Micro 731 | Scumteam UnPick II - Endgame

[Scylla and Charybdis]

Hi.

This game has a very interesting setup and should be really fun.

I chose GL and Comm
Charybdis chose Duckdoggo and TheBrie

VOTE: GL

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

Why couldn't scum manipulate their picks to suit day 1 reads?
If they claim later today or today it won't change their ability to manipulate their picks. It will give us more time to look at where the possibilities are.

-Charybdis

[Scylla and Charybdis]

Scum won't be looking for who the pair could have been. They just know that they are the pair, and town are town. If they know who the pairs are, they will aim to lynch town, if they don't they will aim to lynch town in a manipulative way either side.
You mentioned 17 that you didn't want to reveal until someone is at L1. What do you feel will change between then and now? Because all I can see is the same issues that you posted happening then.
What if everyone else claims their targets, do you still think it's a bad idea if only your results haven't been said?

I also wouldn't consider someone's entire input acceptable as vote X because they have the most possible scum pairs, would you?

-Charybdis

[Scylla and Charybdis]

VOTE: Vic Sage

I guess we run him up to L1. Otherwise he could just stop wasting our time and focus and just say.

@Creature - if someone was to have submitted SergTacos as their choice, would you have counted that as invalid or counted it as Duckdoggo?

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

What is this for? Do I also give my signature so someone knows which head of duckdog was talking?

That's up to you really.
I think I can work out majority of who's posting what from you two but maybe others won't be able to.

What do you think about Vic Sage not giving his chosen names?

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

We already claimed, Comm.

-Charybdis

[Scylla and Charybdis]

UNVOTE: Vic Sage
2 more to claim. I dont care what order they do it but if they TIP toe round it I'll vote them.
Vic Sage was most likely town for it (although Charybdis disagrees) but if either of the other 2 try it I'll most likely Scum read them.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

Well, the list given in 9 is a list of all possible scum teams.
We are now all saying who we chose as scum teams to determine what scum combinations there can be.

Who did you choose as your 2 scum teams?
Once we know this, we can add it to the table and from there, going by scum reads, we can decide who to vote.

-Charybdis

[Scylla and Charybdis]

But tbh im so lost with the pairing claims and stuff like that..... can someone care to explain?

Well, the list given in 9 is a list of all possible scum teams.
We are now all saying who we chose as scum teams to determine what scum combinations there can be.

Who did you choose as your 2 scum teams?
Once we know this, we can add it to the table and from there, going by scum reads, we can decide who to vote.

*Fixed*

-Charybdis

[Scylla and Charybdis]

VOTE: Duckdoggo

Come on, give those choices.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

I'm more concerned to why Brie is such scum read to Comm.
Comm - Got history with Brie?

Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

Also @Scylla, pay close attention to my posts. I don't SR TheBrie. I TR her because it's highly unlikely she's scum and I have no real reason to SR her atm.

I was posting half asleep, and meant town, not scum.
Saying you town read someone because it's highly unlikely that they are scum is just bad imo.
It's gamblers fallacy, or whatever you call it.

The point of revealing who the picks were was to give us the possibilities of scum, not to read players from it.

I suggest you change your view on the Brie and stop acting like it's a town slot for that reason alone.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

Also, I'd like to point out that CK is basing his strategy entirely around the mechanic instead of scumhunting. Like I said would happen.

I like this post. And it just makes me think that Vic Sage is town more.
There is absolutly no reason for using the picks as a way to read someone.
We know what we can look for between scum conenctions, and the way people react to one another.

Vic - Opinion on Comm here? Do you think it's town just over stepping what the information was for, or scum motivated to appear town?

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

Gambler's fallacy. That was mentioned to me before. But you know who mentioned it? Scum. When i had multiple townies pegged and the entire scum team pegged into a smaller pool.

I do hope that the defensive stance doesn't keep up through out the game.
I'm not going to argue about what % of gamblers fallacy comes from either side, but I do expect you to start giving some serious reads and reasons going forward.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

In order to be sure that none of the people he cleared is scum, we need to either lynch scum (which would be the point of lynching based on scum/townreads) or lynch me, ap, S&C, and one of his clears, and have all of those flip town.

If these 4 flip town, we lose the game. However, if any 4 flip scum, we effectivly win.

Lynching outside of those 3 is just going to be a mislynch.

Where are you even getting this information from? Because your reads list do not match to your confidence in everyone else being town.

I'm currently waiting on Charybdis to discuss reads, as last time we spoke Charybdis thought that Vic Sage was scummy while I disagreed. I'll share our reads later tonight.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

Can you give examples why Comm is town here, Carca?
I'm considering it myself so we can share notes.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

Brie, my reasoning on S&C is a couple things. The hydra dissonance on me (it seems like they mention in every other post that one of them thinks I'm scum and the other thinks I'm town) combined with the buddy-buddy feel of the posts addressing me raises eyebrows. Additionally, 60 and 68 seem pretty aimed at pushing people at other people. 68 specifically seems to be pretty much designed to get me to vote CK. 40 and 105 also feel pretty weird to me.

CK, additionally voted based only on the mechanic after I said I thought scum might try to avoid scumhunting by doing that. That seems a little TOO ballsy for scum, which is admittedly weak reasoning but worth pointing out.

I think you are miss reading my point. I'm waiting for an update from Charybdis who wanted to vote you. I dont see you as Scum and I think I said that he and Charybdis have this difference twice. To say every other post is a huge mis rep.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

^Good points there. I think I had already mentioned that it would more sense if scum were voting them if they were town. (Why did that sentence come out so horribly? I'm supposed to be a writer and I can't even word properly.)

And I can see that with S&C. Too much dissonance. And though they're not trying to buddy me, I still don't like it.

VOTE: Scylla and Charybdis

Why would we need to be buddying you for you not to like it? This is plausibly opportunity but I'm not sold.
So tell me your opinion on each point Vic Sage as you said they were good points.

-scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

Fully half of the posts you had that had any form of scumhunting mentioned a read on me before I called you out for it. Fully 1/3 of your posts that contain scumhunting mention your hydra dissonance over me. I also think you're overestimating the strength of the read, but I'm glad my read is getting to you. I love being the center of people's universes.

So because I have you as town and my other head doesn't (didn't?) Agree that has me as Scum?
And no. At your point of this post I had 18 posts. 2 mention my other head that that isn't 1/3.
I wouldn't say your read is exactly getting to Me, I just think that the case falls short, of well, anything convincing.

To clarify, the 3 Scum reads on me are - "use of particular words", "having a different read to my other head" and "What he said".

I'm not sure I have a great deal to worry about right now. But moving on from being smug, where do you think Scum are if I flip town?

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

Which of your posts other than the 9 I linked had scumhunting content? I'm happy to admit that both CK and Brie's votes on you reek, but you do appear to have quite a bit more concern about me than I think is normal.

As far as where I'd look if you flipped town? Really? You're going to ask me to put together a plan of action that can be manipulated for an event I'm not actively attempting to initiate based on a very slight scum read? I'll probably work to figure out reads on the half of the player list I don't have a clue about if you get yourself modkilled. Barring that, I'm hoping I have quite a bit more to go on for the next lynch regardless of who gets the rope.

If I feel that someone is voting me is town, I want to attempt to change that.
Overall, Comm will be louder than you but as I'm not confident there I want to sort first before trying to reason with him. Town gain nothing if I let me town reads just call me Scum as the real Scum then just get a day 1 coast.

My point here is don't tunnel me. Right now you seem more focused on me and Doggo than all the players.
Why would I be mod killed?

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

I'd rather a replacement was just found.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

There's a reason we're the top 3 wagons.
If others think it's worth us being votes then why can't RC?

We chose my names as it's the only names we knew in the game.
We actually thought I was picking Scum teams but that's because we don't read.

So to me Brie should just be town.
I don't read this as Scum RC and GL/Vic Sage are both posting as town for me.

That leaves 3 people as Scum. Comm, Duck, and King Maker.

King Comm
Comm Duck

I'll do a proper post shortly today. Limited on time.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

Current VC?

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

S&C why did you go from attacking Comm for locking in Brie based on setup spec to using the same reasoning to townread her?

Because the difference is Comm was going with Brie being the least likely to be Scum.

While for me, she can only be Scum with me, and I'm not Scum.

There's a difference on having an unofficial clear on someone and just going by odds.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

It's more or less the time.

I town read GL and Vic just from their posting alone.
I know that you're manipate as anything, but your entire approach to the game feels town.
Brie for as explained.

Pie Doggo and King and neither have made me think town.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

PoE

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

If it's Scylla/GL I was kept around because you thought I could mislynch me, not because you planned to fool me.

You realise who I am and there fore this comment is 100% a lie, right?

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

I'm going to think about it I'm probably going to lock down my vote on RC.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

VOTE: RC

RC claiming that I was hoping to mis lynch him then back peddles.
I'm happy here.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

If GL/King don't lynch you, then it's confirmed that we lynch in us.
You should have tried to pocket me, RC, would have probably worked better.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

wait what? Does RC know who you are? How?

RC knows everything that happens on MS.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

and what happened to your Kingsmaker scumread? Can you reply to the question I've been asking you (356, 385) about why you were scumreading Kingsmaker and whether that changed with the flips?

I already answered this in 284.
It's a matter of PoE at that point.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

oh I guess this does imply RC knows who you are

RC knows I kill him in this situation as scum 10 out of 10 times.
And yet tried to play it off as I wanted to mis lynch him.

[Scylla and Charybdis]

so you think it's RC/Kings? Why'd you vote RC first?

I know RC is scum. I think King is most likely his partner.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

I'm just going to wait until you and King post together, then we can start the discussion on who gets lynched.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

I'll unvote if S&C unvotes but they're twisting my words to an incredible extent to justify their push on me and it feels really fake.
Also, this sort of hyperaggression with pushes to the point of speedvoting LyLo is far more characteristic of their scum game and their town game, where they are (relatively) far more docile.

Show where this is part of my scum game, not town game.
If you want to use my meta for how I do things, then present it. Because I have 3 games in the last month as town where I can show otherwise.

Also, why would you unvote me if I unvote you? If I'm scum to you then you shouldn't unvote, yet you are trying to reason with me to not vote you.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

I have been the only one posting on this account. So that is a poor argument. You know exactly what I'm like, and you know I wouldn't keep you alive.
Okay, show my scum games where I do this. You want to use meta, you say that I speed vote in LyLo as scum, not town.
Then show me that I do this. You want to use my meta, you show it.

Last game I did this.
viewtopic.php?f=83&t=72384

Now, present your game where I do it as scum.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

I have been the only one posting on this account.
-Scylla

Am I reading this right? The hydra isn't a hydra?
Where did that early hydra dissonance come from then?

You can see that Charybdis hasn't been posting, it's only me.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

i saw your layla deathtunnel in the game that I modded. gtfo

Okay. I death tunneled Layla mist the game.
I called you Scum yesterday be sure you are. I dont get your argument here? You said that I do this in games as Scum, the quick vote in LyLo.
You decided to make a case on me with it using meta, so present the evidence.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

I see now. Charybdis did post a few times early on and I never quite realized it was just you after that. Should have noticed. But I don't like your play either way.

I don't care if you like it, I'm still right.
And the next person to vote RC I'll town lock for the next lynch, just because Scum won't be bussing that easily.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

You still haven't provided evidence to how I play as scum, RC.
If I'm mis lynched, that's down to town being bad, not you being good, lets just get that straight for a start.
You're scum game has dropped greatly imo, and I never thought I'd see you be so stumped on a call out.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

Don't worry. I was going to wait until lynching RC, but I'm happy with having you as RC's scum buddy.

You should vote me now, both you and RC, as my reads are spot on here.
Regardless what happens, I read the game well enough to have you both as scum.

GL, just pick either me or RC, I highly doubt you are picking RC over me, but that's more on you than me, so I'm not sure what you would be waiting for here.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

I'm happy with you being Scum.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

Then vote me, GL.
There is zero reason to drag this game out. RC backing off because I called both Scum. Originally it was less of a risk when I was saying king as his partner because Brie would have still won it from them.

Either we Lynch RC and Brie (both, not just one) or you lynch me.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

fmpov you should know that I'm town and you've said several things that indicate that.

This makes no sense.
Why would I know you're town from my point if view?
Why does Scum me not kill town you?

[Scylla and Charybdis]

Feel I've been treated unfairly over what?

I have you as both Scum. I'm right and that's why you have been taken back today because you didn't expect it.

Easy money, easy game.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

If I was scum with TheBrie I literally wouldn't care about any of your posturing because I'd know you're getting lynched today and I'd just win today anyway.

We'll see. Maybe So, maybe not.
I'm on Scum, and what you say doesn't make sense with an unvote. If I'm being lynched today and you are okay with that then you would either be Scum or think of me as Scum, and with the unvote and the minor comments of my play being from town etc, I don't believe you think I'm Scum here.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

I've never self hammered as Scum as I consider that throwing 100%.
Why would I change that now?

You even know this. That game where I was Mafia and you was WW I was being lynched 100% and I never hammered.
So it's safe to say if you think I'm Scum you can vote me.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

Okay.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

why aren't you considering a GL/RC team?

Because I think it's RC/Brie.
It's plausible, but I town read you enough.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

Is Scylla type of person who would go all in after one red flag?

I find it hard to make sense of his vote, town or scum.

Same exact thing happened last time I was town in LyLo funny enough. People giving false meta is something that scum do. And the crap about RC not replacing in and pushing someone just shows that you are not experienced at all.

@GL - I wanted to have Brie think I would mis lynch while I was thinking scum there.
I mean, if you read over anything between Brie and RC, you can see there's something obvious there.

Take these for example

Brie is basically unlynchable, especially if either me or scylla die

Brie probably HAS to be the overnight nightkill in any universe

Then then

Scylla essentially clearing me in 281 still feels like scum would have said it differently with some sort of 'if RC is actually town.'

Scylla/Ducks I'd buy I guess. Scylla's still calling Ducks scum even though that lynch is autoloss for them but hasn't actually voted them.
Ducks/GL I'm writing off. there's no way that GL L-1s them and keeps the vote in autoloss when he's widely townread and can vote pretty much anywhere here.
Scylla/TheBrie I'll discuss at some other time.

Scylla/GL Scylla called GL town from very early on in the game but never explained it. almost never discusses them. least discussed person in the game by far from that slot.
Both of them excluded one scumteam from the other,

Has an opinion on the combos apart from me and Brie.

Scum you is pretty boned but your best option here is to lynch KM and hope that you can get Brie to paranoia lynch me in 3 way. If KM isn't dead you have to lynch both of us, which isn't happening.

I've seen RC play enough to know this is RC being cocky.

I don't think Brie is scum ftr. I don't think Scylla is scum either. and I think scum is way more likely to look like Scylla/GL or you/Comm than Brie/Scylla.

It's just constantly pushing as Brie town.

Right now I feel like it's GL+SC but I don't really have time to work on anything

Brie not the night kill, and doesn't question it. Pushes away from Brie.

(the gl/kings thing: I don't think Brie is scum.)

Actually TheBrie might be a good reason for any S&C scumteams to not kill me: they might have expected her to paranoia tunnel me and killing me makes Brie close to conftown.

This makes no sense - It makes no difference if RC is killed. Brie can still be scum with me. Considering RC is pushing me as scum here.

And looking at Brie's with RC, is either fake interaction or saying how RC isn't playing like scum in this game and pushing away from there.

These reasons are pretty obvious and obviously I was the only person to re read the game in LyLo.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

I think gamble part is the absolute vote and push he makes at the day start, not 1v1ing RC. 1v1ing RC is the most optimal strategy for a scum!Scylla like RC pointed out earlier, but he could have been more calm and sensible about it?

And what do you say about RC saying fake meta that I do this as scum?

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

Because it's what scum do.
They make a reason to scum read someone. I will always lynch anyone who gives false meta on me.

But you can't comment that RC couldn't present proof to the claim, even though he was trying to push it as something scum me does?
When I can prove it's actually the opposite.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

@Scylla
Assuming you are town, do you think that was the best course of action you could take? Did you not think you would have to convince 2 other town players to vote with you and did you not think going ahead with that level of assurance and aggression would bother them?

Like I said - it is not the action that is damning, it is the execution. I get your point though and I'll try to check the game you have linked.

Yes, it was 100% the right call.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

but in the very game you linked, that lead to you lynching town?

Do you think RC would lie about the meta as town to make me look scummy?
Or do you think RC lies about it as scum to make me look scummy?

I assume you have experience with RC like I do.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

Repeated insistence that I've lied about his meta when I've been super clear several times what I'm referring to.

Okay, point to me where I vote town in LyLo off the bat.
This is what you said.

I know for a fact you do shit like this as scum. I know for a fact that this isn't your towngame as I remember it from when we actually played together but I don't care whether that's changed if you're voting me anyway.

The only thing you are saying is from the game you modded.
Anyone can go read that game. It was a lost game regardless. I was 1 scum vs 7 town because my partner died.
Night actions meant that too many people were cleared. Nothing else to it.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

You have the stuff on RC and Brie. If RC really thought I was scum, and lets face it, yesterday RC wasn't calling me town, then he would be more suspect of Brie.
But instead, Brie has been pushed as town by RC all game.

Regardless what happens, I read you spot on, RC. And that just feeds my ego that majority games, you are an easy read as scum to me.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

It's 2am, I'm going to bed.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

you did call RC town on D1 though, for really weak reasons

Reads can change.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

I mean, you just called me town.
I'm not going to dig through meta that I don't know to find a game where you've spedvote as scum in LyLo however what I've seen from you in Open 645 and Bringer Mafia was you replacing in and being bad but slow and analytical and trying to understand things as town versus you hard deathtunneling Layla for no reason in the game that I modded. This leans far closer to the latter.
I'm totally willing to believe you when you claim that nowadays you pull shitty deathtunnels as town now but that doesn't mean anything to me given that you're already confscum.

Another lie. You are the one saying I'm voting you as town in LyLo.
I also have a reason to vote you, because you are lying. Why don't you use my meta properly? How I always push/lynch my scum buddy in every scum game I have ever been in? Including in the game you modded.
I guess that part doesn't support your mis lynch.

Oh look making it about my username. Where have I seen that before.
I think Brie has been relatively towny, I think S&C + TheBrie is a little weird for several reasons (though if Brie didn't want me killed it would make sense), and I had other scumreads.
I still think it's more likely that one of GL/Kings is scum with you than Brie is, but I'm willing to at least consider Brie scum.

I'm making it about you, not the name.
People that have played with you aren't stupid. There's a reason you were awarded most manipulative scum...
You haven't considered Brie all game. Lets face it.
As I said, you would have done a better job with trying to pocket me this day phase than lying about my town/scum game.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

yeah but now you're all "hahaha I read you as scum RC" despite the fact that you were basically forced to do that by virtue of the setup nearly guaranteeing that scum was in {RC, S&C}

No. It's obvious if you actually re read the game. I suggest you actually do it.
What's RC's reason as me scum? Because I wanted to mis lynch him instead of night kill him? How can you say that my reasoning is lacking?

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

The function of the setup makes bussing on D1 terrible and I don't see a situation where you'd bus your partner today, so great self meta but no?

I did it in the game you modded.
It was a terrible thing to do there, but as I said to you, that's my standard scum meta.
Do you think that me bussing in the game you modded was any worse than me bussing here?

Every single scum game I bus my team. I have lynched scum on day 1 as scum 60%+
So yes, that meta is very important if you're trying to use something else to call me scum.

Wait so I'm the most manipulative scum and your proof is that I never considered my scumpartner as scum (shit scum play) and reacted poorly to your push on me? (shit scum play as well)
You can't play the most cunning manipulator card while simultaneously accusing me of being scum because my play is bad scum play.

The reason you are manipulative is because of peoples lack of experience with you. Put any player who has played 15+ games with you in here, and they call you scum here 10/10 times.

-Scylla

[Scylla and Charybdis]

I have bussed way more scumpartners than you have and I wouldn't presume to say that I'm town because I didn't bus in a setup where it's a shitty idea, barring niche cases.
I think there's a massive difference between your partner rando gladiating in a way that makes them an obvious lynch and voting a partner when there's many free lynches.

Why do I feel like you pushing this bus stuff is meant to try to make Brie a more palatable mislynch tomorrow?

You are the one who was using meta for how I play town scum though.
You used meta on me, you lied about meta on me, and you are using the opposite meta to how I play.
You're speaking to the person who day vigged scum as scum just for the town credit. So for you to now back off and basically say meta isn't important after you tried to call me scum for it...

If GL and King pull their fingers out and lynch you, we are lynching Brie tomorrow without question.
If they don't then it's over anyway so really doesn't matter.

-Scylla