Open 712: Elemental Large (Mafia win)

[Taly]

Just letting everyone know; both

Almost50 and TheGoldenParadox

are at L-3

Spoiler: Responding To Almost50's 277

277

.... Honestly, I'm not frustrated... just in awe, it's getting to where it's almost funny.

Even if you wanted to; you wouldn't have enough money.

Hun, I can cash it all in the bank right now and I got enough security to keep it lock.

Oh wait, wrong color.

There.

Maybe I'm that bad, or maybe I'm that

good

!

Maybe - in the event you're town, you'll realize how this does not change or help anything.

Maybe - in the event you're scum, you won't realize anything because you're playing to your win condition.

You're not in a position to tell what I do/don't. You're not my WIFE!

...So, all forms of engagement I've tried with you have failed, solely off the principal that you don't care to listen?

I mean, that's what I'm getting here.

*shrug*

The point is to assert I am

too damn certain

of it.

....

Explain this thought process to me as if I were dumb, because I do not see how this is pro-town.

Listen. I've given you what I've got. Either lynch doom, lynch me, or do your own thing.

Sure. Try to be more coherent while

TheGoldenParadox's

wagon grows.

There's this thing we refer to as perception. Some have it and some don't.

True.

But some people use their perception to unify and spot town instead of ignoring them while they push an agenda without solid reasoning.

I didn't ask you to follow me. I asked that you look at us both and place a vote on the one you feel os scummier than the other.

Right now? Nope. I'm fine with my vote.

Though, I love how you transparently handwave dismissed all my questions and anything you COULD have responded to in my last 2 posts.

@Taly; I think that post is null.

Before any potential hammer happens; I want

Jimmy

to post his thoughts.

3)

Your case on

Doomfeathers

is understated. I cannot "follow you" if I don't know why you're pushing someone.

As far as I can tell the case is that Doom was associated (if only in the mind of A50) with Creature, and A50 was scumreading Creature at the time. I see no sign of an independent case on Doom. A50 even started to retract his read on Doom in

Tell me why

Almost50

is a better lynch than

TheGoldenParadox

.

Spoiler: How I'm Currently Reading The Wagons

Official Vote Count 1.4

Almost50 (6)

-

doomfeathers,

Sando,

TheGoldenParadox,

Shadpearl,

Lalendra

,

texcat

TheGoldenParadox (5)

-

JaydragonKing,

Kopherald,

Ausuka,

Creature,

Taly,

profii (As of 291)

Not Voting (1) - JimmyUrineMoneyShot

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Notes: havingfitz is V/LA until March 13[/b]
(expired on 2018-03-19 22:00:00)

Shadpearl actually voted Almost50 after Paradox did. Creature and I were the other votes on Almost50 at the time.

I know, but I was emphasizing my case on

TheGoldenParadox's

vote independently.

It was a two-line FOS. While I agree that Paradox is scummy, aren't you overreacting a bit? It looked like an honest mistake to me.

Mmmm.... Yes and no. I could have changed my tune, I wasn't upset, honestly.

But I took issue with multiple things in that FoS, that I've already stated. Which, on top of quite a few other things I haven't been fond of about

TheGoldenParadox's

play, strengthened my scumread on him progressively.

Questions to Taly about drawing fire: Posting your thoughts makes you easier to read, and thus works toward the Town win condition.

Good. That's the point.

As for getting shot, it doesn't really help anything to survive by playing poorly; scum are going to shoot town anyway. If enough people wear targets, scum won't be able to shoot them all. That's how I see it. Getting shot doesn't mean you lose; your victory is dependent on that of your team, so you can win while dead. If you get killed in the process of winning, that means you're playing well.

I don't care if I'm NKed.

As long as my thoughts and voice are known until the point I can't let them be known anymore, then I played to my win condition.

[Taly]

Why I Am Settling On TheGoldenParadox As D1's Lynch

That's no fun. If Almost50 and I were both at L-1 and you were the last to vote, which of us would you hammer, and why?

The thing is, I'd rather not vote either of you this dayphase. I've become more clear on that.

I think

TheGoldenParadox's

lynch would give a lot more information.

1)

His votes were associative-tells, possibly based on information I placed in the game, since he didn't react to any wagon until after the post where I voted you.

2)

While

Almost50

is doing an extremely poor job putting a case on you, engaging with others, and combating his wagon, I feel like he's doing this purposely. Since I feel there's at least 1 scum already on his wagon, I think he's being bussed, and an easy-out way for the scumteam, and even an SK.

3)

Furthermore,

TheGoldenParadox

has foxposted in other site threads at least 2 times in between each of

Almost50's

posts, and any further on him.

4)

From all of this, I can only deduce that

Almost50's

tunnel on you,

Doomfeathers

, is a positioning tactic.

Something tells me, if

TheGoldenParadox

truly does flip scum, those two are most likely scum together.

But say

Almost50

survives to D2, he's already posted a lot more than

TheGoldenParadox

. Meaning, the town has more information in his posts to dissect and wagon/possibly lynch than if

TheGoldenParadox

were alive.

5)

What would an

Almost50

flip say, if this were the other way around? ...

TheGoldenParadox

is probably scum with him, but... yeah?

Do you see my point?

Post-flip

,

TheGoldenParadox

provides more insight.

(If somehow, he's town, we can sort out Almost50 in D2 if he's alive.)

Pre-flip

,

Almost50

provides more insight.

(If he's lynched now, regardless of alignment, he hasn't given any information for his reads or tunnels. They are pointless unless we rule out a potential scum candidate through lynching.)

They're both my scumreads,

TheGoldenParadox

slightly more scummy than

Almost50

, and I'm happier with my vote in retrospect.

Oh... and if it wasn't explicitly stated yet, I'm getting a more town-lean on you,

Doomfeathers

, if that's the answer you're looking for.

[Almost50]

Is the scum PT available to reference some examples from? I hate vague meta reads, no offence but I’m happy to listen to you if you can beef it up a bit

Mate, he was lynched on DAY ONE! You can go read the game itself if you like, but the Scum PT wouldn't give you much if anything!

[Almost50]

I mean, he linked that game in his 2nd or 3rd post in this thread.

[Aneninen]

What's different from his townplay than here? Am I missing something?

Ask me the same thing later. Creature's posts may or may not change.

So you're thinking Kopherald knows something we don't?

Possible. But, that's mere speculation now.

I didn't realise A50 was so far in the voting counter.

I haven't played many large's, but why is L-4 a big deal?

Because when I commented on we aren't policy lynching, I thought there wasn't many votes on him, but then I saw he had that many votes, even if he was at L-4, he is still closer to a lynch, than no where near.
- Kop

Ummm. let's see where Kopherald's vote sits.

By the way,

but I'm consistently scumread as town

Can you give me a link for that?

I haven't read the Setup thoroughly.
That's a typical Aneninen-tell. I wonder why it's not mentioned on the Wiki yet.

Care to expound? What's the tell?

Eeiiaao.
The more you play with me, the more likely you'll find an example for that. I notoriously forget to check the Setup, the Mod's opening post, etc.

Lalendra misread something. It's been explained.

And what's your read on Lalendra?

How not?

That was about Lalendra unvoting Creature, which I found scummy. Townies usually care less about voting for shytty wagons, vote-parking, etc.

Aren't you supposed to point out how it's likely Paradox is right rather than saying there's a possibility? There's always a possibility anybody is right. And even if he was right wouldn't mean he wasn't scum. That logic just doesn't work. I don't think you're scum, but you're definitely trying my read.

Scum.
VOTE: Doomfeathers

That was about this:

Okay then.
One of {Creature, doom, A50} is scum. If A50 is town, the other two are probably scum. If A50 is scum, the other two are probably town.
VOTE: Almost50

Which was stale as a slice of bread left for two days under the sunlight.
You seem to care about this topic a lot.
Which means, GoldenParadox made a lucky guess here. And I may be wrong about Almost. (No idea about Creature, I have to see what he's doing next.)

That's likely.

My other favorite topic. Texcat's gameplay. I wrote her gameplay was different. That was the answer. If Doomfeathers flips scum, Texcat could be town. Good.

Care to maybe give us a reason why?

Baa, baa black sheep, two instant votes on someone I'm not scumreading right now.

Texcat's play is different to her townplay.

That's likely.

I am calling bullshit on this.

So am I.
Wait, it was my post.
However, see above!

That seems vague and not related to this game

Apparently that’s intentional but i can’t follow you onto doom based on that.
I could go back on my TGP lynch rn and if he flips scum then we can talk about doom as he will have a big case to answer I think

VOTE: TheGoldenParadox

Spoiler:

POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP!

Taly.
How about lynching Doomfeathers?

[Taly]

@Aneninen, Read 300 and 301 and come back to me.

[Aneninen]

Okay, I'll check it, but I don't promise it's happening this evening.
I can see and hear kitty time. Meow, meoooow, meooooooow! (And he's able to do so at 5:30 in the morning, too.)

[Ausuka]

You seem to care about this topic a lot.
Which means, GoldenParadox made a lucky guess here.

This is bad. Really bad. Doomfeathers wasn't even focused on 139. If this is your logic you're better off voting me.

[profii]

Is the scum PT available to reference some examples from? I hate vague meta reads, no offence but I’m happy to listen to you if you can beef it up a bit

Mate, he was lynched on DAY ONE! You can go read the game itself if you like, but the Scum PT wouldn't give you much if anything!

So you’re saying we should lynch doom on your day 1 only meta read?

[Sando]

Taly vs. Sando is totally town vs. town and also pretty exhausting to read.

Reasonably likely, I agree, although I was mostly tying Taly to a scum!Shad and was trying to make clear that I don't consider Taly a decent scumtarget right now, however I shall be watching dem associations.

Not my thoughts exactly. Accusations don't have to be false to be scummy; it's very possible to think a read is scummy without disproving it. I've done it as town. The FOS is NAI (though I still lean Paradox scum for other things).

Disagree.

a) The FOS was based on a misread, or a stretch at the very least, where two people were listed next to each other in the same scumminess colour and they voted "for the wrong one".
b) Not disproving I can buy, but not even disagreeing with the reads I don't buy

Although I will say that it's probably a much better idea to try to improve your scumhunting than to avoid confrontations completely

I know this isn't directed at me, but I tend to be the same boat where I end up in horrendous 1 on 1s and it causes huge issues. It's not about confrontations, it's about not putting all your eggs in the 1 on 1 confrontation basket, it's too easy to manipulate as scum.

[Sando]

So in reality, you're just basing your read of a previous game where you were both scum,

rather than

what he's doing in this game?

Rather than?? It's COMPARED TO. What he's doing in here is what he did in that game.

Are you deliberately misreading this?

Meta read - reading someones play in terms of similarity with previous games with known alignments
Game read - reading someones play based off actions in the current game

You're being asked to confirm that you're purely

meta read

ing RATHER THAN (ie, INSTEAD OF)

game read

ing.

[Almost50]

So you’re saying we should lynch doom on your day 1 only meta read?

I mean, I was HIS SCUM BUDDY, so I was paying attention to every little thing he said. I wanted to tutor him some if I could. After all, it was Newbie game.

Listen, why don't you just drop it for now. The more you defend him the harder it is to lynch him later and the more "misconception" of him being Town in your subconscious is solidified, which will be bad for us down the road EVEN if I flip soon. What you're doing -inadvertently- is discrediting my read and thus my credibility even after I flip, and you are planting the idea that there's no case against doom in the minds of the masses.

Ask yourself this: Do you know me at all? No. Do you know how good/bad my reads are on D1? No, you don't.
So, do you want to sheep me? Absolutely not. But do you really want to discredit me and dismantle my opinion all the way?? I think not.

[Sando]

I think he's being bussed, and an easy-out way for the scumteam, and even an SK.

Wait what?

If A50 is an SK then what motivation would he have to do a "poor job" of defending himself? Who is the possible SK in this that you're referring to?

[Almost50]

@Sando: Your vote is already on me, so I owe you no explanations. I was responding to someone who IS trying to understand. and ALSO happens to have "some" previous experience with my play. Your intervention in not at all welcome.

Also, for some odd reason I thought Gamma Emerald was a player in this game. I really should pay much more attention to the player list.

[Sando]

I think TheGoldenParadox's lynch would give a lot more information.

I 100% disagree with this, and I think you do too.

A50 is giving zero information, I mean just look at 313 for yet more examples.

You're saying TGP is creating associations...why would you want him to stop then? Maybe now that you've posted that it turns into "now that I know that he knows that I know that he knows..." type of game, but he's giving information.

[profii]

So you’re saying we should lynch doom on your day 1 only meta read?

I mean, I was HIS SCUM BUDDY, so I was paying attention to every little thing he said. I wanted to tutor him some if I could. After all, it was Newbie game.

Listen, why don't you just drop it for now. The more you defend him the harder it is to lynch him later and the more "misconception" of him being Town in your subconscious is solidified, which will be bad for us down the road EVEN if I flip soon. What you're doing -inadvertently- is discrediting my read and thus my credibility even after I flip, and you are planting the idea that there's no case against doom in the minds of the masses.

Ask yourself this: Do you know me at all? No. Do you know how good/bad my reads are on D1? No, you don't.
So, do you want to sheep me? Absolutely not. But do you really want to discredit me and dismantle my opinion all the way?? I think not.

I sort of take your point. I have Doom on my scum radar - I’m pretty sure as I said, 1 of you 4 is scum.

I just can’t put my finger on it

I’m guess what I’m asking for is some insider knowledge on his scum game - eg “he likes to push a player who makes a mistake or buddy’s a widely town read player and he is doing that again here”

It would just help give you some credibility in my mind- obviously I want you to find scum, but I just need something substantial from you.

[Creature]

The only thing that "could" motivate him to play would be his scum partners

which only Nachomamma succeeded to make me post even though I wasn't happily doing it.

[Creature]

Read on Creature: You'll see several lurking players in pretty much every game. The difference between a scummy lurker and a townish lurker is content and helpfulness. It took me a while to figure that out.

Uh sure, that's a way to find whether I'm town lurker or scum lurker.

[Creature]

I guess I'm gonna focus on finding townreads for now.

[Creature]

Kopherald first obviously.

[Creature]

Ausuka can be town (for now).

[Creature]

doomfeathers likely town.

[Creature]

Taly is just a "Don't lynch" rn.

[Taly]

I think he's being bussed, and an easy-out way for the scumteam, and even an SK.

Wait what?

If A50 is an SK then what motivation would he have to do a "poor job" of defending himself? Who is the possible SK in this that you're referring to?

No, I'm not meaning

Almost50

is the SK.

I'm stating that I feel an SK would likely vote against

Almost50

right now because I feel the case against

Almost50

by now has been beaten to death a lot. He's been the longest-running wagon so far, and the highest voted wagon up until the past page or so.

(Aside from the early-Creature wagon.)

I don't know who the possible SK could be, and I can be completely wrong about them being on

Almost50's

wagon. But 2/3rds of the playerlist are on either wagon at this point, and the other 1/3 have been either VLA, inactive, or switching on non-prevalent wagons.

I think it's less likely an SK would be in a minority vote, or not voting at all right now.

However, as it stands, the reads of the people I have on

TheGoldenParadox

are more town-leaning than on

Almost50

.

I think TheGoldenParadox's lynch would give a lot more information.

I 100% disagree with this, and I think you do too.

A50 is giving zero information, I mean just look at 313 for yet more examples.

You're saying TGP is creating associations...why would you want him to stop then? Maybe now that you've posted that it turns into "now that I know that he knows that I know that he knows..." type of game, but he's giving information.

Because

TheGoldenParadox

has not engaged in the game like

Almost50

has. He's posted in other threads, and his minimal posts have either came across to me as artificial or apathetic.

Between these two, I feel like in a scum-scum or even scum-town scenario,

Almost50

would be an obvious lynch to go through with. Partially because I have a strong scumread on

TheGoldenParadox

, and that's where his vote has been for half of the dayphase so far.

Also, I think

Almost50

is baiting himself with the

Doom V Him

dichotomy.

[Creature]

Oh right, Lalendra is town too.