Open 712: Elemental Large (Mafia win)

[Creature]

You say A50 is a stronger scumread than doom, and yet you're still voting doom?

FoS Taly

NAI

VOTE: TheGoldenParadox

Hi Creature,

I'd just like some clarification here to make sure I get what you are saying with the first post, which then leads to the second.

Does the NAI refer to TGP's post, or to Taly's reads/vote? Because when I read the first by itself, it reads like you are referring to TGP's post.

-Brass

I responded NAI to "Taly voting doom over A50". My TGP vote is unrelated to this response.

[Kopherald]

You say A50 is a stronger scumread than doom, and yet you're still voting doom?

FoS Taly

NAI

VOTE: TheGoldenParadox

Hi Creature,

I'd just like some clarification here to make sure I get what you are saying with the first post, which then leads to the second.

Does the NAI refer to TGP's post, or to Taly's reads/vote? Because when I read the first by itself, it reads like you are referring to TGP's post.

-Brass

I responded NAI to "Taly voting doom over A50". My TGP vote is unrelated to this response.

Okay.

I agree with you on the NAI part, then.

-Brass

[Aneninen]

Catching up.

[Aneninen]

I'm actually appreciating Doomfeathers getting the game started and everyone talking. If we kill him, couldn't we wait for later?

If Doomfeathers is scum, Shadpearl is scum too, I guess.

Please explain this, Pigeonman.

-Brass

I liked neither Doomfeathers's, nor Shadpearl's townreading for something I found scummy.

Let's not forget that there is a SK in this game, so in reality, they both could be scum, but not on the same team.
So if your saying both are scum, I'm assuming your thinking along the lines of, possible team mates, one mafia, and one SK?

I haven't read the Setup thoroughly.
That's a typical Aneninen-tell. I wonder why it's not mentioned on the Wiki yet.

Mmm, my read on you is still unclear.

No surprise. At that time my ISO consisted of 4 posts. What sort of read did you want to gain out of those?

Lalendra's 67 sounded scummy. Gut-read.

Doomfeathers's 75 is a readlist... but it's too detailed compared to it's early-ness.

Creature sounds different to his town-game. I don't know why, but it reminds me of Mastina a bit. (The short-poster one, not the wall one.)

Yeah it's been a whole day and he's been active elsewhere

My self-reminder to wagon this.

The weird thing is, I have been taking the word of others that you were active, but you weren't, I checked a few minutes ago.

Any explanation, Lalendra?

-Brass

What have I missed?

Would lynch either of Creature/doomfeathers right now. The associative tells are unbearably obvious there.
...

Speculative.

[Aneninen]

Okay then.
One of {Creature, doom, A50} is scum. If A50 is town, the other two are probably scum. If A50 is scum, the other two are probably town.
VOTE: Almost50

Weird... I had a kind of similar feeling.

Taly's 148. If both Doomfeathers and Almost50 are town, Taly's scum.

Bah I forgot
UNVOTE:

Not town-ish.

I've decided I don't need a response.
VOTE: TGP
This looks like his scum game to me. I've seen it before.
-Brass

What if Paradox was right?
Answer: Kopherald might be scum with any of those.

Texcat's play is different to her townplay.

VOTE: TheGoldenParadox
This wagon has more momentum than Shadpearl and 139 is still really, really, really, bad.

VOTE: TheGoldenParadox

I know I like nothing in this game but I don't like this either.

[Aneninen]

Too little effort I've taken, I know.

But right now I think any of these players could be scum: Almost50, Shadpearl, Lalendra, Doomfeathers, Texcat, Kopherald, Creature.

[Almost50]

Too little effort I've taken, I know.

But right now I think any of these players could be scum: Almost50, Shadpearl, Lalendra, Doomfeathers, Texcat, Kopherald, Creature.

What if I told you I was Masons with Kopherald (figuratively, of course), would you take my word for it?

[Aneninen]

I don't think so.
Why need I?

[Shadpearl]

Hey Aneninen. Texcat said he'd played a previous game with you as scum (I think?) is that right? Do you see any differences in his play here that might be helpful?

Sorry if this is a bad question. >~>

[Aneninen]

Her gameplay is different here.

I was scum there. She wasn't.

[Kopherald]

I don't think so.
Why need I?

Pro-tip: This is an open game. I'll let you figure this one out from here.

-Brass

[Almost50]

I don't think so.
Why need I?

NVM. I was just trying to help.

[Sando]

I responded NAI to "Taly voting doom over A50". My TGP vote is unrelated to this response.

I still don't get it, are you say it's NAI for Paradox is point the FOS or that it's NAI for Taly to vote Doom over A50?

Taly's 167 strikes me as a massive over-reaction to a poor post, hits me as a very (frustrated) townie reaction but it makes me worry about the reads a bit. It's a good point though that Taly puts Doom+A50 as his top reads and cops a FOS from Paradox in return that attempts to derail without actually dealing with any of the accusations against those 2.

[profii]

Okay then.
One of {Creature, doom, A50} is scum. If A50 is town, the other two are probably scum. If A50 is scum, the other two are probably town.
VOTE: Almost50

There is definitely something not right in this pool of players (and I include TGP in a pool of 4 here) I wonder if TGP is trying to discredit A50 here which would suggest a potential defence on creature, but i dont really want to be voting with Doom, however that could also be bussing.



VOTE: TheGoldenParadox

[Kopherald]

I don't think so.
Why need I?

NVM. I was just trying to help.

Actually, what was the point of a painfully obvious fake claim?

It's so obvious that anyone should have said "No, I wouldn't believe that, because I can read." (Pigeonman, please read the first post of this game.)

-Brass

[Aneninen]

If I ever read the Rules and the Setup, everyone would think I were scum.

But, without shytty jokes:

What if I told you I was Masons with Kopherald (

figuratively, of course

), would you take my word for it?

Even I know there are no Masons here.

[Almost50]

I don't think so.
Why need I?

NVM. I was just trying to help.

Actually, what was the point of a painfully obvious fake claim?

It's so obvious that anyone should have said "No, I wouldn't believe that, because I can read." (Pigeonman, please read the first post of this game.)

-Brass

Why would he even need to read the first page when I said FIGURATIVELY, OF COURSE. Even if someone hadn't read the setup they would have still got the meaning of my post, which is: I am Town and I believe FIRMLY that your slot is too.

[Kopherald]

I don't think so.
Why need I?

NVM. I was just trying to help.

Actually, what was the point of a painfully obvious fake claim?

It's so obvious that anyone should have said "No, I wouldn't believe that, because I can read." (Pigeonman, please read the first post of this game.)

-Brass

Why would he even need to read the first page when I said FIGURATIVELY, OF COURSE. Even if someone hadn't read the setup they would have still got the meaning of my post, which is: I am Town and I believe FIRMLY that your slot is too.

This is why I am not the smart head.

-Brass

[Sando]

Saldon (Potential Scum) - On the Creature wagon.

I'm assuming you mean me? I think the Creature wagon is a good investigative point for us. I'm happy to put my reasoning and actions up against the others on the wagon:

The guy just hates to play Scum and he either lurks it out until lynched/replaced or posts nonsense on intervals and still gets lynched.

Happened in my last game, literally all of that, so yeah lack of engagement gets my juices flowing on Creature.

There's my reasoning, I then was away for 24 hours and Creature turned up and has been playing well outside his scum-meta, hence I moved off. I also provided pretty clear metrics for why I was meta reading him, and followed those metrics.

Yeah it's been a whole day and he's been active elsewhere so I'm voteparking this until/unless something convinces me otherwise.

VOTE: Creature

&

Obviously I am still looking for scum, as it's possible Creature is town and there's another explanation - it's not likely though, based on my previous games with him.

There's a pretty clear difference here in my eyes, although maybe that's because I'm the other person and know my own motivations. Lalendra was convinced he was scum, I was saying lack of engagement = scum. Here's Shadperl though:

VOTE: Creature
I would hate for someone to be forced to play if they didn't want to, hence my vote.

So Shadperl to me is intimating that he both doesn't actually know the meta and is responding to the comment that "Creature HATES playing scum", and is actually concerned about the other persons enjoyment of the game more than he thinks Creature is scum...

Then you've got A50, I think his is well understood, he's still meta-reading Creature as scum in some unfathomable way, and both you and me have put reasoning as to why that's just nutso.

So you've got 4 people on the wagon and I think you have 4 very different reasons:

Sando - Just played a game where he lurked the whole time and was replaced and was scum
Lalendra - Creature hasn't posted so he's DEFINITELY scum, then doesn't unvote until page 7. Also apparently lied about Creature's activity? I think that's what Creature was getting at but I wasn't sure.
Shadperl - Basically plays cute and innocent about the vote
A50 - Goes balls to the walls against Creature even once he breaks his scum-meta

That said Taly, why do A50, Lalendra and me get a "Creature wagon was scummy" but Shadperl doesn't get a mention?

[profii]

I’m going to give almost50 the benefit of the doubt here and say

Maybe he meant “what if I said I’m town blocking kopherald here”


That fits better

Mason in an open.... figuratively or not... ooook

[TheGoldenParadox]

Here what I'm getting is a lot of people jumping on me at once, which seems extremely opportunistic.

[profii]

So you don’t think your post warrants pressure?

[Taly]

Spoiler: Why Lalendra Is A Town-Lean To Me Now

No response to my readslist?

Also, what makes you so confident in Creature being town now?

I didn't feel the need to comment, I did think that the amount of effort you're putting in leads me to believe you are likely town.

I like that you didn't try and alter the message I sent about my read on you. That's a response I haven't gotten in the past 2 pages.

Obviously I disagree with your read on me, but I'm consistently scumread as town so it wasn't surprising and I didn't feel the need to argue. Either my play will change your mind, or it won't. Meh?

I sympathize a lot with this post. Before I returned, I was wagoned in almost all of my games, and I almost always rolled Town in them.

Furthermore, you not arguing shows a focus other than the people who scumread you. I think that's more often town-motivated.

I do agree with your SR of A50 currently, based on them misrepping you and blatant ATE which I don't remember him doing as town.

I'm confident of Creature's towniness because now that he has started posting, this is very much his town game. The fact that A50 continues to push him despite that, while claiming to know his meta, raises alarms.

Actually you know what, fuck it. I'm confident enough to place my vote here for now.

VOTE: Almost50

Could you elaborate on your personal meta-read with Creature? Also, what do you think about

TheGoldenParadox's

149

But yeah... It's nice to see that neither Doomfeathers or Almost50 have looked into the thread since then.

Though, I'm giving Doomfeathers some leeway, he hasn't been online since he last posted yesterday.

Almost50 is actively posting in another game.

I hadn't even gotten to this yet but yeah, that's definitely not a good sign.

I'm not sure how I feel about a DF/A50 scumteam, I need to see more from DF and I'm not comfortable reading into pre-flip associatives.

This is the main reason why I'm feeling Lalendra is Town.

I like that she's weary of pre-flip association tells, and that she's not letting suspicion control her vote.

I can't say the same thing for

TheGoldenParadox

or

Almost50

right now.

~~~~~

Spoiler: Q's To Anenien

Mmm, my read on you is still unclear.

No surprise. At that time my ISO consisted of 4 posts. What sort of read did you want to gain out of those?

It's not about what I want, rather, whether I felt that your response was more scum-motivated or town-motivated.

Since that post, I gave a reinforced read on you in 148

Lalendra's 67 sounded scummy. Gut-read.

Doomfeathers's 75 is a readlist... but it's too detailed compared to it's early-ness.

Creature sounds different to his town-game. I don't know why, but it reminds me of Mastina a bit. (The short-poster one, not the wall one.)

I still don't understand why 1/3 of the playerlist's view of Creature is based on meta.

Okay then.
One of {Creature, doom, A50} is scum. If A50 is town, the other two are probably scum. If A50 is scum, the other two are probably town.
VOTE: Almost50

Weird... I had a kind of similar feeling.

Taly's 148. If both Doomfeathers and Almost50 are town, Taly's scum.

Ewww. Dichotomies.

I've decided I don't need a response.
VOTE: TGP
This looks like his scum game to me. I've seen it before.
-Brass

What if Paradox was right?
Answer: Kopherald might be scum with any of those.

Paradox

is right about what?

1)

If you mean the associations he stated in 139, we can't accurately dignify that without a flip.

2)

If you mean him FoS-ing me because "I'm voting for

Doom

but

Almost50's

my top scumread" - then it's wrong, because neither of them are more scum-sounding to me than the other currently.

Texcat's play is different to her townplay.

Care to elaborate on that?

Too little effort I've taken, I know.

But right now I think any of these players could be scum: Almost50, Shadpearl, Lalendra, Doomfeathers, Texcat, Kopherald, Creature.

So I'm not considered scum to you now.

But would be in the event that my scumread flips town?

Ehhhh... I don't agree with this thought pattern, but I don't know if that's your playstyle.

Too little effort I've taken, I know.

But right now I think any of these players could be scum: Almost50, Shadpearl, Lalendra, Doomfeathers, Texcat, Kopherald, Creature.

What if I told you I was Masons with Kopherald (figuratively, of course), would you take my word for it?

I don't think so.
Why need I?

I know

Anenien

said it was in his self-meta to say that he doesn't read the setup rules.

But I feel it's more of a town-tell for

Anenien

to not know that masons don't exist in this setup.

~~~~~

Spoiler: Reply To Sando

I responded NAI to "Taly voting doom over A50". My TGP vote is unrelated to this response.

I still don't get it, are you say it's NAI for Paradox is point the FOS or that it's NAI for Taly to vote Doom over A50?

Taly's 167 strikes me as a massive over-reaction to a poor post, hits me as a very (frustrated) townie reaction but it makes me worry about the reads a bit.

Creature answers this in 175 I believe. NAI means Not-Alignment-Indicative, right?

Also, I don't think my post to

Almost50

was an overreaction. He misrepped a post, and showed me holes to his argument that I voiced my opinion on.

187

This gives me a decent idea of Sando's perspective of the game, however I do have some general questions:

I'm assuming you mean me? I think the Creature wagon is a good investigative point for us. I'm happy to put my reasoning and actions up against the others on the wagon:

I'm not sure what you're meaning here. You say that Creature is a good person to investigate, but you're discrediting people that were on the wagon.

Since your vote has changed, I'm guessing you're now thinking Creature is playing more like town? Is that based on meta or independent thoughts based on gameplay?

Better question; your vote on Creature was RVS. Did you expect a response to that?

That said Taly, why do A50, Lalendra and me get a "Creature wagon was scummy" but Shadperl doesn't get a mention?

From 128, I stated that I didn't trust the intention of the people on the wagon. I wasn't excluding

Shadpearl

from that.

But, unlike the three of you, my initial gut read on

Shadpearl

was noobtown as I stated in 58, since this game marks their first posts on the site.

While that read has dissipated when I gave him a gut-null in my recent readslist, that's why my read on him was slightly different than what I had on you,

Lalendra

, and

Almost50

.

Here what I'm getting is a lot of people jumping on me at once, which seems extremely opportunistic.

Um... then why don't you respond to the reasons of being voted? Or ask for them?

Better yet, why not reply to my response to you 167 or try to justify your reasons of suspicion, and/or your vote on

Almost50

.

[Sando]

You say that Creature is a good person to investigate, but you're discrediting people that were on the wagon.

What? I'm saying the Creature

WAGON

is a good investigation point, not Creature himself. I'm agreeing with you that we should look at the people on the wagon.

Creature answers this in 175 I believe. NAI means Not-Alignment-Indicative, right?

I'm trying to confirm what Creature is saying is NAI, I posed two possibilities there. "Is it X or is it Y that you find NAI, Creature?"

Since your vote has changed, I'm guessing you're now thinking Creature is playing more like town? Is that based on meta or independent thoughts based on gameplay?

Better question; your vote on Creature was RVS. Did you expect a response to that?

Both meta and independent gameplay, which I think I've made fairly clear. He's well outside his scum-meta, and I think apart from some OMGUS I think he's scumhunting quite well and making good reads. Both of these I outline in my attack on A50.

I expected Creature to either continue to lurk and confirm himself as scum, or become active and participate in the game and I'd move on from the meta read. One of those has come to pass.

But, unlike the three of you, my initial gut read on Shadpearl was noobtown as I stated in 58, since this game marks their first posts on the site.

This seems like you're really desperate to read him noobtown and avoid actually looking at him.

On the Creature wagon. Was not voted by Doomfeathers for the same reason Doomfeathers voted havingfitz. Switched on Almost50 wagon after I discredited the Creature wagon. May have solid reasoning, so this is not a confident read.

Shadpearl was also on the Creature wagon. Shadpearl also switched onto the Almost50 wagon once Creature wagon was over, and has not provided any independent reasoning for any of it. I'd say that by any metric, if you're reading me scumlean based on those two things (and a scumlink I think you're saying with Doom) then Shadpearl is worse on the Creature wagon and A50. Yet you read town-noob?

Shadpearl has posted 4 times, 1 of which was a nothing post, so 3 actual posts. In those he's done two of the things you're saying is scumlean on me, and I'd say he's done them in a worse manner with basically no independent thought...yet you're falling back on noob-town.

[Taly]

You say that Creature is a good person to investigate, but you're discrediting people that were on the wagon.

What? I'm saying the Creature

WAGON

is a good investigation point, not Creature himself. I'm agreeing with you that we should look at the people on the wagon.

Sorry, I misinterpreted that.

Creature answers this in 175 I believe. NAI means Not-Alignment-Indicative, right?

I'm trying to confirm what Creature is saying is NAI, I posed two possibilities there. "Is it X or is it Y that you find NAI, Creature?"

Since your vote has changed, I'm guessing you're now thinking Creature is playing more like town? Is that based on meta or independent thoughts based on gameplay?

Better question; your vote on Creature was RVS. Did you expect a response to that?

Both meta and independent gameplay, which I think I've made fairly clear. He's well outside his scum-meta, and I think apart from some OMGUS I think he's scumhunting quite well and making good reads. Both of these I outline in my attack on A50.

I expected Creature to either continue to lurk and confirm himself as scum, or become active and participate in the game and I'd move on from the meta read.

One of those has come to pass.

What reads are good reads to you?

@ The bold and underlined part; are you meaning that you haven't gauged the reaction you're expecting from

Creature

?

I feel like I'm having trouble following some of your thoughts.

But, unlike the three of you, my initial gut read on Shadpearl was noobtown as I stated in 58, since this game marks their first posts on the site.

This seems like you're really desperate to read him noobtown and avoid actually looking at him.

Did you read my readslist, and my response to your previous post?

No. My gut townread on

Shadpearl

dropped around 50 posts ago.

Also, in my readslist, I showed my uncertainty of my

Shadpearl

read, wondering the motivation of his vote and how he works.

I don't like that I voted Doomfeathers, and yet there's suddenly 3 votes against Almost50 when he tries to discredit my reasons.
(Sando, Shadpearl, and TheGoldenParadox)

I can't stay without any flips yet, but I feel like someone is either bussing, dismantling doomfeathers' wagon, or playing opportunistically here.

I also was suspicious of his vote as well.

I'll look into S

hadpearl's

wagon and an ISO on them in a post or so. I haven't pushed him yet because I've had more attention-grabbing scumreads since then.

On the Creature wagon. Was not voted by Doomfeathers for the same reason Doomfeathers voted havingfitz. Switched on Almost50 wagon after I discredited the Creature wagon. May have solid reasoning, so this is not a confident read.

Shadpearl was also on the Creature wagon. Shadpearl also switched onto the Almost50 wagon once Creature wagon was over, and has not provided any independent reasoning for any of it. I'd say that by any metric, if you're reading me scumlean based on those two things (and a scumlink I think you're saying with Doom) then Shadpearl is worse on the Creature wagon and A50. Yet you read town-noob?

Shadpearl has posted 4 times, 1 of which was a nothing post, so 3 actual posts. In those he's done two of the things you're saying is scumlean on me, and I'd say he's done them in a worse manner with basically no independent thought...

yet you're falling back on noob-town.

Reread my readslist

Do you see

Shadpearl

in the town area?

Furthermore, don't twist the reason I put you as (Potential Scum). .....

Saldon (Potential Scum)

- On the

Creature

wagon.

Was not voted by

Doomfeathers

for the same reason

Doomfeathers

voted

havingfitz

. Switched on

Almost50

wagon after I discredited the

Creature

wagon. May have solid reasoning,

so this is not a confident read

.

Read what's underlined.

1)

I was unsure about

Doomfeathers'

inconsistency in votes in relation to you.

2)

Similar to the read on

Shadpearl

, it's not a solid one.

Even now, my read on you is up in the air at the moment. I replied to you so I can have a better idea of your thought process.

But apparently, I wonder if you and I are misunderstanding each other here.