Micro 715: Friendly Neighbor 6 (Game Over)

[Draynth]

Pseudovote: Draynth

long time no see

Hiya!

PregameVote: MarioManiac4

OMGUS

[Draynth]

So this was an interesting start to a game.

I think I disagree with the point that just because Gamma claimed VT means that he's probably town. Sure it means that he can't claim a PR role in order to force the real one out, however he's hardly going to claim a PR (as scum) in that situation. VT is by far the safest thing to claim at this point.

I'm not saying he should be scum read for it, but I would take it with a pinch of salt.

[Draynth]

I'm definitely reading Gamma as neutral leaning town as of now. Roleclaiming so early in the game may not necessarily point towards town but in my opinion it points more towards town than it does mafia. It just seems way too early for mafia to claim. It seems more like a last resort to me.

I'm not really sure what to think of those still voting for Gamma. I'm definitely squinting at them but as of now I'm not really confortable reading them as town or scum. I'm interested to hear the answers they have to Alchemist's questions and maybe a more thorough explanation as to why they are still voting for Gamma. (@MarioManiac4 @Flubbernugget)

Yeah, I'm mildly suspicious of people still voting Gamma after this, but I want to dig down at their intent rather than just slap reads on them too early. Also I feel like people are looking too much at the claim itself rather than the timing of it. Draynth's post is talking only about the claim and seems to miss my point of the timing. There's also the point that Gamma wasn't even going to try to fight this lynch, which I don't think anyone other than flubber has even come close to addressing.

Right, good point.
After thinking about it I agree that it seems unlikely that scumGamma would claim so early without intent, however he himself brought up the fact that he had previously been quicklynched in a micro game so I'm not sure. It could either be frustrated town trying to make sure the same thing didn't happen again or panicky scum trying to relieve the pressure.
But, as you mentioned, Gamma did very little to fight it other than the claim which kind of rules out the panicked Scum theory in my eyes.

[Draynth]

Spoiler: Really Big Quote

There's a slight tinge in everyone's heart just to lynch Gamma for the fuck of it

But being serious, it was more of a gambit to end rvs ASAP.

I don't know what to make of the unprovoked claim right now. Knowing Gamma, I honestly doubt they would claim anything other than VT as scum, so my vote stays.

Do you think scum Gamma claims prior to intent though? The actual claim isn't relevant as much as the timing of it.

Never got an answer to this btw.

I don't. But I also don't like the idea that he really thinks a wagon raced to L1 and there's no scum on it

So are you still voting him because you think he's scum or because you think he's wrong?

I think he is wrong and scum read him as a result

wrong =/= scum

Why do you think scumGamma makes that argument and not TownGamma? It feels like you're trying to justify keeping your vote on him instead of tying to critically analyze him.

VOTE: Flubbernugger

Agree with this

VOTE: Flubbernugget

Spoilered it for you
- Ari

[Draynth]

Woops, didn't mean to quote all of that, apologies

[Draynth]

Spoiler: Really Big Quote

There's a slight tinge in everyone's heart just to lynch Gamma for the fuck of it

But being serious, it was more of a gambit to end rvs ASAP.

I don't know what to make of the unprovoked claim right now. Knowing Gamma, I honestly doubt they would claim anything other than VT as scum, so my vote stays.

Do you think scum Gamma claims prior to intent though? The actual claim isn't relevant as much as the timing of it.

Never got an answer to this btw.

I don't. But I also don't like the idea that he really thinks a wagon raced to L1 and there's no scum on it

So are you still voting him because you think he's scum or because you think he's wrong?

I think he is wrong and scum read him as a result

wrong =/= scum

Why do you think scumGamma makes that argument and not TownGamma? It feels like you're trying to justify keeping your vote on him instead of tying to critically analyze him.

VOTE: Flubbernugger

Agree with this

VOTE: Flubbernugget

Spoilered it for you
- Ari

Thanks ^^

Flubbernugget isn't scummy.
Gamma and BTD6 are, to some extent

You've given your reasoning for Gamma being scummy to you, what about BTD?

[Draynth]

UNVOTE: Flubbernugget
I want to think about this more I think

[Draynth]

Making a post now, preemptive pdodge

[Draynth]

Without stating. It's in towns best interest to explain your reasoning thats why I think it's scummy.

Not in town's best interest does not equal scummy.

Not to mention that you turned around and gave a reason in 173 why withholding reasons might be in town's interest.

Your right, It's not scummy my bad UNVOTE:

At the time you thought it was scummy (I know you don't anymore, that's not my point) so why

did

you do the exact same thing?

[Draynth]

VOTE: Danny

I'm starting to sense a pattern here...

[Draynth]

VOTE: Danny

I'm starting to sense a pattern here...

What is it?

I was referring to the fact that this was the 3rd or 4th naked vote in a row, to be honest I thought it was sarcasm at first

[Draynth]

you know what

I hardclaim Friendly Neighbor.

Now I'm an innocent child, like in Matrix6 with BP. And if Mafia choose to kill me tonight, the other PR gets another night. I don't think this game really solves the will to claim at all.

Now I will use my 99% towniness to direct y'all to vote Alchemist!

Why did you feel the need to claim at this point? I get that you want to pressure Alchemist but surely there are better ways to do that than to create a 50/50 chance that you're going to get NK'd on night 1 (Assuming that in the JK setup you get jailed).

Spoiler: Gif Quote

Who's scum, Alchemist?

I still think Flubber's scum. I had you as possible scum but was giving you a bit of a pass because I remember playing with you in the past and thinking you were a VI for some reason, and your play here is telling me that's still true.

I lol'd

like, most of your posts are long and analyzing, but even though I see analysis, I don't see how it affects your reads. If you could post something like "you and Flubbernugget are weak scum reads while Gamma and Raya are weak Town. Most others are near nullish.", I think that would help with trying to read you.
(Also, I'm pretty much confirmed town. )

I was referring to your play rather than your claim.

You are near-confTown from your claim, but I got a weak scumread from your actual play.

With this post you receive the rare double-IGMEOU

I was about to ask what the hell IGMEOU meant but then I say the emoji tag in the post and felt dumb

[Draynth]

To be honest I'm thinking Draynth is town just for 100. I missed Draynth asking me why I claimed earlier. I believe it's beneficial for townies to be able to confirm 2 players as town on d1- especially considering I was not being townread at the time of my claim.

Scum are basically forced to NK me, unless they want to leave conftown alive.

This gives room for more capable players and PRs to do their thing in the Night phase.) In return, I will ask you (Draynth); why did you want to ask me why I claimed? I don't think it would help you with scumhunting?

The bolded is what I figured will happen and I wasn't sure if that was beneficial for town or not, you explained why you think it is in the following line so my question has been answered (It wasn't really to help me with scumhunting, I just wanted an insight in your thought process behind the claim)

[Draynth]

Going to reread the game so far, really not sure what I think at the moment

[Draynth]

THAT IS L-1

So people can't use 'I didn't know' as an excuse

[Draynth]

Hoping to post a readslist / thoughts tomorrow, started a new job today and didn't the time I hoped I would have. Apologies for the lurking

[Draynth]

Holy crap I didn't realise the deadline was that close, doing my post now.

[Draynth]

Order is Town to Scum, Top to Bottom.

Spoiler: MarioManiac4 (As ConfTown as someone can be at this point in time)

Made you look

Spoiler: Alchemist21 (Strong TownLean)

Strong townlean on Alchemist at the moment. He's interacting with people, asking questions, trying to draw conclusions from the answers etc.
I also think it's important to note that I think Town players are more likely to get frustrated if people are refusing to engage with them.
I reckon scum would (usually) just let it slide and not want to get into too much of a debate over it and just stick with pushing on easier targets (If I'm wrong about this let me know, It's what I would probably do so that influences it a bit).
That being said I'm easily persuaded by people who just post walls / post a lot so I'll try to focus on the actual content of the posts

Spoiler: Raya36 (TownLean)

Raya seems to be interacting with people, asking questions, giving reasoning for opinions etc.
I disagree with her scumreads on Danny / Flubber, BUT I think her reasoning for the reads is good.

Spoiler: Something_Smart (Slight TownLean)

SS seems frustrated that he is struggling to scumhunt this game (or was, opinion may have changed) which to me is a good sign for now.
His last few posts have felt town-motivated to me.

Spoiler: Flubbernugget (Slight TownLean)

I think something that's been overlooked is the fact that Flubber made a good job of moving the game out of RVS pretty fast (Not just him on the Gamma wagon at the start but you get the idea) which to me seems town-motivated. Scum are probably happy to enough to just mess around for as long as possible.
I strongly dislike how unwilling / short Flubber has been about explaining his read on Danny, perhaps he sees something that he doesn't want to share, I think he's just being awkward for the sake of it. It's anti-town but I don't see scum doing it (Gut)

Spoiler: iDannyBoy (Slight Town Lean / Null)

I think I like what Danny has posted so far, there just hasn't been a whole lot (Ironic, right?).
At the very least he's giving reasoning for his opinions.

Spoiler: Gamma Emerald (Slight Scum Lean)

Gamma has been posting a lot. A lot of it has been off topic / joking (I have no issue with this, just pointing it out for my own sake.) The rest of the posts have been questions that haven't gone anywhere and statements with no real reasoning.
That's about it

Spoiler: BTD6_Maker (ScumLean)

I townread him at first (First 9 ISO posts or so) as he seemed to be interacting with people, questioning reasoning yada yada.
However, his last few posts haven't sat well with me.
Someone pointed out (I can't remember who, it was less than a page ago, leave me alone I'm tired) that he seems very eager to make sure people know that his ideas were independent (Despite saying he knew people had already made the exact same points). But, if a point has been made before then and it is made again, it

must

be unoriginal, no? (Not saying this is a bad thing, just pointing it out). Unless the point is actually different or presented in a different way I fail to see why he would care so much about trying to prove that he didn't just decide to agree with the ideas.
I believe Mario made the good point that many scum will try to pass off points as their own for Towncred instead of agreeing with the same points that have already been made, and I think this could hold true here.

Note: I did this by just going through people's ISO so apologies if there's any vital context missing anywhere, feel free to challenge

[Draynth]

VOTE: BTD6_Maker

Happy with this for now.

[Draynth]

Anyway I'm going to bed, I'll read the thread throughout the day and hopefully respond to some posts tomorrow evening.

[Draynth]

Anyway I'm going to bed, I'll read the thread throughout the day and hopefully respond to some posts tomorrow evening.

I had to resist the urge to vote you for making me look.

Hehe

Also could you look back and my points about Something Smart and read our interaction and tell me what you think?

Spoilered it since there's a lot of long quotes, sorry if it's wall-like

Spoiler: @Alchemist

VOTE: Gamma
I honestly don't know where to start here so I'll start on the Mario wagon.

Looking back through Something Smart's posts I don't think this is genuine. He's been pointing out things he finds suspicious in his earlier posts, so I don't see how he could come in with no idea of where to start. Especially when you consider that his vote went on someone he already voiced suspicion on, it seems more like he wanted to place a vote with the safe and easy reason that the person was on the claimed Friendly Neighbor's wagon.

Townies do suspicious things all the time (and my vote is on one of the players I pointed out as being suspicious so I don't know what you expected).

Speaking of suspicious, I see you suspecting me using the safe and easy reason of suspecting me for using the safe and easy reason of having voted the claimed FN to suspect Gamma. (That was supposed to sound clever but instead it just sounds convoluted.)

This post feels weird to me. He starts off by justifying what he did by saying 'Townies do suspicious things all the time'. I think if it was genuine then wouldn't he argue that it's not suspicious given the circumstances? It's strange that he just accepts it and tries to discredit your point instead of (directly) defending himself.

and my vote is on one of the players I pointed out as being suspicious

I know that and mentioned as much. The fact that you come in and act like you have no clue where to start when you had several suspicions to work with is what pings me, and the suspicion is strengthened by you voting Gamma with your "no idea where to start" thing when you had established suspicions of them. If you already had those to work then it tells me you were lying about not knowing where to start to try to keep your hands clean.

Townies do suspicious things all the time

Your point being?

The first point is a good one I think, I thought something similar when I read it first.

My point is that I'm not going to call someone scum just for doing a few things that seem suspicious. (I need something more concrete which I haven't found this game yet.) And if I vote someone just for being suspicious, then I know from experience that that will inevitably lead to confbias.

I'd like to not be voting now but I felt like not enough was happening and when that's the case more vote changes is often a solution to that.

So when the fuck do you plan on calling people scum? Do you just not scumhunt? And again, this still doesn't explain how someone with suspicions on players can claim they have no idea where to start when placing their vote.

If you plan on calling people scum then you're doing it wrong. (Or you're scum.) Just because it's been 10 days doesn't make the 13 pages of mostly pointless bickering this game is any easier to read and it doesn't mean everyone has a duty to have a strong scumread.

That said, the last paragraph of this post sets off alarm bells for me:

I want this more than Flubber now, though I could switch back to flubber. Flubber does seem like he's trying to get his last thoughts out which is Towny, but I'm still wary because after I said accepting the lynch is more likely to come from Town with Gamma, I'm not going to say it's impossible scum could be trying to emulate that behavior.

First sentence feels like scum keeping options open rather than town having organic read changes. Second sentence is incredibly shallow and feels very logical and robotic for somebody supposedly afraid of being pocketed.
VOTE: Alchemist

I disagree with the point about 'keeping his options open'. Alchemist scumreading you doesn't impact his read on Flubber at all, hell you can both be scum. Since he's scumreading both of you it makes sense to be willing to lynch either, and it makes sense to want to lynch one more than the other depending on the strength of the scumreads.

As for BTD, I get the point of him making such an effort of stating his thoughts were original despite them being the same points others made. It also felt like he was dodging my question when he actually did start responding to me. His latest posts though actually do give me the impression that he's Town not playing as well as he could, though I can still see why scum might do the things he's doing. Before today I would have compromised on him without much hesitation, but that's admittedly mostly because of the whole "he ignored me" thing and his latest posts are giving me pause.

Your first point on flubber is a fair point and something I didn't really think about before. I'm less sure on him now than I was but could probably still vote there.

I'm treating Gamma as obvTown since the RVS wagon happened, and while I disagree with you on the read there I looked back at your posts about him and can see where you're coming from.

I was gonna say something about you Townreading multiple people for the same generic reasons but from your phrasing it seems you realize it and that those reasons don't automatically make someone Town. It's also the kind of thing I wouldn't be surprised to see come from Town, especially if they had to go through multiple posts in a short time, so I'm thinking you're Town here.

Can I ask what your case against Flubber is? Think I'm just missing it in your ISO
I forgot to consider that whole early claim situation in the readslist, I think I commented on it before, but I'll think about it again and see if it impacts the read on the slot.

[Draynth]

Right, my bad.

I also disagree with not wanting to vote someone just because Townies do suspicious things then.

[Draynth]

So with flubber it goes back to 90. Your point about him getting us out of RVS was something I didn't really think about because I was looking at what was going on in the aftermath of the L-1.

Ah ok, wasn't sure if it was something other than that

[Draynth]

Scum Lean
-Dany Very little actual content coming from Dany and I still don't like his recent sheepiness. I did find one post of his that included some reads although the two town reads were only because of claims and that was the only reasoning given. He doesn't appear to be even trying to scumhunt to me.
-Flubber 132 sums up my read on Flubber pretty well. Since then besides his defence posts to 132 nearly every post was only 1 sentence long and had little to no game advancing content.

Neutral/Unsure
-SS
-BTD6
-Draynth - Interested in their reads list promised for today
-Gamma

Town Lean
-MM4
-Alchemist


I would be happy voting for either of my two scum leans.

You say that you scumread Flubber due to his unwillingness to advance the game. why did this make you think he was scum as opposed to just lazy town?

why

exactly

were you unsure of SS / BTD / me / Gamma, you also mentioned you were interested in the reads list I promised but you didn't comment on it at all.

[Draynth]

Spoiler: Accidental quote

Without stating. It's in towns best interest to explain your reasoning thats why I think it's scummy.

Not in town's best interest does not equal scummy.

Not to mention that you turned around and gave a reason in 173 why withholding reasons might be in town's interest.

Your right, It's not scummy my bad UNVOTE:

At the time you thought it was scummy (I know you don't anymore, that's not my point) so why

did

you do the exact same thing?

I thought it was different when I was doing it.

Since your voting me you must think I'm scummier than GE, why is that?

Anyway, while I'm waiting for answers from Raya, I think it'd be naive to think that there were no scum at all on the Flubber lynch, so right now I think there was at least one. Removing Mario, that leaves Alchemist, Gamma, Raya and Something_Smart.
who do the four of you think is scum and why?

I edited the quote into spoiler for ya - Ari

[Draynth]

woops, didn't mean to quote that

[Draynth]

You say that you scumread Flubber due to his unwillingness to advance the game. why did this make you think he was scum as opposed to just lazy town?

why

exactly

were you unsure of SS / BTD / me / Gamma, you also mentioned you were interested in the reads list I promised but you didn't comment on it at all.

I didn't think Flubber was just lazy town because of the amount he was posting. He clearly wasn't too lazy to check the thread and catch up and post so I thought it would be more likely he was scum posting to appear active and helpful while really not being that.

I disagree with this. It's very easy to catch up with somewhat pointless posts, I used to do it a ton because I was lazy and flaky. It's anti-town sure, he's not helping catch scum, but I really don't think it's a scummy thing to do (there's a fine line between anti-town and scummy in this case imo).

As for why I'm unsure about my neutral/unsure reads it's for the most part simply because nothing posted has pinged me either way. I'm not getting any scum or town vibes strong enough to put them under either section. (Gamma reasoning below)

I find it hard to believe that over 19 pages of material you didn't see anything noteworthy at all for 4 players.

I was mainly interested in your reads list so I could get a better read on you. I never responded because I didn't have much to say on it other than I like your points and I'm getting a bit of a town lean from you.

Ok, cool, then say that! You say below that you don't like the fact that Gamma doesn't really respond to the answers he got, but didn't you do the same thing in this case? I know you didn't ask for it specifically but you did mention that you were interested in what would come of it.

What bumped Gamma back down to unsure in your reads?

I'm getting really mixed vibes since that post. I like that he's asking questions and encouraging discussion but he doesn't seem to be sharing much of his own reads or trying very hard to scumhunt.

Fair enough

[Draynth]

Spoilered each point since there's lots of big(ish) quotes and it would get very messy and hard to read without them

Spoiler:

Without stating. It's in towns best interest to explain your reasoning thats why I think it's scummy.

But you didn't state reasons either. I definitely agree it's in Town's best interests to state reasoning but I disagree on it being scummy. Even though they shouldn't, Town make naked votes pretty frequently - far too often to be able to just slap scumreads on everyone who does it. I mean, even you did it. If you're Town, you already have solid evidence that Town does it.

I didn't give a reason because I wanted to see if he would say anything about my lack of reason.

'I'm scumreading this person for doing X, but I'm going to do X to see if they scumread me for it'

- I'm sorry but I fail to see how this is helpful in the slightest, I think you're just full of crap here and are trying to cover your tracks.

Spoiler:

Without stating. It's in towns best interest to explain your reasoning thats why I think it's scummy.

Not in town's best interest does not equal scummy.

Not to mention that you turned around and gave a reason in 173 why withholding reasons might be in town's interest.

Your right, It's not scummy my bad UNVOTE:

At the time you thought it was scummy (I know you don't anymore, that's not my point) so why

did

you do the exact same thing?

I thought it was different when I was doing it.

Since your voting me you must think I'm scummier than GE, why is that?

I think the bolded speaks for itself, seems ridiculous to me

Spoiler:

Dany, who's scum?

I am awaiting the answer to this question. People who are not iDanyBoy may also answer it.

Something_Smart his vote seems random and it doesn't feel like his looking for scum

Ok cool, you gave some reasons. Why not vote for him now then? You weren't voting anyone else at this point. This feels like you're afraid to actually push forward with your 'read' which is a scummy thing to do.

ok I'm feeling more town on Alchemist and I don't like to sheep but I'm pretty sure this is like the perfect time to sheep so
VOTE: iDanyBoy

You vote me for sheeping while sheeping?
I agree with a lot of what Alchemist is posting (280) and didn't have much to add onto that, this is also making me see him as a townie.

What it is is I can't lock onto any scumreads and I feel useless.

I'd like to know what changed your vote from Alchemist to me?

Because Mario seemed like an easy lynch and easy lynches that are town are prime places for scum to vote, especially when the overall state of the game is slow.

What makes you think he was an easy lynch? He only had two votes on him at that time and I unvoted shortly after.

VOTE: SS
He switches his votes from people to people with very little reasoning and his responses' to Alchemist seem like scum.

You eventually voted him here, but this was 2 days and ~50 posts later.

Spoiler:

Town - GE , Alchemist
Scum - BTD-6, SS(stronger scumread)

It bothers me that you gave no reasoning for any of these (with the exception of SS in your iso)

Spoiler:

Town - GE , Alchemist
Scum - BTD-6, SS(stronger scumread)

What's your reason for BTD? I don't see anything about him in your ISO.

like a lot what bothers me so much is that you care about making your argument independently and making sure everyone knows it's independent etc.
i feel like you're more about presentation than substance at this point

This, I don't see him scum hunting and when he doesn't feel authentic.

Why did you feel the need to specifically quote Mario here just to make your point?

[Draynth]

Spoilered each point since there's lots of big(ish) quotes and it would get very messy and hard to read without them

Spoiler:

Without stating. It's in towns best interest to explain your reasoning thats why I think it's scummy.

But you didn't state reasons either. I definitely agree it's in Town's best interests to state reasoning but I disagree on it being scummy. Even though they shouldn't, Town make naked votes pretty frequently - far too often to be able to just slap scumreads on everyone who does it. I mean, even you did it. If you're Town, you already have solid evidence that Town does it.

I didn't give a reason because I wanted to see if he would say anything about my lack of reason.

'I'm scumreading this person for doing X, but I'm going to do X to see if they scumread me for it'

- I'm sorry but I fail to see how this is helpful in the slightest, I think you're just full of crap here and are trying to cover your tracks.

Spoiler:

Without stating. It's in towns best interest to explain your reasoning thats why I think it's scummy.

Not in town's best interest does not equal scummy.

Not to mention that you turned around and gave a reason in 173 why withholding reasons might be in town's interest.

Your right, It's not scummy my bad UNVOTE:

At the time you thought it was scummy (I know you don't anymore, that's not my point) so why

did

you do the exact same thing?

I thought it was different when I was doing it.

Since your voting me you must think I'm scummier than GE, why is that?

I think the bolded speaks for itself, seems ridiculous to me

Spoiler:

Dany, who's scum?

I am awaiting the answer to this question. People who are not iDanyBoy may also answer it.

Something_Smart his vote seems random and it doesn't feel like his looking for scum

Ok cool, you gave some reasons. Why not vote for him now then? You weren't voting anyone else at this point. This feels like you're afraid to actually push forward with your 'read' which is a scummy thing to do.

ok I'm feeling more town on Alchemist and I don't like to sheep but I'm pretty sure this is like the perfect time to sheep so
VOTE: iDanyBoy

You vote me for sheeping while sheeping?
I agree with a lot of what Alchemist is posting (280) and didn't have much to add onto that, this is also making me see him as a townie.

What it is is I can't lock onto any scumreads and I feel useless.

I'd like to know what changed your vote from Alchemist to me?

Because Mario seemed like an easy lynch and easy lynches that are town are prime places for scum to vote, especially when the overall state of the game is slow.

What makes you think he was an easy lynch? He only had two votes on him at that time and I unvoted shortly after.

VOTE: SS
He switches his votes from people to people with very little reasoning and his responses' to Alchemist seem like scum.

You eventually voted him here, but this was 2 days and ~50 posts later.

Spoiler:

Town - GE , Alchemist
Scum - BTD-6, SS(stronger scumread)

It bothers me that you gave no reasoning for any of these (with the exception of SS in your iso)

Spoiler:

Town - GE , Alchemist
Scum - BTD-6, SS(stronger scumread)

What's your reason for BTD? I don't see anything about him in your ISO.

like a lot what bothers me so much is that you care about making your argument independently and making sure everyone knows it's independent etc.
i feel like you're more about presentation than substance at this point

This, I don't see him scum hunting and when he doesn't feel authentic.

Why did you feel the need to specifically quote Mario here just to make your point?

@Spoiler 3 I didn't find him scummy enough to vote at 282 but by 321 I felt my read was strong enough for a vote.

@Spoiler 4 I have given reasoning for 3 of them apart from BTD-6 already.

@Spoiler 5

Because that's my biggest concern with him and didn't want to present his reasoning as my own when I'm accusing BTD-6 of doing the same.

I accept the first 2 points you made.[/b]

The 3rd is blatantly contradicting your earlier thought process. You scumread MM for voting without a reason, you then voted him without stating any reasoning and later said this:

I didn't give a reason because I wanted to see if he would say anything about my lack of reason.

VOTE: iDannyBoy

[Draynth]

You didn't want to do the same thing are scumreading BTD for, but you that's exactly what you did when you voted for SS.

[Draynth]

@Mod: I'm voting for Danny!

You saw nothing!

[Draynth]

That's not what I'm saying.

In 137 you cast a naked vote on MM. When pushed on the naked vote, you claimed that you were scumreading him because of his naked voting, which is hypocritical.

Yet when I asked about why you needed to quote Mario to make your point on BTD, you didn't want to be hypocritical and do the same thing you are scumreading him for.

BTD also hasn't posted in like 5 days (including 2 and a half being night phase), he's lurking a worrying amount right now.

[Draynth]

I'm voting for you because you're flip flopping and being generally wishy washy.

[Draynth]

You see that's the point, he's had ample opportunity to mention the difference and he hasn't. This leads me to believe he is scum trying to get away with it.

Yeah, I did. The claim combined with the 'WEEEE, Let's get quicklynched again...' post leads me to believe he is probably town, but my point about him not really doing much still stands in my mind.

[Draynth]

You see that's the point, he's had ample opportunity to mention the difference and he hasn't. This leads me to believe he is scum trying to get away with it.

No, I tried explaining it to you in this post but then you changed your argument in this post. That's is the third time you changed your reasoning for voting me in short succession.

VOTE: Draynth

You flip flopped from being hypocritical to not being hypocritical without stating why and trying to pass it off as you simply being towny

482 was as a result of your responses to the original flip-flop

[Draynth]

You flip flopped from being hypocritical to not being hypocritical without stating why and trying to pass it off as you simply being towny

I don't understand how that is a 'flip-flop'. Your argument doesn't make sense.

Originally, you did X.
Later on, you did the opposite of X without saying why which seems like you are trying to get away with doing X before.
If you were town, you would A) Use consistent logic as from your POV it makes sense or B)Acknowledge your logic was incorrect (And don't you dare quote 184)

[Draynth]

I would really love it if someone else (other than Alchemist) would weigh in on this and let me know if I'm completely crazy or not, everyone seems to be lurking today

[Draynth]

@Raya and @Gamma

Can you two tell me who you each believe to be scum (or town, doesn't matter)

and why

?
Right now you're purely posting to answer questions directed at you, lurking will not help us find scum.

[Draynth]

or B)Acknowledge your logic was incorrect (And don't you dare quote 184)

So quick question, why is 184 invalid for point B? It seems to me that's what he was doing in 184.

I was referring to the logic of doing the same thing you're scumreading someone for as opposed to the specific point over which he was hypocritical, if that makes sense

[Draynth]

UNVOTE: iDanyBoy
I think I got really caught up in finding inconsistencies that I didn't think about the motive of it enough, I want to get my thoughts straight for a bit, I feel I might be not making any sense.

It seems like everyone has 1/2 set scumreads and isn't really engaging with people other than the occasional questioning post. Town players, you need to start convincing me / others that your reads are correct and why. Simply saying 'It's in my ISO' doesn't help to further the game. Try to make your reads more solid if you can, I know personally, it'd help me a lot with distinguishing between disinterested town and lurking scum.

[Draynth]

EBWOP: I understand that people are busy with exams etc., I'm not trying to shame you for prioritising real world stuff over an online forum game; just wanted to make that clear.

[Draynth]

I'd like to know your thoughts on BTD and SS as well as if you have a draynth read now

@Raya and @Gamma

Can you two tell me who you each believe to be scum (or town, doesn't matter)

and why

?
Right now you're purely posting to answer questions directed at you, lurking will not help us find scum.

Sorry for not posting much lately. Exams... This is a really brief reads list for now. I'll explain my reasoning asap.

Town
Alchemist
Dray
Gamma

Unsure
BTD6 (Getting scum and town vibes.)

Scum
SS
Dany

@Alchemist
Anyone in specific you want me to explain my reasoning for?

Uh

[Draynth]

Oh you said anyone, not anything, sorry.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on BTD, SS and Dany if that's alright

[Draynth]

@Alchemist
Anyone in specific you want me to explain my reasoning for?

The scumreads in particular.

I just realised that Raya's scumreads feel very opportunistic

Ignoring the fact that her reasoning for putting Flubber to L-1 doesn't sit right with me, her reasoning for Dany is in 361, with no mention whatsoever if that has changed at all since(not necessarily changed alignment, but changed as in become stronger / weaker / less confident or whatever).
Her reasoning for SS is non-existent. Goes from an 'unsure' read in 361 to a scum read without mentioning him

once

. This feels like scum trying to fly under the radar by appeasing with the consensus of others.
The majority of her reads are also slight leans or unsure, which also seems like scum trying not to step on anyone's toes while appearing to take stances on people.

[Draynth]

VOTE: Raya36

[Draynth]

BTD6 -

I guess my null read mostly comes from how few posts he has so I really don't have much to base a read off of although a large portion of his posts are very content filled

. I am getting town vibes from his scumhunting although I haven't seen much that has really stood out as town to me. On the scum side he was being quite defensive when accused of sheeping which pinged me but not enough to call him scum. So for now he will be a neutral read.

If a large portion of his posts are content filled, then shouldn't you be able to at least comment / develop some sort of read other than null?

I'm happy with my vote at the minute.

[Draynth]

@GammaEmerald

What do you think of the current cases against Raya36 and BTD6_Maker (Both at L-2). Do you think either of them are scum?

[Draynth]

I'm saying that he doesn't have a lot of posts but the ones that he does have are content filled. That doesn't mean that there is enough content to get a read. I'm just saying that even though he doesn't have a lot of posts they are at least good posts. I also explained at the bottom very slight leans I was getting from him both ways so I wasn't saying that absolutely no content of his was readable.

I mean I get that you might be getting conflicted opinions of the slot, but I find it hard to believe that in the few posts he has posted 'content' you haven't quoted a single one to comment on. In fact, the

only

times you have mentioned BTD have been answering 1/2 questions he directed your way, or calling him a null read. You seem to be distancing yourself from him.

I think if Raya flips scum we should look into BTD / Raya as a scumteam; This is

highly

dependant on Raya flipping scum though.

[Draynth]

Also, although we're not under huge pressure, there's about 4 and a half days to the deadline. We need to make sure that we aren't rushing to lynch someone at the end of the day.

[Draynth]

@Mod

You may have already done so but can we get a prod on Gamma Emerald? Thanks!

[Draynth]

Welcome Vedith

I'm still strongly in favour of a Raya lynch.

[Draynth]

Currently a little voice is telling me Alchemist is scum and I'm trying to simultaneously not give in to it and not ignore it.

Strangely I have a similar voice but I think it's just me being paranoid, for now I'm just ignoring it

[Draynth]

@BTD, who are you Townreading and why? (I can already see about your scumreads and why). Or rather, let me get more specific and to the point. Are there any reads which you agree on with someone but you disagree with the other person's reasons/have your own, unique reasons?

I don'treally have strong Townreads at the moment, but I am weakly Townreading you. I have stated some reasons, such as your insistence that people give reasoning as opposed to naked votes. I also read your trying to get a response from me (about why I didn't answer past questions) as slightly Town-motivated, as it seems that if scum do that they are more likely to use it as a reason to scumread someone.

Is there anyone else you're 'weakly townreading' or are you just trying to appease Alchemist?

[Draynth]

I'm still strongly in favour of a Raya lynch.

Howcome?

You can see my case in my last few posts.

She hasn't done anything that convinces me she isn't scum

[Draynth]

She hasn't done anything since* that convinces me she isn't scum

[Draynth]

@Vedith

What are your thoughts after reading or just at the moment if you haven't read the game yet?

[Draynth]

You can see my case in my last few posts.

She hasn't done anything that convinces me she isn't scum

Okay, what has everyone else done to convince you that they are not scum?
I'll look at your posts now with this.

I'll let you read the game first.

[Draynth]

Whoever you want

A fresh set of eyes in a game can be very beneficial to finding scum, If I / anyone else were to tell you who to look into the benefits would be nullified imo.

[Draynth]

Agree with this

VOTE: Flubbernugget

What exactly did you agree with here?

That wrong =/= scum

[Draynth]

BTD is town.

Because....

That wrong =/= scum

And that was strong enough to vote Flubber?

It was page 4, so yes

[Draynth]

Because....

Because I know BTD town. This is that.

Considering this exact same thing was said in a micro I recently played, and he flipped scum, you'll excuse me for not taking you at your word.

[Draynth]

Considering this exact same thing was said in a micro I recently played, and he flipped scum, you'll excuse me for not taking you at your word.

I'm not sure I did say that?

What?

In what game exactly?

viewtopic.php?p=9234945#p9234945

You realise that I never actually disagreed with you right? You just haven't given any reasons other than Meta, why should we take that at face value.

[Draynth]

I'm trying to get better at reading btd6 because I've read him wrong in just about every single game

That's different to what I'm saying.

Read the next line

I think I have a good grasp on BTD, Trans didn't.

Fair enough

I also gave the reasoning for his scum hunting. It's not forced, his opinions are set.

You never said that.

I have more content from reading his ISO that yours or Raya's so far. Considering he has 25 posts...

All you said here is 'He has content' (Saying that he has more than me / Raya is irrelevant)

Although I find your ISO productive and pushing for game progression (something scum don't want) I prefer BTD's scum hunting,

even when he's questioning Mario's alignment when it's a generic town view. I can't see BTD doing that as scum.

This is the only reasoning you have given before your post saying you gave reasons

[Draynth]

I genuinely can't tell if you're purposely manipulating quotes or not

My response to

'I prefer BTD's scum hunting, even when he's questioning Mario's alignment when it's a generic town view. I can't see BTD doing that as scum.'

is the line below it.

The part of my post you quoted is referring to

'I have more content from reading his ISO that yours or Raya's so far. Considering he has 25 posts...'

[Draynth]

Like, saying 'I prefer BTD's scum hunting' is not helpful in the slightest.

It doesn't matter if you prefer his method to someone else's.
Saying you prefer it doesn't say why you like it at all.

[Draynth]

So why did you not question me with asking for an example? If you had an issue with what I said, of course.

See below

BTD is town.

Because....

I also gave the reasoning for his scum hunting. It's not forced, his opinions are set.

You never said that.

To be fair to you I expressed my point poorly here. I was trying to say you never gave any reasons as opposed to you never said

"It's not forced, his opinions are set

, although for the record you never said that either.

I'll tell you why, because you wasn't interest in my reasons.

This

whole

back and forth between us has been me trying to get some

specific

reasons as to why you townread BTD so strongly.
Why would I bother discussing this with you if ultimately I didn't care about your reasoning? The minute you said he was town I asked you why you thought so.

I like it because he's actually scum hunting. It's not that there's a method, it's that Raya's in non existent.

Why do you keep comparing his scum hunting to Raya's lack of scum hunting.

They have nothing to do with each other

[Draynth]

I prefer BTD's scum hunting

, even when he's questioning Mario's alignment when it's a generic town view. I can't see BTD doing that as scum.

All you said here is 'He has content' (Saying that he has more than me / Raya is irrelevant)

I siad about his scum hunting just before the bolded. Are you really trying to manipulate a comment here?

Where?

Because I know BTD town. This is that.
I have more content from reading his ISO that yours or Raya's so far. Considering he has 25 posts...
Although I find your ISO productive and pushing for game progression (something scum don't want) I prefer BTD's scum hunting, even when he's questioning Mario's alignment when it's a generic town view. I can't see BTD doing that as scum.

The first line has nothing to do with his scumhunting.
The second line has nothing to do with his scumhunting, all you said is 'He has more content than you / Raya' - Content (a very broad term) is not the same as scumhunting.
The third line, before the bolded, is talking about my ISO.

You keep comparing his scumhunting to mine / Raya's, I fail to see how this is relevant at all. All I've asked you to do is give some examples of posts that lead you to believe that BTD is town. I don't see how you're misunderstanding this so much. You've given 1 instance so far.

[Draynth]

I'm trying to get better at reading btd6 because I've read him wrong in just about every single game

That's different to what I'm saying.
I think I have a good grasp on BTD, Trans didn't.

I also gave the reasoning for his scum hunting. It's not forced, his opinions are set.

This is what I found to be missing from Raya.

You said you gave reasoning

PRIOR

to this post.

THEREFORE

,

" It's not forced, his opinions are set."

is irrelevant to the point I am making. Besides the fact that it's ridiculously vague and wishy washy, it came after you said you had already given reasoning.

THIS

is the only specific thing you had mentioned.

"I prefer BTD's scum hunting,

even when he's questioning Mario's alignment when it's a generic town view.

I can't see BTD doing that as scum."

I asked you for another example, you then spouted nonsense for an entire page.

Not once did I say I disagreed with you about your read on him, so why would I question the one 'reason' you gave. I'm trying to make sure you're not just blindly calling people town and expecting to get away with it.

Also, if you make another personal remark like that either I'm replacing out or I'm asking for you to be force replaced.

[Draynth]

I'll take you as a joke going forward.

Awesome

[Draynth]

3 days until deadline; Dany, BTD and Raya (/ her replacement when it gets here) need to get in here and give thoughts.

[Draynth]

@Something_Smart

What do you make of Raya (/ the slot since it's being replaced)

[Draynth]

I'll take any form of woo with the player list we currently have.
Don't expect the others to make this game fun for you!

Are you consciously doing this or do you genuinely not realise that you're being toxic

[Draynth]

1 day, 13 hours to the deadline.
Right now the only lynch I'm comfortable with is Raya / Sergtacos, I really don't want BTD lynched today.

[Draynth]

512, 522 and to a lesser extent 537

I don't know what to think about BTD at the moment, I just know I'm not comfortable with him being lynched.

[Draynth]

I want the above lynched.

[Draynth]

Sergtacos is being opportunistic and scummy as hell. It boggles my mind that people aren't seeing this

[Draynth]

Note how he never provided that content he promised

[Draynth]

Note how he never provided that content he promised

I got a life dude lol chill

Believe me when I say I'm town, or else I will have my town people lynch you when I flip town!

This seems believable (/s)

BTD is at L-1

@Dany, why do you think BTD is still the best lynch at this point?

@BTD, are you ever going to put down a vote? What are you current thoughts on Serg and are you willing to lynch them?

Curious though, why do you want to lynch me so bad?

He gave reasons for wanting to lynch Raya, and you haven't done anything to change / counter that reasoning. why

wouldn't

he want you lynched?

VOTE: BTD6

Because I'm town lol

Was busy and still am, but no worries though, I promise I'll read through the whole thing when I have time.

Deadline in 1 day there's not a lot of time to read. BDT6 is the best lynch though.

This is alarming to me, not a lot of time to read? I got 1 day to read, well now less than that, but still a lot of time though.

How about this, lynch BTD6 or whoever and if he flips town, you all have my consent to lynch me the next day.

Or we could lynch you now and have an extra day to play with to find your partner

Note how he never provided that content he promised

This is also alarming. A town wouldn't say this I don't believe. Everyone knows that people have their own lives to live besides playing this game. I think scums would use this to have people to go "yeah!!! he hasn't!!"

I'm perfectly aware that people have their own lives, but A) if you replace into a game then you should be ready to do a catchup and B)You promised content, but then tried to cheat your way out of it by asking for

everyone

to post their reads and reasons why. That's being lazy, and it's because you're scum.

[Draynth]

12 hours left, both wagons are at L-1

[Draynth]

Wp fellas

[Draynth]

Thanks for modding TB!

[Draynth]

Anyone have any suggestions for things I did poorly / can improve on? I feel like overall I'm quite a weak player at the minute and am trying to improve. Cheers

[Draynth]

(Besides inadvertently softing that I was a PR of course)

[Draynth]

I guess, but it also lead to the Mario kill going through which could have a bigger impact in a different situation

I've never really struggled to get people to townread me if I'm actually active in a game, but I'm still god awful at scum hunting. Thanks anyway