Open 712: Elemental Large (Mafia win)

[Almost50]

why would you want to narrow a D1 wagon and/or lynch with yourself as a candidate?

Regardless of alignment, nobody really wants to get lynched (this an open setup and we are guaranteed there are no Jesters, no Vengeful Townies .. etc.), so it follows when somebody (me) says they want to be pitted against C it means they are 100% X is scum.

[Taly]

why would you want to narrow a D1 wagon and/or lynch with yourself as a candidate?

Regardless of alignment, nobody really wants to get lynched (this an open setup and we are guaranteed there are no Jesters, no Vengeful Townies .. etc.), so it follows when somebody (me) says they want to be pitted against C it means they are 100% X is scum.

Yeah... I don't buy this

at all

.

1)

How, as Town, would you have 100% certainty of someone's alignment? That tunnel-vision is much more dangerous than you think.

2)

Nobody should willingly be lynched; but what's the purpose of stating that here? Are you looking to be a martyr for your case against

Doomfeathers

?

If you're truly town and doing this, don't. Because you can't be this certain without more information that isn't generated in D1. (Because no flips,
therefore, minimal analysis and theories on someone's alignment.)

This is why dichotomies, mostly early-game, usually serve to divide the playerlist later in the game and makes scumhunting difficult.

3)

Your case on

Doomfeathers

is understated. I cannot "follow you" if I don't know why you're pushing someone.

[Almost50]

why would you want to narrow a D1 wagon and/or lynch with yourself as a candidate?

Regardless of alignment, nobody really wants to get lynched (this an open setup and we are guaranteed there are no Jesters, no Vengeful Townies .. etc.), so it follows when somebody (me) says they want to be pitted against C it means they are 100% X is scum.

Yeah... I don't buy this

at all

.

Even if you wanted to; you wouldn't have enough money.

1)

How, as Town, would you have 100% certainty of someone's alignment? That tunnel-vision is much more dangerous than you think.

Maybe I'm that bad, or maybe I'm that

good

!

2)

Nobody should willingly be lynched; but what's the purpose of stating that here? Are you looking to be a martyr for your case against

Doomfeathers

?

The point is to assert I am

too damn certain

of it.

If you're truly town and doing this, don't.

You're not in a position to tell what I do/don't. You're not my WIFE!

Because you can't be this certain without more information that isn't generated in D1. (Because no flips,
therefore, minimal analysis and theories on someone's alignment.)

There's this thing we refer to as

perception

. Some have it and some don't.

This is why dichotomies, mostly early-game, usually serve to divide the playerlist later in the game and makes scumhunting difficult.

Listen. I've given you what I've got. Either lynch doom, lynch me, or do your own thing.

3)

Your case on

Doomfeathers

is understated. I cannot "follow you" if I don't know why you're pushing someone.

I didn't ask you to follow me. I asked that you look at us both and place a vote on the one you feel os scummier than the other.

[Ausuka]

@Taly; I think that post is null.

[texcat]

3)

Your case on

Doomfeathers

is understated. I cannot "follow you" if I don't know why you're pushing someone.

As far as I can tell the case is that Doom was associated (if only in the mind of A50) with Creature, and A50 was scumreading Creature at the time. I see no sign of an independent case on Doom. A50 even started to retract his read on Doom in

Your attempt to switch attention to doom now makes me thin doom IS being a bad townie here. You're going down next after Creature flips red.

And yet now A50 has switched his attention to Doom, so much so that he wants to go mano a mano with him. Something stinks here.

VOTE: Almost50

[davesaz]

Official Vote Count 1.4

Almost50 (6) - doomfeathers, Sando, TheGoldenParadox, Shadpearl, Lalendra, texcat
TheGoldenParadox (5) - JaydragonKing, Kopherald, Ausuka, Creature, Taly
Shadpearl (2) - havingfitz, Aneninen
doomfeathers (1) - Almost50
Lalendra (1) - profii

Not Voting (1) - JimmyUrineMoneyShot

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Notes: havingfitz is V/LA until March 13

(expired on 2018-03-19 22:00:00)

[Kopherald]

3)

Your case on

Doomfeathers

is understated. I cannot "follow you" if I don't know why you're pushing someone.

As far as I can tell the case is that Doom was associated (if only in the mind of A50) with Creature, and A50 was scumreading Creature at the time. I see no sign of an independent case on Doom. A50 even started to retract his read on Doom in

Your attempt to switch attention to doom now makes me thin doom IS being a bad townie here. You're going down next after Creature flips red.

And yet now A50 has switched his attention to Doom, so much so that he wants to go mano a mano with him. Something stinks here.

VOTE: Almost50

That's actually a good spot.

- Kop

[doomfeathers]

[to Paradox]

4)

Right after my post in voting

Doomfeathers

, you jumped on

Almost50's

wagon without anything but associative-speculation. 139
- By doing this, you detract from my reads and information. You're also distancing yourself by going on another wagon that others have followed on. 133 and 142

Shadpearl actually voted Almost50 after Paradox did. Creature and I were the other votes on Almost50 at the time.

5)

If you agree with

Almost50

being scum, why are you trying to incriminate me by misconstruing my reads?

It was a two-line FOS. While I agree that Paradox is scummy, aren't you overreacting a bit? It looked like an honest mistake to me.

For reference:

You say A50 is a stronger scumread than doom, and yet you're still voting doom?

FoS Taly

Almost50

is actively posting in another game.

[insert sarcastic exclamations of shock]

[doomfeathers]

No response to my readslist?

I didn't feel the need to comment, I did think that the amount of effort you're putting in leads me to believe you are likely town. Obviously I disagree with your read on me, but I'm consistently scumread as town so it wasn't surprising and I didn't feel the need to argue. Either my play will change your mind, or it won't. Meh?

This is arguably more likely to come from town than from scum. +townpoints for Lalendra.

I responded NAI to "Taly voting doom over A50". My TGP vote is unrelated to this response.

Thanks for the clarification; I misunderstood that at first glance as well.

Let's not forget that there is a SK in this game, so in reality, they both could be scum, but not on the same team.
So if your saying both are scum, I'm assuming your thinking along the lines of, possible team mates, one mafia, and one SK?

I haven't read the Setup thoroughly.
That's a typical Aneninen-tell. I wonder why it's not mentioned on the Wiki yet.

Care to expound? What's the tell?

Yeah it's been a whole day and he's been active elsewhere

My self-reminder to wagon this.

The weird thing is, I have been taking the word of others that you were active, but you weren't, I checked a few minutes ago.

Any explanation, Lalendra?

-Brass

What have I missed?

Lalendra misread something. It's been explained.

Bah I forgot
UNVOTE:

Not town-ish.

How not?

I've decided I don't need a response.
VOTE: TGP
This looks like his scum game to me. I've seen it before.
-Brass

What if Paradox was right?
Answer: Kopherald might be scum with any of those.

Aren't you supposed to point out how it's likely Paradox is right rather than saying there's a possibility? There's always a possibility anybody is right. And even if he was right wouldn't mean he wasn't scum. That logic just doesn't work. I don't think you're scum, but you're definitely trying my read.

Texcat's play is different to her townplay.

That's likely.

VOTE: TheGoldenParadox
This wagon has more momentum than Shadpearl and 139 is still really, really, really, bad.

VOTE: TheGoldenParadox

I know I like nothing in this game but I don't like this either.

Care to maybe give us a reason why?

[doomfeathers]

Too little effort I've taken, I know.

But right now I think any of these players could be scum: Almost50, Shadpearl, Lalendra, Doomfeathers, Texcat, Kopherald, Creature.

What if I told you I was Masons with Kopherald (figuratively, of course), would you take my word for it?

Out of curiosity, what the are you talking about?

Sorry if this is a bad question. >~>

It was an excellent question, but why are you asking whether it's good? Are you worried about stepping on someone's toes or something? Caution ill-befits a townie.

Taly's 167 strikes me as a massive over-reaction to a poor post, hits me as a very (frustrated) townie reaction but it makes me worry about the reads a bit.

My thoughts exactly. I think Sando's town.

It's a good point though that Taly puts Doom+A50 as his top reads and cops a FOS from Paradox in return that attempts to derail without actually dealing with any of the accusations against those 2.

Not my thoughts exactly. Accusations don't have to be false to be scummy; it's very possible to think a read is scummy without disproving it. I've done it as town. The FOS is NAI (though I still lean Paradox scum for other things).

I don't think so.
Why need I?

NVM. I was just trying to help.

Actually, what was the point of a painfully obvious fake claim?

It's so obvious that anyone should have said "No, I wouldn't believe that, because I can read." (Pigeonman, please read the first post of this game.)

-Brass

Why would he even need to read the first page when I said FIGURATIVELY, OF COURSE. Even if someone hadn't read the setup they would have still got the meaning of my post, which is: I am Town and I believe FIRMLY that your slot is too.

Oh, so that's what that meant. Thanks for the explanation. You kind of picked a roundabout way of saying it, though, especially since your metaphor implies Kopherald trusting you not to be scum.

[doomfeathers]

Reading post 193, Sando is town. That is all.

(Though I still disagree with you on Lalendra, partially because I think she actually misread rather than lying. Also I give Shadpearl a town lean.)

2)

If you mean him FoS-ing me because "I'm voting for

Doom

but

Almost50's

my top scumread" - then it's wrong, because neither of them are more scum-sounding to me than the other currently.

That's no fun. If Almost50 and I were both at L-1 and you were the last to vote, which of us would you hammer, and why?

[texcat]

Texcat's play is different to her townplay.

That's likely.

I am calling bullshit on this.

[profii]

hang on, can Almost summarise his case on Doom right now, initially in 113 he said it was based on clear associatives between doom/creature, however in 260 he says creature can be town for now.

I'm a bit lost, so if Almost50 could just go over why Creature is now town and why his doom case still stands, it would help me greatly.

[doomfeathers]

Taly vs. Sando is totally town vs. town and also pretty exhausting to read.

Based on my re-review, I'm actually losing townreads.

You've still got mine.

I need some inspiration to play this game.

There are way too many scummy players.

i'm lurking here b/c i'm not enjoying this game at all and i'm quickly losing motivation to play.

Do you want some gifs to cheer you up or something?

Shadpearl wallposts in 215. Good. I think he'll be an asset to the game. This post scores townpoints.

Analysis and responses:

Explanation of play: Townie if newbie, scummy otherwise. (And I think he counts for newbie for the purposes of this site.)

Read on Creature: You'll see several lurking players in pretty much every game. The difference between a scummy lurker and a townish lurker is content and helpfulness. It took me a while to figure that out.

"The first round isn't supposed to last ages so sure! Good enough for me!": Normally I'd disagree, but this is starting to drag on. If enough players lose interest, I think we should hammer someone and get the game going again. Disinterested players are VERY hard to tell from scum.

Questions to Taly about drawing fire: Posting your thoughts makes you easier to read, and thus works toward the Town win condition. As for getting shot, it doesn't really help anything to survive by playing poorly; scum are going to shoot town anyway. If enough people wear targets, scum won't be able to shoot them all. That's how I see it. Getting shot doesn't mean you lose; your victory is dependent on that of your team, so you can win while dead. If you get killed in the process of winning, that means you're playing well.

"Going with the flow": Don't bother. Scum determine the flow as often as not. Choose your own path and see who else is on it.

On me: That's fine, no problem. Got reads on me? (If you have posted them and I haven't found them yet, that counts.)

Pedit @texcat: So are you just not engaged or are you one of those cowardly slackers who skips the first round or two?

Going for lunch. Caught up to 216.

[Almost50]

hang on, can Almost summarise his case on Doom right now, initially in 113 he said it was based on clear associatives between doom/creature, however in 260 he says creature can be town for now.

I'm a bit lost, so if Almost50 could just go over why Creature is now town and why his doom case still stands, it would help me greatly.

I feel like this is Scum!doom that I was partnered with before.

Creature did a few things I'm not familiar of him doing as Scum (no need to elaborate here).

In short, I did a reread of the game and came up with a revamped read list (that I would still consider it anti-town to share in full), and doom happens to be the strongest SR on it.

[Kopherald]

hang on, can Almost summarise his case on Doom right now, initially in 113 he said it was based on clear associatives between doom/creature, however in 260 he says creature can be town for now.

I'm a bit lost, so if Almost50 could just go over why Creature is now town and why his doom case still stands, it would help me greatly.

I feel like this is Scum!doom that I was partnered with before.

Creature did a few things I'm not familiar of him doing as Scum (no need to elaborate here).

In short, I did a reread of the game and came up with a revamped read list (that I would still consider it anti-town to share in full), and doom happens to be the strongest SR on it.

So in reality, you're just basing your read of a previous game where you were both scum, rather than what he's doing in this game?

- Kop

[profii]

That seems vague and not related to this game

Apparently that’s intentional but i can’t follow you onto doom based on that.
I could go back on my TGP lynch rn and if he flips scum then we can talk about doom as he will have a big case to answer I think

VOTE: TheGoldenParadox

[Ausuka]

Extra-Special Townbloc of Happy Friends

Ausuka, Creature

Candidates For Promotion

Lalendra, Aneninen, havingfitz, Kopherald, Taly

Watchlist For Meaniness

Sando, Almost50, JayDragonKing, doomfeathers, texcat, blockcandy, TheGoldenParadox

Wanted for Bullying and General Sad Crimes

profii, Shadpearl

but the vote on Paradox stays until he stops complaining about the game and starts doing actual things, like explaining 139.

Is anyone here?

I can see how I’ve ended up in that pile on your observation that the Lal mistake might be too obvious. I’d have to think it through a bit more but I had it in my mind that it was something if no one checked between the post and Creature coming back it might be incontestable

But you have a point it might have been too obvious

Nah, that's not scummy. Mostly I just gutread you as scum, it feels like you're being too appeasing.

[Ausuka]

Official Vote Count 1.4

Almost50 (6) - doomfeathers, Sando, TheGoldenParadox, Shadpearl, Lalendra, texcat
TheGoldenParadox (5) - JaydragonKing,

Kopherald, Ausuka, Creature, Taly

Shadpearl (2) - havingfitz, Aneninen
doomfeathers (1) - Almost50
Lalendra (1) - profii

Not Voting (1) - JimmyUrineMoneyShot

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Notes: havingfitz is V/LA until March 13

(expired on 2018-03-19 22:00:00)

I like 4/5 players on the Paradox wagon (counting myself) and it makes me feel better about A50. There are scum on his wagon, probably multiple.

[profii]

Extra-Special Townbloc of Happy Friends

Ausuka, Creature

Candidates For Promotion

Lalendra, Aneninen, havingfitz, Kopherald, Taly

Watchlist For Meaniness

Sando, Almost50, JayDragonKing, doomfeathers, texcat, blockcandy, TheGoldenParadox

Wanted for Bullying and General Sad Crimes

profii, Shadpearl

but the vote on Paradox stays until he stops complaining about the game and starts doing actual things, like explaining 139.

Is anyone here?

I can see how I’ve ended up in that pile on your observation that the Lal mistake might be too obvious. I’d have to think it through a bit more but I had it in my mind that it was something if no one checked between the post and Creature coming back it might be incontestable

But you have a point it might have been too obvious

Nah, that's not scummy. Mostly I just gutread you as scum, it feels like you're being too appeasing.

im working on not getting into 1v1s - they keep ending up being TvT so figures but I’ll move on...

[Ausuka]

The longer Paradox takes to explain 139 the more I scumread him.

[Ausuka]

Extra-Special Townbloc of Happy Friends

Ausuka, Creature

Candidates For Promotion

Lalendra, Aneninen, havingfitz, Kopherald, Taly

Watchlist For Meaniness

Sando, Almost50, JayDragonKing, doomfeathers, texcat, blockcandy, TheGoldenParadox

Wanted for Bullying and General Sad Crimes

profii, Shadpearl

but the vote on Paradox stays until he stops complaining about the game and starts doing actual things, like explaining 139.

Is anyone here?

I can see how I’ve ended up in that pile on your observation that the Lal mistake might be too obvious. I’d have to think it through a bit more but I had it in my mind that it was something if no one checked between the post and Creature coming back it might be incontestable

But you have a point it might have been too obvious

Nah, that's not scummy. Mostly I just gutread you as scum, it feels like you're being too appeasing.

im working on not getting into 1v1s - they keep ending up being TvT so figures but I’ll move on...

Okay I guess that makes sense? Although I will say that it's probably a much better idea to try to improve your scumhunting than to avoid confrontations completely

[profii]

My lack of brain cells does not help with that agenda but yes that is a work in progress too :p

[Almost50]

So in reality, you're just basing your read of a previous game where you were both scum,

rather than

what he's doing in this game?

Rather than?? It's COMPARED TO. What he's doing in here is what he did in that game.

[profii]

Is the scum PT available to reference some examples from? I hate vague meta reads, no offence but I’m happy to listen to you if you can beef it up a bit