Micro 647: True Love - Game Over

[Infinity 324]

Hi everyone I've played with before!

VOTE: tenshii who are you

[Infinity 324]

What's your history with creature?

[Infinity 324]

I played a game with creature!town when I was scum ad he did a bunch of shit

But yeah he tends to lurk

[Infinity 324]

Claiming lovers should be only done at L-1 imo. Otherwise it lets scum know which pairs they can kill. I don't see a reason for town to claim lovers prematurely.

[Infinity 324]

Yes, the player list is shown in the op...

The pairs aren't though

[Infinity 324]

What and what

Ok

[Infinity 324]

Got it.

[Infinity 324]

I meant that scum could choose which two people to kill instead of killing one and hoping to get another good kill.

But that's clearly not relevant for multiple different reasons.

What's with the minimalist entrance?

[Infinity 324]

They'd know their pairs, but not the T/T pairs.

PEdit: well scum can't kill, is that what you're talking about

[Infinity 324]

But not in how I thought the setup was...

why are we arguing about my opinion on my incorrect perception of the setup

[Infinity 324]

why not?

I do have some opinions on the correct perception of the setup, but I think I will keep them to myself for the time being. (I might tell them to Leonshade, haven't decided yet.)

Well I pretty much use genuine opinions about setup spec as scum (see: mislead)

Anyway. Why no RVS?

[Infinity 324]

s_s, I see where you're coming from with that last part, but you!town being in a pair increases that pairs chances of being T/T fypov. So I think leon has the same chance of being scum as anyone else.

But I agree actually

UNVOTE:

[Infinity 324]

nah bro I worked out the numbers and all

The only given in this setup is that any player with a scum lover must be town. From my POV, the only player who cannot possibly have a scum lover is Leonshade. However the differences are slight and have very little relevance to the game, I just like doing math

Isnt it just, everyone else has a 2/3 chance of being town?

What am I missing here

[Infinity 324]

Other half of the Cowardly Lion reporting in! I would've RVSed for Infinity, since he's the only one I've been in a finished game with, but Double S makes good points about the setup.

Why do I always scumread your entrances

[Infinity 324]

Got it.

Leon's entrance pinged me because it strikes me as an unnecessary comment that didn't add anything productive. Why talk about what your RVS would've been and not add anything else productive, if not to appear to be doing something?

But this has happened before with leon!town so I'm inclined to just treat it as NAI.

[Infinity 324]

No. You're gonna accuse me of fence-sitting?

[Infinity 324]

No, I wasn't going to...

I just want to know, was Leon's the first comment that seemed unnecessary and unproductive?

The first one that seemed to be under the guise of doing stuff I think. Everyone else that posted had made at least one productive comment right?

You think I made up that side comment I wasn't going to push why? I could've just ignored leon's post.

[Infinity 324]

probably
infinity/creature pair is by far the best to lynch so far

Why

[Infinity 324]

@Gamma Why haven't you really contributed yet?

^^ this is the other player who has talked but not really contributed but I didn't notice it at the time

[Infinity 324]

I don't have any real reads, by the way. I'm just poking and prodding to find stuff to talk about.

LAMIST?

[Infinity 324]

You didn't notice that he was trying to name the teams instead of scumhunt them?

Well I didn't notice that he didn't really have any scumhunting posts. I thought there might've been one that I forgot about, since scumhunting this early isn't usually groundbreaking, but when it's not there it's important.

[Infinity 324]

he's 16 years old btw

Gamma? I'll keep that in mind but I've played with gamma before.

It was more along the lines of, inb4 I get attacked for my nonexistent push on you.

Why would you be attacked for that push?

[Infinity 324]

But why would you be attacked for it?

[Infinity 324]

Hmm. If you wanted to investigate as opposed to just state a scumread, why not say anything else in 53?

[Infinity 324]

I wanted to see how you'd react to me just asking that question without stating a read.

Actually, I can't help but townread you here. Even though it may be naive.

[Infinity 324]

I still don't like that line that I called out as LAMIST but I like how you're digging deep kinda lowkey.

[Infinity 324]

@gamma Any other reads? What do you make of the fact that I pushed the same thing and townread s_s, while leon seems to scumread him?

[Infinity 324]

Why are you inclined to townread me for it then

You seem much more complacent than you were in our game together

[Infinity 324]

(Gamma continually activity stalked people in that game just to get some sort of push going)

[Infinity 324]

Well this game is very different. I was trying to make sure the scumteam didn't nightkill me that game. Also, I really feel bad about the stalking part. I'll probably only call someone out if they come online and leave without posting now, and maybe not even then.

You were trying to make the scum NK you by...scumhunting more? I don't get it.

[Infinity 324]

I feel I have some good questions though. Eh I think this is worth it.
What is your thought on lynching your lover if they start to appear scummy?

If that person is scummier than any other lover pair combined, then I'd lynch my own pair.

[Infinity 324]

Well this game is very different. I was trying to make sure the scumteam didn't nightkill me that game. Also, I really feel bad about the stalking part. I'll probably only call someone out if they come online and leave without posting now, and maybe not even then.

You were trying to make the scum NK you by...scumhunting more? I don't get it.

I was behaving sorta crazy to shift the target off of me by making myself hard to read. I was cop, remember?

Yeah I remember. I suppose it may have worked but it looked towny as fuck to me.

Wisdom, did you get anything out of the back and forth between me and s_s?

[Infinity 324]

Is anyone scum though?

[Infinity 324]

By anyone I meant me or s_s. Lol

[Infinity 324]

Well this game is very different. I was trying to make sure the scumteam didn't nightkill me that game. Also, I really feel bad about the stalking part. I'll probably only call someone out if they come online and leave without posting now, and maybe not even then.

You were trying to make the scum NK you by...scumhunting more? I don't get it.

I was behaving sorta crazy to shift the target off of me by making myself hard to read. I was cop, remember?

Yeah I remember. I suppose it may have worked but it looked towny as fuck to me.

Wisdom, did you get anything out of the back and forth between me and s_s?

that if anyone is scum its you

In context it was.

[Infinity 324]

Thinking more about it, I don't think scum!s_s would really be more defensive in this case than town!s_s.

Tenshii, why such early judgement? Do you not have questions to ask players?

[Infinity 324]

Has leonshade brought up any original points, really?

[Infinity 324]

What do you think about gamma

And are you ever going to give reasons for anything? I've read games of yours where you have...

[Infinity 324]

Ok. Just would prefer more elaboration/doing other stuff

If only so I can read you

[Infinity 324]

@tenshii I don't like how you're judging instead of trying to sort but I don't think that's scummy.

What do you think of wisdom

[Infinity 324]

Cause you'll probably have to change them eventually. Otherwise that's confbias.

[Infinity 324]

Ok but

Early game is a time for sorting, not judging. We don't really need to make a decision yet, we just need to figure shit out.

[Infinity 324]

I think his question was more like did you want to make a comment about anyone's alignment/just a prod to everyone to do more stuff/something else.

[Infinity 324]

Why didn't you say that when gamma asked you originally?

[Infinity 324]

Except sorting is more relevant early in d1 and judging in more relevant late in the day when you need to decide on a lynch.

Let's do this though.

VOTE: gamma

[Infinity 324]

Yeah but only to a certain extent. It's hard to find out people's alignments by only saying who you think is scum.

[Infinity 324]

gamma wagon is bullshit

I dont have a read on Gamma

Want to protect yourself?

[Infinity 324]

-Unless I'm the scum you're talking about, tenshii wasn't really being opportunistic
-Gamma hasn't really given original opinions when you criticized leon and tenshii for that (even though he hasn't given many opinions at all)
-The 16 year old thing seems like a dumb excuse. I'm 18.
-You should welcome a wagon on your nulls was to sort them, calling a wagon on your null read bullshit makes no sense

VOTE: wisdom

[Infinity 324]

those are all bad points
and your vote doesnt make sense, gamma is my lover

It's to show you're the one I think is the most scummy.

Your play goes beyond lazy town, now you're just being anti-town on purpose. Seriously, when 2 people vote you you can't just call one bad and the other scum and not respond to the points.

[Infinity 324]

Wisdom, do you think scum would try to defend their lover in this game?

[Infinity 324]

Notice how wisdom doesn't respond to the request to 1v1.

[Infinity 324]

Town usually jump at the chance to 1v1 with their scumreads.

[Infinity 324]

One gets lynched today, one gets lynched tomorrow

[Infinity 324]

oh that? sure, if tenshi goes first
We're not lynching my pair today though

What if gamma starts scumming up the place

[Infinity 324]

creature is doing nothing which is scum indicative for him

Don't you think it's a bit early to say that after only 1 day?

[Infinity 324]

What has gamma done that's towny? Or do you think ASP lurking is scummy?

[Infinity 324]

Leon, what do you think about me and tenshii' push on wisdom?

[Infinity 324]

Oh yeah I forgot about that

[Infinity 324]

I don't know what to make of the fact that me, wisdom, and gamma are all voting wisdom for different reasons. I want to say he wouldn't fuck up that bad but...sometimes they do.

[Infinity 324]

Correct gamma

Wisdom, ok, but even good scum players can fuck up when people use tells that they don't expect. Can you link a scum game of yours?

[Infinity 324]

What changed with your read on me and gamma, wisdom

[Infinity 324]

Lol gamma this game is not dead at all

I looked at wisdom's scum games and they pretty much gave me nothing so that's that

I would like to hear creature's thoughts on the recent developments

Also s_s's

[Infinity 324]

Trying to look like lazy town while being lazy scum

Pushing a player cause that's what town is supposed to you

Is that what you're looking for?

[Infinity 324]

Wisdom's play here isn't similar to his last few scum games, he seems to care more about appearing town in his recent scum games than in this game. (I read Micro 581, Mini 1637 and one other Pokemon game).

I'm conflicted, as I don't like Wisdom's reluctance to communicate and unwillingness to elaborate on his points, but overall I'm not getting a scum vibe from him. As Gamma pointed out, scumreading someone from every other pair seems a bit too convenient, but if you scumread half the players, it's not much of a stretch. Not interested in a Wisdom lynch right now.

Don't have a read on Tenshii yet. I'd like to see more from the less active players.

What do you think about wisdom's defense of gamma/my reasoning in 148

[Infinity 324]

Because the way you defended gamma was scummy as fuck.

[Infinity 324]

You called a wagon on your nullread bullshit, making an excuse for him by saying he was 16, then conventiently gave a reason to townread him after.

I would've expected town!you to talk about how scum!tenshii makes gamma town

[Infinity 324]

honestly? i didnt think about that till now that you mentioned it

Ok enough of this shit, you're too scummy to be scum

I mean scum would never be this sloppy, if you're trying to find reasons to townread gamma you don't missy hat one.

It's not impossible for that to come from scum but unlikely.

UNVOTE:

[Infinity 324]

I'm feeling town!creature here. Mainly cause he's talking to me more in private than in public, scum would just keep their private thoughts secret.

[Infinity 324]

I don't think creature is buddying me, but it's a possibility

I tend to be sensitive (maybe oversensitive) to buddying

[Infinity 324]

Lol s_s, the post you liked was me trying to continue to bs the push on wisdom with what little reasoning I had left

The reason for townreading creature was a gut read that I may not have explained perfectly, but that's what it is.

s_s, do you have any reads now other than wisdom?

[Infinity 324]

Why is tenshii scum, s_s

[Infinity 324]

Why are weak pushes and bad logic scummy -_-

[Infinity 324]

Why are weak pushes and bad logic scummy -_-

because scum need to fabricate cases on townies without real reasons, so they have to use bad reasons.

You could make the same argument to say wisdom is scum, but that's not really a thing

Town uses bad logic a lot, and it's really not that hard for scum to fabricate reasons that look reasonable

[Infinity 324]

Not liking Tenshii's ignorance of things plainly stated. Him saying I could be scum would be good for him, but the way Tenshii presented it makes me unable to give him Town points for it.

What did he ignore?

What changed in your tenshii/wisdom reads between when you voted wisdom, and now?

[Infinity 324]

Wisdom saying he townreads you, like tenshii said, isn't really relevant to the point. The point is that wisdom's scumread on tenshii should've influence his townread on you.

Why do you think scum would blatantly ignore things?

Why is wisdom more towny now, and why is tenshii more scummy other than "ignoring things"?

@tenshii If scum!wisdom was looking for reasons to townread gamma, why would he miss such an obvious one?

[Infinity 324]

I remember tenshii asked me about what creature said in the lover PT, it was mainly him explaining his reads. I'll let creature go into it if he wants to.

[Infinity 324]

Don't get how scum!wisdom knows gamma is town therefore he'd be less likely to find obvious reasons to townread him. Don't see the connection there at all. You're less likely to miss reasons if you're looking for them...

Creature posting more in private is...understandable. Don't want to speak for him, but anything you say in public can give info to scum, and he townreads me, so...

[Infinity 324]

Don't get how scum!wisdom knows gamma is town therefore he'd be less likely to find obvious reasons to townread him. Don't see the connection there at all. You're less likely to miss reasons if you're looking for them...

Creature posting more in private is...understandable. Don't want to speak for him, but anything you say in public can give info to scum, and he townreads me, so...

Scum!Wisdom would have an easier time finding reasons because they know I'm town.

So then he would be less likely to miss reasons...right?

[Infinity 324]

Wisdom's playstyle has one big downside for scum: it draws negative attention to himself. I think he'd be trying to look town more if he was scum

[Infinity 324]

Town can look scummy too, so the fact that Wisdom has traits that look scummy doesn't mean that he's scum.

What??? "the fact that Wisdom has traits that look scummy" /thread. You're implying you agree with me on my points.

Sure, town can look scummy. Scum can look towny too. That doesn't take away from the fact that Wisdom is being scummy.

Wisdom drew more negative attention on himself while he had suspicion and the start of a wagon against him, which is behavior more likely to come from town than scum.

I was implying that the negative attention happened because he's being scummy. Wagons happen on either alignment.

Being blatantly anti-town early in the game is basically guaranteed to draw attention to yourself, so it's usually not a good scum tactic. Either wisdom fucked up really badly or he's town. And don't say that was his plan all along cause...no, it wasn't.

[Infinity 324]

Don't get how scum!wisdom knows gamma is town therefore he'd be less likely to find obvious reasons to townread him. Don't see the connection there at all. You're less likely to miss reasons if you're looking for them...

Creature posting more in private is...understandable. Don't want to speak for him, but anything you say in public can give info to scum, and he townreads me, so...

Scum!Wisdom would have an easier time finding reasons because they know I'm town.

What was the purpose of this statement

[Infinity 324]

Did it have any purpose relating to this game? Or was it just you wanted to get your theory into the world?

[Infinity 324]

Was it meant to be:

a) A reason to townread wisdom
b) A reason to scumread wisdom
c) Other ____________________

Normally people don't just point out things for the sake of them. If it's not relevant to people's reads on wisdom then I don't see why you mentioned it.

[Infinity 324]

Then you're missing the point entirely. What I was trying to say is that scum!wisdom wouldn't be likely to miss obvious reasons to townread you, and therefore would probably say that tenshii being scum makes you town.

But your response makes more sense in that context, I guess

[Infinity 324]

s_s, who is scum

[Infinity 324]

Dafuq is that for

[Infinity 324]

s_s, who is scum

One of Tenshii and ASP most likely. (I didn't like ASP's last post at all.)

However, I think my other reads will be pretty dependent on the flip and thus I don't want to get too much into them before that happens.

You think we're ready for a flip?

[Infinity 324]

Being blatantly anti-town early in the game is basically guaranteed to draw attention to yourself, so it's usually not a good scum tactic. Either wisdom fucked up really badly or he's town. And don't say that was his plan all along cause...no, it wasn't.

How do you come to that conclusion?

What conclusion, that wisdom can't tell the future?

Not a skill that humans tend to have.

Somewhat considering self hammering cuz I didn't like ASP's last post. ASP feels like a coin flip atm.

Well this comes off a bit forced, but I really don't like how many people are willing to lynch this pair given the lack of case on them. This would also indicate ASP is town.

And it's not impossible tenshii is subconsciously trying to town tell as town here. That shit happens sometimes.

I really don't think we're ready for a flip, at least I'm not. I barely have any strong developed reads yet, tbh.

Let's do this

VOTE: s_s

[Infinity 324]

First of all, you're the only person who has really pushed the wagon

Second, there are points but the points are weak even on the surface imo. Like yes I can see how some townies would think tenshii is scummy but I don't really see how 5 townies could be ready to lynch tenshii right now based on the evidence there is.

[Infinity 324]

If tenshi and ASP somehow end up being both town infinity is definitely scum for this halfassed WKing

Ask s_s, he's seen me WK before.

[Infinity 324]

So what's the point of the Lover PT? If we shouldn't do RVS, when should voting start? Atm, I have Gamma + SS for scum. Gamma is unproductive. SS is unnecessarily defensive.

VOTE: tenshi
Neither point is original

from opportunistic scum looking to get an easy lynch on a 16 year old? Sure

So basically in the same post he calls ASP scummy to the point where selfhammer is an option
Yet also a coinflip to dissuade others from wanting to lynch him
Cant you see the survivalism here?

These are all the points I can find in your ISO against tenshii

It's weird that everyone else sees this unspoken really strong case on tenshii that's not in the thread

[Infinity 324]

If tenshi and ASP somehow end up being both town infinity is definitely scum for this halfassed WKing

Ask s_s, he's seen me WK before.

lol selfmeta
The fact you feel the need to defend yourself means i was right on

Except that's not what self meta is?

I feel like I might need to defend myself because I think both ASP and tenshii are not, and it would be nice not to have someone tunneling me all of d2

the best case against tenshi is tenshis posts

Mhm, of course

And no one could just explain why that is?

[Infinity 324]

So you think everyone who scumreads tenshii is town? Who is his partner then?

[Infinity 324]

I can, but I'll leave it to Wisdom cuz he started it.

He'll probably let you down

[Infinity 324]

That was directed at wisdom

You should answer why

you

think tenshii is scum. Because wisdom probably won't do it that well, and you need to take responsibility for your votes.

[Infinity 324]

So you think everyone who scumreads tenshii is town? Who is his partner then?

no and either Leon or you
though Im kind of thinking it's leon and you now given your WKing

If you thought it was leon and tenshii, why argue with me when I said there's scum on the wagon?

If you thought it was me and tenshii, why say I was WKing?

Use your brain

I still don't understand why you scumread me for pointing out the fact that people are ready to lynch essentially without a case

@Infinity: Because that towntell feels a little to easy on further inspection.

Why did you originally scumread tenshii?

[Infinity 324]

If you thought it was leon and tenshii, why argue with me when I said there's scum on the wagon?

because your point is that it makes tenshi town

True

[Infinity 324]

I still don't understand why you scumread me for pointing out the fact that people are ready to lynch essentially without a case

because it's a piss poor defense
cases are bullshit

It's doesn't even have to be a case. Just a substantial amount of reasoning.

I think your attack is piss poor. You think my defense is. Does that make either of us scum?

[Infinity 324]

I don't remember exactly why I originally scumread Tenshii, but looking back I see that his scumread and vote on me were rather lazy.

What if I told you that your vote on him is just as lazy and is later on in the game when we have more to go off of.

[Infinity 324]

yeah, you are
your deflections are bad

I prefer to call it logic.

I think you need a solid chunk of reasoning in order to lynch someone. You, apparently, don't, and think I am scum for saying that. But why can't I just be disagreeing with you

Well I'll say maybe you're right, but I was sheeping Wisdom, who had a reason, I believe. So whatever his logic was at that time was my logic.

-_-

That would be considered lazy

[Infinity 324]

You're my strongest townread at the moment. Your play doesn't make sense as scum

[Infinity 324]

of course

Fucking christ

yeah, you are
your deflections are bad

I prefer to call it logic.

I think you need a solid chunk of reasoning in order to lynch someone. You, apparently, don't, and think I am scum for saying that. But why can't I just be disagreeing with you

Well I'll say maybe you're right, but I was sheeping Wisdom, who had a reason, I believe. So whatever his logic was at that time was my logic.

-_-

That would be considered lazy

DID I SAY YOU WERE WRONG?

No but

If you're town you should try to think for yourself

[Infinity 324]

hey infinity
you think tenshi&ASP are both town
you think I am town

so are you scumreading Gamma then? Because otherwise you're claiming scum

I think creature could be scum

[Infinity 324]

I'm feeling town!creature here. Mainly cause he's talking to me more in private than in public, scum would just keep their private thoughts secret.

according to this you're not scumreading creature either

I've townread a lot of people through the game (including the person I'm voting). But the townreads didn't necessarily last until now.

The question is whether scum would expect to get town red for voting tenshii if ASP is scum

[Infinity 324]

haha suddenly ASP can be scum, huh? out of options

Somehow you fail to realize it's page 16. Anyone could be scum.

It's more like, if the answer to that question is no, it basically confirms my theory that they're both town.

[Infinity 324]

Yeah that was bad. Infinity seems to be leaving doors open all around.
VOTE: Infinity

WHERE DID I SAY I WANTED TO LYNCH ASP

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: gamma

All this sheeping and buddying of wisdom is quite scummy

[Infinity 324]

i fail to realize how pages are relevant
ive caught scum on page 1 before

Clearly, through your superior power of scumhunting. Had nothing to do with luck, at all

Some people realize that mafia is a game of thinking, and that the right answer is not always the easiest one.

[Infinity 324]

@gamma Do you think I am scum with tenshii or...?

[Infinity 324]

^basically translates to "plz dont scumread me im just thinking differently"

manipulative as fuck

More like "you start actually thinking at all"

[Infinity 324]

If you haven't noticed, I've been insulting your thinking for a while.

PEdit: yes it does gamma

If there's no one that makes sense as my partner, it doesn't make sense for me to be scum.

It's easy to sheep wisdom and use that as an excuse for not thinking about the game

[Infinity 324]

Well as I said, it's probably Infinity/Creature and ASP/Tenshii. So either Tenshii or ASP.

Ok

Why not s_s or leon

[Infinity 324]

If there's no one that makes sense as my partner, it doesn't make sense for me to be scum.

so you cant lynch scum based on individual actions?
you have to figure out the whole scumteam first?

You should at least consider who that players partner is first

Hypothetically, if there are strong negative associations between that player and every other player, that's a good reason not to lynch them

[Infinity 324]

sure..? how is that relevant? gamma didnt say there are strong negative associations between you and anyone at all

It's just something to take into consideration

I mean you think there are negative associations between me and tenshii/ASP. Gamma disagrees.

That's a line of thought worth looking into.

[Infinity 324]

Well if Wisdom would post more in the Lover PT we may be on the same page or something. I try to start discussion but all I'm getting is white noise.

I think you're a bit too much on the same page, actually.

[Infinity 324]

Well as I said, it's probably Infinity/Creature and ASP/Tenshii. So either Tenshii or ASP.

Ok

Why not s_s or leon

Gamma, answer this please

[Infinity 324]

Well this comes off a bit forced, but I really don't like how many people are willing to lynch this pair given the lack of case on them.

Bussing/distancing.

So you think ASP is scum?

I'm thinking if ASP was scum, scum would be less likely to vote tenshii. They should get just as much town red, and perhaps they would, but intuitively I think scum would hesitate more. The payout seems less direct.

[Infinity 324]

What do you think about the recent developments? Do you still townread gamma?

[Infinity 324]

Sigh

Ok. Why would leon or s_s bus and which scumread looks more like a bus to you.

[Infinity 324]

I also think if ASP was scum, his partner would wait for him to post more before deciding whether or not to bus

Speaking of which, ASP needs to talk more

[Infinity 324]

I've spectated at least one game where he talked very little as town

[Infinity 324]

Sigh

Ok. Why would leon or s_s bus and which scumread looks more like a bus to you.

Can you answer this please

[Infinity 324]

I meant is leon's or s_s's scumread more likely a bus to you

[Infinity 324]

Ok makes sense.

Maybe we wagon s_s? My townread on wisdom is stronger than my townread on leon anyway

[Infinity 324]

See that's where we differ. I think either you or gamma are scum.

VOTE: s_s

[Infinity 324]

One of S_S-Leon being scum would mean Tenshii-ASP is most likely a town-town pair and scum is in you or Wisdom.

That's a weird sort of symmetry

Either me, my strongest townread, creature, or creature strongest townread is scum in this case

So if ASP is scum, who is scum with him

[Infinity 324]

Actually, I think the answer to that question is you

But still unlikely.

[Infinity 324]

How do you think scum!{Leon, S_S} would act with scum!{Tenshii, ASP}?

I think it's different depends on whic of tenshii and ASP it is.

I think if ASP is scum his buddy would be tentatively off the tenshii wagon, waiting to decide whether or not to bus.

I think if tenshii was scum his buddy would either call the wagon bad (which wouldn't be too difficult imo) or just bus.

[Infinity 324]

i think any talk about how scumbuddies would act is null after the Tenshi voting Gamma/me point was brought up

Which point?

[Infinity 324]

T--->S in a vacuum

wisdom, leon, tenshii, ASP, creature, s_s, gamma

I think ASP is town because the only partner that makes much sense is creature and even that is weak. I don't think creature is very likely to hard tr his partner here. So scum teams from most to least likely:

gamma/s_s, s_s/creature, gamma/tenshii, gamma/creature, s_s/tenshii

[Infinity 324]

A lot happened all of a sudden. My weak vote on Tenshii is outdated now, I don't see him as likely scum.

UNVOTE: Tenshii

@Infinity:

What's your case on S_S?

He did towny stuff early on, and hasn't done much since-- a common scum strategy

He pushed to end the day when it didn't see necessary to me

i think any talk about how scumbuddies would act is null after the Tenshi voting Gamma/me point was brought up

Which point?

You forgot already? The point I didnt realize until you brought it up, that Tenshi voting me/Gamma made Gamma likely town

After that was mentioned I could see scum voting their buddy's pair on purpose so clearing scumpairs based on that is bad

Imo that point is pretty obvious, so bringing me it up changed nothing. It's just like bussing in a normal game.

[Infinity 324]

Tenshii went to L-1 and I haven't seen anything overtly scummy from him.

@Inf:

If Gamma is your #1 SR, why are you voting S_S?

VOTE: gamma

Idk, I wanted to get a wagon going with creature

And it didn't work out

[Infinity 324]

Imo that point is pretty obvious, so bringing me it up changed nothing. It's just like bussing in a normal game.

that's really bullshit

It's bullshit that scum voting in this game is the same as bussing in other games?

Do you realize how confbiased you are right now

[Infinity 324]

Tenshii went to L-1 and I haven't seen anything overtly scummy from him.

Then why did you vote him?

PoE, I felt that the Tenshii/ASP pair was the best option at the time. I didn't have any strong scumreads and I thought/think that you/Gamma is a town pair.

Who is scum then

[Infinity 324]

Imo that point is pretty obvious, so bringing me it up changed nothing. It's just like bussing in a normal game.

that's really bullshit

It's bullshit that scum voting in this game is the same as bussing in other games?

Do you realize how confbiased you are right now

good, i like confbiasing on scum

What a pleasant player to work with

[Infinity 324]

So I didn't like Creature putting Tenshii at L-1 as a "pressure vote" without a read, and now the last few pages of Infinity's posting have happened. I have difficulty reading Inf, but he looks like he's flailing around at the moment, and not in the way a townie would. Demanding Gamma to figure out a likely scumbuddy for Inf really strikes me as a scummy defense too. It's a stalling tactic, it's trying to get players to ignore Inf's scummy behavior, and Inf busted it out when Gamma was only the second player to vote for him, so Inf seems really scared of a wagon forming on him. I don't like Creature either, so this is the pair I'd prefer to see flip.

VOTE: Infinity

That's L-1.

Lol the gamma thing wasn't a defense. I wanted to see gamma's thought process. Normally people question their top scumreads, you know?

I agree with wisdom that this post is scummy

Let's lynch leon/s_s

[Infinity 324]

We should really wait for ASP's and tenshii's opinions on this. Also, does anyone townread the leon/s_s pair? Given how willing creature is to sacrifice himself you have to be really sure to lynch us fypov.

[Infinity 324]

s_s, what specifically about my play is similar to my scum game?

[Infinity 324]

holy thread explosion jesus christ

for Wisdom to be scum here means that he'd have to have gotten inside my head and make me get pings from both Tenshii and Infinity before he even pointed them out... and if I trust that he's town I can probably trust his townread on Gamma.

so yeah obviously I agree that this is Infinity's scumgame; I'll hammer if neither of them have anything more to say.

Ugh but I'm having paranoia on Wisdom like he very well could have been bussing Tenshii :/ and I know my pair is probably going after a scumflip and I don't really mind so I can say whatever of that crap I want but I don't feel 100% confident betting the game on Wisdom's alignment yet. I'm still ready and willing to hammer though. (Or maybe we should wait for ASP?)

This post looks LAMIST and forced

I think s_s is scum, if he's not then leon probably is. Gamma is the most likely partner for either one, tenshii would be next likely.

@s_s what's your read on leon

[Infinity 324]

We should really wait for ASP's and tenshii's opinions on this.

Also, does anyone townread the leon/s_s pair? Given how willing creature is to sacrifice himself you have to be really sure to lynch us fypov.

Stalling.

Lol you think ending the day with one person barely having posted at all and another not having commented on a significant chunk of the thread is a good thing?

I always like to use all the time we have (and I'd probably fake that as scum too).

[Infinity 324]

s_s, what specifically about my play is similar to my scum game?

the fact that it pings my gut EVERYWHERE

and you seem to be more interested in pushing agendas than actually figuring things out.

@s_s what's your read on leon

if someone in your pair is scum, then likely scum. if neither person in your pair is scum, then I'll need to look more in depth before coming to a conclusion.

Which agendas have I been trying to push? How have I not been trying to figure stuff out? Imo I've made more effort to figure things out than anyone else in the game.

Why does leon's vote look more to you like a bus than an opportunistic vote on a town pair?

[Infinity 324]

We should really wait for ASP's and tenshii's opinions on this.

Also, does anyone townread the leon/s_s pair? Given how willing creature is to sacrifice himself you have to be really sure to lynch us fypov.

Stalling.

Lol you think ending the day with one person barely having posted at all and another not having commented on a significant chunk of the thread is a good thing?

I always like to use all the time we have (and I'd probably fake that as scum too).

You tried to present your self-serving stalling tactic as some objective pro-town thing. I don't think arbitrarily waiting until deadline is useful, it just stalls games out and causes people to lose interest in the game. I'm not interested in waiting for ASP to come back when we are ready to lynch, that's just going to stall the game out with no town benefit.

I'm not in a rush to lynch, and I'm not opposed to waiting for Tenshii if S_S doesn't want to hammer yet, but I saw scummy behavior so I pointed it out.

And you're trying to present stalling as scummy when there's no reason scum would do it and town wouldn't. You think I'd want to rush a town lynch?

I think the benefit of waiting for ASP to come back would be to get another opinion on the game state, and to get a better read on ASP. If you disagree, that's fine, that doesn't make me scum.

[Infinity 324]

Which agendas have I been trying to push? How have I not been trying to figure stuff out? Imo I've made more effort to figure things out than anyone else in the game.

Why does leon's vote look more to you like a bus than an opportunistic vote on a town pair?

You tried to push Wisdom as scum until you realized nobody was ever going to go along with it. Then you tried to push Gamma instead. All the while you're calling me scum and Tenshii town.

And you're doing these things somewhat independent of your actual purported scumhunting.

The thing with Leon is the Wisdom/Tenshii theory makes a scary amount of sense and seeing a scumflip outside of them would relieve me immensely. If one of you is scum, Wisdom is almost certainly town because as scum he would have had no reason to redirect the lynch off of Tenshii and onto you.

So if you or Creature flips scum, it's sort of PoE but I think lynching Leon and Tenshii should win in any event.

I'm scum because I...called different people scum, and tried to sort outside of them? What?

I don't get why people townread gamma

[Infinity 324]

Our lover PT can be released

That was an...interesting game. I really don't see why creature suicided there. Like, even if creature was declared conf town, I still would've been lynched, so you'd just want to have 1 less vote on me and try to defend me. I treated creature as essentially confirmed town after he voted me for just that reason.

I still don't understand why people townread gamma but I'm glad you were correct.

Sorry wisdom about insulting your thinking, I got frustrated.

[Infinity 324]

I guess this game shows the issues with the setup despite 50% EV. I don't think town (possibly including myself) player very well

I wonder if there's anything I did wrong in particular, or anything I could do differently to get townread more, or if that's just something I should accept.

[Infinity 324]

I guess this game shows the issues with the setup despite 50% EV. I don't think town (possibly including myself) player very well

I mean, if town can correctly identify a town-town pair, the EV is 100%. And we did, so I don't think town played badly where it counted.

I think a lot of that was luck tbh. Sheeping wisdom...he was wrong on 2 of his scumreads, so he could've been wrong about gamma. Idk, it feel like much of a deserved victory to me. Maybe that's just me though.