon. Okay, a little weird at the time, but that was a scummy move in retrospect. Who else pads the wagon? MM comes right up behind him (104). They both uselessly sit on this wagon, trying to stir it up, until realizing a few pages later that it isn't going anywhere. It's not a smoking gun or anything, but this explains why shotty jumped off the Kappy wagon when he did for no reason. Additionally, it ties the two player slots together. When you have two unexplained votes on the same person, there's probably more to it than just happenstance.

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RC|MM
00|02

TNE, you should know better, don't avoid my interactions with you.

This feels like coaching

Throwaway attack that shotty never followed up on. Weak distancing. This post only exists so that shotty could go back later and say, "oh, yeah, I suspected MM this whole game ".

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RC|MM
00|03

What you're saying is that I'm not writing well? Ok, how does that make me scum? How does that relate to what you said earlier about me being disengaged?

Yo are completely misrepping here. No one attacking you personally. This is an awful reaction to someone calling you scum. RC didn't make it personal you just did.

I can't not comment on this. This looks like a chainsaw. shotty defending me out of the blue here felt awkward at the time, but I didn't want to make a thing about it because I thought he was town at this point (see also: 163, 165).

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RC|MM
01|03

VOTE: infinity

Note how not long after shotty gets through attacking Infinity, MM has a naked vote. Coincidence? Smells a lot like the Rach vote from earlier, too. Granted, MM said early that she was leaning scum on Infinity, but she waited until shotty attacked him to move her vote off of Rach.

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RC|MM
01|04

I missed that Mara? uggh I need to reread already I see,


Still it does not feel like your scum game, I know you hate it when I bring up that game but you definitely are playing more like your usual towny self here.

Continuously saying this is unproductive, and I wish nacho was here to tell you that this isn't out of reach for my scum game. I would prefer you have in game reasons to town read me here over meta. Yeah, in the past I would get upset over meta calls because I had, and still do have, alot of pride over being able to make my scum and town meta unanimous enough where it's difficult to tell it apart. Even nacho isn't able to perfectly read me, even now and he know me better than anyone else on site.

And, in other note, I'm uncomfortable with your current vote. I read your reasons and understand them, but again is failing to see other people are doing the exact same thing as not mafia, and im inclined to think you've gone a little tunnely.

Im also inclined to think that his more trollish entrance is more inclined towards town vs scum especially with how late in the game it had ended up. To me, it read that he was getting into the game (or more accurately attempting so) without being fully knowledgeable of what's going on. That's more indicative as town to be because scum tend to want to be more consientious of the lies his predecessor may have been weaving thus, being more conscientiousness of the game that has been going on

This is probably MM's towniest post this game. She deserves credit for this, and I'm not afraid to point it out. I especially like that she tells Rach straight up that she could be scum this game. This is a ballsy comment.

I won't give myself a point (it's not even really worth scoring because anyone can say, "oh, that post

sounds

scum/town" ... I'm looking for actual, real connections with the shotty/NM slot) because I think the weight of my town-posts surpasses hers, but it's worth highlighting.

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RC|MM
01|04

Okay I'm ready VOTE: Fire

VOTE: fire assassin

If there is a smoking gun, this is it. If you read no other point I make today, xyzzy, please consider this one thoughtfully. This was an extremely poor lynch. MM felt very safe to hammer FA here despite the fact that I clearly asked for everyone to slow down. There was still a week left until the deadline, and I had serious, serious misgivings about FA being scum (hence the reason I was not voting, see: 512). The motivating factor for hurrying the game along? Scum saw their window of opportunity closing here. FA unvoted himself (NM was openly taking advantage of this, see: 494), and NM brazenly took his place. MM immediately lynched him before anyone could say anything. She felt safe enough that she wasn't being scumread to do this. This falls perfectly into place with the xyzzy non-kill as well. MM has struck me as very confident all game, same with NM. Neither of them showed any fear to move their votes around willy-nilly or openly chastize others.

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RC|MM
01|05

I am also completely convinced that it's shadow/infinity slot for the other scum and i have no faith in even winning this because rach is just tunnel crazy even though nm posts don't make any sense coming from a scum perspective.

Overt defense of NM. Again, this falls into the pattern of overconfidence in winning this game. This fits with the kills, this fits with her voting pattern, and this fits with the FA lynch. Nearly all intelligent signs in the relationship between the sotty/NM slot and the MM slot point to a partnership.

By contrast, I did not defend NM. I never cared for him when he replaced in, but I very much suspected him in that cell after the horrible FA lynch.

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RC|MM
01|06

I found this pretty interesting in the sense that, I could not, for the life of me, figure out why scum would allow the ic to be in rarefaction when they had the chance to get rid of him N1 and not opt to have both cells each with three unconfirmed alignments and Im thinking that over confident scum could be a reason

I think so, too. Very clever way of playing dumb when it's obvious that you've been the most confident player here, short of possibly Shadow.

No point as there's no connection to shotty/NM here, but I just found this comment noteworthy.

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RC|MM
01|06

I'm leaning towards NM as the scum in the other cell.

I dont like either as scum, but NM makes more sense I think

Odd, inexplicable post from town. As town, how could you go from "I'm completely convinced it's shadow" to "NM makes more sense" without backing it up? As a partner of NM, this post makes sense as a throwaway distancing post right before the shadow vote. See, because, if you're scum, it's a win/win. If shadow picks wrong, you lose and it doesn't matter that you make this post. If he picks right, you'll have gotten credit for making this "call". If you were town, you'd necessarily be more reluctant to make a comment like this.

In any event, this, again, plays into the pattern of overconfidence. Overconfidence = bussing your partner at the last minute without anything to back up the reason for changing your mind.

Code: Select all

RC|MM
01|07

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In summary, I see 7 clear points of connection here between MM and the shotty/NM slot this game, in retrospect. I see 1 clear point of connection between myself and the same slot. I hope all these points are thoroughly considered before any vote is cast. I'd be happy to debate any of them.

[RedCoyote]

VOTE: Ms Marangal

[RedCoyote]

As far as the more nebulous points go, I think, overall, my posts are overall "more town" than MM's posts. This is highly subjective, and you could lean either way depending on what playstyles you like. I would consider strongly shadow/Rach's opinions on this. Rach especially as I know both myself and MM have played several games with Rach. If you want a meta argument, Rach is a good player to ask for that.

Activity-wise, this is kind of another subjective thing. I dropped the ball this last week. Mea culpa. I did think this game had ended. I was busy with Clash of the Mash, too. That said, I have more posts than MM, not that that really means anything. I think I have more content than her in those posts, but that's something else that's kind of in subjective territory depending on how much you value posts like X rather than Y, etc.

As far as what your heart says, that I cannot speak to. I know you've made it clear you suspect me, xyzzy, and I'm sorry to hear that. I would argue that I think that response is more based in emotion than rationality, but I also know I haven't been quite as active as I like. I'm generally not the best town player, frankly. On a personal level, I play better as scum. I feel more involved in the game and less ancillary to the game's outcome.

But now that I've said my piece, even if you vote me now, I am satisfied with the game. I wouldn't have done anything different this game short of post more and just be more aware of the game itself.

[RedCoyote]

Objectively, MM has had less posts than I have, so "less interactions" is a bit silly. I had numerous exchanges with that player slot, but most of my interaction came from a perspective of skepticism, especially right before the split. Once the split happened, I had less incentive to interact with him.

But there's not much I can do with your "feelings" overall. I tried to present things as logical as I could. I get the sense we don't have very similar playstyles. I wish I had have drawn scum this game, as I'm much better at manipulating players' feelings as scum than I am as town.

The "numerical score" is fairly redundant and just serves as a tool to better organize my case against MM. It's completely unnecessary to the actual argument and can be ignored. The jist of the overall post being that the case can be made much more strongly in favor of a MM/NM scumteam than an RC/NM scumteam.

[RedCoyote]

I feel like most...

I feel like a lot...

I feel like we're going to lose.

[RedCoyote]

MM, why didn't you address your FA hammer in 617? I think that's the strongest argument in favor of you being scum this game, and, were I xyzzy, that would be the number one thing to influence my vote.

You now say you weren't confident at all this game, but I think a lot of your votes and your posts tell a different story.

[RedCoyote]

I would probably try and make up some bullshit on why you were scum, for one instead of resorting to just getting attacked and defending myself.

Yeah, I've tried that tactic before, too. I don't blame you, you're sitting on the advantage. xyzzy has already said he's leaning toward voting me, so I'd do the same thing. Sit back and let the other person try hard so that I appear desperate.

[RedCoyote]

At the risk of further alienating xyzzy, I just want to add one other thing. It's really unfortunate that we're in this "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

I really dislike the fact that RedCoyote made no attempt to defend himself or say anything substantial about Ms Marangel.

RC kind of disappearing has me concerned.

...Cue 613...

I feel like a lot of RedCoyote's points can be summed up as "I had fewer scummy interactions with shotty/N_M" when really it feels like he's just had fewer interactions at all, which isn't great. I feel like some of the arguments regarding Ms Marangel's interactions with shotty/N_M are a little weak, and he even leans a lot on times when she wasn't explicitly interacting with him. I'm also really just not super into the idea of just giving a numerical score to how many scummy things people have done, because that's not very nuanced and leaves a lot of room for deliberately inserting flaws into the argument.

Yeah, I think I'm leaning RC

I just want to air my frustration before the game is over. There's nothing quite as perturbing as, "he's not posting, that's really scummy" and then "okay, you're posting, you're still scummy". I'm not trying to browbeat you into voting MM, but, it's like... I wish you'd have just either voted me earlier or been honest with me insomuch as it didn't really matter whether I was active or not. I can appreciate you're torn over the decision, xyzzy, but this really comes off as invalidating. There's clearly nothing I can change about feelings if that's what the game is going to boil down to. I don't know a way to make this post without it being seen as either manipulative or sore or both (which truly isn't my intention, I'm trying to be matter-of-fact), but this day could've been handled differently.

[RedCoyote]

If you truly wanted this to be not-game related, why wouldn't you wait until game end to bring it up?

I am interpreting this as, "just shut up until the game is over". I'm sure it would be easier for everyone if I just sat quietly and resigned to not trying (despite the fact that when I wasn't posting, I was criticized), but if I have a chance of influencing xyzzy to vote MM, why shouldn't I do that?

've been reading and rereading for interactions and tells, and going back and forth between you and MM. Therefore, the "damned if I do, damned if I don't" mentality is completely bogus.

That may be true, but I wouldn't know it to look at your posting today. There's been little attempt made to dispute the arguments I've made beyond what feelings they've provoked.

2) You cherry picked the quotes you used. MM also posted in there, so her posts were used in determining reads as well. While ISOs are extremely useful, players do not exist in a vacuum.

Of course I cherry picked quotes. I'm attempting to paint a picture of MM as scum as efficently as possible, not to give an unbiased summary of what happened this game. It's incumbent upon others, namely xyzzy, to assess whether or not those arguments are sincere.

In other words, in our specific circumstances, xyzzy is more or less the judge and MM and I are opposing attorneys. It's not my job to show MM in a good light here, shaddowez.

3) I'm not sure how you can say in the same paragraph that you're airing frustration and don't want the post to come out as sore. As I said earlier, if this is real I'm sorry you feel that way, but that's like starting a sentence with "I don't mean to offend you, but..."

Well, this goes back to what I said earlier in this post. I'm sure it would be much easier on you and xyzzy if I were just to shut up and accept whatever fate came down. I owe it to the game to continue to speak my mind, regardless of how uncomfortable it may make you. That said, I have to acknowledge the reality that there's a good chance it'll come across as soreness, so I'm obliged to qualify my post.

[RedCoyote]

gg all, gj town. Thanks for modding, E.

Yeah, both NM and myself missed the IC claim. D'oh!

[RedCoyote]

I think Shadow was just coming around as a strong voice in the town. I had forgot that xyzzy had claimed IC though. My mind was on other things and I was kind of checked out during N1. At the time, I saw Shadow as the biggest town threat.