Micro 629 - The Arena - Game Over

[MagnaofIllusion]

So the game is afoot ...

MapWolf - give us your best guess as to why you were chosen for the Day 1 honor of Gladiator.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Assuming no alts/other sites i don't know about:
Mapwolf hasn't played a game with any of us before (based on completed games).
Mapwolf is the second least experienced player in the game.
Waiting until mapwolf posts before any other comments on him.

Damn it Hopkirk the whole point was to get Mapwolf's un-adulterated take ...



Way to screw that up.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Mapwolf already knows that information. How could it affect his responses.

That's not the point. Of course he knew this. But how he would have chosen to respond without this information already presented might have given an insight into his alignment. But it required no-one priming the pump as they say.

Might not amounted to anything. But might have. No way to tell now.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’ll be V/LA starting for the weekend starting Friday at 5 but I think there should be sufficient time to get even a cursory read off what little posting we have to make my suggestion to Map.

I would've picked randomly if i was mafia. That is my best guess since they picked it so fast. Another possibility is that they picked me because i haven't gotten as many completed games, so i would be an easy early lynch.

Based on your later responses – do you think scum would continue to pick randomly so nothing could be read into the Gladiator choice?

How he responds to me saying that would also be relevant. Pointing it out is very similar to what you're complaining about now.

If you say so. Personally I don’t think after you undercut the original line of questioning there would be much fruit to be gained but that’s me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from today at 5pm EDT until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

VOTE: Dunn

His entrance pings me. 41 for example is an odd stance to take. Vedith is correct to not immediately take Map as Town just for his initial response and being selected. And there is some inconsistent logic in his posting .

@Dunn

– why do your claim Map is mostly likely Town while suggesting his play could be advantageous to scum.

Personally I like Vedith for Town and am still weighing Map.

---

It is a possible strategy, but it really depends on which scum we are dealing with, which of course is impossible to tell.

Why do you think it is a viable strategy after reads have been developed? Being in a no Nightkill game means the Mafia will be working extra-hard on Dayplay and just randomly selecting after suspicions and posts to analyze seems pretty foolish to me.

--

Nobody played with him before is an obvious point. As is that he's new.
I like Map Wolf since he mentioned something (albeit flawed) that i hadn't mentioned when he could easily have just said 'new so easier lynch and nobody's played with me'.

Yes, and you per-emptively pointing those facts out in an effect coached him to not just drop that response. Do you not see this is why I was not happy in the first place? Yes, there was a possibility if he was scum that he'd have been coached up pre-game but that doesn't mean it absolutely happened.

Good point, i was overlooking a partner telling him what to say.

Did you not actively read the rules of this game while it was in Pre-game?

--

For example, the only player I have any kind of meta with in this game is Magna.

Reading this I did a double take. I didn’t recall you ever being in a completed game with me. So I dived into your thread history to look at your topics and found this.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=18300

That’s the only game I could find.

1. Did you do pre-game research on player history yourself?
2. What sort of meta would you suggest a Large game that you replaced out of with a whopping 34 posts would indicate?
3. Did you expect I would remember you from said game that ended almost 5 years ago?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I can't see anywhere where mapwolf has really commented on other players/given reads yet.
This is different to previously (viewtopic.php?p=8025831&user_select%5B%5D=28042#p8025831), see for example page four, post 87. This does feel potentially like a vote is being held to avoid being heavily involved/ happening instead of scumhunting.

So this looks like you are wanting a meta-read of MapWolf. In that case did you do a similar read for his completed Scum game?

Here’s the link –

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=67479

What is your assessment of that game’s play compared to the Newbie you linked?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I didn't read the entire newbie game, just his early posts so it's not a fully meta analysis. What i'm saying is that he's doing something (votecounts) which aren't really meaningful but make it look like he's forming reads instead of forming those reads. I know he makes reads as mafia in that game you linked, but its different here where its advantageous not to as mafia (not make enemies when you're 1/2 lynch targets, disassociate from choices, and not needing to fake scumhunt) whereas its not advantageous as town.

How does him doing pseudo Vote Counts in any way make it look like he is forming reads? In my mind it is the opposite – clearly those PVCs don’t provide content. I also don’t see it as very advantageous for him as Mafia to do what you are claiming he is doing as he’s one of the necks on the line once a target is chosen. If his play at this stage is clearly Pro-Mafia he strongly runs the risk of losing the 1v1 with whoever he chooses.

I’m not suggesting that Map’s play should not be scrutinized. I think it should. But I think when at least 2 people haven’t even posted yet jumping to “he’s not providing solid reads” is a little premature.

--

Dunn is reading as town to me.

Please elaborate as I am not seeing Town from Dunn.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Because he is and it is

The depth of your response is impressive ...

Despite that I think my vote is well placed.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Back from V/LA

To those not in the know – 1234 is Ircher. I would have thought anyone who bothered to read the Micro Sign-up thread would have seen this page (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=475 ) and known who 1234 is. He can’t have seriously wanted secrecy signing up in that manner.

Map’s posting since being called out as not actually providing content has been interesting. While ostensibly giving content we see posts like 78, 93 and 109 in which he pretty much waffles on any actual reads. Overall Map’s posting looks more interested in appearing Town as opposed to actively scum-hunting (his repeated “Yeah, my posting was sorta scummy” posts are what stick out to me”).

1234 on the other hand doesn’t fare much better. I agree with him from the standpoint that his “supposed” Townslip is absolutely NAI and don’t see any reason to scum-read him for it. He does accelerate his posting and content after the challenge. On the other hand we have posts like 140 which is pure IIoA.

@1234

– is Map scum or not?

--

Karnos’s 82 feels a little like scum-plaining to me if MapWolf is Town …

@Leon

– so your entire reason for selecting 1234 as Gladiate target was to motivate him to do something?

Dunn is still scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

No, I'm simply trying to find the silver lining in what I consider a mistake.

Both lurkers would be good gladiates for D2.

Why do you consider it a mistake then? I’d like you to explain why you were so set on 1234 pre-Gladiate and right after Map made the vote. What let you to consider him scum in your mind?

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Wolf

@Mod

You don't have a vote 1234. Neither does Map. Part of the set-up.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@karnos

– So your stance is that giving any reads helps scum to select the players who best serve as Gladiators? I wonder why you don’t consider that said target would consider the implication of being targeted after giving reads. Why is that?

--

If Powerdown gets replaced (which is looking likely) I would hope we would get at least a 24-48 hour extension to get some content from the slot.

[MagnaofIllusion]

1: No. My stance is that giving reads on players who are not votable (anyone but Map Wolf or 123456789) helps scum select a gladiator without benefiting town, but giving reads on 123456789 or Map Wolf is certainly useful.

2: Are you saying a town player could give fake reads on a player so the gladiator is chosen based on false info? Sure, they could, but it's also likely to confuse the hell out of other town and make the townie in question look very scummy when their inconsistent reads are revealed.

I disagree. In fact the having those reads on record is another scum-hunting tool. For example - say I strongly read Player X (who is not involved in the Current Gladiation) as scum. I am chosen as the next Gladiator. This fact alone provides us with more information about who the scum want dead (and thus are not them). Now there are given WIFOM factors but this set-up lacks a Nightkill so relational tells are even more important.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Sure, they could, but it's also likely to confuse the hell out of other town and make the townie in question look very scummy when their inconsistent reads are revealed.

So is it your stance that having changing reads is scummy? I want to be clear as I have a followup question for you if it is.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Can we no lynch?

Do you not read the rules? We no lynch and scum gets to choose a death of their choice. Not very Pro-Town ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Dunn's last three posts, all tunneling the lurker.

Actually tunneling a newb with 3 total posts on MS who obviously site flaked. Scum looking for an easy Town mislynch ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why am I suddenly scum

It's not sudden - you've had your role PM all game. Vedith is just now twigging to your scumminess.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’m leaning towards voting MapWolf myself. 1234’s reaction to Frog does feel a little out of proportion and I agree with frog’s response regarding him “death-tunneling”. On the other hand MapWolf looks to basically be actively lurking. He’s basically at L-1 and as Town should be laying down thoughts on the rest of the playerlist. Yet he’s simply popping in to make small comments. Looks like he’s minimizing his footprint which would make sense as possible scum wanting to leave as little trail about who his partner is.

@MapWolf

– why are you not giving full reads at this point?

--

Frog’s reads post is interesting. Frog please elaborate on the following –

Do you find Dunn’s focus on getting your slot chosen tomorrow to be Town oriented thinking?

What do you think of both Dunn and karnos saying “If I were scum I would do the following”?

Why do you find Map’s “Psuedo-Vote” to be Towny specifically? I can’t see any reason why that specific act isn’t NAI.

You have Vedith and 1234 as partners. Do you believe that Vedith would help make his partner a viable wagon ( 107 ) when he could have pushed with me on Dunn instead?

--

Why am I suddenly scum

If it wasn’t clear from my quick phone post the other day this is a “Why Me, Fry Me” scum post from Dunn. He’s too worried about being called scum by multiple players (myself and Vedith).

His appeal at 220 is indicative of this.

@Vedith

– do you have a history of working together with Dunn in games as Town?

--

This is mafiascum meta 101, one of the common scumtells is catching someone going from scum reading to town reading someone spontaneously for no reason, or vice-versa.

Yes but that assumes there is no justification for the change. What you are suggesting is not being on record at all which seems mostly motivated to prevent being called out as scum for changing reads IMO.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Riiight

Huge overreaction and you can die now

It must pain you that you don’t have a Nightkill to make it easy to get rid of pesky Town who suspect you …

Leonshade's changing reads on me doesn't make any sense either and I am more suspicious of him for doing that.

Frog looks better than his predecessor

Literally this is textbook Cognitive Dissonance at work.

Leon changing his read on Dunn? Suspicious.

Dunn changing his read on Frog’s slot? I’m guessing it is supposed to be not suspicious.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I wanted the lurker lynched because he lurked through the 3 day phase past the point where the gladiate is chosen (and karnos wasn't necessarily suspicious for me at the time)

Don't know how that's "Cognitive Dissonance"

So you thought that him lurking through that period was Alignment Indicative. If you truly thought that Frog replacing in and being active doesn’t change that fact that you would think he had a scum role PM.

Unless of course you were stating you’d rather Policy someone in which case you choosing to policy the newb flaker seems pretty suspect to me.

It’s Cognitive Dissonance because you are attacking Leon for making a read change that in your words “doesn’t make sense” while making a read change on Frog that doesn’t make sense from a Town perspective.

Of course I'm not worried about convincing you that you have a scum role PM. I just everyone else (except your partner, natch) to see it.

Trying to do... what? To who?

Don’t play stupid. You were pushing for Frog’s slot to be auto-Gladiated Day 2. Don’t pretend you weren’t.

Again, when did I say this

Pretty easy to find …

If I were mafia I'd have picked myself as the gladiator; go big or go home

[MagnaofIllusion]

"I was LYING about my reads, that is why they changed!"

I suppose that doesn't sound scummy at all to you? I mean, if I was playing with clones of myself, I'd expect myself to understand the town motivation, but there are a lot of players on mafiascum who play more from emotion than logic, and emotions tend to run hot when lying is involved.

You are sidelining with this - no-one has ever advocated Town lying about their reads so the whole follow-through you have going here is an exercise in arguing a point not made.

Again - the fact that a Town player gives reads of Player X as scum and Player Y as Town and then gets chosen as the Gladiator the next day should instruct them to reconsider those reads before making a Gladiate decision.

All your "I'm not giving reads it helps scum" stance seems to be doing is looking to protect yourself from potential scrutiny down the line about potential read flips on players not Map or 1234.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You are acting like there is some possible alternative. Someone is going to be picked as a gladiator, that is certain. If that is going to trigger a reevaluation of all of everyone's reads, then what is the point of sharing reads now at all anyway?

What is the point of Town not sharing reads? Town wins Mafia games by sharing information with fellow Town in a clear and straight-forward manner. You've moved the goalposts here from "Scum get a roadmap of who to choose" to "Well, Town players will re-evaluate if chosen Gladiator so why share".

[MagnaofIllusion]

You are arguing in circles. Scum picks the gladiator after this day ends. They can use the information they have to make that pick. If every townie spilled guts honestly and told scum exactly who they find scummy and who they find townie, scum could easily select the most scum read town player as gladiator as an easy miss lynch.

You case for not sharing reads is predicated on a number of false premises.

1. That the most scum read player isn't scum themselves.
2. That players are unable to alter their play to adjust for scum picking a scummy Town player and immediately proceed to mislynch them automatically.

You can post in all the bold, colored, italicized or gussied up font however you want. That doesn't change the fact that the act of scum choosing the Gladiator for the day is more information for Town to analyze in looking for who is scum. Yet you want to make sure Town has the bare minimum of information which is at best an Anti-Town practice.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey Mapwolf - several players have indicated you are likely to be hammered soon.

Give us your parting reads on players ASAP please.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@frog

– I’d love to see your answers to my questions in 232 please.

@karnos

– I’d be very curious why you chose Leon over Dunn.

--

So a couple of items from Day 1 that I didn’t get a chance to follow up on then.

WTF dude. If town followed my advice, that wouldn't be a concern at all because SCUM WOULDN'T KNOW the most scum read player. You are pointing out a flaw in the idea of sharing all reads, not a flaw in my argument. Your argument seems to be 'maybe scum won't use the info to their advantage'. That is a really stupid way to play. If we can prevent scum from having that information at all, that is vastly superior to the idea that we hand them everything on a platter and hope they don't take advantage of it.

I can’t begin to fathom how this is a response that comes from Town.

My argument is that “scum won’t use info to their advantage”. My argument is that Town NEED information to help get reads and form assessments of alignment. So either you are scum trying to twist things around or your reading comprehension skills are lower than my impression of them was.

You stance is “Never give any reads on non Gladiators because it gives scum more info”. That’s stupid because it absolutely robs Town of any information also. Are you seriously positing that Town can’t determine from how players provide (or in your case, refuse to provide) reads who is scum? If so then you need to go play at EM where it is “Follow the Cop” then.

Again, WTF is the goal here? To me this is like arguing that town can win from LYLO, so we might as well just lynch town players on the first few days. Yes, town might be smart enough to pick a scum DESPITE giving scum critical information for zero benefit, that doesn't make it a smart strategy.

This is a scummy as fuck also. My argument is in no way what you are describing here.

And Town freely sharing their reads doesn’t provide Town zero benefits and your peddling of it is either scummy or stupid. I don’t think you are stupid so I’m inclined to think scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You first.

Why me?

VOTE: karnos

Nope. You don't get to have that scummy "Don't share reads" stance from Day 1 and then not be EXPLICITLY CLEAR on your reasoning for what you did.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yesterday he said he would pick me. Amazingly, look who the scum picked: me. Therefore he is scum.

So here’s my problem – this is such simplistic logic I don’t believe it is your reasoning.

You think that Leon as scum would come right out in thread and give you a road map for hypoTown you to challenge him as scum by claiming you’d make a good Day 2 Gladiate target?

--

I think it can be town oriented thinking, yes. Wanting a slot chosen is not the same as wanting them lynched, and with only seven days in the Day activity is more important than the usual game. What Dunnstral was doing, in my view, was trying to make sure an inactive player started to engage with the game by exerting some pressure (his vote came so close to 'deadline' that I doubt my predecessor was ever in serious danger of being selected). Dunnstral changing his read on my slot I can't view as suspicious, as you claim it to be, because my predecessor only had one post, and that was a prod dodge.

I disagree in that his voting didn’t provoke a low performing slot to engage. In fact Powerdown pretty clearly had a high percentage chance to flake given his absolute newness. I think Dunn is experienced enough to have recognized that fact. Which is why the pressure on an empty slot reads scummy to me – in a short deadline game like this on it could be an easy Gladiate mislynch.

The pseudo-vote struck me as an immediately sensible idea, handing back control to the town. Contrary to what others have expressed I do not think it would have been scummy for Map Wolf to have just decided who to target, nor was it 'safe' in hindsight as that formed part of the reason why he was lynched.

I’m not sure how this translates to Town for you. The reason Map got pressure and eventually lynched was not “handing the control back to Town” it was “handing the control to Town and then doing nothing to proactively find scum”.

--

Leon has a greater chacne of flipping scum.

Elaborate as to why. I don’t see it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why are you trying to use reads as a reason to vote me, when you should know that you ABSOLUTELY WITHOUT DOUBT are town as reason enough?

You do know that Leon doesn't have a vote, right? Just like you?

Frankly this sort of posting reads very much like "I need to find ways to make Leon look scummy" nitpicking.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Likely Scum (76%-100% Confidence)
Karnos (-90%) - Still pretty useless; has given reads but seem kinda weak. Possible lynchbait but WIFOM is in play.
Leon (-88%) - The backtrack still looks bad, but since I now know the gladiator was TvT, there is no longer a strong motive for such a flashy move.

Vedith made his response basically pure smart-ass but this bears follow-up.

You think the scum team went full WIFOM with the Day 2 Gladiator and Gladiate choice?

--

Because Karnos actually believes that what he is saying is right, when it's not.

Meh. I don’t think you have a direct ESP line to inside karnos’s noggin to know this as fact and disagree but knock yourself out pushing Leon.

--

Magna and vedith continue to randomly tunnel me

ITT we learn Dunn has no idea what tunneling actually means.

Pro-Tip : reading you as scum for your play isn’t tunneling.

What do you have to say for the fact that neither of us were chosen Gladiator when you were our number 1 targets going into Night 1?

[MagnaofIllusion]

That really is an excellent question.

Why do you think that was an excellent question?

You’ve already established that you think Leon is scum. And you claim you are Town. Leon’s question ostensibly points out what is a scummy position by Numbers.

Do you see it as viable for Scum 1234 to vote Scum Leon over Town you when he could use his claimed reads as justification to vote you instead?

My perspective was based on a flawed understand of the setup. I thought there was a thread-unlocked discussion period after gladiator is chosen, before he picks a target.

Then why didn’t you question the following comment that Leon made Day 1?

I am in favor of holding a vote, as this is the only time town will actually have full control over who gets picked

He clearly understood the situation and indicated that Dawn portion would not be discussion enabled.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Everyone not voting karnos (besides Dunn who is probably his partner) note my post in 332 and how karnos dodged the second question in his reply at 335. It is telling of his alignment that he specifically chose to avoid commenting on the fact that Leon had early on Day 1 clearly established that the Dawn period was a closed period since it implicates his backtrack today of his whole Day 1 stance.

@hopkirk

– if you are going to not quote but reference posts please use the [ post ]Number [ / post ] feature when doing so. Simply put the post number you want to reference in above and remove the spaces around post and /post. For example – [ post ]336[ /post ] becomes 336. It makes it much easier for other players to follow along with your assessments and logic.

--

VOTE: Leonshade

Scum vote …

--

Since 123456789 has now responded...

It's an excellent question for... the reason you gave. Leon was pointing out a potentially scum motivated vote from 123456789.

I think it's perfectly viable for scum 123456789 to vote town leon over town me while claiming to see me as the more likely scum, and then to flip things around after leon is lynched with some lame "oh, well we lynched the wrong guy i guess i was right in the first place, lets lynch karnos tomorrow".

Of course, this is a scummy read dependant on leon's flip. If leon is scum, then I would be much less likely to read 123456789 as scum.

So you were most certain Leon of all players was scum when you Gladiated but now are ready to start lining up lynches on others if Leon flips Town?

The amount of “Not coming from Town” in this response is making the EKG meter spin wildly.

More votes here please.

[MagnaofIllusion]

>how karnos dodged the second question in his reply at

How did I both dodge the question and then respond to it? Or are you calling your non-question statement "You’ve already established that you think Leon is scum. And you claim you are Town. Leon’s question ostensibly points out what is a scummy position by Numbers." A question? It doesn't logically follow that, in a single post, you complain about me dodging a question and then you quote my response to said question- it's like you just want to throw as much BS on the wall as you can to see what sticks, nevermind how flawed it is.

Nope. I am not going to let this lie fly. Here’s the question you avoided –

My perspective was based on a flawed understand of the setup. I thought there was a thread-unlocked discussion period after gladiator is chosen, before he picks a target.

Then why didn’t you question the following comment that Leon made Day 1?

I am in favor of holding a vote, as this is the only time town will actually have full control over who gets picked

He clearly understood the situation and indicated that Dawn portion would not be discussion enabled.

So who is the one misrepresenting again karnos? And why didn’t you answer it?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Okay. By "second question" you meant third question, and you also mysteriously quoted the rest of the post but you didn't quote the actual question you wanted me to answer, so how exactly was I supposed to know what you meant?

Um whut? I posted originally and you ignored the “last” (or whatever semantics game you want to play) question completely. Then I noted via the Post Number feature that you had dodged it. I didn’t use the quote feature so what are you trying to say? You look like you are spinning for anything you can throw up against the wall to stick to discredit my read on you.

As to the last part – I figured you were able to read the whole post and analyze for yourself what part you didn’t answer instead of having it spoonfed to you. My mistake …

I disagree with your assumption. "I am in favor of holding a vote, as this is the only time town will actually have full control over who gets picked" My initial understanding was he was saying the only time town will get control over who is picked is when town holds a vote. Obviously I see the other meaning now that you have pointed it out.

Keep in mind during that time I was on vacation reading the thread on my phone, I didn't have time individually respond to every post.

Again, what gibberish is this? Leonshade was the one who originally posted this and it was dead on accurate on like Page 3. Your “disagreement with my assumption” statement means nothing. I see your “I wasn’t reading carefully due to vacation” statement but that doesn’t really hold much water with me. Day 1 you were the only one who was insistent that your method was the correct way and everyone else was stupid. And Leon has specifically pointed out why your method didn't make sense. It never occurred to you that maybe since you were completely swimming upstream against everyone else’s assessment of Pro-Town play that your interpretation was incorrect?

Frankly your tone both yesterday and today is pretty off to my mind.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from 5pm EDT today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The deadline is at 15 August 9:15am EDT (UTC-4), or in 2 days, 16 hours, 30 minutes.

Keep in mind that we have basically til mid morning EDT Monday or scum gets a free kill.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yes, I would like to hear Frog's reasoning for choosing Vedith myself also.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Frog - what is your read on Dunn then?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I quite like Dunnstral for town.

I’m going to ask you to unpack that read then for me because I don’t see it myself.

--

VOTE: Vedith

So looking through your ISO I see you have expressed as scum lean on Vedith. You don’t seem to have expressed any read on Frog despite a large number of back and forths with him where you disagree with his stance on you.

Am I correct that you don’t have a Frog-scum read or your Frog scum read is substantially smaller than your Vedith scum read?

--

I do have actual thoughts, by the way

This is scum grandstanding right here.

Is frog your partner?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Mod I'll be V/LA from now until Tuesday morning

Via phone over the weekend I'll be re-reading. My gut says that I'll be voting Frog simply because he's a dead Null and his response on Dunn is lots of words that look pretty but mean zilch. But I want a full review before that happens.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yes please let me respond to Frog and lay out what I am seeing ... I'll do my best to get to it Monday.

[MagnaofIllusion]

If there is so little there, why not try your hand at deconstructing it? You may call it what you want, but the fact remains that there is more content there than has been produced by those who are so sure that Dunnstral is scum.

Now that I have some time I’ll lay out my Dunn case in full. Frankly there hasn’t been a huge need because shock of shocks – those players who suspect him haven’t been chosen as Gladiator.

--

So why Dunn is scum:

First of all the general tone of his ISO is that of scum cruising by … there isn’t any significant attempts to scum-hunt and lots of filler content. Look through his ISO yourself and decide if you disagree with my assessment.

My analysis of Dunn’s Day 1 play is exactly the opposite of Frog’s – it is very much busywork and taking safe stances as opposed to looking to sort people.

Exhibit A – 41 in which he is quick to call MapWolf Town when frankly I think making a solid read at that stage of the game is near impossible from MapWolf’s ISO to that stage. And there is no depth at all to support why … just MapWolf is “Townie and more likely to be Town”. I think this is further signified by his response to me at 73 when I asked him about the apparent disconnect between his MapWolf read and a statement he made that indicated MapWolf’s play would benefit scum. He doesn’t explain anything about why he draws a Town conclusion despite acknowledging that MapWolf’s play could come from scum. He just flatly states “He is and it is”. He knows that MapWolf is going to flip Town. This also is to me apparent from his early push on Vedith for suspecting Map. He’s making pre-flip based attack very early which Town shouldn’t so easily make.

Exhibit B – Empty questions that he never follows up on. Supposedly he suspects Vedith very early on. And we get the following from Dunn –

So do you suspect Leon?

Which Vedith responds to at 48 with “I’m waiting for Leon to come back”. Does Dunn ever follow up on this line of inquiry? Nope. Even after Leon returns to the thread there is nothing in Vedith’s ISO Day 1 or beyond that says that question was anything other than just fluff.

Exihibit C – His newb lurker attack on Frog’s slot (starting at 103). It isn’t scum-hunting as he admits it is pure policy (178) and the second Frog replaces in he 180s his stance (236). In fact the manner in which he retracts it is highly suspect –

Frog looks better than his predecessor

This is the quintessential empty statement – of course Frog looks better than his predecessor. Anyone does because his predecessor flaked out with zero content. Dunn again has no real reasoning to support his stances.

In fact reading through his Day 1 I see many points I made that show Frog’s stance of “No content made on why Dunn is scum” is false.

After Day 1 his ISO is filled with similar posts that don’t highlight a Town frame of mind. His attempts to suggest that anyone scum reading isn’t valid (302 is an example … both Vedith and I are just “randomly tunneling” him). He’s more worried about being perceived as Town as opposed to finding scum. Furthermore his stance on the Leon versus karnos Day shows the same lack of depth (aka superficial reads driven by knowing the alignment of those reads he is presenting) as shown at 346. 379 is another example – it is his first actual commitment to a scum read (note before this point all his suspicions were couched in “Player X is more likely to flip scum than Player Y) and even then he drops the softener “might” into play.

401 is yet another example of saying with no depth – no support for why Leon’s game has evolved in a scum manner just a simple statement. And then another self-preservation statement.

Today has been filled with fluff (419, 440). And this is not Town posting –

I do have actual thoughts, by the way

Town would just share them. Dunn treats it as if he should just be able to sit idly by and let everyone ask him for his insight. And said thoughts? In 432 he again gives an unsupported read on Leon. Also he basically fence-sits Vedith versus Frog. Look at that post again and read it. No reason why Vedith is scum other than scum-reading Dunn and looking to flip to scum-reading Frog (who after the Powerdown policy talk) has disappeared from his ISO.

Frankly I see the Frog suspicion as light distancing. Frog has refused to acknowledge any of the copious posts pointing out Dunn’s scumminess.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Frog

Despite Vedith’s less than stellar contributions to defending himself as Town I think he’s Town. At least partially this is driven by our shared read on Dunn.

I can see the Frog / Dunn interactions as partners – Dunn’s early PL push on Powerdown could certainly be a frustrated partner willing to bus given the flaking which turned around for little reason once someone active inhabited the slot. I’ve already pointed out what I see as distancing from Dunn today.

Frog’s solid Town read on Dunn also doesn’t make much sense to me. If I have time today I’ll go through Frogs’ ISO and point out things I think are worth considering.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Random thought: A mafia v mafia day 1 if neither can be lynched strikes me as a good way of disassociating from a partner without risk.

Can you clarify what the hell this means?

--

Leonshade is Dunn's partner.

Why wouldn’t he have simply hammered you then instead of re-thinking and going with me on Frog? I mean realistically I was the only one putting up any resistance to you getting lynched. I see your scenario where this is all a set-up between Leon and Dunn but I’m not sure I see that.

What are your thoughts on 1234?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Didn't have time to read & analyze game, but VCA points to frog.

On V/LA but I'd like you to elaborate on this with specifics please.

@Frog

- Along with Leonshade I'd like to see where your reads are now.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Frog

While pretty much all Accountant’s posts are basically fail my feelings from yesterday haven’t gone away.

And the choice of Accountant pretty much means that Dunn is Frog's partner. It was a forgone conclusion that either me or Leonshade was gunning for him and have been for days. Hopkirk maybe, maybe not but being so widely Town viewed if he chose Frog or Dunn as his target sealed a scum lynch. So it makes sense for a Frog / Dunn team to roll the dice on an unknown ... the worst case was not any worse than any other choices and best-case they get another TvT Gladiate.

--

if both of the people in the arena were town, I think the game would have ended by now

VOTE: frog

should have known you were trying something yesterday buddying up to me but Vedith's tunnel was too bad

UNVOTE:

If we nolynch, mafia chooses a kill? and we're at 5 players alive

I’m leaning towards an aborted bus right here. The logic is completely borked in the first post as others have pointed out. The quick unvote after this is pointed out doesn’t reduce my thoughts from yesterday – Frog and Dunn very likely partners. Otherwise Dunn wouldn't have mislynched Town yesterday if he was so sold on Frog as scum.

Also the “Hey let’s No Lynch so scum can kill the most obv-Town player” based as if this was a normal game is pretty damn scummy.

--

I still think Accountant's slot is scum. My opinions on 123456789 have already been given, but you can add to that that 'VCA' is a terrible reason for choosing anybody to be the target. Most likely second scum is MagnaofIllusion. A large part of this is PoE, since I am fairly confident that all of HopKirk, Leonshade, and Dunnstral are town.

Funny how your reads haven’t developed at all since Day 1 effectively.

--

Because numbers looked terrible early game and I know karnos

Why was MapWolf not an “easy wagon”?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Because Map was obvtown

No he wasn't. Frankly if I wasn't so solid on Frog as scum I'd be voting you because not a single one of your posts today has made on iota of sense.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Magna

--

@Hopkirk: Do you have finished games with Dunn & with Magna? I'd also like to know your read on Magna.

I’ll answer only to say he has no completed games with me (unless on an alt, in which case dismiss this comment).

[MagnaofIllusion]

Pretty sure magna is scum or terrible

Also the reasoning behind nolynching is that if both are town we can get one of them out of the lynch and get a new person tomorrow

If magne were town, he would have been picked for the lynch. I don't think frog is magna's partner

Look more scum posting ..

Literally the second line makes absolutely no sense from a Town perspective.

Dunn is saying "Let's No Lynch and let scum kill the Town player the want dead the most so we can save one of todays' Gladiators". Not a bit of Town sense in that.

And the last line also makes no sense since the obvious reason I'm NOT picked for the lynch is to protect my obvious target - Dunn.

Hey Dunn ... why don't you hammer your partner frog?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Stop playing dumb.

I think the following teams are likely:

Magna-Leonshade

Magna-Hopkirk

Which mean it would be both town in the gladiate. Meaning lynching one makes us lose

If you thought that plan was so Townie why didn't you suggest it when there were other lynches you thought were TvT?

The answer is of course because you are afraid of losing your partner today and are flailing around for some way to extricate Frog from the inevitable rope.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Frog dunn makes sense if we think of that as an aborted bud

Esp since town dumn would know for sure frog is town

Um, whut?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Frog dunn makes sense according to the aborted bus theory postulated by someone last page

Town dunn would know for sure frog is scum

Point 1 - it's my theory since I was team reading them yesterday.

Why would Town Dunn know for sure Frog is scum again?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Because dunn is a good player

This attempt to understand your thought process is probably at an end for me.

Thanks for the back and forth at any rate.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well I hadn't even gotten on to explain my thoughts even though I think it was pretty clear why I chose Dunn.

I briefly toyed with wondering why now of all times I got chosen if he is scum but decided it certainly could be a WIFOM mindfuck attempt.

Glad to see we are just waiting for the Mod now.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Last mafia is accountant

You've spent days saying I was scum with Leonhardt so I'm just going to assume this is GG-trolling on your part since you have not said a single thing about Accountant being scum prior to this ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Leon

- when you get to the thread please detail your decision on Accountant.

--

Last maf is hop

Can you detail your thinking on this for me? That would be helpful.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So here is where I stand right now …

I actually am in agreement that Hopkirk stands the best chance of being scum. I wanted to specifically see what Accountant brought to the table (which wasn’t much but I can see the outline and it matches well with what I am seeing) and Hopkirk’s response.

After Dunn flipped Town I started looking through the vote-counts and this particular series of posts is what got me thinking Hopkirk is scum …

Start with the following vote-count from Day 3 –

Vote Count 3.1

frog (0):
Vedith (1): 123456789
Not Voting (4): Dunnstral, MagnaofIllusion, Hopkirk, Leonshade

With 5 votes in play it takes 3 to lynch.
The deadline is at 25 August 9:00am EDT (UTC-4), or in (expired on 2016-08-25 09:00:00).

Mod notes:
BulletNLynchproof is back from V/LA, and is back to being the main moderator.

Early day 3 in the Vedith (Town) versus Frog Gladiate day. Accountant’s slot has already voted for Vedith. Hopkirk posts 429 which effectively says “I’m voting for Vedith after I ISO him”.

Dunn (Town) then votes to get Vedith to L-1 at 432. Hopkirk states “Intent to hammer” at 438. This struck me on re-read because it feels like he’s looking for approval to hammer the Town up against Mafia Frog. So far there has been little resistence to Vedith getting lynched. I can see scum Hopkirk certainly thinking “I get Town sign-off on the hammer and it can’t be used against me later”.

Hopkirk re-iterates his Frog Town read at 443. I make my case for Frog as scum at 450 and vote him. Leonshade votes frog at 454 which puts the wagons at 2-2 with Hopkirk the final vote.

Hopkirk’s ISO of Frog is all sorts of fence-sitty at 455. He leaves the door open to read frog as scum in the future, saying that nothing in his ISO says Town or Scum. And his ISO read of Vedith at 457 strikes me as arranging mislynches given his conclusion that “one is definitely Mafia” from Vedith / Dunn (and we now know both are Town). He then hammers at 471 after some discussion is had by the rest of us about the lynch of the day.

I think Hopkirk got some strong Town reads early and has been cruising on them ever since.

[MagnaofIllusion]

My dilemma is that Hopkirk and I have to agree on a lynch today for it to happen. If he’s scum he’s going to want the player most likely to favor him in LYLO kept alive. And the vote for accountant with absolutely nothing behind it other than an ordered reads list combined with Leon’s strong Townread on Hopkirk all game long fits that fact pattern.

@Hopkirk

– why don’t you explain why Accountant is the obvious choice as scum for you in detail.

--

Thought about Hop switch to frog looks like a bus, panic picked Accountant though

What made you panic pick Accountant? I ask because I know you have expressed a wariness of me as scum and in 516 you already more or less explicitly ruled out an Accountant / Frog pairing.

[MagnaofIllusion]

If you look through old games you'll see i always (or virtually always) give intent to hammer and wait at least a few hours before hammering. This applies as town or scum so isn't related to alignment.

You miss the point then – it only struck me on re-read after this post yesterday …

Lets get this over and dunn with.

VOTE: Dunnstral

I mean you were very, very careful to about presenting yourself as being reasonable when you were set to hammer Town with Frog as the other choice.

Yet yesterday you hammered Dunn without either Leon or me checking in yet or even with Dunn able to post his last thoughts. Granted I thought he was scum yesterday too but the difference between Day 3 and yesterday is that frog is dead and so the last scum has needs multiple mislynches to win and has zero room for error.

This dichotomy in how you handled those votes reads as scum-motivated to me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD - I'll be V/LA from basically now until Monday morning for regular weekend duties.

I still want to see Hopkirk's case on Accountant and I'd like to see more input from Leonshade.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Magna: Why do you want to so me make a case on accountant but not accountant make one on me?

Because Accountant is supposedly scum to you and I wanted to see how you would approach building a case. I'm phone posting so not comment directly other than to say

That post looks like you found a reason to scum-read every post both members of the slot made which is a sign of scum fabricating as opposed to Town looking for signs of scum. Will have to read in depth when I can actually computer.

Also - the "Oh I'm unvoting so Magna can't hammer" is fairly scummy since you opened the day with a naked vote and now are pretending I didn't have tons of opportunity to hammer him if I was scum looking for a mislynch.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok back from V/LA –

At that point and the previous day i was absolutely sure Dunn was mafia and was going to lynch him the next day. I count that as giving intent.
Also i had no reason to care how it looked as i expected the game to end right away. If i was mafia wouldn't i need to care as it'd know there'd be 2 more days?

Personally I think you didn’t care how you’d look because pretty much everyone by Dunn was scum-reading Dunn so you didn’t think you would draw any suspicion at all for the quick hammer.

Still doesn’t explain why, even if you were sure the game was over, you felt the need to hammer before half the players left in the game had even posted. Cutting the day absolutely short benefits scum in potentially keeping Dunn’s comments out of thread.

And in fact you are contradicting that with this post today –

I am voting you, just without putting my vote on you. I just don't want night instantly.

There's no way I'd vote Leon over you unless he basically quoted himself and frog discussing picks in the mafia QT.

If you are so overwhelmingly certain Accountant is scum (which your hey Accountant is 80%) why the sudden worry about going to night quickly. You weren’t shy going to Night early being sure on Dunn? In fact that you dropped a vote right out of the gate today shows you initially weren’t worried about going to Night quickly either.

Only after I came in and reacted in a manner you didn’t expect (scum-reading you) do you suddenly throw on the brakes and play LAMIST with the “concern” for potential hammering.

Not sure where you get 'I didn't have tons of opportunity to hammer him if I was scum looking for a mislynch.' You could have justified it by saying something like 'Oh well i've got what i wanted from Hopkirk so that's what i needed, now i'll vote accountant etc, hammers'. Actually it probably wouldn't make a difference if you did that, but i don't want you to skip over responding.

See this isn’t an answer. You posted your vote at 599. I posted at 601, 602, 604 and 609. You then unvoted at 610.

Which shows you weren’t really worried at all about a quick-hammer because I could have hammered at any time during those posts had I wanted a mislynch on Accountant. In fact I could have not laid out who I thought was the best candidate for scum (you) and just gone with the flow.

So 610 is just you grandstanding for LAMIST reasons.

You seem to be playing today for tomorrow. I haven't even heard your preference on Leon/Accountant and it looks like you might be trying to bring the most likely person to lynch me into tomorrow rather than scumhunting today.

Actually playing tomorrow for today seems to be exactly what you are did today – Accountant had already come into the thread and called you scum. Leon, despite his apparent misgivings, did not gladiate you. Thus you immediately drop a vote on Accountant and begin the process of buddying up to Leonshade as hard as you can after I also express that you are my top scum read.

I don’t have a preference between Leon and Accountant because personally I don’t think either of them stand much of a chance of being scum.

Your little PBPA case on Accountant tries to peddle the Frog gladiate as a bus when that doesn’t make sense. Frog had just escaped the rope the day before. Dunn was widely scum-read by myself and Leon among the living as well as the just lynched Town Vedith. Accountant replacing in overnight as scum has a clean slate and carte blanche to choose whoever they want as target and can’t be called out for lacking in consistency. You seem to be peddling that scum chose the stupidest route to victory – sticking both members of their team in the voting pool thus making certain they lose a member as opposed to going after what we now know was a prime mislynch target. Scum Accountant choosing Dunn likely means Dunn eats rope and then scum only need 1 more mislynch to win. And Dunn flipping Town without Frog flipped puts a heavy spotlight on those who pushed him. That doesn’t pass the smell test.

Leonshade also doesn’t make a ton of sense as scum for the same reason you do make absolute sense as scum – Day 3. As I have previously pointed out all the momentum was for a Vedith lynch. He doesn’t have to come in and follow me on Frog when you’ve already made it pretty clear you want a Vedith lynch also. He could have taken his time as scum, pretending to be digging into ISOs and not committing to frog as scum, and just run out the clock until you dropped your Vedith vote. He didn’t do that. He chose to vote Frog with me and make it a 2-2 tie. That’s again pretty stupid play from scum as someone already on the Vedith wagon might have been swayed and come over to vote frog.

Meanwhile you’ve yet to reasonably address the fact that you didn’t vote Frog as the deciding vote Day 3.

So I’m in the position of seeing you as scum wanting to shape endgame to how you see fit today and am in the "Damned if I Do and Damned if I Don’t" position. We have to agree on a lynch today for it to happen.

So I have the choice of voting with you so you can bring you favored player between Leon or Accountant to endgame (which given your buddying is clearly Leon) or don’t vote with you and end up not lynching which lets you Nightkill whoever of myself or Accountant you think least serves you tomorrow surviving.

[MagnaofIllusion]

This doesn’t make sense. What point is there in waiting for other people to post when I’m sure Dunn is mafia? The game is over at that point. Are you seriously saying you think the town thing to do when you can hammer the last scum is to wait and spend time trying to hammer in the tawniest way possible?

Yes it does make sense to question you. Hand-waving it away isn’t going to change the fact that you have spent the prior days with a careful and thoughtful style to your play and then once Frog flips scum you no longer have the same deliberation.

Link me to any completed scum games you have on site.

Because I was much more sure on Dunn than accountant. That should be pretty evident. Why would I want to give a potential mafia (1/5 isn’t 0, it is significant) a chance to quick hammer when I don’t want them to.

Given you (and everyone else) was wrong on Dunn I don’t see why you wouldn’t have given Town Dunn (even if it was a low percentage chance, 10% isn’t zero) a chance to post his final thoughts.

Again your “I don’t want to given scum a chance to quickhammer” statement is LAMISTy posturing and the fact that you keep pretending it was ever a possibility makes me more and more confident that I’m correct on you.

You got a lot more scummy, which means I need more time to think today.

Funny how I got a lot more scummy just after I came out with a solid case of you as the final scum.

This is blatant misrepresentation. I said I removed the vote because I was getting more suspicious of you, so didn’t want to give you the chance to hammer, are you’re pretending I unvoted because I didn’t want accountant hammered.

Again – aside from the OMGUS – you keep presenting it as if there was any chance I was going to hammer Accountant in the game state after the point where I’d laid out that I think the last scum is you. No chance of that happening and you clinging to it for LAMIST reasons is scummy.

If you are town and think I am mafia then this isn’t even a choice. Why would you even consider letting mafia have a nightkill in this scenario. That’s not a question of two ‘bad’ scenarios, it’s more comparable to a papercut vs dismemberment.

Are you seriously trying to float this? I am Town and I do think you are Mafia. The end result of both scenarios is “Someone I think is probably Town dies (or I who I know is Town dies) and Hopkirk scum gets to choose who he takes to LYLO”. So presenting one as “Hey, no prob” and the other as “Oh my god I lost an arm” is bad.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You ignored all of my questions and the most important points. I could respond to what you said but it's a waste of time.
I looked through your post and there was nothing that actually needs responding to.

You know that if you don't vote accountant then you'll be lynched in lylo. No reason for me to respond to anything except what Leon says/asks at this point.

I actually want to here from Leon also - but the bolded is basically claiming everything I've said about you today is correct - buddying up to Leon is your only hope.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Now it's literally 50-50.
I explained why he has to lynch, he chose not to quote that, one of the important points he chose to ignore.
Not lynching as town is a scum claim. Doing so is LITERALLY saying that you think accountant has a higher chance of being town than you yourself have.
The fact accountant doesn't acknowledge this means one of you is scum and one is a VI. Accountant is probably more likely to be the VI.

What likely happens from here:
Magna forces no lynch, kills Leon, game ends. This is what he wants to happen.

Why would I have quoted your post again when it is meaningless from any perspective than yours? Seriously - all that post was predicated from the "Hopkirk will lynch Accountant with no chance of changing" which is pointless for me to address. The fact that you derive from your post that I should lynch if I am Town is meaningless to me given I think you are scum.

The line "not lynching as town is a scum claim" is funny.

I have never said Accountant has a higher chance of being Town than me to me - that's stupid.

I die at Night and you get lynched tomorrow. Simple as that. You are forgetting the most important factor that shows you aren't Town - I know I can win even if we No Lynch and get I get killed tonight because I win when the Town wins. You are not approaching your logic from this point of view when you try to sell the above.

But if we are speaking of not addressing things - everyone should be reminded that Hopkirk has not addressed in any meaningful way the fact that he hammered Town over Scum Day 3.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You are explicitly saying someone whose role pm you have not seen has a 100% chance of being scum. Not taking even a 0.1% chance is scum.

Never said that and the misrepresentation is bad.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Because as town I wouldn't know that if we lynch town there's another day. Despite going through things 3 days ago I apparently don't know that. This game isn't worth wasting any more time on, town is dumb and doesn't respond to posts anyway. No intention to check thread again until lynch or prod being due.

Why would Town not know that. It's pretty clear given that the role PMs are publicly posted so we that the Mafia's wincon is not different from the standard - when the Mafia numbers equal Town. So there logically has to be a tomorrow unless we eliminate the Mafia today.

Frankly given all the times you've said "MoI is playing for tomorrow" it is pretty clear you fully understood that there was a tomorrow if the lynch today is not scum.

--

So now that Leon has weighed in I feel better about today. I'm not particularly interested in lynching either of you today since I don't see you as Mafia but if Accountant is willing to eat the rope I'll go along with it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Playing for tomorrow- I began day with a vote on the more likely mafia. You began by attacking the person you wanted to lynch tomorrow.
You are the luckiest mafia I can remember considering the town you got.

Nice dodge. Again - you can't pretend that you are Town for not knowing there would be a tomorrow when every Town can clearly see in the opening posts and provided RolePMs that with 1 Mafia left that will be a Gladiate with one deciding voter.

As to how I began the day - you are correct I began the Day attacking who I think was the last Mafia. Which has been clearly laid out as to why. The fact that you unfortunately are not in the Gladiate pool for today is irrelevant. I'm have been trying to solve the game.

You started today going after the mislynch that best fit your desired endgame and groom the mislynch for tomorrow in your appeals to Leonshade.

[MagnaofIllusion]

If it wasn't understood I'm waiting on positive confirmation from Accountant and Leon that they both think it is best to lynch Accountant before voting.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Lynch Accountant, let's get to the endgame.

Ok both of you are on board - let's get this done -

VOTE: Accountant

[MagnaofIllusion]

Assuming there's a night we can submit picks in advance.

Are you honestly suggesting that Accountant as the last scum positively confirmed he was OK with being lynched today given that ends the game 100% while him not agreeing to it could lead to possible No Lynch?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Probably town since you are more likely last town.
That's why I said assuming. It's likely, but not confirmed.
You'd also attack me if I said the exact same sentence without the assuming. 'ah so you know accountant isn't mafia' is what you'dsay.

Firstly I'm guessing the "you are more likely last Town" was supposed to be "last scum" ...

That said the "You'd attack me for doing the opposite" is a scum argument since I'm under the assumption that we go to Night since you are my last Scum read so it is completely not within the realm of reasonableness for me to make the hypothetical argument against you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vote Count 6.3

Leonshade (0):
Accountant (1): MagnaofIllusion (

L-1

)
Not Voting (1): Hopkirk

With 2 votes in play it takes 2 to lynch.
The deadline is at 15 September 11:00am EDT (UTC-4), or in

(expired on 2016-09-15 11:00:00)

.

Mod Notes:
Leonshade will be V/LA from 15-20 September.

UNVOTE: Accountant

Hopkirk has been on numerous times since I voted and despite all his talk about not wanting to stall things out that is exactly what I think he is doing - extending the Day until Leon as on a hard V/LA with little access and then hoping a replacement will have a different read.

Not willing to have Accountant lynched under that circumstance which frankly I find borderline illegal play.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I've been online waiting for host to move to night/wondering why thread was still open. Turns out I was mot voting

So you’ve waited patiently all Night for the thread to be closed and never bothered in that time to double check you were actually voting? The seems like kind of a stretch given the fanfare you made about unvoting Accountant to prevent my “quick hammer”.

Everyone wants to kill hop.

Yes he does. He gets a kill and a pick. This gives him 2 options not one.

And once again these two quotes show you aren’t approaching this from a logical Town standpoint.

If everyone wants you dead (which is true) it is irrelevant to MoI hypo-scum whether Accountant gets lynched or we go to Night without a lynch (which happened). In any case someone dies at Night and you get lynched tomorrow. Absolutely no need to bother pointing out your play (not voting while presenting that you want the day ended ASAP) in that case just let the clock run out. Either way Scum MoI gets his wish.

But scum Hopkirk knows he is doomed if the player-list stay static. It’s a longshot but running today as late as possible (which you did) puts the fall of Night into the 6 day period where Leonshade has possible limited access. Maybe something happens with his local WIFI and he can’t get access to MS. And maybe the Mod doesn’t want to extend the Night for that V/LA and replaces him. Seeing him replaced is your best shot to affect the game-state in a way that could lead to Town losing .

[MagnaofIllusion]

I think everything that needs to be said has at this point.

So this is what you kids term a prod dodge.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well glad I can stop prod dodging.

Glad you took your time Accountant. No reason to rush even if Hopkirk as scum was that logical and obvious conclusion.

Town win WOOT WOOT!

Summoning BPL to certify the win for the good guys!

[MagnaofIllusion]

A certain level of paranoia should be a standard for playing this game. I think too often players fail to be paranoid about people they are familiar / chummy with and it costs Town often.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Of course I have no objections to the scum PT being released.

Will read the Dead PT after I get some other things accomplished and provide my thoughts afterwards.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Accountant

- had I chosen you for the Gladiator the last day what would you have done?

[MagnaofIllusion]

To be honest i think the setup could use 1 pr. Although you could argue that would ruin its simplicity.

I'd disagree. I think the advantages scum get in controlling half the players able to be voted per day is more than offset but the additional number of mislynches scum needs to achieve to win the game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

a.) Accountant is scum who waited a while to hammer (i don't think this is possible due to win con though).

Mod can probably confirm this but if Accountant was the last Mafia I expect in the situation BPL would have just called the game when Accountant was not able to be voted.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Lol. Twilight trolling is a necessity I have found.

No need to repeat the Thor Debacle ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

I think you aren't parsing my question properly -

If instead of myself as the Gladiator I had instead chosen you would you have made Hopkirk or myself your target?